Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:25 am

I have just seen the press conference, Macron was almost openly laughing while looking at the BoJo show :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:17 pm

Olddog wrote:
I have just seen the press conference, Macron was almost openly laughing while looking at the BoJo show :)


Merkel and Macron have been very clever. Don't slam the door in BoJo's face, instead tell him "We'll consider any workable solution you can propose". Knowing full well that BoJo's got nothing. If this were a poker game, BoJo's bluffing with a pair of threes.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
BoJo's bluffing with a pair of threes.


i think you are overly optimistic about his cards....

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Thomas
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:38 pm

scbriml wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I have just seen the press conference, Macron was almost openly laughing while looking at the BoJo show :)


Merkel and Macron have been very clever. Don't slam the door in BoJo's face, instead tell him "We'll consider any workable solution you can propose". Knowing full well that BoJo's got nothing. If this were a poker game, BoJo's bluffing with a pair of threes.


And so BoJo has stared both the French President and the German Chancelor down and they have looked deep into his eyes and no, they haven't thought 'My God, this man is actually going to leave without a deal indeed' like he once claimed they would....
Instead, they both thought: 'My God, this man actually has no plan at all to get himself out of this'.

And so a very concerted aswer was given twice:
1- you fully and solely own the mess
2- the backstop is clearly very much needed, so it remains
3- if you don't want of it, then better change your red lines instead
4- see you again in 30 days, which is the last EU summit before Brexit
5- oh, and the EC really is in charge of this on our behalf, so please stop calling me with more nonsense (Macron).

How you can possibly feel powerfully encouraged by this message like BoJo claims, is beyond my understanding.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:58 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
How you can possibly feel powerfully encouraged by this message like BoJo claims, is beyond my understanding.


That message was not meant for you, but for the Brexiteers back home.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
How you can possibly feel powerfully encouraged by this message like BoJo claims, is beyond my understanding.


That message was not meant for you, but for the Brexiteers back home.

Still, one would think that even their gullibility should have its limits.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:46 pm

They believe that Hard Brexit is the best solution, so....
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:59 pm

Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
How you can possibly feel powerfully encouraged by this message like BoJo claims, is beyond my understanding.


That message was not meant for you, but for the Brexiteers back home.

Still, one would think that even their gullibility should have its limits.


Not if what they really covet is no-deal all along.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That message was not meant for you, but for the Brexiteers back home.

Still, one would think that even their gullibility should have its limits.


Not if what they really covet is no-deal all along.


Meanwhile, the pro-Brexit news outlets are making overtime spinning the outcome of these 2 meetings into a successful breakthrough (!), so it seems they are either living in a different universe full of alternative facts, or are ordered to keep appearances up till the very last minute to avoid panic and secure the valued but secretly envisioned hard Brexit.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:55 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Still, one would think that even their gullibility should have its limits.


Not if what they really covet is no-deal all along.


Meanwhile, the pro-Brexit news outlets are making overtime spinning the outcome of these 2 meetings into a successful breakthrough (!), so it seems they are either living in a different universe full of alternative facts, or are ordered to keep appearances up till the very last minute to avoid panic and secure the valued but secretly envisioned hard Brexit.


Setting the EU up for taking the blame in their eyes.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Not if what they really covet is no-deal all along.


Meanwhile, the pro-Brexit news outlets are making overtime spinning the outcome of these 2 meetings into a successful breakthrough (!), so it seems they are either living in a different universe full of alternative facts, or are ordered to keep appearances up till the very last minute to avoid panic and secure the valued but secretly envisioned hard Brexit.


Setting the EU up for taking the blame in their eyes.


Bloomberg noticed the clear difference in reporting too...

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... ium-europe
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 am

scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That message was not meant for you, but for the Brexiteers back home.

Still, one would think that even their gullibility should have its limits.


Not if what they really covet is no-deal all along.

So you think that was his actual plan, he just fell into it or it belongs to someone else?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
Setting the EU up for taking the blame in their eyes.

Millions voted leave because the EU is blamed for everything, I don't think any PR campaign now will get close to that effect.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:49 am

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Still, one would think that even their gullibility should have its limits.


Not if what they really covet is no-deal all along.

So you think that was his actual plan, he just fell into it or it belongs to someone else?


Depends on what it does to his net-worth. I would expect him to be a major beneficiary from Brexit in the medium to long run ...

Just look at his side jobs since he started seriously dumping on TM and her Brexit Plan last October:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10999 ... p#register

He is already reaping in quite some cash for rather short speaking engagements...

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Setting the EU up for taking the blame in their eyes.

Millions voted leave because the EU is blamed for everything, I don't think any PR campaign now will get close to that effect.


they have to drown out really, people that finally come to the conclusion that having been lied to all the time wasn´t good for them, or some weird notion of "greater good" tend to be pretty mad, the grudge holding type.

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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:49 am

Boris like a boss:

Image
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:20 am

Oh, it seems Boris has won! :rotfl:

Image
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:32 am

scbriml wrote:
Oh, it seems Boris has won! :rotfl:

Image

A lot of people will be dissappointed when October ends....
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:38 am

marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Oh, it seems Boris has won! :rotfl:

Image

A lot of people will be dissappointed when October ends....


Nope, the papers will write about the betrail of the EU, first promising the moon but they didn't deliver. :roll:

I should be writing for the Daily Express, too easy to come up with bullocks like this.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:02 am

Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Oh, it seems Boris has won! :rotfl:

Image

A lot of people will be dissappointed when October ends....


Nope, the papers will write about the betrail of the EU, first promising the moon but they didn't deliver. :roll:

I should be writing for the Daily Express, too easy to come up with bullocks like this.


fixed it for them:
Image

For lack of SplashDX i had to use Brittanic Bold :D

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
A lot of people will be dissappointed when October ends....


Nope, the papers will write about the betrail of the EU, first promising the moon but they didn't deliver. :roll:

I should be writing for the Daily Express, too easy to come up with bullocks like this.


fixed it for them:
Image

For lack of SplashDX i had to use Brittanic Bold :D

best regards
Thomas


Of course, all of this japery just glosses over the fact that the picture actually shows Boris stretching upon arriving home after a busy trip. Victory Salute my arse.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:15 am

To take a Brexiteer ww II point of view... Uk tory party acts like nazi regime in 1945 planning major offensives from their bunkers... Final victory until 2 weeks before the fall.


Tory party and uk right wing press have got 100% bunker mentality. Lets move the bad news until 6 weeks more.

I have the impression that EU governments will not give extension. Let us move on.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:26 am

olle wrote:
To take a Brexiteer ww II point of view... Uk tory party acts like nazi regime in 1945 planning major offensives from their bunkers... Final victory until 2 weeks before the fall.


Tory party and uk right wing press have got 100% bunker mentality. Lets move the bad news until 6 weeks more.

I have the impression that EU governments will not give extension. Let us move on.

Why should the EU give the UK government another extension?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:24 am

marcelh wrote:
olle wrote:
To take a Brexiteer ww II point of view... Uk tory party acts like nazi regime in 1945 planning major offensives from their bunkers... Final victory until 2 weeks before the fall.


Tory party and uk right wing press have got 100% bunker mentality. Lets move the bad news until 6 weeks more.

I have the impression that EU governments will not give extension. Let us move on.

Why should the EU give the UK government another extension?


While on the surface it's easy to imagine the EU being fed up with Brexit and wanting it over and out of the way, I think the EU would grant an extension if the Government lost a vote of no confidence and we were faced with a general election with multiple parties offering a confirmatory referendum.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:38 am

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
olle wrote:
I have the impression that EU governments will not give extension. Let us move on.

Why should the EU give the UK government another extension?


While on the surface it's easy to imagine the EU being fed up with Brexit and wanting it over and out of the way, I think the EU would grant an extension if the Government lost a vote of no confidence and we were faced with a general election with multiple parties offering a confirmatory referendum.


For the EU to grant an extension, first the UK have to apply for one. Something I can't see the current government do.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:03 am

Bostrom wrote:
scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Why should the EU give the UK government another extension?


While on the surface it's easy to imagine the EU being fed up with Brexit and wanting it over and out of the way, I think the EU would grant an extension if the Government lost a vote of no confidence and we were faced with a general election with multiple parties offering a confirmatory referendum.


For the EU to grant an extension, first the UK have to apply for one. Something I can't see the current government do.


Sure, but indeed if something changes the British dynamic, things might shift towards a general election and perhaps a people's vote. Then the EU will grant an extension if indeed asked for one. Don't know if the British Parlemaint could ask for one and bypassing the Johnson government?
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:24 am

Bostrom wrote:
scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Why should the EU give the UK government another extension?


While on the surface it's easy to imagine the EU being fed up with Brexit and wanting it over and out of the way, I think the EU would grant an extension if the Government lost a vote of no confidence and we were faced with a general election with multiple parties offering a confirmatory referendum.


For the EU to grant an extension, first the UK have to apply for one. Something I can't see the current government do.


Agreed. Which is why I framed the circumstances of them losing a vote of no confidence.
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
While on the surface it's easy to imagine the EU being fed up with Brexit and wanting it over and out of the way, I think the EU would grant an extension if the Government lost a vote of no confidence and we were faced with a general election with multiple parties offering a confirmatory referendum.

In my opinion, based on the way the EU is made up / designed, it makes no difference whether they grant an extension and for how long. The UK is still in the EU providing little to no input on any decisions to be made since they already invoked Article 50, the UK has to continue living by and following the rules and regulations of the EU, so if they extend every month it really makes little to no difference to the EU. Heck if they allow this to go on for a year they could say to the UK that they lived under the Norway model for a year and had no problems.
The UK on the other hand will have all the politicians, media houses and whoever else needs or wants media time to carry on smartly.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:02 pm

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
While on the surface it's easy to imagine the EU being fed up with Brexit and wanting it over and out of the way, I think the EU would grant an extension if the Government lost a vote of no confidence and we were faced with a general election with multiple parties offering a confirmatory referendum.

In my opinion, based on the way the EU is made up / designed, it makes no difference whether they grant an extension and for how long. The UK is still in the EU providing little to no input on any decisions to be made since they already invoked Article 50, the UK has to continue living by and following the rules and regulations of the EU, so if they extend every month it really makes little to no difference to the EU. Heck if they allow this to go on for a year they could say to the UK that they lived under the Norway model for a year and had no problems.
The UK on the other hand will have all the politicians, media houses and whoever else needs or wants media time to carry on smartly.


The ambiguity plan presented here falls apart if you think about any practical issues for example businesses exporting stuff to EU across the border. If EU says UK is out and there must be paperwork and customs at the border then there is nothing UK exporters can do than fill the forms and pay customs and so UK is out. Also this kind of ambiquity is a sure way to get into massive recession as no business wants to invest into country like that. It cannot go on for long.

On the other hand what could happen is that EU unilaterally offers a short last minute extension in the last week before Oct31 with strict but fair conditions attached to it. BoJo now must make a decision whether he truly wants to have his brexit and truly own all of the mess that awaits just around the corner even in the eyes of brexiteers. EU could buy whole page ads in all UK papers to explain all the horrible things that are about to happen which BoJo has not even thought about 90% of them and he cannot answer how he has prepared for them.

If the extension is for example one month and BoJo accepts the extension then after a month the situation is pretty much unchanged. In this way EU can wear out the brexit will from UK brexiteers using that recession as a tool that pretty soon makes UK not want to continue doing this. After a couple of accepted extensions declining the next extension is more difficult than what it was before.

So the idea is pretty much the same except it does not work if UK is in the driving seat but the same thing done from EU side could be gold.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:08 pm

The EU is obligated to not directly interfere with the proceedings in the UK. so they can not do a media campaign. The EU can also not offer an extension, it can only grant one if requested by the UK.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:14 pm

seahawk wrote:
The EU is obligated to not directly interfere with the proceedings in the UK. so they can not do a media campaign. The EU can also not offer an extension, it can only grant one if requested by the UK.


Somebody else helpful soul could buy the ads.
Also the offered extension could be in the form of "We will accept an extension if requested exactly like this"
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:20 pm

LJ wrote:
There will be a "Goodbye" party at the Dutch beach near Wijk aan Zee on October 31st. It seems that 5,900 already announced they will attend the party announced on Facebook and 45,000 are interested. The organiser intends to apply for a permit as potential demand exceeded his expectations (though it originally started as a joke). In addition he already cliamed the URL byebyebritain.nl....

Link in Dutch only.
https://www.ad.nl/noord-holland/met-zijn-allen-groot-brittannie-uitzwaaien-op-31-oktober-in-wijk-aan-zee~a742fcd95/?referrer=https://www.google.com/


Kind of tempting to do the opposite: fly to Gatwick, go down to the cliffs of Dover and enjoy a picnic as the border clogs up and turns into a complete s#itshow. :lol:
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:23 pm

olle wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
The British PM visited Mrs. Merkel in Berlin today. In a nutshell:

1- the PM was told by Mrs Merkel that the onus to find an acceptable alternative to the backstop is on him; not the EU, not both parties together, but on him alone.
The PM accepted, meaning he's effectively given up on the concept to blame failure on the EU: if there's a Brexit crash landing in November, it's now entirely because BoJo FAILED to deliver an acceptable alternative… Not sure he fully realized what he just did there, because Merkel just made him the sole owner of any future failure by this single line!
Well played by her.

2- Mrs. Merkel said something quite complicated and open to a lot of interpretation, which translates in English as:
"The backstop would only come into effect if no other solution could be agreed that would protect the integrity of the single market. If one is able to solve this conundrum in NI, we have always said it would probably be found it in the next two years to come but it can also maybe be found it in the next 30 days to come. If so, then we are one step further in the right direction and we have to obviously put our all into this."
Which BoJo understood as being given a 30 day deadline to rework the backstop, while it could and probably has to be interpreted as just pointing out the backstop can be replaced by something else right until the very moment it kicks in, something which thus leaves the 2 years of the transition period in case of a Brexit with a deal, or indeed just 30 days from now in case of a no deal Brexit (because that's the date of last EU summit to sign any alternative of on).
Merkel at her best again… Just stating the dead obvious options on the table and BoJo falling for it as if it's a new way out being offered to him.
Poor performance by BoJo there, who clearly doesn't master the timeline of the EU, while Merkel clearly knows it to perfection and can use it to her benefit.

3- Merkel finished by explicitly saying she thinks the way to solve the issue with the backstop is closer integration between, which can easily be laid down in the political declaration, making the activation of the backstop totally unnecessary.
In other words: she's saying once again the UK has to give up it's red lines or own the consequences.

Conclusion: Berlin didn't move an inch, BoJo looked for a straw to hold on to and took the option of a 30 day ultimatum which wasn't even given to him (it it would, it would be greatly humiliating even, yet so is the state of British desperation now that even such an implicit ultimatum is thus accepted by the UK!)

Tomorrow President Macron.


EU27 will miss ms Merkel when she retires.

One super woman with dignity, honestly, trustworthy, super intelligent with deeply understanding of details meetin Boris..... How bad could it go?

It also confirms that this thread on A.net has better understanding of EU27 politics then uk government. Perheps uk forreign office shall come here for advice?

:checkmark: Ms Merkle is a pleasure to watch as she does this. Europe is lucky to have her.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:32 pm

seahawk wrote:
Boris like a boss:

Image


Makes me sick the way he puts his feet on the table like that. Political stunt? Or is he just an uncultured Swine? I respect Macron hugely, but I wish he'd have kicked Boris out of the Elysee right after that.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:36 pm

Interesting to see how EU sentiment has changed over the past few years since Brexit.

Image
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:03 pm

zkojq wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Boris like a boss:

Image


Makes me sick the way he puts his feet on the table like that. Political stunt? Or is he just an uncultured Swine? I respect Macron hugely, but I wish he'd have kicked Boris out of the Elysee right after that.


To be fair, I read that Macron joked that the table was a footstool and Johnson pretended to use it as one. With journalists and cameras present...

Now whether the result is down to his ineptitude or Macron setting him up is a matter for debate (I genuinely don't know either way).
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:09 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
zkojq wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Boris like a boss:

Image


Makes me sick the way he puts his feet on the table like that. Political stunt? Or is he just an uncultured Swine? I respect Macron hugely, but I wish he'd have kicked Boris out of the Elysee right after that.


To be fair, I read that Macron joked that the table was a footstool and Johnson pretended to use it as one. With journalists and cameras present...

Now whether the result is down to his ineptitude or Macron setting him up is a matter for debate (I genuinely don't know either way).


I’m far from a fan of Boris and this is exactly the sort of buffoonery I’d expect from him. However, it was a joke between him and Macron and not how the picture appears.

That said, Boris obviously didn’t think how it would look.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
scbriml wrote:

While on the surface it's easy to imagine the EU being fed up with Brexit and wanting it over and out of the way, I think the EU would grant an extension if the Government lost a vote of no confidence and we were faced with a general election with multiple parties offering a confirmatory referendum.


For the EU to grant an extension, first the UK have to apply for one. Something I can't see the current government do.


Agreed. Which is why I framed the circumstances of them losing a vote of no confidence.


And a parliament agreeing on a new government. And that doesn't look like the easiest thing since I think it will be very hard for remainer tories to support Corbyn. From an outside point of view, Jo Swinson seems like a good compromise candidate to lead a government that could be acceptable to both Conservative and Labour MPs keen on stopping a No Deal. But I don't know how realistic that is.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:05 am

Klaus wrote:
Brexit is a purely UK (actually primarily english) project and the full responsibility for its outcome rests with its proponents and supporters. The EU is merely insisting on its own interests as the UK government is scorching the earth around it..


Everyone recognises that the EU will protect its own interests, and the EU also has to recognises that the UK will do the same which is why Parliament voted to reject the WA

Klaus wrote:
As specifically to the backstop, it insures Ireland and the GFA against exactly those unilateral violations the UK government is trying to get absolution for. And such absolution can not and will not be given by Ireland and thus by the European Union.


The UK is in no violation in relation to the GFA it is actually the backstop within WA which places the GFA in violation

Klaus wrote:
The whole idea of getting dispensation from the requirements at the basis of the GFA are insane and completely unrealistic – it is based on the assumption that the other 26 EU member states will throw Ireland under the bus at the request of the UK government.


No one is asking for dispensation, the ROI/EU is using the pretext of the GFA mandates regulatory requirements of the CU/SM which is far from the truth

Klaus wrote:
But given that the backstop is just a transparent pretense to have an excuse for directly pursuing the crash-out Brexit people like Rees-Mogg have always been pushing for in order to further their own financial interests this is mainly about trying to get ahead in the blame game for the domestic UK audience.


Do you have a source that is the case, please show how leaving without a deal will further his own financial interests?

Klaus wrote:
That kind of thing would be completely insufficient to the much harsher border requirements post Brexit.
Even the norwegian and the swiss borders are fully controlled with full stop, cargo compliance checks and often thorough car checks – and both countries are even in Schengen with no anticipated divergence!
So no, none of those fluffy, superficial proposals holds up even just remotely to the harsh reality of the post-Brexit irish border. It's all just the usual chaff dispersed to sow confusion among the UK domestic audience (or at least among the shrinking subsection that's still receptive to that kind of thing) but it's just about as solid as a house of cards in a winter storm.


You’re making a judgement without knowing what the future relationship would be, but if the above has to be the case it is actually acceptable arrangement in relation to the GFA but not desired by both the ROI/UK

Klaus wrote:
That is exactly what the EU does: It builds consistency in standards and regulations to the point where exactly that becomes even possible.


Those standards you are talking about for electronic lodgement and payments are not just for those within the EU but also third nations, being in the EU doesn’t mean that administrative burden is not there its just in a different form

Klaus wrote:
And by pursuing Brexit the UK government is now making exactly that impossible again for the then-new EU external border in Ireland, so these light-touch controls become completely insufficient with Brexit and the ensuing divergence of standards and regulations.


By gosh how on earth does any third nation trade with EU members, would it be that third nation imports comply with EU standards and regulations and all the while not being under EU jurisdiction regulatory control.

Klaus wrote:
It is quite simple to understand, really.


yes, it is, it’s just that you are trying to make out that the UK is an untrustworthy partner hell bent on pushing non-compliant goods into the EU market.

Klaus wrote:
This is exactly what Brexit does: Resurrecting the difficulties, the overhead and the red tape which the EU has painstakingly eliminated through the decades. Isn't nostalgia fun?


A Free Trade Agreement can also reduce those hurdles to make it easier for third nations to trade with each other




Klaus wrote:
That is so utterly, breathtakingly ahistorical and such an aggressive distortion of reality that you should really check if there's a black hole in your living room warping the space-time continuum completely out of whack.


Nope as I said Cameron actually got the ball rolling on the referenda when he first entered office as PM as his political agenda was primary domestic focused, what he didn't want was were the factions bubbling away on leaving the EU which he hand first hand knowledge of whilst working with Norman Lamont and have been continually building since the late 1970's and with factions within Labour to commit itself to withdrawal from the EEC as part of its mandate in the 1980's

Klaus wrote:
You've come to a completely orwellian view of reality by now, have you?


Well you might like to think that but history doesn't change the facts

Klaus wrote:
Man, you're shredding even the last remains of your own credibility here. Is there anything left you won't stoop down to?


Seems to me your contempt of BJ is distorting your perception of fact from fiction in a reds under the bed kind of way

Klaus wrote:
Boris has consistently been lying about the EU and pushing hateful propaganda to further his own personal career since at least the 1980s and he's been completely consistent about that. Becoming PM without actually being competent or really working hard was his primary goal (and getting some cushy, well-paid and above all undemanding retirement position afterwards, of course) and he has at least achieved his primary objective at this point.
It's almost funny to watch him now reeling under the expectations that he'd have some real grasp of actual issues down to actual, real solutions which are quite impervious to his usual bluff-and-bluster approach for some reason.


Well I don’t buy into your theory that he knowingly had ambitions to become PM when he was a reporter during his time at the Times & Telegraph. What I see is that with the benefit of hindsight but hindsight is not always 20=20




Klaus wrote:
It is telling how extremely allergic to any form of responsibility and accountability you lot consistently are.


What has the history of UK political Euroscepticism and your flawed opinion that I do not take responsibility for my vote at a legal referendum in the UK got to do with it.

Klaus wrote:
Just why, oh why, if Brexit is such a brilliant project that absolutely everybody should want to take credit for it...?


It’s a collective belief of a number of people in a walk of life and not just one person that exemplifies those that want to leave the EU which resulted in a majority at the referendum.

Klaus wrote:
The term is reality displacement – coupled with still trying to keep an escape hatch open for when the victims of your project will come calling.
And they will.


No, the term is the minority wanting to disrupt the democratic legally voted will of the majority

Klaus wrote:
You personally may feel safe enough after absconding literally to the other side of the planet. Others won't have that opportunity and will have to deal with the fallout of that insane project in real life.


And here I am currently residing merrily in the old dart

tommy1808 wrote:
That is because you are ... we have been over this just a few weeks ago and yet you are still here and lie about the content to lie about the validity of the study.....


Nope not when the facts present themselves

tommy1808 wrote:
The study describes what would have happened if Art. 50 was triggered the next day, so this


It does no such thing no where in the study does it give a timeline of when A50 would be invoked, but it explicitly say’s:
“A vote to leave would cause an immediate and profound economic shock creating instability and uncertainty which would be compounded by the complex and interdependent negotiations that would follow. The central conclusion of the analysis is that the effect of this profound shock would be to push the UK into recession and lead to a sharp rise in unemployment.”
If you look at all the media prior to the referenda that points to the study come to the same conclusion that is a “leave vote “will spark the immediate recession

tommy1808 wrote:
The Document lays out what would happen in the two years between the Vote and leaving the EU, which requires vote and Art. 50 notification to by synonymous. Its right in the Foreword.


The forward post shows a possible picture that could occur if a vote to leave eventuated and what may happen if the treasury did nothing in the proceeding two years. There is nothing from David Cameron leading up to polling day that remotely suggested that a vote to leave would trigger A50 the next day. So the very act of producing such a document was to erode confidence in the leave vote prior to polling day.
The executive summary gives clear guidance on nature of the analysis when it says:
“To inform the decision that the British people will make on whether the United Kingdom (UK) should remain a member of the European Union (EU), this document provides a comprehensive, rigorous and objective analysis of the immediate impact of a vote to leave.”

tommy1808 wrote:
And the last time we have been over that very same document, it was also clear that they got many things smack on right, even with Art. 50 triggered much later and the UK still being in the EU.
They expected everyone to lose 4300 pounds after 15 years, relative to peers the UK is already missing 2000 USD GDP/Capita/PPP and Brexit hasn´t even happened yet. The average UK citizen is already 4% poorer than they otherwise would have been.....


I would not go that far the UK economy is performing better than expected considering all the doom and gloom peddled by pro remain and outside factors contributing



Dutchy wrote:
Only in your mind were goalposts moved. If we can't apply common sense, we all just speaking in terms of unicorns, not just the Brexiteers.


That’s the main point here isn’t it for the context of the conversation the claims were false from pro remain, pro remain like to claim the higher ground. Yet pro remain bring up false claim from leavers like its gospel.

Dutchy wrote:
And you are giving the perfect example, nowhere did I say that all trade will collapse, but 3million jobs lost, primary trade-related plus secondary jobs because of the self-inflicted downturn, is very feasible.


See what you have done there you continue to speculate and perpetuate the claim, because you directly correlate Brexit with trade and therefore job losses
The study suggest that estimated 3,445,000 jobs in the UK "depend upon exports to the EU" - 2.5 million directly and 900,000 indirectly. 'Direct' employment is people employed in industries that export to the EU, 'indirect' relates to jobs that come about as a result of increased demand for products resulting from exporters' profits and their workers' wages.
So, by default when perpetuate the claim corelating EU trade and Brexit would mean a collapse of trade between the UK/EU

Dutchy wrote:
But tell me, since you concede that the hard Brexit you want will lead to a downturn in economics, how many jobs do you see disappearing because of your wishes? And thus you think is perfectly acceptable. Although we do not know what you actually do, so we do not know if you actually benefit from a hard Brexit, all we know is that you have a way out, when the sh!t hits the fan.


I can’t tell you that as I do not know, yes and I do concede job losses are inevitable but that is the case in any reform not just Brexit, it was always certainly going to happen in the car manufacturing industry with a combination of new technology and trade agreements with JPN

Dutchy wrote:
Well, this opinion is expressed by Farage and Rees-Mogg, those two aren't the ones whom I would have guessed you cast doubt on their opinion since it doesn't help their case. But glad you think these two aren't trustworthy,


You must be mis-constructing my post, for all I know they are right we may not see the full benefits for 50 years all I pointed to was that it may not take that long to see any benefits. As to a testament on their character I have made no determination

Dutchy wrote:
I agree with that assessment


Which part?

Dutchy wrote:
As for your other assertions, the EU isn't the only way to increase the economy size


I agree here hence we leave the there is a possibility of supplying goods to different markets and standards which could in theory reduce the cost of production and open more markets to UK producers

Dutchy wrote:
but if you effectively cut yourself off from the 27 closest trading partners (and 80plus other trade deals with 20 on their way), it will have a significant effect


The intention in regards to trade was never to cut ourselves of from trade with the EU but to compete and trade more competitively across more markets. But trade was not the only focus of Brexit.

Dutchy wrote:
It will take at least ten years to have the same number of trade deals and in the meantime, you will have a negative effect for sure.


While yes once we leave the jurisdiction of the EU trade agreement will have to negotiated some will take longer than others, yes our greatest overall trade is with the EU and I don’t personally see an agreement being reached ant time soon. Trade with the EU will reduce but I do not imagine it will totally collapse. The market always adjusts and I see this as not much different to any other global event that affects the UK economy

Dutchy wrote:
If it is only 1% less economic cumulative growth per year - that is the conservative estimate, very conservative - it will put the UK at a disadvantage of a great percentile and that first needs to be taken back before we could see some benefits, so 30 years stands for reason. But I am eager to hear your estimate and your train on though that it isn't a true estimate and the benefits will be more apparent much sooner than that. (not expecting an answer though, you consistently refuse to answer the hard questions, so why would you answer these, you just criticize, nothing more.)


Since the referenda vote in 2016 growth has reduced but we still have growth, currently the BOE has said they expect the economy to slow further but should not slide into the negative., but that has more to do with the uncertainty than anything else.
I’m not worried if we are growing the economy at only 1% less per year less overall or even 10% on where it might have been is only speculative. But at the end of the day we need a result with the threat of recession hang over head of the major economies in the EU investors and the stock market need clarity to what is going to happen on the 31 October

olle wrote:

To take a Brexiteer ww II point of view... Uk tory party acts like nazi regime in 1945 planning major offensives from their bunkers... Final victory until 2 weeks before the fall.


I don’t see it as a fall I see it as doing what the electorate voted for, the only downside that an acceptable agreement could not be reached
 
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zkojq
Posts: 3825
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:16 am

Image

scbriml wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
zkojq wrote:

Makes me sick the way he puts his feet on the table like that. Political stunt? Or is he just an uncultured Swine? I respect Macron hugely, but I wish he'd have kicked Boris out of the Elysee right after that.


To be fair, I read that Macron joked that the table was a footstool and Johnson pretended to use it as one. With journalists and cameras present...

Now whether the result is down to his ineptitude or Macron setting him up is a matter for debate (I genuinely don't know either way).


I’m far from a fan of Boris and this is exactly the sort of buffoonery I’d expect from him. However, it was a joke between him and Macron and not how the picture appears.

That said, Boris obviously didn’t think how it would look.


Ok maybe I have interpreted the situation wrong.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9803
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:52 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Brexit is a purely UK (actually primarily english) project and the full responsibility for its outcome rests with its proponents and supporters. The EU is merely insisting on its own interests as the UK government is scorching the earth around it..


Everyone recognises that the EU will protect its own interests, and the EU also has to recognises that the UK will do the same which is why Parliament voted to reject the WA

Klaus wrote:
As specifically to the backstop, it insures Ireland and the GFA against exactly those unilateral violations the UK government is trying to get absolution for. And such absolution can not and will not be given by Ireland and thus by the European Union.


The UK is in no violation in relation to the GFA it is actually the backstop within WA which places the GFA in violation

Klaus wrote:
The whole idea of getting dispensation from the requirements at the basis of the GFA are insane and completely unrealistic – it is based on the assumption that the other 26 EU member states will throw Ireland under the bus at the request of the UK government.


No one is asking for dispensation, the ROI/EU is using the pretext of the GFA mandates regulatory requirements of the CU/SM which is far from the truth

Klaus wrote:
But given that the backstop is just a transparent pretense to have an excuse for directly pursuing the crash-out Brexit people like Rees-Mogg have always been pushing for in order to further their own financial interests this is mainly about trying to get ahead in the blame game for the domestic UK audience.


Do you have a source that is the case, please show how leaving without a deal will further his own financial interests?

Klaus wrote:
That kind of thing would be completely insufficient to the much harsher border requirements post Brexit.
Even the norwegian and the swiss borders are fully controlled with full stop, cargo compliance checks and often thorough car checks – and both countries are even in Schengen with no anticipated divergence!
So no, none of those fluffy, superficial proposals holds up even just remotely to the harsh reality of the post-Brexit irish border. It's all just the usual chaff dispersed to sow confusion among the UK domestic audience (or at least among the shrinking subsection that's still receptive to that kind of thing) but it's just about as solid as a house of cards in a winter storm.


You’re making a judgement without knowing what the future relationship would be, but if the above has to be the case it is actually acceptable arrangement in relation to the GFA but not desired by both the ROI/UK

Klaus wrote:
That is exactly what the EU does: It builds consistency in standards and regulations to the point where exactly that becomes even possible.


Those standards you are talking about for electronic lodgement and payments are not just for those within the EU but also third nations, being in the EU doesn’t mean that administrative burden is not there its just in a different form

Klaus wrote:
And by pursuing Brexit the UK government is now making exactly that impossible again for the then-new EU external border in Ireland, so these light-touch controls become completely insufficient with Brexit and the ensuing divergence of standards and regulations.


By gosh how on earth does any third nation trade with EU members, would it be that third nation imports comply with EU standards and regulations and all the while not being under EU jurisdiction regulatory control.

Klaus wrote:
It is quite simple to understand, really.


yes, it is, it’s just that you are trying to make out that the UK is an untrustworthy partner hell bent on pushing non-compliant goods into the EU market.

Klaus wrote:
This is exactly what Brexit does: Resurrecting the difficulties, the overhead and the red tape which the EU has painstakingly eliminated through the decades. Isn't nostalgia fun?


A Free Trade Agreement can also reduce those hurdles to make it easier for third nations to trade with each other




Klaus wrote:
That is so utterly, breathtakingly ahistorical and such an aggressive distortion of reality that you should really check if there's a black hole in your living room warping the space-time continuum completely out of whack.


Nope as I said Cameron actually got the ball rolling on the referenda when he first entered office as PM as his political agenda was primary domestic focused, what he didn't want was were the factions bubbling away on leaving the EU which he hand first hand knowledge of whilst working with Norman Lamont and have been continually building since the late 1970's and with factions within Labour to commit itself to withdrawal from the EEC as part of its mandate in the 1980's

Klaus wrote:
You've come to a completely orwellian view of reality by now, have you?


Well you might like to think that but history doesn't change the facts

Klaus wrote:
Man, you're shredding even the last remains of your own credibility here. Is there anything left you won't stoop down to?


Seems to me your contempt of BJ is distorting your perception of fact from fiction in a reds under the bed kind of way

Klaus wrote:
Boris has consistently been lying about the EU and pushing hateful propaganda to further his own personal career since at least the 1980s and he's been completely consistent about that. Becoming PM without actually being competent or really working hard was his primary goal (and getting some cushy, well-paid and above all undemanding retirement position afterwards, of course) and he has at least achieved his primary objective at this point.
It's almost funny to watch him now reeling under the expectations that he'd have some real grasp of actual issues down to actual, real solutions which are quite impervious to his usual bluff-and-bluster approach for some reason.


Well I don’t buy into your theory that he knowingly had ambitions to become PM when he was a reporter during his time at the Times & Telegraph. What I see is that with the benefit of hindsight but hindsight is not always 20=20




Klaus wrote:
It is telling how extremely allergic to any form of responsibility and accountability you lot consistently are.


What has the history of UK political Euroscepticism and your flawed opinion that I do not take responsibility for my vote at a legal referendum in the UK got to do with it.

Klaus wrote:
Just why, oh why, if Brexit is such a brilliant project that absolutely everybody should want to take credit for it...?


It’s a collective belief of a number of people in a walk of life and not just one person that exemplifies those that want to leave the EU which resulted in a majority at the referendum.

Klaus wrote:
The term is reality displacement – coupled with still trying to keep an escape hatch open for when the victims of your project will come calling.
And they will.


No, the term is the minority wanting to disrupt the democratic legally voted will of the majority

Klaus wrote:
You personally may feel safe enough after absconding literally to the other side of the planet. Others won't have that opportunity and will have to deal with the fallout of that insane project in real life.


And here I am currently residing merrily in the old dart

tommy1808 wrote:
That is because you are ... we have been over this just a few weeks ago and yet you are still here and lie about the content to lie about the validity of the study.....


Nope not when the facts present themselves

tommy1808 wrote:
The study describes what would have happened if Art. 50 was triggered the next day, so this


It does no such thing no where in the study does it give a timeline of when A50 would be invoked, but it explicitly say’s:
“A vote to leave would cause an immediate and profound economic shock creating instability and uncertainty which would be compounded by the complex and interdependent negotiations that would follow. The central conclusion of the analysis is that the effect of this profound shock would be to push the UK into recession and lead to a sharp rise in unemployment.”
If you look at all the media prior to the referenda that points to the study come to the same conclusion that is a “leave vote “will spark the immediate recession

tommy1808 wrote:
The Document lays out what would happen in the two years between the Vote and leaving the EU, which requires vote and Art. 50 notification to by synonymous. Its right in the Foreword.


The forward post shows a possible picture that could occur if a vote to leave eventuated and what may happen if the treasury did nothing in the proceeding two years. There is nothing from David Cameron leading up to polling day that remotely suggested that a vote to leave would trigger A50 the next day. So the very act of producing such a document was to erode confidence in the leave vote prior to polling day.
The executive summary gives clear guidance on nature of the analysis when it says:
“To inform the decision that the British people will make on whether the United Kingdom (UK) should remain a member of the European Union (EU), this document provides a comprehensive, rigorous and objective analysis of the immediate impact of a vote to leave.”

tommy1808 wrote:
And the last time we have been over that very same document, it was also clear that they got many things smack on right, even with Art. 50 triggered much later and the UK still being in the EU.
They expected everyone to lose 4300 pounds after 15 years, relative to peers the UK is already missing 2000 USD GDP/Capita/PPP and Brexit hasn´t even happened yet. The average UK citizen is already 4% poorer than they otherwise would have been.....


I would not go that far the UK economy is performing better than expected considering all the doom and gloom peddled by pro remain and outside factors contributing



Dutchy wrote:
Only in your mind were goalposts moved. If we can't apply common sense, we all just speaking in terms of unicorns, not just the Brexiteers.


That’s the main point here isn’t it for the context of the conversation the claims were false from pro remain, pro remain like to claim the higher ground. Yet pro remain bring up false claim from leavers like its gospel.

Dutchy wrote:
And you are giving the perfect example, nowhere did I say that all trade will collapse, but 3million jobs lost, primary trade-related plus secondary jobs because of the self-inflicted downturn, is very feasible.


See what you have done there you continue to speculate and perpetuate the claim, because you directly correlate Brexit with trade and therefore job losses
The study suggest that estimated 3,445,000 jobs in the UK "depend upon exports to the EU" - 2.5 million directly and 900,000 indirectly. 'Direct' employment is people employed in industries that export to the EU, 'indirect' relates to jobs that come about as a result of increased demand for products resulting from exporters' profits and their workers' wages.
So, by default when perpetuate the claim corelating EU trade and Brexit would mean a collapse of trade between the UK/EU

Dutchy wrote:
But tell me, since you concede that the hard Brexit you want will lead to a downturn in economics, how many jobs do you see disappearing because of your wishes? And thus you think is perfectly acceptable. Although we do not know what you actually do, so we do not know if you actually benefit from a hard Brexit, all we know is that you have a way out, when the sh!t hits the fan.


I can’t tell you that as I do not know, yes and I do concede job losses are inevitable but that is the case in any reform not just Brexit, it was always certainly going to happen in the car manufacturing industry with a combination of new technology and trade agreements with JPN

Dutchy wrote:
Well, this opinion is expressed by Farage and Rees-Mogg, those two aren't the ones whom I would have guessed you cast doubt on their opinion since it doesn't help their case. But glad you think these two aren't trustworthy,


You must be mis-constructing my post, for all I know they are right we may not see the full benefits for 50 years all I pointed to was that it may not take that long to see any benefits. As to a testament on their character I have made no determination

Dutchy wrote:
I agree with that assessment


Which part?

Dutchy wrote:
As for your other assertions, the EU isn't the only way to increase the economy size


I agree here hence we leave the there is a possibility of supplying goods to different markets and standards which could in theory reduce the cost of production and open more markets to UK producers

Dutchy wrote:
but if you effectively cut yourself off from the 27 closest trading partners (and 80plus other trade deals with 20 on their way), it will have a significant effect


The intention in regards to trade was never to cut ourselves of from trade with the EU but to compete and trade more competitively across more markets. But trade was not the only focus of Brexit.

Dutchy wrote:
It will take at least ten years to have the same number of trade deals and in the meantime, you will have a negative effect for sure.


While yes once we leave the jurisdiction of the EU trade agreement will have to negotiated some will take longer than others, yes our greatest overall trade is with the EU and I don’t personally see an agreement being reached ant time soon. Trade with the EU will reduce but I do not imagine it will totally collapse. The market always adjusts and I see this as not much different to any other global event that affects the UK economy

Dutchy wrote:
If it is only 1% less economic cumulative growth per year - that is the conservative estimate, very conservative - it will put the UK at a disadvantage of a great percentile and that first needs to be taken back before we could see some benefits, so 30 years stands for reason. But I am eager to hear your estimate and your train on though that it isn't a true estimate and the benefits will be more apparent much sooner than that. (not expecting an answer though, you consistently refuse to answer the hard questions, so why would you answer these, you just criticize, nothing more.)


Since the referenda vote in 2016 growth has reduced but we still have growth, currently the BOE has said they expect the economy to slow further but should not slide into the negative., but that has more to do with the uncertainty than anything else.
I’m not worried if we are growing the economy at only 1% less per year less overall or even 10% on where it might have been is only speculative. But at the end of the day we need a result with the threat of recession hang over head of the major economies in the EU investors and the stock market need clarity to what is going to happen on the 31 October

olle wrote:

To take a Brexiteer ww II point of view... Uk tory party acts like nazi regime in 1945 planning major offensives from their bunkers... Final victory until 2 weeks before the fall.


I don’t see it as a fall I see it as doing what the electorate voted for, the only downside that an acceptable agreement could not be reached


A101, this is totally unstructured, missing all context, are you seriously trying to get your point across, or just want to fill the forum?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:57 am

Is this bus still touring:

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:07 am

Bostrom wrote:
For the EU to grant an extension, first the UK have to apply for one. Something I can't see the current government do.


Actually it seems EU can offer an extention without UK request.
Of course UK would have to agree such an offer.
https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1 ... 19240?s=19
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:25 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
For the EU to grant an extension, first the UK have to apply for one. Something I can't see the current government do.


Actually it seems EU can offer an extention without UK request.
Of course UK would have to agree such an offer.
https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1 ... 19240?s=19


I'm not the least surprised by that, but they can't force UK to agree to one. But still, I don't think they will offer one without a request, the EU has so far been pretty clear that it is up to the UK to choose their path.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:36 am

Boris Johnson seeks legal advice on five-week parliament closure ahead of Brexit

Secret plan to block any delay in leaving EU is likely to anger European leaders at G7 summit.

Boris Johnson has asked the attorney general, Geoffrey Cox, whether parliament can be shut down for five weeks from 9 September in what appears to be a concerted plan to stop MPs forcing a further extension to Brexit, according to leaked government correspondence.

An email from senior government advisers to an adviser in No 10 – written within the last 10 days and seen by the Observer – makes clear that the prime minister has recently requested guidance on the legality of such a move, known as prorogation. The initial legal guidance given in the email is that shutting parliament may well be possible, unless action being taken in the courts to block such a move by anti-Brexit campaigners succeeds in the meantime.


Link to the article

So the Brexiteers truly have this undemocratic measure in mind to force their hard Brexit trough.

No denying it anymore. So that's where we are, we have reached that point. So what now? Will this Prime Minister be stopped before he can misuse the rules in order to make a Pyrrhus winning for himself and his party? Will the EU accept it - as they say - and put up a hard border and just do the no-Brexit with absolutely no deals meaning that everything will just stop on 1st of November.

I kind of hope the EU will respond with accepting a hard Brexit and offer no relief what so ever. Let them hit the brick wall, the EU tried everything but the hardliners don't want anything, so just let them go.

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:15 am

How to destroy democracy.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:47 am

I think webneed some expert help from our brexiteers in this forum;

How is democtracy secured by sending home parliament?

This go over my iq level...
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:18 am

Its an interesting stalemate between the UK & EU when you actually look without bias, both sides have backed themselves into corners on their respective positions: BJ with leaving in October and the EU with the Backstop. What are the possible ramifications of not coming to a deal within the next 30 days and parliament gets it wish for a GE?

The EU cant be seen to look weak in relation to the backstop and its perceptions of looking after a member nation: its a well none fact that UK needs the EU for trade as does EU needs the UK as leaving not only has trade implications but also overall RU budget, they want the WA signed just as much that Parliament do not want to leave without a deal

Boris has his own problems he has to make good on the policy of leaving on the 31 October as the ramifications will most likely mean the fall of his government if that happens then its most likely that the Conservatives & Labour will be lucky to fill a London bus of future MP's and we could well see Brexit party win a majority and Nigel Farage as PM.

What I think that needs to happen so both side don't have to budge from there respective positions, get started on informal talks on the future relationship by making them informal behind the scenes outside the glare of reporting on formal talks its the future relationship that will sort the problems of the backstop if they prove constructive its a starting point and win-win for both sides.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:31 am

A101 wrote:
Its an interesting stalemate between the UK & EU when you actually look without bias


You are not unbiased, sorry mate, nobody believes that you can look at the situation without bias.

A101 wrote:
What I think that needs to happen so both side don't have to budge from there respective positions, get started on informal talks on the future relationship by making them informal behind the scenes outside the glare of reporting on formal talks its the future relationship that will sort the problems of the backstop if they prove constructive its a starting point and win-win for both sides.


Ok, fine, but what happens in the meantime, your beloved hard Brexit?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Its an interesting stalemate between the UK & EU when you actually look without bias


You are not unbiased, sorry mate, nobody believes that you can look at the situation without bias.


Yes I have a view point which doesn't mean I cant stand back and look at the current situation and look at it objectively

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
What I think that needs to happen so both side don't have to budge from there respective positions, get started on informal talks on the future relationship by making them informal behind the scenes outside the glare of reporting on formal talks its the future relationship that will sort the problems of the backstop if they prove constructive its a starting point and win-win for both sides.


Ok, fine, but what happens in the meantime, your beloved hard Brexit?



what exactly is happening now in the meantime no one moves from there publicly known position instead of Boris coming up with a solution to the backstop and then then hopefully coming to an agreement, we have approx. 8 weeks for informal talks on a future relationship if they prove to be fruitful both sides can claim victory of being able to move forward with perhaps another 3mth extension to thrash out a last minute deal: nothing ventured nothing gained

If Boris government falls I don't think anyone really wants to see a possible Farage government, sometimes its with better the devil you know
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:01 pm

We don't care who will be the next UK PM. It is an internal UK problem, and no (veiled) threats can succeed. When you are out you are out and the life goes on.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins

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