User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8842
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:41 am

No deal is the default outcome of Brexit and as parliament failed to agree on a deal.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1251
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:49 am

But also voted against no deal....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:57 am

seahawk wrote:
No deal is the default outcome of Brexit and as parliament failed to agree on a deal.


That is still a matter of interpretation of British constitutional law and interpretation of Article 50 itself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:05 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Oh, for crying out loud will you all calm down?


This is an exceptional time, so pointing that out is a good thing at any measure.

KLDC10 wrote:
1. @Dutchy - The UK remains a world power. It may not be a superpower, but it is a powerful country nonetheless. Unlike the Netherlands, I would hasten to add.


The Netherlands has no power on its own, I fully agree, within the EU though, it has power. The UK will be "lucky" if it isn't dissolved itself as we know it. In any case a lot less influence or power as you will, outside of the EU, it just becomes less relevant. Denying that is denying reality itself.

KLDC10 wrote:
2. Prorogation is a perfectly normal process, which is clearly defined in law. Moreover, the lion’s share of the prorogation period covers weeks when Parliaments was scheduled to be in recess anyway, for party conferences. Prorogation has only removed a handful of sitting days (3 or 4, can’t quite remember of the top of my head).


Bullocks, sure prorogation is a normal process but is initiated in abnormal circumstances, so it is abused. It is plain for everyone.

KLDC10 wrote:
3. Prorogation happens at the end of each Parliamentary Session, before a Queen’s Speech and a new one. A Parliamentary Session is not the same as a Parliamentary Term. The current Parliamentary session is an anomaly insofar as it is the longest in over 350 years. It is therefore sensible to bring it to a close.


So? The last session was initiated to deliver Brexit, it hasn't yet and now Parliament has been made powerless by the Brexit fundamentalist.

KLDC10 wrote:
4. The reason No Deal is on the table is because Parliament itself legislated to put it there. Any suggestion that MPs are being denied time to scrutinise the process is therefore entirely disingenuous. Parliament has been part of the process throughout.


So it is ok to push one extreme result through?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Loew
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:23 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Oh, for crying out loud will you all calm down?

1. @Dutchy - The UK remains a world power. It may not be a superpower, but it is a powerful country nonetheless. Unlike the Netherlands, I would hasten to add.

2. Prorogation is a perfectly normal process, which is clearly defined in law. Moreover, the lion’s share of the prorogation period covers weeks when Parliaments was scheduled to be in recess anyway, for party conferences. Prorogation has only removed a handful of sitting days (3 or 4, can’t quite remember of the top of my head).

3. Prorogation happens at the end of each Parliamentary Session, before a Queen’s Speech and a new one. A Parliamentary Session is not the same as a Parliamentary Term. The current Parliamentary session is an anomaly insofar as it is the longest in over 350 years. It is therefore sensible to bring it to a close.

4. The reason No Deal is on the table is because Parliament itself legislated to put it there. Any suggestion that MPs are being denied time to scrutinise the process is therefore entirely disingenuous. Parliament has been part of the process throughout.


Why are you so nervous? It is going exactly as you superior officers have planned. You should really have more trust into Moscow, its disgraceful. Oh and btw:

1. Unelected queen
2. Unelected house of lords
3. Unelected PM
4. No written constitution

you should raise these points above, with the superior officer as your lectures on democracy are just laughable. Btw. maybe Russia should invest more money into making sure that 30% of its population wont live in zemlyankas anymore, instead of international troll funding, just saying.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11923
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:46 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Oh, for crying out loud will you all calm down?

1. @Dutchy - The UK remains a world power. It may not be a superpower, but it is a powerful country nonetheless. Unlike the Netherlands, I would hasten to add.

2. Prorogation is a perfectly normal process, which is clearly defined in law. Moreover, the lion’s share of the prorogation period covers weeks when Parliaments was scheduled to be in recess anyway, for party conferences. Prorogation has only removed a handful of sitting days (3 or 4, can’t quite remember of the top of my head).

3. Prorogation happens at the end of each Parliamentary Session, before a Queen’s Speech and a new one. A Parliamentary Session is not the same as a Parliamentary Term. The current Parliamentary session is an anomaly insofar as it is the longest in over 350 years. It is therefore sensible to bring it to a close.

4. The reason No Deal is on the table is because Parliament itself legislated to put it there. Any suggestion that MPs are being denied time to scrutinise the process is therefore entirely disingenuous. Parliament has been part of the process throughout.


BoJo is that you ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:50 am

1,3million and counting signed a petition: Do not prorogue Parliament

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:25 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Moreover, the lion’s share of the prorogation period covers weeks when Parliaments was scheduled to be in recess anyway, for party conferences. Prorogation has only removed a handful of sitting days (3 or 4, can’t quite remember of the top of my head).

Oft quoted but incorrect. The house has yet to approve the conference recess and it was by no means a done deal either.

The prorogation of Parliament for five weeks is unprecedented, three or four days, fine, that's routine. The move is cynical, calculated and cowardly.
By all means go for no-deal brexit if you wish too but do it through the house, argue your corner, fight for what you think is right.

The current path is nothing but a cowardly act made by a set of spineless cockwombles trying to force through their minority position.





*Foolish or obnoxious persons
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14370
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:30 am

It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be by voters to their MP's when they get this extended vacation to Oct. 14 when the Queen calls Parliament into its new session year. The party conferences are likely to be very contentious as well. If not already, MP's are going to get an earful from both sides and some will lose there seats in the next election over Brexit especially with the negative affects on jobs, access to goods, prices, a major cut in the value of the Pound and lost tourism.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1225
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:49 am

KLDC10 wrote:
2. Prorogation is a perfectly normal process, which is clearly defined in law. Moreover, the lion’s share of the prorogation period covers weeks when Parliaments was scheduled to be in recess anyway, for party conferences. Prorogation has only removed a handful of sitting days (3 or 4, can’t quite remember of the top of my head).


Sorry, I'm not convinced. Despite it being a valid point that Parliament goes into recess anyway around that time due to party conference season, that does not explain why a few extra days before then has been removed. In light of the current situation and knowing where certain people stand, I find it hard to believe that it's anything but an attempt to stifle Parliament attempting to have some sovereignty and a say on the current stance of heading for no deal unless the EU blinks.

I also suspect (or hope) a few of the political parties would be prepared to cancel their conferences in order to go to Parliament, particularly the pro-remain parties.

If I am wrong, then please kindly explain why an extra few days have been added on and what purpose is this going to serve?

KLDC10 wrote:
3. Prorogation happens at the end of each Parliamentary Session, before a Queen’s Speech and a new one. A Parliamentary Session is not the same as a Parliamentary Term. The current Parliamentary session is an anomaly insofar as it is the longest in over 350 years. It is therefore sensible to bring it to a close.


Despite the fact that there's the small unfinished business of Brexit and what to do next? It has been approx. 4 1/2 months since the last extension was granted and next to no progress has been made other than making no deal much more likely. Remember, the reason why there has been no Queen's Speech for a while is because of Brexit.

Therefore, it is not sensible to bring the current session to a close until Brexit is resolved one way or another. Doing so now implies an ulterior motive to leave without any further opportunity or time for Parliament to force Johnson to change course.

KLDC10 wrote:
4. The reason No Deal is on the table is because Parliament itself legislated to put it there. Any suggestion that MPs are being denied time to scrutinise the process is therefore entirely disingenuous. Parliament has been part of the process throughout.


It is true to say that Parliament hasn't done itself any favours over what it wants and has contributed to the current impasse (as well as Theresa May putting herself in that position to an extent by calling a GE in 2017 when she didn't need to).

It's also true to say that a few MP's who have previously voted against the WA have now said they would vote for it (e.g. my local MP, who also said in the same interview she would rather revoke Article 50 than go for no-deal) and there are some who represent leave-voting constituencies who voted against the WA yet are also against the second referendum on the grounds it would be a breach of voters trust (my local MP again :banghead:).

However, the difference then is Theresa May was PM and despite her "no deal is better than a bad deal" rhetoric a few years ago, I am certain she did not want to go through with a no-deal Brexit and I think everyone knew that. We'd have left by now and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Hence why she requested two extensions to Article 50, tried three times to get the WA through Parliament and was trying for a fourth time until the party forced her into a position where she could jump or be pushed. Times are different now we have Boris Johnson as PM who seems content to leave without a deal.

Dutchy wrote:
1,3million and counting signed a petition: Do not prorogue Parliament

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157


Already signed. :checkmark:
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9189
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:24 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
It is true to say that Parliament hasn't done itself any favours over what it wants and has contributed to the current impasse (as well as Theresa May putting herself in that position to an extent by calling a GE in 2017 when she didn't need to).

It's also true to say that a few MP's who have previously voted against the WA have now said they would vote for it (e.g. my local MP, who also said in the same interview she would rather revoke Article 50 than go for no-deal) and there are some who represent leave-voting constituencies who voted against the WA yet are also against the second referendum on the grounds it would be a breach of voters trust (my local MP again :banghead:).

How do you explain that the current PM also changed his vote and voted in favour of the WA when the No Deal supporters in parliament still voted No....
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:37 pm

par13del wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
It is true to say that Parliament hasn't done itself any favours over what it wants and has contributed to the current impasse (as well as Theresa May putting herself in that position to an extent by calling a GE in 2017 when she didn't need to).

It's also true to say that a few MP's who have previously voted against the WA have now said they would vote for it (e.g. my local MP, who also said in the same interview she would rather revoke Article 50 than go for no-deal) and there are some who represent leave-voting constituencies who voted against the WA yet are also against the second referendum on the grounds it would be a breach of voters trust (my local MP again :banghead:).

How do you explain that the current PM also changed his vote and voted in favour of the WA when the No Deal supporters in parliament still voted No....


And Rees-Mogg has done the same.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
2122M
Posts: 1225
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:50 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
cockwombles


New favorite insult. Actually, forget that. New favorite word altogether.

Thank you!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9189
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:29 pm

Dutchy wrote:
par13del wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
It is true to say that Parliament hasn't done itself any favours over what it wants and has contributed to the current impasse (as well as Theresa May putting herself in that position to an extent by calling a GE in 2017 when she didn't need to).

It's also true to say that a few MP's who have previously voted against the WA have now said they would vote for it (e.g. my local MP, who also said in the same interview she would rather revoke Article 50 than go for no-deal) and there are some who represent leave-voting constituencies who voted against the WA yet are also against the second referendum on the grounds it would be a breach of voters trust (my local MP again :banghead:).

How do you explain that the current PM also changed his vote and voted in favour of the WA when the No Deal supporters in parliament still voted No....


And Rees-Mogg has done the same.

Which is shocking and against all common sense since they are the hard line Brexiters who want to leave with no deal, so if they changed their vote, what does this say about the Remain camp who are all up in arms to prevent No Deal Brexit?

I suspect we will hear that they knew the vote would fail so there was no risk.....
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8842
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:00 pm

Te remoaners killed the deal and that will give them the hard Brexit. That is karma.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:16 pm

A no deal brexit will ultimately lead to a quicker cap in hand return to the EU under article 49. No perks, part of schengen, adopting the Euro......taking back control, well done chaps!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:19 pm

seahawk wrote:
Te remoaners killed the deal and that will give them the hard Brexit. That is karma.


This might lead to revoking article 50 in the two weeks remaining before the 31st October deadline. That would be karma.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21303
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Germany eases citizenship law for descendants of Nazi victims

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... zi-victims

At least the applications described in the article should always have been accepted, so that's a positive change.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Te remoaners killed the deal and that will give them the hard Brexit. That is karma.


This might lead to revoking article 50 in the two weeks remaining before the 31st October deadline. That would be karma.

Only if Parliamentarians finally start doing their jobs properly and act in the interests of the whole nation rather than the fantasist minority.
They'll get there in the end, unfortunately it often takes time. In this case it's time they don't have so it'll come with pain until the eventual return under article 49 and the loss of the best deal we had or will ever have.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:39 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Te remoaners killed the deal and that will give them the hard Brexit. That is karma.


This might lead to revoking article 50 in the two weeks remaining before the 31st October deadline. That would be karma.

Only if Parliamentarians finally start doing their jobs properly and act in the interests of the whole nation rather than the fantasist minority.
They'll get there in the end, unfortunately it often takes time. In this case it's time they don't have so it'll come with pain until the eventual return under article 49 and the loss of the best deal we had or will ever have.


Yes and at the loss of a few years and quite a lot of economical damage. Even if the UK would apply under article 49 on November 1st, the process of rejoining would take years of negotiation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8842
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Te remoaners killed the deal and that will give them the hard Brexit. That is karma.


This might lead to revoking article 50 in the two weeks remaining before the 31st October deadline. That would be karma.


Do you really believe this? With Corbyn more interested in becoming PM than stopping Brexit, the opposition divided and only a few days left to revoke? The basic problem always has been the Corbyn likes a Brexit just as much as the Torries, only for different reasons. Both see the EU as an obstacle to achieve their vision of the UK. Imho nothing will happen, the UK will stumble out of the without a deal, then there will be a general election and Boris and Corbyn fight over the scraps. And in both have a vision for the country that cares little about the well being of the normal public. One wants to make it haven for rich people, the other wants to start a socialist Utopia.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:36 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Te remoaners killed the deal and that will give them the hard Brexit. That is karma.


This might lead to revoking article 50 in the two weeks remaining before the 31st October deadline. That would be karma.


Do you really believe this? With Corbyn more interested in becoming PM than stopping Brexit, the opposition divided and only a few days left to revoke? The basic problem always has been the Corbyn likes a Brexit just as much as the Torries, only for different reasons. Both see the EU as an obstacle to achieve their vision of the UK. Imho nothing will happen, the UK will stumble out of the without a deal, then there will be a general election and Boris and Corbyn fight over the scraps. And in both have a vision for the country that cares little about the well being of the normal public. One wants to make it haven for rich people, the other wants to start a socialist Utopia.


Hey, why not, seahawk, why the hell not. The whole Brexit is moments of sheer unbelieve and utter despair with moments of shaking once head with a hint of insanity, so in some ways, this would be the most fitting outcome.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
wingman
Posts: 3782
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:14 pm

I'm kind of excited to be in Scotland and Denmark the final 10 days of October. Is it schadenfreude? I don't know if I'll take any real pleasure watching Brits gleefully sail off the cliff's edge, but it will be positively mesmerizing to be "onsite" in Europe as the UK finally slashes it's way into the Aorta after three years of stabbing itself with a dulled butter knife. Vote Yes or No, the British government in general has displayed what is possibly the greatest incompetence of any government in modern history. To go three years and come to a hard Brexit with no single bloc in Parliament able to prevent it from happening is quite simply stupefying. I would've bet the house on this outcome never happening but when the Eton elites set their minds to something I guess they still have what it takes. I just never thought it would be national suicide.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3939
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:36 pm

Image
Ironic, huh?
I wonder how the UK would look like today had Miliband won.


BestWestern wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Loew wrote:
However hard border is not just about papers, it is also about checks of goods, it´s about facilities at the border, it´s about equipment, it´s about number of officers at the border. At this time, the UK doesn´t have manpower to maintain hard border and it doesn´t have facilities nor equipment to keep the hard border running.


Get the IRA to do the border checks.


Again, do you think this is funny? Do you normally support terrorism?


Still not even close to the stupid Irish border proposal seen in this thread. Maybe we should get unicorns to do the border checks instead.
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3939
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 pm

Klaus wrote:
Corbyn's a willing, even eager collaborator with the leavers over among the Tories.

But today at the latest there is exactly zero ground to stand on for the leavers regarding democracy. That argument has been bombed out so comprehensively today that there's just a crater left:

• Unelected PM
• asks unelected Queen to
• dissolve Parliament
• in order to ram through a bonkers long-term damaging scheme without any democratic oversight which
• the leavers never dared to actually ask the population whether they really want it as now planned.

This is a coup by a radical minority with no democratic legitimacy whatsoever now.

I'm horrified for regular UK citizens, but utterly relieved to be rid of this insane clown show in a few weeks.


The cherry on the top is all the brexiteer extremists who love that their Prime Minister is lying to the nation about his reasons for proroguing parliament. Imagine being so extreme about your belief in putting up trade barriers that you don't care at all what methods your political leaders take to get it done.
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8842
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

This might lead to revoking article 50 in the two weeks remaining before the 31st October deadline. That would be karma.


Do you really believe this? With Corbyn more interested in becoming PM than stopping Brexit, the opposition divided and only a few days left to revoke? The basic problem always has been the Corbyn likes a Brexit just as much as the Torries, only for different reasons. Both see the EU as an obstacle to achieve their vision of the UK. Imho nothing will happen, the UK will stumble out of the without a deal, then there will be a general election and Boris and Corbyn fight over the scraps. And in both have a vision for the country that cares little about the well being of the normal public. One wants to make it haven for rich people, the other wants to start a socialist Utopia.


Hey, why not, seahawk, why the hell not. The whole Brexit is moments of sheer unbelieve and utter despair with moments of shaking once head with a hint of insanity, so in some ways, this would be the most fitting outcome.


Why not, is easy. Because both larger parties (which dominate the parliament due to the winner takes it all voting system) are led by persons caring more about personal interests and their own vanity than the country. Because of the lack of a written constitution and the reliance on common law makes it hard to challenge the proceedings in court and finally because the elites from those nice elite universities are totally over represented in parliament and have fully lost touch with the realities of the people.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3939
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
Personally I think the UK is too broken at this point to be a constructive member of the EU, it wasn't really one even before, so I want Brexit to go ahead, any kind of Brexit is fine by me.


I agree with this so long as Scotland and NI can gain independence (or reunify) should they desire and rejoin the EU (should they desire membership).
First to fly the 787-9
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1757
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:24 pm

scbriml wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Months ago, I asked is if the Queen could do something to possibly stop the Brexit process. Guess with what has happened today with the actions of the Queen as to suspend a sitting Parliament, I guess I got my answer. It is a dark day in the history of the UK, perhaps the worst since the bombings in WW II.


The Queen was never going to do anything other than agree to the PM's request. :shakehead:

Politically, she's nothing more than a figurehead and a rubber stamp. I'm not sure what you think she could, or would, do.


But if you look at other European countries; "rubber-stamp royals" have actually intervened before to bang some heads together over constitutional impasses. Belgium, I'm pretty sure, and I think maybe Spain as well.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17630
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
But the queen did intervene with Parliament, ultimatelly she decided to rubber-stamp the stupid request of the Prime Minister, a question never should have laid before her, but once did, it is a political decision she made to block parliament from discussing Brexit.


No, she hasn't. She's just performed her figurehead duty. The PM has interfered with the normal workings of Parliament, not the Queen. You cannot expect the Queen to take such a decision, she just won't. While in theory she could have declined the request, she was never going to. Ever.

I'm no Royalist by any stretch of the imagination, but the Queen has done nothing wrong. Boris Johnson is the architect of this, the Queen is an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:26 pm

Loew wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Oh, for crying out loud will you all calm down?

1. @Dutchy - The UK remains a world power. It may not be a superpower, but it is a powerful country nonetheless. Unlike the Netherlands, I would hasten to add.

2. Prorogation is a perfectly normal process, which is clearly defined in law. Moreover, the lion’s share of the prorogation period covers weeks when Parliaments was scheduled to be in recess anyway, for party conferences. Prorogation has only removed a handful of sitting days (3 or 4, can’t quite remember of the top of my head).

3. Prorogation happens at the end of each Parliamentary Session, before a Queen’s Speech and a new one. A Parliamentary Session is not the same as a Parliamentary Term. The current Parliamentary session is an anomaly insofar as it is the longest in over 350 years. It is therefore sensible to bring it to a close.

4. The reason No Deal is on the table is because Parliament itself legislated to put it there. Any suggestion that MPs are being denied time to scrutinise the process is therefore entirely disingenuous. Parliament has been part of the process throughout.


Why are you so nervous? It is going exactly as you superior officers have planned. You should really have more trust into Moscow, its disgraceful. Oh and btw:

1. Unelected queen
2. Unelected house of lords
3. Unelected PM
4. No written constitution

you should raise these points above, with the superior officer as your lectures on democracy are just laughable. Btw. maybe Russia should invest more money into making sure that 30% of its population wont live in zemlyankas anymore, instead of international troll funding, just saying.


We don't elect Prime Ministers.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
User avatar
Grizzly410
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:28 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
It's also true to say that a few MP's who have previously voted against the WA have now said they would vote for it (e.g. my local MP, who also said in the same interview she would rather revoke Article 50 than go for no-deal) and there are some who represent leave-voting constituencies who voted against the WA yet are also against the second referendum on the grounds it would be a breach of voters trust (my local MP again :banghead:).


So in a strict WA or No Deal she would vote the WA, right?

I've read somewhere a interesting theory about the prorogation and BoJo strategy, hope I can summarize it almost correctly.
HoC voted down the WA 3 times. But doing the maths, if BJ manage to gather all who voted for the WA at least once, adding the like of Boeing74741R MP, he has something. TM failure was letting MP always have multiple choice... WA, no WA, kicking the can and extend, maybe revoke (referendum)....
By proroging Bojo's cutting Parliament safety net to block no deal or extend as they won't have time to organize on time. It goes down to deal or no deal : do or die.
The move would be to seek with EU the best tweak possible to the WA + PD to sell to its public audience, the BoJoDeal, and offer to Parliament a : "do BJD or die (no deal)" vote for the Parliament...

Does it makes sense or I have misread?
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1225
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:18 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
It's also true to say that a few MP's who have previously voted against the WA have now said they would vote for it (e.g. my local MP, who also said in the same interview she would rather revoke Article 50 than go for no-deal) and there are some who represent leave-voting constituencies who voted against the WA yet are also against the second referendum on the grounds it would be a breach of voters trust (my local MP again :banghead:).


So in a strict WA or No Deal she would vote the WA, right?

I've read somewhere a interesting theory about the prorogation and BoJo strategy, hope I can summarize it almost correctly.
HoC voted down the WA 3 times. But doing the maths, if BJ manage to gather all who voted for the WA at least once, adding the like of Boeing74741R MP, he has something. TM failure was letting MP always have multiple choice... WA, no WA, kicking the can and extend, maybe revoke (referendum)....
By proroging Bojo's cutting Parliament safety net to block no deal or extend as they won't have time to organize on time. It goes down to deal or no deal : do or die.
The move would be to seek with EU the best tweak possible to the WA + PD to sell to its public audience, the BoJoDeal, and offer to Parliament a : "do BJD or die (no deal)" vote for the Parliament...

Does it makes sense or I have misread?


That is how I understood it and what you say makes sense. Here’s a clip from the interview, feel free to draw your own conclusions...

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/ ... 85478?s=21
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1225
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:34 pm

par13del wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
It is true to say that Parliament hasn't done itself any favours over what it wants and has contributed to the current impasse (as well as Theresa May putting herself in that position to an extent by calling a GE in 2017 when she didn't need to).

It's also true to say that a few MP's who have previously voted against the WA have now said they would vote for it (e.g. my local MP, who also said in the same interview she would rather revoke Article 50 than go for no-deal) and there are some who represent leave-voting constituencies who voted against the WA yet are also against the second referendum on the grounds it would be a breach of voters trust (my local MP again :banghead:).

How do you explain that the current PM also changed his vote and voted in favour of the WA when the No Deal supporters in parliament still voted No....


It’s quite simple. Because when May was still PM, it was becoming clear it was either Brexit with the WA as the deal or no Brexit. She made a lot of references about the prospect of there being no Brexit if the WA wasn’t voted for and some of the Brexiteers such as Johnson and Rees-Mogg were beginning to realise that was the only way Brexit was going to happen at that time. Remember, May was immune from a VNC within the Tory party having fought off one challenge and they wouldn’t dare vote against her in another VNC within Parliament (which she also survived) as they were smart enough to realise it would have probably led to a general election, so by at least voting for the WA then and getting Brexit they could come back to getting rid of May at a later date and particularly once her immunity period within the party had ended. The others who continued to vote against the WA were either dreaming of unicorns or wanted the hardest Brexit going, as well as not realising this wasn’t the final state of what the UK-EU relationship and trade deal would look like moving forward.

Since May has now left, those who came round to voting for the WA have simply reverted to type having bought into Johnson's pledge to leave on 31st October come what may.

Remember, politicians have a knack of blowing in a particular way when it suits their agenda.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:56 pm

Am I the only one that finds it a bit strange that the queen acted on advice from the PM when it comes to prorouging parliament, making parliament de facto controlled by the government. Wouldn't it make more sense for the speaker to be the one in charge of parliamentary sessions?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But the queen did intervene with Parliament, ultimatelly she decided to rubber-stamp the stupid request of the Prime Minister, a question never should have laid before her, but once did, it is a political decision she made to block parliament from discussing Brexit.


No, she hasn't. She's just performed her figurehead duty. The PM has interfered with the normal workings of Parliament, not the Queen. You cannot expect the Queen to take such a decision, she just won't. While in theory she could have declined the request, she was never going to. Ever.

I'm no Royalist by any stretch of the imagination, but the Queen has done nothing wrong. Boris Johnson is the architect of this, the Queen is an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire.


Sure, I completely understand, I live in a constitutional monarchy myself. Yes, Boris Johnson is primarily to blame, like I said, he should not have put her in that position. But in the end, and there is no way around it, she had a choice and that makes it a political decision.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:20 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
scbriml wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Months ago, I asked is if the Queen could do something to possibly stop the Brexit process. Guess with what has happened today with the actions of the Queen as to suspend a sitting Parliament, I guess I got my answer. It is a dark day in the history of the UK, perhaps the worst since the bombings in WW II.


The Queen was never going to do anything other than agree to the PM's request. :shakehead:

Politically, she's nothing more than a figurehead and a rubber stamp. I'm not sure what you think she could, or would, do.


But if you look at other European countries; "rubber-stamp royals" have actually intervened before to bang some heads together over constitutional impasses. Belgium, I'm pretty sure, and I think maybe Spain as well.


In Spain, the monarch made Spain again in a democracy again. In The Netherlands it is known that the monarch did influence who talked to each other by appointing liaisons between to parties to form a government (that right has been taken away from the monarch luckily).

In this case, she couldnot made any other decision than to rubber-stamp it. otherwise she could have refused and should have resigned. It could be done, but the consequences would have been there, but then again, just rubber stamp things does have its own consequences, an order is an order attitude.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:30 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Am I the only one that finds it a bit strange that the queen acted on advice from the PM when it comes to prorouging parliament, making parliament de facto controlled by the government. Wouldn't it make more sense for the speaker to be the one in charge of parliamentary sessions?


No thst is indeed strange, but the UK has some very old traditions and the House of Commons is routed in those. In a democracy, Parliament should be the highest authority, and it is indeed strange defacto the Prime Minister can send its boss away in order to do drive-through policy not wanted by his boss. The Parliament should be sovereign.

Accidentally, this was exactly the argument made by the resident Brexitremist when the Parlement voted the Withdraw Agreement down. And now they defend Johnson, so we now see that their argument was phony, it was just opportunistic.

That just shows that the Brexitremist went from extremist to the fanatic level of Brexit, they truly don't care what happens as long as their prime objective is met. It is the same mechanism of Islam, Christian, Boedistic or whatever your belief is and take that to the ultime level.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:56 am

An article in the most pro remain tabloid that actully talks about what most pro leave have been saying for some time.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ve-no-deal
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11107
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:06 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:



If you actully read it it says that the above does not apply to NI/ROI trade, frictionless trade was only meant for the Irish border.


Ah... A101 trying to rewrite history again... no border whatsoever is between NI & ROI is an issue,but the leave campaigners promised no change regarding access to the common market, and any added anything is friction.

“After we Vote Leave, there won’t be a sudden change that disrupts the economy.” – Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Michael Gove ... this is sudden, and quite obviously disruptive..
“free movement of workers to and from the UK should continue to ensure Britain remained within the single market” Daniel Hannan
Even Boris "no-idea-what-truth-is" Johnson himself argued that Britons still to be able to work in the EU and for access to the single market in the Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... --and-alw/

best regards
Thomas


Nope you post refer to frictionless trade, that was only applicable to the Irish border. So no rewrite of history


Your lies are getting bolder and bolder every day.

Leave, BoJo himself, promised access to the single market, so *nothing* in that letter should be required to continue trade. Trade in the single market is friction less.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
Posts: 4877
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:07 am

A101 wrote:
If you actully read it it says that the above does not apply to NI/ROI trade, frictionless trade was only meant for the Irish border.


Which raises the question why they exclude ROI. If it was excluded on the basis that they don't expect anything to change, than that assumption seems to be wrong and thus the instructions are not correct/complete. Moreover, it also goes against the UK government position that it will ensure "frictionless trade" between NI and ROI based on a technical solution. Therefore either the information is incomplete/incorrect or there is a disconnect between the UK government and HMRC.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21303
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:12 am

A101 wrote:
An article in the most pro remain tabloid that actully talks about what most pro leave have been saying for some time.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ve-no-deal

That's an opinion piece by an external author, not researched Guardian reporting.

Do you really not understand the difference?

If you really want his undeliverable promises in a nutshell, sourced, dated and linked, this is it:
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/i ... 1563867386

And he has indeed promised tariff-free trade with the EU with full access to the Single Market, neither of which he's actually delivering on his actual course.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:24 am

A101 wrote:
An article in the most pro remain tabloid that actully talks about what most pro leave have been saying for some time.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ve-no-deal


it's an opinion piece, but ok, it is interesting. It only says that Parlement can't make policy and goes on to proclaim that it didn't make policy, e.g. direct the government what will be passed. And then goes on to say, the EU is the one who should brake the deadlock for the UK - e.g. exporting your Brexit problem yet again -. If you want to break a deadlock of a democratically elected body, there is a simple solution: go back to the electorate. And actually the most logical thing to do is a binding referendum with 3 choices: remain, WA plus political declaration, a hard Brexit. Then we know what the electorate want. Now we don't.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10177
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:31 am

Klaus wrote:
If you really want his undeliverable promises in a nutshell, sourced, dated and linked, this is it:
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/i ... 1563867386


That's not fair, Klaus, actually bringing facts to the table in a post-fact world. :lol:

Anyhow, I am sure A101 will mention that it was Camaron who said that leaving the EU means no deals and he was in charge than. And now is Boris Johnson, following the same reasoning, we can conclude that Johnson wants a Norway style Brexit or a Brino.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11107
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:34 am

Dutchy wrote:
Then we know what the electorate want. Now we don't.


well, everybody knows what the electorate wants, if leave had any hope of getting support, there would be a referendum as quick as can be arranged.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A101
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:43 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Ah... A101 trying to rewrite history again... no border whatsoever is between NI & ROI is an issue,but the leave campaigners promised no change regarding access to the common market, and any added anything is friction.

“After we Vote Leave, there won’t be a sudden change that disrupts the economy.” – Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Michael Gove ... this is sudden, and quite obviously disruptive..
“free movement of workers to and from the UK should continue to ensure Britain remained within the single market” Daniel Hannan
Even Boris "no-idea-what-truth-is" Johnson himself argued that Britons still to be able to work in the EU and for access to the single market in the Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... --and-alw/

best regards
Thomas


Nope you post refer to frictionless trade, that was only applicable to the Irish border. So no rewrite of history


Your lies are getting bolder and bolder every day.

Leave, BoJo himself, promised access to the single market, so *nothing* in that letter should be required to continue trade. Trade in the single market is friction less.

best regards
Thomas


Well the post in question was related to the letter which I think was from treasury in which you referred directly to frictionless trade and how that was going to happen( for some reason it has been deleted) it correctly stated it would not apply at the Irish border, you are the one who is referring to past comment on whatever BJ has said in the Tele which is not directly related to the letter you presented earlier
 
A101
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:46 am

    LJ wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    If you actully read it it says that the above does not apply to NI/ROI trade, frictionless trade was only meant for the Irish border.


    Which raises the question why they exclude ROI. If it was excluded on the basis that they don't expect anything to change, than that assumption seems to be wrong and thus the instructions are not correct/complete. Moreover, it also goes against the UK government position that it will ensure "frictionless trade" between NI and ROI based on a technical solution. Therefore either the information is incomplete/incorrect or there is a disconnect between the UK government and HMRC.



    Well I can’t reread it as it’s gone to verify what you have said.
     
    A101
    Posts: 1293
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

    Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:01 am

    Klaus wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    An article in the most pro remain tabloid that actully talks about what most pro leave have been saying for some time.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ve-no-deal

    That's an opinion piece by an external author, not researched Guardian reporting.

    Do you really not understand the difference?

    If you really want his undeliverable promises in a nutshell, sourced, dated and linked, this is it:
    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/i ... 1563867386

    And he has indeed promised tariff-free trade with the EU with full access to the Single Market, neither of which he's actually delivering on his actual course.



    It seems you don’t, did I make a distinction on who actully wrote it no I didn’t, and FYI the definition of opinion piece is “an article in which the writer expresses their personal opinion, typically one which is controversial or provocative, about a particular issue or item of news.”
     
    User avatar
    seahawk
    Posts: 8842
    Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

    Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

    Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:31 am

    The people already voted to leave. Now it is time to deliver.
     
    Reinhardt
    Posts: 224
    Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

    Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

    Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:52 am

    seahawk wrote:
    The people already voted to leave. Now it is time to deliver.


    The sarcasm is never ending with you :D
     
    A101
    Posts: 1293
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

    Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:59 am

    Reinhardt wrote:
    seahawk wrote:
    The people already voted to leave. Now it is time to deliver.


    The sarcasm is never ending with you :D



    I actually quite enjoy it, some of it is pretty good

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: FTMCPIUS, Pi7472000 and 37 guests

    Popular Searches On Airliners.net

    Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

    Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

    Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

    Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

    Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

    Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

    Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

    Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

    Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

    Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos