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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:17 pm

A101 wrote:
What does Macron’s June review mean?


Macron wanted to give May only what she asked for, an extension till the end of June. The others wanted to give a longer one, till the end of the year, or more. So the review is a compromise to appease Macron.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Well, a delay so the UK parliament will rush to take a break the next 15 days :)


Yep. Got extra time to decide an issue of national importance? Let's take some time off! See you on 23rd April. You couldn't make this up. :banghead:


Reading the Guardian live blog, it is very depressing to hear the exact same tired old stupid arguments and points of view about no referendum, trying to get WA through parliament, trying to get the WA renegotiated etc. etc. from the goverment and Tory party.

Others are seeing this as a moment to pause and take account of public opinion - I've heard many voices outside government talking about referendum, peoples' council and other advisory measures and so on... but not for the Maybot and ERG. Oh no - time-wasting business as bloody usual.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Aesma wrote:
A101 wrote:
What does Macron’s June review mean?


Macron wanted to give May only what she asked for, an extension till the end of June. The others wanted to give a longer one, till the end of the year, or more. So the review is a compromise to appease Macron.


I imagine it also means an ultimatum from the EU in June if the UK has acted in bad faith (e.g. take the WA now or you're out with no terms in one week - after that we'll start negotiating on trade on the basis of the WA, of course!) or planning a timetable if there has been some progress.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:27 pm

 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:19 pm

Dogman wrote:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:26 pm

Dogman wrote:


“There was just so much unbelievable guff in Brexit’s trailer that it was obviously going to be a shit show.

“I mean, all that stuff written on the bus! The ‘breaking point’ poster. The cartoon villains with no shred of humanity.

“Brexit is possibly the most badly conceived series of all time and should never have been commissioned.

“It’s no Mad Men is it? Well, you know what I mean…”

:bigthumbsup:
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:49 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Sadly no matter what, serious and irreparable political damage has been done to the UK and in some ways to the EU as well. There will be a further erosion of trust in government, likely fewer voting, those that run for office to be more likely racist populist right wingers pushing dreams of unicorns.

For the EU it is actually a big, flashing neon advertisment!

Highlights:

• The EU actually, really throws its entire weight behind even a small member country if it's being threatened – european solidarity is real!

• The EU can and does act decisively, unanimously and consistently in matters of foundational importance.

• Attempts to divide and conquer individual EU countries have failed completely.

• The whole debacle is increasingly demonstrating the value of EU membership for the member countries (not least the other members' solidarity!).

• Especially in the Brexit process the democratic principles and actual democratic realities of the European Union have been demonstrated more clearly than ever before, defying the absurd nonsense from the europhobes.

• Myths of rainbows and unicorns outside of EU membership have gone up in smoke at the harsh crash into reality.

• The advantages of democratically legitimized but still united negotiating positions vs. an outside party have been exemplified more clearly than ever.

It's not accidental that all the various "exiteers" in other european countries have completely abandoned their illusionary aims after their claims have been crushed by the Brexit reality.

So while the UK actually leaving would of course remove some important mass from the EU, in almost every other way the Brexit attempt (so far) has actually substantially strengthened the European Union, both internally regarding its support in and by its member countries and abroad as a demonstration of unity and actual negotiation prowess against a common threat.

For the UK, on the other hand, it has demonstrated that pretty much all all the imaginary claims about the EU (being "undemocratic", "intent on destroying the UK", "inept", "ineffective", "chaotic", "disunited") are clearly proven false, but interestingly all those projections have turned out to be very much real in the UK's own political system and with its own political personnel – and most notably among those who pushed for Brexit the most.

Almost all those problems the EU has been scapegoated for have in fact been perpetrated and/or ignored by domestic UK politicians, and the current chaos is just the result of that recognition becoming ever more unavoidable by now, regardless how many smoke and stink bombs the fanatics are throwing as a rearguard diversion. Their time is running out.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:52 pm

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
What will be interesting is the EU elections - watch as the parties that said they'd deliver Brexit put up candidates. :rotfl:

Do they have to field candidates, what is the penalty if they don't?

Very simple: Zero seats!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:56 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Nope you are wrong.

Nope. I'm not.

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Labour supporters support remain.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-13186920

And there's lots more if you just care to look:
https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=labour+s ... ave+remain

Please do not post things that are not true.

I haven't and I won't.

How about you, though?
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:59 pm

A101 wrote:
The legality of signing the WA gives the EU total control of our sovereignty which contradicts our constitutional rights of to ” Parliament must not bind our successor” and also gives us no legal avenue to voluntary leave the EU unless we repeal the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) and if we did so being a member of the EU will find the UK in breach its obligations as a Member State, while Infringement proceedings could be brought against the UK before the ECJ.

The UK signed a peace treaty which effectively ended the Northern Irish civil war.

It boggles the mind that a significant number of UK politicians and citizens actually lusts for blowing up that peace treaty and throwing that long-oppressed colony back into that civil war and that they actually feel slighted by that internationally registered peace treaty being so hard to breach! :shock:
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:05 pm

Klaus wrote:
It boggles the mind that a significant number of UK politicians and citizens actually lusts for blowing up that peace treaty and throwing that long-oppressed colony back into that civil war and that they actually feel slighted by that internationally registered peace treaty being so hard to breach! :shock:

Is it your position that the only way peace can be maintained in Ireland is by the UK remaining in the EU, anything else will result in a restart of the "troubles"?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:08 pm

Klaus wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Sadly no matter what, serious and irreparable political damage has been done to the UK and in some ways to the EU as well. There will be a further erosion of trust in government, likely fewer voting, those that run for office to be more likely racist populist right wingers pushing dreams of unicorns.

For the EU it is actually a big, flashing neon advertisment!

Highlights:

• The EU actually, really throws its entire weight behind even a small member country if it's being threatened – european solidarity is real!

• The EU can and does act decisively, unanimously and consistently in matters of foundational importance.

• Attempts to divide and conquer individual EU countries have failed completely.

• The whole debacle is increasingly demonstrating the value of EU membership for the member countries (not least the other members' solidarity!).

• Especially in the Brexit process the democratic principles and actual democratic realities of the European Union have been demonstrated more clearly than ever before, defying the absurd nonsense from the europhobes.

• Myths of rainbows and unicorns outside of EU membership have gone up in smoke at the harsh crash into reality.

• The advantages of democratically legitimized but still united negotiating positions vs. an outside party have been exemplified more clearly than ever.

It's not accidental that all the various "exiteers" in other european countries have completely abandoned their illusionary aims after their claims have been crushed by the Brexit reality.

So while the UK actually leaving would of course remove some important mass from the EU, in almost every other way the Brexit attempt (so far) has actually substantially strengthened the European Union, both internally regarding its support in and by its member countries and abroad as a demonstration of unity and actual negotiation prowess against a common threat.



Punishments for Poland and Hungary for doing things the EU do not like?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:09 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Nope you are wrong.

Nope. I'm not.

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Labour supporters support remain.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-13186920

And there's lots more if you just care to look:
https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=labour+s ... ave+remain

Please do not post things that are not true.

I haven't and I won't.

How about you, though?


A Yougov poll of 16,000 does not prove anything. Please stop spinning nonsense.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:13 pm

Switzerland supreme court pulled a nice one to day:from

WITH a further six-month extension to Brexit and the can being kicked even further down the road, it was intriguing to note that the result of a nationwide referendum in Switzerland had been overturned.

The poll, held in February 2016, asked the country’s voters whether married couples and co-habiting partners should pay the same tax. Voters narrowly rejected the proposal, with 50.8% against and 49.2% in favour.

But the supreme court has now voided the result on the grounds that voters were not given full information, and the vote must be re-run.

The information provided to the electorate was judged “incomplete” and therefore “violated the freedom of the vote”, the court ruled.

During the referendum campaign, the Swiss government told voters that just 80,000 of married couples were paying more tax than couples living together. The true figure was almost half a million, the government later said.

The court’s statement noted that “keeping in mind the close result and the severe nature of the irregularities, it is possible that the outcome of the ballot could have been different.”

How refreshing this is as we look to the current situation in the UK, where voters were likewise not given the full information. The negative economic impacts of Brexit are becoming clearer and Brexiteer claims of £350 million a week to the NHS and that a deal with the EU would be “the easiest trade deal in human history” have quickly melted away.

Reality has struck, public reaction has changed and there is clear support not only for a People’s Vote but for staying in the EU. As with Switzerland, now that the circumstances have changed, we deserve the right to have our say.


A kick in the nuts to some :)
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Olddog wrote:
A kick in the nuts to some :)

Unfortunately Brexit is the reverse, the government only mis-informed, its the opposition (ultimately winners of the vote) who told lies.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:19 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Sadly no matter what, serious and irreparable political damage has been done to the UK and in some ways to the EU as well. There will be a further erosion of trust in government, likely fewer voting, those that run for office to be more likely racist populist right wingers pushing dreams of unicorns.

For the EU it is actually a big, flashing neon advertisment!

Highlights:

• The EU actually, really throws its entire weight behind even a small member country if it's being threatened – european solidarity is real!

• The EU can and does act decisively, unanimously and consistently in matters of foundational importance.

• Attempts to divide and conquer individual EU countries have failed completely.

• The whole debacle is increasingly demonstrating the value of EU membership for the member countries (not least the other members' solidarity!).

• Especially in the Brexit process the democratic principles and actual democratic realities of the European Union have been demonstrated more clearly than ever before, defying the absurd nonsense from the europhobes.

• Myths of rainbows and unicorns outside of EU membership have gone up in smoke at the harsh crash into reality.

• The advantages of democratically legitimized but still united negotiating positions vs. an outside party have been exemplified more clearly than ever.

It's not accidental that all the various "exiteers" in other european countries have completely abandoned their illusionary aims after their claims have been crushed by the Brexit reality.

So while the UK actually leaving would of course remove some important mass from the EU, in almost every other way the Brexit attempt (so far) has actually substantially strengthened the European Union, both internally regarding its support in and by its member countries and abroad as a demonstration of unity and actual negotiation prowess against a common threat.



Punishments for Poland and Hungary for doing things the EU do not like?


EU reminding these countries of things they actually agreed too? Stop framing this like this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:20 pm

par13del wrote:
Olddog wrote:
A kick in the nuts to some :)

Unfortunately Brexit is the reverse, the government only mis-informed, its the opposition (ultimately winners of the vote) who told lies.


:checkmark:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:22 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Nope you are wrong.

Nope. I'm not.

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Labour supporters support remain.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-13186920

And there's lots more if you just care to look:
https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=labour+s ... ave+remain

Please do not post things that are not true.

I haven't and I won't.

How about you, though?


A Yougov poll of 16,000 does not prove anything. Please stop spinning nonsense.


You have shown here that nothing will influence your goal. So this makes your spinning irrelevant.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:24 pm

par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
It boggles the mind that a significant number of UK politicians and citizens actually lusts for blowing up that peace treaty and throwing that long-oppressed colony back into that civil war and that they actually feel slighted by that internationally registered peace treaty being so hard to breach! :shock:

Is it your position that the only way peace can be maintained in Ireland is by the UK remaining in the EU, anything else will result in a restart of the "troubles"?

No, and that is not what the backstop says. Also, the backstop in its current form was asked for by the UK government, not by the EU27!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:01 pm

par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
It boggles the mind that a significant number of UK politicians and citizens actually lusts for blowing up that peace treaty and throwing that long-oppressed colony back into that civil war and that they actually feel slighted by that internationally registered peace treaty being so hard to breach! :shock:

Is it your position that the only way peace can be maintained in Ireland is by the UK remaining in the EU, anything else will result in a restart of the "troubles"?


A customs union is the bare minimum. And personally I don't see it as a position, but as a fact.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
A customs union is the bare minimum. And personally I don't see it as a position, but as a fact.

In a customs union the UK will have to implement the majority if not all EU rules and regulations related to trade and industry, they may as well stay in the EU.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:25 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
The legality of signing the WA gives the EU total control of our sovereignty which contradicts our constitutional rights of to ” Parliament must not bind our successor” and also gives us no legal avenue to voluntary leave the EU unless we repeal the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) and if we did so being a member of the EU will find the UK in breach its obligations as a Member State, while Infringement proceedings could be brought against the UK before the ECJ.

The UK signed a peace treaty which effectively ended the Northern Irish civil war.

It boggles the mind that a significant number of UK politicians and citizens actually lusts for blowing up that peace treaty and throwing that long-oppressed colony back into that civil war and that they actually feel slighted by that internationally registered peace treaty being so hard to breach! :shock:


Deflection tactics that dosnt answrr the question how the uk loses it ability to voluntarily remove itself from the EU within the WA
Last edited by A101 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:28 pm

Klaus wrote:
par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
It boggles the mind that a significant number of UK politicians and citizens actually lusts for blowing up that peace treaty and throwing that long-oppressed colony back into that civil war and that they actually feel slighted by that internationally registered peace treaty being so hard to breach! :shock:

Is it your position that the only way peace can be maintained in Ireland is by the UK remaining in the EU, anything else will result in a restart of the "troubles"?

No, and that is not what the backstop says. Also, the backstop in its current form was asked for by the UK government, not by the EU27!



Which was an amendment to the EU proposal that NI remains in the EU

Can you also tell us what the backstop says as an alternative to NI remaining in the EU is
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:32 pm

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
Klaus wrote:
It boggles the mind that a significant number of UK politicians and citizens actually lusts for blowing up that peace treaty and throwing that long-oppressed colony back into that civil war and that they actually feel slighted by that internationally registered peace treaty being so hard to breach! :shock:

Is it your position that the only way peace can be maintained in Ireland is by the UK remaining in the EU, anything else will result in a restart of the "troubles"?


A customs union is the bare minimum. And personally I don't see it as a position, but as a fact.




For the whole UK or just NI?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Nope. I'm not.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... t-13186920

And there's lots more if you just care to look:
https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=labour+s ... ave+remain


I haven't and I won't.

How about you, though?


A Yougov poll of 16,000 does not prove anything. Please stop spinning nonsense.


You have shown here that nothing will influence your goal. So this makes your spinning irrelevant.


Like looking in a mirror isn’t it :rotfl:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:03 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

A Yougov poll of 16,000 does not prove anything. Please stop spinning nonsense.


You have shown here that nothing will influence your goal. So this makes your spinning irrelevant.


Like looking in a mirror isn’t it :rotfl:


Nope, my position has changed. Has the brexitrimists?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You have shown here that nothing will influence your goal. So this makes your spinning irrelevant.


Like looking in a mirror isn’t it :rotfl:


Nope, my position has changed. Has the brexitrimists?


And your original position was, also is that on this verifiable on this board?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:12 am

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
Is it your position that the only way peace can be maintained in Ireland is by the UK remaining in the EU, anything else will result in a restart of the "troubles"?


A customs union is the bare minimum. And personally I don't see it as a position, but as a fact.


For the whole UK or just NI?


Either can work.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:13 am

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
A customs union is the bare minimum. And personally I don't see it as a position, but as a fact.

In a customs union the UK will have to implement the majority if not all EU rules and regulations related to trade and industry, they may as well stay in the EU.


Well that's a direct consequence of the GFA.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:40 am

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
A customs union is the bare minimum. And personally I don't see it as a position, but as a fact.

In a customs union the UK will have to implement the majority if not all EU rules and regulations related to trade and industry, they may as well stay in the EU.


Well that's a direct consequence of the GFA.



Not it’s not the GFA has nothing to do with trade or a member of the EU,

And NI cannot be in the EU if the rest of the UK is out, as the remain camp says the EU is a rules based union as soon as the UK repeals ECA 1972 EU jurisdiction no longer applies on sovereign UK territory for which also applies to NI. The only legal alternative for NI to remain in the EU is via reunification or independence
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:09 am

A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
In a customs union the UK will have to implement the majority if not all EU rules and regulations related to trade and industry, they may as well stay in the EU.


Well that's a direct consequence of the GFA.



Not it’s not the GFA has nothing to do with trade or a member of the EU,

And NI cannot be in the EU if the rest of the UK is out, as the remain camp says the EU is a rules based union as soon as the UK repeals ECA 1972 EU jurisdiction no longer applies on sovereign UK territory for which also applies to NI. The only legal alternative for NI to remain in the EU is via reunification or independence

The GFA mandates that the border remains open. And in the continued absence of any actually viable alternative solutions, only close alignment of both sides satisfies that requirement because otherwise WTO rules mandate a hard border (yes, that WTO!).
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:23 am

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Well that's a direct consequence of the GFA.




The GFA mandates that the border remains open. And in the continued absence of any actually viable alternative solutions, only close alignment of both sides satisfies that requirement because otherwise WTO rules mandate a hard border (yes, that WTO!).



You have a confusion how WTO rules relate to the GFA, The WTO has said that there is nothing in its rules that would force either the EU or UK to erect a hard Irish border after Brexit.

Yes you are correct the GFA stuipulates that border remains open for the free movement of people within Ireland,which has been the case since the creation of the Irish free state in 1922 people could walk freely between the two. The GFA says nothing about free movement of trade that is the key.

Under the GFA both ROI/NI can have different Statutory regulation controls without breaking the GFA, but as we have seen what the EU will do if we do not sign the WA the EU is refusing to move forward as it is doing everything in its power to force the UK into remaining in the EU


Also for the sake of it there is a model that can be used in Australia going from east to west,

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/importing-a ... heckpoints
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:11 am

The ROI and the UK became EEC members simultaneously so the open border was not a problem at the time.

As for what the WTO says, it's playing on words :

“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.

“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”

The Geneva organisation insisted that it would not impose checks along the Irish border.

“The WTO will not intervene unless one of its members brought a case,” said Mr Rockwell. “If they [the UK] do not apply any duties or customs procedures against other trading partners and they do not have a trade agreement, some people might not be happy about that and they can bring a dispute settlement case.”


The WTO is routinely used to attack other countries if there is hope to gain something out of it, you can bet there will be dozens of complaints about an open border between ROI in EU and UK outside EU the day after a no deal Brexit.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:24 am

And it works both ways. The complaint can also be filed against the EU and the UK.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:48 am

Aesma wrote:

The ROI and the UK became EEC members simultaneously so the open border was not a problem at the time.


Your referring to the customs border in 73, I’m referring to the free movement of people which has been avalible since 1922 with various acts of parliament on both sides of the border right up to 1973 when both joined.

The GFA is not a trade agreement and at the height of the Troubles and the security checkpoints were there solely for the purpose of stopping arms smuggling not to restrict the free movement of people or goods,but unfortunately one can’t do that without impacting the other, so unless they resort to a call to arms again a hard security border will not be needed



Aesma wrote:

As for what the WTO says, it's playing on words :

“There is nothing in WTO rules that forces anyone to put up border posts,” said WTO spokesman Keith Rockwell on a visit to Dublin last week.

“Someone has to bring a complaint and say that their interests have been hurt.”

The Geneva organisation insisted that it would not impose checks along the Irish border.

“The WTO will not intervene unless one of its members brought a case,” said Mr Rockwell. “If they [the UK] do not apply any duties or customs procedures against other trading partners and they do not have a trade agreement, some people might not be happy about that and they can bring a dispute settlement case.”


The WTO is routinely used to attack other countries if there is hope to gain something out of it, you can bet there will be dozens of complaints about an open border between ROI in EU and UK outside EU the day after a no deal Brexit.


That will only happen if they want to grant the island of Ireland a different tariff rate than to the rest of the UK and the UK thinks it can via the Public Morales Exemtion, than it would be a test case if a complaint was made to the WTO. A better argument for the UK might be the WTO ARTICLE XXI SECURITY EXCEPTIONS, where as It prevents any member from taking action against another state in order to maintain international peace and security.

But if the UK decides that it will not use different tariff rates than it’s up to the UK to decide if it wants to put up a customs control on their side of the border
 
A3801000
Posts: 556
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:21 pm

UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1RO1EF

:D
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:32 pm

A3801000 wrote:
UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1RO1EF

:D


But, but, but... Democracy!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1RO1EF

:D


But, but, but... Democracy!

Apparently for some, "democracy" as they see it is all about defending an accidental win of their own shrinking minority at all cost against the majority having changed their minds.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:18 pm

Klaus wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1RO1EF

:D


But, but, but... Democracy!

Apparently for some, "democracy" as they see it is all about defending an accidental win of their own shrinking minority at all cost against the majority having changed their minds.


Yes, for some "Democracy" is only voting once. :lol:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 641
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
For the EU it is actually a big, flashing neon advertisment!

Highlights:

• The EU actually, really throws its entire weight behind even a small member country if it's being threatened – european solidarity is real!

• The EU can and does act decisively, unanimously and consistently in matters of foundational importance.

• Attempts to divide and conquer individual EU countries have failed completely.

• The whole debacle is increasingly demonstrating the value of EU membership for the member countries (not least the other members' solidarity!).

• Especially in the Brexit process the democratic principles and actual democratic realities of the European Union have been demonstrated more clearly than ever before, defying the absurd nonsense from the europhobes.

• Myths of rainbows and unicorns outside of EU membership have gone up in smoke at the harsh crash into reality.

• The advantages of democratically legitimized but still united negotiating positions vs. an outside party have been exemplified more clearly than ever.

It's not accidental that all the various "exiteers" in other european countries have completely abandoned their illusionary aims after their claims have been crushed by the Brexit reality.

So while the UK actually leaving would of course remove some important mass from the EU, in almost every other way the Brexit attempt (so far) has actually substantially strengthened the European Union, both internally regarding its support in and by its member countries and abroad as a demonstration of unity and actual negotiation prowess against a common threat.



Punishments for Poland and Hungary for doing things the EU do not like?


EU reminding these countries of things they actually agreed too? Stop framing this like this.


So Brexit voters can change their minds, but nations are not allowed to?

Hilarious :)
 
KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1RO1EF

:D


But, but, but... Democracy!


Cheerleading for the potential annulment of the largest democratic exercise in British history? How pathetic.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
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A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:25 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Punishments for Poland and Hungary for doing things the EU do not like?


EU reminding these countries of things they actually agreed too? Stop framing this like this.


So Brexit voters can change their minds, but nations are not allowed to?

Hilarious :)


They're welcome to leave the EU if they don't like the rules or gather a critical mass of MEPs to have the rules changed.

Otherwise, they have to follow them just like everyone else.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:54 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1RO1EF

:D


But, but, but... Democracy!


Cheerleading for the potential annulment of the largest democratic exercise in British history? How pathetic.


Pathetic is thinking more voting is a bad thing. :spin:

Even Brextremists like Farage and Rees-Mogg both called for a second vote.

So what, exactly, is your objection to the idea of a confirmatory vote? You know, a vote where all the options are clearly defined rather a binary choice between a known and a complete unknown. What are you so scared of?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

But, but, but... Democracy!


Cheerleading for the potential annulment of the largest democratic exercise in British history? How pathetic.


Pathetic is thinking more voting is a bad thing. :spin:

Even Brextremists like Farage and Rees-Mogg both called for a second vote.

So what, exactly, is your objection to the idea of a confirmatory vote? You know, a vote where all the options are clearly defined rather a binary choice between a known and a complete unknown. What are you so scared of?


Tell you what.

Lets have a second vote and if remain wins we can have further leave/remain votes every 4 years. That is democracy.

What would you be scared of?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:47 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
What would you be scared of?

Undefined, nebulous questions on the ballot....

Not scared if it is specific and clear and complete.

"Leave/Not Leave" is not specific.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Klaus
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:21 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Lets have a second vote and if remain wins we can have further leave/remain votes every 4 years. That is democracy.

2016 vote: Only one of the two alternatives was clearly defined (the status quo), the other was almost completely undefined apart from lies, delusions and claims which have all fallen apart by now and large parts of the electorate being of the mistaken belief that this was actually about sticking it to the Westminster crowd and that the european aspect really didn't matter that much.

2019 vote: All three potential alternatives (no deal, the WA, remain) are well defined and the electorate is informed to a much greater extent on what this is actually about and what the actual stakes are.

If you manage to show a comparable growth of awareness and information between 2019 and a potential future date, you may indeed have grounds for another run.

So, can you do that?
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2894
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:31 pm

The current Brexit date at the end of October is very very tight for a referendum as 6 months are said to be needed to pass legislation and set up the campaign organisation, especially with parliament taking a few weeks off now (you just can't make this up can you? Taking a break right at the moment your country got a new EU exit date for the THIRD time amid a national crisis!), but I'm sure that the EU would be willing to accommodate a further extension for a democratic excercise like a public vote...
After all, what's another extension, we've lost count of their number anyway.
ROTFL

Brexit hasnt happened at the end of March,
It won't happen tomorrow,
Neither will it happen before the EU elections in May
And it's very likely it may not happen by Halloween either.
In fact, its even possibly not going to come this year,
Or in fact EVER, at all.
 
A101
Posts: 630
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:26 pm

Klaus wrote:
2016 vote: Only one of the two alternatives was clearly defined (the status quo), the other was almost completely undefined


Actually the two alternatives were well defined in the referenda, REMAIN or LEAVE.

Actually I'm still waiting on your definition on what the words REMAIN & LEAVE mean :rotfl:



Klaus wrote:

2019 vote: All three potential alternatives (no deal, the WA, remain) are well defined and the electorate is informed to a much greater extent on what this is actually about and what the actual stakes are.



I agree that we should have a second referenda as parliament cannot decide on how to leave as the electorate has already spoken on the matter of remain or leave the EU

scbriml wrote:

Pathetic is thinking more voting is a bad thing. :spin:


Pathetic thinking is continuing to vote until the electorate reaches the conclusion the government wants as it does with the pro-remain Parliament, democracy at its very best :hissyfit:


scbriml wrote:
So what, exactly, is your objection to the idea of a confirmatory vote? You know, a vote where all the options are clearly defined rather a binary choice between a known and a complete unknown. What are you so scared of?


None, confirmatory vote should only be on the basis of decide TM's deal or no-deal as leavening the EU has already been put the electorate.

What people are forgetting here is that the WA was only about the divorce on dealing with how the UK breaks away in an orderly fashion from the EU, the Future Trade Agreement was were the nuts and bolts on how trade will continue on in the future. The only reason we are at this point is because the EU will not move from a position that leaves the UK in remaining in the EU for its own economic reasons under the pretence of the GFA.

There are solutions to the GFA either with an FTA or under the WTO its the remain camp who have such a narrow view that the only right way is there way and that is staying in the EU
Last edited by A101 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:31 pm

Tugger wrote:

"Leave/Not Leave" is not specific.



Only in the eyes of the remain camp
 
A101
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:44 pm

scbriml wrote:

Yes, for some "Democracy" is only voting once. :lol:



You don't vote multiple time at a GE until you get the government you want do you :spit:

Is that what you are advocating as well?

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