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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:23 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Oh I see.

I didn’t realise that the Brexit party wanted to do away with democracy and exterminate millions of people.

Your clever comparison reveals all.


Well, you could give us your opinion about your chosen representatives. They are toddlers, this will set a president, they will not do anything in the EU parliament, just frustrating the process and sticking up the finger to EU democracy. The remaining EU member of parliament are all chosen and at least respect each other. I am guessing most Brexitremist will find it the perfect symbol, of course, you need to do this. The NAZI party photo will probably be from 1932/1933, so yes, they did want to do away with democracy, and no at that time no the extermination of millions. I think it is not wise to do the resemblance, although I see that the populist movement inspired by Putin as anti-democratic.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Oh I see.

I didn’t realise that the Brexit party wanted to do away with democracy and exterminate millions of people.

Your clever comparison reveals all.


Well, you could give us your opinion about your chosen representatives. They are toddlers, this will set a president, they will not do anything in the EU parliament, just frustrating the process and sticking up the finger to EU democracy. The remaining EU member of parliament are all chosen and at least respect each other. I am guessing most Brexitremist will find it the perfect symbol, of course, you need to do this. The NAZI party photo will probably be from 1932/1933, so yes, they did want to do away with democracy, and no at that time no the extermination of millions. I think it is not wise to do the resemblance, although I see that the populist movement inspired by Putin as anti-democratic.


What is your point?

Will the Brexit party do away with democracy if they seize power?

Will they start invading nations?

Will they pick on a minority group and murder them in their millions?

Do you think this could happen?
Last edited by noviorbis77 on Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:53 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Oh I see.

I didn’t realise that the Brexit party wanted to do away with democracy and exterminate millions of people.

Your clever comparison reveals all.


Well, you could give us your opinion about your chosen representatives. They are toddlers, this will set a president, they will not do anything in the EU parliament, just frustrating the process and sticking up the finger to EU democracy. The remaining EU member of parliament are all chosen and at least respect each other. I am guessing most Brexitremist will find it the perfect symbol, of course, you need to do this. The NAZI party photo will probably be from 1932/1933, so yes, they did want to do away with democracy, and no at that time no the extermination of millions. I think it is not wise to do the resemblance, although I see that the populist movement inspired by Putin as anti-democratic.


What is your point?

Will the Brexit party do away with democracy if they cease power?

Will they start invading nations?

Will they pick on a minority group and murder them in their millions?

Do you think this could happen?


What is your opinion about the behavior of your members of parlement?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well, you could give us your opinion about your chosen representatives. They are toddlers, this will set a president, they will not do anything in the EU parliament, just frustrating the process and sticking up the finger to EU democracy. The remaining EU member of parliament are all chosen and at least respect each other. I am guessing most Brexitremist will find it the perfect symbol, of course, you need to do this. The NAZI party photo will probably be from 1932/1933, so yes, they did want to do away with democracy, and no at that time no the extermination of millions. I think it is not wise to do the resemblance, although I see that the populist movement inspired by Putin as anti-democratic.


What is your point?

Will the Brexit party do away with democracy if they cease power?

Will they start invading nations?

Will they pick on a minority group and murder them in their millions?

Do you think this could happen?


What is your opinion about the behavior of your members of parlement?


Don’t answer a question with a question.

My opinion of the Brexit party turning around. Absolutely fine. Shows the contempt the EU deserves.

Now back to my previous question please in relation to your suggestions of similarities to the Brexit Party and the National Socialists in Germany.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:14 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

What is your point?

Will the Brexit party do away with democracy if they cease power?

Will they start invading nations?

Will they pick on a minority group and murder them in their millions?

Do you think this could happen?


What is your opinion about the behavior of your members of parlement?


Don’t answer a question with a question.

My opinion of the Brexit party turning around. Absolutely fine. Shows the contempt the EU deserves.

Now back to my previous question please in relation to your suggestions of similarities to the Brexit Party and the National Socialists in Germany.


NAZI party showed contempt with their turning their back to the Bondstag, The Brexit party showed their contempt to the European Parlement. And you are absolutely fine with that, shame on you, but not unexpected. The Brexitparty are no democrats, and this shows it. True democrats know that democracy isn't the dictatorship of the majority, or in this case a small minority whom wants the hardest Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:39 pm

I find it hilarious that after this little populist stunt, these guys will then have to go see the very people they turned their back on in contempt and try to negotiate a favorable deal for the UK from them...

:rotfl:
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:33 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I see someone shook the tree and woke a few more Brexiteers today. I was getting bored of the A101 show anyhow...



Ah I have something to say just a little busy at the moment, just tying up some lose ends before my trip to oz and some Barra fishing in the top end.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:27 am

That a select group of idiots show this sort of disrespect for the EP, that is one thing. But the fact that it didn't trigger an outrage among sensible people back home in the UK, that shows how deeply the UK has sunk into the trash.

Once upon a time Brittons were generally considered to be gentle and polite people who normally acted like educated people, Now they compete among the world's bottom 10% in that respect. What a shame.

Things have changed. Also on the continent. Three year ago there were 27 x regrets. Today, come October the sooner the better. Bummer that we didn't stick to 29 March.
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tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:19 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Image


Oh I see.

I didn’t realise that the Brexit party wanted to do away with democracy and exterminate millions of people.
.


Quite hilarious considering that democracy very obviously still existed at that time and the decision to exterminate millions was still years off....

Especially coming from someone that is terrified of giving people a vote because he is afraid he wont like the outcome...

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 am

Now we will see if the parliament confirm theses choices.

I heard in France that if Macron was against Weber it is because he was the one that opposed to transnational lists.

If a german member heard why merkel was so against barnier ?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
kaitak
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:12 am

It gets more and more pathetic every day; what exactly was supposed to be achieved by this childish and embarrassing act? Did anyone actually sit down and think of what was expected to come of this little stunt? It was petulent and quite simply, silly.

It just saddens to me to see Britain come to this; now, you might think it odd that an Irishman would think this of the UK, given our rather ... complicated ... history, but this was a country which once ruled a greater proportion of the earth's landmass and population than any before or since, and (to borrow a line from a British comedy) on which the sun never set without first asking permission. The country of Shakespeare, Johnson (Samuel, not Boris!!), Brunel and so many who gave so much ... reduced to this pathetic rabble of ostriches, wilfully blind to the reality of the modern world.

At this stage, I think we've gone beyond "should/shouldn't go"; let them go and see just what kind of a "s**t show" they've voted themselves into. Let them see, two, three or five years down the road what they've got themselves into and the real consequences of their decision.

Got to laugh at Johnson (Boris, this time) and Hunt in Belfast yesterday and their pathetic and complete lack of understanding of Northern Ireland and any cogent, realistic proposals as to what might happen in respect of it. Here's an excellent summary in today's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... hts-sketch
 
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Loew
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:21 pm

Main question is, whether are these guys going to turn their backs on MEP salary :rotfl:
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:01 pm

Canada refusing to roll over CETA in case of 'no deal' Brexit!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/can ... eement-for

For months, Britain has been pushing the Canadians to guarantee continuity by rolling over CETA even in a 'no-deal' scenario.
However, Canada has now decided to wait and see what would happen before revisiting their trading relationship, a well-placed source at the Department for International Trade has told.
Reason for this is ministers in Britain have indicated that the UK would unilaterally have to remove tariffs on all imports in a 'no-deal' Brexit to prevent a sudden spike in prices for British consumers. The Canadians believe this will provide far better terms for Canadian producers selling into the British market than they would get under any bilateral trade deal, all without any of the trade-offs.
British trade officials are "furious" at the rebuff, having spent months trying to convince the Canadians to extend CETA, the DIT source said.
Securing a continuity agreement with Canada would have been a massive boost for the UK's hopes of building a prosperous independent trade policy after Brexit. Not only is Canada a major trading partner, it has taken on outsize symbolic importance in the Brexit debate as many Tory Eurosceptics, including Johnson, talk of a "Canada-style" free trade deal with the EU as their preferred foundation for the UK's future trade policy, while Hunt this week said he was lining up a former Canadian prime minister to lead his Brexit negotiating team if he becomes prime minister.
Back in March, before the original deadline for leaving the EU was extended to October, British trade officials were so confident that Canada would simply roll over CETA they reportedly told the Times a deal was just days away from being clinched...




A 'Canada style' type of agreement, right? :spit:
Remember this is just Canada, the easiest-but-one to do a deal with...
that other one of course being the EU itself, according to International Trade Secretary Liam Fox. :stirthepot:
It will be amuzing to see how the rest of the world welcomes British trade negotiators... and takes them to the cleaners. :white:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:51 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
A 'Canada style' type of agreement, right? :spit:
Remember this is just Canada, the easiest-but-one to do a deal with...
that other one of course being the EU itself, according to International Trade Secretary Liam Fox. :stirthepot:
It will be amuzing to see how the rest of the world welcomes British trade negotiators... and takes them to the cleaners. :white:


Not amusing, this is the consequence of a hard Brexit. Why would Canada or any other country for that matter, restrict themselves from dealing with the UK, when other countries get almost unrestricted access to the UK market? Why would anyone believe something else? Normally countries aren't in the habit to put themselves at the back of the queue.

but no worries, it is all project fear.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:52 pm

Loew wrote:
Main question is, whether are these guys going to turn their backs on MEP salary :rotfl:


As far as I know, mr. Farage has kept the 3million Euro's the EU has paid him for doing nothing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Loew
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Loew wrote:
Main question is, whether are these guys going to turn their backs on MEP salary :rotfl:


As far as I know, mr. Farage has kept the 3million Euro's the EU has paid him for doing nothing.


It may look like nothing to an untrained eye, but Mr. Farage has been a great contributor to local economy, thanks this frequent visits to bars all over Brussels :rotfl:
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:19 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Reason for this is ministers in Britain have indicated that the UK would unilaterally have to remove tariffs on all imports in a 'no-deal' Brexit to prevent a sudden spike in prices for British consumers. The Canadians believe this will provide far better terms for Canadian producers selling into the British market than they would get under any bilateral trade deal, all without any of the trade-offs.


Funny how that is exactly what you, I and a couple of other predicted to happen a year or longer back?

But no.... of course everyone will sign a bilateral with the UK....

Trade is give and take... unless someone comes along and removes the need to give anything.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

What is your opinion about the behavior of your members of parlement?


Don’t answer a question with a question.

My opinion of the Brexit party turning around. Absolutely fine. Shows the contempt the EU deserves.

Now back to my previous question please in relation to your suggestions of similarities to the Brexit Party and the National Socialists in Germany.


NAZI party showed contempt with their turning their back to the Bondstag, The Brexit party showed their contempt to the European Parlement. And you are absolutely fine with that, shame on you, but not unexpected. The Brexitparty are no democrats, and this shows it. True democrats know that democracy isn't the dictatorship of the majority, or in this case a small minority whom wants the hardest Brexit.


What an earth are you on about now?

How are the Brexit party undemocratic?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Image


Oh I see.

I didn’t realise that the Brexit party wanted to do away with democracy and exterminate millions of people.
.


Quite hilarious considering that democracy very obviously still existed at that time and the decision to exterminate millions was still years off....

Especially coming from someone that is terrified of giving people a vote because he is afraid he wont like the outcome...

Best regards
Thomas


We’ve had a vote. We do not need another one. Is this concept so difficult to understand.

And are you another one who think the Brexit party have the same long term ambitions as the Nazi party?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:43 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
We’ve had a vote. We do not need another one. Is this concept so difficult to understand.


You don't want another vote, you do not speak for everyone, important to remember and quite reusing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:45 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Don’t answer a question with a question.

My opinion of the Brexit party turning around. Absolutely fine. Shows the contempt the EU deserves.

Now back to my previous question please in relation to your suggestions of similarities to the Brexit Party and the National Socialists in Germany.


NAZI party showed contempt with their turning their back to the Bondstag, The Brexit party showed their contempt to the European Parlement. And you are absolutely fine with that, shame on you, but not unexpected. The Brexitparty are no democrats, and this shows it. True democrats know that democracy isn't the dictatorship of the majority, or in this case a small minority whom wants the hardest Brexit.


What an earth are you on about now?

How are the Brexit party undemocratic?


Sure, no surprise here that you do not understand what I am saying. A disconnect between what you believe an reality.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:01 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
We’ve had a vote. We do not need another one. Is this concept so difficult to understand.


Yeah, because more voting is so undemocratic. It's OK for MPs to change their minds and have multiple votes, but not the public, apparently. :sarcastic:

Even the Brexstremists' darling Rees-Mogg said in Parliament that a second referendum on the deal would be a good thing, but what does he know?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:05 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Reason for this is ministers in Britain have indicated that the UK would unilaterally have to remove tariffs on all imports in a 'no-deal' Brexit to prevent a sudden spike in prices for British consumers. The Canadians believe this will provide far better terms for Canadian producers selling into the British market than they would get under any bilateral trade deal, all without any of the trade-offs.


Funny how that is exactly what you, I and a couple of other predicted to happen a year or longer back?

But no.... of course everyone will sign a bilateral with the UK....

Trade is give and take... unless someone comes along and removes the need to give anything.

Best regards
Thomas


We have said so indeed. Brexit is not the end of Britain's humiliation, it's going to be just the start of it.
If you can't swallow the WA, wait till the discussions start on the terms and conditions to get a FTA with the EU!

A brief overview of the current status of the rollover of 3 of the most important trade agreements for the UK, next to the one with the EU:
Switzerland has agreed to give the UK the same market access as the EU gets, but has set very strict quota on work permits for Brits
South Korea has rolled over its recently concluded FTA with the EU on a time limited basis only, thus putting a knife on the throat of the Brits to agree to anything they'll ask on top, or lose it all
and now Canada isn't even willing to roll its FTA with the EU over and is betting on immediately forcing its way onto the British markets without any tarrif whatsoever.

So all goes well, doesn't it?
Zero FTAs ready to be signed the minute after Brexit, but rather just
a bunch of trade continuation agreements which invariably contain quota, sunset clauses or unilateral restrictions not present in the EU version of the agreement
and now a commonwealth realm which isn't shy of telling their own majesty's British Government they will take full benefit of the catch 22 situation the UK has brought itself into…

And then the really big fish still need to come: USA, PRC, and of course the one which is truly vital: the EU.

Luckily President Trump is such a nice guy when it comes to international trade, so, let's just arrogantly turn our back towards democratically elected representatives of the biggest trade block in the world and which need to approve any future trade agreement with Britain: sounds like a very smart idea indeed! ;)
Last edited by sabenapilot on Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:35 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
What's wrong with the people having a vote on the negotiated terms under which they will leave the EU?

After all, if a cash handover of at least £39BN isn't worth a public vote any longer…


Especially since the Brexit wasn't defined at all: Cameron said leaving everything, e.g. hard Brexit and Farage said Norwegian or Swiss style deal. Wasn't a brexetrimist whom said at the time that it would make perfect sense to return this to the public with a well-defined choice after the negotiations.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
What's wrong with the people having a vote on the negotiated terms under which they will leave the EU?

After all, if a cash handover of at least £39BN isn't worth a public vote any longer…


Especially since the Brexit wasn't defined at all: Cameron said leaving everything, e.g. hard Brexit and Farage said Norwegian or Swiss style deal.


All true, but I think the single most important reason to turn to the public once again is because Brexit means the UK will have to hand over at least £39BN to the EU to wind down the relationship: a transfer of such a vast amount of taxpayers money should be approved by some sort of a public vote first, especially since none of this was ever mentioned in the referendum, quite on the contrary even: it was sold as an immediate saving! When the price of your purchase turns out to be much much higher at checkout then it only showed on the bus advertising, you're bound to have some second thoughts too, won't you? ;)
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:42 pm

It seems to me that:

1) Whenever a "brexit solution" is debunked as a myth - it is replaced by another (mainly unfounded one)
2) Exponents of a hard brext want sovereignty and democracy as a result of leaving the EU - they do not want it to be part of the act of leaving.
3) What was promised during the referendum campaign is no where near what is happening
4) Exponents of a hard brexit are happy to complletely bugger the country and union as long as Brexit happens (as per Conservative votes)
5) It is OK for MP's to have as many votes as they like unitl they get the answer they won;t but the electorate are not allowed and must blindly knacker the country based on a vote founded on lies 3 years ago
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:57 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
What's wrong with the people having a vote on the negotiated terms under which they will leave the EU?

After all, if a cash handover of at least £39BN isn't worth a public vote any longer…


Especially since the Brexit wasn't defined at all: Cameron said leaving everything, e.g. hard Brexit and Farage said Norwegian or Swiss style deal.


All true, but I think the single most important reason to turn to the public once again is because Brexit means the UK will have to hand over at least £39BN to the EU to wind down the relationship: a transfer of such a vast amount of taxpayers money should be approved by some sort of a public vote first, especially since none of this was ever mentioned in the referendum, quite on the contrary even: it was sold as an immediate saving! When the price of your purchase turns out to be much much higher at checkout then it only showed on the bus advertising, you're bound to have some second thoughts too, won't you? ;)


That’s if we pay the divorce bill.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:09 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Especially since the Brexit wasn't defined at all: Cameron said leaving everything, e.g. hard Brexit and Farage said Norwegian or Swiss style deal.


All true, but I think the single most important reason to turn to the public once again is because Brexit means the UK will have to hand over at least £39BN to the EU to wind down the relationship: a transfer of such a vast amount of taxpayers money should be approved by some sort of a public vote first, especially since none of this was ever mentioned in the referendum, quite on the contrary even: it was sold as an immediate saving! When the price of your purchase turns out to be much much higher at checkout then it only showed on the bus advertising, you're bound to have some second thoughts too, won't you? ;)


That’s if we pay the divorce bill.


Really, do we need to go over that again? Much of it goes to pension plans of MEP or civil servants. So Farage is quite a beneficiary for this with half his life in the EU. And you want to UK to be known as a defaulter, will do great things for your credit rating, thus will be great to pay a higher percentage on your state lones. But as always, unthoughtful line of reasoning.

There are always consequences to your actions.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:58 pm

JJJ wrote:

So your definition of free movement is one where you can only cross on foot?

Ask the Gibraltarians how does that work for them.


Obviously you don’t understand what I wrote, the checks were purely customs checks pre 65 due to smuggling of goods across the border in vehicles and vehicles were temporarily imported, these restrictions were reduced when the Irish-Anglo trade agreement of 65 came into force.

Once again the restrictions were not on free movement of iritcitzens from North to South but on customs complains with regulations at the time.


JJJ wrote:
Of course the WTO will not tell you how to enforce a border, it's a trade not a policing authority.

What they will do is open the gates for everyone to throw the book at you for not doing enough to control your borders. If your only hope hinges on getting an exception well, let's just say the UK will be getting a taste of the glacial pace and heavy fines of the WTO (which probably works just fine for the current British leadership, they know they'll just be dumping it on following Prime Ministers).


No. WTO Article XXI Security Exceptions prevents any member from taking action against another state in order to maintain international peace and security.

Isn’t that what the GFA is manifestly about to prevent the troubles and intent of the security exceptions
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:06 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Once again show me what section the UK would be in violation.


The centerpiece of the GFA is the balancing of rights and opportunities between the Unionists (for unrestricted access to Britain) and the Republicans (for unrestricted access to the Republic of Ireland).

Brexit as envisaged by the ERG unilaterally specifically destroys just one half of that balance, namely the rights and opportunities to freely access the Republic of Ireland from Northern Ireland, thus destroying the entire internationally ratified Good Friday Agreement (guaranteed by the USA (at least whose Congress wouldn't stand for it) and by the European Union (ditto, all around)) and walking back the UK's given word in its creation, which would be a great start for any new international negotiations...


That’s an overview of the GFA but you haven’t actually said how we are in violation. I do not see any security borders going up in fact as you are well a aware the ROI/UK concluded a new travel agreement

Klaus wrote:

You'll find that claim to be a lot harder to establish than apparently expected.



If you think that then obviously then there is no need for the backstop and the GFA as that statement seems to suggest that the security situation is stable and will remain the same.

So what is a legitimate security situation you believe would justify a nation invoking the WTO Article XXI Security Exceptions
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:49 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
We’ve had a vote. We do not need another one.


Well.. how long ago was that vote again? What was voted on vs. whats on the table?

The argument "we voted" is hogwash in any case. You also had elections, yet still had a snap election to get a strong mandate for Brexit negotiations. Not just did it fail as we all know, it also proofs conclusively, by your own governments admission, that there is no strong mandate for a Brexit. You sorta wann have a strong mandate before doing something that has effects for at least a generation, or

Is this concept so difficult to understand.
?

And are you another one who think the Brexit party have the same long term ambitions as the Nazi party?


No. While there are those Brexiteers that want to make the UK human rights situation worse than Russia´s, i don´t think that all of UK politics has descended into that pit.
Your rebuttal however is still nonsense.

noviorbis77 wrote:
That’s if we pay the divorce bill.


You have no choice in the matter. You pay in cash, or you pay by diverse transfers. 1.3 trillion USD in assets have already left, 7k jobs in the banking industry alone are following. the 200+ Billion GDP you are not going to have in 10 years will not disappear, that economic activity will go somewhere else, mostly to the continent.

Plus if you don´t pay up your commitments, you default Argentina style. That is going to be loads of fun!

Arguably you already paid a good deal, only it doesn´t count towards that invoice.

Its not like your economy is doing anything but terrible, and you are not even out yet:
Image

Compared to the rest of the EU:
Image

Source: http://tradingeconomics.com

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

That’s if we pay the divorce bill.


Really, do we need to go over that again? Much of it goes to pension plans of MEP or civil servants. So Farage is quite a beneficiary for this with half his life in the EU. And you want to UK to be known as a defaulter, will do great things for your credit rating, thus will be great to pay a higher percentage on your state lones. But as always, unthoughtful line of reasoning.

There are always consequences to your actions.


Well the bill isn't GBP39bn anymore as the UK is currently still paying the EU for its membership.... Thus in essence, th eUK is already paying part of the divorce bill as we speak.

tommy1808 wrote:
Arguably you already paid a good deal, only it doesn´t count towards that invoice.


Slightly incorrect as the bill was set as of end of March 2019 and the amount the UK has paid over the previous 3 months (which will become 7 months) can be subtracted as far as it concerns its contribution to the EU budget.Then again we've a whole number of new MEPs from the UK which may receive an EU pension (unless those of the Brexit Party refuse money from the EU, which I doubt they'll do).
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:42 am

tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
We’ve had a vote. We do not need another one.


Well.. how long ago was that vote again? What was voted on vs. whats on the table?

The argument "we voted" is hogwash in any case. You also had elections, yet still had a snap election to get a strong mandate for Brexit negotiations. Not just did it fail as we all know, it also proofs conclusively, by your own governments admission, that there is no strong mandate for a Brexit. You sorta wann have a strong mandate before doing something that has effects for at least a generation, or

Is this concept so difficult to understand.
?

And are you another one who think the Brexit party have the same long term ambitions as the Nazi party?


No. While there are those Brexiteers that want to make the UK human rights situation worse than Russia´s, i don´t think that all of UK politics has descended into that pit.
Your rebuttal however is still nonsense.

noviorbis77 wrote:
That’s if we pay the divorce bill.


You have no choice in the matter. You pay in cash, or you pay by diverse transfers. 1.3 trillion USD in assets have already left, 7k jobs in the banking industry alone are following. the 200+ Billion GDP you are not going to have in 10 years will not disappear, that economic activity will go somewhere else, mostly to the continent.

Plus if you don´t pay up your commitments, you default Argentina style. That is going to be loads of fun!

Arguably you already paid a good deal, only it doesn´t count towards that invoice.

Its not like your economy is doing anything but terrible, and you are not even out yet:
Image

Compared to the rest of the EU:
Image

Source: http://tradingeconomics.com

best regards
Thomas


What human rights abuses will we see? Please enlighten us all with your expert vision of the future.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:55 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
What human rights abuses will we see? Please enlighten us all with your expert vision of the future.


We'll see, and even you should be able to see that the human right protection will be much less with the EU agreements gone. You will remove a level of citizens protection and many things aren't well founded in UK law. But you all knew this and you want less human right protection because that is what you voted for.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10576
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:02 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
What human rights abuses will we see? Please enlighten us all with your expert vision of the future.


I never said i know what they have in mind, it is just some Brexiteers stated goal to get our of the European Council, and hence the European Convention on Human rights.

LJ wrote:
Slightly incorrect as the bill was set as of end of March 2019 and the amount the UK has paid over the previous 3 months (which will become 7 months) can be subtracted as far as it concerns its contribution to the EU budget.


I was just referring to the money flowing into the rest of the EU by Jobs & Assets leaving across the channel. That is real money for the EU, but non of it counts towards the divorce bill.

Then again we've a whole number of new MEPs from the UK which may receive an EU pension (unless those of the Brexit Party refuse money from the EU, which I doubt they'll do).


hardly so since they accept their salary as well.....
But i guess there is enough UK government property on the continent to foreclose to pay for those in any case.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:21 am

Debt crises Argentina style?

That’s mostly made up of bond holders and trade, where’s the UK majority of it Is contribution to EU annual budgets up to 2020; Payment of outstanding commitments; and financing liabilities up to the end of 2020. After that it’s made up of pensions up to around 2060.

Also divorce bill is not binding until parliament approves the withdrawal agreement and then the only liabilities will be pensions
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:33 am

LJ wrote:
Well the bill isn't GBP39bn anymore as the UK is currently still paying the EU for its membership.... Thus in essence, the UK is already paying part of the divorce bill as we speak.(…) the bill was set as of end of March 2019 and the amount the UK has paid over the previous 3 months (which will become 7 months) can be subtracted as far as it concerns its contribution to the EU budget.Then again we've a whole number of new MEPs from the UK which may receive an EU pension (unless those of the Brexit Party refuse money from the EU, which I doubt they'll do).


The UK is currently paying for its prolonged EU membership indeed, but whereas it hasn't made it into the British press yet because they are too pre-occupied with reporting on the leadership contest in the Tory Party, there's going to be a nasty surprise at the end of it.

One should remember that the 'Brexit bill' consists of 2 parts:
1 - a small sum for the transition period in which the UK would be out of the EU, but still making full use of all the prerogatives of EU membership:
2- a big sum for future liabilities taken on during the UK's membership of the EU, based on the UK's size and membership's length.

Since the UK has effectively extended its membership, the calculation will have to be redone, taking into account many new liabilities which were taken on meanwhile (you've mentioned a bunch of new MEPs as a nice illustration, but there's much more in fact, albeit too technical to explain here now), so this part of the bill will definitely go up significantly.
Also, since the UK isn't any more ready than it was at the end of March, it's in just as much need of a transition period still than it was back then: the cost for that period during which it can continue to make use of its prerogatives simply carries over to the new transition period, whenever it starts... and may go up as well, since costs escalate over time and the running costs of the EU in say 2021, won't be the same as they were estimated to be for 2019 of course.

In short: the exit bill is getting bigger and bigger as time goes by.
TM's government did its very best to present the bill as probably somewhere towards the high end of the thirty billion range, but estimations from Brussels have consistently put it at around 45BN... and problably close to 50BN even, by now.
Such a huge amount of tax payer's money should only be handed over by the British treasury after an explicit direct approval of the British people, IMHO. ;)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:42 am

A101 wrote:
Debt crises Argentina style?

That’s mostly made up of bond holders and trade, where’s the UK majority of it Is contribution to EU annual budgets up to 2020; Payment of outstanding commitments; and financing liabilities up to the end of 2020. After that it’s made up of pensions up to around 2060.

Also divorce bill is not binding until parliament approves the withdrawal agreement and then the only liabilities will be pensions


So your argument is that the financial world is not going to react if the UK defaults on its liabilities? Johnson says he will not pay the 39bn. With a hard Brexit, it ins 12bn less, btw.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3008
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:49 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Debt crises Argentina style?

That’s mostly made up of bond holders and trade, where’s the UK majority of it Is contribution to EU annual budgets up to 2020; Payment of outstanding commitments; and financing liabilities up to the end of 2020. After that it’s made up of pensions up to around 2060.

Also divorce bill is not binding until parliament approves the withdrawal agreement and then the only liabilities will be pensions


So your argument is that the financial world is not going to react if the UK defaults on its liabilities? Johnson says he will not pay the 39bn. With a hard Brexit, it ins 12bn less, btw.


Indeed,
either BoJo doesn't know any facts (in case of hard brexit, the bill is very different as 'component 1' isn't present), OR
he's simply preparing the grounds to subsequenty claim victory when he's going to have to hand over those 27BN then, in stead of the 39BN which have become engraved in to public mindset, even though the figure is not so fixed at all: it's just a British estimation of the agreed calculation method for the money due, and quite an optimistic one, if I may say so: simple truth is nobody really knows how much money we're talking about, because if all MEPs get to live till their 110 for instance, the bill will look very different.
Brexiteers better wish Farage and others not too much good luck in their lives. ;)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:58 am

A101 wrote:
Also divorce bill is not binding until parliament approves the withdrawal agreement and then the only liabilities will be pensions


The divorce bill in itself, yes, but the financial commitments exist independent of it and regardless of whatever the UK parliament does or doesn't do
Agreeing on an amount by negotiations is just a lot less of a hassle than the EU taking the UK to court over each item on the list. And since the EU knows that as well you can bet a couple of billions that the agreed invoice is lower than the sum total.
There is no way to *force* the UK to actually pay, but that is a whole different issue. There was no way to force Argentina to pay, the result is just to default.

However there wont be any trade deal of any sort without paying up ever, so not paying costs hundreds of billions....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1095
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:03 am

prebennorholm wrote:
That a select group of idiots show this sort of disrespect for the EP, that is one thing. But the fact that it didn't trigger an outrage among sensible people back home in the UK, that shows how deeply the UK has sunk into the trash.


What would class as being outraged in a visible sense? Just because it may not be visibly shown doesn't mean people weren't unhappy about it.

My reaction to what they did was "FFS!". If you look on Twitter for example, you will find there were a lot of pro-remainers condemning them.

Klaus wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
I'm sure the UK's turn could still come: BoJo may very well be our next EUCO Pres even!
After failing to take the UK out of Europe and losing the GE to Corbyn, that is. ;)


Perish the thought! Although I'm not sure Corbyn could win an election - he'd have to actually take a position on something ;)

Yeah, he really needs to choose which colour the unicorns are supposed to be which you're absolutely certain to get because that is the only decision that really counts in the UK right now, isn't it? :crazy:


The only certainty you will get from Corbyn is more waffle and flip-flopping whilst Labour continue to demonstrate just how divided they are on the issue and have their head stuck in in the sand over how (un)achievable their supposed alternative policy is.

Loew wrote:
Main question is, whether are these guys going to turn their backs on MEP salary :rotfl:


The answer to that is no. Or at least Jacob Rees-Mogg's sister at least has said she will take her salary.

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
A 'Canada style' type of agreement, right? :spit:
Remember this is just Canada, the easiest-but-one to do a deal with...
that other one of course being the EU itself, according to International Trade Secretary Liam Fox. :stirthepot:
It will be amuzing to see how the rest of the world welcomes British trade negotiators... and takes them to the cleaners. :white:


Not amusing, this is the consequence of a hard Brexit.


Especially when you consider that those of us who didn't vote for this stand to be royally shafted by it and hit us in the pocket.

By all means mock those who voted for this and call them out on their BS claims as they need to be held accountable, but have people forgotten that 16.1m didn't vote for this when sneering at us over it all? :mad:
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 201
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:09 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
How are the Brexit party undemocratic?


1/ The Brexit Party is a not a party in the tradiitonal setup, it is a Limited Company.
2/ There are no members, only people who donate money. Members have no say over the direction of policy.
3/ Nigel Farage is the Director. He has overall control of the 'Party' and there is no way to remove him as you could in a normal party.
4/ They have no manifesto.
5/ They accepted funding through PayPal. The Electoral Comission has told them to check all funds to ensure they only come from UK resident sources. I and most people who don't trust Farage one inch, suspect this was deliberate and they knew full well they were receiving funds from non UK sources. The Electoral Comission's findings, don't go far enough.

Farage is implementing the exact same setup as certain parties in Italy.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9468
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:18 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
By all means mock those who voted for this and call them out on their BS claims as they need to be held accountable, but have people forgotten that 16.1m didn't vote for this when sneering at us over it all? :mad:


The whole Brexit campaign was built on lies, all of it. The Brittish public has been lied to by the Brittish press corps, or at least part of them, Boris Johnson is the perfect example for this of course. And the Brexitremist continue to lie. So blaming the people whom voted for Brexit and radicalized to Brexitremist doesn't help us a bit. Blaming the people whom continue to tell lies - Rees-Mogg, Raab, Johnson, Hunt, Farage are quite vocal in this - should be held responsible for dissolving billions of economic growth, and putting tens of millions at a disadvantage, and this for self-glory and perhaps even more egocentric or economic reasons, but I cannot speculate on that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:23 am

Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
How are the Brexit party undemocratic?


1/ The Brexit Party is a not a party in the tradiitonal setup, it is a Limited Company.
2/ There are no members, only people who donate money. Members have no say over the direction of policy.
3/ Nigel Farage is the Director. He has overall control of the 'Party' and there is no way to remove him as you could in a normal party.
4/ They have no manifesto.
5/ They accepted funding through PayPal. The Electoral Comission has told them to check all funds to ensure they only come from UK resident sources. I and most people who don't trust Farage one inch, suspect this was deliberate and they knew full well they were receiving funds from non UK sources. The Electoral Comission's findings, don't go far enough.

Farage is implementing the exact same setup as certain parties in Italy.


And the PVV - Geert Wilders - in the Netherlands. Perhaps Farage is also funded out of Russia, like some other anti-EU populist parties.

Interesting that a political "party" could be set up as a company, that is quite interesting the reasons why. In The Netherlands, it would not be allowed to run with a company in democratic elections. The law in The Netherlands states that parties without members are funded far less than parties with members, because part of the funding is based on how many members a political party has.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:35 am

The hilarious part is eurosceptics gang (V4 +italy) is outraged there is not a single politician from their gang in the slate of leadership posts. Like if being obnoxious deserved a reward :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
By all means mock those who voted for this and call them out on their BS claims as they need to be held accountable, but have people forgotten that 16.1m didn't vote for this when sneering at us over it all? :mad:


The whole Brexit campaign was built on lies, all of it. The Brittish public has been lied to by the Brittish press corps, or at least part of them, Boris Johnson is the perfect example for this of course. And the Brexitremist continue to lie. So blaming the people whom voted for Brexit and radicalized to Brexitremist doesn't help us a bit. Blaming the people whom continue to tell lies - Rees-Mogg, Raab, Johnson, Hunt, Farage are quite vocal in this - should be held responsible for dissolving billions of economic growth, and putting tens of millions at a disadvantage, and this for self-glory and perhaps even more egocentric or economic reasons, but I cannot speculate on that.


I completely agree, especially when you consider those who may have voted to leave at the time but are now on record saying they would vote to remain if they could turn the clock back or given the choice again.

By the way, my little rant was not aimed at you, as I can see you have sympathy for those of us who didn't vote for this shambles. I just wish a few would stop tarring everyone with the same brush when it comes to Brexit. I think it was Donald Tusk who said a few months ago to not forget about the Brits who want to remain. They are wise words and some ought to take note of this.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
What human rights abuses will we see? Please enlighten us all with your expert vision of the future.


We'll see, and even you should be able to see that the human right protection will be much less with the EU agreements gone. You will remove a level of citizens protection and many things aren't well founded in UK law. But you all knew this and you want less human right protection because that is what you voted for.


Objective evidence please.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
What human rights abuses will we see? Please enlighten us all with your expert vision of the future.


I never said i know what they have in mind, it is just some Brexiteers stated goal to get our of the European Council, and hence the European Convention on Human rights.

LJ wrote:
Slightly incorrect as the bill was set as of end of March 2019 and the amount the UK has paid over the previous 3 months (which will become 7 months) can be subtracted as far as it concerns its contribution to the EU budget.


I was just referring to the money flowing into the rest of the EU by Jobs & Assets leaving across the channel. That is real money for the EU, but non of it counts towards the divorce bill.

Then again we've a whole number of new MEPs from the UK which may receive an EU pension (unless those of the Brexit Party refuse money from the EU, which I doubt they'll do).


hardly so since they accept their salary as well.....
But i guess there is enough UK government property on the continent to foreclose to pay for those in any case.

best regards
Thomas


You clearly said “No. While there are those Brexiteers that want to make the UK human rights situation worse than Russia´s”.


So you now backtrack on this statement?

Or you maintain and provide sourced evidence to back up your claims.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:38 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
How are the Brexit party undemocratic?


1/ The Brexit Party is a not a party in the tradiitonal setup, it is a Limited Company.
2/ There are no members, only people who donate money. Members have no say over the direction of policy.
3/ Nigel Farage is the Director. He has overall control of the 'Party' and there is no way to remove him as you could in a normal party.
4/ They have no manifesto.
5/ They accepted funding through PayPal. The Electoral Comission has told them to check all funds to ensure they only come from UK resident sources. I and most people who don't trust Farage one inch, suspect this was deliberate and they knew full well they were receiving funds from non UK sources. The Electoral Comission's findings, don't go far enough.

Farage is implementing the exact same setup as certain parties in Italy.


People have a democratic choice to vote for them. Their manifesto will be forthcoming. Watch this space.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10576
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
How are the Brexit party undemocratic?


1/ The Brexit Party is a not a party in the tradiitonal setup, it is a Limited Company.
2/ There are no members, only people who donate money. Members have no say over the direction of policy.
3/ Nigel Farage is the Director. He has overall control of the 'Party' and there is no way to remove him as you could in a normal party.
4/ They have no manifesto.
5/ They accepted funding through PayPal. The Electoral Comission has told them to check all funds to ensure they only come from UK resident sources. I and most people who don't trust Farage one inch, suspect this was deliberate and they knew full well they were receiving funds from non UK sources. The Electoral Comission's findings, don't go far enough.

Farage is implementing the exact same setup as certain parties in Italy.


People have a democratic choice to vote for them. Their manifesto will be forthcoming. Watch this space.


another round of "vote for us first, we tell you what we do after".

Weill how did someone from "vote leave" put it when asked, prapharasing: "We learned from Scotland, they honestly told be what to expect and they voted against independence, that is why we don´t tell them".

"Make us your dictator party" is a more ample description. Their behavior in parliament goes down the same road.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

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