A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:41 am

Ertro wrote:

I believe any system currently in place is based on ECJ having jurisdiction over it. After UK refuses to allow any EU meddling in "UK sovereignty" those are not going to work any more.


Correct Single Market trade will be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, third country trade is under the negotiated arbitration within the international treaty, most likely most have some sort of independent arrangement with the WTO

Ertro wrote:
I am not talking about what happens in NI only but in the whole UK including exports into France from south coast UK.


I was under the impression the frictionless border was only applicable to NI, im sure I read a story a while ago the France had started to build custom control points


Ertro wrote:
There is no way some official is going to travel to every factory for every outgoing shipment as that must be hugely expensive and timeconsuming but it must be some employee from the site doing the inspections. Those people might wery well want to skirt the rules to allow the factory to make a fortune to put money in everybodys pocket shipping goods that are noncompliant to EU rules.


The risk is no different from a any third country, pre inspection is usually done via an EU accredited third party inspection provider.

Ertro wrote:
Are you sure there are no dodgy businessmen in south coast UK wanting to make big money?


There are dodgy businessmen everywhere the UK doesn't hold a monopoly on those


Ertro wrote:
The whole UK seems it does not want to follow EU regulations and does not seem to mind very much risking its long term trade with EU with possible "No deal".


No one wants to lose trade per say, we are just not prepared to enter into a bad deal to maintain it
 
Ertro
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:56 am

A101 wrote:
I was under the impression the frictionless border was only applicable to NI, im sure I read a story a while ago the France had started to build custom control points


UK has 20 different factions each pushing for 20 different partial solutions. Nobody knows what UK wants as a whole as UK seems to be unable to consolidate those to any workable system as a whole.

EU is not going to accept any mishmash of 30 different schemes.

A101 wrote:
The risk is no different from a any third country, pre inspection is usually done via an EU accredited third party inspection provider.
There are dodgy businessmen everywhere the UK doesn't hold a monopoly on those


As you see from my example from Canada, EU can be sure that Canadian courts are going to put those in jail and if they don't then EU is going to close all shipments from Canada if Canada does not solve the problem and so they will. EU trusts but it also can make things happen.

For UK if some dodgy businessman makes a fortune exporting cucumbers that are too curvy (Not a true EU rule, but lets use that as an example in here) what is going to happen that The Sun and Daily Fail are going to write articles praising these lads of going against the stupid EU and there is going to be a parade in their home town to celebrate them and PM of UK Nigel Farage is going to invite them to get knighted by the Queen while the crowds are going to sing "Suck up EU, there is nothing you can do as you suckers agreed to our unworkable system".

EU can see that future and is not going to fall for it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:21 am

A101 wrote:
I was under the impression the frictionless border was only applicable to NI, im sure I read a story a while ago the France had started to build custom control points


You still don't get it. Any outside EU border with a 3rd country will be treated the same, unless the 3rd country in question has made a different deal. You don't want that, you want a status like Belarus within the EU.

Of course, France is preparing for a no deal Brexit, so is the Netherlands, so is any other EU country. The EU is actually prepared to do a no deal Brexit, the UK politics only don't want to rule it out as a negotiation strategy, which has been so obviously flawed from the very first moment: no preparations to do it actually and will be disastrous. But as everyone has been telling you from the beginning, the UK is the underdog here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:44 am

Ertro wrote:

UK has 20 different factions each pushing for 20 different partial solutions. Nobody knows what UK wants as a whole as UK seems to be unable to consolidate those to any workable system as a whole.


You can thank TM for that by refusing to solidify her agreement before signing then presenting to parliament, the factions within parliament by law cannot make or amend treaties. Government must lay most treaties before Parliament for 21 sitting days before it can ratify them, and the Commons can block ratification indefinitely.

Ertro wrote:
EU is not going to accept any mishmash of 30 different schemes.


That's why its imperative to sort out the future relationship


Ertro wrote:
As you see from my example from Canada, EU can be sure that Canadian courts are going to put those in jail and if they don't then EU is going to close all shipments from Canada if Canada does not solve the problem and so they will. EU trusts but it also can make things happen.


The UK can also legislate penalties just the same as any third country

Ertro wrote:
For UK if some dodgy businessman makes a fortune exporting cucumbers that are too curvy (Not a true EU rule, but lets use that as an example in here) what is going to happen that The Sun and Daily Fail are going to write articles praising these lads of going against the stupid EU and there is going to be a parade in their home town to celebrate them and PM of UK Nigel Farage is going to invite them to get knighted by the Queen while the crowds are going to sing "Suck up EU, there is nothing you can do as you suckers agreed to our unworkable system".

EU can see that future and is not going to fall for it.


What most likely to happen is what JJJ said in post #15 in the "EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement" thread
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:03 am

Dutchy wrote:

You still don't get it. Any outside EU border with a 3rd country will be treated the same, unless the 3rd country in question has made a different deal. You don't want that, you want a status like Belarus within the EU.



So are you admitting the WA is a con job in respects to the negotiations for the future agreement, the EU negotiations team weren't joking about the UK become the first colony they were serious mmmm :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
 
sbworcs
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:04 am

GIven that the UK parliament has already rejected no deal (albeit not legally binding) how is the next PM going to make sure that Parliament has no furhter say.

Only options (as far as I can think of) are to either Prorogue parliament or to table no bills that are then amendable.

Both of which would be incredibly anti demoactic - so how are they going to do it?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:15 am

sbworcs wrote:
GIven that the UK parliament has already rejected no deal (albeit not legally binding) how is the next PM going to make sure that Parliament has no furhter say.

Only options (as far as I can think of) are to either Prorogue parliament or to table no bills that are then amendable.

Both of which would be incredibly anti demoactic - so how are they going to do it?


Well since we don't know who the next PM will officially be, I cant claim to know what they are going to do, TM surprised me and most people with her tactics . so like everyone else I'll wait and see what transpires
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:39 am

A101 wrote:
Ertro wrote:
Are you sure there are no dodgy businessmen in south coast UK wanting to make big money?


There are dodgy businessmen everywhere the UK doesn't hold a monopoly on those [/quote

Thus also in NI and thus one cannot just rely on IT and paper control solutions. It's strange that you argue that NI would not jeopardize a possible frictionless border whilst at the same time mentioning that there will be dodgy businesspersons in NI. Or do you really believe that NI will be able to track down all dodgy businesspersons before they can export to the EU? Moreover, the EU should believe this?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:08 am

Anyway, the EU has no reason to think that the UK will play by the rules as already while in the Eu they let the fraud going on:

A letter of formal notice

EU budget: Commission urges UNITED KINGDOM to make customs duties available to the EU budget

Today, the European Commission decided to send a letter of formal notice to the United Kingdom because it refuses to make customs duties available to the EU budget, as required by EU law. A 2017 OLAF report found that importers in the United Kingdom evaded a large amount of customs duties by using fictitious and false invoices and incorrect customs value declarations at importation. Further Commission inspections brought to light a dramatic increase of the scale of that undervaluation fraud scheme operating through the hub in the United Kingdom between 2011 and 2017. Despite having been informed of the risks of fraud relating to the importation of textiles and footwear originating in the People's Republic of China since 2007, and despite having been asked to take appropriate risk control measures, the United Kingdom failed to take action to prevent the fraud. The Commission calculates that the infringement of EU legislation by the United Kingdom resulted in losses to the EU budget amounting to EUR 2,7 billion (minus collection costs) during the period November 2011 until December 2017. In addition, the United Kingdom also infringed EU Value Added Tax legislation, leading to potential losses to the EU budget. The United Kingdom is liable for the financial consequences of its infringements of EU legislation.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:58 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You still don't get it. Any outside EU border with a 3rd country will be treated the same, unless the 3rd country in question has made a different deal. You don't want that, you want a status like Belarus within the EU.



So are you admitting the WA is a con job in respects to the negotiations for the future agreement, the EU negotiations team weren't joking about the UK become the first colony they were serious mmmm :scratchchin: :scratchchin:

That is the automatic and inevitable outcome of the stupid Brexit idea, not something that anyone was doing to the UK from the outside – your own politicians and voters are doing that to the UK by throwing away the UK's seat at the table!

Proximity matters in international economic relations, and so does sheer mass. And as a smaller country next to a much larger union of countries the UK simply has not much of a choice other than to conform to most of the rules set by the EU. Just after Brexit without the UK having any say in those. And since the UK economy has been mostly destroyed by Thatcher and her successors in favour of a dangerous specialization particularly on financial services that dependency on and need for access to the EU is even more pronounced.

Leavers like you desperately try to spin that as some evil conspiracy by those dastardly europeans, but if it actually is a conspiracy at all, it's one you yourselves have been perpetrating against your own country's interests!

The EU27 merely take care of our own interests without any malice towards the UK – what is happening is just what you are doing to yourselves, so stop whining, grow up and at long last take responsibility for your own decisions!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:07 pm

Olddog wrote:
Anyway, the EU has no reason to think that the UK will play by the rules as already while in the Eu they let the fraud going on:

A letter of formal notice

EU budget: Commission urges UNITED KINGDOM to make customs duties available to the EU budget

Today, the European Commission decided to send a letter of formal notice to the United Kingdom because it refuses to make customs duties available to the EU budget, as required by EU law. A 2017 OLAF report found that importers in the United Kingdom evaded a large amount of customs duties by using fictitious and false invoices and incorrect customs value declarations at importation. Further Commission inspections brought to light a dramatic increase of the scale of that undervaluation fraud scheme operating through the hub in the United Kingdom between 2011 and 2017. Despite having been informed of the risks of fraud relating to the importation of textiles and footwear originating in the People's Republic of China since 2007, and despite having been asked to take appropriate risk control measures, the United Kingdom failed to take action to prevent the fraud. The Commission calculates that the infringement of EU legislation by the United Kingdom resulted in losses to the EU budget amounting to EUR 2,7 billion (minus collection costs) during the period November 2011 until December 2017. In addition, the United Kingdom also infringed EU Value Added Tax legislation, leading to potential losses to the EU budget. The United Kingdom is liable for the financial consequences of its infringements of EU legislation.



And it’s not isolated to the UK, I imagine if I go looking further you will find it occurs more frequently than not.


A letter of formal notice
EU budget: Commission urges BELGIUM to make customs duties available to the EU budget
Today, the European Commission decided to send a letter of formal notice to Belgium because of its failure to make customs duties available to the EU budget, as required by EU law. This follows an European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) investigation which found that importers into Belgium mislabelled certain imports, thus paying lower duties than they would have paid had they labelled the product correctly. As a result, a total of €543,000 (minus collection costs) were lost to the EU budget. The Commission is starting the infringement procedure because it considers that the actions of the Belgian authorities are not in line with the Community Customs Code. In addition, the Belgian authorities did not take all the requisite measures to recover the own resources lost. If Belgium does not make the requested amount available to the EU budget, or does not provide a satisfactory reply, the Commission could take the next step in an infringement procedure and issue a reasoned opinion.


 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:15 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You still don't get it. Any outside EU border with a 3rd country will be treated the same, unless the 3rd country in question has made a different deal. You don't want that, you want a status like Belarus within the EU.



So are you admitting the WA is a con job in respects to the negotiations for the future agreement, the EU negotiations team weren't joking about the UK become the first colony they were serious mmmm :scratchchin: :scratchchin:

That is the automatic and inevitable outcome of the stupid Brexit idea, not something that anyone was doing to the UK from the outside – your own politicians and voters are doing that to the UK by throwing away the UK's seat at the table!

Proximity matters in international economic relations, and so does sheer mass. And as a smaller country next to a much larger union of countries the UK simply has not much of a choice other than to conform to most of the rules set by the EU. Just after Brexit without the UK having any say in those. And since the UK economy has been mostly destroyed by Thatcher and her successors in favour of a dangerous specialization particularly on financial services that dependency on and need for access to the EU is even more pronounced.

Leavers like you desperately try to spin that as some evil conspiracy by those dastardly europeans, but if it actually is a conspiracy at all, it's one you yourselves have been perpetrating against your own country's interests!

The EU27 merely take care of our own interests without any malice towards the UK – what is happening is just what you are doing to yourselves, so stop whining, grow up and at long last take responsibility for your own decisions!



Just another typical rant by someone who cannot reconcile the fact the the UK choose to leave their precious union :rotfl:
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:17 pm

A101 wrote:
Just another typical rant by someone who cannot reconcile the fact the the UK choose to leave their precious union :rotfl:

I see that you're unable to deal with the actual content.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:51 pm

A101 wrote:
What most likely to happen is what JJJ said in post #15 in the "EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement" thread


In other words: an actual border.

The UK should be upfront to their Irish citizens and tell them what's coming.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:27 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Just another typical rant by someone who cannot reconcile the fact the the UK choose to leave their precious union :rotfl:

I see that you're unable to deal with the actual content.


No just could not be bothered to answer it line by line, because it’s like ground hog day you have made similar posts in the past it’s just another variation of the same ol same ol
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:41 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
What most likely to happen is what JJJ said in post #15 in the "EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement" thread


In other words: an actual border.

The UK should be upfront to their Irish citizens and tell them what's coming.


Don’t need too as the UK said no to a hard border even on no deal under TM, but will have to wait what the new PM position on the matter is. Besides nothing going to be built before October anyway on the UK side atleast, I haven’t heard if the ROI have started building a customs check point on the border either only in the port of Dublin
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:09 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
What most likely to happen is what JJJ said in post #15 in the "EU and Mercosur Reach Free Trade Agreement" thread


In other words: an actual border.

The UK should be upfront to their Irish citizens and tell them what's coming.


Don’t need too as the UK said no to a hard border even on no deal under TM, but will have to wait what the new PM position on the matter is. Besides nothing going to be built before October anyway on the UK side atleast, I haven’t heard if the ROI have started building a customs check point on the border either only in the port of Dublin


Hard or soft are just buzzwords for political talk.

Fact is, there will be a border unless there's a significant change from the UK position.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:13 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

In other words: an actual border.

The UK should be upfront to their Irish citizens and tell them what's coming.


Don’t need too as the UK said no to a hard border even on no deal under TM, but will have to wait what the new PM position on the matter is. Besides nothing going to be built before October anyway on the UK side atleast, I haven’t heard if the ROI have started building a customs check point on the border either only in the port of Dublin


Hard or soft are just buzzwords for political talk.

Fact is, there will be a border unless there's a significant change from the UK position.



Fact is there already is a border And those transactions are done electronically
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:50 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You still don't get it. Any outside EU border with a 3rd country will be treated the same, unless the 3rd country in question has made a different deal. You don't want that, you want a status like Belarus within the EU.



So are you admitting the WA is a con job in respects to the negotiations for the future agreement, the EU negotiations team weren't joking about the UK become the first colony they were serious mmmm :scratchchin: :scratchchin:


The EU wants the UK to honor its commitments, the horror I know, that want the Good Friday Agreement to be honored and the troubles not returned. And given the recent poll that the Conservative Party members find it more important to have a Brexit than have Northern Ireland in the UK, perhaps that should be the solution, the Republic of Northern Ireland within the EU and the UK out with the WA minus the backstop, deal?
And you should argue that Northern Ireland would have become a colony, not the UK perse.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:46 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

Don’t need too as the UK said no to a hard border even on no deal under TM, but will have to wait what the new PM position on the matter is. Besides nothing going to be built before October anyway on the UK side atleast, I haven’t heard if the ROI have started building a customs check point on the border either only in the port of Dublin


Hard or soft are just buzzwords for political talk.

Fact is, there will be a border unless there's a significant change from the UK position.



Fact is there already is a border And those transactions are done electronically


Because both UK and RoI are in the common market and have freedom of movement of people. There are rules and mutual commitments to ensure there is no border.

Things change now. The UK has been extremely vocal about not trusting the EU enforcing their borders, so they will have to enforce theirs. Otherwise they're failing their duty to bring a true Brexit.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:43 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Just another typical rant by someone who cannot reconcile the fact the the UK choose to leave their precious union :rotfl:

I see that you're unable to deal with the actual content.


Because you make things up.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The EU wants the UK to honor its commitments, the horror I know, that want the Good Friday Agreement to be honored and the troubles not returned.


<groundhog day>
Please show me where we are not honouring the GFA

Dutchy wrote:

And given the recent poll that the Conservative Party members find it more important to have a Brexit than have Northern Ireland in the UK,




No they don’t find it more important they believe in honouring the referenda

Dutchy wrote:
perhaps that should be the solution,the Republic of Northern Ireland within the EU and the UK out with the WA minus the backstop, deal?


If that’s what they want.

Dutchy wrote:
And you should argue that Northern Ireland would have become a colony, not the UK perse.



Why would I argue that, if NI chooses to use the mechanism for leaving the UK which the have had since the inception of the GFA. It been three years since the referenda I have not seen a big push to use it.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:05 pm

Seriously, couldn't we just ignore the usual troll ?
It's clear now he doesn't add any value in this thread...
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:06 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Just another typical rant by someone who cannot reconcile the fact the the UK choose to leave their precious union :rotfl:

I see that you're unable to deal with the actual content.


Because you make things up.

That's the inconvenient thing about this: These delusions peddled by Leave proponents keep falling by the wayside and are like snow in the summer heat, while I can still stand by my statements about the EU all the way back to when I joined this forum.

Your problem is that you guys keep making claims which are already known to be false and your only defense against reality is shutting your eyes and ears against it.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:41 pm

JJJ wrote:

Because both UK and RoI are in the common market and have freedom of movement of people. There are rules and mutual commitments to ensure there is no border.

.

The Irish have had free movement since 1922, also we had the Anglo-Irish trade agreement which pre-dates joining the EEC/EU.

Show me the rules which state we have to be in same regulatory alignment


JJJ wrote:
Things change now. The UK has been extremely vocal about not trusting the EU enforcing their borders, so they will have to enforce theirs. Otherwise they're failing their duty to bring a true Brexit

.


I think you have it all about face.
Last edited by A101 on Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:47 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
I see that you're unable to deal with the actual content.


Because you make things up.

That's the inconvenient thing about this: These delusions peddled by Leave proponents keep falling by the wayside and are like snow in the summer heat, while I can still stand by my statements about the EU all the way back to when I joined this forum.

Your problem is that you guys keep making claims which are already known to be false and your only defense against reality is shutting your eyes and ears against it.



Please refute MY claims
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:21 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And given the recent poll that the Conservative Party members find it more important to have a Brexit than have Northern Ireland in the UK,


No they don’t find it more important they believe in honouring the referenda


Except when Corbyn would become PM, then they would give up Brexit in a flash. The only question asked in the poll which resembles democracy, they said no. And so your argument falls.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And given the recent poll that the Conservative Party members find it more important to have a Brexit than have Northern Ireland in the UK,


No they don’t find it more important they believe in honouring the referenda


Except when Corbyn would become PM, then they would give up Brexit in a flash. The only question asked in the poll which resembles democracy, they said no. And so your argument falls.





No the only one who is failing is you, Christ mate stay on one line of thought, one minute your talking about the Tories and how you think that they would rather see the UK dissolve than not see Brexit thru, and I answered on that basis. But now you are change tack and start talking about Corbyn and the Labour Party.

Do you now what you are even arguing about?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:04 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

No they don’t find it more important they believe in honouring the referenda


Except when Corbyn would become PM, then they would give up Brexit in a flash. The only question asked in the poll which resembles democracy, they said no. And so your argument falls.





No the only one who is failing is you, Christ mate stay on one line of thought, one minute your talking about the Tories and how you think that they would rather see the UK dissolve than not see Brexit thru, and I answered on that basis. But now you are change tack and start talking about Corbyn and the Labour Party.

Do you now what you are even arguing about?


Do you know that these questions were in the same poll? Yes you do, because you have been following this thread like a hawk. So what are you babbling about? I know it is hard when your own argument holds against you, but there it is, the core of the Brexiteers: hypocrisy..
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Except when Corbyn would become PM, then they would give up Brexit in a flash. The only question asked in the poll which resembles democracy, they said no. And so your argument falls.





No the only one who is failing is you, Christ mate stay on one line of thought, one minute your talking about the Tories and how you think that they would rather see the UK dissolve than not see Brexit thru, and I answered on that basis. But now you are change tack and start talking about Corbyn and the Labour Party.

Do you now what you are even arguing about?


Do you know that these questions were in the same poll? Yes you do, because you have been following this thread like a hawk. So what are you babbling about? I know it is hard when your own argument holds against you, but there it is, the core of the Brexiteers: hypocrisy..



Yes I know what I’m talking about your original post was all about the Tories being prepared to break up the Kingdom, you made no mention of Corbyn untill now, you where pouring scorn over the Tories on that basis and that basis alone, because you have no answer to my reply now your bring that up, your original intent was on that preception alone.( breaking up the Kingdom)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:35 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:




No the only one who is failing is you, Christ mate stay on one line of thought, one minute your talking about the Tories and how you think that they would rather see the UK dissolve than not see Brexit thru, and I answered on that basis. But now you are change tack and start talking about Corbyn and the Labour Party.

Do you now what you are even arguing about?


Do you know that these questions were in the same poll? Yes you do, because you have been following this thread like a hawk. So what are you babbling about? I know it is hard when your own argument holds against you, but there it is, the core of the Brexiteers: hypocrisy..



Yes I know what I’m talking about your original post was all about the Tories being prepared to break up the Kingdom, you made no mention of Corbyn untill now, you where pouring scorn over the Tories on that basis and that basis alone, because you have no answer to my reply now your bring that up, your original intent was on that preception alone.( breaking up the Kingdom)


Oh, besides being in the possession of a crystal ball, you are a mind reader as well. Interesting. The results of the poll were posted here and open for anyone, you could have and should have known and you probably did.

Breaking up of the UK with Northern Ireland and Scotland leaving: no problem, significant damage to the UK economy, no problem, Conservative party destroyed - Tory members remember -, no problem, Corbyn PM, no Brexit.

Image

This poll shows to what length the Brexitremist will go to have their little Pyrus victory, damage all around, no benefits. They will most probably get all of their wishes come through, very much including Corbyn not become PM after the next election. The Tories and Labor should be held accountable for putting Brittain through this self-inflicted wound.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:53 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Because both UK and RoI are in the common market and have freedom of movement of people. There are rules and mutual commitments to ensure there is no border.

.

The Irish have had free movement since 1922, also we had the Anglo-Irish trade agreement which pre-dates joining the EEC/EU.

Show me the rules which state we have to be in same regulatory alignment


You mean the 1923 agreement that forced Ireland to abide by Britain rules on immigration? (a very post-colonial thing).

This lasted until the war, and wasn't reinstated until 1952 because UK wanted assurances that Ireland would follow British immigration law.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... -documents

The root of the matter is that before the war the Irish Free State had an immigration system on our lines; their policy regarding the admission of aliens was similar to ours and the two immigration services worked closely together. The immigration officials visited each other, got to know each other's methods of working, and the policy of the respective Governments was the same. If, for instance, the Irish Free State admitted an alien on certain conditions, we automatically applied the same conditions to him if he came to the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Further, no one admitted to the Irish Free 847 State would be denied admission to the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Over the control of aliens the Irish Free State and the United Kingdom were one unit.

Today, the Irish Republic has no longer the same immigration sytem or the same policy with the result that the Irish Republic admits many aliens who would not be qualified to come to this country whether on a Ministry of Labour work permit, as a distressed relative, or under any other category. The example of the Ministry of Labour work permit shows the importance of aliens control. In Northern Ireland, as in Continental countries which have a land frontier, there is an employment permit sytem. This protects the Northern Ireland worker by controlling the employment of people who do not come from Ulster. In Great Britain, we have many customs, and laws which have developed in a certain way because this is an island. One example is our aliens control which is at the port of entry. It is the only check. We have no employment permit system, and there is nothing in our laws and regulations to stop an employer employing an alien and putting a British subject out of work.


Sound similar? Because it is.

Ireland only got the CTA by aligning themselves to the British legislation on immigration, and now in 2019 Ireland is part of a bigger entity called the EU who has their own rules. Rules that can be accomodated somehow, but only up to a certain point.

If the UK wants free flow of people they need to abide by the rules of the larger group. They can no longer bully their smaller neighbour.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 am

To be honest, I'm not surprised Tory members would rather call off Brexit than allow Corbyn to become Prime Minister. I would hazard a guess that if the boot was on the other foot and if Labour was in power at this time they too would rather cancel than allow the Tories to get in to power. In fact, I can't think of any situation where someone would be happy to see their main opponent become victorious.

That said, given Labour had their backsides handed to them on a plate at the European elections and lost councils/councillors at the local elections a few weeks prior (albeit in the case of the latter nowhere near as much as the Tories) and despite what some of Corbyn's cult following may say, I don't think they stand much chance of gaining a workable majority any time soon if an early election is called, especially for as long as Corbyn is leader and continues with his wishy-washy stance on Brexit. I keep saying that Labour are just as divided on Brexit as the Tories and it's becoming more evident over the last few weeks as they tear themselves apart over that and other issues engulfing them.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And you should argue that Northern Ireland would have become a colony, not the UK perse.


Why would I argue that, if NI chooses to use the mechanism for leaving the UK which the have had since the inception of the GFA. It been three years since the referenda I have not seen a big push to use it.


Maybe because there's one of two things happening...

Firstly, there's probably a lot of people within Northern Ireland waiting to see what happens next and seeing what this means with respect to the status quo, whilst simultaneously voicing their concerns over what a border will mean.

Secondly, any push for a border poll now whilst still not knowing what Brexit is going to look like or happen runs the real risk of upsetting the peace, particularly in the absence of a majority being in favour of uniting with Ireland (which is what the GFA states is a requirement for a border poll). You only have to look back at history and at the more recent Scottish independence referendum 5 years ago to see how divisive this could be. Another factor with respect to a border poll is that Irish voters in the Republic also need to vote in favour if Northern Ireland votes in favour to join Ireland. The only group really pushing for a border poll when given the opportunity is Sinn Fein (in fact, they were calling for one almost immediately after the EU referendum result).

I suspect there's a bit of both at play.

That said, the main parties of Northern Ireland should really be pushing to restore Stormont. Dissolved for 2 1/2 years and counting.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:21 am

Dutchy wrote:

Oh, besides being in the possession of a crystal ball, you are a mind reader as well. Interesting.


Nah haven’t got one of them otherwise I would have used it to win the lotto, but besides that all I had to do was read your post.


Dutchy wrote:
The results of the poll were posted here and open for anyone, you could have and should have known and you probably did.


Yeah I notice you didn’t link it and no mention to the Corbyn poll within it, just the bias on Tories on breaking up the Kingdom

Dutchy wrote:
Breaking up of the UK with Northern Ireland and Scotland leaving: no problem, significant damage to the UK economy, no problem, Conservative party destroyed - Tory members remember -, no problem, Corbyn PM, no Brexit.


Now that your mentioning Corbyn, what’s your point?


Dutchy wrote:
This poll shows to what length the Brexitremist will go to have their little Pyrus victory, damage all around, no benefits. They will most probably get all of their wishes come through, very much including Corbyn not become PM after the next election. The Tories and Labor should be held accountable for putting Brittain through this self-inflicted wound.



Well I partly agree with what you said, it should never have got to the point where we are now, Cameron was the one who instigated the whole process over many years which lead to the referenda. It was under his priminstership which should have a process and a plan to move forward for whichever vote succeeded. Cameron bears the ultimate responsibility for what came after the referenda.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:45 am

A101 wrote:
Well I partly agree with what you said, it should never have got to the point where we are now, Cameron was the one who instigated the whole process over many years which lead to the referenda. It was under his priminstership which should have a process and a plan to move forward for whichever vote succeeded. Cameron bears the ultimate responsibility for what came after the referenda.


Oh, that's easy, I bear no responsibility for my vote, Cameron did it. Cameron has been gone for 3 years, the current politicians in power should make the best of it, they have all kinds of power if they want to exercise it. No excuse for current politicians to blame others.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:30 am

JJJ wrote:

You mean the 1923 agreement that forced Ireland to abide by Britain rules on immigration? (a very post-colonial thing).

This lasted until the war, and wasn't reinstated until 1952 because UK wanted assurances that Ireland would follow British immigration law.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... -documents

The root of the matter is that before the war the Irish Free State had an immigration system on our lines; their policy regarding the admission of aliens was similar to ours and the two immigration services worked closely together. The immigration officials visited each other, got to know each other's methods of working, and the policy of the respective Governments was the same. If, for instance, the Irish Free State admitted an alien on certain conditions, we automatically applied the same conditions to him if he came to the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Further, no one admitted to the Irish Free 847 State would be denied admission to the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Over the control of aliens the Irish Free State and the United Kingdom were one unit.

Today, the Irish Republic has no longer the same immigration sytem or the same policy with the result that the Irish Republic admits many aliens who would not be qualified to come to this country whether on a Ministry of Labour work permit, as a distressed relative, or under any other category. The example of the Ministry of Labour work permit shows the importance of aliens control. In Northern Ireland, as in Continental countries which have a land frontier, there is an employment permit sytem. This protects the Northern Ireland worker by controlling the employment of people who do not come from Ulster. In Great Britain, we have many customs, and laws which have developed in a certain way because this is an island. One example is our aliens control which is at the port of entry. It is the only check. We have no employment permit system, and there is nothing in our laws and regulations to stop an employer employing an alien and putting a British subject out of work.


Sound similar? Because it is.

Ireland only got the CTA by aligning themselves to the British legislation on immigration, and now in 2019 Ireland is part of a bigger entity called the EU who has their own rules. Rules that can be accomodated somehow, but only up to a certain point.

If the UK wants free flow of people they need to abide by the rules of the larger group. They can no longer bully their smaller neighbour.



You do realise what “aliens” is referring to don’t you, a foreigner, and an undesirable aliens is some who they do not wish to enter the country from within the CTA. And did you miss the part where it said that “their policy regarding the admission of aliens was similar to ours and the two immigration services worked closely together”


3 Commons Library Briefing, 9 June 2017
Summary
The Common Travel Area
The Common Travel Area (CTA) is a special travel zone between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, Isle of Man and Channel Islands. It dates back to the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922.



&

CTA arrangements have existed (in various forms) since the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922......... Irish nationals have a special status in UK law which is separate to and pre-dates the rights they have as EU citizens.

 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:34 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
To be honest, I'm not surprised Tory members would rather call off Brexit than allow Corbyn to become Prime Minister. I would hazard a guess that if the boot was on the other foot and if Labour was in power at this time they too would rather cancel than allow the Tories to get in to power. In fact, I can't think of any situation where someone would be happy to see their main opponent become victorious.

That said, given Labour had their backsides handed to them on a plate at the European elections and lost councils/councillors at the local elections a few weeks prior (albeit in the case of the latter nowhere near as much as the Tories) and despite what some of Corbyn's cult following may say, I don't think they stand much chance of gaining a workable majority any time soon if an early election is called, especially for as long as Corbyn is leader and continues with his wishy-washy stance on Brexit. I keep saying that Labour are just as divided on Brexit as the Tories and it's becoming more evident over the last few weeks as they tear themselves apart over that and other issues engulfing them.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And you should argue that Northern Ireland would have become a colony, not the UK perse.


Why would I argue that, if NI chooses to use the mechanism for leaving the UK which the have had since the inception of the GFA. It been three years since the referenda I have not seen a big push to use it.


Maybe because there's one of two things happening...

Firstly, there's probably a lot of people within Northern Ireland waiting to see what happens next and seeing what this means with respect to the status quo, whilst simultaneously voicing their concerns over what a border will mean.

Secondly, any push for a border poll now whilst still not knowing what Brexit is going to look like or happen runs the real risk of upsetting the peace, particularly in the absence of a majority being in favour of uniting with Ireland (which is what the GFA states is a requirement for a border poll). You only have to look back at history and at the more recent Scottish independence referendum 5 years ago to see how divisive this could be. Another factor with respect to a border poll is that Irish voters in the Republic also need to vote in favour if Northern Ireland votes in favour to join Ireland. The only group really pushing for a border poll when given the opportunity is Sinn Fein (in fact, they were calling for one almost immediately after the EU referendum result).

I suspect there's a bit of both at play.

That said, the main parties of Northern Ireland should really be pushing to restore Stormont. Dissolved for 2 1/2 years and counting.


Good post very constructive, I actually enjoyed it. Some food for thought amongst it
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well I partly agree with what you said, it should never have got to the point where we are now, Cameron was the one who instigated the whole process over many years which lead to the referenda. It was under his priminstership which should have a process and a plan to move forward for whichever vote succeeded. Cameron bears the ultimate responsibility for what came after the referenda.


Oh, that's easy, I bear no responsibility for my vote, Cameron did it. Cameron has been gone for 3 years, the current politicians in power should make the best of it, they have all kinds of power if they want to exercise it. No excuse for current politicians to blame others.



Mmm another no responsibility shot gee it’s getting a bit boring on your part, if I did care how I voted I would not have voted, just because Cameron threw all his toys outside the pram when the vote didn’t go the way he thought, does not absolve his responsibility, yes TM did a crap job and was out of her depth but she should not have been put in that position in the first place, it was Cameron’s who went to an election on it and vowed to implement the result
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:05 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

You mean the 1923 agreement that forced Ireland to abide by Britain rules on immigration? (a very post-colonial thing).

This lasted until the war, and wasn't reinstated until 1952 because UK wanted assurances that Ireland would follow British immigration law.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... -documents

The root of the matter is that before the war the Irish Free State had an immigration system on our lines; their policy regarding the admission of aliens was similar to ours and the two immigration services worked closely together. The immigration officials visited each other, got to know each other's methods of working, and the policy of the respective Governments was the same. If, for instance, the Irish Free State admitted an alien on certain conditions, we automatically applied the same conditions to him if he came to the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Further, no one admitted to the Irish Free 847 State would be denied admission to the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Over the control of aliens the Irish Free State and the United Kingdom were one unit.

Today, the Irish Republic has no longer the same immigration sytem or the same policy with the result that the Irish Republic admits many aliens who would not be qualified to come to this country whether on a Ministry of Labour work permit, as a distressed relative, or under any other category. The example of the Ministry of Labour work permit shows the importance of aliens control. In Northern Ireland, as in Continental countries which have a land frontier, there is an employment permit sytem. This protects the Northern Ireland worker by controlling the employment of people who do not come from Ulster. In Great Britain, we have many customs, and laws which have developed in a certain way because this is an island. One example is our aliens control which is at the port of entry. It is the only check. We have no employment permit system, and there is nothing in our laws and regulations to stop an employer employing an alien and putting a British subject out of work.


Sound similar? Because it is.

Ireland only got the CTA by aligning themselves to the British legislation on immigration, and now in 2019 Ireland is part of a bigger entity called the EU who has their own rules. Rules that can be accomodated somehow, but only up to a certain point.

If the UK wants free flow of people they need to abide by the rules of the larger group. They can no longer bully their smaller neighbour.



You do realise what “aliens” is referring to don’t you, a foreigner, and an undesirable aliens is some who they do not wish to enter the country from within the CTA. And did you miss the part where it said that “their policy regarding the admission of aliens was similar to ours and the two immigration services worked closely together”


"was" as in "no longer is". And it was aligned in 1922 because the UK forced it into a newly created state. In the 40s Ireland went its own way with regards to immigration policy so it was no longer eligible for borderless movement of people with the UK.

It took a re-aligning to create the CTA (again, basically RoI adopting British laws)

To paraphrase. The immigration policy of the UK right now "is" aligned with the EU's and that's why there is free movement of people. If there's a time in which that's no longer true, border policy will have to re-align in the opposite direction.

If the UK adopts European laws, then free movement will be possible, but that's apparently out of the question (sovereignty and all that).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:39 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well I partly agree with what you said, it should never have got to the point where we are now, Cameron was the one who instigated the whole process over many years which lead to the referenda. It was under his priminstership which should have a process and a plan to move forward for whichever vote succeeded. Cameron bears the ultimate responsibility for what came after the referenda.


Oh, that's easy, I bear no responsibility for my vote, Cameron did it. Cameron has been gone for 3 years, the current politicians in power should make the best of it, they have all kinds of power if they want to exercise it. No excuse for current politicians to blame others.



Mmm another no responsibility shot gee it’s getting a bit boring on your part, if I did care how I voted I would not have voted, just because Cameron threw all his toys outside the pram when the vote didn’t go the way he thought, does not absolve his responsibility, yes TM did a crap job and was out of her depth but she should not have been put in that position in the first place, it was Cameron’s who went to an election on it and vowed to implement the result


Nice debating style, just say non-response because you get an answer you do not like. It is for the current politicians to solve it, it is no use to blame Cameron. Also no use to blame Theresa May, we have seen were the problem lies: Parliament, they do not have a single point of view which is being backed by the majority. Perfectly logical, they do not want to be responsible for putting the UK through severely economical damage, even though the majority of the Torie members want it and you are on record that you accept that as well.
Politically difficult to make something from something you don't want and know is bad for the country.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:15 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
To be honest, I'm not surprised Tory members would rather call off Brexit than allow Corbyn to become Prime Minister. I would hazard a guess that if the boot was on the other foot and if Labour was in power at this time they too would rather cancel than allow the Tories to get in to power. In fact, I can't think of any situation where someone would be happy to see their main opponent become victorious.


It's not about being happy. Having the opposition getting power from time to time is the basis of a well functioning democracy. When one party stays in power for too long, things always go wrong.

Furthermore, Brexit is a major institutional change, with far fetched consequences, that will be felt for decades to come. A few years of Corbyn wouldn't have such drastic effect.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
To be honest, I'm not surprised Tory members would rather call off Brexit than allow Corbyn to become Prime Minister. I would hazard a guess that if the boot was on the other foot and if Labour was in power at this time they too would rather cancel than allow the Tories to get in to power. In fact, I can't think of any situation where someone would be happy to see their main opponent become victorious.


It's not about being happy. Having the opposition getting power from time to time is the basis of a well functioning democracy. When one party stays in power for too long, things always go wrong.

Furthermore, Brexit is a major institutional change, with far fetched consequences, that will be felt for decades to come. A few years of Corbyn wouldn't have such drastic effect.


In countries with a written constitution, change of the scale of Brexit can only happen with supermajorities and special procedures.

In the UK however, a party which governs without a simple majority in a FPTP electoral system and which effectively represents justs a quarter of the votes genuinely feels it's in its right to decide what sort of Brexit the UK will persue and to re-write pretty much the whole British legal textbook almost as a consequence.

No wonder it's facing insurmountable practical problems and daily oppositiion (even from within) when trying to do so: their plans are just not enjoying the required support to be smoothly rolled out and the one time they actually put them to a popular vote (through a manifesto for a GE), they LOST.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:51 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
To be honest, I'm not surprised Tory members would rather call off Brexit than allow Corbyn to become Prime Minister. I would hazard a guess that if the boot was on the other foot and if Labour was in power at this time they too would rather cancel than allow the Tories to get in to power. In fact, I can't think of any situation where someone would be happy to see their main opponent become victorious.


It's not about being happy. Having the opposition getting power from time to time is the basis of a well functioning democracy. When one party stays in power for too long, things always go wrong.

Furthermore, Brexit is a major institutional change, with far fetched consequences, that will be felt for decades to come. A few years of Corbyn wouldn't have such drastic effect.


In countries with a written constitution, change of the scale of Brexit can only happen with supermajorities and special procedures.

In the UK however, a party which governs without a simple majority in a FPTP electoral system and which effectively represents justs a quarter of the votes genuinely feels it's in its right to decide what sort of Brexit the UK will persue and to re-write pretty much the whole British legal textbook almost as a consequence.

No wonder it's facing insurmountable practical problems and daily oppositiion (even from within) when trying to do so: their plans are just not enjoying the required support to be smoothly rolled out and the one time they actually put them to a popular vote (through a manifesto for a GE), they LOST.


That's why the "win" for Trump is less damaging than the "win" for the Brexiteers. It will have a long-lasting effect.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:54 pm

Interesting read from the ROI/EU side about the Irish border preparation in case of no deal Brexit.
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-co ... al-border/

On the unwillingness to leak any details because they know it would inevitably be used against EU in the British press. So true !
We’re not going to have a group where all this detail is spelled out because all this will be spun in the wrong way in the British press, and it will play into the wrong hands.


Border technical aspects very unlikely to be ready day 1 in case of no deal, on the contrary everything would start from scratch on this day. As a serious infrastructure would take years to set up anyway, better to continue waiting for the british to express what they wish as long term relationship.
However, establishing a long-term border, if that is what destiny has in store, could take years. The immediate problem is that the authorities on either side of the border will be operating from scratch, with no legal framework outside the bare minimum WTO provisions.


And a last bit on the alternative arrangements (the AAC report) and the requirement they would have to meet in order to qualify as a backstop substitute : “they must ensure no hard border; they must comply with both the Union Customs Code and WTO rules; they must treat all member states equally (ie, Ireland cannot become a semi-detached member through some joint SPS-zone with the UK); and finally, they must comply with the objectives of the all-island economy”.
I’ve read elsewhere the AAC report clearly pushes ROI to break the EU’s common rule book of standards and regulations. EU officials have currently a pretty hot topic to deal with and won’t discuss this report now but if that’s true I’d think the “cool reception” mentioned in the blog is an understatement !
The EU, and Dublin, have declined to respond publicly to the report as it is not an official UK government paper.
However, officials from member states meeting in Brussels on Thursday gave it a cool reception when briefed on its contents by the European Commission.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:21 pm

JJJ wrote:

"was" as in "no longer is". And it was aligned in 1922 because the UK forced it into a newly created state.



Really that’s an interesting interpretation of events


JJJ wrote:

In the 40s Ireland went its own way with regards to immigration policy so it was no longer eligible for borderless movement of people with the UK.



And the reason was Irish neutrality in WW2 and undesirable aliens using Ireland to gain entry to Britain

JJJ wrote:
It took a re-aligning to create the CTA (again, basically RoI adopting British laws)


Immigration into Britain, free movement was still avalible within Ireland itself


JJJ wrote:
To paraphrase. The immigration policy of the UK right now "is" aligned with the EU's and that's why there is free movement of people. If there's a time in which that's no longer true, border policy will have to re-align in the opposite direction.

If the UK adopts European laws, then free movement will be possible, but that's apparently out of the question (sovereignty and all that).


You do realise that in the event of no deal exit the ROI/UK have made a new agreement for the free travel of Irish citizens into both Northern Ireland and greater UK
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:00 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It took a re-aligning to create the CTA (again, basically RoI adopting British laws)


Immigration into Britain, free movement was still avalible within Ireland itself


There was a border where documents were checked. Which is the point I've been making the whole time.

Until 1952, that is, when Ireland again aligned their laws to those of Britain so that the British were again comfortable letting go of controls.

That's what's happening right now. UK wants to diverge from the common regulations and that's perfectly understandable. It just comes with a border with checks and all.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:07 pm

It’s amazing that Theresa May fell and the tories were wiped out in the recent elections as the Irish Border question blocked brexit, yet a101 has the answer all along.

I feel so enlightened.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:50 pm

JJJ wrote:

There was a border where documents were checked. Which is the point I've been making the whole time.
.


What your are referring to on the Irish border are customs checks, if you or you family arrived at the border in vehicle, you needed to declare goods bought and in the case of a car or truck customs would want stamp “triptyque” which is a pre-1965 paper allowing the temporary importation of the vehicle into the UK controlled area ( NI) if you arrived on foot there was no need for these procedures, in other words free movement across the border.

JJJ wrote:
Until 1952, that is, when Ireland again aligned their laws to those of Britain so that the British were again comfortable letting go of controls.


And once again these were for entry into the greater UK from Island of Ireland

JJJ wrote:
That's what's happening right now. UK wants to diverge from the common regulations and that's perfectly understandable. It just comes with a border with checks and all.



Yes that’s what happens when you leave the single market, there was not ever a doubt the ROI/UK were going to be in a different regulatory regimes under the future relationship all they are trying to achieve is internal trade continues to move across the border seamless as possabile
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:18 pm

A101 wrote:
Yes that’s what happens when you leave the single market, there was not ever a doubt the ROI/UK were going to be in a different regulatory regimes under the future relationship all they are trying to achieve is internal trade continues to move across the border seamless as possabile

And the hard Brexit you're pushing for will put an end to exactly that.

There's not even a choice after that, really, because it's simply an automatic consequence to a hard Brexit.

The UK diverging from EU rules and regulations forces a hard border, with all the consequences.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Nice debating style, just say non-response because you get an answer you do not like.


Oh you do make me laugh sometime’s, and here I thought I was given my view on the situation.

Dutchy wrote:
It is for the current politicians to solve it, it is no use to blame Cameron. Also no use to blame Theresa May, we have seen were the problem lies: Parliament,


It’s up to the current government to solve, you do realise that Cameron was the head government at the time of referenda it was his responsibility to see it through. Also it’s not Parliament fault at all as it cannot make or amend international treaties. With TM signing the WA before she could get it thru Parliament all it achieved was reduce her options to any renegotiate the WA and emboldened the EU to keep there current stance.


Dutchy wrote:
they do not have a single point of view which is being backed by the majority. Perfectly logical, they do not want to be responsible for putting the UK through severely economical damage, even though the majority of the Torie members want it and you are on record that you accept that as well.
Politically difficult to make something from something you don't want and know is bad for the country.



Parliament has several points of view hence the Indicative votes, it was then up to government to use those to try and renegotiate with the EU to present a document that parliament is satisfied with, once again parliament cannot make or amend a international treaty its only authority is to either ratify or block it to either government makes amendments or blocks Indefinitely

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