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Tugger
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:50 pm

A101 wrote:
Tugger wrote:

"Leave/Not Leave" is not specific.



Only in the eyes of the remain camp

No, actually, in the eyes of everyone.

I am sure you will happily explain exactly how you uniquely find "leave/not leave" to be specific.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:52 pm

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Yes, for some "Democracy" is only voting once. :lol:



You don't vote multiple time at a GE until you get the government you want do you :spit:

Is that what you are advocating as well?

Actually, yes, that is exactly the way democracy works, and even thereafter you keep voting every few years...!

Weird that you need this explained.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:01 pm

Klaus wrote:
Actually, yes, that is exactly the way democracy works, and even thereafter you keep voting every few years...!

Weird that you need this explained.


So how many times did we vote at the 2015 GE, because we didn't like the result?

We have GE because of legislated laws, with the latest amendments to it called The Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, for which has been amended 8 times since 1802
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/ele ... g/general/


Wow so you are suggesting that our prior enacted legislated laws have to be voted on every time a general election is called, and part of that GE we should be voting on whether to remain or leave the EU at every GE, crikey I bet the EU would be pleased on that :rotfl:
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:12 pm

A101 wrote:
What people are forgetting here is that the WA was only about the divorce on dealing with how the UK breaks away in an orderly fashion from the EU, the Future Trade Agreement was were the nuts and bolts on how trade will continue on in the future.


On this forum people aren't "forgetting" this at least, but YOU just seem to start understanding the consequences.
WA is the divorce bill, the right of our citizens in UK and guarantee the GFA will be respected.
Whatever you say or think, the simple fact not any brexiters came up with a workable solution for the 3rd part different than the one in WA says it all.
And be sure if you can't find the guts to back off, once WA is signed the journey will just start for a long and paintfull real negociation period.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:38 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

On this forum people aren't "forgetting" this at least,


So the vocal minority wanting a 2nd referendum on remaining in the EU is an understanding on divorce talks :rotfl:


Grizzly410 wrote:
WA is the divorce bill, the right of our citizens in UK and guarantee the GFA will be respected.


its the government position to respect the GFA, doesn't mean we have to stay in the EU to do it


Grizzly410 wrote:
Whatever you say or think, the simple fact not any brexiters came up with a workable solution for the 3rd part different than the one in WA says it all.

its the EU instance on NI remaining part of the EU with no mechanism that allows the UK to voluntarily leave the EU that is creating the deadlock between an acceptable WA between EU, UKGOV & Parliament which has to legislate it. As you damm bloody well know if the EU removes tying the UK to the EU indefinably the WA would sail thru Parliment


Grizzly410 wrote:
And be sure if you can't find the guts to back off, once WA is signed the journey will just start for a long and paintfull real negociation period.



I'll back off in regards to the WA when its not a bad deal for the UK and a no deal exist does not mean disrespecting the GFA as their are mechanism within the WTO to do just that for which I have explained

WTO Article XXI Security Exception's, where as It prevents any member from taking action against another state in order to maintain international peace and security.


https://getbritainout.org/whats-wrong-w ... mays-deal/
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:18 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
[Lets have a second vote and if remain wins we can have further leave/remain votes every 4 years. That is democracy.


Sure, as long as everyone knows what they're actually voting for, unlike 2016. :rotfl:

So, if the Government delivers the softest of soft Brexits, would you be happy with that?

Why can't you answer the question - what's wrong with a confirmatory vote where all the options are clear on the ballot paper?

Klaus wrote:
2019 vote: All three potential alternatives (no deal, the WA, remain) are well defined and the electorate is informed to a much greater extent on what this is actually about and what the actual stakes are.

If you manage to show a comparable growth of awareness and information between 2019 and a potential future date, you may indeed have grounds for another run.

So, can you do that?


Of course they can't. If people actually understand what they're voting for the leavers might not get the result of their dreams.

A101 wrote:
Pathetic thinking is continuing to vote until the electorate reaches the conclusion the government wants as it does with the pro-remain Parliament, democracy at its very best


Parliament is sovereign. They've had more than one vote and many MPs have changed their minds. Why are you so scared of a confirmatory vote that include remain as an option? Why? If leaving the EU is so obviously beneficial, what could possibly go wrong with a confirmatory vote? You're not scared, you're terrified. :scratchchin:

A101 wrote:
Actually the two alternatives were well defined in the referenda, REMAIN or LEAVE.


No they weren't. Every person who voted leave in 2016 had their own personal interpretation of what leave meant. Would you be happy with a Norway+ Brexit?

A101 wrote:
You don't vote multiple time at a GE until you get the government you want do you


No, I vote once, safe in the knowledge that if I don't get the Government I want, I get another chance in a few years' time. But, the huge difference is, I know exactly what the options are. Imagine in the next GE if the ballot options were "Continue with the existing Tory Government" and "An alternative Government". :spin:

A101 wrote:
Is that what you are advocating as well?


You know I'm not, but like most leavers, you're terrified that a confirmatory vote would reveal just how much people had come to their senses.

Klaus wrote:
Actually, yes, that is exactly the way democracy works, and even thereafter you keep voting every few years...!

Weird that you need this explained.


Yep, after realising that you made a terrible mistake voting for party X, you get another vote and can vote for party Y. Crazy, eh?

A101 wrote:
So how many times did we vote at the 2015 GE, because we didn't like the result?


It is odd that you don't understand how it works. You vote once per election, safe in the knowledge you get another vote in a few years. Why are you struggling to grasp that?

A101 wrote:
So the vocal minority wanting a 2nd referendum on remaining in the EU is an understanding on divorce talks


Clearly, you don't understand that it's not a minority. Denial is not a river in Africa.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:03 am

scbriml wrote:

Sure, as long as everyone knows what they're actually voting for, unlike 2016. :rotfl:


Why is it so hard to comprehend, the Question was Remain or Leave.

Why is it that the remain camp cant tell me the definition's for Remain or Leave
The remain camp is all about deflection because they do not like the result.


scbriml wrote:
So, if the Government delivers the softest of soft Brexits, would you be happy with that?


Yes if the WA protects our interests, not just the EU's

scbriml wrote:
Why can't you answer the question - what's wrong with a confirmatory vote where all the options are clear on the ballot paper?


At the moment the options are clear to honour the result of a referenda legislated by law by a sovereign Parliament. as Parliament cannot get a majority on the WA the options that should be put to the electorate is either TM's deal or no-deal



scbriml wrote:

Of course they can't. If people actually understand what they're voting for the leavers might not get the result of their dreams.


So are you saying the electorate are illiterate and cannot understand what Remain or Leave means?

scbriml wrote:

Parliament is sovereign.


Hence the reason they did not rubber stamp a bad deal by the goverment


scbriml wrote:
They've had more than one vote and many MPs have changed their minds.


Under the inducement that TM will resign and political wheeling and dealing.

scbriml wrote:
Why are you so scared of a confirmatory vote that include remain as an option? Why? If leaving the EU is so obviously beneficial, what could possibly go wrong with a confirmatory vote? You're not scared, you're terrified. :scratchchin:


We have already had the Remain/Leave referenda. doing so again is just a push from the vocal minority, Brexhaustion is creeping into the electorate due to the inability of Parliament the extension period should only have been used for either a TM's deal or no deal exist


scbriml wrote:
No they weren't. Every person who voted leave in 2016 had their own personal interpretation of what leave meant.


Here we go the definition of Leave, can you finally answer the question

scbriml wrote:
Would you be happy with a Norway+ Brexit?


That is not the role of the WA, that is the next step of negation's, where government puts a range of models up and can give the electorate a say on the Future Trade Agreement


scbriml wrote:
No, I vote once, safe in the knowledge that if I don't get the Government I want, I get another chance in a few years' time. But, the huge difference is, I know exactly what the options are. Imagine in the next GE if the ballot options were "Continue with the existing Tory Government" and "An alternative Government". :spin:


People cant ask for an alternative EU, if they do not like the regulations being imposed on the UK.
Also the UK electorate can only vote for 73 seats out of a total of 751


scbriml wrote:

You know I'm not, but like most leavers, you're terrified that a confirmatory vote would reveal just how much people had come to their senses.


Do you agree to having a confirmatory vote after every GE :hissyfit:

scbriml wrote:

It is odd that you don't understand how it works. You vote once per election, safe in the knowledge you get another vote in a few years. Why are you struggling to grasp that?


What no confirmatory vote that is the government we actually want for 5 years :rotfl:


scbriml wrote:

Clearly, you don't understand that it's not a minority. Denial is not a river in Africa.


Clearly the Electoral Commission disagrees

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... nformation
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:29 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Sure, as long as everyone knows what they're actually voting for, unlike 2016. :rotfl:


Why is it so hard to comprehend, the Question was Remain or Leave.

Why is it that the remain camp cant tell me the definition's for Remain or Leave
The remain camp is all about deflection because they do not like the result.

And as we have seen since then, the leavers don't like any of that multitude of possible meanings of that result!

The question was effectively:
• Stay in the European Union as before. (Very clearly defined.)
• Leave the European Union – Somehow. (Completely undefined, and most of the presentations of the campaign have turned out to have been complete delusions.)

Apart from already wrecking and embarrassing the UK the leavers have shown themselves to be completely and utterly incompetent to develop any actually feasible perspective – let alone an attractive one!

They've contributed nothing but dysfunction, disunity and despair.

And it is getting ever clearer that they are mortally scared of having to stand up to be judged on the actual merits of their grand designs – anything, just no democratic decision on the actual Brexit which is by now very clearly visible!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:43 am

Klaus wrote:


The question was effectively:
• Stay in the European Union as before. (Very clearly defined.)
• Leave the European Union – Somehow. (Completely undefined, and most of the presentations of the campaign have turned out to have been complete delusions.)



Nope, The Political Parties, Referendums and Elections Act 2000 (PPERA) requires the electoral commission to consider the wording of a referendum question and as to its intelligibility, and also the EC guidelines also say that a question should be clear and simple, easy to understand; to the point; and not be ambiguous. It should also be neutral, which means it should not encourage voters to consider one response more favourably than another or mislead voters.

Still looking for that definition of Remain &Leave from the remain camp

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union


 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:57 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:


The question was effectively:
• Stay in the European Union as before. (Very clearly defined.)
• Leave the European Union – Somehow. (Completely undefined, and most of the presentations of the campaign have turned out to have been complete delusions.)



Nope, The Political Parties, Referendums and Elections Act 2000 (PPERA) requires the electoral commission to consider the wording of a referendum question and as to its intelligibility, and also the EC guidelines also say that a question should be clear and simple, easy to understand; to the point; and not be ambiguous. It should also be neutral, which means it should not encourage voters to consider one response more favourably than another or mislead voters.

Still looking for that definition of Remain &Leave from the remain camp

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union




Leave was never defined and you haven't shown otherwise.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:07 am

Leave means leave - not hard to define. No longer a member of the EU.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:24 am

Dutchy wrote:

Leave was never defined and you haven't shown otherwise.



Yes I have, the leave campaign was predicated on exactly what the word means...…………. leave the European Union.

I know your not thick like two planks of wood, there was no ambiguity in the question that was being asked in the referenda nor in the leave campaign.

Leave means Leave, It is a simple and unmistakable message...………….I cant see any ambiguity in that and clearly defined
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:30 am

A101 wrote:
I cant see any ambiguity in that and clearly defined


Because you don't want to
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:36 am

seahawk wrote:
Leave means leave - not hard to define. No longer a member of the EU.


If you say "I am off", no other explination is needed for your wife?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:12 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
So the vocal minority wanting a 2nd referendum on remaining in the EU is an understanding on divorce talks


Clearly, you don't understand that it's not a minority. Denial is not a river in Africa.


And this is what bugs me most...

Why does the government continue to deliberately ignore the fact that the majority now want to remain?

Why does the opposition seem to ignore this fact as well?

Why does most of the media not highlight the shift towards remain at all? Why do they never take the politicians to task on this in interviews?

It's all so taboo that it almost smacks of corruption. The mantra is "we must only discuss this in terms of how we achieve some kind of Brexit - we must NEVER acknowledge that most people don't want any of this any more!"
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:52 am

The first time leave was defined is with May Lancaster House speech ( that parroting the ERG). And the EU answer was that famous EU slide underscoring what would be the consequences of theses red lines. Since that it was just comedia del'arte in the conservative party
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:58 am

I am curious how much Russia will try to influence the EU elections in the UK now that the UK could possibly remain.

'Secret services: Moscow is trying to influence EU election campaign' https://www.ccdiscovery.com/secret-serv ... n-campaign

Makes me also wonder who the Russian representatives in this forum are ;)
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:02 pm

Please explain for me why it is undemocratic for uk to take part of a EU parliament election?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:27 pm

Olddog wrote:
The first time leave was defined is with May Lancaster House speech ( that parroting the ERG). And the EU answer was that famous EU slide underscoring what would be the consequences of theses red lines. Since that it was just comedia del'arte in the conservative party


That's interesting, so the leave campaign nor the government didn't say anything about leaving the EU until 17 January 2017, And David Cameron officially resigned on 13 July 2016 even tho they called a referenda on that very subject mmmm……………..
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Leave means leave - not hard to define. No longer a member of the EU.


If you say "I am off", no other explination is needed for your wife?


Well that would depend on the context of what you are doing at the time, wouldn't it


If you are in your work clothes it would be self explanatory , if you were in bed with a bucket under your head that would be self explanatory, if you let one go in the bed and reeks she might think at rat died up your arse.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:56 pm

A3801000 wrote:

Makes me also wonder who the Russian representatives in this forum are ;)


That would be anyone that doesn't agree with your view :alert: :alert:
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:11 pm

A101 wrote:
That's interesting, so the leave campaign nor the government didn't say anything about leaving the EU until 17 January 2017, And David Cameron officially resigned on 13 July 2016 even tho they called a referenda on that very subject mmmm……………..


They said a lot odd things that were lies and or just wrong. As I posted in one of the other parts if you want to read it, the leave camp did not want to put up a plan because it would have been easily debunked. you can check the Barnier press conference when he answered to TM LH speech: he said clearly: the UK voted to leave, TM has chosen to implement the hard exit.

I guess she was thinking that the EU could crumble in front of the proud UK :lol:
Last edited by Olddog on Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VS11
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:39 pm

Brexit is done. It is in its last but one stage before A50 withdrawal is revoked. The convulsions will continue for a little longer but it is really a matter of time before the revocation. It may take some time for Brexiteers to move from denial to acceptance but the writing has been on the wall ever since Mrs. May won the Conservative Party leadership vote in December. The Tories had their chance to pick someone to go ahead with the suicidal no-deal hard Brexit and they balked. Brexit will be now history.

The price for Labour to support Mrs. May's deal will not only be a customs union but also a second referendum. It is hard to imagine people choosing Leave again when they are staring a jobless life - just today there is a FT article about the people of Sunderland changing their tune.

"Weary frustration and cynicism take hold in UK’s Brexit heartland"
https://www.ft.com/content/9dd2aef6-5d1 ... edca0a081a
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:39 pm

So does leaving the EU also mean leaving the Single Market and Customs Union?.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:44 pm

According to TM red lines, yes.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:38 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Leave was never defined and you haven't shown otherwise.



Yes I have, the leave campaign was predicated on exactly what the word means...…………. leave the European Union.

I know your not thick like two planks of wood, there was no ambiguity in the question that was being asked in the referenda nor in the leave campaign.

Leave means Leave, It is a simple and unmistakable message...………….I cant see any ambiguity in that and clearly defined

Make it happen!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:35 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
So the vocal minority wanting a 2nd referendum on remaining in the EU is an understanding on divorce talks


Clearly, you don't understand that it's not a minority. Denial is not a river in Africa.


And this is what bugs me most...

Why does the government continue to deliberately ignore the fact that the majority now want to remain?

Why does the opposition seem to ignore this fact as well?

Why does most of the media not highlight the shift towards remain at all? Why do they never take the politicians to task on this in interviews?

It's all so taboo that it almost smacks of corruption. The mantra is "we must only discuss this in terms of how we achieve some kind of Brexit - we must NEVER acknowledge that most people don't want any of this any more!"


There is no FACT that most people wish to remain. Polls might suggest it, but don’t make nonsense claims that something is fact, when there is no truth to it.

It is amazing that so many people outside of the UK seem to have more knowledge of public thought than people who actually live in the UK.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
[Lets have a second vote and if remain wins we can have further leave/remain votes every 4 years. That is democracy.


Sure, as long as everyone knows what they're actually voting for, unlike 2016. :rotfl:

So, if the Government delivers the softest of soft Brexits, would you be happy with that?

Why can't you answer the question - what's wrong with a confirmatory vote where all the options are clear on the ballot paper?

Klaus wrote:
2019 vote: All three potential alternatives (no deal, the WA, remain) are well defined and the electorate is informed to a much greater extent on what this is actually about and what the actual stakes are.

If you manage to show a comparable growth of awareness and information between 2019 and a potential future date, you may indeed have grounds for another run.

So, can you do that?


Of course they can't. If people actually understand what they're voting for the leavers might not get the result of their dreams.

A101 wrote:
Pathetic thinking is continuing to vote until the electorate reaches the conclusion the government wants as it does with the pro-remain Parliament, democracy at its very best


Parliament is sovereign. They've had more than one vote and many MPs have changed their minds. Why are you so scared of a confirmatory vote that include remain as an option? Why? If leaving the EU is so obviously beneficial, what could possibly go wrong with a confirmatory vote? You're not scared, you're terrified. :scratchchin:

A101 wrote:
Actually the two alternatives were well defined in the referenda, REMAIN or LEAVE.


No they weren't. Every person who voted leave in 2016 had their own personal interpretation of what leave meant. Would you be happy with a Norway+ Brexit?

A101 wrote:
You don't vote multiple time at a GE until you get the government you want do you


No, I vote once, safe in the knowledge that if I don't get the Government I want, I get another chance in a few years' time. But, the huge difference is, I know exactly what the options are. Imagine in the next GE if the ballot options were "Continue with the existing Tory Government" and "An alternative Government". :spin:

A101 wrote:
Is that what you are advocating as well?


You know I'm not, but like most leavers, you're terrified that a confirmatory vote would reveal just how much people had come to their senses.

Klaus wrote:
Actually, yes, that is exactly the way democracy works, and even thereafter you keep voting every few years...!

Weird that you need this explained.


Yep, after realising that you made a terrible mistake voting for party X, you get another vote and can vote for party Y. Crazy, eh?

A101 wrote:
So how many times did we vote at the 2015 GE, because we didn't like the result?


It is odd that you don't understand how it works. You vote once per election, safe in the knowledge you get another vote in a few years. Why are you struggling to grasp that?

A101 wrote:
So the vocal minority wanting a 2nd referendum on remaining in the EU is an understanding on divorce talks


Clearly, you don't understand that it's not a minority. Denial is not a river in Africa.


Why am I against a second vote?

People new at the last one that it was a once in a lifetime vote.

A second vote is not necessary. Where would it end? A third vote and fourth vote and so on?

Hey if you are so obsessed with being in the EU, why don’t you and other remoaners vote Lib Dem? They will want us to rejoin after we have left.

I don’t want a soft Brexit. I want an independent UK, not paying into a corrupt EU. I want an end to free movement with people invited here on merit. I want the UK to make their own laws and make the own trade deals.

This tragic obsession some people have with the EU is troubling. I guess some people just cant cope with the loss of what they are use to.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:52 pm

wingman wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Perfect. My two planned visits to England will apparently proceed without Brexit snafus.


It’s unfortunate. I’ll be in Edinburgh in October for a lifetime bucket list trip. I’d hoped to buy Old Town on the Visa Card but sadly the pound may still have value. So disappointing to stay the Radisson when the Castle could’ve been mine. Silly Remainers!


I'm gonna cancel my second trip.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:12 pm

Olddog wrote:

They said a lot odd things that were lies and or just wrong. As I posted in one of the other parts if you want to read it,


Both sides are guilty of using misleading information,

Cross-party committee attacks both sides MPs' report condemns 'misleading' EU referendum campaigns ...…………..Let him who is without sin cast the first stone

Olddog wrote:
the leave camp did not want to put up a plan because it would have been easily debunked.


As I explained in the older threads that it was not the leave campaign to put a exist plan in place as they had no authority to do so, all the remain and leave campaigns had to do was show he pro's and con of their respective positions


Olddog wrote:
you can check the Barnier press conference when he answered to TM LH speech: he said clearly: the UK voted to leave, .


Thank you for clarifying the leave position
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:20 pm

Strange to hear a Brexiteer quoting Barnier.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:43 pm

A101 wrote:
Thank you for clarifying the leave position

And I see you are avoiding (or scared to) actually state what "leave" means.

And don't worry I (and I suspect most here you are discussing with) know you won't, you will continue to only spout platitudes and generalities. Wokr to keep it vague and nebulous so you can keep "arguing" the position you refuse to actually take.

Happily there will be a second vote to actually decide if the people agree with the known "leave" terms and position.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
A101
Posts: 633
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:57 pm

VS11 wrote:
Brexit is done. It is in its last but one stage before A50 withdrawal is revoked.

Yep I agree I have said it a few times with mays attitude of my way or the highway, its not my preferred position but my only avenue against it is at the next GE

VS11 wrote:
The convulsions will continue for a little longer but it is really a matter of time before the revocation. It may take some time for Brexiteers to move from denial to acceptance but the writing has been on the wall ever since Mrs. May won the Conservative Party leadership vote in December. The Tories had their chance to pick someone to go ahead with the suicidal no-deal hard Brexit and they balked. Brexit will be now history.


I would not rule it out entirely to happen again in the future, it will all depend on the make up of the future parliament at the next GE.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... truly-pro/
"Betrayed by establishment parties, Brexit voters long for a truly pro-Leave alternative"




VS11 wrote:
The price for Labour to support Mrs. May's deal will not only be a customs union but also a second referendum. It is hard to imagine people choosing Leave again when they are staring a jobless life - just today there is a FT article about the people of Sunderland changing their tune.


That's the result of talks not being able to progress to the FTA and is squarely at the feet of TM with her bad deal Withdrawal Agreement. She even said it herself no deal is better than a bad deal, she cant even follow her own advice. Progress has stalled which was what many remainers needed to overturn the results




VS11 wrote:
"Weary frustration and cynicism take hold in UK’s Brexit heartland"
https://www.ft.com/content/9dd2aef6-5d1 ... edca0a081a


Biased and selective in its reporting in the use of voters that actually voted to remain

"Leave-voting Sunderland is ‘sick’ of delays with many preferring any form of exit to current limbo"

"Instead, sentiment in the bellwether city is a mixture of weary frustration and cynicism. While there is little enthusiasm for the compromise exit deal that prime minister Theresa May has struck with Brussels, some Sunderland inhabitants seemed to prefer any form of Brexit to the current limbo."
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:09 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Strange to hear a Brexiteer quoting Barnier.


I take it that you are referring to me?

I suggest you read it again to whom I was quoting :laughing:
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:21 pm

Tugger wrote:
And I see you are avoiding (or scared to) actually state what "leave" means.


:rotfl: :rotfl: just go thru the last few pages



Tugger wrote:
And don't worry I (and I suspect most here you are discussing with) know you won't, you will continue to only spout platitudes and generalities. Wokr to keep it vague and nebulous so you can keep "arguing" the position you refuse to actually take.


Well I haven't seen any remain campaigner vaguely say how they were going to reform the EU as part of the manifesto


Tugger wrote:
Happily there will be a second vote to actually decide if the people agree with the known "leave" terms and position.


I'm happy for a referendum on the future trade agreement after the withdrawal agreement has been put in place, but as Parliament is not happy with the bad deal negotiated by TM if voting on TM deal or no deal is the referendum then so be it.
 
VS11
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:07 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Why am I against a second vote?

People new at the last one that it was a once in a lifetime vote.

A second vote is not necessary. Where would it end? A third vote and fourth vote and so on?

Hey if you are so obsessed with being in the EU, why don’t you and other remoaners vote Lib Dem? They will want us to rejoin after we have left.

I don’t want a soft Brexit. I want an independent UK, not paying into a corrupt EU. I want an end to free movement with people invited here on merit. I want the UK to make their own laws and make the own trade deals.

This tragic obsession some people have with the EU is troubling. I guess some people just cant cope with the loss of what they are use to.


In a situation where the GFA and the history behind it didn’t exist, leaving the EU would have been straightforward. But that’s not the case. As often in life, every choice involves a trade-off. So the question is did people know that leaving the EU would mean going to the pre-GFA situation? Because 3 years after the referendum it has transpired that the referendum question really is do you want to go back to the Troubles or not? In the end of the day, the GFA is only possible with a customs union of some sort. That’s the real drama of Brexit.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17041
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:18 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
People new at the last one that it was a once in a lifetime vote.

A second vote is not necessary. Where would it end? A third vote and fourth vote and so on?


There you go, believing politicians. :wink2:

Of course all bets are off with a change of Government (which there has been since Cameron was PM)...

No, only one confirmatory vote required for people to decide what they want - remain, no-deal Brexit or soft Brexit. Each choice clearly defined with the consequences of each choice fully understood.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Hey if you are so obsessed with being in the EU, why don’t you and other remoaners vote Lib Dem? They will want us to rejoin after we have left.


It's certainly an option considering that Governments are not bound by decisions of previous ones.

noviorbis77 wrote:
I don’t want a soft Brexit.


It's looking increasingly like you're going to get the Salvador Dali of soft Brexits.

If only there was some way you could express your preference for what you wanted knowing exactly what the options were. :scratchchin:

noviorbis77 wrote:
This tragic obsession some people have with the EU is troubling. I guess some people just cant cope with the loss of what they are use to.


Alternatively, some of us are old enough to remember what it was like before we joined the EU (or EEC as it was then). Years of economic decline since the end of WWII only halted after we joined.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:59 am

VS11 wrote:
But that’s not the case. As often in life, every choice involves a trade-off. So the question is did people know that leaving the EU would mean going to the pre-GFA situation?
Because 3 years after the referendum it has transpired that the referendum question really is do you want to go back to the Troubles or not? In the end of the day,


These two questions are basically asking the same thing, you seem to forget your history. The Troubles began before well and truly before both nations joined the EEC, and previously had agreements such as, The Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement was signed on 25 April 1938 & Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965

So tell me if the Troubles was connected to a customs controlled border, then why did the problems not stop when both joined the EEC in 73?
( ill give you a hint, it wasn't trade but things that go bang)


VS11 wrote:
the GFA is only possible with a customs union of some sort. That’s the real drama of Brexit.


That is factually wrong, the GFA is not a trade agreement

You fail to connect the dots between why the security hard border was put into place in the beginning and I can tell you its wasn't because of trade :banghead:
 
VS11
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:13 am

A101 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
But that’s not the case. As often in life, every choice involves a trade-off. So the question is did people know that leaving the EU would mean going to the pre-GFA situation?
Because 3 years after the referendum it has transpired that the referendum question really is do you want to go back to the Troubles or not? In the end of the day,


These two questions are basically asking the same thing, you seem to forget your history. The Troubles began before well and truly before both nations joined the EEC, and previously had agreements such as, The Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement was signed on 25 April 1938 & Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965

So tell me if the Troubles was connected to a customs controlled border, then why did the problems not stop when both joined the EEC in 73?
( ill give you a hint, it wasn't trade but things that go bang)


VS11 wrote:
the GFA is only possible with a customs union of some sort. That’s the real drama of Brexit.


That is factually wrong, the GFA is not a trade agreement

You fail to connect the dots between why the security hard border was put into place in the beginning and I can tell you its wasn't because of trade :banghead:


I think you are failing your deductive abilities. I never made the claim that the GFA was about trade. But without a customs union that will remove the need for checks at the border, you end up with the necessity of hard border inspections.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:39 am

scbriml wrote:
No, only one confirmatory vote required for people to decide what they want - no-deal Brexit or soft Brexit. Each choice clearly defined with the consequences of each choice fully understood.


Fixed it for you...……….as we have already voted on leaving the EU

scbriml wrote:

It's certainly an option considering that Governments are not bound by decisions of previous ones.


Unfortunately that wont be an option if TM WA gets passed, as the EU will then have the final say

scbriml wrote:

It's looking increasingly like you're going to get the Salvador Dali of soft Brexits.

If only there was some way you could express your preference for what you wanted knowing exactly what the options were. :scratchchin:


Return to top of post


scbriml wrote:

Alternatively, some of us are old enough to remember what it was like before we joined the EU (or EEC as it was then).


So you are saying ever since we joined our economy the EEC the UK economy has gone from strength to strength, well I must not have lived thru the recession's of the 70's 80' 90's and the 2000's And at the same time since joining the EEC our manufacturing sector has declined in every respect in the steel/aluminium, cement, food and drink and textiles industries, since joining the single market it has not helped the UK to grow and has not saved many of our industries from decline



scbriml wrote:
Years of economic decline since the end of WWII only halted after we joined.


Yet at the end of WWII the country was very nearly bankrupt and we owed a lot of money to not only the US but across the dominions, The UK faced the prospect of unbridgeable balance-of-payments deficits for years to come, if it were not for the US Lend-Lease programme and post WWII such aid programs as the Marshall Plan
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:53 am

VS11 wrote:
I think you are failing your deductive abilities. I never made the claim that the GFA was about trade. But without a customs union that will remove the need for checks at the border, you end up with the necessity of hard border inspections.


That's not necessarily the case at all, majority of goods will enter or leave in ports were checks will already have taken place, internal trade by road transport between ROI/NI can be done electronically. its up to the respective sides as to whether they put in a Customs/Quarantine checking station.

The UK will have its own free will on the matter, but it remains to be seen if ROI can resit any pressure from the other members on Customs check, we have all ready seen Merkel/Macron put the hard word on Varadker on the subject, we could very well find its is only the ROI who actually puts in checking stations
 
VS11
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:00 am

A101 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
I think you are failing your deductive abilities. I never made the claim that the GFA was about trade. But without a customs union that will remove the need for checks at the border, you end up with the necessity of hard border inspections.


That's not necessarily the case at all, majority of goods will enter or leave in ports were checks will already have taken place, internal trade by road transport between ROI/NI can be done electronically. its up to the respective sides as to whether they put in a Customs/Quarantine checking station.

The UK will have its own free will on the matter, but it remains to be seen if ROI can resit any pressure from the other members on Customs check, we have all ready seen Merkel/Macron put the hard word on Varadker on the subject, we could very well find its is only the ROI who actually puts in checking stations


Yes, the EU said that Ireland would need to have border checks. That’s why the Irish border backstop is the show-stopper.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:49 am

VS11 wrote:

Yes, the EU said that Ireland would need to have border checks. That’s why the Irish border backstop is the show-stopper.


On the ROI side of the border, the UK government is committed to no such checks

The actual show stopper from Parliament is the backstop leaves the UK in the EU indefinitely, that's the show stopper.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:16 am

VS11 wrote:

I never made the claim that the GFA was about trade.



Silly me forgetting to address this that you claim from above and what you actually said below

you stated,
VS11 wrote:
the GFA is only possible with a customs union of some sort. That’s the real drama of Brexit.


Now what is a CUSTOMS UNION mmmmm lets see,

(a) A customs union shall be understood to mean the substitution of a single customs territory for two or more customs territories, so that

(i) duties and other restrictive regulations of commerce (except, where necessary, those permitted under Articles XI, XII, XIII, XIV, XV and XX) are eliminated with respect to substantially all the trade between the constituent territories of the union or at least with respect to substantially all the trade in products originating in such territories, and,
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:21 am

A101 you are just a troll. Quoting my post while letting half a sentence out is just trolling.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:02 am

Olddog wrote:
A101 you are just a troll. Quoting my post while letting half a sentence out is just trolling.


That’s interesting, if you go back and see other posters which have quotes from myself that happens to me quite a bit, are you going to call out others for that behaviour as well or to just the posters who you don’t agree with?


:hissyfit: :rotfl:
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:16 am

Olddog wrote:
A101 you are just a troll. Quoting my post while letting half a sentence out is just trolling.


might help to understand:

- https://euvsdisinfo.eu/european-elections-2019/

- http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... S_ATA(2018)620230_EN.pdf

- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... n-trolling
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:22 am

A3801000 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
A101 you are just a troll. Quoting my post while letting half a sentence out is just trolling.


might help to understand:

- https://euvsdisinfo.eu/european-elections-2019/

- http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... S_ATA(2018)620230_EN.pdf

- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... n-trolling



Very good comrade :wave:
 
A3801000
Posts: 556
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:29 am

That's what anrec80 and Scorpius used to say. Wonder where they have gone and who replaced them :wink2:
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:47 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
There is no FACT that most people wish to remain. Polls might suggest it, but don’t make nonsense claims that something is fact, when there is no truth to it.


I am an engineer. Engineers' and scientists' work method is entirely derived from evidence-based consensus. If all the polls - and most of those seemingly from credible sources and using significant sample sizes - show a statistically significant and consistent, repeatable response then THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A FACT! To say otherwise is to deny civilisation... But then hey, I believe in experts, so what do I know.

It is amazing that so many people outside of the UK seem to have more knowledge of public thought than people who actually live in the UK.


I *do* live in the UK, smarty pants. I am one of those who have benefited from the clear advantages that freedom of movement brings all of society - that's why I know what a load of codswallop all the Brexit arguments are and why I sometimes argue against falsehoods propagated in places like these.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
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