tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:23 am

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:

Nope you post refer to frictionless trade, that was only applicable to the Irish border. So no rewrite of history


Your lies are getting bolder and bolder every day.

Leave, BoJo himself, promised access to the single market, so *nothing* in that letter should be required to continue trade. Trade in the single market is friction less.

best regards
Thomas


Well the post in question was related to the letter which I think was from treasury in which you referred directly to frictionless trade and how that was going to happen


Well, actually it describes how to easy the pain (=friction) of the additional layers of bureaucracy and doesn´t even mention tariffs (=opposite of frictionless):

Plus buying software, training people, register here and there, you know.. the stuff you have to do when trading on 3rd world level. And by 3rd world level i mean that single other country dealing on WTO rules, that is exempt from paying tariffs pretty much anywhere they want to ship to...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... raders.pdf

"frictionless trade and how that was going to happen" is quite a stretch when describing a level of friction only embargoed places can surpass.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:28 am

One of the worst short-term affects of Brexit will be on the many 1000's who are from EU countries and have worked in the UK for years, even decades and won't be able to do so anymore due to Brexit. They will have to return to their home countries as won't be covered by NHS, won't be able to keep their jobs, won't be able to get social benefits. They will lose family, friends, pension and other benefits. They worked in offices, homes, farms, hospitals, take care of the children and elderly. I can't link it, but saw in the USA a video clip from Sky News of a women from Portugal who has worked in the UK for 20 years at a protest giving a very passionate plea and comments on just what I noted above. It dramatizes a very ugly truth of Brexit on real people.

Of course it works the other way with UK citizens living and working in the EU, including expat communities in coastal Spain for example who may have to return home to the UK as won't have access to affordable health care or other benefits as Brexit kicks in on the road to perdition.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:10 am

A101 wrote:
Well the post in question was related to the letter which I think was from treasury in which you referred directly to frictionless trade and how that was going to happen( for some reason it has been deleted) it correctly stated it would not apply at the Irish border, you are the one who is referring to past comment on whatever BJ has said in the Tele which is not directly related to the letter you presented earlier


It doesn't state it would not apply to the Irish border, it states that Her Majesty's government tries to do it, all the difference in the world.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:17 am

ltbewr wrote:
One of the worst short-term affects of Brexit will be on the many 1000's who are from EU countries and have worked in the UK for years, even decades and won't be able to do so anymore due to Brexit. They will have to return to their home countries as won't be covered by NHS, won't be able to keep their jobs, won't be able to get social benefits. They will lose family, friends, pension and other benefits. They worked in offices, homes, farms, hospitals, take care of the children and elderly. I can't link it, but saw in the USA a video clip from Sky News of a women from Portugal who has worked in the UK for 20 years at a protest giving a very passionate plea and comments on just what I noted above. It dramatizes a very ugly truth of Brexit on real people.

Of course it works the other way with UK citizens living and working in the EU, including expat communities in coastal Spain for example who may have to return home to the UK as won't have access to affordable health care or other benefits as Brexit kicks in on the road to perdition.


In many EU countries, UK citizens have been granted - temporary - rights to stay, in order to get a deal done, this is regardless of what the UK does with EU citizens. But Spain, for instance, does make it reciprocate, so there might be a problem for British citizens in Spain if the no-deal scenario is followed through. Don't know how it will work in the UK though.

And it is absolutely abominable for all citizens affected by this, either in the EU of in GB. The uncertainty alone, if you don't know if you can stay in your home in 100 days from now. This isn't good governmenship by any standard. Companies might be in trouble, but ordinary citizens should be given at least 2 years to adapt to a new situation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:35 am

tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Your lies are getting bolder and bolder every day.

Leave, BoJo himself, promised access to the single market, so *nothing* in that letter should be required to continue trade. Trade in the single market is friction less.

best regards
Thomas


Well the post in question was related to the letter which I think was from treasury in which you referred directly to frictionless trade and how that was going to happen


Well, actually it describes how to easy the pain (=friction) of the additional layers of bureaucracy and doesn´t even mention tariffs (=opposite of frictionless):

Plus buying software, training people, register here and there, you know.. the stuff you have to do when trading on 3rd world level. And by 3rd world level i mean that single other country dealing on WTO rules, that is exempt from paying tariffs pretty much anywhere they want to ship to...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... raders.pdf

"frictionless trade and how that was going to happen" is quite a stretch when describing a level of friction only embargoed places can surpass.

best regards
Thomas


And all that is electronic and as it says you have the option of using a customs agent broker or not. No one I believe has said the process would not change, but it’s no different from importing from any third nation for which we will be.

And yes there will be problems at the beginning until business become more aware of the procedures. Storm in a teacup.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:38 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Well the post in question was related to the letter which I think was from treasury in which you referred directly to frictionless trade and how that was going to happen( for some reason it has been deleted) it correctly stated it would not apply at the Irish border, you are the one who is referring to past comment on whatever BJ has said in the Tele which is not directly related to the letter you presented earlier


It doesn't state it would not apply to the Irish border, it states that Her Majesty's government tries to do it, all the difference in the world.



Here ya go word for word:

The actions set out in this letter do not apply to importing and/or exporting goods between Northern Ireland and Ireland. The government will do everything in our power to avoid a hard border whatever the circumstances. We will write to you with information about this as soon as we can.



As I said all along the original context of my reply frictionless trade on the Irish border
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:41 am

Reinhardt wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The people already voted to leave. Now it is time to deliver.


The sarcasm is never ending with you :D


But it is time to deliver. They let the people vote for domestic goals, they failed to agree on a withdrawal agreement, now they want to stop the no deal Brexit but also can not find a majority to revoke. This has to end one way or the other. Either do the mea culpa thing, declare that the damage of leaving the EU would be unbearable and revoke or leave the hard way, but end the uncertainty and most importantly fulfil the responsibilities towards the people. In a representative democracy you can either do what the people want or tell them that what they want would be very bad and do something different. But the time of doing nothing has to end.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:56 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Then we know what the electorate want. Now we don't.


well, everybody knows what the electorate wants, if leave had any hope of getting support, there would be a referendum as quick as can be arranged.


Good point.

Instead they've managed to keep spinning the "will of the people" guff so much that Brexiteers are genuinely convinced they have some kind of majority... the polls have said otherwise for a year already.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:01 pm

A101 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
A101 wrote:

Well the post in question was related to the letter which I think was from treasury in which you referred directly to frictionless trade and how that was going to happen


Well, actually it describes how to easy the pain (=friction) of the additional layers of bureaucracy and doesn´t even mention tariffs (=opposite of frictionless):

Plus buying software, training people, register here and there, you know.. the stuff you have to do when trading on 3rd world level. And by 3rd world level i mean that single other country dealing on WTO rules, that is exempt from paying tariffs pretty much anywhere they want to ship to...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... raders.pdf

"frictionless trade and how that was going to happen" is quite a stretch when describing a level of friction only embargoed places can surpass.

best regards
Thomas


And all that is electronic.


.... and that means it is frictionless how?

Oh yeah, it doesn´t. I now know you never ever shipped anything across a customs border commercially ever. And if you claim you did, you are either lying about it or you are lying about how frictionless that is.

In one of the other Brexit threats i posted the tracking information for a shipment to Israel, a country that has far, far better trade conditions with the EU than the UK will have come November first, and despite the "all electronic frictionsless" customs stuff it was stuck in customs for, i believe, 24 days.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1189
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:14 pm

seahawk wrote:
In a representative democracy you can either do what the people want or tell them that what they want would be very bad and do something different.


The second point is most important. For all the rhetoric about how Brexit must be delivered etc., MP's need to remember they are elected - and paid - to make decisions that are in the best interests of the country, not just party ideology. Brexit is no different in that respect, particularly considering it's a major constitutional change that many people born after 1973 haven't experienced before.

Boris Johnson was quoted earlier today about the public not forgiving politicians for failing to deliver Brexit. He would say that, but then the public will also not forgive politicians for presiding over no-deal becoming a reality if the predicted chaos and economic recession follows and impacts people's daily lives. As much as I'm against leaving the EU, Ruth Davidson was right in her resignation speech yesterday when she said that MP's have wasted three opportunities to banish the threat of no-deal and to get rid of the threat of no-deal they need to come out and say they would support a deal if it came back to the Commons for a fourth time (whether it's May's WA or a revised agreement without things such as the backstop is open to interpretation).
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
In many EU countries, UK citizens have been granted - temporary - rights to stay, in order to get a deal done, this is regardless of what the UK does with EU citizens. But Spain, for instance, does make it reciprocate, so there might be a problem for British citizens in Spain if the no-deal scenario is followed through. Don't know how it will work in the UK though.

And it is absolutely abominable for all citizens affected by this, either in the EU of in GB. The uncertainty alone, if you don't know if you can stay in your home in 100 days from now. This isn't good governmenship by any standard. Companies might be in trouble, but ordinary citizens should be given at least 2 years to adapt to a new situation.


Given Home Office incompetence over the years, I genuinely fear for a Windrush 2.0 scandal affecting EU-nation expats living in the UK at some point in the short, medium or long-term.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
One of the worst short-term affects of Brexit will be on the many 1000's who are from EU countries and have worked in the UK for years, even decades and won't be able to do so anymore due to Brexit. They will have to return to their home countries as won't be covered by NHS, won't be able to keep their jobs, won't be able to get social benefits. They will lose family, friends, pension and other benefits. They worked in offices, homes, farms, hospitals, take care of the children and elderly. I can't link it, but saw in the USA a video clip from Sky News of a women from Portugal who has worked in the UK for 20 years at a protest giving a very passionate plea and comments on just what I noted above. It dramatizes a very ugly truth of Brexit on real people.

Of course it works the other way with UK citizens living and working in the EU, including expat communities in coastal Spain for example who may have to return home to the UK as won't have access to affordable health care or other benefits as Brexit kicks in on the road to perdition.


In many EU countries, UK citizens have been granted - temporary - rights to stay, in order to get a deal done, this is regardless of what the UK does with EU citizens. But Spain, for instance, does make it reciprocate, so there might be a problem for British citizens in Spain if the no-deal scenario is followed through. Don't know how it will work in the UK though.


The right to stay has no automatic effect on issues like pensions and health care i. Any regulation which incorporates provisions for EU nationals only will be affected and British nationals in the EU will experience the consequences as of November 1st.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:00 pm

seahawk wrote:
But the time of doing nothing has to end.

For the EU as well. It’s time to plan for the future and not to waste so much time on this mess.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:34 pm

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
A101 wrote:
An article in the most pro remain tabloid that actully talks about what most pro leave have been saying for some time.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ve-no-deal

That's an opinion piece by an external author, not researched Guardian reporting.

Do you really not understand the difference?

If you really want his undeliverable promises in a nutshell, sourced, dated and linked, this is it:
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/i ... 1563867386

And he has indeed promised tariff-free trade with the EU with full access to the Single Market, neither of which he's actually delivering on his actual course.



It seems you don’t, did I make a distinction on who actully wrote it no I didn’t, and FYI the definition of opinion piece is “an article in which the writer expresses their personal opinion, typically one which is controversial or provocative, about a particular issue or item of news.”

You were complaining about missing evidence for Boris' lies and fantasy claims and I delivered those to you.

To apparently stunned silence.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:54 pm

seahawk wrote:
The people already voted to leave. Now it is time to deliver.

The question asked of the people was do you want to leave the EU, why this is so confusing is mind boggling.
The question actually meant the WA (which never existed at the time of the vote), Customs Union, Norway Plus, Canada Style, the fact of the matter is that the people never stated which of those options they wanted, hence the need for a new vote with a much more simple question.
Really can't make this stuff up....
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:00 pm

A101 wrote:
And all that is electronic and as it says you have the option of using a customs agent broker or not. No one I believe has said the process would not change, but it’s no different from importing from any third nation for which we will be.

And yes there will be problems at the beginning until business become more aware of the procedures. Storm in a teacup.

No, sheer fantasy!

These electronic delusions could only possibly work when the participating countries had a level of regulation and enforcement alignment which was in fact present in the EU, but which Brexit exactly destroys again, pulling the carpet out from under all these imaginary "solutions".

Even now while it's still in the EU the UK has already demonstrated that the required level of trust doesn't even exist now with the UK already as an EU member failing to actually enforce standing rules and regulations, so becoming a third country with declared intentions of even further divergence there is exactly zero probability of such electronic measures making any difference.

Those ideas are completely worthless as actual solutions – their only purpose is to maintain the pretense of having any kind of plan to the dwindling section among the UK domestic audience which actually still believes anything Boris says.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:48 pm

par13del wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The people already voted to leave. Now it is time to deliver.

The question asked of the people was do you want to leave the EU, why this is so confusing is mind boggling.
The question actually meant the WA (which never existed at the time of the vote), Customs Union, Norway Plus, Canada Style, the fact of the matter is that the people never stated which of those options they wanted, hence the need for a new vote with a much more simple question.
Really can't make this stuff up....


Sorry, I disagree. The original vote was non-binding and now options for leaving have been explored, agreements have been negotiated and rejected, it is time for the members of parliament to do their job, as it is a representative democracy and they must now weight the risks and benefits for the UK and come to a conclusion. You can not give this back to the people, because then it will be just another round of catchy slogans, false facts and believes. Member of parliament are meant to talk to experts, inform themselves and then make a decision, you can hardly expect the public to grasp all possible consequences of the decision, much less being able to distinguish facts from false facts, risks from chances and so on.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:05 pm

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