A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:04 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Your own link shows the UK preferred process to the negotiations "Until now, British prime minister Theresa May had insisted that both discussions should be held in parallell", until she rolled over on EU insistence that only 2 phases are in place for the negotiations period, negotiations for the withdrawal agreement then moving to the 2nd phase, the future relationship

That was never a choice but simply a necessity. Whining, moaning and throwing childish tantrums about this obviously necessary sequencing wouldn't have made a bit of a difference – it didn't then and it won't now.

Mythologizing this rigid and immovable point may play well to a Farage crowd but like almost all of his propaganda it is exclusively based on his audience not having any clue on how the European Union actually works.

So you are actually admitting that the EU is a bully...….interesting.

The EU pursues its own interests, which are the interests of its member states – such as Ireland, for instance.

It is weird that this obvious fact causes such amazement in you any more, but despite numerous explanations and plenty of direct evidence still remaining in ignorance or at least feigning it is probably your only option to uphold your positions, because actually knowing anything about the EU directly obliterates those strange theories.


NO A50 is designed to give the EU maximum pressure against those leaving by having just 2 years to negotiate the whole process, TM caved as fighting just the process runs down the clock in EU favour, shit they could have talked for 2 years just on defining the process. its at this point the penny should have dropped for TM and walked away then and plan on a no deal exit
 
Bostrom
Posts: 777
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:06 pm

scbriml wrote:
He lied all through the referendum campaign and he's still lying. Boris enjoys the same relationship with facts that the current POTUS does.


As well as during his career as a journalist. Personally I wouldn't trust anything he says.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21222
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:13 pm

A101 wrote:
NO A50 is designed to give the EU maximum pressure against those leaving by having just 2 years to negotiate the whole process, TM caved as fighting just the process runs down the clock in EU favour, shit they could have talked for 2 years just on defining the process. its at this point the penny should have dropped for TM and walked away then and plan on a no deal exit

UK: "When I blow my own brains out you'll regret it when you try getting the stains out of your carpet!"

EU: "Do you see those plastic tarps all over the place...?"
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:54 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
NO A50 is designed to give the EU maximum pressure against those leaving by having just 2 years to negotiate the whole process, TM caved as fighting just the process runs down the clock in EU favour, shit they could have talked for 2 years just on defining the process. its at this point the penny should have dropped for TM and walked away then and plan on a no deal exit

UK: "When I blow my own brains out you'll regret it when you try getting the stains out of your carpet!"

EU: "Do you see those plastic tarps all over the place...?"



Nope there still is a relationship with the EU just not on the terms you pushed for. And I rather suffer during the time of no agreement with the EU then let a bad deal go thru. And our prosperity increase at the expense of the EU with other nations, I’ll just remember the bad faith bargaining that the EU tried to bully us into.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21222
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:00 pm

A101 wrote:
Nope there still is a relationship with the EU just not on the terms you pushed for. And I rather suffer during the time of no agreement with the EU then let a bad deal go thru. And our prosperity increase at the expense of the EU with other nations, I’ll just remember the bad faith bargaining that the EU tried to bully us into.

That's a cute, mustache-twirling movie supervillain rant.

You're just not a supervillain. And this is not a movie.

Other than that, well done! :rotfl:
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:18 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
Nope there still is a relationship with the EU just not on the terms you pushed for. And I rather suffer during the time of no agreement with the EU then let a bad deal go thru. And our prosperity increase at the expense of the EU with other nations, I’ll just remember the bad faith bargaining that the EU tried to bully us into.

That's a cute, mustache-twirling movie supervillain rant.

You're just not a supervillain. And this is not a movie.

Other than that, well done! :rotfl:



No your right no movie, just political reality I hope come the 31st October
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10644
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:11 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
NO A50 is designed to give the EU maximum pressure against those leaving by having just 2 years to negotiate the whole process, TM caved as fighting just the process runs down the clock in EU favour, shit they could have talked for 2 years just on defining the process. its at this point the penny should have dropped for TM and walked away then and plan on a no deal exit

UK: "When I blow my own brains out you'll regret it when you try getting the stains out of your carpet!"

EU: "Do you see those plastic tarps all over the place...?"



Nope there still is a relationship with the EU just not on the terms you pushed for. And I rather suffer during the time of no agreement with the EU then let a bad deal go thru.


Since no Deal is the worst Deal, the UK parliament is pretty positive about that, so whatever the EU offeres is a good deal by definition.

"Bad faith" negotiation is a joke considering that the UK failed to negotiate at all. All the EU insists on is to keep the treaties, all the UK insists on is "break the treaties".

Beat regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Klaus
Posts: 21222
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:08 pm

A101 wrote:
No your right no movie, just political reality I hope come the 31st October

Actual reality and Leaver's fever dreams are not even in the same universe – this would be the first time one came true and the odds are quite unfavourable this time, too.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10644
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:31 pm

Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
No your right no movie, just political reality I hope come the 31st October

Actual reality and Leaver's fever dreams are not even in the same universe – this would be the first time one came true and the odds are quite unfavourable this time, too.


I am looking forward to the day, just for the joy of seeing all the "But... but this is not supposed to happen this way....".

Then again ... they 1984ed the easiest negotiations/trade dreals and so on away quite successful too.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:57 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The British Royal Marines seized an Iranian tanker last week in accordance to #EU Syrian sanctions.
#Iran have now captured 2 #British tankers against international law.
Not one word from the EU denouncing this action only support from our #American cousins.
And yet some deluded EU cheerleaders will never accept that the UK’s closest ally is the USA and not any nation within the EU.


That 'closest ally' manufactured the whole incident carefully in order to lure a distracted UK government into a diplomatic trap, with Conservative politicians, distracted by picking a new prime minister, jockeying for power, and preoccupied with Brexit, naively stumbled into it and now will have a hard time getting out of without egg on their face.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ohn-bolton

Nice illustration of what happens to you on the international scene when you're constantly navel-gazing due to Brexit myopia!
Spain was also informed by the US, yet was smart enough to let the opportunity pass to act on the information...
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:12 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I am looking forward to the day, just for the joy of seeing all the "But... but this is not supposed to happen this way....".

Then again ... they 1984ed the easiest negotiations/trade dreals and so on away quite successful too.


No worries, the man who was supposed to secure that deal with the EU is likely going to be the UK's next foreign secretary, so he'll have another go at international wheeling and dealing: probably missed flying into Brussels on a weekly basis too much! Let's just hope he'll bring some files with him, next time.

What could possibly go wrong with such a dreamteam, right? :pray:
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:04 pm

A101 wrote:
And I rather suffer during the time of no agreement with the EU then let a bad deal go thru. And our prosperity increase at the expense of the EU with other nations, I’ll just remember the bad faith bargaining that the EU tried to bully us into.


Ok, you are back at arguing that Brexit will have all kinds of economic benefits and all kinds of trade deals will be made which are far more beneficial than the UK has within the framework of the EU. Man, haven't you learned anything in the past 3 years? Numerous of people here, experts all over the world, including the former WTO executive, treaties the EU has concluded etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. all point in one directing, the UK will not be better off, it can't be. So either you say all experts are wrong and you are dilutional, or... can't really think of anything right now. Useless to try to educate the person whom doesn't want to listen.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6941
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:12 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
The British Royal Marines seized an Iranian tanker last week in accordance to #EU Syrian sanctions.
#Iran have now captured 2 #British tankers against international law.
Not one word from the EU denouncing this action only support from our #American cousins.
And yet some deluded EU cheerleaders will never accept that the UK’s closest ally is the USA and not any nation within the EU.

UK got trapped by its "closest ally" at a time while not having a functioning government.

Spain was smart enough to avoid the trap, probably because they have a functioning government, or maybe because they are smarter. Or both. If only the UK had talked it over with the EU, then they might have been as smart as Spain.

What a way for Mrs May to leave #10. :weeping:

And what a mess for her successor (presumably BoJo) to take over. Did he really deserve it that bad? Even if he more than anyone else is responsible for the UK lack of leadership during the last three years and counting. Having lately been so busy, he might have been looking forward to an August summer holiday tour in his red bus.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17279
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:59 am

prebennorholm wrote:
UK got trapped by its "closest ally" at a time while not having a functioning government.

Spain was smart enough to avoid the trap, probably because they have a functioning government, or maybe because they are smarter. Or both. If only the UK had talked it over with the EU, then they might have been as smart as Spain.


The Iranian tanker was seized in accordance with EU sanctions against Syria. Are you suggesting those sanctions should be ignored?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:34 am

It seems the imminent arrival of BJ has spooked the horses in wanting to make a deal, how true the reports are remain to be seen.


Senior Tory threatens to quit as secret Brexit negotiations begin with likely PM, Boris Johnson


Reports from Britain have also indicated EU countries are secretly wooing Boris Johnson in a bid to thrash out a new Brexit plan that would avoid a no-deal disaster, ahead of Johnson's likely election as prime minister.

Senior Irish politicians and diplomats have held talks with two of Johnson's cabinet allies in recent days, it said. German and French figures as well as the Dutch and Belgian governments have also established contact with Johnson's team and signalled an intention to do a deal, it added.

In a limited extract released on Saturday evening ahead of publication, the paper reported that Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney has indicated Dublin is prepared to compromise.



https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... 529a9.html
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:42 am

A101 wrote:
It seems the imminent arrival of BJ has spooked the horses in wanting to make a deal, how true the reports are remain to be seen.


Senior Tory threatens to quit as secret Brexit negotiations begin with likely PM, Boris Johnson


Reports from Britain have also indicated EU countries are secretly wooing Boris Johnson in a bid to thrash out a new Brexit plan that would avoid a no-deal disaster, ahead of Johnson's likely election as prime minister.

Senior Irish politicians and diplomats have held talks with two of Johnson's cabinet allies in recent days, it said. German and French figures as well as the Dutch and Belgian governments have also established contact with Johnson's team and signalled an intention to do a deal, it added.

In a limited extract released on Saturday evening ahead of publication, the paper reported that Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney has indicated Dublin is prepared to compromise.



https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... 529a9.html


yup, the EU still looks out for the best interest of the UK.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
It seems the imminent arrival of BJ has spooked the horses in wanting to make a deal, how true the reports are remain to be seen.


Senior Tory threatens to quit as secret Brexit negotiations begin with likely PM, Boris Johnson


Reports from Britain have also indicated EU countries are secretly wooing Boris Johnson in a bid to thrash out a new Brexit plan that would avoid a no-deal disaster, ahead of Johnson's likely election as prime minister.

Senior Irish politicians and diplomats have held talks with two of Johnson's cabinet allies in recent days, it said. German and French figures as well as the Dutch and Belgian governments have also established contact with Johnson's team and signalled an intention to do a deal, it added.

In a limited extract released on Saturday evening ahead of publication, the paper reported that Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney has indicated Dublin is prepared to compromise.



https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... 529a9.html


yup, the EU still looks out for the best interest of the UK.



More like there own otherwise they wouldn’t be doing would they
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:55 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
It seems the imminent arrival of BJ has spooked the horses in wanting to make a deal, how true the reports are remain to be seen.


Senior Tory threatens to quit as secret Brexit negotiations begin with likely PM, Boris Johnson




https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... 529a9.html


yup, the EU still looks out for the best interest of the UK.



More like there own otherwise they wouldn’t be doing would they


Yes they would, that is what you failed to understand.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

yup, the EU still looks out for the best interest of the UK.



More like there own otherwise they wouldn’t be doing would they


Yes they would, that is what you failed to understand.



Oh I understand all right as I said a number of times thru the forum that they will not want to disrupt trade. Maybe you didn’t notice the reports are from various indicated EU governments and not specifically from Brussels, that’s a pretty good indication that they want to protect trade into the UK
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:27 am

A101 wrote:
Oh I understand all right as I said a number of times thru the forum that they will not want to disrupt trade. Maybe you didn’t notice the reports are from various indicated EU governments and not specifically from Brussels, that’s a pretty good indication that they want to protect trade into the UK


See, you failed to understand the deeper drive here. The EU does not like unstable countries at our border and the EU does like the European continent to prosper. So, everything the EU can do to achieve this, without leaving the fundamental values and pillars on which the EU is founded, the EU would like to do. What it can't do and will not do is give the UK a more beneficial deal than the EU members have, but that should go without saying but with the Brexitremist it is good to repeat it sometimes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:34 am

BTW a deal can be struck, as it could always have been if the UK politics take into account what the EU can and cannot do. Ask for too much - cherry-picking - and the EU will say no.

Remember this one:
Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Oh I understand all right as I said a number of times thru the forum that they will not want to disrupt trade. Maybe you didn’t notice the reports are from various indicated EU governments and not specifically from Brussels, that’s a pretty good indication that they want to protect trade into the UK


See, you failed to understand the deeper drive here. The EU does not like unstable countries at our border and the EU does like the European continent to prosper. So, everything the EU can do to achieve this, without leaving the fundamental values and pillars on which the EU is founded, the EU would like to do. What it can't do and will not do is give the UK a more beneficial deal than the EU members have, but that should go without saying but with the Brexitremist it is good to repeat it sometimes.



By all means if that’s how you want to see it so you don’t lose face, then i’m not going to keep banging on about nor am I here to gloat. If it does mean that a satisfactory deal can be reached by the EU/UK I’m all for it but if not least they tried untill the end, and that complies with what parliament actually voted for.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:35 am

A101 wrote:
By all means if that’s how you want to see it so you don’t lose face, then i’m not going to keep banging on about nor am I here to gloat. If it does mean that a satisfactory deal can be reached by the EU/UK I’m all for it but if not least they tried untill the end, and that complies with what parliament actually voted for.


I am losing face? :roll:

You still haven't got it and what my motivations actually are, so please don't try to guess, you're not all that good at it.

What is a satisfactory deal? That is the million Euro/Pound question. What is acceptable to the majority of the current Parliament and the remaining EU countries - all of whom have a veto in this remember. The UK/EU negotiation team hasn't been able to figure it out in the past 3 years, so you might be able to come up with a sollution.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:29 pm

The EU insisted on a two stage deal (backstop first) because they didn’t trust the UK to negotiate cleanly.

They were right!

The UK government agreed to backstop, and then started Backtracking straight away.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:35 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The British Royal Marines seized an Iranian tanker last week in accordance to #EU Syrian sanctions.
#Iran have now captured 2 #British tankers against international law.
Not one word from the EU denouncing this action only support from our #American cousins.

And yet some deluded EU cheerleaders will never accept that the UK’s closest ally is the USA and not any nation within the EU.


Google is your friend. Use it sometime. It stops you looking foolish.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-0 ... 243295.htm

https://www.google.com.hk/amp/s/www.rfe ... 65974.html
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
olle
Posts: 1149
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:03 pm

scbriml wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
UK got trapped by its "closest ally" at a time while not having a functioning government.

Spain was smart enough to avoid the trap, probably because they have a functioning government, or maybe because they are smarter. Or both. If only the UK had talked it over with the EU, then they might have been as smart as Spain.


The Iranian tanker was seized in accordance with EU sanctions against Syria. Are you suggesting those sanctions should be ignored?


EU might not consider that UK had the right to go after the Chip;

>>Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister and co-chair of the European council on foreign relations, pinpointed the ambiguities of the British action in Gibraltar: “The legality of the UK seizure of a tanker heading for Syria with oil from Iran intrigues me. One refers to EU sanctions against Syria, but Iran is not a member of the EU. And the EU as a principle doesn’t impose its sanctions on others. That’s what the US does.” <<

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ran-hormuz
 
olle
Posts: 1149
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:08 pm

BestWestern wrote:
The EU insisted on a two stage deal (backstop first) because they didn’t trust the UK to negotiate cleanly.

They were right!

The UK government agreed to backstop, and then started Backtracking straight away.



The backstop was created after members of UK government said that the deal could be ignored at any moment in the end of the negotiations a year ago.

Then EU demanded this texts included.

UK seems to believe that EU27 cannot read express or other UK newspapers online ;-)
 
sbworcs
Posts: 795
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:57 pm

A101 wrote:

Now put the actual conversation in context to the events leading up to referenda, what happened post referenda is another matter entirely.


Why the use of the plural for referendum - we have only had one?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:51 pm

sbworcs wrote:
A101 wrote:

Now put the actual conversation in context to the events leading up to referenda, what happened post referenda is another matter entirely.


Why the use of the plural for referendum - we have only had one?



If that’s all you seem to be worried about in this forum and wether referenda is following the Latin rules of pluralization or not then life must be pretty peachy for you.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6941
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:22 am

scbriml wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
UK got trapped by its "closest ally" at a time while not having a functioning government.

Spain was smart enough to avoid the trap, probably because they have a functioning government, or maybe because they are smarter. Or both. If only the UK had talked it over with the EU, then they might have been as smart as Spain.


The Iranian tanker was seized in accordance with EU sanctions against Syria. Are you suggesting those sanctions should be ignored?

Yes, EU sanctions forbid export of oil to Syria. But Iran is not an EU country. Dear scbriml, what did you expect to be the Iranian reaction to the UK seizure of Grace I ?

If you play world police, then better know what you are doing. And be sure you have the means to do the job.

If you play world police on behalf of the EU, then better talk it over with, and have accept from, the EU in advance. We cannot have any EU country, Estonia, Hungary, or as in this case the UK tour around and play "EU world police" on their own.

What the UK did at Gibraltar against Grace I is so stupid that no words can describe it. But it is the ultimate proof that the present UK leadership is.... no, no words can describe it.

If I was a UK shipping company, or a sailor on a UK managed ship, then I would be extremely angry. And if I was a UK citizen, I would be extremely embarrassed.

I am neither. I am only an EU27 (Danish) citizen who seriously hope that the UK soon again can become a fairly normal and sensible country, and if that's not possible, then as a minimum can get out of any relations to the EU ASAP.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:39 am

prebennorholm wrote:
scbriml wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
UK got trapped by its "closest ally" at a time while not having a functioning government.

Spain was smart enough to avoid the trap, probably because they have a functioning government, or maybe because they are smarter. Or both. If only the UK had talked it over with the EU, then they might have been as smart as Spain.


The Iranian tanker was seized in accordance with EU sanctions against Syria. Are you suggesting those sanctions should be ignored?

Yes, EU sanctions forbid export of oil to Syria. But Iran is not an EU country. Dear scbriml, what did you expect to be the Iranian reaction to the UK seizure of Grace I ?

If you play world police, then better know what you are doing. And be sure you have the means to do the job.

If you play world police on behalf of the EU, then better talk it over with, and have accept from, the EU in advance. We cannot have any EU country, Estonia, Hungary, or as in this case the UK tour around and play "EU world police" on their own.

What the UK did at Gibraltar against Grace I is so stupid that no words can describe it. But it is the ultimate proof that the present UK leadership is.... no, no words can describe it.

If I was a UK shipping company, or a sailor on a UK managed ship, then I would be extremely angry. And if I was a UK citizen, I would be extremely embarrassed.

I am neither. I am only an EU27 (Danish) citizen who seriously hope that the UK soon again can become a fairly normal and sensible country, and if that's not possible, then as a minimum can get out of any relations to the EU ASAP.



I don’t know the in’s and outs of all this but I did come across something that might paint a different picture on why the UK acted the way it did, I came across it on a defence forum and posted today by OPSG site moderator for DT forums

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/sanctions-on-syria

See UK’s published laws and guidelines on trade with Syria: Embargoes and sanctions on Syria
UK is bound by domestic law to enforce trade restrictions on Syria. These are EU imposed embargoes which are directly applicable in UK law. The EU originally imposed sanctions which came into force on 10 May 2011.
The current trade sanction measures in force are set out in Council Decision 2012/122/CFSP which was adopted and came into force on 27 February 2012. On the same day, the EU also issued an implementing measure, Council Regulation (EU) No 168/2012, which amends Council Regulation (EU) No 36/2012.
The EU has also imposed a further implementing measure - Council Regulation (EU) No 509/2012 - which came into force on 17 June 2012. This measure, which also amends Council Regulation EU (No 36/2012) imposes a prohibition on the sale, supply, transfer or export of listed luxury goods and certain dual-use items and chemicals.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:18 am

prebennorholm wrote:
UK got trapped by its "closest ally" at a time while not having a functioning government.


Indeed, in international diplomacy, weaknesses are never left unexploited for very long: the USA demonstrated this rather cynically and without much delay to that self-proclaimed 'closest aly': fearful of taking the front seat in the confrontation with Iran, it put the UK into the front seat, knowing it has nowhere near the desire, the means nor the time to properaly take care of it's international interests as it it fully being consumed by domestic infighting.

scbriml wrote:
The Iranian tanker was seized in accordance with EU sanctions against Syria. Are you suggesting those sanctions should be ignored?


Contrary to the US, the EU does not apply its saction regime on an extraterritorial basis, meaning it is only applicable to EU companies globally, or to foreign companies dealing with the sanctioned country from within the EU....

In this case, the US informed both the Spanish as well as the British government of a Panamanian tanker which was about to sail in front of their coasts with Iranian oil, allegedly bound for Syria. Spain is said to have informed the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and she pointed out the fact it was not required to act given the extraterritorial situation and it would even further complicate the EU's attempt to save the nuclear deal with Iran if it intervened, so the Spanish diplomatically replied to the US they would 'monitor' and 'act if the opportunity' came...
The Brits however decided to go it all alone without informing the EU -after all, who still needs the EU now, right?- and got lured into pulling the tanker of the high sea and dragging it to their port, thus turning the whole situation into a diplomatic nightmare from which there's no more gracefull way out: that's what happens when both your current foreign secretary as well as the previous one are engaged in a bitter leadership contest over who's the best candidate to fight the EU... ROTFL
Mr. J. Bolton could hardly hide his joy on twitter for the strategic blunder he got the Brits to make when he found out what had happened!

A101 wrote:
I don’t know the in’s and outs of all this (...) See, UK is bound by domestic law to enforce trade restrictions on Syria. These are EU imposed embargoes which are directly applicable in UK law


I see, now suddenly it's going to be the fault of the EU if the UK is dragged into a diplomatic nightmare, is it?
As has been pointed out a number of times before: the EU sanctions are NOT enforceable extraterritorially, meaning they did not apply in this case, not until the UK decided to pluck the tanker off the sea and bring it to a harbour within the EU that is: now it IS a matter of the EU sanctions indeed, but only because the UK was so stupid to make it into one!
Well done: is this Global Britain at work?

That you and I don't know the in's and out's of all this, is normal: that a Foreign Office Secretary is so poorly informed to fall into the trap of giving into the request from the US to act and take the front seat in a dispute between Iran and the west, is inexcusable: was he willing to show what a good puppy he is while trying to piss of the "new Soviet Union"? Was he just daydreaming of a UK able to "rule the waves" in the Persian Gulf again? Or was he just too preoccupied with his leadership contest at home for having forgotten to think before he acted?
Whatever it was: it wasn't exactly Britain's finest hour, was it? Now the UK suddenly needs to crawl in front of the world and beg the EU to help save its face... because the US aren't going to come by and reduce the pressure of course: as all of this fits their strategy of maximum pressure.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1096
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:19 am

Dutchy wrote:
Quote from the linked article:

Elsewhere in the programme, Mrs May's de facto deputy David Lidington revealed that a senior EU official made a secret offer to the UK to put Brexit on hold for five years and negotiate a "new deal for Europe".

Mr Lidington said the offer was passed on in 2018 by Martin Selmayr, a senior aide to EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker.

"Martin sort of said, 'Look, why don't we have a deal whereby we just put all this on ice for five years?'

"Let's see how things go, let's get the UK involved with France and Germany, let's see how the dust settles and let's talk about whether we can come to a new deal for Europe.'"


That would have a good solution for everyone. Thinks could have been addressed with minimal damage. Shame it was rejected.


I caught up on the Panorama documentary last night as I missed it when it was first broadcast on Thursday night. Other than the meeting between Martin Selmayr and David Lidington where the above offer was made, nothing new was learnt other than the credibility issues mentioned last week and recapping what has happened since May became PM. Admittedly, I have been following the process from the offset which was why I felt as though I learnt very little else that isn't out there already.

That said, it's worth a watch for anybody still trying to make sense of what has happened to date and why. It'll be on iPlayer for some time.

A101 wrote:
It seems the imminent arrival of BJ has spooked the horses in wanting to make a deal, how true the reports are remain to be seen.


Senior Tory threatens to quit as secret Brexit negotiations begin with likely PM, Boris Johnson


Reports from Britain have also indicated EU countries are secretly wooing Boris Johnson in a bid to thrash out a new Brexit plan that would avoid a no-deal disaster, ahead of Johnson's likely election as prime minister.

Senior Irish politicians and diplomats have held talks with two of Johnson's cabinet allies in recent days, it said. German and French figures as well as the Dutch and Belgian governments have also established contact with Johnson's team and signalled an intention to do a deal, it added.

In a limited extract released on Saturday evening ahead of publication, the paper reported that Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney has indicated Dublin is prepared to compromise.



https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... 529a9.html


In the case of Ireland, I'll believe their change of stance when I see it. I watched Simon Coveney being interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday and he was quite clear that whoever becomes PM this week isn't necessarily going to get an improved deal without solutions being proposed that are yet to be proposed (rightly cited it wouldn't be fair to offer a different deal to what May negotiated). In fact, basically everything he said was what he has said dozens of times in the past. After a bit of grilling from Marr, Coveney also admitted that there would be checks in Ireland in the event of no deal.

Unless the UK changes what it wants or comes with credible alternatives to avoid the backstop, I can't see anything changing. Coveney was quite right to highlight that no deal would essentially be a choice of our government and not imposed by anybody else. Brexiteers will no doubt continue to blame others for opting for no deal, but then their track record of being in touch with reality isn't great.

zkojq wrote:
Idiotic things BoJo said as foreign secretary...


As well as managing to alienate an entire city in an article some time ago. Johnson becoming leader will probably mean he can forget about making any electoral gains in Liverpool and Merseyside and risk losing their sole MP in the area.

A101 wrote:
NO A50 is designed to give the EU maximum pressure against those leaving by having just 2 years to negotiate the whole process, TM caved as fighting just the process runs down the clock in EU favour, shit they could have talked for 2 years just on defining the process. its at this point the penny should have dropped for TM and walked away then and plan on a no deal exit


Or even better revoke Article 50 with an honest statement to the public that Brexit is undeliverable without a clear plan (which there isn't besides the WA), mandate (the 2016 referendum is clutching at straws given the slim majority and the fact that the question did not define what Brexit would look like) and singing off the same hymn sheet, as well as clearly explaining the economic harm and potential damage that will be inflicted to the British economy and society if Brexit was pursued recklessly.

BestWestern wrote:
The UK government agreed to backstop, and then started Backtracking straight away because some MP's don't fully grasp the need for it and why and how it can be avoided.


Edited for accuracy.
Last edited by Boeing74741R on Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
olle
Posts: 1149
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:38 pm

Is this the last roar if the lion?


The global Britain does not have the resources nor the will to have a global precense to be global?

Perhaps it is better like EU does to not pretend something uk obviously is not?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21222
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:24 pm

Now this:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ays-pompeo

Guardian wrote:
UK must look after its own ships in the Gulf, says Pompeo

So effectively the Uk is welcome to veer out of the EU consensus and instead choose to enforce the US embargo, but of course they can't expect any support from the Trump administration in return.

Even when you're licking Trump's boots he still expects you to pay your own bills!
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:25 pm

So, the EU has the Uk’s Back and the US doesn’t.

How reality is so different from the hard right perception of the EU abandoning the UK in Iran over the weekend.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
olle
Posts: 1149
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:20 pm

As I understand it;

Iran did not break EU sanctions until Grace one was in one EU harbor. How it got there is up to discussion. UK was fooled by its best friend?

Now UK asks for a EU navy to help and patrol in the gulf. So after hearing that a EU army is the worse that can happen, UKs best friend USA do not want to help UK and suddenly an EU navy could be nice.

When I believed UK government reached its most low level possible they surprise us again!

If someone told me this story a year ago ;-) Noone could make this one up!

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/brit ... -iran-soar
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:47 pm

BestWestern wrote:
So, the EU has the Uk’s Back and the US doesn’t.

How reality is so different from the hard right perception of the EU abandoning the UK in Iran over the weekend.



Oh I have to laugh, it wouldn’t be that the UK is still a member of the EU and in the EU interests to try and champion the little bit of defence cooperation that May tied to the WA called PESCO by chance now, which goes to show that TM had no intention to leave the EU as PESCO is only open to member states

“We have activated a Permanent Structured Cooperation on Defence – ambitious and inclusive.25 Member States have committed to join forces on a regular basis, to do things together, spend together, invest together, buy together, act together. The possibilities of the Permanent Structured Cooperation are immense.”

Federica Mogherini
High Representative/ Vice-President (December 2017)
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:52 pm

olle wrote:
As I understand it;

Iran did not break EU sanctions until Grace one was in one EU harbor. How it got there is up to discussion. UK was fooled by its best friend?

Now UK asks for a EU navy to help and patrol in the gulf. So after hearing that a EU army is the worse that can happen, UKs best friend USA do not want to help UK and suddenly an EU navy could be nice.

When I believed UK government reached its most low level possible they surprise us again!

If someone told me this story a year ago ;-) Noone could make this one up!

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/brit ... -iran-soar



Yes I was reading that a little while ago and had a chuckle about the irony of the situation, makes me think what are his real intentions in regards to Brexit
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:29 am

A101 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
So, the EU has the Uk’s Back and the US doesn’t.

How reality is so different from the hard right perception of the EU abandoning the UK in Iran over the weekend.



Oh I have to laugh, it wouldn’t be that the UK is still a member of the EU and in the EU interests to try and champion the little bit of defence cooperation that May tied to the WA called PESCO by chance now, which goes to show that TM had no intention to leave the EU as PESCO is only open to member states

“We have activated a Permanent Structured Cooperation on Defence – ambitious and inclusive.25 Member States have committed to join forces on a regular basis, to do things together, spend together, invest together, buy together, act together. The possibilities of the Permanent Structured Cooperation are immense.”

Federica Mogherini
High Representative/ Vice-President (December 2017)


But your alter ego was saying the opposite a few days ago - how the UK was abandoned by Europe and only the US cared for you.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:49 am

BestWestern wrote:
A101 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
So, the EU has the Uk’s Back and the US doesn’t.

How reality is so different from the hard right perception of the EU abandoning the UK in Iran over the weekend.



Oh I have to laugh, it wouldn’t be that the UK is still a member of the EU and in the EU interests to try and champion the little bit of defence cooperation that May tied to the WA called PESCO by chance now, which goes to show that TM had no intention to leave the EU as PESCO is only open to member states

“We have activated a Permanent Structured Cooperation on Defence – ambitious and inclusive.25 Member States have committed to join forces on a regular basis, to do things together, spend together, invest together, buy together, act together. The possibilities of the Permanent Structured Cooperation are immense.”

Federica Mogherini
High Representative/ Vice-President (December 2017)


But your alter ego was saying the opposite a few days ago - how the UK was abandoned by Europe and only the US cared for you.



I think your confused I didn’t say that
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:05 am

A101 wrote:
olle wrote:
As I understand it;

Iran did not break EU sanctions until Grace one was in one EU harbor. How it got there is up to discussion. UK was fooled by its best friend?

Now UK asks for a EU navy to help and patrol in the gulf. So after hearing that a EU army is the worse that can happen, UKs best friend USA do not want to help UK and suddenly an EU navy could be nice.

When I believed UK government reached its most low level possible they surprise us again!

If someone told me this story a year ago ;-) Noone could make this one up!

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/brit ... -iran-soar



Yes I was reading that a little while ago and had a chuckle about the irony of the situation, makes me think what are his real intentions in regards to Brexit


Since Brexit is a bad idea, I understand the opposition against the concept.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
olle wrote:
As I understand it;

Iran did not break EU sanctions until Grace one was in one EU harbor. How it got there is up to discussion. UK was fooled by its best friend?

Now UK asks for a EU navy to help and patrol in the gulf. So after hearing that a EU army is the worse that can happen, UKs best friend USA do not want to help UK and suddenly an EU navy could be nice.

When I believed UK government reached its most low level possible they surprise us again!

If someone told me this story a year ago ;-) Noone could make this one up!

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/brit ... -iran-soar



Yes I was reading that a little while ago and had a chuckle about the irony of the situation, makes me think what are his real intentions in regards to Brexit


Since Brexit is a bad idea, I understand the opposition against the concept.



The 17,410,742 people who voted to leave don’t think it’s a bad idea
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9559
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:45 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


Yes I was reading that a little while ago and had a chuckle about the irony of the situation, makes me think what are his real intentions in regards to Brexit


Since Brexit is a bad idea, I understand the opposition against the concept.



The 17,410,742 people who voted to leave don’t think it’s a bad idea


Let's find out if they still feel this way after 3 years of disaster.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:03 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Since Brexit is a bad idea, I understand the opposition against the concept.



The 17,410,742 people who voted to leave don’t think it’s a bad idea


Let's find out if they still feel this way after 3 years of disaster.


Don’t need to, it’s already written in law in the UK
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10644
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:13 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


The 17,410,742 people who voted to leave don’t think it’s a bad idea


Let's find out if they still feel this way after 3 years of disaster.


Don’t need to, it’s already written in law in the UK


Cool, they already made laws telling people what to think?

Thats a new one...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:35 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Let's find out if they still feel this way after 3 years of disaster.


Don’t need to, it’s already written in law in the UK


Cool, they already made laws telling people what to think?

Thats a new one...

best regards
Thomas



Nope no laws on what to think, but they have made laws on EXIT DAY date.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2019

Section 1 of the Act requires the Government to allow Parliament to debate a motion to require the prime minister to seek an extension to the period in which the United Kingdom is to negotiate the terms of its withdrawal from the European Union ("Brexit") under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union. The motion must be moved on the day the Act received royal assent or on the next day, so 8 or 9 April 2019. If Parliament passes the motion then the prime minister is legally obliged to comply with it and seek an extension to a date chosen by Parliament (although the extension must still be agreed to by the EU).

Section 2 streamlines the procedure for amending UK law to reflect the new date for "exit day," the date on which the UK is to leave the EU.
 
User avatar
Grizzly410
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:39 am

A101 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
So, the EU has the Uk’s Back and the US doesn’t.
How reality is so different from the hard right perception of the EU abandoning the UK in Iran over the weekend.

Oh I have to laugh, it wouldn’t be that the UK is still a member of the EU and in the EU interests to try and champion the little bit of defence cooperation that May tied to the WA called PESCO by chance now, which goes to show that TM had no intention to leave the EU as PESCO is only open to member states


While it's true UK is still a member therefore backed by EU, and that's precisely why we all can see the great irony behind the situation (EU Army = baaaaaaad, but EU Navy = pretty useful when the special relationship best friend traps you), the rest of your claim is wrong : WA makes clear UK is still considered as a member for a lot of things during the Transition Period but not when it comes to for PESCO.

WA wrote:
6. Unless otherwise provided in this Agreement, during the transition period, any reference to
Member States in the Union law applicable pursuant to paragraph 1, including as implemented and
applied by Member States, shall be understood as including the United Kingdom.

7. By way of derogation from paragraph 6:
(a) for the purposes of Article 42(6) and Article 46 TEU and of Protocol (No 10) on permanent
structured cooperation established by Article 42 TEU, any references to Member States shall
be understood as not including the United Kingdom.
This shall not preclude the possibility for
the United Kingdom to be invited to participate as a third country in individual projects under
the conditions set out in Council Decision (CFSP) 2017/2315 (1) on an exceptional basis, or in
any other form of cooperation to the extent allowed and under the conditions set out by future
Union acts adopted on the basis of Article 42(6) and Article 46 TEU
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
A101
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:08 am

Boris Johnson was just announced as the new Prime Minister
 
agill
Posts: 1036
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:30 am

A101 wrote:
Boris Johnson was just announced as the new Prime Minister


Well this will be fun.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Spar, TSS and 30 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos