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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:30 pm

bennett123 wrote:
If there is no need for a border between the ROI and GB, does that mean that there are no border checks on Eurosta.

After all, both are borders between GB and EU countries.

Yeah but politics / rules / regulations / treaties do not change the fact that there is a body of water between the UK isles and the the EU territories of Ireland and the continent. Yes there is the chunnel but that is a single access point easily controlled.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:27 pm

par13del wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
If there is no need for a border between the ROI and GB, does that mean that there are no border checks on Eurosta.

After all, both are borders between GB and EU countries.

Yeah but politics / rules / regulations / treaties do not change the fact that there is a body of water between the UK isles and the the EU territories of Ireland and the continent. Yes there is the chunnel but that is a single access point easily controlled.


Isn't that his point? That you will need to pass customs etc. when using the Eurostar involving extra infrastructure... If it's like other trains crossing hard borders that I've been on that could mean everyone having to exit the train with their baggage at some facility to be built at one end of the Channel Tunnel (no-one calls it the Chunnel! That name died some time in the early eighties...).
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:35 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
You are the one claiming there will be no border because “ROI came out and said so”, that’s plain wrong.

Well either Foreign Minister Simon Coveney is telling porkies or Padraic Halpin Reuters correspondent misquoted, the choice is you to decide which is which
Grizzly410 wrote:
And if you think in such situation UK will not erect border either you are very wrong too.

The UK's position has been very consistent on the matter from the beginning


If UK position is consistent from the beginning, yours isn't. Look what you said end of 2018...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1406417&start=1600#p20966607
scrimbl wrote:
And what's the solution to the RoI/NI border issue under WTO rules? You need a hard border to implement WTO rules.
A101 wrote:
Both side would like no hard border but if the rules are different there only two answers and both arnt going to be up and running in time.
1) A hard Border
2) Reunification of Ireland


What made you change your mind ?



Research into what actually can be done.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:13 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
What made you change your mind ?

Research into what actually can be done.


Wow, that's some kind of deflection! :lol:
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
What made you change your mind ?

Research into what actually can be done.


Wow, that's some kind of deflection! :lol:


Since you looked back into past threads on the subject and found that, you would have also noticed remain camp stance of supposedly using fact to debunk the “Brexit Myths” now you attempt to chide me for actually doing that, and looking at the facts on WTO rules :rotfl:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:07 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Research into what actually can be done.


Wow, that's some kind of deflection! :lol:


Since you looked back into past threads on the subject and found that, you would have also noticed remain camp stance of supposedly using fact to debunk the “Brexit Myths” now you attempt to chide me for actually doing that, and looking at the facts on WTO rules :rotfl:


WTO rules? Maximum tariffs you mean? Playing in the 3rd division instead of the Premier League? What has go the WTO to do with this? As you perfectly know, the hard border is needed because of protecting the integrity of the internal EU market. Avoiding a hard border is needed to comply with the GFA. So your assessment of December is still valid then as it is today.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

Wow, that's some kind of deflection! :lol:


Since you looked back into past threads on the subject and found that, you would have also noticed remain camp stance of supposedly using fact to debunk the “Brexit Myths” now you attempt to chide me for actually doing that, and looking at the facts on WTO rules :rotfl:


WTO rules? Maximum tariffs you mean? Playing in the 3rd division instead of the Premier League? What has go the WTO to do with this? As you perfectly know, the hard border is needed because of protecting the integrity of the internal EU market. Avoiding a hard border is needed to comply with the GFA. So your assessment of December is still valid then as it is today.


No WTO rules for making exceptions on different borders because of unique circumstances the Irish border my beliefs still stand
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:49 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Since you looked back into past threads on the subject and found that, you would have also noticed remain camp stance of supposedly using fact to debunk the “Brexit Myths” now you attempt to chide me for actually doing that, and looking at the facts on WTO rules :rotfl:


WTO rules? Maximum tariffs you mean? Playing in the 3rd division instead of the Premier League? What has go the WTO to do with this? As you perfectly know, the hard border is needed because of protecting the integrity of the internal EU market. Avoiding a hard border is needed to comply with the GFA. So your assessment of December is still valid then as it is today.


No WTO rules for making exceptions on different borders because of unique circumstances the Irish border my beliefs still stand


In your belief indeed. As I've said, it is the integrity of the EU common market which needs to be protected, so what has got the WTO got to do with that. Or are you a believer in Article 24 nonsense?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

WTO rules? Maximum tariffs you mean? Playing in the 3rd division instead of the Premier League? What has go the WTO to do with this? As you perfectly know, the hard border is needed because of protecting the integrity of the internal EU market. Avoiding a hard border is needed to comply with the GFA. So your assessment of December is still valid then as it is today.


No WTO rules for making exceptions on different borders because of unique circumstances the Irish border my beliefs still stand


In your belief indeed. As I've said, it is the integrity of the EU common market which needs to be protected, so what has got the WTO got to do with that. Or are you a believer in Article 24 nonsense?



Have I brought up GATT Article 24 in the past?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:13 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

No WTO rules for making exceptions on different borders because of unique circumstances the Irish border my beliefs still stand


In your belief indeed. As I've said, it is the integrity of the EU common market which needs to be protected, so what has got the WTO got to do with that. Or are you a believer in Article 24 nonsense?



Have I brought up GATT Article 24 in the past?


Why have you brought up the WTO in connection to the Irish border issue?
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:28 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
but realilty is the UK is going to be in a very a weak position regarding ALL of its future trade negotiations - not just those with the EU - regardless the WA.

I have to disagree here - negotiations with other nations will not have the animosity and malevolence.displayed like the current relations of the EU/UK

That's actually the whole issue, isn't?
The fact that there's just too much animosity over and malevolence towards the EU which first needs to be vented from the UK.
It's understandable, given the fact this has been builing up for over 40 years... Just don't let it take the upper hand, would be my advice.
Contrary to the high hopes of all those who didn't just want to leave the EU, but rather to simply distroy it with Brexit, the EU will be very much part of Britain's future long after the UK will have left, so let's make sure not to fight needless battles with it just to feel better: Britain will still need its valued help!

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Indeed, so a TCA is exactly as the WA then in fact, isnt it?

No - once the backstop provisions are enacted in the WA it becomes an international treaty with no unilateral exit clause built in only with joint consent can the UK leave. The UK will be bound to comply with it under international law, regardless of the wishes of a future government or Parliament hence it binds our successor

And that's a problem to you?
Britain is bound by tons of international law binding future governments and parliaments, you know?
Or are you going to void all those too, then?
As I've said before, the FTA Britain hopes to sign will be on the same terms as those contained in the WA anyway (or there won't be a FTA signed at all), so all of this is a silly 'chicken or egg' story about what came first... unless the aim of all those objecting to the WA is also not to sign the FTA at all? But then it needs to be said so, now.

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Where's the guarantee that those countries will be willing to replace those TCAs quickly and fairly with FTAs on those mythical better terms?

Their is none, that's why they are called negotiations

Yet the EU is the only party willing to almost guarantee the UK its TCA (aka the WA) is of a temporary nature only, yet their word isn't good enough for it?
Because it's just 'almost' and it needs to be made an absolute guarantee? Because it's the EU after all, and so this extra standard goes for them alone?
Seriously, it's becoming insulting almost to nations which are still to be Britain's most important trading partners AND often also security partners in NATO in future!

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
What you say about the WA and the FTA with the EU that is supposed to succeed it, goes for any of those TCAs just as well, you know?

No, routinely free trade agreement will either have a time limit built in where both parties have to agree to continue or contain termination clauses, where no such mechanism is built in then Article 56 Denunciation of or withdrawal from a treaty containing no provision regarding termination, from the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969 can be invoked, this provision does not apply to the WA as the treaty expressly saus the UK cannot leave without consent from both parties

.Of all the TCAs signed so far, just ONE contains a meaningful time limit, and that is only because the Koreans wanted to be able to put maximum pressure on the UK to extract better terms than they currently enjoy, immediately after Brexit.
Excuse me saying, but aren't you just comforting yourself with the illusion of having a free choice as an expression of sovereignty?

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Seriously, if I were an MP, it'd vote for the TCA with the EU, called the WA, asap, to avoid even greater humiliation later!

That's because you are looking thru rose tinted glasses

Maybe I am, but you're clearly looking at the EU through some very dark glasses then, something which is remarkable as the EU hasn't treated the UK badly in any way during its 45 years of membership, nor is is currenly displaying the same level as rancor and hatred as is on public display by British officials towards the EU for simply standing up for the economic interests of the remaining 27 members in the same way as it has done for British trade interests in the past (and still does today)… it might have been better if this would have been noticed by those officials, as it would mean they'd have been less delusioned about their own 'strengths' and who knows, the British public would have more appreciated the work of 'eurocrats'... even if it would have ment they'd probably have had less appreciation for the great work of their MPs… which are obviously so much more fantastic at it all (hence Brexit has been such a stellar success so far).
Last edited by sabenapilot on Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:12 am

sabenapilot wrote:

That's actually the whole issue, isn't?


No

sabenapilot wrote:

The fact that there's just too much animosity over and malevolence towards the EU which first needs to be vented from the UK.



I think there is too much heat in the debate which translates into frustration on both sides of the negotiations parties. Overall I don’t have much faith in the 2 contenders for the top job either, but to get the nation moving forward we need to leave on exit day (31 Oct)

sabenapilot wrote:

Contrary to the high hopes of all those who didn't just want to leave the EU, but rather to simply distroy it with Brexit,



What you think those that choose to leave the EU wants to see the destruction of the EU, is that what you are say? ..........if so no I don’t believe so I believe if it suit your needs than that’s a decision for you and your countrymen to decide.

sabenapilot wrote:

the EU will be very much part of Britain's future long after the UK will have left,



Agree that there will be a continuation friendship, just not as part of an ever closer union

sabenapilot wrote:
Britain is bound by tons of international law binding future governments and parliaments, you know?
Or are you going to void all those too, then?



Of course not, the main point of difference is that we can freely leave those international treaties, with the WA once the backstop is invoked we can no longer freely leave the EU

sabenapilot wrote:

As I've said before, the FTA Britain hopes to sign will be on the same terms as those contained in the WA anyway (or there won't be a FTA signed at all), so all of this is a silly 'chicken or egg' story about what came first... unless the aim of all those objecting to the WA is also not to sign the FTA at all? But then it needs to be said so, now.


??? The future relationship hasn’t been negotiated yet.

sabenapilot wrote:

Yet the EU is the only party willing to almost guarantee the UK its TCA (aka the WA) is of a temporary nature only, yet their word isn't good enough for it?



If the EU’s word is your guarantee then why not have a time limit on the Backstop?

sabenapilot wrote:
Because it's just 'almost' and it needs to be made an absolute guarantee? Because it's the EU after all, and so this extra standard goes for them alone?



Nothing to do with it because it’s the EU, Because what’s written in black and white in a legally binding international treaty, is a lot different than what written in a non-binding political declaration

sabenapilot wrote:

Seriously, it's becoming insulting almost to nations which are still to be Britain's most important trading partners AND often also security partners in NATO in future!



How so?

sabenapilot wrote:

Of all the TCAs signed so far, just ONE contains a meaningful time limit, and that is only because the Koreans wanted to be able to put maximum pressure on the UK to extract better terms than they currently enjoy, immediately after Brexit.



If the Koreans think that it is to their advantage good luck to them

sabenapilot wrote:

Excuse me saying, but aren't you just comforting yourself with the illusion of having a free choice as an expression of sovereignty?



No

sabenapilot wrote:

Maybe I am, but you're clearly looking at the EU through some very dark glasses then, something which is remarkable as the EU hasn't treated the UK badly in any way during its 45 years of membership, nor is is currenly displaying the same level as rancor and hatred as is on public display by British officials towards the EU for simply standing up for the economic interests of the remaining 27 members in the same way as it has done for British trade interests in the past (and still does today)… it might have been better if this would have been noticed by those officials, as it would mean they'd have been less delusioned about their own 'strengths' and who knows, the British public would have more appreciated the work of 'eurocrats'... even if it would have ment they'd probably have had less appreciation for the great work of their MPs… which are obviously so much more fantastic at it all (hence Brexit has been such a stellar success so far).




Each to the own views, one mans trash one mans treasure
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In your belief indeed. As I've said, it is the integrity of the EU common market which needs to be protected, so what has got the WTO got to do with that. Or are you a believer in Article 24 nonsense?



Have I brought up GATT Article 24 in the past?


Why have you brought up the WTO in connection to the Irish border issue?



WTO is trade based we are dealing with trade that will be between two sovereign nations.

In this case there are unique circumstance in dealing with the GFA whilst not a trade agreement there are fundamentally conditions that both sides of the border would like to retain. As there are actually no set of rules that preclude a border their are regulations which may hamper the ability to keep the border frictionless as possible, namely the MFN rule it’s not just tariffs based but conditions as well.

It has been widely acknowledged that putting customs check points in may jeopardise the peace process for the GFA. BJ is wrong in his assertions on GATT Article 24 what ever the tariffs are between ROI/NI is not a function that would be handled at the border anyhow those transactions will be done electronically for which the border is now.

Thomas and I had a discussion on this not long ago and because of the unique circumstances using Article XXI Security Exceptions can be invoked to have different border controls for claiming “essential national security” International law does recognise that nations have the right to override their obligations to defend the national security interests, and clearly by the GFA as part of the peace process was the dismantling of the armed security checkpoints and manned by the military on the border. These different border controls will only be applicable to the Irish border.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:56 am

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

The fact that there's just too much animosity over and malevolence towards the EU which first needs to be vented from the UK.



I think there is too much heat in the debate which translates into frustration on both sides of the negotiations parties. Overall I don’t have much faith in the 2 contenders for the top job either, but to get the nation moving forward we need to leave on exit day (31 Oct)


I guess falling off the cliff is also moving forward. :roll:

Let me summarize it:
- a hard border without visual aids between Ireland and Northern Ireland is something which can be done now, 31st of October, even though it hasn't been shown to, but you want to believe 1 expert which says so.
- each and every expert that says that a hard Brexit will be hugely damaging is not to be believed by you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:09 am

A101 wrote:
WTO is trade based we are dealing with trade that will be between two sovereign nations.

In this case there are unique circumstance in dealing with the GFA whilst not a trade agreement there are fundamentally conditions that both sides of the border would like to retain. As there are actually no set of rules that preclude a border their are regulations which may hamper the ability to keep the border frictionless as possible, namely the MFN rule it’s not just tariffs based but conditions as well.

It has been widely acknowledged that putting customs check points in may jeopardise the peace process for the GFA. BJ is wrong in his assertions on GATT Article 24 what ever the tariffs are between ROI/NI is not a function that would be handled at the border anyhow those transactions will be done electronically for which the border is now.

Thomas and I had a discussion on this not long ago and because of the unique circumstances using Article XXI Security Exceptions can be invoked to have different border controls for claiming “essential national security” International law does recognise that nations have the right to override their obligations to defend the national security interests, and clearly by the GFA as part of the peace process was the dismantling of the armed security checkpoints and manned by the military on the border. These different border controls will only be applicable to the Irish border.


Ok, now you want the EU to grand the UK the most favoured nation status? :lol: Why would the EU do this? Has the UK earned it somehow?
Ireland can't do this on their own for the entire EU. And that doesn't solve anything, the EU will not allow a back door between the EU and a 3rd country.

Like I said, you are exporting your Brexit problems to Ireland/EU batting that the EU/Ireland finds the GFA worth protecting.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:50 am

Dutchy wrote:

I guess falling off the cliff is also moving forward. :roll:


I guess there’s no flies on you

Dutchy wrote:
Let me summarize it:
- a hard border without visual aids between Ireland and Northern Ireland is something which can be done now, 31st of October, even though it hasn't been shown to, but you want to believe 1 expert which says so.



Easy on the embellishments please.........can you show me were is said that


Dutchy wrote:
- each and every expert that says that a hard Brexit will be hugely damaging is not to be believed by you.



You can verify that statement..........this will be interesting
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:57 am

Dutchy wrote:

Ok, now you want the EU to grand the UK the most favoured nation status? :lol: Why would the EU do this? Has the UK earned it somehow?
Ireland can't do this on their own for the entire EU. And that doesn't solve anything, the EU will not allow a back door between the EU and a 3rd country.


In that post did I actually say anything about the ROI side of the border, what you do on ROI territory is a matter for the ROI


Dutchy wrote:
Like I said, you are exporting your Brexit problems to Ireland/EU batting that the EU/Ireland finds the GFA worth protecting.



And you can continue sprouting that line for all your hearts content.... doesn’t make it righteous
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:16 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
- a hard border without visual aids between Ireland and Northern Ireland is something which can be done now, 31st of October, even though it hasn't been shown to, but you want to believe 1 expert which says so.



Easy on the embellishments please.........can you show me were is said that


You are sure that the border problem can be solved when the UK leaves the EU and you want the UK crashing out in October. So if we agree that the border issue will not be solved by 31st October, what then?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:23 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, now you want the EU to grand the UK the most favoured nation status? :lol: Why would the EU do this? Has the UK earned it somehow?
Ireland can't do this on their own for the entire EU. And that doesn't solve anything, the EU will not allow a back door between the EU and a 3rd country.


In that post did I actually say anything about the ROI side of the border, what you do on ROI territory is a matter for the ROI


So you acknowledge the FNS doesn't solve anything, so why mention it?

Dutchy wrote:
Like I said, you are exporting your Brexit problems to Ireland/EU batting that the EU/Ireland finds the GFA worth protecting.




And you can continue sprouting that line for all your hearts content.... doesn’t make it righteous[/quote]

Given your exporting the Brexit problem, the GFA doesn't seem high on your agenda. But given you are on record you don't care if Northern Ireland leaves your union (or Scotland), it is hardly surprising from you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
- a hard border without visual aids between Ireland and Northern Ireland is something which can be done now, 31st of October, even though it hasn't been shown to, but you want to believe 1 expert which says so.



Easy on the embellishments please.........can you show me were is said that


You are sure that the border problem can be solved when the UK leaves the EU and you want the UK crashing out in October. So if we agree that the border issue will not be solved by 31st October, what then?


It’s a matter of public record the position that the UKGov on border checks, if that changes under a new PM remains to be seen.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:19 am

Dutchy wrote:

So you acknowledge the FNS doesn't solve anything, so why mention it?



I vaguely remember someone objecting to selective quoting.... I suggest you go back and put the MFN in context



Dutchy wrote:
Given your exporting the Brexit problem, the GFA doesn't seem high on your agenda. But given you are on record you don't care if Northern Ireland leaves your union (or Scotland), it is hardly surprising from you.



:yawn:
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:26 pm

A101 wrote:
I think there is too much heat in the debate which translates into frustration on both sides of the negotiations parties. Overall I don’t have much faith in the 2 contenders for the top job either, but to get the nation moving forward we need to leave on exit day (31 Oct)


A Barnier type of person would do the UK well, because you got to give it to the EU: they have an EXCELLENT chief negotiator: he's on the job, into the details and sticking to facts only, leaving out the high emotions both during the press moments as well as behind closed doors…
Compare that to the whole set of people who have sat at the opposite end of the table with him so far and who have made a complete fool of themselves as well as the country they were representing!
It would do Britain well to take the negotiations out of the hands of politicians and get their own chief negotiator from outside of the political spectrum, maybe even out of the UK.

A101 wrote:
You think those that choose to leave the EU wants to see the destruction of the EU, is that what you are say?

No, certainly not (all/most of) those who chose it, but certainly some and many of those who propagated the idea initially.
It's a well documented fact: just read through the comments of Brexiteers of the first hour like Farage for instance to see the ideal outcome was not really Brexit itself, but rather the end of the EU: it would have solved much of the problems Britain now faces and might also explain why the post-Brexit phase wasn't well thought through, because in the hopes of those people, there would be no longer an EU to deal with.

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
the EU will be very much part of Britain's future long after the UK will have left,

Agree that there will be a continuation friendship, just not as part of an ever closer union

Which by the way wouldn't have been the case as a EU member either, given the opt out granted on that front...
But to some, even a continued friendship is already too much to bear as an idea however: how else explain the irrestible drive to try to insult the EU verbally and/or visibly at all possible occasions (see the Brexit party show during their swearing in in Strasbourg for instace): it's completely uncalled for since the UK is leaving and it proves a clear rancor in their harts which you will not find on the EU side: no official has insulted the British democratic institutions, the Queen nor the flag.
You don't treat a friend, ally and a partner like it's some sort of a banana-republic without any self-esteem!

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
The EU is the only party willing to almost guarantee the UK its TCA (aka the WA) is of a temporary nature only, yet their word isn't good enough for it?

If the EU’s word is your guarantee then why not have a time limit on the Backstop?

Is the UK willing to guarantee it will sign up to this FTA to end the WA?
Are you willing to bind the next parliament on that commitment? ;)
Then I'm sure a date can be enshrined in the WA...
No big deal even, but then the UK will have to offer a similar guarantee too of course.
So far it hasn't been willing to do so, which is fueling suspicion that it won't be willing to sign such a FTA (European nation type that is) once it takes knowlegde of the conditions in it.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:24 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

A Barnier type of person would do the UK well, because you got to give it to the EU: they have an EXCELLENT chief negotiator: he's on the job, into the details and sticking to facts only, leaving out the high emotions both during the press moments as well as behind closed doors…




I actually have said this in the past on these boards, and Farage has actually said it to him as well apparently

sabenapilot wrote:

Which by the way wouldn't have been the case as a EU member either, given the opt out granted on that front...



I'm not sure to what you are referring to here, can you clarify please

sabenapilot wrote:

Is the UK willing to guarantee it will sign up to this FTA to end the WA?
Are you willing to bind the next parliament on that commitment? ;)
Then I'm sure a date can be enshrined in the WA...
No big deal even, but then the UK will have to offer a similar guarantee too of course.
So far it hasn't been willing to do so, which is fueling suspicion that it won't be willing to sign such a FTA (European nation type that is) once it takes knowlegde of the conditions in it.



Can you show a single treaty that the EU can’t leave voluntarily without the consent of a third party nation.

All EU treaties will have an exit clause of some description
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:16 am

zkojq wrote:
A101 wrote:
the Irish government placed more police and defence personal at check points at the border than the UK did at the height of the troubles.

Source please

Still waiting for a source on this one...


Dutchy wrote:
Anyhow, if you want the border be as it is now, yes both sides needs to have the same regime, not too hard to understand.

We're 39 pages into the sixth Brexit thread and he's still no closer to wrapping his mind around that fact. :banghead: You can repeat inconvenient facts as often as you like, but Brexitards will simply file each and every one them away under "project fear" if it doesn't match with their worldview.
First to fly the 787-9
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:07 am

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
A Barnier type of person would do the UK well, because you got to give it to the EU: they have an EXCELLENT chief negotiator: he's on the job, into the details and sticking to facts only, leaving out the high emotions both during the press moments as well as behind closed doors…

I actually have said this in the past on these boards, and Farage has actually said it to him as well apparently

I know you did, but meanwhile the UK could to be moving in the opposite direction, even considering appointing political ambassadors now.

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Which by the way wouldn't have been the case as a EU member either, given the opt out granted on that front.

I'm not sure to what you are referring to here, can you clarify please

I'm refering to the fact the UK was not supposed to participate in the concept of an ever closer union as a EU member any longer, as per opt-out secured by DC just prior to the referendum.
It might have gone unnoticed in the campaign, and it is yet another one of the elements of a potential solution to the current mess which has long been forgotten, but there are a whole lot of building blocks which have been put on the desk of the UK by the EU to build its future with Europe with.
However, as the position of those in power keeps on hardening, they seem to have wiped all of them aside without having anything to replace them with.

One of the building blocks which has not been picked up, but might still be interesting nevertheless, is the one in which the EU initially offered the UK to have the backstop apply only to NI.
It was first accepted and later dropped again by the British government, not because of Tory opposition, but DUP opposition, even though it would have ment both NI as well as the rest of the UK would have been able to carry on on the basis of what their people had wanted, protected the GFA and allowed the UK to persue that all important independent trade policy.
In scenarios where the DUP is no longer needed to prop up a Tory government, what is there to prevent this idea to resurface?
A BoJo lead government seems likely to be brought down rather quickly, meaning new majorities could come into play...

Another idea from the EU is that the UK needn't pick its FINAL position from the famous slide on the different stages of EU collaboration yet.
The UK could for instance decide to just drop down one step (to the Norway+ model) by the end of October, thus honnouring it promise to leave, while at the same time and due to the nature of this model, avoid having to sign up to the contentious issues surrounding the backstop contained within the WA.
It can then take its time to sort out whether it wants to remain at that stage, or drop down further on the ladder of integration, all while building a majority at home for whatever it takes in return to be able to take any such further step(s).
Such a phased approach to Brexit would certainly avoid a disruptive cliffedge and would guarantee there's always a majority for each step taken as well as the end stage, while it would also allow for a more organically shaped outcome than the rather binary and undefined approach which has been taken ever since the referendum and which is leading to a complete gridlock.
Of course, it does mean that the discussion about Europe isn't likely going to go away soon in the UK, but the idea that it would otherwise have been off the frontpages in case of a hard Brexit, is quite fanciful anyway, so it doesn't really change a lot either in real life.

A101 wrote:
Can you show a single treaty that the EU can’t leave voluntarily without the consent of a third party nation.
All EU treaties will have an exit clause of some description

You're ill-informed if you think that is the case!
The most well-known EU treaty without an exit clause is the one on the introduction of the euro!
As Mario Draghi notoriously had to remind the markets with a now very famous quote: "the euro is IRREVERSIBLE and the ECB stands ready to do whatever it takes to prove that... and believe me: when we act, it will be enough"
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:12 pm

A101 wrote:
Can you show a single treaty that the EU can’t leave voluntarily without the consent of a third party nation.

You know, EU doesn’t want the backstop to be permanent either, PROTOCOL ON IRELAND/NORTHERN IRELAND art 1, the objectives, make it clear. As you rightfully said, “what’s written in black and white in a legally binding international treaty, is a lot different than what written in a non-binding political declaration”. ;) The Brextremist leaders use the “backstop trap” to promote no-deal as the only solution but EU leaders (and law) said it wasn’t desired at all.

In case you don’t recall the WA mechanism : when one party consider the backstop is no longer necessary it needs to explain the reason to the Joint Committee. The JC can than decide if the reason are good enough and if the protocol can cease to apply.
If there is no agreement from the JC and the party disagree then it will follow the dispute settlement path established and finish in ECJ hands. (In advance, based on the unilateral revocation ruling last year, frankly, I don’t think you can call the ECJ biased towards the EU)

sabenapilot wrote:
One of the building blocks which has not been picked up, but might still be interesting nevertheless, is the one in which the EU initially offered the UK to have the backstop apply only to NI.
It was first accepted and later dropped again by the British government, not because of Tory opposition, but DUP opposition, even though it would have ment both NI as well as the rest of the UK would have been able to carry on on the basis of what their people had wanted, protected the GFA and allowed the UK to persue that all important independent trade policy.
In scenarios where the DUP is no longer needed to prop up a Tory government, what is there to prevent this idea to resurface?

Maybe EU would accept to reopen the WA for such a change, if UK PM can confirm it would bring majority in UK Parliament that would be some kind of win-win scenario. For EU it’s going back to its own proposal, the Northern Ireland Specific backstop, for UK the new PM a political win at home claiming he managed to re-open the deal “as promised”, and for everybody open the way to ratify the WA and finally go on in the next stage ?!

sabenapilot wrote:
Another idea from the EU is that the UK needn't pick its FINAL position from the famous slide on the different stages of EU collaboration yet.
The UK could for instance decide to just drop down one step (to the Norway+ model) by the end of October, thus honoring it promise to leave, while at the same time and due to the nature of this model, avoid having to sign up to the contentious issues surrounding the backstop contained within the WA.
It can then take its time to sort out whether it wants to remain at that stage, or drop down further on the ladder of integration, all while building a majority at home for whatever it takes in return to be able to take any such further step(s).

Seems rather rational but I’m afraid have few chance of happening : the WA would have to be signed as is first for such an outcome.
Where I very much agree it’s that we are waiting to know what UK wants as long term future relationship with EU. For me that’s one of the big mistake of UK in the whole process : trigger art50 and engage in negotiation without having a clear realistic outcome in mind, without a simple domestic politic consensus on the matter and the support from businesses and obviously as said above without a structured negotiation team. (remember the disastrous picture on one meeting between M. Barnier team on one side , full of folders and document and Davis Davis on the other side with its bare hand !)

The solution could lay in the sum of these two actually.
WA reopened for a NI specific backstop to convince the hardliners to go for the WA, Political Declaration going for a Norway model as a first step to convince the soft brexiters :stirthepot:

I don’t believe one second in that, at least not for the next deadline. After an ultimate extension a bit more.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
agill
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:23 pm

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/16/the-trade-remedy-problem-brexit-no-deal-plan-in-disarray A positive side effect of the whole brexit thing is that you learn about problems that you really haven't thought much about before.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:21 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
One of the building blocks which has not been picked up, but might still be interesting nevertheless, is the one in which the EU initially offered the UK to have the backstop apply only to NI.
It was first accepted and later dropped again by the British government, not because of Tory opposition, but DUP opposition, even though it would have ment both NI as well as the rest of the UK would have been able to carry on on the basis of what their people had wanted, protected the GFA and allowed the UK to persue that all important independent trade policy.
In scenarios where the DUP is no longer needed to prop up a Tory government, what is there to prevent this idea to resurface?

Maybe EU would accept to reopen the WA for such a change, if UK PM can confirm it would bring majority in UK Parliament that would be some kind of win-win scenario. For EU it’s going back to its own proposal, the Northern Ireland Specific backstop, for UK the new PM a political win at home claiming he managed to re-open the deal “as promised”, and for everybody open the way to ratify the WA and finally go on in the next stage ?!

So to be clear, we are ok with the principle of the EU all nations standing up in support of Ireland, but not with the UK standing up for the ROI?
If placing the border in the Irish Sea works, fine, somehow I suspect that more than the DUP were against that option, time will tell.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:42 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

One of the building blocks which has not been picked up, but might still be interesting nevertheless, is the one in which the EU initially offered the UK to have the backstop apply only to NI.
It was first accepted and later dropped again by the British government, not because of Tory opposition, but DUP opposition, even though it would have ment both NI as well as the rest of the UK would have been able to carry on on the basis of what their people had wanted, protected the GFA and allowed the UK to persue that all important independent trade policy.
In scenarios where the DUP is no longer needed to prop up a Tory government, what is there to prevent this idea to resurface?
A BoJo lead government seems likely to be brought down rather quickly, meaning new majorities could come into play...

Another idea from the EU is that the UK needn't pick its FINAL position from the famous slide on the different stages of EU collaboration yet.
The UK could for instance decide to just drop down one step (to the Norway+ model) by the end of October, thus honnouring it promise to leave, while at the same time and due to the nature of this model, avoid having to sign up to the contentious issues surrounding the backstop contained within the WA.
It can then take its time to sort out whether it wants to remain at that stage, or drop down further on the ladder of integration, all while building a majority at home for whatever it takes in return to be able to take any such further step(s).
Such a phased approach to Brexit would certainly avoid a disruptive cliffedge and would guarantee there's always a majority for each step taken as well as the end stage, while it would also allow for a more organically shaped outcome than the rather binary and undefined approach which has been taken ever since the referendum and which is leading to a complete gridlock.
Of course, it does mean that the discussion about Europe isn't likely going to go away soon in the UK, but the idea that it would otherwise have been off the frontpages in case of a hard Brexit, is quite fanciful anyway, so it doesn't really change a lot either in real life.




All those would have been pursuant to signing the WA, the whole point the reason for the backstop in the 1st place was that Brussels refused to negotiate the future relationship in parallel, all those possabile solutions do not take into account that if the UK want to move away from those in the future the backstop would apply.


sabenapilot wrote:

You're ill-informed if you think that is the case!
The most well-known EU treaty without an exit clause is the one on the introduction of the euro!
As Mario Draghi notoriously had to remind the markets with a now very famous quote: "the euro is IRREVERSIBLE and the ECB stands ready to do whatever it takes to prove that... and believe me: when we act, it will be enough"



Whilst being a member it is hard but not impossible. in theory the ECB could expel them from the euro but there would be a huge crisis going on at the time and of course there is the option of withdrawal from the EU under Article 50 so you are not entirely correct. Not easy but doable
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:12 pm

Democracy well in place in the EU today.

A new EU commissioner that the public have no say in, is elected as the only name on the ballot box that MEPs get to vote on.

Democracy in action.

107 days to go.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:30 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Democracy well in place in the EU today.

A new EU commissioner that the public have no say in, is elected as the only name on the ballot box that MEPs get to vote on.

Democracy in action.

107 days to go.


Better than 0,5% of the people voting for the next PM. Or blocking Parliament form doing their job.
Today, EU Parliament voted in favor of the candidate put forward, perfectly democratically.

So wouldn't compare the two, it doesn't work in your favor.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Democracy well in place in the EU today.

A new EU commissioner that the public have no say in, is elected as the only name on the ballot box that MEPs get to vote on.

Democracy in action.

107 days to go.


Better than 0,5% of the people voting for the next PM. Or blocking Parliament form doing their job.
Today, EU Parliament voted in favor of the candidate put forward, perfectly democratically.

So wouldn't compare the two, it doesn't work in your favor.


You can’t say the UK system is crap, but ours is marginally better so its alright.

If you genuinely think the appointment of this German is perfectly democratic, then I just give up. You clearly cannot be reasoned with.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:39 pm

agill wrote:
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/07/16/the-trade-remedy-problem-brexit-no-deal-plan-in-disarray A positive side effect of the whole brexit thing is that you learn about problems that you really haven't thought much about before.


Yes, a hard Brexit is a world of hurt. Anybody wanting out by the 31st of October wants a hard Brexit, there is no time to renegotiate something. How could you renegotiate a deal if it couldn't be done in almost 3 years?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:50 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Democracy well in place in the EU today.

A new EU commissioner that the public have no say in, is elected as the only name on the ballot box that MEPs get to vote on.

Democracy in action.

107 days to go.


Better than 0,5% of the people voting for the next PM. Or blocking Parliament form doing their job.
Today, EU Parliament voted in favor of the candidate put forward, perfectly democratically.

So wouldn't compare the two, it doesn't work in your favor.


You can’t say the UK system is crap, but ours is marginally better so its alright.


I didn't say that, now did I.

noviorbis77 wrote:
If you genuinely think the appointment of this German is perfectly democratic, then I just give up. You clearly cannot be reasoned with.


Far from perfect, but much better than the UK system and that's the point. The EU system is democratically legitimized, both directly chosen Members of Parlement approved of her with a majority and Heads of Governments (democratically legitimized by their own Parliament). So twice legitimized.

Now the UK system, they let their Members of Parlement, not even the majority at the moment, choose two and let 0,5% of the voters vote for there two for the next Prime Minister. As I have explained, not in the same league, so please don't use that argument anymore, it makes you look quite silly.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:23 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

You know, EU doesn’t want the backstop to be permanent either, PROTOCOL ON IRELAND/NORTHERN IRELAND art 1, the objectives, make it clear. As you rightfully said, “what’s written in black and white in a legally binding international treaty, is a lot different than what written in a non-binding political declaration”. ;) The Brextremist leaders use the “backstop trap” to promote no-deal as the only solution but EU leaders (and law) said it wasn’t desired at all.

In case you don’t recall the WA mechanism : when one party consider the backstop is no longer necessary it needs to explain the reason to the Joint Committee. The JC can than decide if the reason are good enough and if the protocol can cease to apply.
If there is no agreement from the JC and the party disagree then it will follow the dispute settlement path established and finish in ECJ hands. (In advance, based on the unilateral revocation ruling last year, frankly, I don’t think you can call the ECJ biased towards the EU)



Yes I a’m awere of all that, and it still leaves the UK with no unilateral mechanism to leave the treaty voluntarily, this joint Committee has to agree and then and only then it can be taken to arbitration via the ECJ as we are still bound by EU rules these will hardly be biased towards the UK

The words “joint decision” do not mean that somehow there is a friendly discussion in which a consensus view is reached. This give to the EU a complete and unqualified right to veto the UK’s exit from the agreement.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:22 am

A101 wrote:
Yes I a’m awere of all that, and it still leaves the UK with no unilateral mechanism to leave the treaty voluntarily, this joint Committee has to agree and then and only then it can be taken to arbitration via the ECJ as we are still bound by EU rules these will hardly be biased towards the UK

The words “joint decision” do not mean that somehow there is a friendly discussion in which a consensus view is reached. This give to the EU a complete and unqualified right to veto the UK’s exit from the agreement.

All this time you're talking about the UK taking back its word given on an internationally ratified peace treaty.

And the disturbing thing is that this doesn't even register with you as something that might be problematic in any way, especially in light of an isolated post-Brexit UK desperately needing the trust and confidence of its presumptive negotiating partners in the near future.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:43 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
If you genuinely think the appointment of this German is perfectly democratic, then I just give up. You clearly cannot be reasoned with.


Far from perfect, but much better than the UK system and that's the point. .


Most importantly, she isn´t appointed to lead the EU. She is voted in. I hate that that professional liar with zero accomplishments on her CV was Peter principled into that job, but she still wasn´t appointed. Lets just hope she rises to the occasion and doesn´t f*ck it up like everything else she touched.

par13del wrote:
So to be clear, we are ok with the principle of the EU all nations standing up in support of Ireland, but not with the UK standing up for the ROI?
If placing the border in the Irish Sea works, fine, somehow I suspect that more than the DUP were against that option, time will tell.


How is creating a situation in which there will a) be a border between both parts of Ireland or b) trade between the two parts is made harder over diverging rules and standards in the interest of the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland for that matter? The best interest of the RoI and NI would be to call of Brexit or to align the post-leave UK to a degree that has no negative effects on the Republic or Ireland or NI, wouldn´t it??

So far the UKs position vs. both parts of Ireland seems to be "Well, we don´t really want to hurt you, but if that gets in the way of our precious Brexit.... well... sorry... screw you!".

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:17 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yes I a’m awere of all that, and it still leaves the UK with no unilateral mechanism to leave the treaty voluntarily, this joint Committee has to agree and then and only then it can be taken to arbitration via the ECJ as we are still bound by EU rules these will hardly be biased towards the UK

The words “joint decision” do not mean that somehow there is a friendly discussion in which a consensus view is reached. This give to the EU a complete and unqualified right to veto the UK’s exit from the agreement.

All this time you're talking about the UK taking back its word given on an internationally ratified peace treaty.

And the disturbing thing is that this doesn't even register with you as something that might be problematic in any way, especially in light of an isolated post-Brexit UK desperately needing the trust and confidence of its presumptive negotiating partners in the near future.



No we haven’t gone back on our word at all, the UK has for all intent and purpose will honour the agreement, it is Brussels insisting on placeing a custom control point at the border, even ROI have came out and said they do not want to put in a customs border.


Taoiseach Varadkar has said Government looking at port checks on whole island in no-deal Brexit-livestock from any port within the Island including from inside NI. Seems to me the only speed bump for the GFA is Brussels not the ROI/UK

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... 7?mode=amp
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:47 am

A101 wrote:
All this time you're talking about the UK taking back its word given on an internationally ratified peace treaty.

And the disturbing thing is that this doesn't even register with you as something that might be problematic in any way, especially in light of an isolated post-Brexit UK desperately needing the trust and confidence of its presumptive negotiating partners in the near future.



No we haven’t gone back on our word at all, the UK has for all intent and purpose will honour the agreement, it is Brussels insisting on placeing a custom control point at the border, even ROI have came out and said they do not want to put in a customs border.


Taoiseach Varadkar has said Government looking at port checks on whole island in no-deal Brexit-livestock from any port within the Island including from inside NI. Seems to me the only speed bump for the GFA is Brussels not the ROI/UK

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... 7?mode=amp[/quote]

Still, haven't wrapped your head around it, I see. Nobody wants to, but it is a consequence of your decision, exporting the problem, childish behavior - you solve it. Simplistic that you put the ball in the EU court, we could justifiably say that if the UK would have signed the WA, the problem would have been solved.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:17 am

par13del wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
One of the building blocks which has not been picked up, but might still be interesting nevertheless, is the one in which the EU initially offered the UK to have the backstop apply only to NI.
It was first accepted and later dropped again by the British government, not because of Tory opposition, but DUP opposition, even though it would have ment both NI as well as the rest of the UK would have been able to carry on on the basis of what their people had wanted, protected the GFA and allowed the UK to persue that all important independent trade policy.
In scenarios where the DUP is no longer needed to prop up a Tory government, what is there to prevent this idea to resurface?

Maybe EU would accept to reopen the WA for such a change, if UK PM can confirm it would bring majority in UK Parliament that would be some kind of win-win scenario. For EU it’s going back to its own proposal, the Northern Ireland Specific backstop, for UK the new PM a political win at home claiming he managed to re-open the deal “as promised”, and for everybody open the way to ratify the WA and finally go on in the next stage ?!

So to be clear, we are ok with the principle of the EU all nations standing up in support of Ireland, but not with the UK standing up for the ROI?
If placing the border in the Irish Sea works, fine, somehow I suspect that more than the DUP were against that option, time will tell.


You are absolutely right, maybe more than DUP would disagree. Maybe not.
If at the end of transition period there is nothing agreed to ensure no diminution of the rights provided by GFA and CTA would they prefer the change to the unknown or keep they rights and a pure status quo at the expense of an nearly invisible border with Great Britain ? Remembering NI voted remain in majority we may have an hint of the answer.

Thing is, politically at the time, TM had to fight this backstop to ensure her majority in Parliament to get the WA agreed. The 10 DUP PM support were supposed to be key to that effect, unfortunately for her, they were not !

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
You know, EU doesn’t want the backstop to be permanent either, PROTOCOL ON IRELAND/NORTHERN IRELAND art 1, the objectives, make it clear. As you rightfully said, “what’s written in black and white in a legally binding international treaty, is a lot different than what written in a non-binding political declaration”. ;) The Brextremist leaders use the “backstop trap” to promote no-deal as the only solution but EU leaders (and law) said it wasn’t desired at all.

In case you don’t recall the WA mechanism : when one party consider the backstop is no longer necessary it needs to explain the reason to the Joint Committee. The JC can than decide if the reason are good enough and if the protocol can cease to apply.
If there is no agreement from the JC and the party disagree then it will follow the dispute settlement path established and finish in ECJ hands. (In advance, based on the unilateral revocation ruling last year, frankly, I don’t think you can call the ECJ biased towards the EU)


Yes I a’m awere of all that, and it still leaves the UK with no unilateral mechanism to leave the treaty voluntarily, this joint Committee has to agree and then and only then it can be taken to arbitration via the ECJ as we are still bound by EU rules these will hardly be biased towards the UK

The words “joint decision” do not mean that somehow there is a friendly discussion in which a consensus view is reached. This give to the EU a complete and unqualified right to veto the UK’s exit from the agreement.


Why would ECJ be biased at all ?
There is a mechanism to exit the backstop, one party just have to explain to the JC what changed to : “address the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, maintain the necessary conditions for continued North-South cooperation, avoid a hard border and protect the 1998 Agreement in all its dimensions”.
There’s no discussion or whatever for the review, the backstop remain necessary or not. UK could use the unilateral exit clause of the GFA, it more or less cancels out all those requirement, isn’t it ? :stirthepot:


A101 wrote:
No we haven’t gone back on our word at all, the UK has for all intent and purpose will honour the agreement, it is Brussels insisting on placeing a custom control point at the border, even ROI have came out and said they do not want to put in a customs border.

You should understand that when two party state they don’t want a border, then enter in negotiation with this objective, when said negotiation fail it is automatic that what they didn’t wanted have to happen.

A101 wrote:
Taoiseach Varadkar has said Government looking at port checks on whole island in no-deal Brexit-livestock from any port within the Island including from inside NI. Seems to me the only speed bump for the GFA is Brussels not the ROI/UK
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... 7?mode=amp

“The kind of things that we’re looking at and proposing, for example, is that the entire island of Ireland will be treated the same […] That would mean Britain accepting that Northern Ireland is being treated differently” means A DEAL. At this point going back to the “Northern Ireland Specific Backstop” makes even more sense.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:49 am

Apparently You Need Trade Negotiators to Negotiate Brexit Deals

For three years, we've been aware that we're going to have to carry out Brexit trade negotiations as the UK as opposed to part of the EU. It should have been obvious that that would mean needing to increase our trade negotiation teams. But, apparently, this has only just occurred to Liam Fox, Minister for Trade and Industry.


The first trade negotiators will be trained in two years time.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:13 pm

If the trade border is the Irish Sea the negotiated WA can be expedited as the basis for the ultimate trade agreement. Suddenly all the drama disappears. I still think it stupid to withdraw from the EU, but it need not create enemy lists and crises.

I could see Scotland aligning with Ireland and out of the UK, after which Wales may reconsider its vote to Brexit. And then London may also campaign to leave the UK. LOL
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:04 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

par13del wrote:
So to be clear, we are ok with the principle of the EU all nations standing up in support of Ireland, but not with the UK standing up for the ROI?
If placing the border in the Irish Sea works, fine, somehow I suspect that more than the DUP were against that option, time will tell.


How is creating a situation in which there will a) be a border between both parts of Ireland or b) trade between the two parts is made harder over diverging rules and standards in the interest of the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland for that matter? The best interest of the RoI and NI would be to call of Brexit or to align the post-leave UK to a degree that has no negative effects on the Republic or Ireland or NI, wouldn´t it??

So far the UKs position vs. both parts of Ireland seems to be "Well, we don´t really want to hurt you, but if that gets in the way of our precious Brexit.... well... sorry... screw you!".

best regards
Thomas

The EU is more than just a trade group, so the border in the Irish Sea to maintain the GFA will defacto place NI under the control of the EU, when the UK changes rules / regulations / laws etc they will be unable to apply the same to NI since they have to remain aligned with the EU for trade purposes.
Brexit is larger than just ROI and NI, calling that off for all members of the group versus try to resolve the situation for the minority?

Strange enough the birth rate of Catholics in NI is higher than the Protestants so one could say its only a matter of time before both sidse unite, then we see the ROI approving abortions, go figure.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:16 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If the trade border is the Irish Sea the negotiated WA can be expedited as the basis for the ultimate trade agreement. Suddenly all the drama disappears. I still think it stupid to withdraw from the EU, but it need not create enemy lists and crises.

I could see Scotland aligning with Ireland and out of the UK, after which Wales may reconsider its vote to Brexit. And then London may also campaign to leave the UK. LOL



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: ironically the Brexitremist make it more likely the union will break up, we know the Tory members don't care in the majority, but is this really the intent of the Brexitremist?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:22 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

Why would ECJ be biased at all ?
There is a mechanism to exit the backstop, one party just have to explain to the JC what changed to : “address the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, maintain the necessary conditions for continued North-South cooperation, avoid a hard border and protect the 1998 Agreement in all its dimensions”.


As one of the EU’s own institutions, the ECJ would struggle to be neutral in the dispute between the UK/ EU, as the WA stipulates that the UK will still be under EU laws and would still hold supremacy over the UK, the ECJ is all about legal autonomy not political objectives. It would make its judgements based under laws of the EU and not any third party provisions.




Grizzly410 wrote:

There’s no discussion or whatever for the review, the backstop remain necessary or not. UK could use the unilateral exit clause of the GFA, it more or less cancels out all those requirement, isn’t it ? :stirthepot:



Yes you really are stiring the pot on that one

Grizzly410 wrote:
The kind of things that we’re looking at and proposing, for example, is that the entire island of Ireland will be treated the same […] That would mean Britain accepting that Northern Ireland is being treated differently” means A DEAL. At this point going back to the “Northern Ireland Specific Backstop” makes even more sense.



No not at all if no deal is executed NI will not come under the jurisdiction of the EU, in this case you are expecting standards to change and they may not, just because ROI would like to do customs checks inside NI dosnt necessarily means a deal will be reached were NI stays under the influence of the EU it just means access
Last edited by A101 on Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:27 pm

A101 wrote:
As one of the EU’s own institutions, the ECJ would struggle to be neutral in the dispute between the UK/ EU, as the WA stipulates that the UK will still be under EU laws and would still hold supremacy over the UK, the ECJ is all about legal autonomy not political objectives. It would make its judgements based under laws of the EU and not any third party provisions.


So you are saying that no court could be neutral in disputes between the government and a private citizen? If you want to take the UK Government to court, then you could not go to a UK court because it is a UK institution and would base it on UK laws.

Sounds rediculous, right? Well because this argumentation is just that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
As one of the EU’s own institutions, the ECJ would struggle to be neutral in the dispute between the UK/ EU, as the WA stipulates that the UK will still be under EU laws and would still hold supremacy over the UK, the ECJ is all about legal autonomy not political objectives. It would make its judgements based under laws of the EU and not any third party provisions.


So you are saying that no court could be neutral in disputes between the government and a private citizen? If you want to take the UK Government to court, then you could not go to a UK court because it is a UK institution and would base it on UK laws.

Sounds rediculous, right? Well because this argumentation is just that.



I’m saying it would not be impartial as it’s judgements are based on EU law not political aspiration And the only law applicable to it is EU law
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:24 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Remembering NI voted remain in majority we may have an hint of the answer.

Yes they voted remain, but until the Catholics become the majority - which is on the way - they have consistently stated that they wanted to remain a part of the UK and not be reunited with the ROI.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:44 pm

par13del wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Remembering NI voted remain in majority we may have an hint of the answer.

Yes they voted remain, but until the Catholics become the majority - which is on the way - they have consistently stated that they wanted to remain a part of the UK and not be reunited with the ROI.



Yes a bit of a dilemma for them, majority want remain as part of the UK and a majority want to remain in the EU

The 2 biggest International trade exports go to the ROI & USA, but the internal market within the UK is bigger than both of these combined, remain in the United Kingdom internal market or European Union That’s the £64,000 question
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:55 am

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

par13del wrote:
So to be clear, we are ok with the principle of the EU all nations standing up in support of Ireland, but not with the UK standing up for the ROI?
If placing the border in the Irish Sea works, fine, somehow I suspect that more than the DUP were against that option, time will tell.


How is creating a situation in which there will a) be a border between both parts of Ireland or b) trade between the two parts is made harder over diverging rules and standards in the interest of the Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland for that matter? The best interest of the RoI and NI would be to call of Brexit or to align the post-leave UK to a degree that has no negative effects on the Republic or Ireland or NI, wouldn´t it??

So far the UKs position vs. both parts of Ireland seems to be "Well, we don´t really want to hurt you, but if that gets in the way of our precious Brexit.... well... sorry... screw you!".

best regards
Thomas

The EU is more than just a trade group, so the border in the Irish Sea to maintain the GFA will defacto place NI under the control of the EU, when the UK changes rules / regulations / laws etc they will be unable to apply the same to NI since they have to remain aligned with the EU for trade purposes.
Brexit is larger than just ROI and NI, calling that off for all members of the group versus try to resolve the situation for the minority?.


Yes, of course they have to. The GFA is an international treaty that predates the Brexit decision, the UK can no more legally break that than Germany, the desire voted in place by no matter what majority, could ask for German territory east of the Oder or Neisse back from Poland, because that would be us breaking a treaty.

best regards
Thomas
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