User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:30 am

A101 wrote:
Well I cant read the whole article, but the highlighted section you quoted doesn't actually say it is a bad idea. just exactly what we have thought will happen in the short term. nothing actually new here.


Strange, I can read the whole article:

The revelations include:

● The government expects the return of a hard border in Ireland as current plans to avoid widespread checks will prove “unsustainable”; this may spark protests, road blockages and “direct action”

● Logjams caused by months of border delays could “affect fuel distribution”, potentially disrupting the fuel supply in London and the southeast of England

● Up to 85% of lorries using the main Channel crossings “may not be ready” for French customs and could face delays of up to 2 1/2 days

● Significant disruption at ports will last up to three months before the flow of traffic “improves” to 50-70% of the current rate

● Petrol import tariffs, which the government has set at 0%, will “inadvertently” lead to the closure of two oil refineries, 2,000 job losses, widespread strike action and disruptions to fuel availability

● Passenger delays at EU airports, St Pancras, Eurotunnel and Dover

● Medical supplies will “be vulnerable to severe extended delays” as three-quarters of the UK’s medicines enter the country via the main Channel crossings

● The availability of fresh food will be reduced and prices will rise. This could hit “vulnerable groups”

● Potential clashes between UK and European Economic Area fishing vessels amid predictions that 282 ships will sail in British waters illegally on Brexit day

● Protests across the UK, which may “require significant amounts of police resource[s]”

● Rising costs will hit social care, with “smaller providers impacted within 2-3 months and larger providers 4-6 months after exit”

● Gibraltar will face delays of more than four hours at the border with Spain “for at least a few months”, which are likely to “adversely impact” its economy


and

The absence of a clear picture of the UK’s future relationship with the EU has hindered preparations as it “does not provide a concrete situation for third parties to prepare for”, the document states.


And a link to the document: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -797qxkrcm

No project fear, no extreme scenario, just a realistic scenario by crashing out. But, but, but it is all worth it, we will have a remembrance coin and our blue passports.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8622
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:00 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Well, Boris Government seems to think a no deal Brexit is a bad idea too...

Britain faces shortages of fuel, food and medicine, a three-month meltdown at its ports, a hard border with Ireland and rising costs in social care in the event of a no-deal Brexit, according to an unprecedented leak of government documents that lay bare the gaps in contingency planning.....


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -j6ntwvhll

Best regards
Thomas


Well I cant read the whole article, but the highlighted section you quoted doesn't actually say it is a bad idea. just exactly what we have thought will happen in the short term. nothing actually new here.


Exactly, a short inconvenience is acceptable and after that the joys of being sovereign again will be felt by all.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:17 am

seahawk wrote:
will be felt by all.


Indeed it will be felt by all, (and the spoils will go to the view)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Loew
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:37 am

seahawk wrote:
nconvenience is acceptable and after that the joys of being sovereign again will be felt by all.


Exactly. Spontaneous street celebrations are to be expected.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:54 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
par13del wrote:
As long as Germany and France remain in the EU it will survive, they are essentially the founding members of the EU


As a side-note, I think this is widely believed (certainly often stated) but is not actually the case. It's my understanding that the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg are the true founding members as they clubbed together to form the Benelux grouping for their common benefit. It was when France and Germany were invited to participate in something to do with guaranteeing coal supplies, if i recall correctly, that the idea of pan-European cooperation took hold.


I guess we were not taught the same history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:05 am

Olddog wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
par13del wrote:
As long as Germany and France remain in the EU it will survive, they are essentially the founding members of the EU


As a side-note, I think this is widely believed (certainly often stated) but is not actually the case. It's my understanding that the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg are the true founding members as they clubbed together to form the Benelux grouping for their common benefit. It was when France and Germany were invited to participate in something to do with guaranteeing coal supplies, if i recall correctly, that the idea of pan-European cooperation took hold.


I guess we were not taught the same history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community


BeNeLux was founded before the ECSC, so it is kind of true, but not really. Regulating the Coal and steel industry was chosen because regulating those industries makes sure you are regulating the means to wage war and that was the primary drive to create the ECSC, stop waging war with each other, two millennia of conflict on the European continent was enough. It is quite special to live in a time where there hasn't been a war between France, Germany and the UK for 75 years and the EU contributed to this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:09 am

@Dutchy

Don’t know why I can’t see you different link and the other link but I get a about a paragraph or two then goes onto say I can subscribe to read the rest of the article. But anyway I came across this article from the BBC and the emphasis is on could lead to & was not what it expected to happen so in other words it’s a worst case that might happen and not necessarily will happen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-49385263

The dossier reported by the Sunday Times says leaving the EU without a deal could lead to:



&

The government said the document was not what it expected to happen, but outlined scenarios being looked at as part of its no-deal preparations.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8622
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:04 am

Loew wrote:
seahawk wrote:
nconvenience is acceptable and after that the joys of being sovereign again will be felt by all.


Exactly. Spontaneous street celebrations are to be expected.


In the end the debate is pointless, as the Brits voted for Brexit 2 times already and even in a new election a majority prefers the hard Brexit over Corbyn, which is understandable as Corbyn does not even guarantee that there will be no hard Brexit. Imho the hard Brexit will happen, everybody will suffer and in the end it will be better for the EU.
 
olle
Posts: 1164
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:31 am

seahawk wrote:
Loew wrote:
seahawk wrote:
nconvenience is acceptable and after that the joys of being sovereign again will be felt by all.


Exactly. Spontaneous street celebrations are to be expected.


In the end the debate is pointless, as the Brits voted for Brexit 2 times already and even in a new election a majority prefers the hard Brexit over Corbyn, which is understandable as Corbyn does not even guarantee that there will be no hard Brexit. Imho the hard Brexit will happen, everybody will suffer and in the end it will be better for the EU.


3 years ago I felt sorrow for UK leaving EU.

Now as citizen in the EU27 I feel let go on with it.

EU27 and the uk has never got a god merrige and will not have. Let the young generation in uk desire what they want in 25 years, and during that time I suppose that EU will look very diffrerent in a way that UK will never accept.

I think that the second difference is that uk will finally defacto become a USA state in the way that USA will run uk policy even more then today.

EU27 grow closer to Asia with the opportunity with raillinks that finally being set up. These connections will mean that EU china trade will increase even more with high value products increasing beeing traded between the regions compared with today. Moving trade from chip and airflight to road and rail will change the way business being made.

Of some reasons uk has not succeded in its trade with china and Asia as other part of Europe. We will see if Brexit change this or if the trends that Germany and other nothern EU countries continue having more success in it relationships then uk.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1714
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

As a side-note, I think this is widely believed (certainly often stated) but is not actually the case. It's my understanding that the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg are the true founding members as they clubbed together to form the Benelux grouping for their common benefit. It was when France and Germany were invited to participate in something to do with guaranteeing coal supplies, if i recall correctly, that the idea of pan-European cooperation took hold.


I guess we were not taught the same history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community


BeNeLux was founded before the ECSC, so it is kind of true, but not really. Regulating the Coal and steel industry was chosen because regulating those industries makes sure you are regulating the means to wage war and that was the primary drive to create the ECSC, stop waging war with each other, two millennia of conflict on the European continent was enough. It is quite special to live in a time where there hasn't been a war between France, Germany and the UK for 75 years and the EU contributed to this.


Well if we're going to throw Wikipedia links at each other ( ;) ), the Benelux page does rather back up what I had heard twenty or thirty years ago:

The three countries therefore foreshadowed and provided the model for future European integration, such as the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Economic Community (EEC). The three partners continue to play this pioneering role. They also launched the Schengen process


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelux

(Having lived in France, it doesn't really surprise me that the French would think/say that they proposed it first...)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:01 pm

Hum, the whole Benelux is roughly half the size of France alone and was setup just to try to negotiate with France and Germany on a more balanced situation. It was not a future EU and if the idea had been in the air, I bet the UK would have tried to kill it since 1944.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:41 pm

Let's leave the BeNeLux at aside, it is not really that important. And certainly not in relation to the UK and its Brexit. BeNeLux is a more internal thing and a wish to work more closely together, more close than the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8921
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:44 pm

Olddog wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
par13del wrote:
As long as Germany and France remain in the EU it will survive, they are essentially the founding members of the EU


As a side-note, I think this is widely believed (certainly often stated) but is not actually the case. It's my understanding that the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg are the true founding members as they clubbed together to form the Benelux grouping for their common benefit. It was when France and Germany were invited to participate in something to do with guaranteeing coal supplies, if i recall correctly, that the idea of pan-European cooperation took hold.


I guess we were not taught the same history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community

Hence the word essentially.....but we digress...
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6071
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:22 pm

Dogman wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

No need for Hitler. Letting Napoleon wannabe Macron blabber about his dellusions of "federal" EU is sufficient enough.


What's so bad about it?


Because Macron's ideas are just same ol' gaullist, etatist crap and dellusions of French grandeur... this time projected onto the whole EU which is considered a French imperial project, where Germans pay for it and everyone else has a great opportunity to shut up. Those from medium and small size EU member states supporting Macron are only supporting their own marginalization.

Please note that whenever Macron speaks of Europe he means the EU by which he really means France. He is by far the biggest nationalist and chauvinist in today's EU, except he uses "Europe" instead of France and intelectually lazy media let him get away with it.

Gaullists believe that France's track record of an notoriously unreliable ally Is actually a good thing as it guarantee its national independence without resorting to allies whose interests might not coincide with those of France. Those cheering for "EU Army" and doing Putin's bidding by tearing NATO apart from within (paging Germany in particular) should really pay attention to this, as the EU Army won't have any semblance of collective defense treaty.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:59 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Because Macron's ideas are just same ol' gaullist, etatist crap and dellusions of French grandeur... this time projected onto the whole EU which is considered a French imperial project, where Germans pay for it and everyone else has a great opportunity to shut up. Those from medium and small size EU member states supporting Macron are only supporting their own marginalization.

Please note that whenever Macron speaks of Europe he means the EU by which he really means France. He is by far the biggest nationalist and chauvinist in today's EU, except he uses "Europe" instead of France and intelectually lazy media let him get away with it.

Gaullists believe that France's track record of an notoriously unreliable ally Is actually a good thing as it guarantee its national independence without resorting to allies whose interests might not coincide with those of France. Those cheering for "EU Army" and doing Putin's bidding by tearing NATO apart from within (paging Germany in particular) should really pay attention to this, as the EU Army won't have any semblance of collective defense treaty.


A lot of assumptions there, mate.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6071
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:11 pm

Such as?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:20 pm

Everything about Macron, small countries etc. But we digress from the Brexit problem. And the way the Brits shoot themselves in the foot.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dogman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:43 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Those from medium and small size EU member states supporting Macron are only supporting their own marginalization.


I am not going to argue with you about Macron. You seem to have some sort of personal animosity towards him, and I am not willing to take your words for granted. But I can tell you this. Small and medium countries will always have less influence than the large countries. And that does not depend on the political system. But within some common system, where they are all represented, small and medium countries have more power. They have rights to vote, they can form alliances with other small countries, and get their policies implemented. On their own small and medium countries are weak. I live in Canada, province of Saskatchewan. It's a territory almost twice as large as Germany, but with only 1 million people living here. We have less influence than Ontario, or Alberta within Canada, because we have less MPs. But we can ally with other provinces, including alliances against the federal government. The last example: when Canada decide to legalize marijuana the federal government suggested initially that the taxation profit will be split 50/50 between the federal government and provinces. But the provinces got together and won a better deal for themselves: 25/75. Could Saskatchewan do it alone? I don't think so. Not to mention the dealings with other countries: Canada as a country can get a much better deal than Saskatchewan alone. I believe that Europe in the end will come to some form of federal state, and I think it will be good for every country involved.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 8921
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:25 pm

Dogman wrote:
I believe that Europe in the end will come to some form of federal state, and I think it will be good for every country involved.

So you see the USA, Canada and Mexico getting together to have a size to match the EU to get fair trade, you do know that the EU already claim that their economic power is greater than the USA much less Canada, or is size only relative up to a certain amount then it does not matter?
 
Dogman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:36 pm

par13del wrote:
Dogman wrote:
I believe that Europe in the end will come to some form of federal state, and I think it will be good for every country involved.

So you see the USA, Canada and Mexico getting together to have a size to match the EU to get fair trade, you do know that the EU already claim that their economic power is greater than the USA much less Canada, or is size only relative up to a certain amount then it does not matter?

The USA, Canada and Mexico are already have a very tight economic cooperation. But as for the future integration, to me it's not as obvious as in Europe. It all depends on the USA. I believe that they are approaching an end in terms of their current economic and sociological paradigm, and will chose a different development direction. If it would be towards a more socially just society, then a closer integration is possible, at least with Canada. If they continue with more trumpinization then God save us, Canada will suffer.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:17 am

A101 wrote:
Your missing the point, Churchill had taken the country thru it’s most darkest days

The total difference is in the fact that Boris is actively taking the country into its darkest days ahead on purpose without any external forces pushing it there whatsoever!

Churchill back then reacted to an external threat – Boris Johnson is the threat himself!

and years and he was the right man for the job and lost the next GE in 45, Johnson is doing the same he is putting certainty into the process so everyone knows where the UK stands. At the end of the day he is doing everything the government has asked look at the Brady amendment and the EU Withdrawl Act 2019. He doesn’t want to leave without a deal but knows there has to be a limit to the continuation of uncertainty over Brexit, if you can’t see that then there is no hope of any deal between the EU UK now or in the future and if that’s the way it has to be then it has to be.

Hook, line and sinker.

A101 wrote:
Can you point to the moment where Boris Johnson started this war and what Influence he used and at what point do you believe the war started?

Early 1989 when he was installed as the Daily Telegraph's Brussels correspondent after already having been fired from the Times for lying – the DT knew what they got with him, but they just didn't care because his lies sold well, so they chose to sell blatant lies.

He has used blatantly and shamelessly lying about the EU and the UK's relation to the EU to build his career, not caring in the slightest about the damage mostly to the UK he was doing, and that career path culminated for him in the Brexit referendum and now in becoming PM – all on the back of his lies and deceptions related to the EU.

As long as the UK public laps it up, he's golden.
Last edited by Klaus on Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21256
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:31 am

par13del wrote:
Strange that since the EU was founded various US presidents and congressional leaders have not done more to sabotage the EU but as soon as Donald Trump shows up the entire USA is trying to kill off the EU.

That is a weird distortion of everything that's actually been said.

The EU-hostile streak in US politics has existed for at least as long as the EU itself. It is mostly at home on the right fringe of the Republican Party and it has always seeped into official US policies when Republican presidents allowed it to fester to that point – Reagan was the first where that became evident to some degree, then much more aggressively under GWB and now frothing-at-the-mouth-rabidly under Trump.

Bush senior, on the other hand, pursued a much more constructive relationship with Europe, working together with european institutions instead of trying to undermine them, as did the Democratic presidents.

The USA is now experiencing the stage 3 cancer of its extreme right fringe taking over government, and the hostile stance towards the EU is just one of many even more disturbing symptoms.

As for the Democrats versus Republicans supporting the GFA, in the USA it is the Irish community pulling the strings, who the representatives are in their area is secondary, it could be either party.

That is only on top of the very much existing commitment to the actual peace process in Ireland – maybe you're just too far removed from the political circles where such things are actually valued any more to notice.
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:34 am

Wow I knew you had a dislike for BJ but this whole tirade shows how much contempt you have for him.

Klaus wrote:
The total difference is in the fact that Boris is actively taking the country into its darkest days ahead on purpose without any external forces pushing it there whatsoever!

Churchill back then reacted to an external threat – Boris Johnson is the threat himself!



Nope, BJ didn’t start the process for the referenda that was all Cameron. BJ is only trying to clean up the mess left by Cameron & May


Klaus wrote:

Hook, line and sinker.


What? doing exactly what parliment expects and they have made it LAW

Klaus wrote:

Early 1989 when he was installed as the Daily Telegraph's Brussels correspondent after already having been fired from the Times for lying – the DT knew what they got with him, but they just didn't care because his lies sold well, so they chose to sell blatant lies.

He has used blatantly and shamelessly lying about the EU and the UK's relation to the EU to build his career, not caring in the slightest about the damage mostly to the UK he was doing, and that career path culminated for him in the Brexit referendum and now in becoming PM – all on the back of his lies and deceptions related to the EU.

As long as the UK public laps it up, he's golden


What’s that got to do with the current situation, but geez he must have a good crystal ball to know back then he would one day become PM and withdraw the UK from the EU.


But I suggest if you really want to look at the genesis of Brexit you should go back to Norman Lamont.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:31 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Churchill back then reacted to an external threat – Boris Johnson is the threat himself!


Nope, BJ didn’t start the process for the referenda that was all Cameron. BJ is only trying to clean up the mess left by Cameron & May



Image

Johnson might not have started the referendum, but he did advocate Brexit with lies. One might even argue that he is partly responsible for creating a toxic environment about the EU with blunted lies.
Johnson cleaning up a mess, that would be a first for him. So no, he will create a mess and others will clean it up in the next ten years or so.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17385
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:16 am

A101 wrote:
BJ is only trying to clean up the mess left by Cameron & May


This may actually be the funniest thing I've ever read! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Johnson is only in it for himself and his rich cronies like Rees-Mogg. Do you really think Johnson gives a shit about a struggling family somewhere in the NE of England or Scotland or NI? If you do, I have a bridge you might be interested in.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Churchill back then reacted to an external threat – Boris Johnson is the threat himself!


Nope, BJ didn’t start the process for the referenda that was all Cameron. BJ is only trying to clean up the mess left by Cameron & May



Image

Johnson might not have started the referendum, but he did advocate Brexit with lies. One might even argue that he is partly responsible for creating a toxic environment about the EU with blunted lies.
Johnson cleaning up a mess, that would be a first for him. So no, he will create a mess and others will clean it up in the next ten years or so.


Withdrawal was official Labour policy for much of the 1980’s, Lamont brought it up in Conservative conference of 94 exiting the EEC/EU has been on the agenda for some time Cameron has been exposed to this thing whilst a special advisor under Lamont, all the while Johnson had no political influence unlike the protagonist like David Cameron, Daniel Hannan and Douglas Carswell whom were pushing and objecting to the EU. So whilst Johnson campaigned for Brexit he certainly is not the architect of Brexit. So no matter your personal views or contempt on Johnson so far he’s the only one committed to honouring the 2016 referenda as laid down under parliamentary sovereignty
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:40 am

scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
BJ is only trying to clean up the mess left by Cameron & May


This may actually be the funniest thing I've ever read! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Johnson is only in it for himself and his rich cronies like Rees-Mogg. Do you really think Johnson gives a shit about a struggling family somewhere in the NE of England or Scotland or NI? If you do, I have a bridge you might be interested in.



And the EU isn’t the same lots money riding on the UK staying in for their own interests. At this level there’s allway big money involved
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:41 am

A101 wrote:
Withdrawal was official Labour policy for much of the 1980’s, Lamont brought it up in Conservative conference of 94 exiting the EEC/EU has been on the agenda for some time Cameron has been exposed to this thing whilst a special advisor under Lamont, all the while Johnson had no political influence unlike the protagonist like David Cameron, Daniel Hannan and Douglas Carswell whom were pushing and objecting to the EU. So whilst Johnson campaigned for Brexit he certainly is not the architect of Brexit. So no matter your personal views or contempt on Johnson so far he’s the only one committed to honouring the 2016 referenda as laid down under parliamentary sovereignty


Please stop framing as the 2016 referendum as a referendum for a Hard Brexit, it wasn't and it is plain ridiculous. If you want that, fine, then you have the peoples vote.
As for Johnson, a historical perspective might be quite interesting, but not very helpful for moving forward at this critical juncture in Brittish politics. Alexander Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister and was one of the protagonists of a Brexit, mind you not a hard Brexit, but a Brexit. Later on, he moved towards the hard Brexit stand. So he can now clean up his own mess, how, so unlike mr. Johnson.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:05 am

Dutchy wrote:

Please stop framing as the 2016 referendum as a referendum for a Hard Brexit, it wasn't and it is plain ridiculous. If you want that, fine, then you have the peoples vote.


The referenda was framed as we are leaving the EU, David Cameron as PM stated it was leaving the CU/SM as per the pamphlet sent to households across the UK in which he stated that the result will be implemented in which will have to be negotiated with the EU. Article 50 shows a clear process and the UK (Johnson) is adhering to that process. Just because you don’t like the result we should ignore the process


Dutchy wrote:
As for Johnson, a historical perspective might be quite interesting, but not very helpful for moving forward at this critical juncture in Brittish politics. Alexander Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister and was one of the protagonists of a Brexit, mind you not a hard Brexit, but a Brexit. Later on, he moved towards the hard Brexit stand. So he can now clean up his own mess, how, so unlike mr. Johnson.


The historical context is for those wanting there own version of history to whom they want to blame.

The current mess as you put it was made by Theresa May by pushing a bad deal onto parliament and it recognised was not in the interests of the UK, and in which Johnson is finishing the process under EU withdrawal Act 2019 and Article 50 nothing more nothing less.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10800
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:29 am

Dogman wrote:
Small and medium countries will always have less influence than the large countries. And that does not depend on the political system. .


And the EU is set up quite deliberately for the small and medium members punching above their weight class...

Germany has 96 MEPs representing 82 Million people: ~850k people per Seat
The Czech republic has 21 MEPs representing 10.5 million people: ~500k people per Seat
Latvia has 8 MEPs representing 2 Million people: ~250k people per Seat

The European Commission has one Representative of each Member, regardless of Size.... too pass 55% of the members have to vote Aye, making sure the big members can not steamroll the small ones, representing 65% of the people, making sure the small ones can not steamroll the big ones.....

The EU decision making system is in effect what you get after a good hard look at the US system and improving its shortcomings....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
AeroVega
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Withdrawal was official Labour policy for much of the 1980’s, Lamont brought it up in Conservative conference of 94 exiting the EEC/EU has been on the agenda for some time Cameron has been exposed to this thing whilst a special advisor under Lamont, all the while Johnson had no political influence unlike the protagonist like David Cameron, Daniel Hannan and Douglas Carswell whom were pushing and objecting to the EU. So whilst Johnson campaigned for Brexit he certainly is not the architect of Brexit. So no matter your personal views or contempt on Johnson so far he’s the only one committed to honouring the 2016 referenda as laid down under parliamentary sovereignty


Please stop framing as the 2016 referendum as a referendum for a Hard Brexit, it wasn't and it is plain ridiculous. If you want that, fine, then you have the peoples vote.
As for Johnson, a historical perspective might be quite interesting, but not very helpful for moving forward at this critical juncture in Brittish politics. Alexander Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister and was one of the protagonists of a Brexit, mind you not a hard Brexit, but a Brexit. Later on, he moved towards the hard Brexit stand. So he can now clean up his own mess, how, so unlike mr. Johnson.


It is true that the 2016 was not a referendum for a Hard Brexit but just "Brexit".

Now consider that the EU is offering the UK the following options after invoking Article 50:
(a) Stay in the EU (revoke Article 50)
(b) Stay in the EU in all but name (accept the Withdrawal Agreement)
(c) Exit the EU without a deal (Hard Brexit)

The first two are not "Brexit". So the only "Brexit" that the EU offers is Hard Brexit.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:29 pm

AeroVega wrote:
It is true that the 2016 was not a referendum for a Hard Brexit but just "Brexit".

Now consider that the EU is offering the UK the following options after invoking Article 50:
(a) Stay in the EU (revoke Article 50)
(b) Stay in the EU in all but name (accept the Withdrawal Agreement)
(c) Exit the EU without a deal (Hard Brexit)

The first two are not "Brexit". So the only "Brexit" that the EU offers is Hard Brexit.


That is quite misleading of you, sir. Options A and C, sure, that is the choice of the UK, not offered by the EU, those two can be done by the UK if they want, the EU can't stop them, neither does it wants to. Now for anything else, there needs to be a negotiation and that was done as well, hence it is called the Withdraw Agreement and not the more subtle name of withdraw dictate, which you like to frame it.
The withdraw agreement is not Brexit in name only, the withdraw agreement is an agreement so we can enter the next phase, actually negotiating an agreement. Given that the resident Brexiteers say it is so easy to come up with a border plan to keep the border open - e.g. honer the Good Friday Agreement -, the withdraw agreement shouldnot be a problem to sign.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:45 pm

That's the problem for some that seem to be unable to understand that the WA is already a compromise between the Eu rules and the UK red lines, and ask for the EU to compromise again....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14252
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:13 pm

I have wondered in the past as to Brexit if it is a huge plot of 'The City' financial services and banking industry in the UK to reject and prevent new EU regulations from affecting the industry, especially the UK's extensive tax, investment and corporate regulation dodging territories like Jersey, Bahamas, Bermuda and so on.

They stirred up long simmering resentment by a plurality of UK citizens and voters about the EU, growing issues of income inequity in the UK, adding in the work migration of EU citizens, as well as anti-Muslim and anti-Immigrant feelings. So, they basically bribe the right Tories and Labour in name only MP's, and get the poorly worded plebiscite paying on those fears of the masses and it passes. As they planned, they move some UK jobs to the EU to cover their financial butts and not lose those profits, no they can further bribe MP's into really loosening up on regulations and do massive tax cuts. They also get to keep and likely expand the haven territories the UK has. This has a parallel in the USA with Trump as to how it works with massive deregulation of financial businesses and massive tax cuts to corporations and the rich, using populist racism, anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim attitudes to win in our system.

As the old saying goes, follow the money.
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:

That is quite misleading of you, sir. Options A and C, sure, that is the choice of the UK, not offered by the EU, those two can be done by the UK if they want, the EU can't stop them, neither does it wants to. Now for anything else, there needs to be a negotiation and that was done as well, hence it is called the Withdraw Agreement and not the more subtle name of withdraw dictate, which you like to frame it.
The withdraw agreement is not Brexit in name only, the withdraw agreement is an agreement so we can enter the next phase, actually negotiating an agreement. Given that the resident Brexiteers say it is so easy to come up with a border plan to keep the border open - e.g. honer the Good Friday Agreement -, the withdraw agreement shouldnot be a problem to sign.



Not misleading at all in each of the options are the reality of the situation,
Option A: is a ruling by the ECJ and is in the very best interests of the EU,
Option B: is in the interests of the EU as it is a BRINO and the has the very worst implications for the UK in the event the backstop provision is triggered,
Option C:is the only current option available to the UK the honours the 2016 referenda.

The Irish border as it stands is an electronic border now for VAT excise and goods declarations, if the EU was to be fair dinkum in moving forward to the future relationship it would remove the obstacles (backstop) and make it part of the withdrawal agreement that the British Irish council puts it to a vote that the island of Ireland remains in the standards of the EU but with two distinct regulatory regimes. Direct trade from the EU to NI or vice versa is dealt with as to whatever future agreement between the UK/EU all internal trade carries on as is with the electronic border continuing as is charging VAT excise goods declarations and any future tariffs via electronic means.

The UK from the start is about preserving the GFA , the UK leaves the EU with whatever future relationship and the British Irish Council votes whether to remain in the standards of the EU for Northern Ireland but remains within the regulatory control of the UK, if the council decides not to stay in the same standards then a customs border will be erected all this, this leaves the border question to the people of Northern Island and honours the GFA and the results from the 2016 referenda
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3081
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:14 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I have wondered in the past as to Brexit if it is a huge plot of 'The City' financial services and banking industry in the UK to reject and prevent new EU regulations from affecting the industry, especially the UK's extensive tax, investment and corporate regulation dodging territories like Jersey, Bahamas, Bermuda and so on.

They stirred up long simmering resentment by a plurality of UK citizens and voters about the EU, growing issues of income inequity in the UK, adding in the work migration of EU citizens, as well as anti-Muslim and anti-Immigrant feelings. So, they basically bribe the right Tories and Labour in name only MP's, and get the poorly worded plebiscite paying on those fears of the masses and it passes. As they planned, they move some UK jobs to the EU to cover their financial butts and not lose those profits, no they can further bribe MP's into really loosening up on regulations and do massive tax cuts. They also get to keep and likely expand the haven territories the UK has. This has a parallel in the USA with Trump as to how it works with massive deregulation of financial businesses and massive tax cuts to corporations and the rich, using populist racism, anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim attitudes to win in our system.

As the old saying goes, follow the money.


And they will smuggle their own and the world's unregulated and untariffed goods into the EU via the electronic border between NI and ROI. Sounds like a winner to me. LOL
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
LJ
Posts: 4812
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:17 pm

ltbewr wrote:
They also get to keep and likely expand the haven territories the UK has.


Probably not the case as this would cut them off from the EU and US. Tax havens have a big problem as they're chased by both the EU and US governments. The British tax havens are probably not amused that the UK leaves the EU as it was the UK together with some other EU countries, which prevented some fierce anti-tax haven regulation in the EU. Hence also why the City is pro-EU.

ltbewr wrote:
As they planned, they move some UK jobs to the EU to cover their financial butts and not lose those profits


It's a legal necessity to move parts of their business as the EUR clearing cannot be done in the UK after March 2020.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3305
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:55 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is quite misleading of you, sir. Options A and C, sure, that is the choice of the UK, not offered by the EU, those two can be done by the UK if they want, the EU can't stop them, neither does it wants to. Now for anything else, there needs to be a negotiation and that was done as well, hence it is called the Withdraw Agreement and not the more subtle name of withdraw dictate, which you like to frame it.
The withdraw agreement is not Brexit in name only, the withdraw agreement is an agreement so we can enter the next phase, actually negotiating an agreement. Given that the resident Brexiteers say it is so easy to come up with a border plan to keep the border open - e.g. honer the Good Friday Agreement -, the withdraw agreement shouldnot be a problem to sign.



Not misleading at all in each of the options are the reality of the situation,
Option A: is a ruling by the ECJ and is in the very best interests of the EU,
Option B: is in the interests of the EU as it is a BRINO and the has the very worst implications for the UK in the event the backstop provision is triggered,
Option C:is the only current option available to the UK the honours the 2016 referenda.

The Irish border as it stands is an electronic border now for VAT excise and goods declarations, if the EU was to be fair dinkum in moving forward to the future relationship it would remove the obstacles (backstop)


Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:04 pm

JJJ wrote:


Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The electronic border can work and already does work there is now a ANPRS system on the main cross border route now. it’s just that the ROI/EU do not want any infrastructure at the border and put the kibosh on it and then that triggers the backstop forceing the UK into a BRINO
 
AeroVega
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:05 pm

JJJ wrote:
Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The backstop is an obstacle because it prevents the UK from unilaterally ending it. It does not make any sense for the UK to trigger Article 50 and then sign away their right to stop following EU regulations.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:00 pm

AeroVega wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The backstop is an obstacle because it prevents the UK from unilaterally ending it. It does not make any sense for the UK to trigger Article 50 and then sign away their right to stop following EU regulations.


I'll make you a deal then, thee UK accepts the backstop, the EU accepts that the UK can break with the backstop, but the consequence is that the UK leaves without a deal.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:08 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:


Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The electronic border can work and already does work there is now a ANPRS system on the main cross border route now. it’s just that the ROI/EU do not want any infrastructure at the border and put the kibosh on it and then that triggers the backstop forceing the UK into a BRINO


Really, haven't you learnt anything in the past six(!) threats and the 50plus pages? You don't want to learn or you are too stupid to learn, I don't think it is the latter. Now you claim the system is already in place, last time you claimed it could be there in 1,5mounths. What is it, you are being inconsistent in your own reasoning. The reasoning from me and others has been consistent: you cannot 100% do this electronically, no way, has never been done anywhere. You cannot put it off on the EU, that is just plain stupid and just shows you don't understand the problem.

It is so hypocritical, Brexit is all about getting back control and in order for the Brexiteers to have that illusion you want the EU to give up border control.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dogman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:

I'll make you a deal then, thee UK accepts the backstop, the EU accepts that the UK can break with the backstop, but the consequence is that the UK leaves without a deal.


Not a good idea. Once you put a system in place it would be very hard to abandon it. The Brexit itself is a good example of that. That's why the Tories wanted to to negotiate the FTA at the same time as WA, hoping that at the end of the transition period the EU would be so invested in the FTA that it would compromise on the Irish border issue and may be on something else.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9826
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:21 pm

Dogman wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I'll make you a deal then, thee UK accepts the backstop, the EU accepts that the UK can break with the backstop, but the consequence is that the UK leaves without a deal.


Not a good idea. Once you put a system in place it would be very hard to abandon it. The Brexit itself is a good example of that. That's why the Tories wanted to to negotiate the FTA at the same time as WA, hoping that at the end of the transition period the EU would be so invested in the FTA that it would compromise on the Irish border issue and may be on something else.


You might be right there. I might be a prime example, I am all for the EU, all for protecting the people whom going to suffer the most from Brexit, but I can't help to think, if the Brits truly don't want to be helped, let them have it, no-deal and getting back in line to get a deal from the EU. This is what they want, apparently, that is what they will get. No more mister nice guy from the EU. Eventually, there are consequences and we are getting to that point. It was, it still is and it will be on the Brits to decide their future, but choices have consequences and they need to accept those as well.

It is stupid, it is not in their interest, it is borderline dumb, but in the end, you need to let go of a heroin addict, no matter how much you love them, or because you love them even. If a heroin addict wants to self destruct, there is no way you could prevent it. Exactly the same with Brexit, the Brexitremist won, they control it now, if the Brits don't want to self destruct, they need to find a way for that not happening. The EU can't prevent it, it is up to the Brits, but don't expect the EU to hold the hand of the Brits on their way down.

Hey, perhaps drank too much beer to make a rational post, but at least it is honest........................
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8314
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:23 pm

It’s as if we live in a circular argument here. 56 pages of written diarrhoea and nobody the wiser about what will happen and the same arguments about a single camera on a single road being proof that an electronic border works.

It’s time to move on. Let the UK be stuck in 1965.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:


Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The electronic border can work and already does work there is now a ANPRS system on the main cross border route now. it’s just that the ROI/EU do not want any infrastructure at the border and put the kibosh on it and then that triggers the backstop forceing the UK into a BRINO


Really, haven't you learnt anything in the past six(!) threats and the 50plus pages? You don't want to learn or you are too stupid to learn, I don't think it is the latter. Now you claim the system is already in place, last time you claimed it could be there in 1,5mounths. What is it, you are being inconsistent in your own reasoning. The reasoning from me and others has been consistent: you cannot 100% do this electronically, no way, has never been done anywhere. You cannot put it off on the EU, that is just plain stupid and just shows you don't understand the problem.

It is so hypocritical, Brexit is all about getting back control and in order for the Brexiteers to have that illusion you want the EU to give up border control.



That’s a bit rich if you can’t take the time to learn what the border currently is that’s not my problem. Goods movement still need to be tracked within the EU and there is reporting system which is electronic not much different.


And as I said Irish border is already electronic and had been for a number of years and I posted a video not long ago of Automatic Number Plate Recognition System at the border on the M1. The ROI/EU is opposed to any new infrastructure and that automatically triggers the backstop
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6956
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:16 am

A101 wrote:
And as I said Irish border is already electronic and had been for a number of years and I posted a video not long ago of Automatic Number Plate Recognition System at the border on the M1.

Why do you mention number plate scanners?

All you need is automatic cargo scanners, automatic customs certificate scanners, and automatic road block in case of recognition of illegal cargo or incomplete certificate, bad credit rating of customs client etc.

Forget about number plate scanners. Number plate scanning may sometimes be useful for hunting bank robbers or terrorists, but according to Backstop it is irrelevant. Totally irrelevant to the EU at least as long as RoI isn't a Schengen member.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8622
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:48 am

Funny, that the debate here is as circular as real life politics. I am just wondering if this is good or bad.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10800
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:09 am

AeroVega wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Withdrawal was official Labour policy for much of the 1980’s, Lamont brought it up in Conservative conference of 94 exiting the EEC/EU has been on the agenda for some time Cameron has been exposed to this thing whilst a special advisor under Lamont, all the while Johnson had no political influence unlike the protagonist like David Cameron, Daniel Hannan and Douglas Carswell whom were pushing and objecting to the EU. So whilst Johnson campaigned for Brexit he certainly is not the architect of Brexit. So no matter your personal views or contempt on Johnson so far he’s the only one committed to honouring the 2016 referenda as laid down under parliamentary sovereignty


Please stop framing as the 2016 referendum as a referendum for a Hard Brexit, it wasn't and it is plain ridiculous. If you want that, fine, then you have the peoples vote.
As for Johnson, a historical perspective might be quite interesting, but not very helpful for moving forward at this critical juncture in Brittish politics. Alexander Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister and was one of the protagonists of a Brexit, mind you not a hard Brexit, but a Brexit. Later on, he moved towards the hard Brexit stand. So he can now clean up his own mess, how, so unlike mr. Johnson.


It is true that the 2016 was not a referendum for a Hard Brexit but just "Brexit".

Now consider that the EU is offering the UK the following options after invoking Article 50:
(a) Stay in the EU (revoke Article 50)
(b) Stay in the EU in all but name (accept the Withdrawal Agreement)
(c) Exit the EU without a deal (Hard Brexit)

The first two are not "Brexit". So the only "Brexit" that the EU offers is Hard Brexit.


You forgot a few options.

d) Stay in the Common market and customs union
e) Stay in the customs union.

BRINO as a term didn´t exist before the referendum, so b) is pointless.

And do i really need to dig out videoclips of the leaders of the pack prmissing that northing will chance with regards to the common market and praising the Norway model?

Hard Brexit was not even remotely on the table before the referendum, the leave campaign worked very hard (=lied) to get people to believe that Brexit will essentially not have any effect on their lives whatsoever.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:32 am

tommy1808 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Please stop framing as the 2016 referendum as a referendum for a Hard Brexit, it wasn't and it is plain ridiculous. If you want that, fine, then you have the peoples vote.
As for Johnson, a historical perspective might be quite interesting, but not very helpful for moving forward at this critical juncture in Brittish politics. Alexander Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister and was one of the protagonists of a Brexit, mind you not a hard Brexit, but a Brexit. Later on, he moved towards the hard Brexit stand. So he can now clean up his own mess, how, so unlike mr. Johnson.


It is true that the 2016 was not a referendum for a Hard Brexit but just "Brexit".

Now consider that the EU is offering the UK the following options after invoking Article 50:
(a) Stay in the EU (revoke Article 50)
(b) Stay in the EU in all but name (accept the Withdrawal Agreement)
(c) Exit the EU without a deal (Hard Brexit)

The first two are not "Brexit". So the only "Brexit" that the EU offers is Hard Brexit.


You forgot a few options.

d) Stay in the Common market and customs union
e) Stay in the customs union.

BRINO as a term didn´t exist before the referendum, so b) is pointless.

And do i really need to dig out videoclips of the leaders of the pack prmissing that northing will chance with regards to the common market and praising the Norway model?

Hard Brexit was not even remotely on the table before the referendum, the leave campaign worked very hard (=lied) to get people to believe that Brexit will essentially not have any effect on their lives whatsoever.

best regards
Thomas



The current state of play is due to A50 process, and parliament not being a rubber stamp for the withdrawal agreement


Talking about Norway or Canada plus during the campaign is just that the future relationship was always going to have to be negotiated and I can’t see the point in doing the Norway plus model as it defeats the purpose of leaving the EU

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, aerlingus747, ltbewr, TSS and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos