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olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:54 am

All statistics normally is inballanced and do not show the whole truth while in many cases services do not show in import and export statistics but later in statistics in monetary flows. Any news about how they have been effected?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:56 am

olle wrote:
Any statistics about services, the main uk export product?


not anything that is "real time" enough....

But i would assume it is much worse, since

a) service providers can much easier be changed or be reloceted
b) Most of the UKs service exports are financial services, and banks and money are not in fleeing, but backing away with some purpose..... and of course those will stop November 1st, 00:00:00 hours.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:05 pm

UK always talking about their deficit in trade against EU27. How big is this today if you include services like financial services?

I for example works for a big international company that has a office in London aónly to be close to financial markets. Now there is considerations that another one inside future EU must be opened and the London office downsized or moved because of Brexit. Is this kind of activities included in the UK export of services and the trade deficit?
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:09 pm

Express writes that the 39 billion Euro figure now has been going down to 33 billionEuro because of the delay of Brexit;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... gg-eu-exit

I consider that this is quit logical while the original 39 billion is based on the current budget period that UK agreed to be part of. For every month that go shorter period until next budget that does not include UK remains.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:31 am

olle wrote:
Express writes that the 39 billion Euro figure now has been going down to 33 billionEuro because of the delay of Brexit;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... gg-eu-exit

I consider that this is quit logical while the original 39 billion is based on the current budget period that UK agreed to be part of. For every month that go shorter period until next budget that does not include UK remains.


The EUs "Plan" is that BoJo can claim that as a "win", as he won´t explain, and his followers don´t understand anyways, that this simply follows from the prolonged membership.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:36 am

olle wrote:
Express writes that the 39 billion Euro figure now has been going down to 33 billionEuro because of the delay of Brexit;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... gg-eu-exit

I consider that this is quit logical while the original 39 billion is based on the current budget period that UK agreed to be part of. For every month that go shorter period until next budget that does not include UK remains.



I like the following quotes:

though the EU has not made Britain aware of the lesser charge.


and

The shocking change in figures comes as Mr Johnson today took office


One wonders, if we at airliners.net have figured this out already, how come that the British are only discovering it now? Either they really don know what they're talking about, ignorant or are just looking on a way to bad mouth the EU.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:28 am

LJ wrote:
One wonders, if we at airliners.net have figured this out already, how come that the British are only discovering it now? Either they really don know what they're talking about, ignorant or are just looking on a way to bad mouth the EU.


My guess: Because the British really don't understand how the EU works? They have always been a bit of reluctant member and haven't really cared too much about the Union, so have never bothered too much about it. Now they are finding out that the EU does not work the way they thought it did.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:52 pm

Yes, if we go back 3 years we can directly see that a.net people could more or less predict was what's going to
O happen.


1. The EU "stairway". Brexiteers still do not understand it.

2. How EU 27 prioritize single market before uk.

3. How short 24 month is for both leaving and sign FTA

4. Member of EU go first. Republic of Ireland is member uk is on its way out.

5 Scotland and future of uk.

6 GFA and ROI member ship in single market in respect of point 4.

7 divorce bill is no Devorce bill. Major part of the number is uk part of current budget. Smaller part is future cost like pensions etc.

8 Brexit is a lose situation for both UK and EU27. EU27 had this opinion from the start, Brexit UK said that after Brexit fast UK will have a much higher living standard day after election it was 50 years etc. No problem for UK car industry, Financial services.

9 Taking back control with hard borders meant hard border with ROI and France.

10 FTAs takes 7 around 7 years. Brexit said that 40 was going to be done before brexit on UK terms.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:11 pm

LJ wrote:
olle wrote:
Express writes that the 39 billion Euro figure now has been going down to 33 billionEuro because of the delay of Brexit;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... gg-eu-exit

I consider that this is quit logical while the original 39 billion is based on the current budget period that UK agreed to be part of. For every month that go shorter period until next budget that does not include UK remains.



I like the following quotes:

though the EU has not made Britain aware of the lesser charge.


and

The shocking change in figures comes as Mr Johnson today took office


One wonders, if we at airliners.net have figured this out already, how come that the British are only discovering it now? Either they really don know what they're talking about, ignorant or are just looking on a way to bad mouth the EU.


With Trump and Brexit we are past expert and past truth. Emotions is the core of politics.

For me we we have this periods with frequency. In west it happen around 1910 ending in the great war and in 1930 ending in world war again.

People like emotions. It is "we" against "them".The magic is to be part of what is defined as "we".

In Europe right now it is so funny to watch and it became in EU parliament.

We have post truth parties from UK, Poland, Sweden, Italy, France etc. They have defined we against them. Now they were supposed to in order to get influence to work together and define a new common "we" -> an European "we" against EU. It did not work very well. Italy Salvani realized in order to solve their problems they could not work with other post truth parties but need to work with traditional parties who understands that the problem of Italy is also problem of the other EU27 nations.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:30 pm

A101,

Correct me if I'm wrong but your main, only (?) problem with the WA is the Backstop UK can't escape without EU consent right ?

I have hard time to explain why I feel EU doesn't have any interest in such trapping, bus this guy does it very well in this thread !
Read it with an open mind, please.

EU negociators [...] see the backstop as a rare UK triumph, securing tariff and quota free access to the Single Market with few of the usual strings attached.


https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/sta ... 45473?s=19
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:25 am

Without the backstop how long time will it take until the question of a United ROI is back on the table?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:15 am

The fact that Brexiters try to portray the backstop as a tentative by the EU to grab NI is simply laughable. NI gdp is ridiculously low and there is nothing of value to get besides a devised area and more potential problems.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:49 pm

olle wrote:
Without the backstop how long time will it take until the question of a United ROI is back on the table?


Seems to be back on the table now, ever since the Brexit vote, since NI voted remain.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:52 pm

NI was solved by in practice GFA gave both sides dual citizenship in ROI and UK.


This was enabled by EU no hard border between ROI and NI (UK).

UK, USA, ROI and EU signed it.


ROI, EU and USA says that they will not accept GFA to be broken.UK do not care.

In USA Trump government says that an FTA negotiations will start after UK leaves EU. The majority in congress says that this FTA will never be accepted without GFA conserved and respected.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/18/no- ... -lawmakers
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:16 pm

olle wrote:
UK do not care.


Brexitremists don't care. That is something else as the UK doesn't care. I still hope that the majority of the British don't support this suicide mission they embarked on a few years back.

With the people in power now, you never know.

In the meantime, Rees-Mogg is - luckily -, focusing on the most important things. When he is gaining power in Westminster, he first priority was: Jacob Rees-Mogg introduces specific rules for staff with banned words and grammar demands.

David Lammy MP said: “Jacob Rees-Mogg esq., Secretary of State for dragging Britain back to the 18th century.

"Happy to wreck the economy and push millions into poverty, as long as we get to use Imperial measurements.”


I couldn't have said it better myself. Quite funny that among the banned words/phrases are: speculate, disappointment, I understand your concerns, equal.

When you think, things can't get any more delusional, you can count on the Brexitremist to come up with something to prove me wrong. :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:45 pm

Isn't it about time for Brexit part 7?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
UK do not care.


Brexitremists don't care. That is something else as the UK doesn't care. I still hope that the majority of the British don't support this suicide mission they embarked on a few years back.

With the people in power now, you never know.

In the meantime, Rees-Mogg is - luckily -, focusing on the most important things. When he is gaining power in Westminster, he first priority was: Jacob Rees-Mogg introduces specific rules for staff with banned words and grammar demands.

David Lammy MP said: “Jacob Rees-Mogg esq., Secretary of State for dragging Britain back to the 18th century.

"Happy to wreck the economy and push millions into poverty, as long as we get to use Imperial measurements.”


I couldn't have said it better myself. Quite funny that among the banned words/phrases are: speculate, disappointment, I understand your concerns, equal.

When you think, things can't get any more delusional, you can count on the Brexitremist to come up with something to prove me wrong. :roll:


Ministers requesting the use or non-use of certain phases is nothing new. It happens regularly and has done for my time working in the Civil Service.

As for the Imperial measurement use, well that is just common sense. Most everyday measurements in the UK use the Imperial system.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:54 pm

The strange thing about NI and open borders is because Brexit uk cannot accept a "soft" Brexit where there is no border checks - "take back control" of the borders.

Following EU relation stairway this means to be outside SM and schengen. Now "take back control" uk blame EU For the hard border between EU and UK.

I must say that the EU negotiation team must have been a miracle of patient with the UK negotiating team.

They do not only need to negotiate but also try to teach the UK negotiating team and administration about

What is GFA, what did uk sign up to?
what is a FTA and how is this negotiated?
what is WTO?
What is GATT 24?

ETC
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:26 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101,

Correct me if I'm wrong but your main, only (?) problem with the WA is the Backstop UK can't escape without EU consent right ?

I have hard time to explain why I feel EU doesn't have any interest in such trapping, bus this guy does it very well in this thread !
Read it with an open mind, please.

EU negociators [...] see the backstop as a rare UK triumph, securing tariff and quota free access to the Single Market with few of the usual strings attached.


https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/sta ... 45473?s=19


I think think it’s different strokes for different folks, I don’t think you or I will persuade each other or anyone to alter their own view points. The WA is just a rotten deal at its core. This paper gives an overveiew on the legalities on the WA, it’s not a Twitter account by a journalist but by accomplished professional group within their fields,

Martin Howe QC is a barrister in the fields of intellectual property and EU law:

Sir Richard Aikens PC is an arbitrator and Visiting Professor at King’s College London and Queen Mary University of London. He specializes in shipping, insurance, banking, international trade and arbitration., and

Thomas Grant is an international lawyer and Fellow of the Lauterpracht Centre for International Law in Cambridge and Senior Research Fellow at Wolfson College.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/wp-conte ... -Grant.pdf
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:50 pm

Brexit comes with a price, A101.

The EU solved the riddle by basically taking NI out of the UK in all but name and this idea was generally acceptable to most Tories: however they do not have a majority and rely on the DUP which is strongly opposed to it, hence the UK-wide backstop came into play and let me remind you once more: much against the will of the EU either!

One way out for all would be to just see a GE somewhere in autumn and a new Parliament where the DUP is no longer in a position to block this obvious solution any further: you'll see the UK sign up to the original deal the day after in case the Tories would gain a working majority in that GE. :white:

It might very well spell the beginning of the end of the Union though as the unique position NI will be given -combined with the changing demografics overthere- mean the north will be set on its way to reunification by all this, while I can see the Scottish overwhelmingly vote SNP again if only because they loathe BoJo and dream of what NI will get. If there's a clear majority for indepence in Scottland, it will be very hard to resist loud demands for another referendum, knowing all the rhetoric about 'will of the people' etc from those now in power when it came to their referendum.

Dark hours ahead for the UK, I'd say.
Brexit is the birth of English nationalism in politics and the other nations of the UK are taken as a hostage…
Until they'll have had enough of it all and decide to do their own exit for the (British) Union.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:10 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Brexit comes with a price, A101.

The EU solved the riddle by basically taking NI out of the UK in all but name and this idea was generally acceptable to most Tories: however they do not have a majority and rely on the DUP which is strongly opposed to it, hence the UK-wide backstop came into play and let me remind you once more: much against the will of the EU either!

One way out for all would be to just see a GE somewhere in autumn and a new Parliament where the DUP is no longer in a position to block this obvious solution any further: you'll see the UK sign up to the original deal the day after in case the Tories would gain a working majority in that GE. :white:

It might very well spell the beginning of the end of the Union though as the unique position NI will be given -combined with the changing demografics overthere- mean the north will be set on its way to reunification by all this, while I can see the Scottish overwhelmingly vote SNP again if only because they loathe BoJo and dream of what NI will get. If there's a clear majority for indepence in Scottland, it will be very hard to resist loud demands for another referendum, knowing all the rhetoric about 'will of the people' etc from those now in power when it came to their referendum.

Dark hours ahead for the UK, I'd say.
Brexit is the birth of English nationalism in politics and the other nations of the UK are taken as a hostage…
Until they'll have had enough of it all and decide to do their own exit for the (British) Union.


Please tell me in what international treaty do nations cedes their sovereign parliamentary rights over there own territory when legally withdrawing from an agreement other than by military force.


The price you put on it is given in a mechanism within the GFA which you are trying to upsurp, it’s has to be the determination of NI people if it wants to either be governed by the overall UK parliamentary system or the EU. Untill such a time comes the EU is exceeding its bounds on section 1 of A50
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:18 pm

U.K. Seems to forget that half of the NI population considered the uk rule and army as occupation force. That was the reason of ROI liberation war against uk in the 1920 and later the NI civil war, or the troubles.

Do uk really want this situation back? Does it want terror bomb in London? U.K. Policy seems to head for disaster....
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:23 pm

olle wrote:
U.K. Seems to forget that half of the NI population considered the uk rule and army as occupation force. That was the reason of ROI liberation war against uk in the 1920 and later the NI civil war, or the troubles.

Do uk really want this situation back? Does it want terror bomb in London? U.K. Policy seems to head for disaster....



That’s why there’s a mechanism in the GFA, I’m all for letting the NI people decide and let the chips fall where they may and that includes the Scottish.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:28 pm

A101 wrote:
Please tell me in what international treaty do nations cedes their sovereign parliamentary rights over there own territory when legally withdrawing from an agreement other than by military force.
The price you put on it is given in a mechanism within the GFA which you are trying to upsurp, it’s has to be the determination of NI people if it wants to either be governed by the overall UK parliamentary system or the EU. Untill such a time comes the EU is exceeding its bounds on section 1 of A50


2 things A101,

1/ the people in NI have voted to remain in the EU: that's exactly what is being honoured by signing the original WA.
What's wrong with respecting the referendum result now suddenly? ;)

2/ I've told you before, the ECJ can rule on the exact interpretation of article 50..
The ECJ has already ruled in favour of the UK on this matter before, notably on the fact that the UK can indeed revoke its intention to withdraw unilaterally.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:35 pm

A101 wrote:
I’m all for letting the NI people decide and let the chips fall where they may and that includes the Scottish.


An honourable position as it is entirely consequent throughout: sadly it is NOT the position of the British government.
it does not want to give the Scottish there second indyref, this time informed
it does not want to honour the result of the brexit referendum in NI in a dedicated way, despite the GFA making it clear the territory is not an eternal part of the UK by simple claim of sovereignty on it.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:01 pm

The problem is that if a majority of Catholics in NI push for NI to join ROI still the Protestant minority want to remain in uk.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:18 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

2 things A101,

1/ the people in NI have voted to remain in the EU: that's exactly what is being honoured by signing the original WA.
What's wrong with respecting the referendum result now suddenly? ;)

That would be good if the UK was just NI, but unfortunately its not


sabenapilot wrote:
2/ I've told you before, the ECJ can rule on the exact interpretation of article 50..
The ECJ has already ruled in favour of the UK on this matter before, notably on the fact that the UK can indeed revoke its intention to withdraw unilaterally.



So you want the ECJ to rule on whether A50 can turn territory of the leaving nation into its own for CU/SM reasons?

I can pretty much tell you the answer to that now :wave:
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:32 pm

A101 wrote:
So you want the ECJ to rule on whether A50 can turn territory of the leaving nation into its own for CU/SM reasons?

I can pretty much tell you the answer to that now :wave:

That is absurd nonsense.

Like any other treaty, you give and for that you take something, and for the continued access to the Single Market at the NI border the UK gives assurances of preserving the preconditions for that (and for the GFA).

That is it, and what you have posted is not even on the same planet as the actual facts.

This kind of pretense is the only way the ERC hardliners can justify for themselves (but only just that!) their declared intent to willfully destroy the Good Friday Agreement by putting their thumb on just one of the scales in the carefully balanced Northern Ireland peace accord.

All that dancing around the truth is for nothing because the crude reality simply is that destroying a crucial peace treaty is what the hardcore leavers intend to do. Blowing smoke around it is pointless.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:34 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

An honourable position as it is entirely consequent throughout: sadly it is NOT the position of the British government.


Which is their right to do so

sabenapilot wrote:
it does not want to give the Scottish there second indyref, this time informed


You actually don't know that until Brexit is sorted and finalised no one really knows the outcome yet

sabenapilot wrote:
it does not want to honour the result of the brexit referendum in NI in a dedicated way, despite the GFA making it clear the territory is not an eternal part of the UK by simple claim of sovereignty on it.



Once again it was a UK referenda not a NI referenda, until the mechanism within the GFA is enacted NI remains the sovereign territory of the UK hence the title United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:42 pm

French people are not considered very patriotic, and don't consider themselves such either. People usually don't own French flags, for example. Until recently when we were invited to display one after the 2015 terrorist attacks (I still don't own one).

I can't imagine French politicians accepting so casually big chunks of the country leaving, though. Even the recent referendum in New Caledonia had most politicians supporting the side that wanted to stay French, with the far right denouncing those who didn't.

I can only see extreme left politicians supporting independentist causes, following their internationalist, post nationalist ideas.

I guess the island of Mayotte has some similarities with NI, people living there are the same people living in the Comoros, and the nation of Comoros wants it back. If Mayotte wanted to secede from France, I don't think there would be much opposition. But that's also why it won't happen, Mayotte is full of immigrants enjoying higher standards of living than in the Comoros.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:44 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
So you want the ECJ to rule on whether A50 can turn territory of the leaving nation into its own for CU/SM reasons?

I can pretty much tell you the answer to that now :wave:

That is absurd nonsense.

Like any other treaty, you give and for that you take something, and for the continued access to the Single Market at the NI border the UK gives assurances of preserving the preconditions for that (and for the GFA).

That is it, and what you have posted is not even on the same planet as the actual facts.

This kind of pretense is the only way the ERC hardliners can justify for themselves (but only just that!) their declared intent to willfully destroy the Good Friday Agreement by putting their thumb on just one of the scales in the carefully balanced Northern Ireland peace accord.

All that dancing around the truth is for nothing because the crude reality simply is that destroying a crucial peace treaty is what the hardcore leavers intend to do. Blowing smoke around it is pointless.



Your joking right? …………... look at the context of the statement please (in bold and enlarged)

So do you agree under his premise that the price of legally leaving as per the rules within the instrument means we have to cede territory to the EU and the ECJ can make an interpretation on that under A50?

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
Please tell me in what international treaty do nations cedes their sovereign parliamentary rights over there own territory when legally withdrawing from an agreement other than by military force.
The price you put on it is given in a mechanism within the GFA which you are trying to upsurp, it’s has to be the determination of NI people if it wants to either be governed by the overall UK parliamentary system or the EU. Untill such a time comes the EU is exceeding its bounds on section 1 of A50


2 things A101,

1/ the people in NI have voted to remain in the EU: that's exactly what is being honoured by signing the original WA.
What's wrong with respecting the referendum result now suddenly? ;)

2/ I've told you before, the ECJ can rule on the exact interpretation of article 50..
The ECJ has already ruled in favour of the UK on this matter before, notably on the fact that the UK can indeed revoke its intention to withdraw unilaterally
.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:53 pm

olle wrote:
UK always talking about their deficit in trade against EU27. How big is this today if you include services like financial services?

I for example works for a big international company that has a office in London aónly to be close to financial markets. Now there is considerations that another one inside future EU must be opened and the London office downsized or moved because of Brexit. Is this kind of activities included in the UK export of services and the trade deficit?


Well the trade deficit doesn't include services, as this is the main export of the UK, so presumably the UK imports less services than it exports. The UK imports plenty of stuff, that's what makes the deficit.

I'm guessing your company uses UK financial services, for example loans, or the issue of bonds, or facilitating the buying of other companies, or mergers, etc. If your company isn't from the UK, then yes, that would count as exports. If it has to use the same services but from banks in the EU, then that would be a loss for the UK economy, and trade balance.

My big international French company has offices and employees in the UK, however it's to sell services and stuff there, including to the government, so that would count as an import from the UK, an export from France. There is no expected issue from Brexit, but we shall see..
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:58 pm

But official uk is a federation of different states?

France is not.

Germany is. And did exist as separate states not more then 150 years ago.

Normally the best ending is that let a part that want to leave leave for both parties. Example Slovakia contra Kosovo, Bosnia etc.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:52 am

A101 wrote:
Your joking right? ………….. Look at the context of the statement please (in bold and enlarged)
So do you agree under his premise that the price of legally leaving as per the rules within the instrument means we have to cede territory to the EU and the ECJ can make an interpretation on that under A50?
(…)
Sabnapilot wrote:
2/ I've told you before, the ECJ can rule on the exact interpretation of article 50..
The ECJ has already ruled in favour of the UK on this matter before, notably on the fact that the UK can indeed revoke its intention to withdraw unilaterally
.



I will provide you the context, so you don't have to interpret me wrongly like you do...
Oh, and meanwhile take a sip from the watercooler, please.
No need to litterally scream at us here!

I am NOT saying the ECJ must rule whether the UK should agree to the backstop solution for NI, I am saying the ECJ is the ONLY entity which can say whether or not: (I quote)
A101 wrote:
the EU is exceeding its bounds on section 1 of A50

A claim you have made at least a 100 times in this thread over time, as if you're the specialist on EU constitutional matters, whereas for the rest you've displayed huge deficits in your basic understanding on how the EU works, which is something widespread in the UK btw, hence the mess it got itself into and from which it is likely not able to get out wihout losing a few limbs over time!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:28 am

Sabnapilot wrote:

am NOT saying the ECJ must rule whether the UK should agree to the backstop solution for NI, I am saying the ECJ is the ONLY entity which can say whether or not: (I quote)




The whole context of conversation was your claim that:

Brexit comes with a price, A101.

The EU solved the riddle by basically taking NI out of the UK in all but name and this idea was generally acceptable to most Tories:


And
2 things A101,

1/ the people in NI have voted to remain in the EU: that's exactly what is being honoured by signing the original WA.
What's wrong with respecting the referendum result now suddenly? ;)

2/ I've told you before, the ECJ can rule on the exact interpretation of article 50..
The ECJ has already ruled in favour of the UK on this matter before, notably on the fact that the UK can indeed revoke its intention to withdraw unilaterally.


You are trying to move the goal posts as it was clear what you were inferring,






Sabnapilot wrote:
A claim you have made at least a 100 times in this thread over time, as if you're the specialist on EU constitutional matters, whereas for the rest you've displayed huge deficits in your basic understanding on how the EU works, which is something widespread in the UK btw, hence the mess it got itself into and from which it is likely not able to get out wihout losing a few limbs over time!


I have never claimed to be a specialist on the EU treaty, but if you think it’s within the bounds of A50 that the nation leaving the union must cede sovereignty and that should go to the ECJ for clarification than you need to question your own judgement on the TEU
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:20 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101,

Correct me if I'm wrong but your main, only (?) problem with the WA is the Backstop UK can't escape without EU consent right ?

I have hard time to explain why I feel EU doesn't have any interest in such trapping, bus this guy does it very well in this thread !
Read it with an open mind, please.

EU negociators [...] see the backstop as a rare UK triumph, securing tariff and quota free access to the Single Market with few of the usual strings attached.


https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/sta ... 45473?s=19


I think think it’s different strokes for different folks, I don’t think you or I will persuade each other or anyone to alter their own view points. The WA is just a rotten deal at its core. This paper gives an overveiew on the legalities on the WA, it’s not a Twitter account by a journalist but by accomplished professional group within their fields,

Martin Howe QC is a barrister in the fields of intellectual property and EU law:

Sir Richard Aikens PC is an arbitrator and Visiting Professor at King’s College London and Queen Mary University of London. He specializes in shipping, insurance, banking, international trade and arbitration., and

Thomas Grant is an international lawyer and Fellow of the Lauterpracht Centre for International Law in Cambridge and Senior Research Fellow at Wolfson College.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/wp-conte ... -Grant.pdf


You can't be serious, I point you to a guy explaining why the Backstop is not desired by the EU side (it's a safety net, nobody wants to use a safety net, even less remain trapped insiste!).
And you come back with this junk??

It's ridiculous :
A ‘no deal’ exit from the EU means no Withdrawal Agreement under
Article 50; it does not mean leaving the EU with no deals of any kind unless
the EU refused to enter negotiations, despite the UK’s willingness to do so.

:banghead:
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:34 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
UK do not care.


Brexitremists don't care. That is something else as the UK doesn't care. I still hope that the majority of the British don't support this suicide mission they embarked on a few years back.

With the people in power now, you never know.

In the meantime, Rees-Mogg is - luckily -, focusing on the most important things. When he is gaining power in Westminster, he first priority was: Jacob Rees-Mogg introduces specific rules for staff with banned words and grammar demands.

David Lammy MP said: “Jacob Rees-Mogg esq., Secretary of State for dragging Britain back to the 18th century.

"Happy to wreck the economy and push millions into poverty, as long as we get to use Imperial measurements.”


I couldn't have said it better myself. Quite funny that among the banned words/phrases are: speculate, disappointment, I understand your concerns, equal.

When you think, things can't get any more delusional, you can count on the Brexitremist to come up with something to prove me wrong. :roll:


Ministers requesting the use or non-use of certain phases is nothing new. It happens regularly and has done for my time working in the Civil Service.

As for the Imperial measurement use, well that is just common sense. Most everyday measurements in the UK use the Imperial system.



The effect of uk leaving EU for the English language in EU has been described that it will be more simplefied more USA style.

I worked a few years ago in London and after being to a USA based university I considered myself pretty fluent in English. My boss had a degree from Cambridge and he complained constantly about my English that was so simple.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:44 am

By the way, the idea that European Union do not want to negotiate is a joke.

The negotiations from EU side has been well prepared, standpoints agreed within the parliaments and governments of eu27 during the last 36 month.

U.K. Came unprepared. Davis Davis and Bojo did not have a clue what Brexit meant, what was realistic to get from EU27.

I negotiate a lot in my work and we prepare weeks about what we can expect when we enter important meetings.

Davis Davis and the U.K. Team looked so unprepared and now in interviews with the EU team they got the same impression. U.K. People t
Should stop paying taxes for such bad work.

Now this unprofessional team shall lead uk to ne new bright future. God luck!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:50 am

A101 wrote:
You are trying to move the goal posts as it was clear what you were inferring,


Are you now seriously arguing that you know better what I ment to say and replied to, than I do, myself? :irked:
Seriously… Take a sip of the coolaid.

A101 wrote:
if you think it’s within the bounds of A50 that the nation leaving the union must cede sovereignty and that it should go to the ECJ for clarification than you need to question your own judgement on the TEU


Again, you are trying to read things I haven't said, something which is generally done by people running out of arguments to discuss what has actually been said.

You repeatedly refer to misuse of article 50 by the EU in the context of the NI backstop, yet this has nothing to do with article 50 at all.

The UK wants to leave the EU (as per article 50) and has only discovered after triggering the process that it is actually impossible to do so under the terms it seeks, not because of article 50 itself, but because of other legal commitments it has taken on in the past, like the GFA.

The UK then looked at the EU to solve the riddle, and it came up with a solution which is perfectly legal on all fronts, i.e. the NI backstop only and the Tories were perfectly fine with that first, until their supply and confidence partner propping up their government objected to it as with would split off NI from the rest of the UK economically, after which TM thought to havei found the solution by expanding the backstop to the entire UK thus doing away with the internal differences.It's yet another mess of British making you know?

The EU is perfectly fine with returning to their original offer and which is uniquely generous as NI would be te only territory in the world who'd be granted full benefits of SM and CU membership, without having to make any contribution whatsoever: NI is Norway or Switzerland, without any cost to them! See how big a gesture that is? All to save the GFA which is important to one smaller EU memberstate. And yet the Brexiteers can't even get to accept the concept in return for the type of brexit they have dreamt their entire life off? What's wrong with these people, I wonder....
Last edited by sabenapilot on Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:04 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101,

Correct me if I'm wrong but your main, only (?) problem with the WA is the Backstop UK can't escape without EU consent right ?

I have hard time to explain why I feel EU doesn't have any interest in such trapping, bus this guy does it very well in this thread !
Read it with an open mind, please.



https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/sta ... 45473?s=19


I think think it’s different strokes for different folks, I don’t think you or I will persuade each other or anyone to alter their own view points. The WA is just a rotten deal at its core. This paper gives an overveiew on the legalities on the WA, it’s not a Twitter account by a journalist but by accomplished professional group within their fields,

Martin Howe QC is a barrister in the fields of intellectual property and EU law:

Sir Richard Aikens PC is an arbitrator and Visiting Professor at King’s College London and Queen Mary University of London. He specializes in shipping, insurance, banking, international trade and arbitration., and

Thomas Grant is an international lawyer and Fellow of the Lauterpracht Centre for International Law in Cambridge and Senior Research Fellow at Wolfson College.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/wp-conte ... -Grant.pdf


You can't be serious, I point you to a guy explaining why the Backstop is not desired by the EU side (it's a safety net, nobody wants to use a safety net, even less remain trapped insiste!).
And you come back with this junk??

It's ridiculous :
A ‘no deal’ exit from the EU means no Withdrawal Agreement under
Article 50; it does not mean leaving the EU with no deals of any kind unless
the EU refused to enter negotiations, despite the UK’s willingness to do so.

:banghead:


Really you pointed to a twitter account that showed no legal basis in fact on the withdrawal agreement. It’s not like I expect you to understand the legal implications within the WA, as I said I don’t think you or I will persuade each other or anyone to alter their own view points.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:11 am

A101 wrote:
It’s not like I expect you to understand the legal implications within the WA, as I said I don’t think you or I will persuade each other or anyone to alter their own view points.


Nobody argues about the legal implications of the WA for the UK: they are the logical consequence of the longstanding guarantees the UK offers in the GFA, combined with its recent desire to pull out of the EU in such a way that those guarantees can no longer be maintained unchanged and in full: there's obviously a conflict there and yet brexiteers are the only ones not willing to see this, because the only solutions are to either change the type of Brexit to make it fall in line with the GFA, or alternatively leave NI behind in some diffferent arrangement, something which ironically would also fullfil its own desire… all the rest are just unicorns!
You can't have your cake and eat it, no matter how much you believe you can and the harder the UK tries, the ruder the awakening will be, because I don't know if you are fully grasping it yet, but a hard brexit may indeed set NI up for a departure from the Union in a couple of years already and if that ever happens, there's no way the Scottish can be benied their independence!!!
Seriously, is Brexit worth breaking up the UK for?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:44 am

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
You are trying to move the goal posts as it was clear what you were inferring,


Are you now seriously arguing that you know better what I ment to say and replied to, than I do, myself? :irked:
Seriously… Take a sip of the coolaid.


it what you actually reply to that sets the context of the post

sabenapilot wrote:
A101 wrote:
if you think it’s within the bounds of A50 that the nation leaving the union must cede sovereignty and that it should go to the ECJ for clarification than you need to question your own judgement on the TEU


Again, you are trying to read things I haven't said, something which is generally done by people running out of arguments to discuss what has actually been said.


Far from it, I'm responding to claims that are known to be false from remainers

sabenapilot wrote:
You repeatedly refer to misuse of article 50 by the EU in the context of the NI backstop, yet this has nothing to do with article 50 at all.


Really and in what document does the backstop become part of and under which provisions, ill tell you which agreement its not in the GFA



sabenapilot wrote:

The UK wants to leave the EU (as per article 50) and has only discovered after triggering the process that it is actually impossible to do so under the terms it seeks, not because of article 50 itself, but because of other legal commitments it has taken on in the past, like the GFA.


Really again with this nonsense, where does it say in the GFA that the UK must stay in the TEU


sabenapilot wrote:
The UK then looked at the EU to solve the riddle, and it came up with a solution which is perfectly legal on all fronts, i.e. the NI backstop only and the Tories were perfectly fine with that first, until their supply and confidence partner propping up their government objected to it as with would split off NI from the rest of the UK economically, after which TM thought to havei found the solution by expanding the backstop to the entire UK thus doing away with the internal differences.It's yet another mess of British making you know?


Show me your source that all Tories MP agreed with the backstop as proposed by the EU, you do realise the TM was overruling her own negotiations team with a number of people resign in protest of her handling of negotiations

sabenapilot wrote:
The EU is perfectly fine with returning to their original offer and which is uniquely generous as NI would be te only territory in the world who'd be granted full benefits of SM and CU membership, without having to make any contribution whatsoever: NI is Norway or Switzerland, without any cost to them! See how big a gesture that is? All to save the GFA which is important to one smaller EU memberstate. And yet the Brexiteers can't even get to accept the concept in return for the type of brexit they have dreamt their entire life off? What's wrong with these people, I wonder....


So you are returning to a point of turning NI into a vassalage nation without the first asking the NI people if the agree with it. Are you also expecting NI to pay tariffs for goods exported to the UK which are greater than the exports to the ROI/EU combined, what about VAT UK government spending etc
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:08 am

sabenapilot wrote:

Nobody argues about the legal implications of the WA for the UK: they are the logical consequence of the longstanding guarantees the UK offers in the GFA,

No ones arguing on the EU side as they designed the WA to impose maximum pressure on the UK to agree with everything the EU wants, the UK parliament has clearly said no to the EU as it puts the UK in such a disadvantage, withdrawing from the EU does not stop the UK from honouring its commitments to the GFA

sabenapilot wrote:
combined with its recent desire to pull out of the EU in such a way that those guarantees can no longer be maintained unchanged and in full: there's obviously a conflict there and yet brexiteers are the only ones not willing to see this,


Nope remember the resignations from the negotiations team and parliaments refusal to ratify. And with the majority of Parliament is pro remain, that must be telling you something about the WA in its current form

sabenapilot wrote:
because the only solutions are to either change the type of Brexit to make it fall in line with the GFA, or alternatively leave NI behind in some diffferent arrangement, something which ironically would also fullfil its own desire… all the rest are just unicorns!


Nope the solution is no deal exit on the 31st October


sabenapilot wrote:
You can't have your cake and eat it, no matter how much you believe you can and the harder the UK tries, the ruder the awakening will be, because I don't know if you are fully grasping it yet, but a hard brexit may indeed set NI up for a departure from the Union in a couple of years already and if that ever happens, there's no way the Scottish can be benied their independence!!!
Seriously, is Brexit worth breaking up the UK for?


I think you are overestimating what will happen in any possible future vote with Northern Ireland and Scotland but time will tell
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:30 am

The EU umbrella over the GFA or in combination with, created the "unicorn" that made peace in NI possible.

All sides got their will. The catholics got their union with ROI not in written but in real term by getting right to have ROI, UK dual citizenship, and develop close business relationship with the rest of ROI.

The protestants got the right to continue as UK citizen, of course remain superior then the catholic population etc.

People in England do not seems to understand that NI in reality is to different countries living like shadows beside each other.

GFA based on EU was the unicorn making this shadow reality possible and erased a very blody conflict.

So after a no deal brexit the unicorn is gone. People will go out of the shadows, with a protestant population partly looking down on the catholics, that probably by now is actually ROI citizen. Different now is that protestants now is in minority.

The new new majority catholics by principal not represented in parliament is suddenly citizen in the neighbour country, that has veto in the EU relationship with uk.

So the protestant population has now veto in uk politics, and the catholic population has equal veto thru ROI over EU politics.

Where is the popcorn???
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:15 pm

[/quote]The EU is perfectly fine with returning to their original offer and which is uniquely generous as NI would be te only territory in the world who'd be granted full benefits of SM and CU membership, without having to make any contribution whatsoever: NI is Norway or Switzerland, without any cost to them! See how big a gesture that is? All to save the GFA which is important to one smaller EU memberstate. And yet the Brexiteers can't even get to accept the concept in return for the type of brexit they have dreamt their entire life off? What's wrong with these people, I wonder....
Last edited by sabenapilot on 28 Jul 2019 09:05, edited 1 time in total.[/quote]

And it is peculiar that the Tories have simply not offered NI a referendum to accomplish this. But of course the simple reason is that DUP are bomb throwers and happy to have the GFA fail.

ps - there is little doubt that the referendum would pass. NI population gets to stay in the UK, also as ROI citizens they have full access to the EU. They already are separated from the rest of the UK by a sea. IIRC they need to show a passport when entering the UK via air or sea. Their goods would need to remain per EU regs, and most things coming from the rest of the UK likely will be EU acceptable. I believe the EU is prepared to be generous in dealing with the exceptions - marmalade and the such.
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Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:13 pm

Since the English government is full with hard right leavers since that coup, I bet the negotiations will be very short :)
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:58 pm

Olddog wrote:
Since the English government is full with hard right leavers since that coup, I bet the negotiations will be very short :)


Coup=coup d'état

Hell here I thought she resigned her position as it became untenable.

But I think your right the talks between the current UK government and the EU should be short and swift. One can only hope that come the 31st October we are out of the EU.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:18 pm

Trust me, you are not the only one wanting that.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11886
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:35 pm

Olddog wrote:
Trust me, you are not the only one wanting that.


:checkmark: too bad about the serious consequences, the EU doesn't need to be dragged down with the UK.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:47 pm

A101 wrote:
One can only hope that come the 31st October we are out of the EU.


Hope? Boris promised it, so it's got to happen*. Would you be willing to bet your house on it, though?


* Very sorry, banned word in there. Oh, and again. That's completely unacceptable. Doh! :banghead:
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