A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 10:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You seem to forget that the UK has asked for an extension, not the EU.


No haven’ forgotten who asked for the extension, TM gambled on leaving up till the last minute might have gotten her WA across the line, there was no time for anything except no deal she knew it parliment knew it as did Brussels.

Now Brussels and TM is gambling on the extension will get the WA over the line, but the WA has no chance of succeeding in its present form.

Dutchy wrote:
You seem to forget the Parlement also sad that they will not do a no-deal Brexit. You seem to forget there is a 3rd way, except the compromise which is the WA.


The only way no deal cannot happen if no other agreement is reached and by revoking A50, they can talk all they want until they revoke the European Withdrawal Act no deal is the default


Dutchy wrote:

You can see that the EU is getting fat up with the UK, so the chances that they will give in another time to the demands of the British are slim at best, so then it is still the choice of the UK Parlement.....


They may be fed up with it as with a majority of the UK electorate, but if they are so fed up with it they could have stopped the extension in their tracks.and shoot the horse and put it out of its misery........... the EU is gambling just as much as TM
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 11:01 pm

A101 wrote:
the EU is gambling just as much as TM


No. The EU is gambling must less than British Parlement is gambling. It is not between equal partners. But I guess it is a step up from the old mantra: they need us more than we need them.
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Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 03, 2019 11:44 pm

A101 wrote:
They may be fed up with it as with a majority of the UK electorate, but if they are so fed up with it they could have stopped the extension in their tracks.and shoot the horse and put it out of its misery...........

It is utterly insane that you're wishing for that to be done to your own country.

the EU is gambling just as much as TM

All the Brexit fanatics just keep forgetting that what's at stake is only the existential future of the UK.

We in the EU27 will keep everything – all connections, all treaties, all partners, even an ever further increasing chunk of the UK economy. The UK, on the other hand, is simply abandoning all that with a no deal Brexit.

It boggles the mind that this is not the UK's worst enemies doing that to it, but a minority among its own population.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 1:24 am

Klaus wrote:
It is utterly insane that you're wishing for that to be done to your own country.

Would I rather we left in an orderly fashion, yes I would.....do I want the UK to enter a bad deal that treats the UK as a vassal no I don’t

Klaus wrote:
All the Brexit fanatics just keep forgetting that what's at stake is only the existential future of the UK.


Just another way you are saying leavers are uneducated uncouth unemployed peasant‘s who should not be aloud to vote on such important national matters.

Klaus wrote:
We in the EU27 will keep everything – all connections, all treaties, all partners,


That’s fine for you and your country if the majority had a voted in referenda and wanted to remain in the EU.

Klaus wrote:
even an ever further increasing chunk of the UK economy.

Well you actually can’t say that because you have no idea if we will actually still import the same amount from the EU once we leave, I’m sure othe countries would like to increase their export quotas with the UK


Klaus wrote:
The UK, on the other hand, is simply abandoning all that with a no deal Brexit.


No not abandoning per say realigning in the best interests of the UK


Klaus wrote:
It boggles the mind that this is not the UK's worst enemies doing that to it, but a minority among its own population.


That’s what a democracy does we are not a Communist state, but once again it was the majority who voted leave not the minority. If the government acted for the minority they would not have enacted the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018(UK)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 7:13 am

A101 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
The UK, on the other hand, is simply abandoning all that with a no deal Brexit.


No not abandoning per say realigning in the best interests of the UK


This simply not true, this is an unicorn. Currently, the UK has the best trade deal with the EU as possible, it is a single marked. So if the UK leaves, by definition, the deal will be worse. For the rest of the world: in all trade deals the EU has is one clause which state that countries can't make a better deal than which is done with the EU. As for countries where the EU doesn't have a deal with: the UK will be the junior partner and when the EU does it trade deal it will always be better.
So your statement is utter bogus, it can't be true given the circumstances.
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 8:03 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.


You clearly know nothing about British politics.

These were local elections.

Hardly an interpretation on the publics desired outcomes of Brexit.

Although a lot of Brexit supporters did not vote in the local elections.

Lets see how much of the vote the Brexit party get come the EU elections. They’ve got my vote.


And most importantly the Brexit party was not participating. The only party that promises a real Brexit was not on the ballot.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 8:29 am

seahawk wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.


You clearly know nothing about British politics.

These were local elections.

Hardly an interpretation on the publics desired outcomes of Brexit.

Although a lot of Brexit supporters did not vote in the local elections.

Lets see how much of the vote the Brexit party get come the EU elections. They’ve got my vote.


And most importantly the Brexit party was not participating. The only party that promises a real Brexit was not on the ballot.


UKIP doesn't want a hard Brexit? :roll:
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 10:04 am

Dutchy wrote:

This simply not true, this is an unicorn.


No unicorns it exactly what I said a “realignment” on who the UK trades with the rest of the world

Dutchy wrote:
Currently, the UK has the best trade deal with the EU as possible,


On paper internally, trade with the EU is declining trade with third countries is increasing, but also try telling that to Spanish wine makers who the French stopped their products at the border and opened the valves to release to ground

Dutchy wrote:
it is a single marked. So if the UK leaves, by definition, the deal will be worse


Only if we continue to source within the majority of imports EU, well if importing from third countries

Dutchy wrote:

For the rest of the world: in all trade deals the EU has is one clause which state that countries can't make a better deal than which is done with the EU. As for countries where the EU doesn't have a deal with: the UK will be the junior partner and when the EU does it trade deal it will always be better.


No they don’t, I suggest you actually take the time to see which agreements have MFN clauses in their agreements with the EU. I also have not suggested it was going up be easy once we leave the EU but your junior partner assertions are just plain rubbish, each side negotiates to try and gain the upper hand it’s a fact of life. In essence these same MFN rules can also be built into agreements with other nations can also be replicated so the UK when reaching agreements with other countries dealing with the EU could receive the same basic conditions when those countries deal with the EU until the agreements are in place we will just have to wait and see.

The elephants in the room are the US and China neither country has FTA with the EU are you being disadvantaged trade with behemoths under WTO rules, under WTO rules when no FTA is agreed trade between the EU/UK we all get the same conditions as you trade even being as you say the junior partner as is currently enjoyed now so we ain’t losing anything there when compared to the EU.

Article I of WTO’s General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT, 1947), and Article II of the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS, 1994). these MFN clauses are designed to prevent a country from discriminating between WTO members, by requiring each country to extend to all other WTO members any preferential treatment granted to another party. More specifically, Article II of the GATS states:

“With respect to any measure covered by this Agreement, each Member shall accord immediately and unconditionally to services and service suppliers of any other Member treatment no less favourable than that it accords to like services and service suppliers of any other country.”


Dutchy wrote:
So your statement is utter bogus, it can't be true given the circumstances.




Mmmm
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 10:11 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

This simply not true, this is an unicorn.


No unicorns it exactly what I said a “realignment” on who the UK trades with the rest of the world

Dutchy wrote:
Currently, the UK has the best trade deal with the EU as possible,


On paper internally, trade with the EU is declining trade with third countries is increasing, but also try telling that to Spanish wine makers who the French stopped their products at the border and opened the valves to release to ground

Dutchy wrote:
it is a single marked. So if the UK leaves, by definition, the deal will be worse


Only if we continue to source within the majority of imports EU, well if importing from third countries

Dutchy wrote:

For the rest of the world: in all trade deals the EU has is one clause which state that countries can't make a better deal than which is done with the EU. As for countries where the EU doesn't have a deal with: the UK will be the junior partner and when the EU does it trade deal it will always be better.


No they don’t, I suggest you actually take the time to see which agreements have MFN clauses in their agreements with the EU. I also have not suggested it was going up be easy once we leave the EU but your junior partner assertions are just plain rubbish, each side negotiates to try and gain the upper hand it’s a fact of life. In essence these same MFN rules can also be built into agreements with other nations can also be replicated so the UK when reaching agreements with other countries dealing with the EU could receive the same basic conditions when those countries deal with the EU until the agreements are in place we will just have to wait and see.

The elephants in the room are the US and China neither country has FTA with the EU are you being disadvantaged trade with behemoths under WTO rules, under WTO rules when no FTA is agreed trade between the EU/UK we all get the same conditions as you trade even being as you say the junior partner as is currently enjoyed now so we ain’t losing anything there when compared to the EU.

Article I of WTO’s General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT, 1947), and Article II of the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS, 1994). these MFN clauses are designed to prevent a country from discriminating between WTO members, by requiring each country to extend to all other WTO members any preferential treatment granted to another party. More specifically, Article II of the GATS states:

“With respect to any measure covered by this Agreement, each Member shall accord immediately and unconditionally to services and service suppliers of any other Member treatment no less favourable than that it accords to like services and service suppliers of any other country.”


Dutchy wrote:
So your statement is utter bogus, it can't be true given the circumstances.




Mmmm


You are stubborn and still believe in unicorns. What I don't know is the reason why you continue on this line while Brexitremist themself say it will take 50 years before any economic benefit might emerge. Except the most unicorn believer, everybody agrees that economic benefit is not a valid Brexit argument.
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 10:27 am

Trading with third countries will be beneficial, not only does it open different markets to the UK, it also means that all goods will be imported directly to the UK, which means jobs at harbours and airports, jobs and money that are currently taken away from the UK and found in the EU. Time to take back control.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 10:51 am

seahawk wrote:
Trading with third countries will be beneficial, not only does it open different markets to the UK, it also means that all goods will be imported directly to the UK, which means jobs at harbours and airports, jobs and money that are currently taken away from the UK and found in the EU. Time to take back control.


There is nothing stopping any EU country from trading with 3rd party countries, rather they enjoy the EU trade agreements enabling easier and cheaper trade. It is also worth noticing that even very large 3rd party countries such as e.g. China or the USA is but a fraction of UK trade compared with the EU. Furthermore, existing EU trade deals will prevent the UK from getting equivalent or better deals. Loose-loose-loose in other words.

As for importing directly into the UK, that will require heavy investments in infrastructure. Remind us, if you please, how good is the track record for major public infrastructure developments in the UK?

Taking back control = securing the right to lead a less prosperous and more restricted life, whilst waving a blue passport and jeopardising the peace in Ireland.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 12:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
What I don't know is the reason why you continue on this line while Brexitremist themself say it will take 50 years before any economic benefit might emerge.

JRM has been anti-EU for many years, the 50 year claim was made by him, since you now take that as gospel, do you now also accept all the other things he has said about Brexit, its benefits to the UK and all the negatives he has / had to say about the EU and its institutions including the ECJ?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 12:20 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Nice predictable spin there...

All I did was present the results. Who mentioned "logic" or "barometer"? You're arguing with yourself.


You clearly know nothing about British politics.

These were local elections.


I am seriously getting pissed off with Brexiteers inability to comprehend not only concepts but even simple language. For the last time:

It is a simple, undeniable FACT that pro remain parties did extremely well at these local elections and that pro Brexit parties did very badly. THAT IS ALL I SAID.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 12:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:

You are stubborn and still believe in unicorns.


Do you have a unicorn fetish or something?



Dutchy wrote:
What I don't know is the reason why you continue on this line while Brexitremist themself say it will take 50 years before any economic benefit might emerge.


And as I’ve told you before leaving the EU is just not economic, but you go right ahead in your next post about living in the past and the British Empire blah blah......


Dutchy wrote:
Except the most unicorn believer, everybody agrees that economic benefit is not a valid Brexit argument.


So say’s the romancer
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 12:28 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I am not following UK politics closely, but the Lib Dems are like the UK version of D66?


Ha ha ha! I have voted for both at some point over the decades so I suppose that's a yes.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 1:06 pm

The Brexit party is a rag tag group of anti abortion, sexists, bigots and terrorist appeasement only jumping into it so the can get elected. UKIP has more dignity - and that’s saying something.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 1:09 pm

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What I don't know is the reason why you continue on this line while Brexitremist themself say it will take 50 years before any economic benefit might emerge.

JRM has been anti-EU for many years, the 50 year claim was made by him, since you now take that as gospel, do you now also accept all the other things he has said about Brexit, its benefits to the UK and all the negatives he has / had to say about the EU and its institutions including the ECJ?


Strange reasoning. I don't believe a Brexit will benefit Great Britain economically, not now, not in ten years, not in 50 years, not in a 100 years. a hard Brexit will be even worse. I have reasoned it and to top it of with even a hard core Brexitremist whom doesn't believe that it will benefit the UK in 50 years. So case closed on the perceived economic benefits.

Why would that mean that I believe everything JRM has said to be true? I believe very little Rees Mogg has said to be true and it is easily shown to be untrue. Give you an example, he believes that getting rid of stringent EU rules, will open the marked for Australian beef. This will mean, by his own admission, that the Australian rules are followed (hormone injected beef, but never mind that) and that the rules are enforced by Australian controllers. So in fact he is handing the soveranity of beef control over to Australia for Australian produced beef and if the UK still maintains that no hormone injections are allowed in the UK, the UK farmers will be forced out of the market. This is just a small example of the big picture of Jacob Rees Mogg and his view of "taking back control".
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 1:14 pm

A101 wrote:
And as I’ve told you before leaving the EU is just not economic, but you go right ahead in your next post about living in the past and the British Empire blah blah......


Glad you agree that Brexit will not have any economic benefit. Just don't come up with any economic reasoning anymore.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Give you an example, he believes that getting rid of stringent EU rules, will open the marked for Australian beef. This will mean, by his own admission, that the Australian rules are followed (hormone injected beef, but never mind that) and that the rules are enforced by Australian controllers. So in fact he is handing the soveranity of beef control over to Australia for Australian produced beef and if the UK still maintains that no hormone injections are allowed in the UK, the UK farmers will be forced out of the market. This is just a small example of the big picture of Jacob Rees Mogg and his view of "taking back control".


What a load rubbish Australia would no more control UK beef product standards than the EU would once we leave the EU, the UK can still maintain EU standards if they wish but it has to be compliant with WTO rules for which the EU lost it’s case at the WTO with the US/CA. what actually is the EU standards are infact protectionism measures by another name which actually go against the supposed principles of the EU in respect to free trade.

Oh by the way the EU did not provide scientific evidence that hormone injected beef will lead to health concerns in humans


Dutchy wrote:

Glad you agree that Brexit will not have any economic benefit. Just don't come up with any economic reasoning anymore.


I didn’t say that we will not have any economic benifts which we could have far from on it, easing of regulatory burdens imposed by the EU can have an impact on the consumer confidence which in turn increases discretionary spending which I turn increases the economic benifits to the UK
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sat May 04, 2019 11:13 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Give you an example, he believes that getting rid of stringent EU rules, will open the marked for Australian beef. This will mean, by his own admission, that the Australian rules are followed (hormone injected beef, but never mind that) and that the rules are enforced by Australian controllers. So in fact he is handing the soveranity of beef control over to Australia for Australian produced beef and if the UK still maintains that no hormone injections are allowed in the UK, the UK farmers will be forced out of the market. This is just a small example of the big picture of Jacob Rees Mogg and his view of "taking back control".


What a load rubbish Australia would no more control UK beef product standards than the EU would once we leave the EU, the UK can still maintain EU standards if they wish but it has to be compliant with WTO rules for which the EU lost it’s case at the WTO with the US/CA. what actually is the EU standards are infact protectionism measures by another name which actually go against the supposed principles of the EU in respect to free trade.


I agree that is rubbish, but this is exactly what Jacob Rees Mogg wants. And he is your primary Brexiteer. If you see it differently, then please elaborate.

A101 wrote:
Oh by the way the EU did not provide scientific evidence that hormone injected beef will lead to health concerns in humans


That is true, but it exposes the different way the EU - including the UK - and Australia (and US for that matter), within the EU you have to provide evidence that it isn't harmful and those countries it is like you say, you can do it until it is proven to be harmful. So if you want to lower the standards, you can once outside the EU.

Dutchy wrote:

Glad you agree that Brexit will not have any economic benefit. Just don't come up with any economic reasoning anymore.


A101 wrote:
I didn’t say that we will not have any economic benifts which we could have far from on it, easing of regulatory burdens imposed by the EU can have an impact on the consumer confidence which in turn increases discretionary spending which I turn increases the economic benifits to the UK


So you are in favor of lowering the standards. The EU itself doesn't rase the regulatory burdens, it just makes them the same across the EU28 (or EU27). If you want the same level of protection and safety, then the regulatory burden will not be lowered. And if you lower the standard, the UK citizen / consumer will get a lesser product. For your companies it means that they will not be able to export to the EU or they have to create two sets of products, lesser for selling locally and full standard for EU countries. This will of course be more expensive.
As for consumer confidence, how would that work, you get a lesser product so I will be more confident? That is a load of dribbel of course.

BTW the EU doesn't impose anything. It has been agreed by the memberstates, including the EU, that a certain regulatory rule will be imposed.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 05, 2019 5:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
I agree that is rubbish, but this is exactly what Jacob Rees Mogg wants. And he is your primary Brexiteer. If you see it differently, then please elaborate.


The EU already has a 45,000-tonne grain-fed beef quota can be accessed by Australia and a number of countries including the US, and I believe the US is pushing for 30 of that be done by the US in the latest round.

What standards the UK will use nobody has actually said yet, but they have been informal talks of a fast tracked FTA between UK/AUNZ if the EU does allow the US to a majority of the quotas then the UK might be looking at AU for their excess production.

All this is speculation at the moment as TM is pushing with all her might in keeping the UK aligned with the EU, which would be at the detriment of making our own FTA’s which would give consumers choice.

Dutchy wrote:
So you are in favor of lowering the standards.


I believe in giving the consumer choice, it is a known fact that organic farming is more expensive as the yeild is not great therefore the cost is greater over a smaller crop, dairy or meat products raised

Dutchy wrote:
The EU itself doesn't rase the regulatory burdens, it just makes them the same across the EU28 (or EU27). If you want the same level of protection and safety, then the regulatory burden will not be lowered. And if you lower the standard, the UK citizen / consumer will get a lesser product.


Im not necessarily saying that foods standards are bad, but it increases costs to the consumer in the EU which is not based on scientific fact which was born out at the WTO

Dutchy wrote:
For your companies it means that they will not be able to export to the EU or they have to create two sets of products, lesser for selling locally and full standard for EU countries. This will of course be more expensive.

As for consumer confidence, how would that work, you get a lesser product so I will be more confident? That is a load of dribbel of course.



This born out of consumerism if their is a market for a product someone will fill it, i travel to Australia regularly and the market their has consumer choice on both types of farming of crops and dairy and meat products, they all compete in the same market


Dutchy wrote:
BTW the EU doesn't impose anything. It has been agreed by the memberstates, including the EU, that a certain regulatory rule will be imposed.



You might not think that but by imposing higher standards it then increases the compliance burden which I turn means the product is more expensive, if you ever travel to Australia their is a marked difference in organic food prices.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 05, 2019 6:07 am

A101 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Except that will never happen. You might get "control" back, perform all the bureaucracy yourselves, but the influence you will never be free from. Your bureaucracy will still be performing the tasks set out by the EU, only now you have to repeat it all at own expense.


What......you think being a member dosnt come with a cost. The only difference between being a member and not is all the cost will now be done in house, the EU will still have the same cost just one less member contributing to it, for which either the EU will reduce the spending in that area or increase the cost to other member countries


The apparatus in Brussels is pretty cost efficient. It will cost the UK at least the same to replicate it all, most likely more. OTOH, the EU member states will only have to cover a 27th of the UKs former bill.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 05, 2019 8:40 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you are in favor of lowering the standards.


I believe in giving the consumer choice, it is a known fact that organic farming is more expensive as the yeild is not great therefore the cost is greater over a smaller crop, dairy or meat products raised


Bio organic grown or foot safety are two different things. Do you feel that the public can make that distinction? I believe not, we need regulations that ensures foot safety and the consumer needs to feel secure in that everything they buy are of a good standard. So no chlorine chickens from the US, no beef on steroids etc. Furthermore, would you like that chicken or other meat is going to compete on the living standards of the animals? Within the EU they are quite high.
I believe the ordinary consumer doesn't want to be bothered with these kind of things, but as a society we want these regulations to make the world a little better and a bit more civilized.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 05, 2019 9:28 am

VSMUT wrote:

The apparatus in Brussels is pretty cost efficient. It will cost the UK at least the same to replicate it all, most likely more. OTOH, the EU member states will only have to cover a 27th of the UKs former bill.


The UK is a net contributor not a net beneficiary, Since 2000 we’ve given the EU £109bn(122b adjusted for inflation) more than we have received. Just because we are a member of the EU dosen’t
mean we do not have the capacity to continue to work in the international arena whilst individual dept may have to expand to take on the workload like FTA majority of the functions already exist in the UK
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 05, 2019 10:10 am

Dutchy wrote:

Bio organic grown or foot safety are two different things.

If you think that that EU beef product standards ar different to organic beef products can you explain the difference between the two?


Remember for GF-HQB no hormones will also include any feed that the animals eat, to get that to European Union Cattle Accreditation standards they sound like organic to me.


Dutchy wrote:

Do you feel that the public can make that distinction?


Are you saying the general consumer are stupid and should have the hand held like a nanny because they can’t think for themselves


Dutchy wrote:
I believe not, we need regulations that ensures foot safety and the consumer needs to feel secure in that everything they buy are of a good standard.


So are saying that only chicken processed in the EU is safe for consumption
or hormones injected beef is substandard and not safe for consumption?

Dutchy wrote:
So no chlorine chickens from the US, no beef on steroids etc. Furthermore, would you like that chicken or other meat is going to compete on the living standards of the animals? Within the EU they are quite high.


And that’s why food industry costs are so high

Dutchy wrote:
I believe the ordinary consumer doesn't want to be bothered with these kind of things, but as a society we want these regulations to make the world a little better and a bit more civilized


I think joe citizen would not give a rats arse as long as there cost of living comes down.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun May 05, 2019 11:45 am

A101 wrote:
I think joe citizen would not give a rats arse as long as there cost of living comes down.


In that case, stay in the EU, you certainly know that the economy will fall behind if you leave. You can have your high standards of food and a high standard of living.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
I think joe citizen would not give a rats arse as long as there cost of living comes down.


In that case, stay in the EU, you certainly know that the economy will fall behind if you leave. You can have your high standards of food and a high standard of living.


Staying in the same system is not going to reduce the cost of living pressures to the low/medium socioeconomic group, different socioeconomic groups have different priorities regarding how they direct their funds.

But as I said while it’s not directly stated by Brussels, the EU is just another form of protectionism which goes against the principles of an open free trade society, by locking out other high productive and safe practices which has been demonstrated at the WTO.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 7:06 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
I think joe citizen would not give a rats arse as long as there cost of living comes down.


In that case, stay in the EU, you certainly know that the economy will fall behind if you leave. You can have your high standards of food and a high standard of living.


Staying in the same system is not going to reduce the cost of living pressures to the low/medium socioeconomic group, different socioeconomic groups have different priorities regarding how they direct their funds.

But as I said while it’s not directly stated by Brussels, the EU is just another form of protectionism which goes against the principles of an open free trade society, by locking out other high productive and safe practices which has been demonstrated at the WTO.


Sure, the EU is a protectionism organization, if you want to see it like that, I will give you this one. Look at it in a different way, we - the EU members - want to have certain standards for our foot, our products, our services.
What will a total open free trade market look like? No tariffs? No standards? What do you think will happen to these low/medium groups?

You are talking about a totally different problem, which will not be solved with a hard Brexit. If you want to help low - medium socioeconomic groups - which I am all for - you need to something about tax and benefits for these groups. That has nothing to do with the EU, taxes and social benefits are solely the domain of the member states.
And as stated before, if there is a hard Brexit with the economic consequences which goes along with that, these groups will feel it too and probably the hardest. So also for these groups, the economic arguments fail spectaculair.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 8:28 am

Dutchy wrote:

I will give you this one. Look at it in a different way, we - the EU members - want to have certain standards for our foot, our products, our services.


Nothing wrong with standards every country’s have them, I just think they are unnecessarily high when compared to others nations which impacts those who can least afford the high farming practice, as I said if there is a market then let the consumer make the decision.


Dutchy wrote:
What will a total open free trade market look like? No tariffs? No standards? What do you think will happen to these low/medium groups?

Increased competition and market forces will dictate most products price on the market, in majority of FTA their will be certain quotas that countries will be allocated and have rules on dumping or saturation of the market so it’s not all one way


Dutchy wrote:
You are talking about a totally different problem, which will not be solved with a hard Brexit. If you want to help low - medium socioeconomic groups - which I am all for - you need to something about tax and benefits for these groups. That has nothing to do with the EU, taxes and social benefits are solely the domain of the member states.


I agree leaving the EU is not the silver bullet to all the UK’s problems, but it will go a long way in looking after UK’s interest first and foremost instead of a collective entity which has a lot of competing issues from 27 other nations the UK is not a utopian society far from it but neither is being in the EU



Dutchy wrote:
And as stated before, if there is a hard Brexit with the economic consequences which goes along with that, these groups will feel it too and probably the hardest. So also for these groups, the economic arguments fail spectaculair.


We all acknowledge that the will be problems in the short term transitioning but it’s pure speculation on the impacts, most economists said the UK would be in a recession soon after we voted for leave, trade will continue in the most immediate future irrespective if we leave with an agreement or not
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 8:49 am

Living will become much cheaper when the food market in the UK is free to global competition. Let the market decide, there is no need for legislation. If people prefer cheap food, so be it.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 4:24 pm

seahawk wrote:
Living will become much cheaper when the food market in the UK is free to global competition. Let the market decide, there is no need for legislation. If people prefer cheap food, so be it.


Great, have no standards at all. Fantastic philosophy. I am so glad that you have no position of power, no offense intended.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 4:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Living will become much cheaper when the food market in the UK is free to global competition. Let the market decide, there is no need for legislation. If people prefer cheap food, so be it.


Great, have no standards at all. Fantastic philosophy. I am so glad that you have no position of power, no offense intended.


It is called Democracy, if the UK decides lower standards or no standards will do, it is their choice.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 5:12 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I will give you this one. Look at it in a different way, we - the EU members - want to have certain standards for our foot, our products, our services.


Nothing wrong with standards every country’s have them, I just think they are unnecessarily high when compared to others nations which impacts those who can least afford the high farming practice, as I said if there is a market then let the consumer make the decision.


Right, no problem. Three things about this:
- I don't think GB was objecting to high standards within the EU. I know Rees-Mogg uses this as an argument, but if he can't get a majority in parlement to accept lower standards, this is quite meaningless.
- My philosophy: consumers must not decide on the grounds of the size of their wallet if they eat healthy or unhealthy food. But I guess you want to make this distinction and not redistribute wealth to accomplish the same thing, but for all with high food standards
- Doing this will make sure you kill of the farming sector in the UK. They have invested to meet the high quality standards of the EU and will not be able to compete against farmers outside the UK (and EU) with lower standards. With a hard Brexit they will suffer enough, with your plan they will be killed al together.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What will a total open free trade market look like? No tariffs? No standards? What do you think will happen to these low/medium groups?

Increased competition and market forces will dictate most products price on the market, in majority of FTA their will be certain quotas that countries will be allocated and have rules on dumping or saturation of the market so it’s not all one way


Three things about this:
- The UK has almost no natural resources, so it is down to price of the workforce and its efficiency. With trading on the WTO rules (going from primair league to the 4th league) will make sure that Britain will have no export anymore, tariffs all around, so it doesn't matter anymore.
- FTA takes ten years to negotiate, so perhaps you have some kind of deal at the end.
- Price will also lead to competition on wages and working condition. For working conditions the UK has little protection and most of the workers protection comes from EU treaties (the same with basic human rights because the UK legs a constitution as such). This will be bad news for the lower and middle classes which you say, you want to protect.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You are talking about a totally different problem, which will not be solved with a hard Brexit. If you want to help low - medium socioeconomic groups - which I am all for - you need to something about tax and benefits for these groups. That has nothing to do with the EU, taxes and social benefits are solely the domain of the member states.


I agree leaving the EU is not the silver bullet to all the UK’s problems, but it will go a long way in looking after UK’s interest first and foremost instead of a collective entity which has a lot of competing issues from 27 other nations the UK is not a utopian society far from it but neither is being in the EU


Leaving the EU is not the silver bullet, it is not a bullet at all. You are trying to connect a real problem with a solution that is totally unconnected. But ok, let's go along with you: which interest of the UK are not being met by the EU27, please be specific as possible about it, 3 examples should be easy to give, right?

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And as stated before, if there is a hard Brexit with the economic consequences which goes along with that, these groups will feel it too and probably the hardest. So also for these groups, the economic arguments fail spectaculair.


We all acknowledge that the will be problems in the short term transitioning but it’s pure speculation on the impacts, most economists said the UK would be in a recession soon after we voted for leave, trade will continue in the most immediate future irrespective if we leave with an agreement or not


That is pure speculation on your part, there are dire consequences if the UK truly falls off the cliff. So your gamble is the the primarily the EU (around 50% of your export) will do some sort of interim deal, before everything falls a part, yeah taking back control :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 5:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Living will become much cheaper when the food market in the UK is free to global competition. Let the market decide, there is no need for legislation. If people prefer cheap food, so be it.


Great, have no standards at all. Fantastic philosophy. I am so glad that you have no position of power, no offense intended.


It is called Democracy, if the UK decides lower standards or no standards will do, it is their choice.


Sure, what is your point? Are more than 50% of the UK parlement for lowering the food standards or get rid of them all together?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 6:52 pm

Can someone answer my quandry regarding regulations. At the moment there are standardised rules / regulations regarding products that have to be met to sell within the EU - everyone has to meet them.

Surely we, as a trading partner, would still have to meet the standards of the country we are selling to if we want to sell to them? It would be too costly to have different production methods to meet different markets so, given the EU is a massive trading partner and we are already geared up to sell to the standad would we not just continue to do so?
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue May 07, 2019 9:44 pm

sbworcs wrote:
Can someone answer my quandry regarding regulations. At the moment there are standardised rules / regulations regarding products that have to be met to sell within the EU - everyone has to meet them.

Surely we, as a trading partner, would still have to meet the standards of the country we are selling to if we want to sell to them? It would be too costly to have different production methods to meet different markets so, given the EU is a massive trading partner and we are already geared up to sell to the standad would we not just continue to do so?


Probably yes. The problem arises when you crash out and trade on WTO rules. You have to meet the standards other wise you will not be allowed to sell your products. Services are far more difficult, financial services are highly regulated - given 2008 not surprisingly -. And given the WTO rules, the highest tariffs are in place for trading with the EU, so unless you produce an unique product, it will be highly unlikely that the UK will be able to sell anything in the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed May 08, 2019 4:52 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Great, have no standards at all. Fantastic philosophy. I am so glad that you have no position of power, no offense intended.


It is called Democracy, if the UK decides lower standards or no standards will do, it is their choice.


Sure, what is your point? Are more than 50% of the UK parlement for lowering the food standards or get rid of them all together?


We will see if they are.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed May 08, 2019 7:44 am

Dutchy wrote:

- I don't think GB was objecting to high standards within the EU. I know Rees-Mogg uses this as an argument, but if he can't get a majority in parliament to accept lower standards, this is quite meaningless.


Once the UK has left the EU it can decide its own standards free from EU influence, they may or may not, I think what's getting lost in translation is its a theoretical debate at the moment because they are just focusing on a WA


Dutchy wrote:
- My philosophy: consumers must not decide on the grounds of the size of their wallet if they eat healthy or unhealthy food. But I guess you want to make this distinction and not redistribute wealth to accomplish the same thing, but for all with high food standards

You seem to want to live in a utopian society, high food prices is an indirect tax on the lower socioeconomic group, in capitalist nations true wealth distribution is as fantasy

Dutchy wrote:
- Doing this will make sure you kill of the farming sector in the UK. They have invested to meet the high quality standards of the EU and will not be able to compete against farmers outside the UK (and EU) with lower standards. With a hard Brexit they will suffer enough, with your plan they will be killed al together.


It certainly has not killed the beef/dairy or vegetable industry in Australia it export both grades of products and consumers have a choice if the want to pay the extra cost for organically produced food products, it will be the same for the UK, if the producer still thinks its viable to produce and have a market then they will continue to do it


Dutchy wrote:
Three things about this:
- The UK has almost no natural resources, so it is down to price of the workforce and its efficiency. With trading on the WTO rules (going from primair league to the 4th league) will make sure that Britain will have no export anymore, tariffs all around, so it doesn't matter anymore.


scaremongering at its best, UK food exports to non EU countries has risen since the referenda, while the exports are for the majority for the EU exports to the EU has declined compared to increases for non EU, once we have left and if it comes via the hard way of a no deal exist even with all the bluster coming from the EU, it will want to negotiate a FTA pdq even if you think that exports to the UK don't matter they will matter as the majority of the EU run a trade surplus to the UK

And no its not the tired story they need us more than we need them, its a fact of life the EU cannot afford to lose market share in the UK


Dutchy wrote:
- FTA takes ten years to negotiate, so perhaps you have some kind of deal at the end.


Their are a lot of variables when conducting FTA's, but if you look at the USA FTA's the average time is 1½ years to negotiate the actual agreement but on average 3½ years to reach the implementation stage,
Jordan's FTA deal with the US the actual negation had taken 4mths but 18mths to implement, the longest so far was Panama with 38 mths to negotiate and implementation 102




Dutchy wrote:
- Price will also lead to competition on wages and working condition. For working conditions the UK has little protection and most of the workers protection comes from EU treaties (the same with basic human rights because the UK legs a constitution as such). This will be bad news for the lower and middle classes which you say, you want to protect.


Supply and demand is what actually relates to wages and working condition, no doubt the UK will need a new industrial strategy to help business in the spectrum, but that's always an ongoing measure whether we stay in the EU or not
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed May 08, 2019 10:42 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

- I don't think GB was objecting to high standards within the EU. I know Rees-Mogg uses this as an argument, but if he can't get a majority in parliament to accept lower standards, this is quite meaningless.


Once the UK has left the EU it can decide its own standards free from EU influence, they may or may not, I think what's getting lost in translation is its a theoretical debate at the moment because they are just focusing on a WA


So you don't even know if this will go through, so you don't even know if going out of the EU will get your "solution" through. Given that your solution will not solve the problem you identified, why did you even bring this up?

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
- My philosophy: consumers must not decide on the grounds of the size of their wallet if they eat healthy or unhealthy food. But I guess you want to make this distinction and not redistribute wealth to accomplish the same thing, but for all with high food standards

You seem to want to live in a utopian society, high food prices is an indirect tax on the lower socioeconomic group, in capitalist nations true wealth distribution is as fantasy


Sure, don't you want to live in utopia? Funny argumentation, indirect tax on lower socioeconomic groups. But let's not discuss our ideal society, that is way of topic and given you are on record to for a hard Brexit you are not routing for lower socioeconomic groups, they will bare the grunt of the problems, as they always do. So it looks a bit silly this line of argumentation.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
- Doing this will make sure you kill of the farming sector in the UK. They have invested to meet the high quality standards of the EU and will not be able to compete against farmers outside the UK (and EU) with lower standards. With a hard Brexit they will suffer enough, with your plan they will be killed al together.


It certainly has not killed the beef/dairy or vegetable industry in Australia it export both grades of products and consumers have a choice if the want to pay the extra cost for organically produced food products, it will be the same for the UK, if the producer still thinks its viable to produce and have a market then they will continue to do it


ok, now I can't make out if you are serious or not? We are not talking about organic produced foods, we are talking about allowing to inject cows and the sort with hormones to stimulate meat "production" or in the case of Americans, chlorine chickens and there must be tons of other examples. We are talking about which minimal standards we want our foot to uphold. We are talking about a philosophy to have protection against harmful foot. EU philosophy - including the UK - says, you have to determent that it is safe and the US and probably Australia as well, until it is proven unsafe you can sell it.

Now, leaving organic food products at a side - not a large portion of the foot production, so we are talking about ordinary foot products. So you effectively want to have a third production line: 1. organic, 2. EU regulated, 3. a broad range of products which will obey all kinds of regulation from other countries. Talking about taking back control.
What will happen, as has happened in all kinds of other products, we will see current UK farmers getting to the lower standards, simply because that will be the standard people buy the most. I happen to think that is not good and the UK citizens deserve to be protected, but that is just me. #taking back control?

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Three things about this:
- The UK has almost no natural resources, so it is down to price of the workforce and its efficiency. With trading on the WTO rules (going from primair league to the 4th league) will make sure that Britain will have no export anymore, tariffs all around, so it doesn't matter anymore.


scaremongering at its best, UK food exports to non EU countries has risen since the referenda, while the exports are for the majority for the EU exports to the EU has declined compared to increases for non EU, once we have left and if it comes via the hard way of a no deal exist even with all the bluster coming from the EU, it will want to negotiate a FTA pdq even if you think that exports to the UK don't matter they will matter as the majority of the EU run a trade surplus to the UK

And no its not the tired story they need us more than we need them, its a fact of life the EU cannot afford to lose market share in the UK


Had to look up what pdq meant, Pretty Darn Quick. Alright, now this interesting. This isn't scaremongering, this is fact, unless you strike a deal you will resort to playing in the 4th division. Current trade with other nations then the EU is governed by trade agreements of the EU, you will loose them all! Actually your argument is the nonsense "they need us more, then we need them".
Merkel is on record that the integrity of the EU is far more important than saving the UK from itself. Only a fool bets on this.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
- FTA takes ten years to negotiate, so perhaps you have some kind of deal at the end.


Their are a lot of variables when conducting FTA's, but if you look at the USA FTA's the average time is 1½ years to negotiate the actual agreement but on average 3½ years to reach the implementation stage,
Jordan's FTA deal with the US the actual negation had taken 4mths but 18mths to implement, the longest so far was Panama with 38 mths to negotiate and implementation 102


Excellent examples. Jordan versus America, what do you think Jordan actually achieved in this. I thought we were talking about a serious FTS were the UK was going to exploit all its strength, my bad, you are talking about taking any deal that is on the table and just give everything away. #taking back control?


A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
- Price will also lead to competition on wages and working condition. For working conditions the UK has little protection and most of the workers protection comes from EU treaties (the same with basic human rights because the UK legs a constitution as such). This will be bad news for the lower and middle classes which you say, you want to protect.


Supply and demand is what actually relates to wages and working condition, no doubt the UK will need a new industrial strategy to help business in the spectrum, but that's always an ongoing measure whether we stay in the EU or not


Ok, working conditions are a supply and demand story? Wages too? Thought you are all in favor of the lower socioeconomic classes, guess that is all a farce.


In conclusion
You are in favor of the hardest form of free market capitalism, everything should be covered by capitalism and everything is well. Ok, read a book, read some academic papers on this and you will educate yourself what it actually means what you are advocating here.

Hint, it is not the sort of country I want to live my life in. And is certainly very bad news for lower socioeconomic classes.

So your post fails spectaculair on two fronts:
- will put socioeconomic groups in a disadvantage position
- in your "plan" you will give a tremendous amount of "control" to other countries
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 4:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
So you don't even know if this will go through, so you don't even know if going out of the EU will get your "solution" through. Given that your solution will not solve the problem you identified, why did you even bring this up?


Actually you were the one who brought it up in the first place talking about standards, and how the UK will fall off a cliff. All I showed is how the UK can lower the cost of living pressures that EU standards impose on the UK within the beef products industry.


Dutchy wrote:
Sure, don't you want to live in utopia? Funny argumentation, indirect tax on lower socioeconomic groups. But let's not discuss our ideal society, that is way of topic and given you are on record to for a hard Brexit you are not routing for lower socioeconomic groups, they will bare the grunt of the problems, as they always do. So it looks a bit silly this line of argumentation.


you cant accept the fact that EU beef production costs are unnecessarily high because of those very standards, the US did provide the scientific evidence that hormone injected cattle is safe for consumption and the WTO ruled against the EU


Dutchy wrote:

ok, now I can't make out if you are serious or not? We are not talking about organic produced foods, we are talking about allowing to inject cows and the sort with hormones to stimulate meat "production" or in the case of Americans, chlorine chickens and there must be tons of other examples. We are talking about which minimal standards we want our foot to uphold. We are talking about a philosophy to have protection against harmful foot. EU philosophy - including the UK - says, you have to determent that it is safe and the US and probably Australia as well, until it is proven unsafe you can sell it.

Now, leaving organic food products at a side - not a large portion of the foot production, so we are talking about ordinary foot products. So you effectively want to have a third production line: 1. organic, 2. EU regulated, 3. a broad range of products which will obey all kinds of regulation from other countries. Talking about taking back control.

Go look at EU beef food standards and then go look at organic beef production and you tell me the difference

Dutchy wrote:
What will happen, as has happened in all kinds of other products, we will see current UK farmers getting to the lower standards, simply because that will be the standard people buy the most. I happen to think that is not good and the UK citizens deserve to be protected, but that is just me. #taking back control?


Yep it certainty is taking back control as the consumer will have a choice, which actually lowers the food cost in the UK


Dutchy wrote:
Had to look up what pdq meant, Pretty Darn Quick. Alright, now this interesting. This isn't scaremongering, this is fact, unless you strike a deal you will resort to playing in the 4th division. Current trade with other nations then the EU is governed by trade agreements of the EU, you will loose them all! Actually your argument is the nonsense "they need us more, then we need them".
Merkel is on record that the integrity of the EU is far more important than saving the UK from itself. Only a fool bets on this.


Yes I'm saying once we leave EU/UK will tie up a FTA pdq because the trade negotiators that will want to avoid a collapse of current trade, EU has a trade surplus with the UK which means you sell more to us then we sell to you the EU cannot afford to lose that, Germany alone has an excess of trade 50B least alone any other country, you think these smaller economy will wont to jeopardise that, your living in la la land there's talk from Merkel and there living in the real world and she knows which side her bread is buttered, as the EU knows that others will be chomping at the bit to increase their own exports at the expense of the EU

Dutchy wrote:
Excellent examples. Jordan versus America, what do you think Jordan actually achieved in this. I thought we were talking about a serious FTS were the UK was going to exploit all its strength, my bad, you are talking about taking any deal that is on the table and just give everything away. #taking back control?


No, I have shown you are incorrect when you said it will take 10 years to do a trade deal with the US, what I have shown is the average time it takes to do a deal with the US, nor am I talking about taking any trade deal that the US offers, besides any deal will not leave us worse off as the EU does not have an FTA with the USA, did you forget about that little bit of info?



Dutchy wrote:
Ok, working conditions are a supply and demand story? Wages too? Thought you are all in favor of the lower socioeconomic classes, guess that is all a farce.


Its a known fact that limited labour supply can increase wages across multiple industries to either attract workers or to attract a better class of skilled worker, that's why you will find some plumbers earn more money than doctors.


Dutchy wrote:

In conclusion
You are in favor of the hardest form of free market capitalism, everything should be covered by capitalism and everything is well. Ok, read a book, read some academic papers on this and you will educate yourself what it actually means what you are advocating here.


Get a gripe will ya, go grab a cup of tea, and a Bex, and a good lie down you might feel better

Dutchy wrote:
Hint, it is not the sort of country I want to live my life in. And is certainly very bad news for lower socioeconomic classes.


Well you might be in for a rude shock as the 2017 Economic Freedom of the World Index, listed the top 50 capitalist countries as UK (8th) and the Netherlands (17th)


Dutchy wrote:
So your post fails spectaculair on two fronts:
- will put socioeconomic groups in a disadvantage position
- in your "plan" you will give a tremendous amount of "control" to other countries


Well just because you said it then you must be right...……….. but low socioeconomic groups can always rise in stature easier in a capitalist market by up skilling, and our markets will always be under UK control as you know that importers have to meet that nations own standards/regulations in whatever industry the imports are for and range from food production to the standard a new car needs to be, and the UK government will be setting those standard/regulations to meet UK needs, that's what's called TAKING BACK CONTROL means.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 4:42 am

Well looks like another hurdle is over for a no-deal exit GFA safe and sound, storm in a teacup

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1SE1QA


The agreement secures the continuation of the Common Travel Area (CTA) that has been in place since 1922, when 26 of Ireland’s 32 counties broke away from the United Kingdom to form an independent state.



mmm...…...exactly what I have been saying for some time


And Brexit not so scary after all,
Defying Brexit, Volvo car brand Polestar picks UK for new development hub


https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ ... -rd-center
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 4:59 am

A more liberal market in the UK will attract business, that is why the EU is trying to stop it at all costs.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 5:33 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So your post fails spectaculair on two fronts:
- will put socioeconomic groups in a disadvantage position
- in your "plan" you will give a tremendous amount of "control" to other countries


Well just because you said it then you must be right...……….. but low socioeconomic groups can always rise in stature easier in a capitalist market by up skilling, and our markets will always be under UK control as you know that importers have to meet that nations own standards/regulations in whatever industry the imports are for and range from food production to the standard a new car needs to be, and the UK government will be setting those standard/regulations to meet UK needs, that's what's called TAKING BACK CONTROL means.


Well just because you said it then it must be right, right?

> socioeconomic will hurt the most with your beloved hard Brexit
> FTA pdq will mean the UK has to give in, this will put the UK at a disadvantage, not hard to grasp
> A fast FTA with the EU will not happen on the terms the Brexitremist want, this is living in lala land, the old mantra: they need us more, then we need them
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 5:37 am

A101 wrote:
And Brexit not so scary after all,


I would be impressed if they decide to build the car there, not R&D which you could do anywhere, brexit has no consequence for this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 6:09 am

Dutchy wrote:

Well just because you said it then it must be right, right?

Wow great comeback

Dutchy wrote:
> socioeconomic will hurt the most with your beloved hard Brexit
> FTA pdq will mean the UK has to give in, this will put the UK at a disadvantage, not hard to grasp
> A fast FTA with the EU will not happen on the terms the Brexitremist want, this is living in lala land, the old mantra: they need us more, then we need them


No, You have to have the agreement from all parties in the negotiations. Even very small countries, no matter how small their trade is, can derail agreements. Trade negotiators are not going to put themselves at a disadvantage they will simple walk away from the table.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 6:15 am

A101 wrote:
No, You have to have the agreement from all parties in the negotiations. Even very small countries, no matter how small their trade is, can derail agreements. Trade negotiators are not going to put themselves at a disadvantage they will simple walk away from the table.


So you are saying that small EU nations can block a fast trade deal with the EU, you are correct. So if the UK - they want something remember - want a fast trade deal with the EU, large concessions are needed on the UK side. The concept is quite easy to grasp: UK wants out, it is better on the inside than the outside, so the UK will be worse of than being a member. It depends on the other side to agree and since the UK is left with nothing, any trade deal made in a fast fashion will demand huge concessions from the UK, otherwise it will take ten years to do the normal negotiation thing. #taking back control?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 6:18 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well just because you said it then it must be right, right?

Wow great comeback


You don't like your own train of thought, you are not alone :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 6:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
No, You have to have the agreement from all parties in the negotiations. Even very small countries, no matter how small their trade is, can derail agreements. Trade negotiators are not going to put themselves at a disadvantage they will simple walk away from the table.


So you are saying that small EU nations can block a fast trade deal with the EU, you are correct. So if the UK - they want something remember - want a fast trade deal with the EU, large concessions are needed on the UK side. The concept is quite easy to grasp: UK wants out, it is better on the inside than the outside, so the UK will be worse of than being a member. It depends on the other side to agree and since the UK is left with nothing, any trade deal made in a fast fashion will demand huge concessions from the UK, otherwise it will take ten years to do the normal negotiation thing. #taking back control?


Of course they can never said they could not, if the concessions are not in our interests they won’t be happening, both side have to do it, just because the EU is larger overall dosnt mean we have to take it up the khyber far from it.

I’m happy to let another country take up the slack, if we need it and no choice but import, we will most likely set up FTA with others before the EU if the EU trade negotiators have the same thought process as you. As you most remainers keep saying the UK is only a small market insignificant, well you should not be worried when current trade turns to a trickle.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 6:40 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Well just because you said it then it must be right, right?

Wow great comeback


You don't like your own train of thought, you are not alone :lol:



:rotfl: well I guess that went over your head :rotfl:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 09, 2019 7:07 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
No, You have to have the agreement from all parties in the negotiations. Even very small countries, no matter how small their trade is, can derail agreements. Trade negotiators are not going to put themselves at a disadvantage they will simple walk away from the table.


So you are saying that small EU nations can block a fast trade deal with the EU, you are correct. So if the UK - they want something remember - want a fast trade deal with the EU, large concessions are needed on the UK side. The concept is quite easy to grasp: UK wants out, it is better on the inside than the outside, so the UK will be worse of than being a member. It depends on the other side to agree and since the UK is left with nothing, any trade deal made in a fast fashion will demand huge concessions from the UK, otherwise it will take ten years to do the normal negotiation thing. #taking back control?


Of course they can never said they could not, if the concessions are not in our interests they won’t be happening, both side have to do it, just because the EU is larger overall dosnt mean we have to take it up the khyber far from it.

I’m happy to let another country take up the slack, if we need it and no choice but import, we will most likely set up FTA with others before the EU if the EU trade negotiators have the same thought process as you. As you most remainers keep saying the UK is only a small market insignificant, well you should not be worried when current trade turns to a trickle.


Oh man, "if we need it and no choice but import, we will most likely set up FTA with others before the EU" this perfectly sums it up then. When you are out of the EU, you can import anything you want, import tariffs to zero and there you go. You do not even need a trade agreement for that. Where you need a trade agreement for is that you can EXPORT to that country without high tariffs and WTO terms mean you are in the highest tariff slab without a trade deal. But go ahead, set all import tariffs to zero and see how that will fly for you, the EU will not make any trade deal with you, nor will any other country, why would they, they have everything they want, they can export everything and keep UK products out of their home market.
Great thinking, man, brilliant strategy.

Just a reality check: the UK will be at a disadvantage against any nation, because it will have ZERO trade deals when leaving the EU, zero.

It needs trade deals, if you are in dire need of something, you just don't have too much bargain power, now do you,.
Why do you expect the UK will be given slack by any country, even Moldovia has veto power within the WTO an is using it because the UK refused to let a minister in. It is the core misconception and the ultimate manifestation of self delusional: they need us more, than we need them. Guess what, we don't......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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