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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:02 am

A101 wrote:
That’s the might be the whole point of difference between from the posters from the continent and pro leave from the UK is I’m betting a majority don’t look at the EU as a whole as a political union but as a trade block and we do not like the directions the EU wants to move to. I haven’t got a problem if majority of member nations want to move in that direction, it’s just a direction I prefer the UK do not.


Brexit to most remainers is about potential economics suicide, leavers just want a break from the EU to be able to make laws and trade with other like minded nations without 27 others influenceing UK interests from within the EU trade agreements


The EU is our trade block and a vehicle to solve problems that are too big for one nation to solve. The UK is a small nation in a big big world and a big nation in the EU, which is a big big block in the world. Leavers want to be a big nation in a big world, but that is a unicorn, that boat has sailed a long time ago.

Why wouldn't be the motives of remainers be more than just economical, just as for the Brexiteers it is more than just economical (also because there aren't any, especially hard economic hit if there is a hard Brexit). Just because your motives are that the EU isn't heading in the right direction, that doesn't mean that all remainers think like that, a good chunk of them might actually like what the EU does for them in their lives and they might actually like the four freedoms. And for the leavers, there might be other motives as well. Always dangerous to take your personal opinions as a measure for everybody else. So your opinion is appreciated, but please don't generalize.

You can trade with other countries, sure, why not, of the 35 advanced economies in the world, there are 27 within the EU. The whole continent of Africa has as large a GDP as France and is located a bit farther away.
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ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:13 am

The financial services and insurance/reinsurance industry has a major base in the UK, it is a major employer and one has to wonder how much they will be affected by any form of Brexit, especially if a 'hard' one. We have already seen 1000's of jobs and operations transferred to other countries of the EU and one has to wonder how the affects on the value of the Pound will be on them. There is also the UK's tax and corporate dodging island entities like Bermuda where many insurers have a base and how they will be affected ad won't be connected to the EU anymore.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:14 am

seahawk wrote:
A short downturn will be followed by lasting boom, once the Torries can make the UK globally competitive again and free of the limitations imposed by the EU.



How will that economic boom happen? Where will the economic growth come from? The UK has the best deal possible with 27 out of the 35 advanced economies in the world, so that will only be less. America is refusing a deal until the Northern Ireland issue is solved, Canada is waiting to see what will happen. Japan doesn't seem to keen either to strike a deal and has twice the GDP that the UK has, so the UK is the underdog in that relationship. Australia and New Zealand are on the other side of the earth, that leaves Israel as an advanced economy, a country of 4million to trade with.

Yeah, it will be a great economic success, in 30 years according to Farage or 50 years according to Rees-Mogg. :roll:

Although, one shining point though, many of the top Brexiteers will want to get out of the EU before the 1st of January, at that time new legislation will kick in about the financial sector and that could really hurt the top Brexiteers, so yeah, getting out 31st of October is paramount for them, crashing out, is fine, with a deal, is fine, even if it will reg the country,. is fine. What I fail to understand why the Brexiteers believe in unicorns to help these lot to secure their wealth, why is that?
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:16 am

ltbewr wrote:
The financial services and insurance/reinsurance industry has a major base in the UK, it is a major employer and one has to wonder how much they will be affected by any form of Brexit, especially if a 'hard' one. We have already seen 1000's of jobs and operations transferred to other countries of the EU and one has to wonder how the affects on the value of the Pound will be on them. There is also the UK's tax and corporate dodging island entities like Bermuda where many insurers have a base and how they will be affected ad won't be connected to the EU anymore.


Don't forget about the trillions that already left the UK, investments that are handled in mainland Europe or Ireland now. So yeah, the financial sector has been hard hit and will be hit much harder in case of a hard Brexit.
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
A short downturn will be followed by lasting boom, once the Torries can make the UK globally competitive again and free of the limitations imposed by the EU.



How will that economic boom happen? Where will the economic growth come from? The UK has the best deal possible with 27 out of the 35 advanced economies in the world, so that will only be less. America is refusing a deal until the Northern Ireland issue is solved, Canada is waiting to see what will happen. Japan doesn't seem to keen either to strike a deal and has twice the GDP that the UK has, so the UK is the underdog in that relationship. Australia and New Zealand are on the other side of the earth, that leaves Israel as an advanced economy, a country of 4million to trade with.

Yeah, it will be a great economic success, in 30 years according to Farage or 50 years according to Rees-Mogg. :roll:

Although, one shining point though, many of the top Brexiteers will want to get out of the EU before the 1st of January, at that time new legislation will kick in about the financial sector and that could really hurt the top Brexiteers, so yeah, getting out 31st of October is paramount for them, crashing out, is fine, with a deal, is fine, even if it will reg the country,. is fine. What I fail to understand why the Brexiteers believe in unicorns to help these lot to secure their wealth, why is that?


Is the plan not obvious. They plan on lowering standards, be it social security, employee rights or environmental protection. The Singapore model was mentioned more than enough.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:25 pm

They target a Singapore model and may end with a Hong-Kong like unrest :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:44 pm

seahawk wrote:
A short downturn will be followed by lasting boom, once the Torries can make the UK globally competitive again and free of the limitations imposed by the EU.


I hope for the future of UK that you are right.

I can easily see that if it takes 50 years or 2 generations as some prominent leavers mentioned after the election to see improvements Todays UK will be tomorrows ex UK with one united Ireland and one depentent Scotland.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:07 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
A short downturn will be followed by lasting boom, once the Torries can make the UK globally competitive again and free of the limitations imposed by the EU.



How will that economic boom happen? Where will the economic growth come from? The UK has the best deal possible with 27 out of the 35 advanced economies in the world, so that will only be less. America is refusing a deal until the Northern Ireland issue is solved, Canada is waiting to see what will happen. Japan doesn't seem to keen either to strike a deal and has twice the GDP that the UK has, so the UK is the underdog in that relationship. Australia and New Zealand are on the other side of the earth, that leaves Israel as an advanced economy, a country of 4million to trade with.

Yeah, it will be a great economic success, in 30 years according to Farage or 50 years according to Rees-Mogg. :roll:

Although, one shining point though, many of the top Brexiteers will want to get out of the EU before the 1st of January, at that time new legislation will kick in about the financial sector and that could really hurt the top Brexiteers, so yeah, getting out 31st of October is paramount for them, crashing out, is fine, with a deal, is fine, even if it will reg the country,. is fine. What I fail to understand why the Brexiteers believe in unicorns to help these lot to secure their wealth, why is that?


Is the plan not obvious. They plan on lowering standards, be it social security, employee rights or environmental protection. The Singapore model was mentioned more than enough.


Sure, so economic growth for the happy few and lowering all standards, thus the standard of living, for the rest of the lot. Sound like a great plan.

BTW the Norwegean and Swiss model was also mentioned a lot during the campaign by Farage and other Brexiteers, so who knows what they think of next. Soon the UK has the least competitive economy in the world
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:08 pm

Olddog wrote:
They target a Singapore model and may end with a Hong-Kong like unrest :)


Spot on mate.
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marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:51 pm

A101 wrote:
...to be able to make laws and trade with other like minded nations...

That will make this world a better place...
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:16 pm

A101 wrote:
...to be able to make laws and trade with other like minded nations...



What is equal minded nations? The ones that do as UK want them to do?

Then we can avoid to include USA, China, India, EU. Perhaps Singapore fits the description. Have the ruling elite in UK asked the brittish people if a Singapore model is wanted? Looking at pictures from Scotland and NI I am not so convinced.

UK need to remember that nations like NL, Sweden not to mention Germany is using the FTAs that EU generates to expand their business to such level that mr Trump threatens mentioned countries.

What is it that these countries can export to for example Asia with great success and UK only see EU not as enabler but obstacle? I think there is many like me that have got this question for many years.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
That’s the might be the whole point of difference between from the posters from the continent and pro leave from the UK is I’m betting a majority don’t look at the EU as a whole as a political union but as a trade block and we do not like the directions the EU wants to move to. I haven’t got a problem if majority of member nations want to move in that direction, it’s just a direction I prefer the UK do not.


Brexit to most remainers is about potential economics suicide, leavers just want a break from the EU to be able to make laws and trade with other like minded nations without 27 others influenceing UK interests from within the EU trade agreements


The EU is our trade block and a vehicle to solve problems that are too big for one nation to solve. The UK is a small nation in a big big world and a big nation in the EU, which is a big big block in the world. Leavers want to be a big nation in a big world, but that is a unicorn, that boat has sailed a long time ago.

Why wouldn't be the motives of remainers be more than just economical, just as for the Brexiteers it is more than just economical (also because there aren't any, especially hard economic hit if there is a hard Brexit). Just because your motives are that the EU isn't heading in the right direction, that doesn't mean that all remainers think like that, a good chunk of them might actually like what the EU does for them in their lives and they might actually like the four freedoms. And for the leavers, there might be other motives as well. Always dangerous to take your personal opinions as a measure for everybody else. So your opinion is appreciated, but please don't generalize.

You can trade with other countries, sure, why not, of the 35 advanced economies in the world, there are 27 within the EU. The whole continent of Africa has as large a GDP as France and is located a bit farther away.


The UK is in the 5th largest economy in the world.

Economically it is not a small nation.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:21 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
The UK is in the 5th largest economy in the world.

Economically it is not a small nation.


At the moment you are doing everything to make just that to become a reality. 5th might be true at the moment, but India and France aren't too far behind, with Brexit coming you might slip into 6th or 7th place soon.
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olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:38 pm

If Pound Euro comes to 1-1 then UK is probably on #7. 5,6 and 7 are very close to each other.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:40 pm

Some ranking starts to show UK at #7 for 2019 like http://statisticstimes.com/economy/proj ... anking.php
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:09 pm

olle wrote:
Some ranking starts to show UK at #7 for 2019 like http://statisticstimes.com/economy/proj ... anking.php


If it will be at 1 versus 1 for Pound - Euro, some predict it will be 1vs 1 for Pound - Dollar, so that is another 10% gone, give or take.
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Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:14 pm

seahawk wrote:
Is the plan not obvious. They plan on lowering standards, be it social security, employee rights or environmental protection. The Singapore model was mentioned more than enough.

Even arch-brexiter James Dyson prefers the real deal over the imitation he was pushing for himself.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:18 pm

Being largest means nothing. Brazil and Italy are also large basket cases.
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olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:24 pm

If uk play it cards well, uk is #1 in Europe 2050. If it playslike now it will be #3 after Germany and France. But then the difference to Italy is not so far. But so bad I do not expect it to go.


What is the gdp of England and wales?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The UK is in the 5th largest economy in the world.

Economically it is not a small nation.


At the moment you are doing everything to make just that to become a reality. 5th might be true at the moment, but India and France aren't too far behind, with Brexit coming you might slip into 6th or 7th place soon.


No you are speculating.

You said we are a small nation which is completely factually incorrect and now, having been corrected, you are off on wild speculation as a response.

Lets stick to facts eh?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:10 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The UK is in the 5th largest economy in the world.

Economically it is not a small nation.


At the moment you are doing everything to make just that to become a reality. 5th might be true at the moment, but India and France aren't too far behind, with Brexit coming you might slip into 6th or 7th place soon.


No you are speculating.

You said we are a small nation which is completely factually incorrect and now, having been corrected, you are off on wild speculation as a response.

Lets stick to facts eh?


Fact is that the UK is small compared to the EU. So everything has to do with perspective. And as for wild speculation, slipping to seventh place isn't wild at all given the number of articles written about it. Do you know what is wild speculation? Claiming that Brexit will be economical benificial, you can hardly find professionals whom share that opinion. So come off your high horse.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:12 pm

olle wrote:
If uk play it cards well, uk is #1 in Europe 2050. If it playslike now it will be #3 after Germany and France. But then the difference to Italy is not so far. But so bad I do not expect it to go.


What is the gdp of England and wales?


Seriously, how can the UK play its cards right and become first in Europe? I can't think of a single scenario where that would happen, short of finding in the UK some enormous rare metal that is in huge demand or something.
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Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Seriously, how can the UK play its cards right and become first in Europe? I can't think of a single scenario where that would happen, short of finding in the UK some enormous rare metal that is in huge demand or something.

A pot of gold at the end of a rainbow would fit right in with the unicorns.

But isn't that an irish myth anyway...? ;)
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:58 am

And of course the Brexiteers profit from the EU.

Brexit enforcer Cummings’ farm took €235,000 in EU handouts

Boris Johnson aide, a strident critic of Brussels, is accused of hypocrisy over payments


Source

So Dominic Cummings is a hypocrite. If the EU is so bad, why take its money? Just the same as Farage.
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olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:27 pm

UK will soon be in the situation hat EU has with farmers;

Option;

Farmers to survive with in Europe accepted standard of living;

EU CAP; Compensate farmers for differens in standards of compared to for example Afrika.

Restrictions on import. can be qwuantaties or adding cost to import

Farmers do not survive or accept lower standard of living;

no compensation 0 import restrictions or import fees.
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And of course the Brexiteers profit from the EU.

Brexit enforcer Cummings’ farm took €235,000 in EU handouts

Boris Johnson aide, a strident critic of Brussels, is accused of hypocrisy over payments


Source

So Dominic Cummings is a hypocrite. If the EU is so bad, why take its money? Just the same as Farage.

You’re wrong.... it’s compensation for al those Billions which the UK has given to the EU in the last decades....
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:31 pm

Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Seriously, how can the UK play its cards right and become first in Europe? I can't think of a single scenario where that would happen, short of finding in the UK some enormous rare metal that is in huge demand or something.

A pot of gold at the end of a rainbow would fit right in with the unicorns.

But isn't that an irish myth anyway...? ;)


Considering how Brexit presents the numbers; https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-eu-i ... k-economy/

During 20 years 1999 to 2019 UK would had been 10% bigger then today or 3200000 billion USD

Now in 2050 Brexit presents if the gained would have been eqal much better then Germany while I suppose Germany also underperforms as EU member, It should gain 20% relatively better then Germany the next 40 years.

That means that UK 2050 considering Brexit presentation 2050 shall have equal GDP as Germany if it had left 1999 and if it leaves 2019 be bigger then Germany 2070 more or less.

This is a fact! just read the Brexit information site!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And of course the Brexiteers profit from the EU.

Brexit enforcer Cummings’ farm took €235,000 in EU handouts

Boris Johnson aide, a strident critic of Brussels, is accused of hypocrisy over payments


Source

So Dominic Cummings is a hypocrite. If the EU is so bad, why take its money? Just the same as Farage.


Not sure what's the problem here. He share ownership of a farm in EU and run the business with the existing rules, what's wrong ?
He's actually well placed to understand the "business model" (can't find better words) will be affected by being out of the CAP and yet thinks it's a good idea... For once that's consistent.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Not sure what's the problem here. He share ownership of a farm in EU and run the business with the existing rules, what's wrong?
He's actually well placed to understand the "business model" (can't find better words) will be affected by being out of the CAP and yet thinks it's a good idea... For once that's consistent.


That is a perfectly reasonable point of view to take, the other side is that it is hypocritical to take this money if you are against it in the first place.

It is quite remarkable though and within the whole debate quite insignificantly, I agree.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Not sure what's the problem here. He share ownership of a farm in EU and run the business with the existing rules, what's wrong?
He's actually well placed to understand the "business model" (can't find better words) will be affected by being out of the CAP and yet thinks it's a good idea... For once that's consistent.


That is a perfectly reasonable point of view to take, the other side is that it is hypocritical to take this money if you are against it in the first place.

It is quite remarkable though and within the whole debate quite insignificantly, I agree.


As much I can understand the hypocrisy of Mr Farage taking the EU money to seat as MEP (he should simply not even come to Parliament, no parliamentary team, and if any money received anyway : give it to charity), for me this money for a business working under EU law is just quite normal.

And yeah, definitely insignificant in the grand scheme.
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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:46 pm

there are worse things than no-deal.


Jean-Claude said: “We need one President, one finance minister, an army by 2025, to expand the Schengen zone. If you’re in the EU, you are taking the Euro, you are in Schengen zone.”

Chilling.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:53 pm

It is a good thing that UK will be no more an obstacle. But I think 2025 is very optimistic I don't expect it before 2040.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:55 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
there are worse things than no-deal.


Oh I see, you are shifting your ground yet again, from no-deal is the heaven for Brittain to there are worse things............

What is next, "I voted for economic hardship, unemployment and having no deals with anyone etc. etc. etc." routine?
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:29 pm

Interesting legal argument, written by Rose Slowe is an Honorary Research Fellow at University of Bristol Law School, an author on EU law, and a barrister at Foundry Chambers.:

Leaving the EU without a deal on 29 March 2019 is not the “legal default”, as has been repeatedly, but wrongly, asserted. It would, in fact, be in violation of the supreme law at both the domestic and supranational level, namely the UK constitution and EU Treaties (or more broadly, the General Principles of Community Law which includes ECJ jurisprudence alongside the Treaties). As such, without an Act of Parliament authorizing Brexit in whatever form, the legal default is that the Article 50 notice issued will lapse, if not unilaterally revoked.


link to the full article and legal argument

That is certainly foot for thaught and might bring a whole new perspective on the Brexit-case. If it is true - and why wouldn't it be - that leaving the EU at 31st of November actually needs a deal, or leaving would be against the UK constitution and EU Treaties, then this contradicts many beliefs in public. So you could have a situation where everybody thinks the UK has left the EU on November 1st, but it could be ruled afterwards that in fact, the UK never left and all the mess was created for nothing.

Philip Moorhouse created a petition to discuss this issue in the House of Commons, before the 31st of October. If you are an UK citizen, you could sign it here. And I think it is in the interest of everybody, leavers, remainers and non-UK citizens alike to have this issue resolved beforehand and not afterwards.

Since you were given all the legal arguments @A101, what do you think about this potential legal obstacle?
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:44 pm

If the UK leaves there may be a portfolio of bills enacted in the EU which otherwise would have faced a UK veto. And then let me repeat, after NI, Scotland, and maybe Wales bail out and join the EU (and London starts demanding city-state status) The former UK, now the rump England will beg to rejoin. Guess what?

disclosure - my stake in no Brexit is that of the long time US policy (less of course Trump). The US appreciated the UKs ability to somewhat represent the US's interest to the rest of the EU.
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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
there are worse things than no-deal.


Oh I see, you are shifting your ground yet again, from no-deal is the heaven for Brittain to there are worse things............

What is next, "I voted for economic hardship, unemployment and having no deals with anyone etc. etc. etc." routine?


I am not shifting my ground at all.

I just want out of the wretched EU. Dealing with the scum that is the European Union. If we can get a deal that is good for the UK, then fine. Otherwise no deal is fine.

Britain is spelt this way. It is not clever or funny to keep spelling it wrong.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
I just want out of the wretched EU. Dealing with the scum that is the European Union.

Your problem is that what you're imagining the EU to be has never existed in reality. You are about to leave the actual, real European Union instead, but all your venom will stay with you, because your leaders have just been using the EU as a scapegoat for their own failings, which will only become more evident with Brexit.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:52 pm

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I just want out of the wretched EU. Dealing with the scum that is the European Union.

Your problem is that what you're imagining the EU to be has never existed in reality. You are about to leave the actual, real European Union instead, but all your venom will stay with you, because your leaders have just been using the EU as a scapegoat for their own failings, which will only become more evident with Brexit.


Utter drivel.

You don’t know anything about me. Other than my dislike of the European Union.

The day we leave, I will be content. No more venom as you put it.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:56 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I just want out of the wretched EU. Dealing with the scum that is the European Union.

Your problem is that what you're imagining the EU to be has never existed in reality. You are about to leave the actual, real European Union instead, but all your venom will stay with you, because your leaders have just been using the EU as a scapegoat for their own failings, which will only become more evident with Brexit.


Utter drivel.

You don’t know anything about me. Other than my dislike of the European Union.

You've left very little to the imagination here in these threads, so your actual attitude and imaginations are well documented.

The day we leave, I will be content. No more venom as you put it.

You and I both know that that won't be the case. All that hatred will need new targets once the UK has crashed out of the EU but all the problems in the UK still remain the same, or worse.

What will be your scapegoat be then?
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:00 pm

Ah I see some posts of my have been deleted. Freedom of speech according to the Brexiteers?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting legal argument, written by Rose Slowe is an Honorary Research Fellow at University of Bristol Law School, an author on EU law, and a barrister at Foundry Chambers.:

Leaving the EU without a deal on 29 March 2019 is not the “legal default”, as has been repeatedly, but wrongly, asserted. It would, in fact, be in violation of the supreme law at both the domestic and supranational level, namely the UK constitution and EU Treaties (or more broadly, the General Principles of Community Law which includes ECJ jurisprudence alongside the Treaties). As such, without an Act of Parliament authorizing Brexit in whatever form, the legal default is that the Article 50 notice issued will lapse, if not unilaterally revoked.


link to the full article and legal argument

That is certainly foot for thaught and might bring a whole new perspective on the Brexit-case. If it is true - and why wouldn't it be - that leaving the EU at 31st of November actually needs a deal, or leaving would be against the UK constitution and EU Treaties, then this contradicts many beliefs in public. So you could have a situation where everybody thinks the UK has left the EU on November 1st, but it could be ruled afterwards that in fact, the UK never left and all the mess was created for nothing.

Philip Moorhouse created a petition to discuss this issue in the House of Commons, before the 31st of October. If you are an UK citizen, you could sign it here. And I think it is in the interest of everybody, leavers, remainers and non-UK citizens alike to have this issue resolved beforehand and not afterwards.

Since you were given all the legal arguments @A101, what do you think about this potential legal obstacle?


It certainly is an interesting theory one I don’t think would stands up in court and that court would be the ECJ which would follow the constitutional rules under the TEU which A50 is derived from.

The Author is quite correct that the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 does not repeal the European Communities Act 1972, but the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 which was amended in 2019 when parliament voted for extension to A50 does which was given Royal Assent April 2019

So thus far the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 meets our constitutional requirements under A50 to withdraw from the EU under A50 TEU, and the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 meets our constitutional requirements on exit day as it repeals the European Communities Act 1972 by an act of parliament.


The procedure and consequences for withdrawl apply under EU law and under the TEU as per Article 50 section 3:

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.



The above is LAW under the TEU


The author assumption that without a WA it begets that the EU is forcing an expulsion on the UK which far from the truth, the EU as a whole cannot invoke A50 as only a member nations can do that, the EU is a collective not a member nation as it cannot invoke A50 so no expulsion is deemed only it could become possibility under Article 7

In her conclusions the absence of time and and needs an act of parliament as I have already mentioned it has already been given Royal Assent as the amended European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2019 on exit day actully repeals the European Communities Act 1972 and makes provisions for EU-derived domestic legislation, to become domestic law immediately on exit day at 31 October 2019 at 11pm GMT which was done under parliamentary sovereignty and our constitution requirements
Last edited by A101 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:28 am

marcelh wrote:
Ah I see some posts of my have been deleted. Freedom of speech according to the Brexiteers?



Nope have had the same thing happen to me, interesting you are insinuating that the mods are pro leave!!
 
marcelh
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Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:34 am

A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Ah I see some posts of my have been deleted. Freedom of speech according to the Brexiteers?



Nope have had the same thing happen to me, interesting you are insinuating that the mods are pro leave!!

My posts only can be deleted by a moderator for whatever reasons. Could be personal preferences or because a member of this forum didn’t like my posts and filed a complaint.
I didn’t say the moderators of this forum are pro leave, you are. Please don’t try to blame me for something I haven’t said, I don’t like that.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:52 am

marcelh wrote:
A101 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Ah I see some posts of my have been deleted. Freedom of speech according to the Brexiteers?



Nope have had the same thing happen to me, interesting you are insinuating that the mods are pro leave!!

My posts only can be deleted by a moderator for whatever reasons. Could be personal preferences or because a member of this forum didn’t like my posts and filed a complaint.
I didn’t say the moderators of this forum are pro leave, you are. Please don’t try to blame me for something I haven’t said, I don’t like that.



Well I haven’t seen the posts in question so I have no idea what was deleted,

You also attempted to proclaim you post were deleted and in your words “Freedom of speech according to the Brexiteers?” you have insinuated that your posts were deleted due to the fact a brexiterr didn’t like what was read and deleted them and you right to free speech has been infringed, why don’t you instead contact a mod and ask the question why it was deleted instead of sprouting off and accusing either a mod or brexiter of a dog act because obviously you have either offended someone or breeched the forum rules.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10644
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:57 am

Klaus wrote:
What will be your scapegoat be then?


Still the EU. For not giving a descent deal to the UK and hence ruin the UK economy of course....

olle wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Seriously, how can the UK play its cards right and become first in Europe? I can't think of a single scenario where that would happen, short of finding in the UK some enormous rare metal that is in huge demand or something.

A pot of gold at the end of a rainbow would fit right in with the unicorns.

But isn't that an irish myth anyway...? ;)


Considering how Brexit presents the numbers; https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-eu-i ... k-economy/

During 20 years 1999 to 2019 UK would had been 10% bigger then today or 3200000 billion USD


Odd that they are using productivity growth and not productivity..... mmmmmh.... i wonder why that it.....

Claim wrote:
: From being a productivity leader in the 1960s, the EU became a laggard by the late 1990s: p.


Reality: The UK economy was so, so far behind that it took more than a decade of picking up low hanging fruits and improve productivity drastically to just and only catch up with the rest.

Image

Claim wrote:
productivity growth in the USA has been higher than in the EU by 1 percentage point per year since 1999.


Reality: The US economy was lacking in productivity in the 1990 quite a bit, and just like the UK in the 1960 had low hanging fruits to pick to play catch up.

Image

Fun how they can lie using real number. Brexiteers, kings of spin.....

Charts are GDP per hour worked with 2010 as 100%.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:33 am

A101 wrote:
It certainly is an interesting theory one I don’t think would stands up in court and that court would be the ECJ which would follow the constitutional rules under the TEU which A50 is derived from.

The Author is quite correct that the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 does not repeal the European Communities Act 1972, but the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 which was amended in 2019 when parliament voted for extension to A50 does which was given Royal Assent April 2019

So thus far the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 meets our constitutional requirements under A50 to withdraw from the EU under A50 TEU, and the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 meets our constitutional requirements on exit day as it repeals the European Communities Act 1972 by an act of parliament.


The procedure and consequences for withdrawl apply under EU law and under the TEU as per Article 50 section 3:

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.



The above is LAW under the TEU


The author assumption that without a WA it begets that the EU is forcing an expulsion on the UK which far from the truth, the EU as a whole cannot invoke A50 as only a member nations can do that, the EU is a collective not a member nation as it cannot invoke A50 so no expulsion is deemed only it could become possibility under Article 7

In her conclusions the absence of time and and needs an act of parliament as I have already mentioned it has already been given Royal Assent as the amended European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2019 on exit day actully repeals the European Communities Act 1972 and makes provisions for EU-derived domestic legislation, to become domestic law immediately on exit day at 31 October 2019 at 11pm GMT which was done under parliamentary sovereignty and our constitution requirements


We're going to see if your interpretation holds any merit or that the interpretation by scientist Rose Slowe does, she is a Research Fellow of a Law School and a barrister after all. We don't know your background, so she holds the upper hand here ;)

In any case, I think you would agree that this needs to be cleared up, preferably before 31st of October in order to test that your interpretation is upheld in court.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:41 am

Meanwhile, Brexiteers are moving the goalposts once again…

The original pre-referendum aim:
- "we'll leave the EU but not the benefits of SM membership"
=> Exit the EU

Then came the post-referendum aim:
-"we'll have a bespoke deal with the EU which will guarantee us the same frictionless access to the SM as membership of it does"
(and which kicked in the need for what became the Political Declaration to set out exactly what kind of close relationship is possible for a non-SM-member)
=> Exit the SM

Then came TM's vision as expressed in her Lancaster House speech:
- "we'll have a comperehensive FTA with the EU which will avoid putting up trade barriers between the 2 of us and still allow to diverge and do our own deals with others at the same time" (and which kicked in the need for the backstop in the WA)
=> Exit CU

To BoJo's:
-"we can't agree to this comprehensive FTA because of the backstop provisions put in the WA, so we should just leave without a deal first and go on to negotiate a FTA with the EU once we're completely out."
=> Exit WA

To the latest:
- "we can't accept the goals put forward in the Political Declaration either: it ties our hands! We can't have a FTA with the EU as it will come with unacceptable obligations on environmental, social and consumer rights."
=> Exit Political Declaration
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... atal-trap/



It's getting clearer by the day what the real aim is in the minds of all those who run the show in Brexit Britain:
turn the UK into a US style economy with much lower levels of protection for millions of ordinary Brits when it comes to their social, environmental and consumer rights!
In the minds of those who cooked up Brexit, Brexit wasn't a goal in itself, but rather just a mean to achieve all they had long been dreaming of: taking back control of laws and money was not just out of principle, it was to radically change the way in which they are being used right now and believe me, it's not to spend more on or to offer more rights to working class Britts.
I wonder how many of those who voted for Brexit (when it was presented as a goal in itself) would have voted for the real goal (i.e. to turn the UK into a US style of economy)?
 
A101
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:49 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
It certainly is an interesting theory one I don’t think would stands up in court and that court would be the ECJ which would follow the constitutional rules under the TEU which A50 is derived from.

The Author is quite correct that the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 does not repeal the European Communities Act 1972, but the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 which was amended in 2019 when parliament voted for extension to A50 does which was given Royal Assent April 2019

So thus far the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 meets our constitutional requirements under A50 to withdraw from the EU under A50 TEU, and the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 meets our constitutional requirements on exit day as it repeals the European Communities Act 1972 by an act of parliament.


The procedure and consequences for withdrawl apply under EU law and under the TEU as per Article 50 section 3:

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.



The above is LAW under the TEU


The author assumption that without a WA it begets that the EU is forcing an expulsion on the UK which far from the truth, the EU as a whole cannot invoke A50 as only a member nations can do that, the EU is a collective not a member nation as it cannot invoke A50 so no expulsion is deemed only it could become possibility under Article 7

In her conclusions the absence of time and and needs an act of parliament as I have already mentioned it has already been given Royal Assent as the amended European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2019 on exit day actully repeals the European Communities Act 1972 and makes provisions for EU-derived domestic legislation, to become domestic law immediately on exit day at 31 October 2019 at 11pm GMT which was done under parliamentary sovereignty and our constitution requirements


We're going to see if your interpretation holds any merit or that the interpretation by scientist Rose Slowe does, she is a Research Fellow of a Law School and a barrister after all. We don't know your background, so she holds the upper hand here ;)

In any case, I think you would agree that this needs to be cleared up, preferably before 31st of October in order to test that your interpretation is upheld in court.



Only way your going to know is if she will contest it, she also alluded s to EU constitution so I’m imagine if it were true something would have been said on EU side as well.

Only possible court case I’ve heard I forgot which Minister were going to court over prorogue of parliament, doesn’t mean it’s not happening I just haven’t heard anything
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9558
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:39 am

A101 wrote:
Only way your going to know is if she will contest it, she also alluded s to EU constitution so I’m imagine if it were true something would have been said on EU side as well.

Only possible court case I’ve heard I forgot which Minister were going to court over prorogue of parliament, doesn’t mean it’s not happening I just haven’t heard anything


True, but like I said, it is in everybody's best interest to have this issue mitigated, because if it is true, then someone will go to court at some point and if a conclusion is reached after the UK supposed to have left and the conclusion is that the UK didn't leave at all, things could get a lot messier. So that's why it is in the leavers and remainers best interest to have Parliament become aware of this and debate about it, so sign the petition when it opens up for the UK public.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9558
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:01 am

sabenapilot wrote:
t's getting clearer by the day what the real aim is in the minds of all those who run the show in Brexit Britain:
turn the UK into a US style economy with much lower levels of protection for millions of ordinary Brits when it comes to their social, environmental and consumer rights!
In the minds of those who cooked up Brexit, Brexit wasn't a goal in itself, but rather just a mean to achieve all they had long been dreaming of: taking back control of laws and money was not just out of principle, it was to radically change the way in which they are being used right now and believe me, it's not to spend more on or to offer more rights to working class Britts.
I wonder how many of those who voted for Brexit (when it was presented as a goal in itself) would have voted for the real goal (i.e. to turn the UK into a US style of economy)?


I think you are right and that the aim is worse than the US-style. I think the aim is to turn back the clock 150-175years or so, workers and consumers were insignificant then, much more so than in the US at the moment. And I think that the people whom are behind Brexit - almost all exclusively with a City background - are terrified of new financial regulation which will govern their business and calls for more openness. Furthermore, you have Arron Banks, whom I gather is still under investigation where his political gifts are actually from, established it is not from the UK, so where did it come from? And more importantly, what were their motives to fund the Brexit campaign? Of course, it has been speculated that it came from Russia, which also has a vested interest in weakening the EU and the UK.

I find it interesting if the same referendum would have happened in Switzerland, it would have been declared illegitimate because the public wasn't presented with all the facts and would have automatically triggered a new referendum.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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