A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:26 pm

Klaus wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Klaus wrote:
The GFA is a successful resolution to the colonial conflicts Britain had created there, but it could only work that way with both Ireland and the UK both in the EU.


That is a claim that you cannot prove.

Right now the UK has been unable to disprove this for over 3 years by now.

Please quote the clause(s) of the GFA that you think the current UK government is no longer committed to.

The central mechanism of the GFA is to open up NI to both the ROI and to Britain so NI citizens can freely choose themselves whether to orient towards the ROI or towards Britain, and that was only possible by both the UK and the ROI being EU members within the same regulatory environment, eliminating the need for a hard border between NI and the ROI.

The policy of the current UK government is now to cut off one of the legs of the GFA by destroying the ROI part of the GFA with Brexit and with the ensuing divergence which automatically re-creates the need for a controlled border, so the only NI citizens not directly affected are just the ones oriented towards Britain. ROI-oriented citizens of NI are shafted by the unilateral Brexit policies pushed by Westminster and lose most of their freedoms afforded to them by the GFA, effectively making them second-class citizens again and re-creating the same source of conflict that had powered the civil war back before the GFA.

And neither the current UK government nor its backers in the Tory party care what will happen to NI in this situation they themselves are pushing for.


A post that dosnt actully say how we violated the GFA, but let me remind you that free movement between Irish citizens not only across the Irish frontier but direct to UK mainland will continue under a Common Travel Area (CTA) in which they retain all current rights,so who is actully cut off?
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:48 pm

Klaus wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Klaus wrote:
The GFA is a successful resolution to the colonial conflicts Britain had created there, but it could only work that way with both Ireland and the UK both in the EU.


That is a claim that you cannot prove.

Right now the UK has been unable to disprove this for over 3 years by now.


Unable? They have not even tried. And why would they if the other side refuses to cooperate?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:14 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Klaus wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

That is a claim that you cannot prove.

Right now the UK has been unable to disprove this for over 3 years by now.


Unable? They have not even tried. And why would they if the other side refuses to cooperate?


please proof where the EU is refusing to cooperate - unless you understand cooperation as give the UK what it wants regardless of the EU rules and fundamentals.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:16 pm

A101 wrote:
A post that dosnt actully say how we violated the GFA, but let me remind you that free movement between Irish citizens not only across the Irish frontier but direct to UK mainland will continue under a Common Travel Area (CTA) in which they retain all current rights,so who is actully cut off?


Just a practical question, how are the UK distinguish between an Irish citizen and a Dutchman crossing the Irish - UK border?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
A post that dosnt actully say how we violated the GFA, but let me remind you that free movement between Irish citizens not only across the Irish frontier but direct to UK mainland will continue under a Common Travel Area (CTA) in which they retain all current rights,so who is actully cut off?


Just a practical question, how are the UK distinguish between an Irish citizen and a Dutchman crossing the Irish - UK border?



Most likely the same way if a UK citizen choose to leave for the Netherlands via the Republic it is still wise to carry some form of acceptable travel documents if requested at the gate of departure or via uniformed officers at destination

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/t ... dex_en.htm

Schengen EU countries have the possibility of adopting national rules obliging you to hold or carry papers and documents when you are present on their territory.

Driving licences, post, bank or tax cards are not accepted as valid travel documents or proof of identity.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:26 am

A101 wrote:
Most likely the same way if a UK citizen choose to leave for the Netherlands via the Republic it is still wise to carry some form of acceptable travel documents if requested at the gate of departure or via uniformed officers at destination


No that is not a fair compares, Ireland is outside of Schengen, that means that everyone is checked with thus a very visual border with very visual and real infrastructure. The border between Belgium and The Netherlands is very different, that is the same as it is between Northern Ireland and Ireland, ee.g. non-existing for all purposes. This is possible because if you are allowed into the Schengen zone, you can freely travel between countries.

Now, do this same trick for the Irish border, post-Brexit, with Ireland in the EU with freedom of travel for all EU citizens and the UK outside the EU - taking back control of the borders rhetoric. So the UK is fine that whoever is allowed in Ireland can travel freely to the UK, no matter which nationality he or she holds? So you say that for non-Irish citizens the border would be the same as between Ireland and The Netherlands at the airport for instance, but for Irish citizens it would be non-existing. Or am I misinterpreting you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:31 am

AeroVega wrote:
Klaus wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

That is a claim that you cannot prove.

Right now the UK has been unable to disprove this for over 3 years by now.


Unable? They have not even tried. And why would they if the other side refuses to cooperate?


Only if by "Cooperate" you mean "breaking laws and treaties to accommodate the UKs wishes".....

The EU made clear, and the UK having voted for every single relevant piece of legislation and treaties concerned knew it perfectly well, what the limitations on the future relationships are and have to be, even before the referendum. That is like you having a fitness club membership, quit because you don´t want to pay any more, and then calling its unwillingness to keep letting you use their facilities after you´ve stopped paying, an "refusal to cooperate".

Dang, i would really like to keep local copies of what i watch on Netflix, but they simply refuse to cooperate.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Most likely the same way if a UK citizen choose to leave for the Netherlands via the Republic it is still wise to carry some form of acceptable travel documents if requested at the gate of departure or via uniformed officers at destination


No that is not a fair compares, Ireland is outside of Schengen, that means that everyone is checked with thus a very visual border with very visual and real infrastructure. The border between Belgium and The Netherlands is very different, that is the same as it is between Northern Ireland and Ireland, ee.g. non-existing for all purposes. This is possible because if you are allowed into the Schengen zone, you can freely travel between countries.

Now, do this same trick for the Irish border, post-Brexit, with Ireland in the EU with freedom of travel for all EU citizens and the UK outside the EU - taking back control of the borders rhetoric. So the UK is fine that whoever is allowed in Ireland can travel freely to the UK, no matter which nationality he or she holds? So you say that for non-Irish citizens the border would be the same as between Ireland and The Netherlands at the airport for instance, but for Irish citizens it would be non-existing. Or am I misinterpreting you?


Especially as there is no reason Ireland could not join the Schengen area when the GFA is no more and there are border controls between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In the end Ireland did not join Schengen as a compromise.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:37 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Most likely the same way if a UK citizen choose to leave for the Netherlands via the Republic it is still wise to carry some form of acceptable travel documents if requested at the gate of departure or via uniformed officers at destination


No that is not a fair compares, Ireland is outside of Schengen, that means that everyone is checked with thus a very visual border with very visual and real infrastructure. The border between Belgium and The Netherlands is very different, that is the same as it is between Northern Ireland and Ireland, ee.g. non-existing for all purposes. This is possible because if you are allowed into the Schengen zone, you can freely travel between countries.

Now, do this same trick for the Irish border, post-Brexit, with Ireland in the EU with freedom of travel for all EU citizens and the UK outside the EU - taking back control of the borders rhetoric. So the UK is fine that whoever is allowed in Ireland can travel freely to the UK, no matter which nationality he or she holds? So you say that for non-Irish citizens the border would be the same as between Ireland and The Netherlands at the airport for instance, but for Irish citizens it would be non-existing. Or am I misinterpreting you?


Especially as there is no reason Ireland could not join the Schengen area when the GFA is no more and there are border controls between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In the end Ireland did not join Schengen as a compromise.


:checkmark: correct. Because of the UK refusal to join Schengen, Ireland couldn't join Schengen. So yes, I guess in the case . of a hard Brexit, I can imagine that Ireland joins Schengen, why not?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

No that is not a fair compares, Ireland is outside of Schengen, that means that everyone is checked with thus a very visual border with very visual and real infrastructure. The border between Belgium and The Netherlands is very different, that is the same as it is between Northern Ireland and Ireland, ee.g. non-existing for all purposes. This is possible because if you are allowed into the Schengen zone, you can freely travel between countries.

Now, do this same trick for the Irish border, post-Brexit, with Ireland in the EU with freedom of travel for all EU citizens and the UK outside the EU - taking back control of the borders rhetoric. So the UK is fine that whoever is allowed in Ireland can travel freely to the UK, no matter which nationality he or she holds? So you say that for non-Irish citizens the border would be the same as between Ireland and The Netherlands at the airport for instance, but for Irish citizens it would be non-existing. Or am I misinterpreting you?


Especially as there is no reason Ireland could not join the Schengen area when the GFA is no more and there are border controls between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In the end Ireland did not join Schengen as a compromise.


:checkmark: correct. Because of the UK refusal to join Schengen, Ireland couldn't join Schengen. So yes, I guess in the case . of a hard Brexit, I can imagine that Ireland joins Schengen, why not?



If they couldn't join it before as you claim, how are they going to do it with the Anglo-Irish CTA that's just been signed?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:23 am

Who says the Anglo-Irish CTA survives a Hard Brexit?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:58 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Especially as there is no reason Ireland could not join the Schengen area when the GFA is no more and there are border controls between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In the end Ireland did not join Schengen as a compromise.


:checkmark: correct. Because of the UK refusal to join Schengen, Ireland couldn't join Schengen. So yes, I guess in the case . of a hard Brexit, I can imagine that Ireland joins Schengen, why not?



If they couldn't join it before as you claim, how are they going to do it with the Anglo-Irish CTA that's just been signed?


I noticed you didn't want to answer the hard question: how to distinguish between an Irishman (CTA-pass) and a non-Irish legitimately staying in Ireland, without checking everyone. If that can't be done, the CTA is moot, because either you need to check everyone - gaining control of the border - or check no-one. You can't do it in any other way, now can you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:59 am

seahawk wrote:
Who says the Anglo-Irish CTA survives a Hard Brexit?


It can, but what is the point other than the right of a Brit or Irish citizen living in each other country. On a day to day basis, it is a hard border thus checking everyone.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:10 am

seahawk wrote:
Who says the Anglo-Irish CTA survives a Hard Brexit?


No one but the CTA give right to Irish/UK citizens such as:

Under the CTA, Irish and UK nationals have: the right to enter and reside in each others’ state without being subject to a requirement to obtain permission; the right to work without being subject to a requirement to obtain permission; the right to access education; access to social welfare entitlements and benefits; access to health services; access to social housing; and the right to vote in local and parliamentary elections.


And if dropped may or may not be in violation of the GFA for North South cooperation in "Social Security/Social Welfare - entitlements of cross-border workers and fraud control." but I'm not 100% certain on that
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

:checkmark: correct. Because of the UK refusal to join Schengen, Ireland couldn't join Schengen. So yes, I guess in the case . of a hard Brexit, I can imagine that Ireland joins Schengen, why not?



If they couldn't join it before as you claim, how are they going to do it with the Anglo-Irish CTA that's just been signed?


I noticed you didn't want to answer the hard question: how to distinguish between an Irishman (CTA-pass) and a non-Irish legitimately staying in Ireland, without checking everyone. If that can't be done, the CTA is moot, because either you need to check everyone - gaining control of the border - or check no-one. You can't do it in any other way, now can you?


Ah sorry about that, I thought I did but I sent my post didn't come up for some reason, but I cant be bothered to redo the whole thing again. but anyway the guidance shows. As I have never had to deal with it and haven't given it any thought to how it operated, but I found this for you.

There are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.

The Common Travel Area also involves some co-operation on matters relating to immigration issues. A third country national, for example, may be refused permission to enter Ireland if they intend to travel onwards to the UK and they would not qualify for admission to the UK under the Aliens (Amendment) Order 1975. Irish immigration officers have the power to carry out checks on people arriving in the State from the UK and to refuse them entry to the State on the same grounds as apply to people arriving from outside the Common Travel Area. These checks are carried out selectively.

 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:44 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


If they couldn't join it before as you claim, how are they going to do it with the Anglo-Irish CTA that's just been signed?


I noticed you didn't want to answer the hard question: how to distinguish between an Irishman (CTA-pass) and a non-Irish legitimately staying in Ireland, without checking everyone. If that can't be done, the CTA is moot, because either you need to check everyone - gaining control of the border - or check no-one. You can't do it in any other way, now can you?


Ah sorry about that, I thought I did but I sent my post didn't come up for some reason, but I cant be bothered to redo the whole thing again. but anyway the guidance shows. As I have never had to deal with it and haven't given it any thought to how it operated, but I found this for you.



There are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.

The Common Travel Area also involves some co-operation on matters relating to immigration issues. A third country national, for example, may be refused permission to enter Ireland if they intend to travel onwards to the UK and they would not qualify for admission to the UK under the Aliens (Amendment) Order 1975. Irish immigration officers have the power to carry out checks on people arriving in the State from the UK and to refuse them entry to the State on the same grounds as apply to people arriving from outside the Common Travel Area. These checks are carried out selectively.



You don't need to take an plane or boat to cross from RoI to NI. The sea border between Ireland (the island) and Great Britain is not the issue, the land border is.

So, again, how is the land border going to check if anyone crossing it is British, Irish or, say, Italian?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:08 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I noticed you didn't want to answer the hard question: how to distinguish between an Irishman (CTA-pass) and a non-Irish legitimately staying in Ireland, without checking everyone. If that can't be done, the CTA is moot, because either you need to check everyone - gaining control of the border - or check no-one. You can't do it in any other way, now can you?


Ah sorry about that, I thought I did but I sent my post didn't come up for some reason, but I cant be bothered to redo the whole thing again. but anyway the guidance shows. As I have never had to deal with it and haven't given it any thought to how it operated, but I found this for you.



There are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the 2 countries. You do not need to have a passport to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.

The Common Travel Area also involves some co-operation on matters relating to immigration issues. A third country national, for example, may be refused permission to enter Ireland if they intend to travel onwards to the UK and they would not qualify for admission to the UK under the Aliens (Amendment) Order 1975. Irish immigration officers have the power to carry out checks on people arriving in the State from the UK and to refuse them entry to the State on the same grounds as apply to people arriving from outside the Common Travel Area. These checks are carried out selectively.



You don't need to take an plane or boat to cross from RoI to NI. The sea border between Ireland (the island) and Great Britain is not the issue, the land border is.

So, again, how is the land border going to check if anyone crossing it is British, Irish or, say, Italian?


Well obviously your not unless you get intercepted by an authorised officer checking your identification and visa status or you admit your intensions on arrival in the ROI (not that anyone will) the 2016 Immigration Act amendments require identification when staying in hotels or leasing a dwelling will require landlords to carry out checks on prospective tenants, such as seeing their passport or visa, to ascertain their immigration status (but again that comes down to self reporting of the landlord)

But the chance are that other persons are entering the ROI that are from the EU will be staying in the ROI and crossing for tourism purposes and I imagine a blind eye will take place for that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:23 pm

A101 wrote:
Well obviously your not unless you get intercepted by an authorised officer checking your identification and visa status or you admit your intensions on arrival in the ROI (not that anyone will) the 2016 Immigration Act amendments require identification when staying in hotels or leasing a dwelling will require landlords to carry out checks on prospective tenants, such as seeing their passport or visa, to ascertain their immigration status (but again that comes down to self reporting of the landlord)

But the chance are that other persons are entering the ROI that are from the EU will be staying in the ROI and crossing for tourism purposes and I imagine a blind eye will take place for that.


Ah ok, so taking back control of the borders means, closing the border everywhere, but we leave the back-door open to the EU. Interesting. 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

:checkmark: correct. Because of the UK refusal to join Schengen, Ireland couldn't join Schengen. So yes, I guess in the case . of a hard Brexit, I can imagine that Ireland joins Schengen, why not?



If they couldn't join it before as you claim, how are they going to do it with the Anglo-Irish CTA that's just been signed?


I noticed you didn't want to answer the hard question: how to distinguish between an Irishman (CTA-pass) and a non-Irish legitimately staying in Ireland, without checking everyone. If that can't be done, the CTA is moot, because either you need to check everyone - gaining control of the border - or check no-one. You can't do it in any other way, now can you?


So you check no one. What's the problem?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:24 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:


If they couldn't join it before as you claim, how are they going to do it with the Anglo-Irish CTA that's just been signed?


I noticed you didn't want to answer the hard question: how to distinguish between an Irishman (CTA-pass) and a non-Irish legitimately staying in Ireland, without checking everyone. If that can't be done, the CTA is moot, because either you need to check everyone - gaining control of the border - or check no-one. You can't do it in any other way, now can you?


So you check no one. What's the problem?


I have no problem, welcome to Schengen, but the British seem to have a problem with it, so my question is why our resident Brexitremist is ook with leaving the back door wide open. That is kind of strange isn't it.

Anyhow, there was a special question for you, you might want to take to answer this one.

Dutchy wrote:
please proof where the EU is refusing to cooperate - unless you understand cooperation as give the UK what it wants regardless of the EU rules and fundamentals.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:29 pm

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

Ah sorry about that, I thought I did but I sent my post didn't come up for some reason, but I cant be bothered to redo the whole thing again. but anyway the guidance shows. As I have never had to deal with it and haven't given it any thought to how it operated, but I found this for you.



You don't need to take an plane or boat to cross from RoI to NI. The sea border between Ireland (the island) and Great Britain is not the issue, the land border is.

So, again, how is the land border going to check if anyone crossing it is British, Irish or, say, Italian?


Well obviously your not unless you get intercepted by an authorised officer checking your identification and visa status or you admit your intensions on arrival in the ROI (not that anyone will) the 2016 Immigration Act amendments require identification when staying in hotels or leasing a dwelling will require landlords to carry out checks on prospective tenants, such as seeing their passport or visa, to ascertain their immigration status (but again that comes down to self reporting of the landlord)

But the chance are that other persons are entering the ROI that are from the EU will be staying in the ROI and crossing for tourism purposes and I imagine a blind eye will take place for that.


I have to admit that I find these contortions over not putting a border but at the same time trying to pretend they're taking back control of the borders quite amusing.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:06 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

You don't need to take an plane or boat to cross from RoI to NI. The sea border between Ireland (the island) and Great Britain is not the issue, the land border is.

So, again, how is the land border going to check if anyone crossing it is British, Irish or, say, Italian?


Well obviously your not unless you get intercepted by an authorised officer checking your identification and visa status or you admit your intensions on arrival in the ROI (not that anyone will) the 2016 Immigration Act amendments require identification when staying in hotels or leasing a dwelling will require landlords to carry out checks on prospective tenants, such as seeing their passport or visa, to ascertain their immigration status (but again that comes down to self reporting of the landlord)

But the chance are that other persons are entering the ROI that are from the EU will be staying in the ROI and crossing for tourism purposes and I imagine a blind eye will take place for that.


I have to admit that I find these contortions over not putting a border but at the same time trying to pretend they're taking back control of the borders quite amusing.



Well the only ones who seem to be worried about is the pro-remain on this forum. Ileagal immigration happens whether there is a hard border or not.

The UK/ROI uses other means for illegal persons of interest like Operation Gull,if a tourist from the EU lands in the ROI and wants to go and spend some money in NI I’m not particularly worried are you?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:53 pm

A101 wrote:
Well the only ones who seem to be worried about is the pro-remain on this forum. Ileagal immigration happens whether there is a hard border or not.


The reason why we show that your open border solution is a hypocrite argument to make. It was such a big issue for the Leave campaign and now all of a sudden it doesn't seem to be a problem anymore. That is strange, to say the least.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well the only ones who seem to be worried about is the pro-remain on this forum. Ileagal immigration happens whether there is a hard border or not.


The reason why we show that your open border solution is a hypocrite argument to make. It was such a big issue for the Leave campaign and now all of a sudden it doesn't seem to be a problem anymore. That is strange, to say the least.



Nothing hypocritical about it at all, due to the unique nature of the issues nationals from both sides of the border have expressed the desire for no border controls the UK government has taken that on board and said no checkpoints at the border, Taoiseach Varadkar has also expressed the same in the event of no deal exit who is going to win Varadkar or Brussels?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:40 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well the only ones who seem to be worried about is the pro-remain on this forum. Ileagal immigration happens whether there is a hard border or not.


The reason why we show that your open border solution is a hypocrite argument to make. It was such a big issue for the Leave campaign and now all of a sudden it doesn't seem to be a problem anymore. That is strange, to say the least.



Nothing hypocritical about it at all, due to the unique nature of the issues nationals from both sides of the border have expressed the desire for no border controls the UK government has taken that on board and said no checkpoints at the border, Taoiseach Varadkar has also expressed the same in the event of no deal exit who is going to win Varadkar or Brussels?



ok, given the unique circumstances, let Northern Ireland have the same regulatory regime as the EU, so we can leave the border open. That shouldn't be a problem as well. Because if it would be a problem then you are not sincere about this and I couldnot believe that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The reason why we show that your open border solution is a hypocrite argument to make. It was such a big issue for the Leave campaign and now all of a sudden it doesn't seem to be a problem anymore. That is strange, to say the least.



Nothing hypocritical about it at all, due to the unique nature of the issues nationals from both sides of the border have expressed the desire for no border controls the UK government has taken that on board and said no checkpoints at the border, Taoiseach Varadkar has also expressed the same in the event of no deal exit who is going to win Varadkar or Brussels?



ok, given the unique circumstances, let Northern Ireland have the same regulatory regime as the EU, so we can leave the border open. That shouldn't be a problem as well. Because if it would be a problem then you are not sincere about this and I couldnot believe that.



I have said on numerous times that was possabile if the EU left in the paragraph 50 from the joint progress report let the Northern Ireland Assembly have a vote that can to continue remaining in EU standards so whatever is imported to NI is compatible with EU standards for goods, the border is already electronic for VAT/excise adding customs/Tarrif duties is not going to be particularly hard is it.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:24 am

A101 wrote:
I have said on numerous times that was possabile if the EU left in the paragraph 50 from the joint progress report let the Northern Ireland Assembly have a vote that can to continue remaining in EU standards so whatever is imported to NI is compatible with EU standards for goods, the border is already electronic for VAT/excise adding customs/Tarrif duties is not going to be particularly hard is it.

Except the EU is more than just a trading bloc, so if NI is going to remain for trade they have to do farming by EU rules, industry by EU rules, finances by EU rules, citizen rights by EU rules, legal adjudication by the ECJ, etc etc etc...in essence the border would run down the Irish Sea, whatever divergence the UK has from EU rules will not apply to NI, so essentially they would become a EU colony until they get integrated into the ROI or become their own nation.
Now the big question is whether the Government and their allies want the NI assembly to have a vote on remaining in the EU under the "Supervision" of the ROI.
Imagine what would happen if they voted for the Irish Sea border. In my opinion, nothing, the WA would be amended, no backstop, bill bought to parliament for vote and would still fail under the guise of no deal, the we start all over again without NI as the stumbling block.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:28 am

par13del wrote:
A101 wrote:
I have said on numerous times that was possabile if the EU left in the paragraph 50 from the joint progress report let the Northern Ireland Assembly have a vote that can to continue remaining in EU standards so whatever is imported to NI is compatible with EU standards for goods, the border is already electronic for VAT/excise adding customs/Tarrif duties is not going to be particularly hard is it.

Except the EU is more than just a trading bloc, so if NI is going to remain for trade they have to do farming by EU rules, industry by EU rules, finances by EU rules, citizen rights by EU rules, legal adjudication by the ECJ, etc etc etc...in essence the border would run down the Irish Sea, whatever divergence the UK has from EU rules will not apply to NI, so essentially they would become a EU colony until they get integrated into the ROI or become their own nation.
Now the big question is whether the Government and their allies want the NI assembly to have a vote on remaining in the EU under the "Supervision" of the ROI.
Imagine what would happen if they voted for the Irish Sea border. In my opinion, nothing, the WA would be amended, no backstop, bill bought to parliament for vote and would still fail under the guise of no deal, the we start all over again without NI as the stumbling block.



No they don’t. Third nations that import into the EU just has to comply with the standards and regulations for importation of goods. Australia for instance imports into the EU but also remain a sovereign nation and does not come under the ECJ or make any laws within Australia, they also have different stands for the domestic market but consumers have a choice if they want to go organic grown foods or not it actully diversify the Australian market

The only difference here is that NI will remain by EU standards for goods within domestic market if the assembly wants to vote that way it protects the single market for the EU which is the whole point from the EU side of things not that NI has to come under the jurisdiction of the EU, if the rest of the UK wants to diverge from those stands they can and that helps with a FTA with the US, it also gives a market for those who want to continue buy EU standards goods.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:44 am

The whole debate has one problem, all other nations trade with each other without being in the EU. Nobody needs to be in the EU to trade and having borders is pretty routine. Set up a border between the RoI and NI and be done with it. In a world of technology a border is just a virtual line.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:56 am

A101 wrote:
the border is already electronic for VAT/excise adding customs/Tarrif duties is not going to be particularly hard is it.


aside of the pesky fact that the UK could hardly be trusted to enforce EU market/ customs rules when they where under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and rules could be enforced. So, it being apparently hard to do even with the UK in the EU, it is quite obviously very hard without. And not just did they fail to enforce the rules. They ignored a multi billion fraud even after being warned about it repeatedly and then pretty much refuse to cough up the money to pay for it.....

So the UK government pushed to let Beijing flood the single market with cheap low quality products and when the rest of the EU members didn´t go along just had its customs officers look the other way when the stuff got smuggled into the country. Yeah, sure we can trust them to not mess with the open border into the EU market ....

The UK has to proof it is trustworthy before anything like that can even be considered. Signing the WA, and hence proving its commitment to the GFA, would be a reasonable start.

best regards
Thomas
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:44 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:

Well obviously your not unless you get intercepted by an authorised officer checking your identification and visa status or you admit your intensions on arrival in the ROI (not that anyone will) the 2016 Immigration Act amendments require identification when staying in hotels or leasing a dwelling will require landlords to carry out checks on prospective tenants, such as seeing their passport or visa, to ascertain their immigration status (but again that comes down to self reporting of the landlord)

But the chance are that other persons are entering the ROI that are from the EU will be staying in the ROI and crossing for tourism purposes and I imagine a blind eye will take place for that.


I have to admit that I find these contortions over not putting a border but at the same time trying to pretend they're taking back control of the borders quite amusing.



Well the only ones who seem to be worried about is the pro-remain on this forum. Ileagal immigration happens whether there is a hard border or not.


Ehm, no. Remember this?

Image

The point was driven deep by the Leave side: the EU doesn't have secure borders so we need to take back control of our borders. Boats in the Med, the refugee crisis, etc. were constant topics of conversation.

Your argument here is blatant revisionism.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:59 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
the border is already electronic for VAT/excise adding customs/Tarrif duties is not going to be particularly hard is it.


aside of the pesky fact that the UK could hardly be trusted to enforce EU market/ customs rules when they where under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and rules could be enforced. So, it being apparently hard to do even with the UK in the EU, it is quite obviously very hard without. And not just did they fail to enforce the rules. They ignored a multi billion fraud even after being warned about it repeatedly and then pretty much refuse to cough up the money to pay for it.....

So the UK government pushed to let Beijing flood the single market with cheap low quality products and when the rest of the EU members didn´t go along just had its customs officers look the other way when the stuff got smuggled into the country. Yeah, sure we can trust them to not mess with the open border into the EU market ....

The UK has to proof it is trustworthy before anything like that can even be considered. Signing the WA, and hence proving its commitment to the GFA, would be a reasonable start.

best regards
Thomas



All that tells me parliament made the right decision to not ratify the WA as any solutions that the UK present will not be to the EU satisfaction, unless it makes a colony out of NI.

But I also seem to remember that business men from Germany were also implicated in the importation to defraud the EU. Also if I was to look closely at the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) for fraudulent activity their would several members within the EU that would also not bear up to a level of scrutiny.


The UKGov does not have to prove anything and signing that abomination would prove nothing just that you think the UK is gullible enough to do it, not everyone in the UKGov is inflected with Theresa May’s mindset.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:02 am

For this reason the only solution is the hard Brexit and ending the GFA, because only then you have full control of the British borders and full sovereignty. No deal, no more money for Brussels, full control.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:04 am

seahawk wrote:
The whole debate has one problem, all other nations trade with each other without being in the EU. Nobody needs to be in the EU to trade and having borders is pretty routine. Set up a border between the RoI and NI and be done with it. In a world of technology a border is just a virtual line.


Point to a border to two countries who aren't in the same trading block where the border is just a virtual line.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:07 am

seahawk wrote:
For this reason the only solution is the hard Brexit and ending the GFA, because only then you have full control of the British borders and full sovereignty. No deal, no more money for Brussels, full control.


Our resident Brexitremist is perfectly ok with not full control for some reason.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:14 am

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

I have to admit that I find these contortions over not putting a border but at the same time trying to pretend they're taking back control of the borders quite amusing.



Well the only ones who seem to be worried about is the pro-remain on this forum. Ileagal immigration happens whether there is a hard border or not.


Ehm, no. Remember this?

Image

The point was driven deep by the Leave side: the EU doesn't have secure borders so we need to take back control of our borders. Boats in the Med, the refugee crisis, etc. were constant topics of conversation.

Your argument here is blatant revisionism.


It’s not my argument but Dutchy’s. Well the EU has an illegal immigration problem most countries in the world have an illegal problem, so if we put in a customs control point in the middle of Ireland it’s going to magically stop the illegal immigration problem into the UK?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:19 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
For this reason the only solution is the hard Brexit and ending the GFA, because only then you have full control of the British borders and full sovereignty. No deal, no more money for Brussels, full control.


Our resident Brexitremist is perfectly ok with not full control for some reason.


Oh I’m quite happy to put in a customs control point, they don’t bother me, but once again it is the unique situation and the will of nationals from both sides of the border to whom they object to it, the UKGov is honour that, just like they intend to honour the result of the EU referenda.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:38 am

A101 wrote:
The UKGov does not have to prove anything.


The fact (you should wrap your head around it being a fact) that the UK closed both eyes really hard and looked the other way letting a Chinese customs scam run for years unimpeded, with damages in the billions, makes extremely clear that the UK government has to proof being trustworthy. It is not. In the last three years it has shown complete disregard to treaties they have signed and/or voted for. Everything they put ink on is suddenly someone else problem to solve, and just bending rules to the breaking point, like the extremely generous offer in the WA, that opens several avenues for WTO complains against the EU, is not enough, they insist they have to be broken for them to have their fairy-tale unicorn land ...

But i guess in business you keep shipping stuff to customers that don´t pay there invoices, because they don´t have anything to proof either....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:59 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:


Well the only ones who seem to be worried about is the pro-remain on this forum. Ileagal immigration happens whether there is a hard border or not.


Ehm, no. Remember this?

Image

The point was driven deep by the Leave side: the EU doesn't have secure borders so we need to take back control of our borders. Boats in the Med, the refugee crisis, etc. were constant topics of conversation.

Your argument here is blatant revisionism.



It’s not my argument but Dutchy’s. Well the EU has an illegal immigration problem most countries in the world have an illegal problem, so if we put in a customs control point in the middle of Ireland it’s going to magically stop the illegal immigration problem into the UK?


Your argument is "we are not worried about illegal immigration and unsecure borders", the leave campaign was full of key figures pointing they needed to get control of the borders to avoid illegal immigration: the breaking point poster, constant pieces about Calais.

And, of course, the express doesn't disappoint:

Human traffickers are ALREADY using porous Irish border to ship migrants into Britain
HUMAN traffickers are charging illegal immigrants up to £10,000 to be smuggled into Britain through the Irish border on assurances Dublin border controls are lax.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/97035 ... immigrants

Or even from the horse's mouth.

“There would have to be border controls but not a prevention of genuine Irish from coming in across the border”
Lord Lawson, Vote Leave campaign, 10 April 2016
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:24 am

It seems, as reported just now by the BBC, that those bastions of democracy, the Brexiteers, are to ask the Queen to suspend Parliament. You couldn’t make this shit up.

Sorry, no link from mobile, just a news alert.
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:48 am

scbriml wrote:
It seems, as reported just now by the BBC, that those bastions of democracy, the Brexiteers, are to ask the Queen to suspend Parliament. You couldn’t make this shit up.

Sorry, no link from mobile, just a news alert.


All in the name of "the democratic will of the people". :roll: Just watch as brextremists won't bat an eyelid.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:57 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
For this reason the only solution is the hard Brexit and ending the GFA, because only then you have full control of the British borders and full sovereignty. No deal, no more money for Brussels, full control.


Our resident Brexitremist is perfectly ok with not full control for some reason.


Oh I’m quite happy to put in a customs control point, they don’t bother me, but once again it is the unique situation and the will of nationals from both sides of the border to whom they object to it, the UKGov is honour that, just like they intend to honour the result of the EU referenda.


Yes, that is good, but honoring the commitment has consequences as explained to you numerous times and yet you do not seem to except those consequences. Those consequences are well understood for the EU, a bit less so - or doesn't want to or can't accept it, for the Johnson government. Theressa May did understand, that's why the British proposed the Back-Stop in the first place.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Our resident Brexitremist is perfectly ok with not full control for some reason.


Oh I’m quite happy to put in a customs control point, they don’t bother me, but once again it is the unique situation and the will of nationals from both sides of the border to whom they object to it, the UKGov is honour that, just like they intend to honour the result of the EU referenda.


Yes, that is good, but honoring the commitment has consequences as explained to you numerous times and yet you do not seem to except those consequences. Those consequences are well understood for the EU, a bit less so - or doesn't want to or can't accept it, for the Johnson government. Theressa May did understand, that's why the British proposed the Back-Stop in the first place.



The backstop is certainly not originally a UK intuitive, from memory it was in a EU working paper November 2017.

And the consequences are certainly not creating a EU colony of NI
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:13 am

zkojq wrote:
scbriml wrote:
It seems, as reported just now by the BBC, that those bastions of democracy, the Brexiteers, are to ask the Queen to suspend Parliament. You couldn’t make this shit up.

Sorry, no link from mobile, just a news alert.


All in the name of "the democratic will of the people". :roll: Just watch as brextremists won't bat an eyelid.


And there goes democracy itself, all in the name of getting the UK out of the EU with a hard Brexit. I have asked many times, what are the Brexitremist prepared to jeopardize to reach their goal, it seems the Tory party listen to their members quite well, all 200.000 or so of them. Just about everything can be sacrificed on the altar of Brexit. Brexit is a religion and there are extreme fractions on it, sacrifice the Tory party: sure no problem. Sacrifice the economy: sure as long as we think we are free. Sacrifice Great Brittain with Scotland and Northern Ireland secreting from the Union: sure why not. Sacrifice democracy itself: but but we won the advisory referendum with lies all around, thus yeah we need to do this.

If you would have written a script in 2010 about this, and gave it to a publisher, he would have laughed in your face and turned it down as being too unrealistic.

We live in interesting times and that's not particularly good. Good politics are boring politics.

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but
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Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:29 am

A101 wrote:
The backstop is certainly not originally a UK intuitive, from memory it was in a EU working paper November 2017.


That's why you shouldnot trust your memory. The EU has a simple and strait forward approach: you want to leave the EU, that is fine, go ahead, but all consequences are yours to deal with within the boundaries of EU regulation. This is exactly what Merkel told Johnson: you come with a solution that works. But the December 2017 statement was a joint statement, not an EU one alone.

Initial Backstop proposal
Further information: Brexit negotiations
EU Task Force
On 7 September 2017, the EU Task Force published guiding principles for the dialogue on Ireland / Northern Ireland which reiterated and expanded the principles given in 29 April guidelines, in particular the protection of the Good Friday Agreement and the continuation of the Common Travel Area.[6] On 9 September 2017, the EU Commission published several negotiating papers, including "Guiding Principles on the Dialogue for Ireland/Northern Ireland". In it, the EU concedes/declares that it is the responsibility of the UK to propose solutions for the post-Brexit Irish border. The paper envisages that a "unique" solution would be permissible here; in other words, any such exceptional Irish solution should not be seen as a template for post-Brexit relationships with the other EU members on border and customs control matters, for example ETIAS.[7]

Prime Minister Theresa May said in October 2016 that there would be "no return to the borders of the past".[8]

December 2017 Joint Statement
In December 2017, the negotiating teams from European Union and the UK proposed an agreed draft:

49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.[9]

Although initially approved by the British Prime Minister (Theresa May), the DUP (on which whose confidence and supply support the Government's minority administration depends) vetoed this and subsequently a second paragraph (50) was inserted stressing that there would be no new controls on goods and services moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. This second paragraph was not incorporated into the EU's proposed text of the Withdrawal Agreement, as the European Union argued that it is exclusively an internal matter for the United Kingdom.[10]

The negotiators returned to the backstop question in 2018 (see below).

Both the UK and the EU have prioritized avoidance of a 'hard border' as one of the three most important areas to resolve in order to reach a Withdrawal Agreement.[11]
Link to Wikipedia page

A101 wrote:
And the consequences are certainly not creating a EU colony of NI


Really such a statement is beneath you, isn't helpful and is just there to get some cheap trills. But it is quite interesting that the Brexitremist actually proposed that the Irish Republic leave the EU in order to solve this, e.g. create a vassal state of the ROI (exporting the problem the Brexitremist have created). That's why it is good for Ireland to be within the EU, the EU protects all its members, small and large.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
The backstop is certainly not originally a UK intuitive, from memory it was in a EU working paper November 2017.


That's why you shouldnot trust your memory. The EU has a simple and strait forward approach: you want to leave the EU, that is fine, go ahead, but all consequences are yours to deal with within the boundaries of EU regulation. This is exactly what Merkel told Johnson: you come with a solution that works. But the December 2017 statement was a joint statement, not an EU one alone.

Initial Backstop proposal
Further information: Brexit negotiations
EU Task Force
On 7 September 2017, the EU Task Force published guiding principles for the dialogue on Ireland / Northern Ireland which reiterated and expanded the principles given in 29 April guidelines, in particular the protection of the Good Friday Agreement and the continuation of the Common Travel Area.[6] On 9 September 2017, the EU Commission published several negotiating papers, including "Guiding Principles on the Dialogue for Ireland/Northern Ireland". In it, the EU concedes/declares that it is the responsibility of the UK to propose solutions for the post-Brexit Irish border. The paper envisages that a "unique" solution would be permissible here; in other words, any such exceptional Irish solution should not be seen as a template for post-Brexit relationships with the other EU members on border and customs control matters, for example ETIAS.[7]

Prime Minister Theresa May said in October 2016 that there would be "no return to the borders of the past".[8]

December 2017 Joint Statement
In December 2017, the negotiating teams from European Union and the UK proposed an agreed draft:

49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.[9]

Although initially approved by the British Prime Minister (Theresa May), the DUP (on which whose confidence and supply support the Government's minority administration depends) vetoed this and subsequently a second paragraph (50) was inserted stressing that there would be no new controls on goods and services moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. This second paragraph was not incorporated into the EU's proposed text of the Withdrawal Agreement, as the European Union argued that it is exclusively an internal matter for the United Kingdom.[10]

The negotiators returned to the backstop question in 2018 (see below).

Both the UK and the EU have prioritized avoidance of a 'hard border' as one of the three most important areas to resolve in order to reach a Withdrawal Agreement.[11]
Link to Wikipedia page



So I was out by a couple of months :D




Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
And the consequences are certainly not creating a EU colony of NI


Really such a statement is beneath you, isn't helpful and is just there to get some cheap trills. But it is quite interesting that the Brexitremist actually proposed that the Irish Republic leave the EU in order to solve this, e.g. create a vassal state of the ROI (exporting the problem the Brexitremist have created). That's why it is good for Ireland to be within the EU, the EU protects all its members, small and large.


We it’s actully the truth is it, the UK would actully cede territory to an political institution.

But it would also be wise not to insinuate that every announcement made by someone whom is pro leave as a consensus that every pro leave person agrees with it, unless I actully say it within the forum please try not to insinuate that I agree with everything said.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:24 am

And one has to be honest, what is the problem of showing your passport when crossing a border or declaring the goods you transport? The benefits of the UK-Irish CTA are still in place and much more important. Only the hard border fully respects the sovereignty of the UK.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:53 am

seahawk wrote:
what is the problem of showing your passport when crossing a border or declaring the goods you transport? .


that is the Problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaBQfSA ... u.be&t=406

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:58 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
what is the problem of showing your passport when crossing a border or declaring the goods you transport? .


that is the Problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaBQfSA ... u.be&t=406

best regards
Thomas


Well, one can not hand the sovereignty of the UK to some extremists. (Disclaimer: post might contain some irony)
 
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Loew
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
And one has to be honest, what is the problem of showing your passport when crossing a border or declaring the goods you transport? The benefits of the UK-Irish CTA are still in place and much more important. Only the hard border fully respects the sovereignty of the UK.


First problem is, that setting up a hard border between the NI and ROI is almost physically impossible. Secondly this is not about passports, but this is about freight transport. To declare goods, that doesn´t mean to wave some papers to officers face and be on your way.

But speaking about papers, single lorry from or to the the no-deal brexit uk would need a massive amount of paperwork, like 2 cm thick dossier. However hard border is not just about papers, it is also about checks of goods, it´s about facilities at the border, it´s about equipment, it´s about number of officers at the border. At this time, the UK doesn´t have manpower to maintain hard border and it doesn´t have facilities nor equipment to keep the hard border running. Even if it had those things, setting up a hard border is physically almost impossible, as there are hundreds of roads / pathways crossing the border and dozens of roads crossing the border multiple times, sometimes within a few hundreds of meters. To maintain hard border, the UK would have to drastically reduce number of border crossings, from hundreds to mere dozen. Building a hard border would take years.

BTW, this border has been open to people since 1923. So, while it may not be a big deal to show your passport at the border, these people who are used to an open border will have to go to a designated border crossing point, wait in the queue, show their passport, maybe even answer a few questions and then be on their way. No deal brexit will of course bring ETIAS in 2021 for the UK citizens, so they will have to pay 7 euros and fill an online questionairre even before arriving to border. It is a massive incovience to everyone and I can assure you that no one will be happy about this. This may get through at Slovakia-Ukraine border as those communities are still well used to border bureucracy from old soviet times, but NI and ROI? No way.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos