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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:49 am

Brexit always meant hard Brexit. You can not leave and stay in for the most parts. And as the campaign promised full control of the borders and full control of legislation, it was obvious that only the true Brexit can deliver this.

And say what you want, but Boris delivers exactly what the people want: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49393556 No more free movement by the end of the 31st October.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:16 am

tommy1808 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Please stop framing as the 2016 referendum as a referendum for a Hard Brexit, it wasn't and it is plain ridiculous. If you want that, fine, then you have the peoples vote.
As for Johnson, a historical perspective might be quite interesting, but not very helpful for moving forward at this critical juncture in Brittish politics. Alexander Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister and was one of the protagonists of a Brexit, mind you not a hard Brexit, but a Brexit. Later on, he moved towards the hard Brexit stand. So he can now clean up his own mess, how, so unlike mr. Johnson.


It is true that the 2016 was not a referendum for a Hard Brexit but just "Brexit".

Now consider that the EU is offering the UK the following options after invoking Article 50:
(a) Stay in the EU (revoke Article 50)
(b) Stay in the EU in all but name (accept the Withdrawal Agreement)
(c) Exit the EU without a deal (Hard Brexit)

The first two are not "Brexit". So the only "Brexit" that the EU offers is Hard Brexit.


You forgot a few options.

d) Stay in the Common market and customs union
e) Stay in the customs union.


Nope. Those options are only available after the UK has accepted the WA. Right now it is just those three.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The backstop is an obstacle because it prevents the UK from unilaterally ending it. It does not make any sense for the UK to trigger Article 50 and then sign away their right to stop following EU regulations.


I'll make you a deal then, thee UK accepts the backstop, the EU accepts that the UK can break with the backstop, but the consequence is that the UK leaves without a deal.


I would almost agree, except that I think it is in the interest of both the EU and the UK to try to hammer out a deal. So I would prefer a time limited backstop where both sides make a best effort to solve the Irish border issue. If no deal is reached after, say, five years, then Hard Brexit it is. Of course, if the EU is not willing to work with the UK to find an alternative solution for the Irish border problem then we might as well have the Hard Brexit on October 31st.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:36 am

seahawk wrote:
Brexit always meant hard Brexit. You can not leave and stay in for the most parts. And as the campaign promised full control of the borders and full control of legislation, it was obvious that only the true Brexit can deliver this.

And say what you want, but Boris delivers exactly what the people want: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49393556 No more free movement by the end of the 31st October.


could you please show were politicians ask people to vote for a hard Brexit, Farage and everybody else on the Brexit front campaigned for a deal Brexit, even the Norway or Swiss model, not remotely a hard Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:39 am

AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

It is true that the 2016 was not a referendum for a Hard Brexit but just "Brexit".

Now consider that the EU is offering the UK the following options after invoking Article 50:
(a) Stay in the EU (revoke Article 50)
(b) Stay in the EU in all but name (accept the Withdrawal Agreement)
(c) Exit the EU without a deal (Hard Brexit)

The first two are not "Brexit". So the only "Brexit" that the EU offers is Hard Brexit.


You forgot a few options.

d) Stay in the Common market and customs union
e) Stay in the customs union.


Nope. Those options are only available after the UK has accepted the WA. Right now it is just those three.


"Right now" is irrelevant, no one voted on what is right now, people voted on what was back then. A hard Brexit was not on the menu before the referendum, the options lauded by the leave campaign before the referendum didn´t need any backstop. Of course that was a lie, but Nigel Farange is even on record admitting that the leave campaign chose to not tell the truth about Brexit because they would other have lost the vote. So your statement is obviously wrong. Those options have only been made impossible by the UK governments red lines, that the UK chose to have, and chose to have AFTER the referendum.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:40 am

AeroVega wrote:
I would almost agree, except that I think it is in the interest of both the EU and the UK to try to hammer out a deal. So I would prefer a time limited backstop where both sides make a best effort to solve the Irish border issue. If no deal is reached after, say, five years, then Hard Brexit it is. Of course, if the EU is not willing to work with the UK to find an alternative solution for the Irish border problem then we might as well have the Hard Brexit on October 31st.


The EU is willing to work out a deal, they even go much further than with other countries, the UK wants to keep its cake and eat it. The fundamental pillars of the EU need to stay in place, those are not up for grassed.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:19 am

If you think that the EU will negotiate a deal that does not firstly protect EU interest but more UK ones, you are dreaming of unicorns.
The UK is roughly 10 % the size of the EU so negotiation will reflect that.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:24 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Right now" is irrelevant, no one voted on what is right now, people voted on what was back then



Wrong, right now is highly relevant, it was common knowledge that the future relationship had to be negotiated. David Cameron the Prime Minister said it enough right up to polling day.

tommy1808 wrote:

A hard Brexit was not on the menu before the referendum, the options lauded by the leave campaign before the referendum didn´t need any backstop.


No one mentioned a BRINO either but that’s what Theresa May passed off as leaving the EU

tommy1808 wrote:

but Nigel Farange is even on record admitting that the leave campaign chose to not tell the truth about Brexit because they would other have lost the vote.



That one’s new to me, do you have a source on that. Would be interesting to read.


tommy1808 wrote:
Those options have only been made impossible by the UK governments red lines, that the UK chose to have, and chose to have AFTER the referendum.




No David Cameron said exactly what it meant to leave the EU we will no longer be in the CU/SM. And the future relationship will have to be negotiated during the withdrawl process. So what both sides said during the referenda campaign is just that talk as no one involved in the campaign had any authority to implement any possabile outcomes.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:25 am

Olddog wrote:
If you think that the EU will negotiate a deal that does not firstly protect EU interest but more UK ones, you are dreaming of unicorns.


That is the basic assumption of the Brexiteers.

Olddog wrote:
The UK is roughly 10 % the size of the EU so negotiation will reflect that.


this is the basic truth that the Bexiteers seem to want to forget.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Brexit always meant hard Brexit. You can not leave and stay in for the most parts. And as the campaign promised full control of the borders and full control of legislation, it was obvious that only the true Brexit can deliver this.

And say what you want, but Boris delivers exactly what the people want: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49393556 No more free movement by the end of the 31st October.


could you please show were politicians ask people to vote for a hard Brexit, Farage and everybody else on the Brexit front campaigned for a deal Brexit, even the Norway or Swiss model, not remotely a hard Brexit.


Well they promised.

a) full control of the borders - end of the freedom of movement
b) ability to make their own trade deals - end of the customs union
c) no longer being subject to EU legislation - end of the common market

The 3 basic points of Brexit always meant a hard Brexit, they just lied about the idea that it would not happen and the EU would forget their own pillars.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:32 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Right now" is irrelevant, no one voted on what is right now, people voted on what was back then



Wrong, right now is highly relevant, it was common knowledge that the future relationship had to be negotiated.


right now is irrelevant, as no one knew what "right now" is when they cast their vote.

David Cameron the Prime Minister said it enough right up to polling day.


Yup, tauted as "Project Fear", making it even more irrelevant. How honest "remain" was is irrelevant to how dishonest "Leave" was.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:33 am

AeroVega wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The backstop is an obstacle because it prevents the UK from unilaterally ending it. It does not make any sense for the UK to trigger Article 50 and then sign away their right to stop following EU regulations.


The backstop has clearly defined rules of application and exit rules.

If you want the backstop not to apply make the damn border work as you say it does. Easy as that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:34 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Right now" is irrelevant, no one voted on what is right now, people voted on what was back then



Wrong, right now is highly relevant, it was common knowledge that the future relationship had to be negotiated. David Cameron the Prime Minister said it enough right up to polling day.


Wrong, Farage and others campaigned for a Norway or Swiss type of deal. So stop claiming this, if will always result in the same discussion.

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

A hard Brexit was not on the menu before the referendum, the options lauded by the leave campaign before the referendum didn´t need any backstop.


No one mentioned a BRINO either but that’s what Theresa May passed off as leaving the EU


Wrong, Farage and others campaigned for basically just that. So stop spreading lies like this.

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

but Nigel Farange is even on record admitting that the leave campaign chose to not tell the truth about Brexit because they would other have lost the vote.



That one’s new to me, do you have a source on that. Would be interesting to read.


Well, Farage and others mislead the country, from the 350million to the NHS bus to many other things. So we know that they lied during the campaign. In Switzerland, it would be reason enough to redo the referendum on thee counts that the public wasn't informed properly. But what has democracy got to do with anything.

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Those options have only been made impossible by the UK governments red lines, that the UK chose to have, and chose to have AFTER the referendum.




No David Cameron said exactly what it meant to leave the EU we will no longer be in the CU/SM. And the future relationship will have to be negotiated during the withdrawl process. So what both sides said during the referenda campaign is just that talk as no one involved in the campaign had any authority to implement any possabile outcomes.


:shock: so basically you say, no one can be trusted during a campaign and therefore democracy fails always. If you win a referendum, you can just do anything you like and not just implement what you promised during the campaign. What a load of bullocks yet again from you. I would like to keep people to their word.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:37 am

JJJ wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.


The backstop is an obstacle because it prevents the UK from unilaterally ending it. It does not make any sense for the UK to trigger Article 50 and then sign away their right to stop following EU regulations.


The backstop has clearly defined rules of application and exit rules.

If you want the backstop not to apply make the damn border work as you say it does. Easy as that.


:checkmark: Brexiteers say it is easy and it is . just the pesky EU not wanting to do it, but at the same time they do not want a back-stop because they know the truth: it has never been done before and if - and that is a big if - there is a solution it will be hard and long and expensive to implement. So that alone shows that they are fully aware that they are just trolling by saying it is easy and the EU is to blame.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:40 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Brexit always meant hard Brexit. You can not leave and stay in for the most parts. And as the campaign promised full control of the borders and full control of legislation, it was obvious that only the true Brexit can deliver this.

And say what you want, but Boris delivers exactly what the people want: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49393556 No more free movement by the end of the 31st October.


could you please show were politicians ask people to vote for a hard Brexit, Farage and everybody else on the Brexit front campaigned for a deal Brexit, even the Norway or Swiss model, not remotely a hard Brexit.


Well they promised.

a) full control of the borders - end of the freedom of movement
b) ability to make their own trade deals - end of the customs union
c) no longer being subject to EU legislation - end of the common market

The 3 basic points of Brexit always meant a hard Brexit, they just lied about the idea that it would not happen and the EU would forget their own pillars.


"just" lied about the future. So you concide that the public was lied to and there not willingly voted for a hard Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:45 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Brexit always meant hard Brexit. You can not leave and stay in for the most parts. And as the campaign promised full control of the borders and full control of legislation, it was obvious that only the true Brexit can deliver this.

And say what you want, but Boris delivers exactly what the people want: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49393556 No more free movement by the end of the 31st October.


could you please show were politicians ask people to vote for a hard Brexit, Farage and everybody else on the Brexit front campaigned for a deal Brexit, even the Norway or Swiss model, not remotely a hard Brexit.


Well they promised.

a) full control of the borders - end of the freedom of movement


wrong, they promised full control of the boarder and no change to how people move around. Only "Remain" pointed out that means the end of freedom of movement.

b) ability to make their own trade deals - end of the customs union


wrong, they promised the ability to make their own trade deals and that nothing will change with regards to trade with the EU. Only "Remain" pointed out that is an either/or.

c) no longer being subject to EU legislation - end of the common market


wrong, they prmised the UK won´t be subject to EU legislation and that the UK will of course still be part of the common market, even to the point that nothing would change for the financial industry. Only "Remain" pointed out that is bullsh*t.

The 3 basic points of Brexit always meant a hard Brexit, they just lied about the idea that it would not happen and the EU would forget their own pillars.


It was all lies. Which set of three promises they break is a decision, not a given.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:34 am

Brexit Trump and similar movements is "f**k" expert movements and anti elite run bu often elite like the eton boys.

The problem with EU is that it includes handling of thousends of problems and it requires -experts. Who would let a non expert fix your car, even less taking care of your broken arm? But something so complex as relations between 28 countries shall be left to the people.

To leave something to the people means that the people need to perhaps not be experts but minimum informed.

I think EU28 citizens today are much better informed then 4 years ago. Partly thanks to brexit but also eu and national government combined with news started to talk about eu and how it works.

Effect is today that i do not see any more exit during my lifetime.

The second effect will be that after uk leaves focus will be on the problems need to be solved. The friend of Farage and boris in hungary italy and poland start to see that an anti eu propaganda used in national politics can backfire.

Hungary and poland do not want yo leave, but brexit has made citizrns in other countries ask why they shall contribute to countries that talks so bad about them and eu.

I see a big change the last w years, even migration being proparly discussed and solutions or at least handling of the problem searched together between eu27 and not nation by nation.

Usa and mr bolton, russia snd putin want eu destroyed, in order to mantain a cold war super power model. I think the rest of the world do not see eu as a threat.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Wrong, right now is highly relevant, it was common knowledge that the future relationship had to be negotiated. David Cameron the Prime Minister said it enough right up to polling day.


Wrong, Farage and others campaigned for a Norway or Swiss type of deal. So stop claiming this, if will always result in the same discussion.


Are you suggesting that Farage had the authority to implement the outcome of the referenda even thought he was not part of the official designated campaign group by the Electoral Commission......Vote Leave didn't even have that authority

Silly me for thinking that the I cant trust what the Prime Minister said stating that we will be leaving the CU/SM and the future relationship had to be negotiated




Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

No one mentioned a BRINO either but that’s what Theresa May passed off as leaving the EU


Wrong, Farage and others campaigned for basically just that. So stop spreading lies like this.


No lies do you think the electorate was told that a indefinite backstop was also part of the referenda campaign and Farage endorsed it :rotfl:



Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

That one’s new to me, do you have a source on that. Would be interesting to read.


Well, Farage and others mislead the country, from the 350million to the NHS bus to many other things. So we know that they lied during the campaign. In Switzerland, it would be reason enough to redo the referendum on thee counts that the public wasn't informed properly. But what has democracy got to do with anything.


Both sides lied during the campaign as pointed out in by a cross-party House of Commons committee:Vote Leave, Britain Stronger in Europe and the Treasury have all been accused of misleading voters during the referendum campaign




Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

No David Cameron said exactly what it meant to leave the EU we will no longer be in the CU/SM. And the future relationship will have to be negotiated during the withdrawl process. So what both sides said during the referenda campaign is just that talk as no one involved in the campaign had any authority to implement any possabile outcomes.


:shock: so basically you say, no one can be trusted during a campaign and therefore democracy fails always. If you win a referendum, you can just do anything you like and not just implement what you promised during the campaign. What a load of bullocks yet again from you. I would like to keep people to their word.


Well if you cant trust the Prime Minister who has the authority them there is not much hope for anyone is there.

A campaign is just that a campaign for a vote, its up to the individual on whether or not to believe what is said during a campaign by doing some basic research into the matter
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:41 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Right now" is irrelevant, no one voted on what is right now, people voted on what was back then



Wrong, right now is highly relevant, it was common knowledge that the future relationship had to be negotiated.


right now is irrelevant, as no one knew what "right now" is when they cast their vote.

David Cameron the Prime Minister said it enough right up to polling day.


Yup, tauted as "Project Fear", making it even more irrelevant. How honest "remain" was is irrelevant to how dishonest "Leave" was.

best regards
Thomas


No there is a process that has to be completed and a different number of paths could happen and were known at the time of the referenda. and it was actually mentioned that this could be a possibility as I heard someone commenting on it on the radio on the way to work and this was before the polling day
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:52 am

The problem in the UK is really simple: it is the result of what you get when most of your press is owned by anti-Eu foreign interest that collude with the hard right nationalistic movement.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:57 am

Johnson's letter to Donald Tusk illustrates just how vacant and clueless the Brexiteers are. It's full of nothing but bluster and vague notions. Of course, he doesn't really think anything can change between now and October 31st and this is just a smokescreen ahead of the hard brexit that he and his rich cronies crave.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... d_Tusk.pdf
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:07 am

Olddog wrote:
The problem in the UK is really simple: it is the result of what you get when most of your press is owned by anti-Eu foreign interest that collude with the hard right nationalistic movement.



yeah its all a conspiracy
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:08 am

I had a good laugh reading how that letter was received :
Brexit: a suicide note from Number 10
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:20 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:

Wrong, right now is highly relevant, it was common knowledge that the future relationship had to be negotiated.


right now is irrelevant, as no one knew what "right now" is when they cast their vote.

David Cameron the Prime Minister said it enough right up to polling day.


Yup, tauted as "Project Fear", making it even more irrelevant. How honest "remain" was is irrelevant to how dishonest "Leave" was.

best regards
Thomas


No there is a process that has to be completed and a different number of paths could happen and were known at the time of the referenda. and it was actually mentioned that this could be a possibility as I heard someone commenting on it on the radio on the way to work and this was before the polling day


excuses, excuses, excuses. Leave promised (!) the impossible and they throw everything and everyone under the bus to realize a Brexit they promised to be the polar opposite.

It matters sh*t all that "Remain" told people the truth, they where defamed as promoting "project fear", or that there was a quiet voice somewhere.Their main party line was to deliver Brexit without changes to a) freedom to move, b) access to the common market, delivering any Brexit without those is just as much BRINO as not delivering the rest, especially since an overwhelming majority wanted to stay in the common market (all that voted "remain" and about half of the people that voted "leave").

If it wasn´t politics, they´d be in Prison for fraud.

Olddog wrote:
The problem in the UK is really simple: it is the result of what you get when most of your press is owned by anti-Eu foreign interest that collude with the hard right nationalistic movement.


Or when a small group of Elites sees a golden opportunity to disown lots of people out of their money to line their own pockets with it. That is all the Brexit is: a money making Scam, the biggest heist ever attempted.

best regards
Thomas
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LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:22 am

Meanwhile Uk farmers want compensation should they loose money due to a hard Brexit. The UK government decided to guarantee the GBP3.5bn in subsidies, which the UK government currently gets, untill the next general election. Thus, if Boris is smart, he'll hold a general election in November this year, ensuring that they don't have to pay the guaranteed GBP3.5bn (afterall, the guarantee is till the next general election). Wonder how the UK farmers will react when the UK government would do this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49321597
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:31 am

scbriml wrote:
Johnson's letter to Donald Tusk illustrates just how vacant and clueless the Brexiteers are. It's full of nothing but bluster and vague notions. Of course, he doesn't really think anything can change between now and October 31st and this is just a smokescreen ahead of the hard brexit that he and his rich cronies crave.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... d_Tusk.pdf


Well, if this is truly the case, then the back-stop shouldn't matter since it does, we are forced to conclude the UK isn't committed to the GFA.

Anyhow, even Downing street 10 shows that they do not have a clue about what exiting the EU actually means. Comparing the current situation and using it as an example that it could be done. Quite shocking come to think of it.

So indeed, Alexander Boris Johnson is moving towards a hard Brexit and if he means this, he ensures he gets one.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:39 am

A101 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The problem in the UK is really simple: it is the result of what you get when most of your press is owned by anti-Eu foreign interest that collude with the hard right nationalistic movement.



yeah its all a conspiracy


No, pure money making. Spewing hate and disinformation usually pays better.

But since Nigel Farage is on record stating that they lied to the electorate deliberately, knowing they´d lose otherwise, conspiracy is correct, even without a formal agreement between those frauts.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:40 am

LJ wrote:
Wonder how the UK farmers will react when the UK government would do this.


historically that is fork and killing time.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:11 am

Olddog wrote:
I had a good laugh reading how that letter was received :
Brexit: a suicide note from Number 10


At this point we should point out that Richard North is a prominent Brexiteer and former UKIP candidate and advisor.

One of the few with a solid background in international trade it seems.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:18 am

Yes he is anti EU but the sheer stupidity of how it is handled is driving him mad.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:25 am

tommy1808 wrote:

excuses, excuses, excuses. Leave promised (!) the impossible and they throw everything and everyone under the bus to realize a Brexit they promised to be the polar opposite.

It matters sh*t all that "Remain" told people the truth, they where defamed as promoting "project fear", or that there was a quiet voice somewhere.Their main party line was to deliver Brexit without changes to a) freedom to move, b) access to the common market, delivering any Brexit without those is just as much BRINO as not delivering the rest, especially since an overwhelming majority wanted to stay in the common market (all that voted "remain" and about half of the people that voted "leave").

If it wasn´t politics, they´d be in Prison for fraud.

.


Yeah and remain was all sugar and spice...……….

tommy1808 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The problem in the UK is really simple: it is the result of what you get when most of your press is owned by anti-Eu foreign interest that collude with the hard right nationalistic movement.


Or when a small group of Elites sees a golden opportunity to disown lots of people out of their money to line their own pockets with it. That is all the Brexit is: a money making Scam, the biggest heist ever attempted.

best regards
Thomas


But it must be all right when the elites are part of the EU and doing the same
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:32 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

excuses, excuses, excuses. Leave promised (!) the impossible and they throw everything and everyone under the bus to realize a Brexit they promised to be the polar opposite.

It matters sh*t all that "Remain" told people the truth, they where defamed as promoting "project fear", or that there was a quiet voice somewhere.Their main party line was to deliver Brexit without changes to a) freedom to move, b) access to the common market, delivering any Brexit without those is just as much BRINO as not delivering the rest, especially since an overwhelming majority wanted to stay in the common market (all that voted "remain" and about half of the people that voted "leave").

If it wasn´t politics, they´d be in Prison for fraud.

.


Yeah and remain was all sugar and spice...……….


turned out everything remain claimed is true. Shocker.

tommy1808 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The problem in the UK is really simple: it is the result of what you get when most of your press is owned by anti-Eu foreign interest that collude with the hard right nationalistic movement.


Or when a small group of Elites sees a golden opportunity to disown lots of people out of their money to line their own pockets with it. That is all the Brexit is: a money making Scam, the biggest heist ever attempted.

best regards
Thomas


But it must be all right when the elites are part of the EU and doing the same


It would be just as wrong, but they didn´t lie at any point, so that is a strawman.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Johnson's letter to Donald Tusk illustrates just how vacant and clueless the Brexiteers are. It's full of nothing but bluster and vague notions. Of course, he doesn't really think anything can change between now and October 31st and this is just a smokescreen ahead of the hard brexit that he and his rich cronies crave.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... d_Tusk.pdf


Well, if this is truly the case, then the back-stop shouldn't matter since it does, we are forced to conclude the UK isn't committed to the GFA.

Anyhow, even Downing street 10 shows that they do not have a clue about what exiting the EU actually means. Comparing the current situation and using it as an example that it could be done. Quite shocking come to think of it.

So indeed, Alexander Boris Johnson is moving towards a hard Brexit and if he means this, he ensures he gets one.


Well actually everything he says is correct and it shows they have a better idea than most pro-remain on here, remember I have brought it up before in regards to consent and the GFA. It was the EU that dropped from the Joint Progress Report stated that ‘In the absence of agreed solutions … the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless the NI Executive and Assembly agree.

The remain camp like to strut that they are looking after NI interest but only to infringe on them within the context of the GFA
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:49 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Johnson's letter to Donald Tusk illustrates just how vacant and clueless the Brexiteers are. It's full of nothing but bluster and vague notions. Of course, he doesn't really think anything can change between now and October 31st and this is just a smokescreen ahead of the hard brexit that he and his rich cronies crave.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... d_Tusk.pdf


Well, if this is truly the case, then the back-stop shouldn't matter since it does, we are forced to conclude the UK isn't committed to the GFA.

Anyhow, even Downing street 10 shows that they do not have a clue about what exiting the EU actually means. Comparing the current situation and using it as an example that it could be done. Quite shocking come to think of it.

So indeed, Alexander Boris Johnson is moving towards a hard Brexit and if he means this, he ensures he gets one.


Well actually everything he says is correct and it shows they have a better idea than most pro-remain on here, remember I have brought it up before in regards to consent and the GFA. It was the EU that dropped from the Joint Progress Report stated that ‘In the absence of agreed solutions … the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless the NI Executive and Assembly agree.

The remain camp like to strut that they are looking after NI interest but only to infringe on them within the context of the GFA


I fail to see how putting up a hard border will help to further the NI interest. And before you start, because of the kind of Brexit the Brexiteers want, this is the result of it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:

turned out everything remain claimed is true. Shocker.


So who won WWIII, how did the immediate Brexit recession pan out if we voted for leave, or perhaps the 3 million people who will lose their jobs because of leave vote and David Cameron said he wouldn't resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote




tommy1808 wrote:

It would be just as wrong, but they didn´t lie at any point, so that is a strawman.

Best regards
Thomas


lying by omission is still a lie
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:02 am

A101 wrote:
the 3 million people who will lose their jobs because of leave vote


How many already lost their job because of the looming Brexit? And we will know how many will loose their jobs because of a hard Brexit in the next 6 months and in the aftermath for companies whom can't adjust at a moments notice but will look at investment opportunities when the UK plant is up for reinvestments.

And how about the millions and millions of other jobs with lesser protection. The PM said it in his letter himself, the UK will seek other rules regarding job safety and security. Other means lesser, because if the UK wanted more safety and security they would have implemented it, the EU only tells what the baseline should be, if you want to add to that, nobody is stopping you.
Last edited by Dutchy on Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
the 3 million people who will lose their jobs because of leave vote


How many already lost their job because of the looming Brexit? And we will know how many will loose their jobs because of a hard Brexit in the next 6 months and in the aftermath for companies whom can't adjust at a moments notice but will look at investment opportunities when the UK plant is up for reinvestments.

And how about the millions and millions of other jobs with lesser protection. The PM said it in his letter himself, the UK will seek other rules regarding job safety and security. Other means lesser, because if the UK wanted more safety and security they would have implemented it, the EU only tells what the baseline should be, if you want to add to that, nobody is stopping you.



the point being is that the claim was made 3 million will lose their job when we voted for Brexit and was the immediate aftermath, Job protection is no different whether we are part of the EU or not automation is the future UK car manufacturing was always going to face difficulties in the future due to the new tech becoming available and the cost of multiple plants
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:39 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
the 3 million people who will lose their jobs because of leave vote


How many already lost their job because of the looming Brexit? And we will know how many will loose their jobs because of a hard Brexit in the next 6 months and in the aftermath for companies whom can't adjust at a moments notice but will look at investment opportunities when the UK plant is up for reinvestments.

And how about the millions and millions of other jobs with lesser protection. The PM said it in his letter himself, the UK will seek other rules regarding job safety and security. Other means lesser, because if the UK wanted more safety and security they would have implemented it, the EU only tells what the baseline should be, if you want to add to that, nobody is stopping you.



the point being is that the claim was made 3 million will lose their job when we voted for Brexit and was the immediate aftermath, Job protection is no different whether we are part of the EU or not automation is the future UK car manufacturing was always going to face difficulties in the future due to the new tech becoming available and the cost of multiple plants


Since you like to get all law like with us: what is the immediate aftermath, one month, one year, 2 years, 3 years, and aftermath of what? The vote or Brexit?

As for labor laws, Alexander Boris Johnson says it himself:

Although we will remain committed to world-class environment, product and labour standards, the laws and regulations to deliver them will potentially diverge from those of the EU. That is the point of our exit and our ability to enable this is central to our future democracy.


Diverge means less strict, that is the point of Brexit, more money to be made if laws in certain areas are more relaxed.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:20 pm

There will be a "Goodbye" party at the Dutch beach near Wijk aan Zee on October 31st. It seems that 5,900 already announced they will attend the party announced on Facebook and 45,000 are interested. The organiser intends to apply for a permit as potential demand exceeded his expectations (though it originally started as a joke). In addition he already cliamed the URL byebyebritain.nl....

Link in Dutch only.
https://www.ad.nl/noord-holland/met-zijn-allen-groot-brittannie-uitzwaaien-op-31-oktober-in-wijk-aan-zee~a742fcd95/?referrer=https://www.google.com/
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:44 pm

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

turned out everything remain claimed is true. Shocker.

how did the immediate Brexit recession pan out if we voted for leave


gosh aren´t you a terrible liar...... the Brexit Recession prediction was if Art. 50 was triggered right away. Which it wasn´t.

lying by omission is still a lie


The EU was completely truthful about options and legal impossibilities.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:42 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

You forgot a few options.

d) Stay in the Common market and customs union
e) Stay in the customs union.


Nope. Those options are only available after the UK has accepted the WA. Right now it is just those three.


"Right now" is irrelevant, no one voted on what is right now, people voted on what was back then.


I beg to differ. If we want to try to find the best possible outcome for the EU and the UK then realizing what the options are right now is much more relevant than what happened back then.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:10 pm

LJ wrote:
There will be a "Goodbye" party at the Dutch beach near Wijk aan Zee on October 31st. It seems that 5,900 already announced they will attend the party announced on Facebook and 45,000 are interested. The organiser intends to apply for a permit as potential demand exceeded his expectations (though it originally started as a joke). In addition he already cliamed the URL byebyebritain.nl....

Link in Dutch only.
https://www.ad.nl/noord-holland/met-zijn-allen-groot-brittannie-uitzwaaien-op-31-oktober-in-wijk-aan-zee~a742fcd95/?referrer=https://www.google.com/


Just want to add for completeness sake that the "organizer" is actually sad to see Britain leave the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:40 pm

AeroVega wrote:
I beg to differ. If we want to try to find the best possible outcome for the EU and the UK then realizing what the options are right now is much more relevant than what happened back then.


So enlighten us, what I can see is what acceptable for the EU is unacceptable for the hardliners within the UK, and what the hardliners in the UK want is unacceptable for the EU. So tell me what is acceptable for both parties other than a hard Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:41 pm

AeroVega wrote:
LJ wrote:
There will be a "Goodbye" party at the Dutch beach near Wijk aan Zee on October 31st. It seems that 5,900 already announced they will attend the party announced on Facebook and 45,000 are interested. The organiser intends to apply for a permit as potential demand exceeded his expectations (though it originally started as a joke). In addition he already cliamed the URL byebyebritain.nl....

Link in Dutch only.
https://www.ad.nl/noord-holland/met-zijn-allen-groot-brittannie-uitzwaaien-op-31-oktober-in-wijk-aan-zee~a742fcd95/?referrer=https://www.google.com/


Just want to add for completeness sake that the "organizer" is actually sad to see Britain leave the EU.


As do many on the continent.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
I beg to differ. If we want to try to find the best possible outcome for the EU and the UK then realizing what the options are right now is much more relevant than what happened back then.


So enlighten us, what I can see is what acceptable for the EU is unacceptable for the hardliners within the UK, and what the hardliners in the UK want is unacceptable for the EU. So tell me what is acceptable for both parties other than a hard Brexit.


By "we" I mean the EU and the UK. Not you and me. It is up to the EU and the UK to find an acceptable solution for both sides.

But for the sake of discussion, the withdrawal agreement already contains a clause that states that "Ireland and the UK may continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories”. Why can they not try to make arrangements for goods as well? Why must the UK first sign away their sovereign rights? That is what I object to.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:38 pm

The UK seems to me to be demanding that the border be open to goods between NI and the ROI. That is simply asking for a border open to smuggling. It is likely that the Tory leader knows it and plans on using it for the benefits of his supporters. Goods moving into the ROI from NI must meet EU standards and pay EU tariffs. Brexiters claim ignorance. They are, and maliciously so.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:39 pm

AeroVega wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Why is the backstop an obstacle? If the magic eye border works as the UK says it does the backstop will never enter into force.

The backstop is an obstacle because it prevents the UK from unilaterally ending it. It does not make any sense for the UK to trigger Article 50 and then sign away their right to stop following EU regulations.

Is it about unilaterally ending it or the fact that as long as it is in play, the UK remains in the EU and can do nothing for itself?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:39 pm

Because UK is not called perfidious albion by accident. There is no trust left after practicing them s closely past years.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:43 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The UK seems to me to be demanding that the border be open to goods between NI and the ROI. That is simply asking for a border open to smuggling. It is likely that the Tory leader knows it and plans on using it for the benefits of his supporters. Goods moving into the ROI from NI must meet EU standards and pay EU tariffs. Brexiters claim ignorance. They are, and maliciously so.

A fair bit of smuggling takes place between another British Territory and mainland EU, and no GFA agreements exist there, so is smuggling a red herring that's only known about when you have border checks but without is just open trade?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

turned out everything remain claimed is true. Shocker.

how did the immediate Brexit recession pan out if we voted for leave


gosh aren´t you a terrible liar...... the Brexit Recession prediction was if Art. 50 was triggered right away. Which it wasn´t.

lying by omission is still a lie


The EU was completely truthful about options and legal impossibilities.

best regards
Thomas


Gosh the second person to call me a liar, it was published by HM Treasury before the referenda:

The analysis in this document comes to a clear central conclusion: a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession


Notice it say’s a vote to leave and not invoke Article 50, and beside even if the projection was based on invoking Article 50 it was a lie based on omission of fact you can’t have it both ways.

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