LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:38 am

BestWestern wrote:
“We don’t expect our politicians, our prime ministers, to be saints. But we do require a basic level of morality and integrity. And of all the candidates in the Conservative party leadership election, Boris Johnson is the only one that I believe fails that test.”

Quote from the chairman of the conservative Muslim association.


Which basically guarantees he'll win given the anti-Muslim sentiment around Europe. He practically endorsed Boris with his comment.

BTW I recall that years ago Boris was a regular guest in Have I Got News For You. He predicted in the show he would become PM and everybody laughed at him about that statement. However, whether you like him or not, he seems to get want he wants.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:32 pm

LJ wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
“We don’t expect our politicians, our prime ministers, to be saints. But we do require a basic level of morality and integrity. And of all the candidates in the Conservative party leadership election, Boris Johnson is the only one that I believe fails that test.”

Quote from the chairman of the conservative Muslim association.


Which basically guarantees he'll win given the anti-Muslim sentiment around Europe. He practically endorsed Boris with his comment.


And?

Racists and islamophobes are not a majority.
At least not in the general population, but among Tory members, maybe...
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:58 am

Boris was favorite prior to his ambush which led to TM becoming PM, I expect something similar this time, issue will be that just like TM, we will not really know the true ambitions of the next PM because we were not really paying too much attention to them. If it is someone who previously held a post, we will know what they did there but have no idea of their national agenda, so the country will be in another flux along with Brexit.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:35 am

I vote for BoJo. At least it should be entertaining and the EU knows him and how to deal with him.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:12 am

Olddog wrote:
I vote for BoJo. At least it should be entertaining and the EU knows him and how to deal with him.


Entertaining, yes, but I doubt that the EU knows how to deal with him, or to be more precise, does he know how to get parliament behind a deal or a roadmap?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:02 am

The EU doesn't have to deal with him: the UK will crash out by october without any deal whatsoever, UNLESS he can convince Brussels he has an alterantive proposal that :
A- suits them equally well (or better even)
B - carries enough support to be acceptable to the British Parliament
If not, BoJo will fail and his government will likely be brought down from within by Tories who are against a no-deal departure, because in case of elections the EU will likely extend again...
 
B777LRF
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:28 am

Olddog wrote:
I vote for BoJo. At least it should be entertaining and the EU knows him and how to deal with him.


They know him alright, from his time as a 'journalist' hounding the halls of EU. He was either hated or disliked by everyone, had the trust and confidence of absolutely no-one, and was rightfully classified as a glory seeking fraudster, with his lack of intellect only eclipsed by his lack of work ethic.

They'll run him over in less time than it takes to flush a toilet. If that's your idea of entertainment, have at it. But does entertainment really have a place in the serious, grown-up, arena of politics?
Signature. You just read one.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:34 am

Well, it looks like the enlightened ones will elect entertainment.

BJ is a triumph of his education. A perfect example of confidence over competence.
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Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:40 am

Well being french, british can be annoying or entertaining. I prefer the later :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I vote for BoJo. At least it should be entertaining and the EU knows him and how to deal with him.


Entertaining, yes, but I doubt that the EU knows how to deal with him, or to be more precise, does he know how to get parliament behind a deal or a roadmap?

Why bother? The 31st October is “Kick them out”-day when BoJo is PM.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:50 am

marcelh wrote:
Why bother? The 31st October is “Kick them out”-day whoever is PM.


Fixed for you :D
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:13 am

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Why bother? The 31st October is “Kick them out”-day whoever is PM.


Fixed for you :D

Boris occupies the rock bottom regarding lack of trust and lack of respect from abroad and from the European Union and its member states in particular.

At least some of the others might still have a chance of getting listened to with some residual seriousness, but Boris has completey used up any credit and credibility long ago.

And the Tory leadership debate has not increased the changes of a better outcome much if at all – apart from Rory Stewart it was all empty sloganeering and grandstanding of exactly the same type that got you into your current mess in the first place.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:28 am

Maybe we'll get Boris Island after all.

But maybe the most entertaining episode is all the outrage over some candidate having snorted cocaine in their past as journalist, i.e. all of those being outraged about them now in the press probably did it themselves.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:15 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Why bother? The 31st October is “Kick them out”-day whoever is PM.


Fixed for you :D

Boris occupies the rock bottom regarding lack of trust and lack of respect from abroad and from the European Union and its member states in particular.

At least some of the others might still have a chance of getting listened to with some residual seriousness, but Boris has completey used up any credit and credibility long ago.

And the Tory leadership debate has not increased the changes of a better outcome much if at all – apart from Rory Stewart it was all empty sloganeering and grandstanding of exactly the same type that got you into your current mess in the first place.




Whoever gets in according to Brussels has no hope of changing the WA, so it dosen’t matter who’s in the top job. Parliament is not going to sign off on the WA as is. So we should be gone come October 31 if they intend to honour the referenda

So whoever gets in is stuck between a rock and a hard place
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:41 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:

Fixed for you :D

Boris occupies the rock bottom regarding lack of trust and lack of respect from abroad and from the European Union and its member states in particular.

At least some of the others might still have a chance of getting listened to with some residual seriousness, but Boris has completey used up any credit and credibility long ago.

And the Tory leadership debate has not increased the changes of a better outcome much if at all – apart from Rory Stewart it was all empty sloganeering and grandstanding of exactly the same type that got you into your current mess in the first place.




Whoever gets in according to Brussels has no hope of changing the WA, so it dosen’t matter who’s in the top job. Parliament is not going to sign off on the WA as is. So we should be gone come October 31 if they intend to honour the referenda

So whoever gets in is stuck between a rock and a hard place


Or another extension is requested by the UK and granted by the EU. All to avoid the cliff edge Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:44 am

I don’t see a further extension. The amazing British government has had close to three years.

People get what they vote for. Taking back control. Brexit means Brexit.
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sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:32 am

BestWestern wrote:
I don’t see a further extension. The amazing British government has had close to three years.

People get what they vote for. Taking back control. Brexit means Brexit.


It's interesting that almost all of the candidates for the leadership race at the Tories (and thus the post of PM) now timidly prepare the stage for another extension in some way, to the exception of BoJo.

Anyway, the irony of the matter seems to be that if BoJo gets the job, chances for another extension are actually highest, not because it will be requested by him (he won't), but because his own party will bring him down in parliament before the end of October! The fall of a minority cabinet will likely trigger an election a couple of weeks later -unless a government of national unity is formed- which will have Brexit as its central topic.

In that case, the EU is very likely going to grant the extension to see what the Brish people themselves really want now, after having different Tory PMs and Brexit secretaries unsuccessfully telling them what it was, whereas my personal feeling is the EU will not grant another extension without an election or a second referendum regardless who's the PM doing such a request.

Seems like the UK is well underway to fill the entire transitional period with a full membership status...

Anway, has anybody seen, read or heard a solid plan for AFTER Brexit yet?
I'm under the impression the Tories think that on October 31st (or whatever the date the UK will finally no longer be a member of the EU) the EU itself is dissolved and thus there will no longer be a problem at all! Blue Skies as from Holloween… or so they think! The real problem of dealing with the EU only start then for the UK!!!
Just have a look at how Switzerland is made to dance to the tune from Brussels over a new bilateral treaty replacing the 120 or so individual deals governing the CH-EU relationship so far, or risk EU-based investors being cut of from its stock market by the EC
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ing-treaty.
As from the moment the UK is on its own, it will have to behave towards the EU is a very similar was as it has been towards the US for decades already: to constantly flatter it and to be seen as fully united behind it, talking up a sort of imaginary special bond and a unique relationship on shared values and goals…
Now THAT is going to be asking quite a lot of mental flexibility of many in the UK, so I suggest they already start practicing on how to cajole the European Union in future wherever they have an opportunity for it. ;)
Last edited by sabenapilot on Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:37 am

Dutchy wrote:

Or another extension is requested by the UK and granted by the EU. All to avoid the cliff edge Brexit.



Really what’s the point of another extension?

If the EU is not going to compromise and the UK is not going to pass the WA then there is no point to an extension, all it’s doing is creating more uncertainty, least if they know no one is making a move everyone can move forward with planning under WTO rules or the mutual recognition agreements come 1st November
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:52 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Or another extension is requested by the UK and granted by the EU. All to avoid the cliff edge Brexit.



Really what’s the point of another extension?

If the EU is not going to compromise and the UK is not going to pass the WA then there is no point to an extension, all it’s doing is creating more uncertainty, least if they know no one is making a move everyone can move forward with planning under WTO rules or the mutual recognition agreements come 1st November


I agree an extension is not going to happen if its NOT BoJo who's the next PM: it's pretty much useless and Macron has already said he'd veto it.

However, if it is BoJo, then I think an extension might ironically be more likely because his government will not survive in Parliament and elections are going to follow: that has been said to be a valid reason to extend…

For the rest, the idea that the UK can move forward as from the moment Brexit is done, is the next big unicorn which will have to be slaughtered: the EU is going to remain a massive issue of British politics for the foreseeable future, much more so than it was right up until the referendum even and the reason for that is simple: events will no longer be controlled by the UK once out, it will now simply have to undergo them… Given the way the British economy is interwoven in the European one, that will mean constant infighting in the UK over why and how it should make sure to remain in tune with what Brussels is doing, similar to how the Swiss have to do: not sure how close you are following domestic Swiss politics, but if the debates in Bern over the many issues the EU constantly throws at them short notice is mind blowing. Good for Switzerland has no major domestic crises to handle, because it is absorbing most of the time of Swiss politicians…
Now I do wonder how the UK thinks it's going to be able to ever tackle its domestic issues of slow wage growth, housing crisis, school underfunding and other pressing thing in such a context however! :D
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:12 am

The UK government and Europe compromised to reach agreement. The UK, post agreement, wants Europe to soften their side of the deal to give the UK what the UK wants.

The only way an extension will be granted is if a second referendum is agreed to. Europe needs to move on. Rapidly.

Since the last extension, the UK governing party has done nothing to resolve the issues but have an intra party circle jerk.
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ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:34 am

With July and August coming up, summer vacation/holiday time to be in full swing, especially in the EU outside the UK. It is likely little will happen until September, then frenzied activity before the Halloween deadline for Brexit. Perhaps one good thing is that the politicians will be back in their districts, get to hear from their constituents and likely the news media will give the Brexit debate a well needed rest for some common sense to kick in.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:49 am

Well, it's not like much has happened since the October deadline was given so far, is it?

In fact, it seems to be a recurrent issue: each time the calendar shows a Brexit date sufficiently far out not to sense the urgent need to act sensible and get real, British politicians launch some sort of an election campaign, be it a GE or an internal leadership contest while making the bravest of unicorn promisses on a 'have our cake and eat it' type of Brexit, and each time the date nears again, the winner suddenly becomes far more concerned about the effects of Brexit to the point they extend it again... only to have a new round of politicians to shout slogans about betrayal and have their go with another round of impossible election promisses.
If you hadn't understood Europe was abused as a very convenient scapegoat to kickstart and fasttrack a politician's career in the UK yet, then Brexit certainly demonstrated it: too bad that because of Brexit, it does come with a reality check so soon after!
Until now, British politicians were sure they could claim and promise pretty much everything unverified, but not so any longer.
Hence the complete mess in the UK. Tells you a lot about domestic politics, really.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:05 pm

Going back to their constituencies can only make things worse, as people mostly don't understand the issues (and why should they, after decades of being lied to ?) and will only reinforce the idiotic ideas of a "Brexit dividend" and all that nonsense.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:31 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Well, it's not like much has happened since the October deadline was given so far, is it?

In fact, it seems to be a recurrent issue: each time the calendar shows a Brexit date sufficiently far out not to sense the urgent need to act sensible and get real, British politicians launch some sort of an election campaign, be it a GE or an internal leadership contest while making the bravest of unicorn promisses on a 'have our cake and eat it' type of Brexit, and each time the date nears again, the winner suddenly becomes far more concerned about the effects of Brexit to the point they extend it again... only to have a new round of politicians to shout slogans about betrayal and have their go with another round of impossible election promisses.
If you hadn't understood Europe was abused as a very convenient scapegoat to kickstart and fasttrack a politician's career in the UK yet, then Brexit certainly demonstrated it: too bad that because of Brexit, it does come with a reality check so soon after!
Until now, British politicians were sure they could claim and promise pretty much everything unverified, but not so any longer.
Hence the complete mess in the UK. Tells you a lot about domestic politics, really.



Crikey the why you talk is it’s been a revolving door of Prime Minister’s and extension’s under different PM’s. When all that’s happened is Cameron resigned on day 1 because he didn’t believe in what he was doing, May tried to push us blindly into a bad deal without seeing if she could get it passed before signing the document, then continued to flog a dead horse while at the same time running down the clock. A Parliament that refuse to acknowledge that they voted for the process under A50 and shows the do not stand for the result of a referenda hence the continuation of trying to block a no deal exit All the prospective candidates for PM have said they would like to leave with a deal but acknowledge that Brussels will be in its way for achieving that outcome revoking A50 didn’t get over the line so the reality is the WA not getting signed Brussels is not negotiating prospective candidates are telling it how it is no more extension’s after October 31 we all have to move on the current situation cannot continue indefinitely some one has to grow a pair.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:23 pm

Klaus wrote:
LJ wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
“We don’t expect our politicians, our prime ministers, to be saints. But we do require a basic level of morality and integrity. And of all the candidates in the Conservative party leadership election, Boris Johnson is the only one that I believe fails that test.”

Quote from the chairman of the conservative Muslim association.


Which basically guarantees he'll win given the anti-Muslim sentiment around Europe. He practically endorsed Boris with his comment.


And?

Racists and islamophobes are not a majority.
At least not in the general population, but among Tory members, maybe...


Any of evidence of this or is this another thing you have just made up?
 
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:57 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Or another extension is requested by the UK and granted by the EU. All to avoid the cliff edge Brexit.



Really what’s the point of another extension?

If the EU is not going to compromise and the UK is not going to pass the WA then there is no point to an extension, all it’s doing is creating more uncertainty, least if they know no one is making a move everyone can move forward with planning under WTO rules or the mutual recognition agreements come 1st November


The EU is not going to compromise on a compromise......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:00 pm

Another round of voting tomorrow, we will see whom remains.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:09 pm

olle wrote:


It all depends on whether you accept left wing crap newspapers like the Independent and Guardian that are ridiculously pro-remain.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The EU is not going to compromise on a compromise......



Hence the need not to sugar coat it from any of the candidates, they need to own up to it and tell it like it is. the EU is not going to compromise so we are leaving on October 31 end of story
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:20 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The EU is not going to compromise on a compromise......



Hence the need not to sugar coat it from any of the candidates, they need to own up to it and tell it like it is. the EU is not going to compromise so we are leaving on October 31 end of story


Sign the WA and you can in a controlled way. That will, at least, cushion your fall.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:29 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The EU is not going to compromise on a compromise......



Hence the need not to sugar coat it from any of the candidates, they need to own up to it and tell it like it is. the EU is not going to compromise so we are leaving on October 31 end of story


Sign the WA and you can in a controlled way. That will, at least, cushion your fall.


Nope all it will do is make the UK a vassal state of the EU.

Parliment has to accept the fact it voted for the referenda, it also voted on invoking A50 and the process for which it mandates, the have rejected the agreement by TM the EU will not renegotiate so the only option to parliment is a no deal exit for which they voted for they knew the process. Parliament is acting like petulant child they voted for all this now the don’t like the outcome. If they didn’t understand the process they should not have voted for it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:37 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Hence the need not to sugar coat it from any of the candidates, they need to own up to it and tell it like it is. the EU is not going to compromise so we are leaving on October 31 end of story


Sign the WA and you can in a controlled way. That will, at least, cushion your fall.


Nope all it will do is make the UK a vassal state of the EU.

Parliment has to accept the fact it voted for the referenda, it also voted on invoking A50 and the process for which it mandates, the have rejected the agreement by TM the EU will not renegotiate so the only option to parliment is a no deal exit for which they voted for they knew the process. Parliament is acting like petulant child they voted for all this now the don’t like the outcome. If they didn’t understand the process they should not have voted for it.


So in your view, you can't rethink your position, That is in fact what grown-ups do, think about the consequences of their decisions and if the circumstances call for it rethink their position and act accordingly. Situations are fluid and going in this with a dogmatic view will not end well.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Sign the WA and you can in a controlled way. That will, at least, cushion your fall.


Nope all it will do is make the UK a vassal state of the EU.

Parliment has to accept the fact it voted for the referenda, it also voted on invoking A50 and the process for which it mandates, the have rejected the agreement by TM the EU will not renegotiate so the only option to parliment is a no deal exit for which they voted for they knew the process. Parliament is acting like petulant child they voted for all this now the don’t like the outcome. If they didn’t understand the process they should not have voted for it.


So in your view, you can't rethink your position, That is in fact what grown-ups do, think about the consequences of their decisions and if the circumstances call for it rethink their position and act accordingly. Situations are fluid and going in this with a dogmatic view will not end well.



The position of no Deal exit was part of the process from the onset, it’s what they voted for.The U.K.’s position from the start should have been prepare for the worst case and hope for the best. The deal proposed by the government was a bad deal parliament refuses to ratify it so following the process leads us to a no deal exit. The UK is willing to sit down at that negotiation table to look for an alternative, The EU is not so lets stop beating around the bush’s.It is the electorate voted for and also parliament.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:59 pm

A101 wrote:
The position of no Deal exit was part of the process from the onset, it’s what they voted for.The U.K.’s position from the start should have been prepare for the worst case and hope for the best. The deal proposed by the government was a bad deal parliament refuses to ratify it so following the process leads us to a no deal exit. The UK is willing to sit down at that negotiation table to look for an alternative, The EU is not so lets stop beating around the bush’s.It is the electorate voted for and also parliament.


Seriously, do we need to debate again that what people voted couldn't be more diverse? - Norway / Switzerland model proposed by Farage to a no deal Brexit as a scare tactic by the government -. The WA is not a bad deal, a no deal is way worse and you still haven't grasped the magnitude of it, otherwise, you would never say that. But then again you have a way out. So you will not bare the consequences of your decisions like......................... a child.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
The position of no Deal exit was part of the process from the onset, it’s what they voted for.The U.K.’s position from the start should have been prepare for the worst case and hope for the best. The deal proposed by the government was a bad deal parliament refuses to ratify it so following the process leads us to a no deal exit. The UK is willing to sit down at that negotiation table to look for an alternative, The EU is not so lets stop beating around the bush’s.It is the electorate voted for and also parliament.


Seriously, do we need to debate again that what people voted couldn't be more diverse? - Norway / Switzerland model proposed by Farage to a no deal Brexit as a scare tactic by the government -. The WA is not a bad deal, a no deal is way worse and you still haven't grasped the magnitude of it, otherwise, you would never say that. But then again you have a way out. So you will not bare the consequences of your decisions like......................... a child.



Really, exiting without a deal is part of the process of Article 50. You can argue to the cows come home on what Brexit meant, but you cannot argue the process of A50 and where we are is a result of that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:08 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
The position of no Deal exit was part of the process from the onset, it’s what they voted for.The U.K.’s position from the start should have been prepare for the worst case and hope for the best. The deal proposed by the government was a bad deal parliament refuses to ratify it so following the process leads us to a no deal exit. The UK is willing to sit down at that negotiation table to look for an alternative, The EU is not so lets stop beating around the bush’s.It is the electorate voted for and also parliament.


Seriously, do we need to debate again that what people voted couldn't be more diverse? - Norway / Switzerland model proposed by Farage to a no deal Brexit as a scare tactic by the government -. The WA is not a bad deal, a no deal is way worse and you still haven't grasped the magnitude of it, otherwise, you would never say that. But then again you have a way out. So you will not bare the consequences of your decisions like......................... a child.



Really, exiting without a deal is part of the process of Article 50. You can argue to the cows come home on what Brexit meant, but you cannot argue the process of A50 and where we are is a result of that.


Not according to Article 50.2.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:11 am

Dutchy wrote:

Not according to Article 50.2.



Can you share you interpretation
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 204
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:50 am

A101 wrote:
Nope all it will do is make the UK a vassal state of the EU.


What's your definition of vassal state please ? Isn't it more or less to be a rule taker ?
As soon as your gov decided Brexit means leaving the Single Market, ie leaving your place as rule maker in the biggest single market in the world, it makes UK a "vassal state" of some other bloc/country by default.
All the great FTA UK will collect in the future will require concessions, the bigger the market the bigger the concession (as you already experienced it last year during the WA negotiation). You'll get used to it don't worry.

Or maybe, after all, it's better for UK to be a rule taker from the closest bloc, the one it actively shaped for decades, rather than to take its rules from overseas bloc/country ? :stirthepot:
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21222
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:23 am

A101 wrote:
Really, exiting without a deal is part of the process of Article 50. You can argue to the cows come home on what Brexit meant, but you cannot argue the process of A50 and where we are is a result of that.

Only inasmuch as Article 50 implies it as consequence of a total failure to come to a deal. And the hard right in the UK has been pushing for that total failure since forever.

But it is in no way "part of Article 50". This nonsense is only in line with the lying propaganda leading up to the referendum in 2016.
 
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Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:26 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Really, exiting without a deal is part of the process of Article 50. You can argue to the cows come home on what Brexit meant, but you cannot argue the process of A50 and where we are is a result of that.

Only inasmuch as Article 50 implies it as consequence of a total failure to come to a deal. And the hard right in the UK has been pushing for that total failure since forever.

But it is in no way "part of Article 50". This nonsense is only in line with the lying propaganda leading up to the referendum in 2016.


For the Brexiteers, no deal wasn't part of the equation, people tend to forget that, but Farage actively campaigned for a Norwegian style of deal, which is fine with the EU. But now Farage has radicalized and want a no deal Brexit. Looks to me that Farage and his sort, don't want anything at all and especially want to have no responsibility. They are like children, got what they want, but now want even more.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1683
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:50 am

I am not a Labour supporter, but since nothing was on TV last night I was trawling the channels when I stumbled across Tom Watson (Labour deputy) making a long speech that very strongly - and very convincingly - put the case of the EU being a very good thing indeed and that British values and standard of living are what they are because Britons are Europeans and EU citizens. He listed many reasons why this was so (it wasn't just an opinion or soundbite).

Very refreshing to finally hear someone here say it straight out. And I couldn't disagree with any of it.

I was hoping it might translate to some interesting news this morning, but the media have mostly ignored it. Looks like there's a movement within Labour to shift to pro-second-referendum & pro-remain, though...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Klaus
Posts: 21222
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:09 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I am not a Labour supporter, but since nothing was on TV last night I was trawling the channels when I stumbled across Tom Watson (Labour deputy) making a long speech that very strongly - and very convincingly - put the case of the EU being a very good thing indeed and that British values and standard of living are what they are because Britons are Europeans and EU citizens. He listed many reasons why this was so (it wasn't just an opinion or soundbite).

Very refreshing to finally hear someone here say it straight out. And I couldn't disagree with any of it.

I was hoping it might translate to some interesting news this morning, but the media have mostly ignored it. Looks like there's a movement within Labour to shift to pro-second-referendum & pro-remain, though...

Very good one indeed, and long overdue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ayA8ChksU
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:14 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I am not a Labour supporter, but since nothing was on TV last night I was trawling the channels when I stumbled across Tom Watson (Labour deputy) making a long speech that very strongly - and very convincingly - put the case of the EU being a very good thing indeed and that British values and standard of living are what they are because Britons are Europeans and EU citizens. He listed many reasons why this was so (it wasn't just an opinion or soundbite).

Very refreshing to finally hear someone here say it straight out. And I couldn't disagree with any of it.

I was hoping it might translate to some interesting news this morning, but the media have mostly ignored it. Looks like there's a movement within Labour to shift to pro-second-referendum & pro-remain, though...


I wouldn't put your hopes up. Sometimes the only way forward is to feel the shit and hit rock bottom than people are prepared to shift their grounds.

Rory Stewart seems to gain some momentum.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:19 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Nope all it will do is make the UK a vassal state of the EU.


What's your definition of vassal state please ? Isn't it more or less to be a rule taker ?
As soon as your gov decided Brexit means leaving the Single Market, ie leaving your place as rule maker in the biggest single market in the world, it makes UK a "vassal state" of some other bloc/country by default.
All the great FTA UK will collect in the future will require concessions, the bigger the market the bigger the concession (as you already experienced it last year during the WA negotiation). You'll get used to it don't worry.

Or maybe, after all, it's better for UK to be a rule taker from the closest bloc, the one it actively shaped for decades, rather than to take its rules from overseas bloc/country ? :stirthepot:


Indeed, A101 is still living off the illusion that once out, all problems with Europe will be over.

Reality is they will only start then: the UK will still want a FTA with the EU (WTO is a joke, especially for the UK-EU trade given its size) and the same problems will re-emerge then, so unless the UK tackles the problems the WA brought up, the UK simply won't be able to move forward, Brexit or not, because none of the problems are linked to Brexit in se, but to the WTO option chosen bo the government as its ultimate fall back outcome combined with the rather unique territorial situation the UK find itself in.

Seriously, the UK can't have its cake and eat it at the same time: not around the table of the EU in the living room, not in the back kitchen as some sort of a EU satellite state and not in the garden under WTO rules, sorry.

The UK really needs to accept it will have to somehow pay the price for being a country with holds controversial sovereignty over a part of its territory (NI), simple as that really, so either it can pretend its sovereignty is full throughout its territory but agree not test how far it can drift away from the EU (the vassal state solution), or it will have to accept some form of shared sovereignty over (part of) its territory.

What it can't do is have full sovereignty over its full territory and expect the EU to just accept that: I know it's what British politicians would want as an outcome and it comes as a great shock to many of them to see the EU isn't just going along with what the 'superpower aka the UK' offers the EU, and that's because the EU knows the UK isn't a superpower at all, in fact they are the superpower at the table and so far have been very kind on the wannabe in the room still.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:32 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I am not a Labour supporter, but since nothing was on TV last night I was trawling the channels when I stumbled across Tom Watson (Labour deputy) making a long speech that very strongly - and very convincingly - put the case of the EU being a very good thing indeed and that British values and standard of living are what they are because Britons are Europeans and EU citizens. He listed many reasons why this was so (it wasn't just an opinion or soundbite).

Very refreshing to finally hear someone here say it straight out. And I couldn't disagree with any of it.

I was hoping it might translate to some interesting news this morning, but the media have mostly ignored it. Looks like there's a movement within Labour to shift to pro-second-referendum & pro-remain, though...


The media haven’t mentioned it as it is not news and just nonsense.

Life would be far better in the UK had we not joined up all those years back. No bloody uncontrolled EU migration, billions of pounds wasted. Life would be better.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14184
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:53 pm

The UK never were full members anyway as to access without passports to the EU, never accepting the Euro and some other areas. Perhaps they should have been associate members of the EU, like Norway and Switzerland.
 
marcelh
Posts: 649
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:59 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I am not a Labour supporter, but since nothing was on TV last night I was trawling the channels when I stumbled across Tom Watson (Labour deputy) making a long speech that very strongly - and very convincingly - put the case of the EU being a very good thing indeed and that British values and standard of living are what they are because Britons are Europeans and EU citizens. He listed many reasons why this was so (it wasn't just an opinion or soundbite).

Very refreshing to finally hear someone here say it straight out. And I couldn't disagree with any of it.

I was hoping it might translate to some interesting news this morning, but the media have mostly ignored it. Looks like there's a movement within Labour to shift to pro-second-referendum & pro-remain, though...


The media haven’t mentioned it as it is not news and just nonsense.

Life would be far better in the UK had we not joined up all those years back. No bloody uncontrolled EU migration, billions of pounds wasted. Life would be better.

True, EU would be far better without the UK. So why are you still part of it?
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1145
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:32 pm

Fun poll today:

Image

I guess scotland will be a bit surprised (not) :mrgreen:
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:19 pm

marcelh wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I am not a Labour supporter, but since nothing was on TV last night I was trawling the channels when I stumbled across Tom Watson (Labour deputy) making a long speech that very strongly - and very convincingly - put the case of the EU being a very good thing indeed and that British values and standard of living are what they are because Britons are Europeans and EU citizens. He listed many reasons why this was so (it wasn't just an opinion or soundbite).

Very refreshing to finally hear someone here say it straight out. And I couldn't disagree with any of it.

I was hoping it might translate to some interesting news this morning, but the media have mostly ignored it. Looks like there's a movement within Labour to shift to pro-second-referendum & pro-remain, though...


The media haven’t mentioned it as it is not news and just nonsense.

Life would be far better in the UK had we not joined up all those years back. No bloody uncontrolled EU migration, billions of pounds wasted. Life would be better.

True, EU would be far better without the UK. So why are you still part of it?


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