tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
As one of the EU’s own institutions, the ECJ would struggle to be neutral in the dispute between the UK/ EU, as the WA stipulates that the UK will still be under EU laws and would still hold supremacy over the UK, the ECJ is all about legal autonomy not political objectives. It would make its judgements based under laws of the EU and not any third party provisions.


So you are saying that no court could be neutral in disputes between the government and a private citizen? If you want to take the UK Government to court, then you could not go to a UK court because it is a UK institution and would base it on UK laws.


He is probably using Russian courts as a template, ignoring that courts here rule against their governments all the freaking time......
Those pro-European law-bending biased judges just gave the UK the unilateral power to withdraw their Art. 50 notification against the very, very, very clearly expressed will of the Commission and despite the UK government not caring at all on the matter.

ECJ Ruling C-621/18 wrote:
The United Kingdom Government has not taken a position on the right, for a Member State that has notified its intention to withdraw from the European Union under Article 50 TEU, to revoke that notification.


Dutchy wrote:
Sounds rediculous, right? Well because this argumentation is just that.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

best regards
Thomas
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:

He is probably using Russian courts as a template, ignoring that courts here rule against their governments all the freaking time......



Really can you show me were I said that the government win all the time, read what I wrote.

tommy1808 wrote:

Those pro-European law-bending biased judges just gave the UK the unilateral power to withdraw their Art. 50 notification against the very, very, very clearly expressed will of the Commission and despite the UK government not caring at all on the matter.


Now engage your brain, why do you think he ruled on that in that way?



I’ll even give you a hint it’s based on EU law........and something that the UK will still be under EU/ECJ jurisdiction if we signed the WA.

Also when I said political aspirations:

“a hope or ambition of achieving something.”


Role of the ECJ what do they base their ruling on:

“Ensuring EU law is interpreted and applied the same in every EU country; ensuring countries and EU institutions abide by EU law.”



All EU States have to make investments to protect their external borders in the interest of the entire Schengen Area. For some States, notably those situated at the external frontiers of the Union, these investments can be very high due to particular migratory pressures. The EU Internal Security Fund establishes solidarity between the Schengen States by supporting those countries with a heavy financial burden in implementing the common standards on external border controls.



https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what- ... rossing_en
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:24 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

He is probably using Russian courts as a template, ignoring that courts here rule against their governments all the freaking time......



Really can you show me were I said that the government win all the time, read what I wrote.

tommy1808 wrote:

Those pro-European law-bending biased judges just gave the UK the unilateral power to withdraw their Art. 50 notification against the very, very, very clearly expressed will of the Commission and despite the UK government not caring at all on the matter.


Now engage your brain, why do you think he ruled on that in that way?



I’ll even give you a hint it’s based on EU law........and something that the UK will still be under EU/ECJ jurisdiction if we signed the WA.

Also when I said political aspirations:

“a hope or ambition of achieving something.”


Role of the ECJ what do they base their ruling on:

“Ensuring EU law is interpreted and applied the same in every EU country; ensuring countries and EU institutions abide by EU law.”



All EU States have to make investments to protect their external borders in the interest of the entire Schengen Area. For some States, notably those situated at the external frontiers of the Union, these investments can be very high due to particular migratory pressures. The EU Internal Security Fund establishes solidarity between the Schengen States by supporting those countries with a heavy financial burden in implementing the common standards on external border controls.



https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what- ... rossing_en



So when are you going to sanction the ROI?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:39 am

A101 wrote:


So when are you going to sanction the ROI?


Liike I said, you are exporting your Brexit problems to the EU and ROI. Seems like you do not care about the Good Friday Agreement, you do acknowledge that leaving by the 31st of October, your expressed wish, there can't be any agreement which results in a frictionless border, so you say, Britain will not do anything there, if you want to protect your internal market, it is up to you. So yes, the EU/Ireland is far more committed to the Good Friday Agreement than you, you are willing to give it up in order to have your Brexit. So congratulations, what didn't work with the trade deal - the internal market is more important than trade with the UK - you succeeded with the Good Friday Agreement, you divide the EU and you are bullying Ireland.

But in the end, it comes back to bite you. If you want any trade deal, the ball will be in the Brittish court again, pyrrus victory.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


So when are you going to sanction the ROI?


Liike I said, you are exporting your Brexit problems to the EU and ROI. Seems like you do not care about the Good Friday Agreement, you do acknowledge that leaving by the 31st of October, your expressed wish, there can't be any agreement which results in a frictionless border, so you say, Britain will not do anything there, if you want to protect your internal market, it is up to you. So yes, the EU/Ireland is far more committed to the Good Friday Agreement than you, you are willing to give it up in order to have your Brexit. So congratulations, what didn't work with the trade deal - the internal market is more important than trade with the UK - you succeeded with the Good Friday Agreement, you divide the EU and you are bullying Ireland.

But in the end, it comes back to bite you. If you want any trade deal, the ball will be in the Brittish court again, pyrrus victory.




It’s interesting that line is the only one you want to comment on, but by all means play the well worn record again. But a might be time to replace the stylus sounding pretty worn
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:23 am

A101 wrote:
It’s interesting that line is the only one you want to comment on, but by all means play the well worn record again. But a might be time to replace the stylus sounding pretty worn


It's interesting that you will not comment on it, and attacking the presentation instead. The record is well worn, because it still is the core problem which still hasn't been solved.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:24 am

I will try and watch Panorama later if I'm back home in time. Going by the initial quotes, it's confirming my suspicions all along that we have wasted a lot of time by not having a plan and, if you read between the lines, the credibility of the negotiating team on the UK side is non-existent. Selmayr's offer last year is interesting...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49021081

BBC One at 9pm UK time if anybody is interested
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
It’s interesting that line is the only one you want to comment on, but by all means play the well worn record again. But a might be time to replace the stylus sounding pretty worn


It's interesting that you will not comment on it, and attacking the presentation instead. The record is well worn, because it still is the core problem which still hasn't been solved.


I’m tired of continually commenting on it in all its variations, but the penny still has not dropped that it’s not an insurmountable problem leaving with a deal or not.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:48 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
I will try and watch Panorama later if I'm back home in time. Going by the initial quotes, it's confirming my suspicions all along that we have wasted a lot of time by not having a plan and, if you read between the lines, the credibility of the negotiating team on the UK side is non-existent. Selmayr's offer last year is interesting...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49021081

BBC One at 9pm UK time if anybody is interested


Quote from the linked article:

Elsewhere in the programme, Mrs May's de facto deputy David Lidington revealed that a senior EU official made a secret offer to the UK to put Brexit on hold for five years and negotiate a "new deal for Europe".

Mr Lidington said the offer was passed on in 2018 by Martin Selmayr, a senior aide to EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker.

"Martin sort of said, 'Look, why don't we have a deal whereby we just put all this on ice for five years?'

"Let's see how things go, let's get the UK involved with France and Germany, let's see how the dust settles and let's talk about whether we can come to a new deal for Europe.'"


That would have a good solution for everyone. Thinks could have been addressed with minimal damage. Shame it was rejected.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:50 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
It’s interesting that line is the only one you want to comment on, but by all means play the well worn record again. But a might be time to replace the stylus sounding pretty worn


It's interesting that you will not comment on it, and attacking the presentation instead. The record is well worn, because it still is the core problem which still hasn't been solved.


I’m tired of continually commenting on it in all its variations, but the penny still has not dropped that it’s not an insurmountable problem leaving with a deal or not.


Not insurmountable, but hugely damaging and for what?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:03 am

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Another idea from the EU is that the UK needn't pick its FINAL position from the famous slide on the different stages of EU collaboration yet.
The UK could for instance decide to just drop down one step (to the Norway+ model) by the end of October, thus honouring its promise to leave, while at the same time and due to the nature of this model, avoid having to sign up to the contentious issues surrounding the backstop contained within the WA.
It can then take its time to sort out whether it wants to remain at that stage, or drop down further on the ladder of integration with Europe, all while building a majority at home for whatever it takes in return to be able to take any such further step(s) down.

All those would have been pursuant to signing the WA, the whole point the reason for the backstop in the 1st place was that Brussels refused to negotiate the future relationship in parallel, all those possabile solutions do not take into account that if the UK want to move away from those in the future the backstop would apply.


Careful now: it seems that pretty much everything which says 'Withdrawal Agreement' on the lid, is currently unpalatable to the UK!
The CURRENT form of the WA clearly is, yet that came into being based on the notorious red lines set by the UK which pretty much moves the country straight from its current full EU membership status out to the outmost outer sphere of European integration!

However - and the EU has repeatedly said so in the past- the current WA is just 'the full option version' of any sort of WA that must be signed to accompany Britain's orderly withdrawal from the EU, yet it can be watered down again and certain provisions no longer needed can be taken out of it should the UK decide to drop some of its red lines on what type of Brexit it is going to persue, first.
Indeed, it's the UK who has pretty much made the current WA what it currently is: a very comprehensive set of very harsh conditions and commitments, to the point this full option version of the WA is no longer acceptable to the UK even.
Yet it needn't be that way!

Still remember the famous slide from Mr. Barnier with all the different options of integration the EU could offer the UK?
Well, just as each intermediate option comes with more EU rights and obligations than the Brexit the UK's government tried to persue unsuccessfully, each option also comes with less legal provisions required in the actual agreement to move to that stage: the more you move to the right in that slide however, the more contentious the agreement to do so seems to become, so the obvious thing to do is not go there for the time being, but rather pick a more achievable option from the shelves in Brussels then, isn't it?

The easiest thing to do for any British politician would be to say he's taking a PHASED approach to Brexit, and simply drop down one step NOW, which is to move to the Norway+ option. It would come with tons of advantages:
1/ it would allow the UK to finally leave the EU by the end of October
2/ the agreement to move to this step would require a pretty uncontentious WA only, which should pass the vote in parliament by a good majority
3/ it would save the GFA and thus the UK's reputation as a country which fully honours its international commitments
4/ it would respect the spirit of the ref.result in NI, while honouring the nationwide result (even the Scotts may feel somewhat respected, strenghten the UK again…)
5/ it would avoid the UK from going over the cliff edge unprepared
6/ further steps could be negotiated with the EU as a non-EU-member and be included in a future FTA... no more need to call the agreement a (second) WA any longer

Once the official withdrawal from the EU has been concluded and the UK is effectively enjoying a transition period (of unlimited nature even!) similiar to the one all fractions in the UK say would be welcome, the UK can figure out internally and completely at its own pace whether there's also sufficient domestic appetite to go down further on the ladder, for instance through a GE or why not another specific referendum and it might use the extra time from taking a phased approach to Brexit to come up with workable plans for each subsequent move after phase 1, as well as let the technogogy to underpin them, mature.
All of which can be included in far less contentious bilateral agreements which can even be included in a sweetening FTA with the EU, all at the same time!

You see, a face saving diplomatic solution isn't so difficult at all, it's just that British politicians should let go of the binary idea that there's something like a winner-takes-all approach to Brexit which is very unlike anything else in British politics (hence their failure to grasp this). Interestingly enough this is also what TM said in her last big speech as PM! If only she'd realised it a few years earlier….

The bottom line is this: Brexit is going to have to start with BRINO, or it will end in political turmoil and economic chaos!
And yes, there's no guarantee Brexit will not stall soon after BRINO, yet wasn't that pretty much what the referendum result already hinted at?
A relatively narrow majority for a one-size-suits-all type of withdrawal from the EU which thus also included people who voted for a BRINO only?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:31 am

sabenapilot wrote:

[cut cut cut...]

You see, a face saving diplomatic solution isn't so difficult at all, it's just that British politicians should let go of the binary idea that there's something like a winner-takes-all approach to Brexit which is very unlike anything else in British politics (hence their failure to grasp this). Interestingly enough this is also what TM said in her last big speech as PM! If only she'd realised it a few years earlier….

The bottom line is this: Brexit is going to have to start with BRINO, or it will end in political turmoil and economic chaos!
And yes, there's no guarantee Brexit will not stall soon after BRINO, yet wasn't that pretty much what the referendum result already hinted at?
A relatively narrow majority for a one-size-suits-all type of withdrawal from the EU which thus also included people who voted for a BRINO only?



That's crazy talk... BURN THE HERETIC! ;)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Number6
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:38 am

Sabenapilot, that is exactly what should have happened. If the politicians had just been honest in the first place, that brexit is a difficult process that can’t be solved in 2 years, then the UK could have given itself time to formulate plans, put in place the required infrastructure and give itself breathing room to build for a proper future outside the EU. Instead they’ve taken the ‘full speed ahead and screw the iceberg’ approach. I suspect they’ve done this for fear of people changing they’re minds as time passes. With your plan, maybe the Norway approach would work well for the U.K. for those desperate to become ‘free trade buccaneers’ nothing but full withdrawal would count. It’s a real shame to see a country tear itself apart when a slower, more thought out approach would have delivered the result and kept pace with what was needed to be in place to do so. All because a politician couldn’t be truthful and honest.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:13 am

Number6 wrote:
Sabenapilot, that is exactly what should have happened. If the politicians had just been honest in the first place, that brexit is a difficult process that can’t be solved in 2 years, then the UK could have given itself time to formulate plans, put in place the required infrastructure and give itself breathing room to build for a proper future outside the EU. Instead they’ve taken the ‘full speed ahead and screw the iceberg’ approach. I suspect they’ve done this for fear of people changing they’re minds as time passes. With your plan, maybe the Norway approach would work well for the U.K. for those desperate to become ‘free trade buccaneers’ nothing but full withdrawal would count. It’s a real shame to see a country tear itself apart when a slower, more thought out approach would have delivered the result and kept pace with what was needed to be in place to do so. All because a politician couldn’t be truthful and honest.


:checkmark: right, but keep in mind that politicians with such a moderate and balanced approach aren't necessary electable or good campaigners. We have seen it with the Torry elections. Rory Stewart was the one with such an approach but he was blown away by Boris Johnson whom promises a swift and decisive "victory", how unrealistically as it may be, but he wins the election and thus pushes the UK further in the corner.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 pm

Number6 wrote:
Sabenapilot, that is exactly what should have happened. If the politicians had just been honest in the first place,

How could they be.....they created the situation which led to DC granting the referendum and they have done everything since then to ensure that the results of the vote are never implemented, they do not care how they look in the eyes of the international world, as long as they do not have to do any heavy lifting they are quite fine being called useless, they can continue to blame the EU for their inaction and lack of decisions, the so called endless loop.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 pm

par13del wrote:
Number6 wrote:
Sabenapilot, that is exactly what should have happened. If the politicians had just been honest in the first place,

How could they be.....they created the situation which led to DC granting the referendum and they have done everything since then to ensure that the results of the vote are never implemented, they do not care how they look in the eyes of the international world, as long as they do not have to do any heavy lifting they are quite fine being called useless, they can continue to blame the EU for their inaction and lack of decisions, the so called endless loop.


it is an interesting case study for what happens if Populism meets a party that refuses to play.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Number6 wrote:
Sabenapilot, that is exactly what should have happened. If the politicians had just been honest in the first place,

How could they be.....they created the situation which led to DC granting the referendum and they have done everything since then to ensure that the results of the vote are never implemented, they do not care how they look in the eyes of the international world, as long as they do not have to do any heavy lifting they are quite fine being called useless, they can continue to blame the EU for their inaction and lack of decisions, the so called endless loop.


it is an interesting case study for what happens if Populism meets a party that refuses to play.....

best regards
Thomas


it seems like BoJo just got a pre-emptive headcount of his 'majority' in case he wants to persue a no deal brexit:
MPs just passed an amendment which seeks to block any attempt by a future government to prorogue parliament to ensure a no-deal, with a majority of 41(!).
The vote also saw no less than 10 ministers in TM's government -and who can not vote against their own government- abstaining in the vote!
BoJo can say whatever he likes, he clearly will not have anywhere near the majority in parliament to go any rougher than TM tried to do…
Another extension, anyone, maybe? ;)
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:40 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
it is an interesting case study for what happens if Populism meets a party that refuses to play.....

best regards
Thomas

To put in in UK terms, what happens when Populism meets ELITES who refuse to play.......the blockers of Brexit are on both sides of the aisle.
In some case studies the original Brexit vote will go down as a vote against the elites who sit in power and do what they want to do, when they want to do it, without any thought
of the effects on those paying the price.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:44 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
The vote also saw no less than 10 ministers in TM's government -and who can not vote against their own government- abstaining in the vote!
BoJo can say whatever he likes, he clearly will not have anywhere near the majority in parliament to go any rougher than TM tried to do…
Another extension, anyone, maybe? ;)

If he becomes PM and his first act is to set up a cabinet of Brexiters in particular removing the hold on the purse strings, expect sparks to fly. At least the UK will then have a cabinet not at war with itself, they will still have to fight the civil war with the Civil Service and the Parliament, but at least the "phony war" will be over.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:53 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
it seems like BoJo just got a pre-emptive headcount of his 'majority' in case he wants to persue a no deal brexit:
MPs just passed an amendment which seeks to block any attempt by a future government to prorogue parliament to ensure a no-deal, with a majority of 41(!).
The vote also saw no less than 10 ministers in TM's government -and who can not vote against their own government- abstaining in the vote!
BoJo can say whatever he likes, he clearly will not have anywhere near the majority in parliament to go any rougher than TM tried to do…
Another extension, anyone, maybe? ;)


The hole prorogue issue is too absurd to mention. It would do nothing to reunite the country, it would only deepen the contradictions in UK society. Can we please conclude that after 3 years of trying, this isn't the way forward. There isn't a real mandate for any of the options.
Still think the best option moving forward, without too much damage to several layers, is a Brino with a cooling-off period of five years, the EU can rethink what it wants with 3rd countries on the EU continent and the UK can come to a conclusion what it actually wants with the EU. Don't know how it can be achieved politically though.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:53 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
it seems like BoJo just got a pre-emptive headcount of his 'majority' in case he wants to persue a no deal brexit:
MPs just passed an amendment which seeks to block any attempt by a future government to prorogue parliament to ensure a no-deal, with a majority of 41(!).


There has never been a majority in Parliament in favour of no-deal. Even someone as "maverick" as BoJo knows that.

Then again, we are talking about a man with a large portion of egg on his face, or should that be kipper? He lied all through the referendum campaign and he's still lying. Boris enjoys the same relationship with facts that the current POTUS does.

The harsh realities of Brexit will come as a nasty shock to him (assuming he's the next PM). :rotfl:
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:27 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

Careful now: it seems that pretty much everything which says 'Withdrawal Agreement' on the lid, is currently unpalatable to the UK!



Of course that’s the case there are not multiple WA to choose from.

sabenapilot wrote:

The CURRENT form of the WA clearly is, yet that came into being based on the notorious red lines set by the UK which pretty much moves the country straight from its current full EU membership status out to the outmost outer sphere of European integration!



Is that only a revelation now to you, David Cameron made it quite clear that we will be leaving the customs union & single market during the referenda debate


sabenapilot wrote:

However - and the EU has repeatedly said so in the past- the current WA is just 'the full option version' of any sort of WA that must be signed to accompany Britain's orderly withdrawal from the EU, yet it can be watered down again and certain provisions no longer needed can be taken out of it should the UK decide to drop some of its red lines on what type of Brexit it is going to persue, first.



What you are saying here is that the future relationship was going to be run in parallel with the negotiations team, something Brussels clearly said was not going to happen. So any talk of which model that was going to be finalised was clearly in the next phase after withdrawal negotiations had been completed, so therefore the backstop requirement was always going to be a sticking issue with Brussels


sabenapilot wrote:

Indeed, it's the UK who has pretty much made the current WA what it currently is: a very comprehensive set of very harsh conditions and commitments, to the point this full option version of the WA is no longer acceptable to the UK even.
Yet it needn't be that way!




Of course it didn’t need to be that way, TM had to stand firm on how the negotiations were to take place, as A50 sets out the WA needs also to take into account our future relationship with the EU, that could not be done with the way Brussels steam rolled TM

sabenapilot wrote:

Still remember the famous slide from Mr. Barnier with all the different options of integration the EU could offer the UK?
Well, just as each intermediate option comes with more EU rights and obligations than the Brexit the UK's government tried to persue unsuccessfully, each option also comes with less legal provisions required in the actual agreement to move to that stage: the more you move to the right in that slide however, the more contentious the agreement to do so seems to become, so the obvious thing to do is not go there for the time being, but rather pick a more achievable option from the shelves in Brussels then, isn't it?



How could we pick an option when the future relationship was not being discussed, but also it was pretty much self evident to which we would have to do as we were leaving on the premises of not being in the CU/SM


sabenapilot wrote:

The easiest thing to do for any British politician would be to say he's taking a PHASED approach to Brexit, and simply drop down one step NOW, which is to move to the Norway+ option. It would come with tons of advantages:
1/ it would allow the UK to finally leave the EU by the end of October
2/ the agreement to move to this step would require a pretty uncontentious WA only, which should pass the vote in parliament by a good majority
3/ it would save the GFA and thus the UK's reputation as a country which fully honours its international commitments
4/ it would respect the spirit of the ref.result in NI, while honouring the nationwide result (even the Scotts may feel somewhat respected, strenghten the UK again…)
5/ it would avoid the UK from going over the cliff edge unprepared
6/ further steps could be negotiated with the EU as a non-EU-member and be included in a future FTA... no more need to call the agreement a (second) WA any longer



And all those requirements we are not leaving the EU, we are still obliged to make membership payments and still required to stay in alignment of EU rules, I really don’t see the point in moving from full membership to something that dosnt really reduce our commitments to the EU with no say in future direction of the EU

sabenapilot wrote:

Once the official withdrawal from the EU has been concluded and the UK is effectively enjoying a transition period (of unlimited nature even!) similiar to the one all fractions in the UK say would be welcome, the UK can figure out internally and completely at its own pace whether there's also sufficient domestic appetite to go down further on the ladder, for instance through a GE or why not another specific referendum and it might use the extra time from taking a phased approach to Brexit to come up with workable plans for each subsequent move after phase 1, as well as let the technogogy to underpin them, mature.
All of which can be included in far less contentious bilateral agreements which can even be included in a sweetening FTA with the EU, all at the same time!



At which point in the withdrawal agreement would no doubt be an Irish backstop as per the current one.

sabenapilot wrote:

You see, a face saving diplomatic solution isn't so difficult at all, it's just that British politicians should let go of the binary idea that there's something like a winner-takes-all approach to Brexit which is very unlike anything else in British politics (hence their failure to grasp this). Interestingly enough this is also what TM said in her last big speech as PM! If only she'd realised it a few years earlier….




There would have been no need for a face saving ex if the WA was actually run in parallel with the future relationship on the grounds of David Cameron’s referenda that we will be leaving the CU/SM in which the majority voted for in black and white


sabenapilot wrote:
The bottom line is this: Brexit is going to have to start with BRINO, or it will end in political turmoil and economic chaos!
And yes, there's no guarantee Brexit will not stall soon after BRINO, yet wasn't that pretty much what the referendum result already hinted at?
A relatively narrow majority for a one-size-suits-all type of withdrawal from the EU which thus also included people who voted for a BRINO only?



Nope the referenda was not about leaving on a maybe it was predicated on leaving the EU full stop
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
it seems like BoJo just got a pre-emptive headcount of his 'majority' in case he wants to persue a no deal brexit:
MPs just passed an amendment which seeks to block any attempt by a future government to prorogue parliament to ensure a no-deal, with a majority of 41(!).


There has never been a majority in Parliament in favour of no-deal. Even someone as "maverick" as BoJo knows that.

Then again, we are talking about a man with a large portion of egg on his face, or should that be kipper? He lied all through the referendum campaign and he's still lying. Boris enjoys the same relationship with facts that the current POTUS does.

The harsh realities of Brexit will come as a nasty shock to him (assuming he's the next PM). :rotfl:


No need to wait that long: the EU saw him make the illustrative claim about the pointless 'kipper rules' and contrary to what it used to do, which is just shake its head in disbelief and say nothing, they actually spoke out and corrected him publically, pointing out therule is actually a purely BRITISH one, as 'the mail delivering of products from food businesses to consumers was not covered by EU legislation on food hygiene'.

BoJo continues to spread nonsense and make a fool of himself!

https://www.food.gov.uk/business-guidan ... d-delivery
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:59 pm

This is so depressing.

Meanwhile, in Europe, nobody cares anymore.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:01 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Careful now: it seems that pretty much everything which says 'Withdrawal Agreement' on the lid, is currently unpalatable to the UK!

Of course that’s the case: there are not multiple WA to choose from.

There's only ever going to be a single WA, since it's the name for the agreement which will allow for an orderly withdrawal from the EU, regardless what type of Brexit.
The CURRENT WA is the worst case version to cover the case of a hardest of brexits: make brexit softer and the WA will be softened up as well. It has been explictly said and repeatedly so even, but the agreement will still be called the WA of course: it will however contain far less stringent obligations for the UK since those won't be needed any longer. If you're a Norway+ country, there's no more need for the backstop for instance, so that can go out quite easily.

A101 wrote:
David Cameron made it quite clear that we will be leaving the customs union & single market during the referenda debate

And prominent leavers called it bullocks…
More people seemed to believe the leave campaign than DC going by the way they voted, or do you think they all believed DC, yet voted leave anyway?
That's a strange position to take, to say the least.

A101 wrote:
What you are saying here is that the future relationship was going to be run in parallel with the negotiations team, something Brussels clearly said was not going to happen. So any talk of which model that was going to be finalised was clearly in the next phase after withdrawal negotiations had been completed, so therefore the backstop requirement was always going to be a sticking issue with Brussels

You're more than just a bit confused, it seems...
The EU can legally not negotiate a FTA with a memberstate for the simple reason it would effectively be negotiating with itself.
But once the UK will officially have left the EU, it can freely negotiate… the EU has negotiated with Norway too, hasn't it?
If the UK opts for the Norway+ model, it can easily leave the EU with a WA excluding the backstop and then it can -should it wish to, at a later stage- negotiate a further losening of the ties with the EU in parallel to any FTA that it wants to conclude with it... and yes, additional provisions from the current WA -possibly even the contentious backstop- may then come back into play again, but these can then be contained in the FTA and weighed off against it. Isn't that what you've been advocating all along? Negotiate a FTA alongside the provisions of the WA? Well, here you'd be doing a mini-Brexit first and have to sign up to just a WA-light in return for it, and then you could do the 'real Brexit' later and hammer out the mega-FTA including the rest of the provisions from the current WA….

A101 wrote:
I really don’t see the point in moving from full membership to something that doesnt really reduce our commitments to the EU with no say in future direction of the EU

In a phased approach like I'm advocating, you'd have to start somewhere, don't you?
But I share your fear: it may very well turn out that after the first phase - to Norway+ aka BRINO - it will turn out to be already sufficient for a large majority of people, so then the withdrawal ends there… Isn't THAT the main issue Brexiteers have with this approach? ;)

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Once the official withdrawal from the EU has been concluded and the UK is effectively enjoying a transition period (of unlimited nature even!) similiar to the one all fractions in the UK say would be welcome, the UK can figure out internally and completely at its own pace whether there's also sufficient domestic appetite to go down further on the ladder, for instance through a GE or why not another specific referendum and it might use the extra time from taking a phased approach to Brexit to come up with workable plans for each subsequent move after phase 1, as well as let the technogogy to underpin them, mature.
All of which can be included in far less contentious bilateral agreements which can even be included in a sweetening FTA with the EU, all at the same time!

At which point in the withdrawal agreement would no doubt be an Irish backstop as per the current one.

Wait a minute: you're the one who right until several times in this very post even is claiming that if only the EU would be willing to negotiate the FTA in parallel to the provisions for withdrawal from the SM/CU, the Irish backstop wouldn't be needed… and now you say that they will be needed in that case as well, after all?

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
The bottom line is this: Brexit is going to have to start with BRINO, or it will end in political turmoil and economic chaos!
And yes, there's no guarantee Brexit will not stall soon after BRINO, yet wasn't that pretty much what the referendum result already hinted at?
A relatively narrow majority for a one-size-suits-all type of withdrawal from the EU which thus also included people who voted for a BRINO only?

Nope the referenda was not about leaving on a maybe it was predicated on leaving the EU, full stop

A phased approach to Brexit, in which the first phase is a BRINO only to a Norway+ status is honouring the referendum as Britain would be leaving the EU, exactly as per popular instruction…
Any further step to move to the next phase could then -again- be checked off with the people first, ideally by the same method, or alternatively just by a GE...
Entirely logical and democratic: nobody is ignoring any popular instructions,they are honouring them to the lettre and in fact they are even asking for more directions after taking the first step!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:23 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
BoJo continues to spread nonsense and make a fool of himself!

https://www.food.gov.uk/business-guidan ... d-delivery


Meanwhile, the EC added insult to injury for BoJo by pointing out that not only the unnecessary rules (dixit BoJo) on the transport of kippers are entirely and solely BRITISH rather than European, but that the isle of Man is not even under its jurisdiction! :rotfl:

Technicalities are clearly not his strongest point...
It will be entertaining to see him engage in detailed (re)negotiations with the EU. :sarcastic:
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:28 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

There's only ever going to be a single WA, since it's the name for the agreement which will allow for an orderly withdrawal from the EU, regardless what type of Brexit.

The CURRENT WA is the worst case version to cover the case of a hardest of brexits: make brexit softer and the WA will be softened up as well. It has been explictly said and repeatedly so even, but the agreement will still be called the WA of course: it will however contain far less stringent obligations for the UK since those won't be needed any longer. If you're a Norway+ country, there's no more need for the backstop for instance, so that can go out quite easily.

.

No one is saying it will be called anything but a withdrawal agreement, the process laid down by Brussels was always going down this path because they refused to negotiate the future relationship, untill the WA was signed, it’s a matter of public record that this was going to happen by them irrespective of a soft or hard exit

sabenapilot wrote:

And prominent leavers called it bullocks…
More people seemed to believe the leave campaign than DC going by the way they voted, or do you think they all believed DC, yet voted leave anyway?
That's a strange position to take, to say the least.



David Cameron was the PM at the time and authority at the time, he was best placed to say what leave ment as it was all him getting it to the referenda in the 1st place

sabenapilot wrote:

You're more than just a bit confused, it seems...
The EU can legally not negotiate a FTA with a memberstate for the simple reason it would effectively be negotiating with itself.



No confusion as it says it in black and white in A50,

A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3)[12] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council [of the European Union], acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.



sabenapilot wrote:

In a phased approach like I'm advocating, you'd have to start somewhere, don't you?
But I share your fear: it may very well turn out that after the first phase - to Norway+ aka BRINO - it will turn out to be already sufficient for a large majority of people, so then the withdrawal ends there… Isn't THAT the main issue Brexiteers have with this approach? ;)




We are not having a phased approach that you have come up with, we are after a final deal not something that’s cropping up every few years

sabenapilot wrote:

Wait a minute: you're the one who right until several times in this very post even is claiming that if only the EU would be willing to negotiate the FTA in parallel to the provisions for withdrawal from the SM/CU, the Irish backstop wouldn't be needed… and now you say that they will be needed in that case as well, after all?


Nope that was in context of your phased approach as the Norway + is not the final agreement

sabenapilot wrote:
A phased approach to Brexit, in which the first phase is a BRINO only to a Norway+ status is honouring the referendum as Britain would be leaving the EU, exactly as per popular instruction…
Any further step to move to the next phase could then -again- be checked off with the people first, ideally by the same method, or alternatively just by a GE...
Entirely logical and democratic: nobody is ignoring any popular instructions,they are honouring them to the lettre and in fact they are even asking for more directions after taking the first ste



Norway + is not leaving the EU in its entirety we are still subject to EU parliamentary and judicial supremacy of the EU plus continue to pay membership, as I said if they are after Norway + what’s the point in leaving in the 1st place I can’t see the benefits to it.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:59 pm

A101 wrote:
David Cameron made it quite clear that we will be leaving the customs union & single market during the referenda debate


Lots of things were said during the campaign that were either wrong or complete lies. It's amusing that you continue to put so much weight on what an ex-politician said years ago.

Rees-Mogg said in Parliament that a second referendum would be a good idea. You don't seem so keen on that statement.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:09 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
David Cameron made it quite clear that we will be leaving the customs union & single market during the referenda debate


Lots of things were said during the campaign that were either wrong or complete lies. It's amusing that you continue to put so much weight on what an ex-politician said years ago.

Rees-Mogg said in Parliament that a second referendum would be a good idea. You don't seem so keen on that statement.

Well to be fair, one would think that the words of a Prime Minister carry more weight than a MEP named Nigel or Boris putting out a RED BUS....
Especially the PM who initiated the vote and promised to implement the results...only point here is that his words should carry as much weight as what was written on the bus and said elsewhere.
I think folks were angry with DC for leaving that they made what he said disappear...but leaving the CU / SM was out there...
Which in my opinion is the entire point, if you remain in the CU / SM you effectively are in the EU, personally I see no benefit to Norway not being a full member.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
David Cameron made it quite clear that we will be leaving the customs union & single market during the referenda debate


Lots of things were said during the campaign that were either wrong or complete lies. It's amusing that you continue to put so much weight on what an ex-politician said years ago.

Rees-Mogg said in Parliament that a second referendum would be a good idea. You don't seem so keen on that statement.



Who was the prime minister at the time, who carried more weight, are we not ment to take the prime minister seriously now?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:25 am

A101 wrote:
Brussels (…) refused to negotiate the future relationship untill the WA was signed, it’s a matter of public record that this was going to happen by them irrespective of a soft or hard exit.

Right after Brexit, Britain can negotiate a FTA with the EU which -by your own statements- will solve the issue of the backstop and make it needless, so the obvious solution then is to take the backstop out of the WA now -like you want- and to move it to the phase dedicated for the future negotiations on that FTA, isn't it?
Well, that can be easily done if you don't need the backstop to withdraw from the EU in the first place, meaning going for a (temporary) soft Brexit only.
:yes:

A101 wrote:
We are not having a phased approach that you have come up with, we are after a final deal, not something that’s cropping up every few years

First of all: 'we'????
Are you speaking just for yourself here, or for Britain?
Because Britain's official policy very much is to persue a phased approach to Brexit: one in which it leaves (phase 1) and one in which it negotiates a FTA (phase 2).
TM explicitly agreed to this principple right from the start: .https://euobserver.com/brexit/138280

Secondly: the idea of an even thinner phased approach isn't mine at all btw, that would be too much credit really; it's actually an idea from the UK to pretty much do what you've been pushing all along: to add FTA negotiations and (part of the) withdrawal negotiations together!
The idea would be to divide the first of the two distinct phases required by the EU into two further subphases, the first one being merely a quick withdrawal from the EU from a purely legal point-of-view (a BRINO), so the second part of phase one can then be added to phase 2 and thus used to avoid the backstop from having to be agreed to prematurely.
You're pretty much arguing with yourself if you're now against this, you know? But I understand, since this proposal -which was acceptable to the EU- was recalled at the next meeting between DD and Michel Barnier because of too much opposition to it from Brexiteers: they didn't want to be seen as delivering a BRINO (first).
Yet another exit blocked off, only to find themselves locked in, afterwards.

Thirdly, Europe IS going to constantly keep croping up in the UK, regardless the type of Brexit.
In fact, it's never going to go away anymore, with the regular flare up each time something controversial and likely quite divisive has to be discussed and decided.
Just look at the Swiss: they have no less than 20 permanent parliamentary joint committees with the EP and their ministers constantly have to talk to their EU counterparts from the EC in Brussels to make sure that all of their 120+ bilateral agreements with the EU are kept up-to-date...
As good as ALL of their MPs are a member of some joint committee with the EU, next to their regular committee membership at the national level, just to man all seats required!
Don't expect the UK to fare any different: If you don't want matters related to the SM to fill the daily schedule of MPs at Westminster, then better devolve those technical matters back to the EU and the EP, which is the reason there's a dedicated parliament for the EU in the first place: prior to the Maastricht treaty, national parliaments had to discuss all these things too and many memberstates -including the UK- found it was almost becoming a full time job!

You recently said I am looking at things throught rose-tinted glasses, but let me tell you that you clearly have ZERO understanding of how a medium-sized European neighbouring country interacts with the European SM, regardless whether they are in (via EFTA), or out (via own bilateral agreements). You're going to be much surprised still, and hugely disappointed, let me tell you that, because you can take Britain out of Europe, but you can't take Europe out of Britain.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:34 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
David Cameron made it quite clear that we will be leaving the customs union & single market during the referenda debate


Lots of things were said during the campaign that were either wrong or complete lies. It's amusing that you continue to put so much weight on what an ex-politician said years ago.

Rees-Mogg said in Parliament that a second referendum would be a good idea. You don't seem so keen on that statement.



Who was the prime minister at the time, who carried more weight, are we not ment to take the prime minister seriously now?


Are we still going to be able to do that, as from next week? ;)

Who exactly is this guy speaking for who's going to install himself in Nr 10, based on nothing but a a pretended command of a majority in the Commons that his predecessor once said she had, yet which has meanwhile been shown to be very questionable indeed going by the many votes she lost in Parliament, not least the one yesterday in which her successor basically got demonstrated he's more than 40 MPs short of any real-world majority even!
Just because the candidates elected to the Commons wear the same colour of badge, doesn't seem to mean they will all vote in line with the leader of that party anylonger…
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:19 am

A101 wrote:
Who was the prime minister at the time, who carried more weight, are we not ment to take the prime minister seriously now?


Your faith in what a politician or political party says is touching but misplaced. Your faith in said politicians seems to only be applied selectively.

It’s almost as though you believe politicians have as much control as they seem to think they have. Bless.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:16 pm

Idiotic things BoJo said as foreign secretary...

Boris Johnson reportedly asked aides whether Angela Merkel was in the Stasi and questioned why Leo Varadkar isn’t “called Murphy like all the rest of them?”

The comments were made while he was foreign secretary, according to the Financial Times.

Johnson has previously called the French “turds” and compared the EU to the Nazis.


Mr Johnson intends an early European tour if, as is likely, he wins the ballot for the Conservative leadership. Paris, Berlin and Dublin are on the list. He may encounter some bumps along the way.

His long record of mendacity and an infantile habit of comparing the EU to Nazi Germany have not created a reservoir of trust among other European leaders. They are unimpressed by his “do-or-die” threat of a no-deal Brexit. Mr Johnson’s crude English exceptionalism is even less endearing.

At the Foreign Office he was heard to muse as to whether Chancellor Angela Merkel had served in East Germany’s Stasi secret police. French president Emmanuel Macron was a “jumped-up Napoleon”. As for Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, “Why isn’t he called Murphy like all the rest of them”.

Such jibes find a way back to foreign capitals. Mr Johnson has had nothing useful to say about Brexit. He may mean it when he threatens to take Britain out of the Union by October 31st, with or without a deal. But there is no certainty he can secure a majority in parliament for crashing out.



https://www.businessinsider.com.au/bori ... ?r=US&IR=T


https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bori ... 8?mode=amp

zkojq wrote:
A101 wrote:
the Irish government placed more police and defence personal at check points at the border than the UK did at the height of the troubles.

Source please

Still I wait for a source on this...
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:40 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
it seems like BoJo just got a pre-emptive headcount of his 'majority' in case he wants to persue a no deal brexit:
MPs just passed an amendment which seeks to block any attempt by a future government to prorogue parliament to ensure a no-deal, with a majority of 41(!).
The vote also saw no less than 10 ministers in TM's government -and who can not vote against their own government- abstaining in the vote!
BoJo can say whatever he likes, he clearly will not have anywhere near the majority in parliament to go any rougher than TM tried to do…
Another extension, anyone, maybe? ;)


I was reading an interesting article earlier which brought up an intriguing point: the Queen is only supposed to appoint a Prime Minister who commands a majority in the house of commons...

To me, it therefore seems likely that:

a) BoJo is appointed at May's recommendation, "unconstitutionally" (I know we don't actually have one - but you get what I mean), then immediately demonstrates a lack of majority command in the house... then chaos ensues

or

b) BoJo can't actually be appointed as the Queen refuses, or May refuses, or civil servants step in and hold up the process to sort out the legalities... then chaos ensues

In either case, I stand by what I said a few weeks ago - this is all a stupid waste of time leading to an inevitable implosion in October.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:56 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
In either case, I stand by what I said a few weeks ago - this is all a stupid waste of time leading to an inevitable implosion in October.


Actually no, I take that back. This period of stupid and utterly unrealistic time-wasting seems to be having a positive effect... I am seeing more and more comments from all corners agreeing that this is absolutely the wrong thing to be doing and I feel that a groundswell against the Tories and against Brexit is building up. There will still be an inevitable implosion in October but I'm now more optimistic about what will remain standing in the wreckage.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:47 pm

Number6 wrote:
Sabenapilot, that is exactly what should have happened. If the politicians had just been honest in the first place

The crux is that if UK politicians had been honest in the first place, there would never have been a Brexit vote (and most likely nobody would even have asked for a referendum).

All of this is driven by the internal need to uphold the facade of entrenched lies even in the face of a totally different reality, at whatever cost to younger and unborn generations.

And that is why at the very least the current bunch of UK leaders (notably including Jeremy Corbyn!) is inherently unable to get the UK back out of that mess, and their supporters keep pushing the UK towards the abyss – it's rather like a regular suicide cult.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:01 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
it is an interesting case study for what happens if Populism meets a party that refuses to play.....

best regards
Thomas

To put in in UK terms, what happens when Populism meets ELITES who refuse to play.......the blockers of Brexit are on both sides of the aisle.
In some case studies the original Brexit vote will go down as a vote against the elites who sit in power and do what they want to do, when they want to do it, without any thought
of the effects on those paying the price.

In actual fact, however, Brexit is driven by a bunch of elite renegades who never made it to the big league on their own merits and who see the wholesale destruction of the established order with all the fallout to the general population as their only opportunity to make it to the top despite their lack of talent, trustworthiness and responsibility. Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg are the perfect representatives of that mindset, with Rees-Mogg's father actually having laid out that exact strategy in a book.

Their relationship with the general people on the street is pretty much the same nigerian scammers have with their victims: They see them as easy marks to exploit for their own purposes and then to crush them under their boots once they have what they want ("Singapore on Thames", anyone?).

It is troubling but unfortunately common that the victims keep defending the very people who are stripping their future bare at the same time.
Last edited by Klaus on Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:04 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
It’s interesting that line is the only one you want to comment on, but by all means play the well worn record again. But a might be time to replace the stylus sounding pretty worn


It's interesting that you will not comment on it, and attacking the presentation instead. The record is well worn, because it still is the core problem which still hasn't been solved.


I’m tired of continually commenting on it in all its variations, but the penny still has not dropped that it’s not an insurmountable problem leaving with a deal or not.

Oh, we do very much understand that you just don't care about those consequences for the people you're leaving behind when you're absconding to Australia, leaving the smoking ruins behind for others to clean up.

That is just not an approach that's available or desirable to most other citizens of the UK.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:38 pm

Klaus wrote:
It is troubling but unfortunately common that the victims keep defending the very people who are stripping their future bare at the same time.

Well, they accounted for 52% of the voters who voted leave, and a lot of them were spread across all political parties, indeed there are / were labour strongholds who voted leave, so not as simple a situation as just picking on the Tories, Nigel or the other demographics that were thrown in after the result was known.
The population in the UK has been drilled for decades by the Elites in parliament that the EU is responsible for all their ill's, so I am unsure why the vote result was such a shock, protest or not.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:11 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
Brussels (…) refused to negotiate the future relationship untill the WA was signed, it’s a matter of public record that this was going to happen by them irrespective of a soft or hard exit.

Right after Brexit, Britain can negotiate a FTA with the EU which -by your own statements- will solve the issue of the backstop and make it needless, so the obvious solution then is to take the backstop out of the WA now -like you want- and to move it to the phase dedicated for the future negotiations on that FTA, isn't it?
Well, that can be easily done if you don't need the backstop to withdraw from the EU in the first place, meaning going for a (temporary) soft Brexit only.
:yes:


I find it interesting that you remove part of the post as it then changes context to suit your own narrative. Under the process of Article 50 the future relationship is not conducted after Brexit unless no agreement has been reached and or the agreement is not ratified by both parliaments in the 2 year period, you do realise that the negotiations period is there to conduct all aspects of the negations to withdrawing from the EU in that 2 years period. or longer by agreed extension. The actual transition phase is an option add by the UK but makes sense to give time to cross over from the status quo to the new future relationship,


sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
We are not having a phased approach that you have come up with, we are after a final deal, not something that’s cropping up every few years

First of all: 'we'????
Are you speaking just for yourself here, or for Britain?
Because Britain's official policy very much is to persue a phased approach to Brexit: one in which it leaves (phase 1) and one in which it negotiates a FTA (phase 2).
TM explicitly agreed to this principple right from the start: .https://euobserver.com/brexit/138280


Your own link shows the UK preferred process to the negotiations "Until now, British prime minister Theresa May had insisted that both discussions should be held in parallell", until she rolled over on EU insistence that only 2 phases are in place for the negotiations period, negotiations for the withdrawal agreement then moving to the 2nd phase, the future relationship



sabenapilot wrote:
Secondly: the idea of an even thinner phased approach isn't mine at all btw, that would be too much credit really; it's actually an idea from the UK to pretty much do what you've been pushing all along: to add FTA negotiations and (part of the) withdrawal negotiations together!
The idea would be to divide the first of the two distinct phases required by the EU into two further subphases, the first one being merely a quick withdrawal from the EU from a purely legal point-of-view (a BRINO), so the second part of phase one can then be added to phase 2 and thus used to avoid the backstop from having to be agreed to prematurely.
You're pretty much arguing with yourself if you're now against this, you know? But I understand, since this proposal -which was acceptable to the EU- was recalled at the next meeting between DD and Michel Barnier because of too much opposition to it from Brexiteers: they didn't want to be seen as delivering a BRINO (first).
Yet another exit blocked off, only to find themselves locked in, afterwards.


What the hell are you on about?


sabenapilot wrote:
Thirdly, Europe IS going to constantly keep croping up in the UK, regardless the type of Brexit.
In fact, it's never going to go away anymore, with the regular flare up each time something controversial and likely quite divisive has to be discussed and decided.
Just look at the Swiss: they have no less than 20 permanent parliamentary joint committees with the EP and their ministers constantly have to talk to their EU counterparts from the EC in Brussels to make sure that all of their 120+ bilateral agreements with the EU are kept up-to-date...
As good as ALL of their MPs are a member of some joint committee with the EU, next to their regular committee membership at the national level, just to man all seats required!


That's par for the course, you only have to look inside the EU to see that as normal

sabenapilot wrote:
Don't expect the UK to fare any different: If you don't want matters related to the SM to fill the daily schedule of MPs at Westminster, then better devolve those technical matters back to the EU and the EP, which is the reason there's a dedicated parliament for the EU in the first place: prior to the Maastricht treaty, national parliaments had to discuss all these things too and many memberstates -including the UK- found it was almost becoming a full time job!


That wont be needed if we are not in the single market would it.


sabenapilot wrote:
You recently said I am looking at things throught rose-tinted glasses, but let me tell you that you clearly have ZERO understanding of how a medium-sized European neighbouring country interacts with the European SM, regardless whether they are in (via EFTA), or out (via own bilateral agreements). You're going to be much surprised still, and hugely disappointed, let me tell you that, because you can take Britain out of Europe, but you can't take Europe out of Britain.


So you are actually admitting that the EU is a bully...….interesting.
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:14 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Lots of things were said during the campaign that were either wrong or complete lies. It's amusing that you continue to put so much weight on what an ex-politician said years ago.

Rees-Mogg said in Parliament that a second referendum would be a good idea. You don't seem so keen on that statement.



Who was the prime minister at the time, who carried more weight, are we not ment to take the prime minister seriously now?


Are we still going to be able to do that, as from next week? ;)

Who exactly is this guy speaking for who's going to install himself in Nr 10, based on nothing but a a pretended command of a majority in the Commons that his predecessor once said she had, yet which has meanwhile been shown to be very questionable indeed going by the many votes she lost in Parliament, not least the one yesterday in which her successor basically got demonstrated he's more than 40 MPs short of any real-world majority even!
Just because the candidates elected to the Commons wear the same colour of badge, doesn't seem to mean they will all vote in line with the leader of that party anylonger…


Now put the actual conversation in context to the events leading up to referenda, what happened post referenda is another matter entirely.
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Who was the prime minister at the time, who carried more weight, are we not ment to take the prime minister seriously now?


Your faith in what a politician or political party says is touching but misplaced. Your faith in said politicians seems to only be applied selectively.

It’s almost as though you believe politicians have as much control as they seem to think they have. Bless.


It seems that you cant reconcile the facts of the matter pre referenda on what leaving the EU meant to the then prime minister David Cameron, we all know the shenanigans our political masters do and say during general elections
 
A101
Posts: 1016
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:33 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
it seems like BoJo just got a pre-emptive headcount of his 'majority' in case he wants to persue a no deal brexit:
MPs just passed an amendment which seeks to block any attempt by a future government to prorogue parliament to ensure a no-deal, with a majority of 41(!).
The vote also saw no less than 10 ministers in TM's government -and who can not vote against their own government- abstaining in the vote!
BoJo can say whatever he likes, he clearly will not have anywhere near the majority in parliament to go any rougher than TM tried to do…
Another extension, anyone, maybe? ;)


I was reading an interesting article earlier which brought up an intriguing point: the Queen is only supposed to appoint a Prime Minister who commands a majority in the house of commons...

To me, it therefore seems likely that:

a) BoJo is appointed at May's recommendation, "unconstitutionally" (I know we don't actually have one - but you get what I mean), then immediately demonstrates a lack of majority command in the house... then chaos ensues

or

b) BoJo can't actually be appointed as the Queen refuses, or May refuses, or civil servants step in and hold up the process to sort out the legalities... then chaos ensues

In either case, I stand by what I said a few weeks ago - this is all a stupid waste of time leading to an inevitable implosion in October.


My understanding is that the appointment of prime minister is by the royal prerogative and technically the monarch may appoint as prime minister anyone she wants, but in practice the appointee is always the person who leads a party of a majority in the House of Commons, in in this case parties that form an alliance and then forms a majority in the house.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:37 pm

A101 wrote:
Your own link shows the UK preferred process to the negotiations "Until now, British prime minister Theresa May had insisted that both discussions should be held in parallell", until she rolled over on EU insistence that only 2 phases are in place for the negotiations period, negotiations for the withdrawal agreement then moving to the 2nd phase, the future relationship

It doesnt matter what the intention WAS, I showed you what the reality IS now: a PHASED BREXIT.

A101 wrote:
What the hell are you on about?

Showing you that October 31st wont be the end state (if there's any change to the UK's status by then), so why not take the phased concept one step further to accelerate Britain's departure rather then keep stalling forever?

A101 wrote:
That wont be needed if we are not in the single market would it.

FWIW - Switzerland isn't in the SM either... :crazy:
You really need to do some reading up, I've told you before… especially Switzerland should be of great interest to you...

A101 wrote:
So you are actually admitting that the EU is a bully...….interesting.

No, I'm pointing out that you can't just ignore the fact that the EU will still be at your doorstep after Brexit and that the type of relationship you seek with it is just not on offer.
It's a reality check, simple as that really: just ask the Swiss.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21221
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:43 pm

A101 wrote:
Your own link shows the UK preferred process to the negotiations "Until now, British prime minister Theresa May had insisted that both discussions should be held in parallell", until she rolled over on EU insistence that only 2 phases are in place for the negotiations period, negotiations for the withdrawal agreement then moving to the 2nd phase, the future relationship

That was never a choice but simply a necessity. Whining, moaning and throwing childish tantrums about this obviously necessary sequencing wouldn't have made a bit of a difference – it didn't then and it won't now.

Mythologizing this rigid and immovable point may play well to a Farage crowd but like almost all of his propaganda it is exclusively based on his audience not having any clue on how the European Union actually works.

So you are actually admitting that the EU is a bully...….interesting.

The EU pursues its own interests, which are the interests of its member states – such as Ireland, for instance.

It is weird that this obvious fact causes such amazement in you any more, but despite numerous explanations and plenty of direct evidence still remaining in ignorance or at least feigning it is probably your only option to uphold your positions, because actually knowing anything about the EU directly obliterates those strange theories.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:47 pm

The British Royal Marines seized an Iranian tanker last week in accordance to #EU Syrian sanctions.
#Iran have now captured 2 #British tankers against international law.
Not one word from the EU denouncing this action only support from our #American cousins.

And yet some deluded EU cheerleaders will never accept that the UK’s closest ally is the USA and not any nation within the EU.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:54 pm

Klaus wrote:
par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
it is an interesting case study for what happens if Populism meets a party that refuses to play.....

best regards
Thomas

To put in in UK terms, what happens when Populism meets ELITES who refuse to play.......the blockers of Brexit are on both sides of the aisle.
In some case studies the original Brexit vote will go down as a vote against the elites who sit in power and do what they want to do, when they want to do it, without any thought
of the effects on those paying the price.

In actual fact, however, Brexit is driven by a bunch of elite renegades who never made it to the big league on their own merits and who see the wholesale destruction of the established order with all the fallout to the general population as their only opportunity to make it to the top despite their lack of talent, trustworthiness and responsibility. Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg are the perfect representatives of that mindset, with Rees-Mogg's father actually having laid out that exact strategy in a book.

Their relationship with the general people on the street is pretty much the same nigerian scammers have with their victims: They see them as easy marks to exploit for their own purposes and then to crush them under their boots once they have what they want ("Singapore on Thames", anyone?).

It is troubling but unfortunately common that the victims keep defending the very people who are stripping their future bare at the same time.


This is absolute nonsense.

Where do you find this drivel?
 
A101
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:58 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
It doesnt matter what the intention WAS, I showed you what the reality IS now: a PHASED BREXIT.
.

Correct, but not in your concept that the future relationship ala Norway + is negotiated after brexit

sabenapilot wrote:
Showing you that October 31st wont be the end state (if there's any change to the UK's status by then), so why not take the phased concept one step further to accelerate Britain's departure rather then keep stalling forever?
.


Unless another extension is granted their is only time for a no deal exit, even renegotiating the WA wont make it until the 31 oct

sabenapilot wrote:
FWIW - Switzerland isn't in the SM either... :crazy:
You really need to do some reading up, I've told you before… especially Switzerland should be of great interest to you...
.

don't need to we are not switzerland

sabenapilot wrote:
No, I'm pointing out that you can't just ignore the fact that the EU will still be at your doorstep after Brexit and that the type of relationship you seek with it is just not on offer.
It's a reality check, simple as that really: just ask the Swiss.


To whom the bully tactics are applying, and they pushed back. just ask the Swiss

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -at-moment
 
Klaus
Posts: 21221
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:59 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
This is absolute nonsense.

Where do you find this drivel?

Unfortunately in the real world, which has a habit of being inconvenient.

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