BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 1:31 pm

I’ve been following Rory Stewart for a while. Interesting, moderate character, who has no hope of leading the party.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 1:49 pm

BestWestern wrote:
I’ve been following Rory Stewart for a while. Interesting, moderate character, who has no hope of leading the party.


too bad, seems to be a good diplomat, someone whom everybody needs to be in number 10 at this moment in time.
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BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 2:58 pm

The British population are happy to be voting for radical communists who condone terrorism at the moment. The chances of the Tory party voting for someone who has competence over confidence are zero. We should expect the worst and be let down even more by a Donald trump character.
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BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 3:01 pm

And by sheer coincidence.... Donald weighs into the fight.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 36631.html
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Francoflier
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 3:19 pm

Trump's support for BoJo is not new nor surprising, really...

Two rather idiotic populists who only excel at fostering anger at the expense or reason, facts and pragmatism. They're a match made in heaven.
Unfortunately, their rather nasty kind appears to be gaining traction lately.

That said, I'd love to see Boris at the helm. Let him finally put his money where his mouth is. Cue the Benny Hill theme song and yank the crap floodgates full open.
This will be fun to watch... if you're not from the UK, that is.
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 3:42 pm

Stubborn, dumb, and many other things, Trump, against China in a trade war : not going according to plan. Now imagine Trump and BoJo negotiating a USA-UK trade deal.
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 5:23 pm

Aesma wrote:
Stubborn, dumb, and many other things, Trump, against China in a trade war : not going according to plan. Now imagine Trump and BoJo negotiating a USA-UK trade deal.


What could possibly go wrong? :crazy:
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BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 5:38 pm

scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Stubborn, dumb, and many other things, Trump, against China in a trade war : not going according to plan. Now imagine Trump and BoJo negotiating a USA-UK trade deal.


What could possibly go wrong? :crazy:


What could possibly go right. A pure example of confidence being mistaken for competence.

If the UK votes for a trumpesque character, they get what they deserve. They recently voted en masse for ms reese mogg.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 6:29 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

The backstop is there because in UK there isn't consensus on what kind of workable relationship you want after Brexit. As simple as that.


I know why the EU put it there, but the very fact is by doing so in such a way that binds the UK which takes away parliamentary sovereignty and turns us into a vassal state was always going to cause division within the UK and may ultimately do more harm than good to both sides




Grizzly410 wrote:
With the red line TM set at Chequers, there is no other solution for EU than to protect itself with said backstop because they make it impossible to find a way of working that leaves the border open.


Those red lines had conformity with the manifesto and were not the problem, The problem was TM blinkered view that we had to stay within the SM

Grizzly410 wrote:
So : make up your mind, decide what kind of relationship you want to have with EU after the Brexit (and a workable solution to keep the border open if you don't want at least a CU) and you will quickly find out that there is no problem to ratify the WA as EU will be more than happy to set things up before the Transitional Period ends (ie before backstop kicks in).


Obviously there were different ideas on how the UK should leave, but as we have seen with resignations of key people within the UK negotiations team and TM steadfast approach of keeping the UK in the SM, hopefully cooler heads will prevail, but untill the EU walks back on no the backstop issue it’s always going to take centre stage.




Grizzly410 wrote:
You seem to think going no deal will make disappear the practical realities of Brexit, that’s just kicking the can down the road again but losing the very last bit of leverage you have left (revoke art 50) in the process. One day or another UK will need to settle the situation with its closest neighbor and finally deal with the realities of the withdrawal. Every politician with a bit of commun sense understands that, the House too, that’s precisely why it ruled out no deal : it's a huge waste of everything.


Revoking A50 will not give us any leverage at all, those same preconditions the EU will just continue if A50 is invoked again and the merry go round will continue


Grizzly410 wrote:
Btw, you seem to know better than the negociators claiming EU isn’t following its own treaty rule in this negotiation, why don’t you bring the case to the ECJ ?? :angel:


I imagine some one would have if they have deep enough pockets.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu May 30, 2019 10:48 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
The backstop is there because in UK there isn't consensus on what kind of workable relationship you want after Brexit. As simple as that.

I still do not understand why the Remainers in parliament are against it, they voted with the Brexiters, even labour voted against.
Is there something else in the WA that they are against?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 31, 2019 8:11 am

BestWestern wrote:
The British population are happy to be voting for radical communists who condone terrorism at the moment. The chances of the Tory party voting for someone who has competence over confidence are zero. We should expect the worst and be let down even more by a Donald trump character.


There seems to be a large part of the population that isn't happy about it. A new general election might produce a very interesting result. https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 9249654786
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 31, 2019 9:04 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:

The backstop is there because in UK there isn't consensus on what kind of workable relationship you want after Brexit. As simple as that.


I know why the EU put it there, but the very fact is by doing so in such a way that binds the UK which takes away parliamentary sovereignty and turns us into a vassal state was always going to cause division within the UK and may ultimately do more harm than good to both sides


You can think it may harm EU too all you wish that doesn’t change anything, it’s UK decision that triggered this mess and EU cannot do anything about it: The backstop is an automatic consequence of UK decision, nothing more. It's about time you accept that simple fact.


A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
With the red line TM set at Chequers, there is no other solution for EU than to protect itself with said backstop because they make it impossible to find a way of working that leaves the border open.


Those red lines had conformity with the manifesto and were not the problem, The problem was TM blinkered view that we had to stay within the SM


Sorry I said Chequers, I meant Lancaster House Speech, sorry. Let’s read what TM said, will you ?

Theresa May wrote:
[…] …we will work to deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the Common Travel Area with the Republic [of Ireland], while protecting the integrity of the United Kingdom’s immigration system. Nobody wants to return to the borders of the past, so we will make it a priority to deliver a practical solution as soon as we can.
[…]
We will get control of the number of people coming to Britain from the EU.
[…]
That agreement may take in elements of current single market arrangements in certain areas – on the export of cars and lorries for example, or the freedom to provide financial services across national borders – as it makes no sense to start again from scratch when Britain and the remaining member states have adhered to the same rules for so many years.
[…]
because we will no longer be members of the Single Market, we will not be required to contribute huge sums to the EU budget. There may be some specific European programmes in which we might want to participate. If so, and this will be for us to decide, it is reasonable that we should make an appropriate contribution. But the principle is clear: the days of Britain making vast contributions to the European Union every year will end.
[…]
That means I do not want Britain to be part of the Common Commercial Policy and I do not want us to be bound by the Common External Tariff. These are the elements of the Customs Union that prevent us from striking our own comprehensive trade agreements with other countries. But I do want us to have a customs agreement with the EU.
Whether that means we must reach a completely new customs agreement, become an associate member of the Customs Union in some way, or remain a signatory to some elements of it, I hold no preconceived position. I have an open mind on how we do it. It is not the means that matter, but the ends. […]

That’s pretty clear she doesn’t want UK to be part of the Single Market and get rid of FoM. At some point she also wants to cherry pick some SM advantage but we all know that’s a absolute NO GO.
So what about the Chequers Deal ?
Chequers wrote:
1. Leaving the European Union on the 29th March 2019.
2. Ending free movement and taking back control of our borders.
3. No more sending vast sums of money each year to the EU.
4. A new business friendly customs model with freedom to strike new trade deals around the world.
5. UK-EU free trade area with a common rulebook for industrial goods and agricultural products which will be good for jobs.
6. Commitment to maintain high standards on consumer and employment rights and the environment.
7. Parliamentary lock on all new rules and regulations.
8. Leaving the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy.
9. Restoring the supremacy of British courts by ending the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK.
10. No hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
11. Continued close cooperation on security to keep our people safe.
12. An independent foreign and defence policy working closely with the EU and other allies.

Not even needed to go further than point 2 => End FoM, automatic consequence : out of SM.
I really fail to see how can you claim TM wanted UK to remain in the SM. You have nothing to support this view.


A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
So : make up your mind, decide what kind of relationship you want to have with EU after the Brexit (and a workable solution to keep the border open if you don't want at least a CU) and you will quickly find out that there is no problem to ratify the WA as EU will be more than happy to set things up before the Transitional Period ends (ie before backstop kicks in).


Obviously there were different ideas on how the UK should leave, but as we have seen with resignations of key people within the UK negotiations team and TM steadfast approach of keeping the UK in the SM, hopefully cooler heads will prevail, but untill the EU walks back on no the backstop issue it’s always going to take centre stage.


Sorry but EU doesn’t have to walk back on anything.
From Lancaster House Speech “Nobody wants to return to the borders of the past, so we will make it a priority to deliver a practical solution as soon as we can.”
And up to date the only practical solution offered by UK gov is the one in the WA !!!!!! (in response at EU solution to leave NI in the SM for free…).
It’s definitively up to UK to come with a practical and workable solution if it doesn't like this one.


A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
You seem to think going no deal will make disappear the practical realities of Brexit, that’s just kicking the can down the road again but losing the very last bit of leverage you have left (revoke art 50) in the process. One day or another UK will need to settle the situation with its closest neighbor and finally deal with the realities of the withdrawal. Every politician with a bit of commun sense understands that, the House too, that’s precisely why it ruled out no deal : it's a huge waste of everything.


Revoking A50 will not give us any leverage at all, those same preconditions the EU will just continue if A50 is invoked again and the merry go round will continue

Well, if you think revoke A50 doesn’t give you any tiny bit of leverage I’m sorry but that means you have absolutely nothing left.
IMO this is leverage because UK currently enjoy the best conditions within EU, on its way out it levels the playing field. If some members are afraid to see you leave no deal remember there is also others that are happy to see you give up your rebate and opt-outs.


par13del wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
The backstop is there because in UK there isn't consensus on what kind of workable relationship you want after Brexit. As simple as that.

I still do not understand why the Remainers in parliament are against it, they voted with the Brexiters, even labour voted against.
Is there something else in the WA that they are against?

I imagine Remainers are against because they know the outcome of all this, a BRINO, and they know that’s a stupid move. They want to remain and keep the advantageous condition UK enjoys within EU.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 31, 2019 11:36 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
The backstop is there because in UK there isn't consensus on what kind of workable relationship you want after Brexit. As simple as that.


I still do not understand why the Remainers in parliament are against it, they voted with the Brexiters, even labour voted against.
Is there something else in the WA that they are against?

I imagine Remainers are against because they know the outcome of all this, a BRINO, and they know that’s a stupid move. They want to remain and keep the advantageous condition UK enjoys within EU.


I think a Brino, for now, is the best deal possible and semi-acceptable for all parties. This polarization doesn't work in the end, the UK citizens needs to delve into the details and a fair debate about the real consequences of the different options to have a relationship with the EU, from none - WTO terms - to re-apply to the EU and be a member again. In the current political climate, none of the options will satisfy the other party, none: with crashing out of the EU, the very next day there will be a movement to re-apply again, and with revoking article 50, Farage and the lot will continue to campaign for a hard Brexit. So nothing will change. The only option is to settle this debate outside of the EU, but keep the relationship open for the next two years: cooling of period and at the end: let the citizens decide, all the citizens, including the ones living abroad.
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Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 31, 2019 2:11 pm

A101 wrote:
Don’t get me wrong I fundamentally agree with what you’re saying, But I also believe if you hold one accountable you have to hold all accountable, where do you draw the line?


I think UK politics is in a shocking state. I think the general public's lack of ability to reason and critically think is scarily bad. I think kids should be taught about Parliament, personal finances, business finances, the EU at an early age so they know who affects what, who is in control of what. Without it you have a completely useless electorate which is what I believe we have had for the last 20 odd years.

I think people like Boris, Gove, JRM etc should be nowhere near parliament. People lie, I can accept this but what I cannot accept is if a senior civil servant (i.e MP) does it and is then publically told you are wrong by a govenmental department with clear available data that you can then continue to peddle the same lie. You shouldn't be able to, and you should be held in contempt of public office and thrown out. MPs should not be allowed second jobs, they should not be allowed to have any financial interest in any investment companies or anything that is a conflict of interest.

We have to start weeding out the utterly incompetent career liers. If the public is incapable or unwilling to not vote for them when it's made clear, then they should face a court or simply be thrown out of the HOC.

A101 wrote:
Omission of facts can be just as damaging as white lies, also if you state a policy and do not deliver is that a lie because you campaigned on it?


No it's not a lie. Situations change.
Manifesto's are what you intend do to, if you win an election. The Lib Dems didn't win the Election when they went into power sharing with the Tories so you cannot hold them responsible for not being able to implement their entire Manifesto.
Likewise if you are a minority govenment, you rely on other parties to support you in votes. You won't always win. So in that case, you didn't lie.

Indeed omission of facts is as damaging as white lies.

Lastly we need a press that doesn't let people just say what they want on TV or Radio completely unchallenged. When facts and data are so easy to access, it's not acceptable.
 
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Number6
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 31, 2019 2:49 pm

Reinhardt, the Phrase ‘we Don’t recognise this.’ From politicians that disagree with a reports findings has to be one of the most toxic I’ve heard. It’s one thing to not like an inconvenient fact or report, but to stand in front of people and state ‘you don’t recognise it’ is just plain wrong. It seeks to shut down debate rather than discuss the issues. I fear that politics will only get worse with this kind of stuff without a strong press pushing back.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 31, 2019 4:36 pm

Number6 wrote:
Reinhardt, the Phrase ‘we Don’t recognise this.’ From politicians that disagree with a reports findings has to be one of the most toxic I’ve heard. It’s one thing to not like an inconvenient fact or report, but to stand in front of people and state ‘you don’t recognise it’ is just plain wrong. It seeks to shut down debate rather than discuss the issues. I fear that politics will only get worse with this kind of stuff without a strong press pushing back.


Completely agree.

The whole fake news thing has made things tons worse as well. Since any debate can also be shut down with a two word answer, which actually means nothing.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Fri May 31, 2019 9:33 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

You can think it may harm EU too all you wish that doesn’t change anything, it’s UK decision that triggered this mess and EU cannot do anything about it: The backstop is an automatic consequence of UK decision, nothing more. It's about time you accept that simple fact.


No the backstop is not a automatic consequence it was put in there by design and brought to the table by the EU, the only thing that happens automatically when A50 is revoked is leaving on no deal that is the only automatic consequence of A50.

Grizzly410 wrote:
That’s pretty clear she doesn’t want UK to be part of the Single Market and get rid of FoM. At some point she also wants to cherry pick some SM advantage but we all know that’s a absolute NO GO.
So what about the Chequers Deal ?

And
Grizzly410 wrote:
Not even needed to go further than point 2 => End FoM, automatic consequence : out of SM.
I really fail to see how can you claim TM wanted UK to remain in the SM. You have nothing to support this view.


Political Consumption for the domestic audience, TM knew the implications of the WA and is why she insisted that all the UK remain in from the originally EU proposal that backstop would mean Northern Ireland staying in the EU customs union, remember Its was chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, continually emphasised that this backstop could only apply to Northern Ireland.



Grizzly410 wrote:
Sorry but EU doesn’t have to walk back on anything.


It is widely acknowledged that if the UK leaves without a deal EU interests will also be affected, is that in the best interests of EU members


Grizzly410 wrote:
From Lancaster House Speech “Nobody wants to return to the borders of the past, so we will make it a priority to deliver a practical solution as soon as we can.”


Borders of the past here she is talking of the security borders for the smuggling of weapons and explosives and a watch list of known terrorists, which are quite different from customs borders.

The troubles started in earnest in the late 60’s prior to joining the joining the EEC, before that was the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965, the customs border was totally abolished in 73, the EU published a report on “Smart Border 2.0 Avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland for Customs control and the free movement of persons” unless the ROI resumes the smuggling of weapons and explosives into NI then a security border will not be needed

Grizzly410 wrote:
And up to date the only practical solution offered by UK gov is the one in the WA !!!!!! (in response at EU solution to leave NI in the SM for free…).


Up to date TM was pushing for the WA and BRINO as it was the only way for the UK to remain inside the CU/SM as all the EU had to do was reject any proposal in the future trade relationship to keep thecUK inside which is in the overall best interests of the EU and those of remain position


Grizzly410 wrote:
It’s definitively up to UK to come with a practical and workable solution if it doesn't like this one.


There are workable solutions but these cannot be discussed as the EU will not negotiate until the WA is signed as is on the table, the UK will not sign as the WA goes against parliament sovereignty and not only A50 Sect 1

Grizzly410 wrote:
Well, if you think revoke A50 doesn’t give you any tiny bit of leverage I’m sorry but that means you have absolutely nothing left.
IMO this is leverage because UK currently enjoy the best conditions within EU, on its way out it levels the playing field. If some members are afraid to see you leave no deal remember there is also others that are happy to see you give up your rebate and opt-outs.


There is no leverage David Cameron tried that already and got him no where
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:33 am

A101 wrote:
There are workable solutions but these cannot be discussed as the EU will not negotiate until the WA is signed as is on the table, the UK will not sign as the WA goes against parliament sovereignty and not only A50 Sect 1

This is only a problem because extremists in the UK insist that their sovereignty absolutely required bombing the peace accord in Northern Ireland to hell.

If that is what you believe your sovereignty means, then the EU27 are indeed resolutely opposed to it, but that is a completely insane position.

This is just one symptom of the insanity of Brexit overall, and the backstop issue will meet you just again if you decide to crash out without a WA – then just at the point you're coming back for a new relationship which will just as much require the same preconditions, just with the UK in an even worse negotiating position at that point.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:17 am

Klaus wrote:
This is only a problem because extremists in the UK insist that their sovereignty absolutely required bombing the peace accord in Northern Ireland to hell.


Oh please do tell how it is acceptable for any government to willing cede sovereign territory to an economic community that threatens the constitutional integrity of the UK parliament of which the Northern Ireland is a part of when we have meet the requirements under Article 50 Section 1 of the TEU?



Klaus wrote:
If that is what you believe your sovereignty means, then the EU27 are indeed resolutely opposed to it, but that is a completely insane position.


What the EU is resolutely opposed to is losing influence and financial investment.



Klaus wrote:
This is just one symptom of the insanity of Brexit overall, and the backstop issue will meet you just again if you decide to crash out without a WA – then just at the point you're coming back for a new relationship which will just as much require the same preconditions, just with the UK in an even worse negotiating position at that point.


No that’s not correct, any precondition by the EU in new talks of relinquishing sovereign territory to the EU will be off the table for good once we have left with no deal, the only way that can happen is if the UK parliament rejoins the CU/SM as it would take an act of parliament for that to happen, and even then the UK will still have parliamentary sovereignty to invoke A50 again if it so desired
Last edited by A101 on Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:26 am

A101 wrote:
Oh please do tell how it is acceptable for any government to willing cede sovereign territory to an economic community that threatens the constitutional integrity of the UK parliament of which the Northern Ireland is a part of when they have meet the requirements under Article 50 Section 1 of the TEU?


You threatened the integrity of the UK all on your own, so please don't do this line of reasoning, it justs looks silly. Scotland and Northern Ireland might leave the UK and the Brexitremist don't care about it, they don't care about any consequences as long as they will leave the EU. That makes them radicals or extremist.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:39 am

Dutchy wrote:

You threatened the integrity of the UK all on your own, so please don't do this line of reasoning, it justs looks silly. Scotland and Northern Ireland might leave the UK and the Brexitremist don't care about it, they don't care about any consequences as long as they will leave the EU. That makes them radicals or extremist.


Oh please dispense with the bull, it’s not the UK who’s trying to circumvent A50 Sec 1
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:51 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You threatened the integrity of the UK all on your own, so please don't do this line of reasoning, it justs looks silly. Scotland and Northern Ireland might leave the UK and the Brexitremist don't care about it, they don't care about any consequences as long as they will leave the EU. That makes them radicals or extremist.


Oh please dispense with the bull, it’s not the UK who’s trying to circumvent A50 Sec 1


Take it to court if you are convinced of that. European Court of Justice is still open to you. Till then, stop using that fairytale.

On the other hand, the independence movement in Scotland is strong as is their desire to stay within the EU, the Northern Ireland case is also dicy for people whom like the UK to remain the UK. I have asked your Brexitremist companion and he was ok with the UK falling apart as long as there was a cliff edge Brexit, are you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:03 am

Dutchy wrote:

Take it to court if you are convinced of that. European Court of Justice is still open to you. Till then, stop using that fairytale.


Nope, don’t need to unless a remainer does something stupid like sign the WA, but untill then whilst the EU continue push the WA and not step back from it it’s fair game.

Dutchy wrote:
On the other hand, the independence movement in Scotland is strong as is their desire to stay within the EU, the Northern Ireland case is also dicy for people whom like the UK to remain the UK. I have asked your Brexitremist companion and he was ok with the UK falling apart as long as there was a cliff edge Brexit, are you?


Yep, I’ve said it before and just for you I’ll say it again. If they vote to leave I’ll respect the vote something you lot need to practise what you preach.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:08 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Take it to court if you are convinced of that. European Court of Justice is still open to you. Till then, stop using that fairytale.


Nope, don’t need to unless a remainer does something stupid like sign the WA, but untill then whilst the EU continue push the WA and not step back from it it’s fair game.


Fine, till the Court decides on the matter, you are just speculating, nothing more.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:40 am

Meanwhile, as BoJo is already dreaming of being the next PM after Trump's endorsement (forgetting he'd never vote Conserverative in the first place but rather Brexit Party), Michael Gove, another front runner in the leadership race for the Tories, has reportedly informed his government colleagues he'd do everything to postpone Brexit AGAIN -this time till the end of 2020- in order to make sure there is a deal in place and an orderly exit can subsequently happen, because the absence of this would risk wiping out the party at the first GE after Brexit when agry voters turn against the politicians who have lead them to such an undesirable state of affairs …
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... exit-late/
Seems like even the leaders of the LEAVE campaign aren't buying their self-fabricated success story of Brexit any longer now, at least not behind closed doors.
I can see this ending with France, Belgium and a few others simply booting the UK out end of October, and British politicians then blaming the recession the UK plunges into on the EU and 'the frogs'.... It feels comfortably enough for politicians who's trade it has always been to blame domestic problems of their own making on the Europeans. Another indication Brexit won't change a thing in the UK, other than make low middle class even poorer (and angrier).
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:46 am

sabenapilot wrote:
I can see this ending with France, Belgium and a few others simply booting the UK out end of October, and British politicians then blaming the recession the UK plunges into on the EU and 'the frogs'....


If in doubt, blaming the French has worked for centuries! ;)
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:46 am

Dutchy wrote:



Fine, till the Court decides on the matter, you are just speculating, nothing more.


The UK would have to sign it before it could be taken to court, and you would need more than loose change to contemplate that, but until that time comes we just have to wait the outcome on 31 October
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:08 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:



Fine, till the Court decides on the matter, you are just speculating, nothing more.


The UK would have to sign it before it could be taken to court, and you would need more than loose change to contemplate that, but until that time comes we just have to wait the outcome on 31 October


So we can lay the matter to rest and your accusations towards the EU also? Thanks.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:44 am

Dutchy wrote:

So we can lay the matter to rest and your accusations towards the EU also? Thanks.


No
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:48 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So we can lay the matter to rest and your accusations towards the EU also? Thanks.


No


Fine, keep speculating then.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You threatened the integrity of the UK all on your own, so please don't do this line of reasoning, it justs looks silly. Scotland and Northern Ireland might leave the UK and the Brexitremist don't care about it, they don't care about any consequences as long as they will leave the EU. That makes them radicals or extremist.


Oh please dispense with the bull, it’s not the UK who’s trying to circumvent A50 Sec 1


Take it to court if you are convinced of that. European Court of Justice is still open to you. Till then, stop using that fairytale.

On the other hand, the independence movement in Scotland is strong as is their desire to stay within the EU, the Northern Ireland case is also dicy for people whom like the UK to remain the UK. I have asked your Brexitremist companion and he was ok with the UK falling apart as long as there was a cliff edge Brexit, are you?


Have you been to Scotland to gauge public opinion?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:57 am

Don't need to, Scotland just voted :)
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:58 pm

Vote Brexit party and get a seriously dangerous Homophobe MEP.... what were the chances.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... ssion=true

You get what you voted for UK. Shame on you. Now the rest of Europe has idiots like this representing us.

New Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has prompted a backlash after saying "science may produce an answer" to homosexuality. The 71-year-old made the remark while defending support she gave to "gay cure" treatments.

While on Sky News, she was hauled up on a 2012 article which defended "gay conversion" therapy, and said the "homosexual lobby" was stopping people who want to turn straight from doing so. “
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:39 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Vote Brexit party and get a seriously dangerous Homophobe MEP.... what were the chances.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... ssion=true

You get what you voted for UK. Shame on you. Now the rest of Europe has idiots like this representing us.

New Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has prompted a backlash after saying "science may produce an answer" to homosexuality. The 71-year-old made the remark while defending support she gave to "gay cure" treatments.

While on Sky News, she was hauled up on a 2012 article which defended "gay conversion" therapy, and said the "homosexual lobby" was stopping people who want to turn straight from doing so. “


New populist parties tend to attract these loonies.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:40 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Vote Brexit party and get a seriously dangerous Homophobe MEP.... what were the chances.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... ssion=true

You get what you voted for UK. Shame on you. Now the rest of Europe has idiots like this representing us.

New Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has prompted a backlash after saying "science may produce an answer" to homosexuality. The 71-year-old made the remark while defending support she gave to "gay cure" treatments.

While on Sky News, she was hauled up on a 2012 article which defended "gay conversion" therapy, and said the "homosexual lobby" was stopping people who want to turn straight from doing so. “



Mmm I not really sure what her religious views have to do with thread topic of Brexit, yes it would be such a shame to vote on purely religious view points and or feel good rainbow topics. I’m sure there would be a number of people who share your outrage but it’s best not to pollute the topic thread if you do not agree with her.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:47 pm

A101 wrote:
Mmm I not really sure what her religious views have to do with thread topic of Brexit, yes it would be such a shame to vote on purely religious view points and or feel good rainbow topics. I’m sure there would be a number of people who share your outrage but it’s best not to pollute the topic thread if you do not agree with her.


Do you feel uncomfortable with people pointing out what kind of people you The Brexit party voters, actually voted for? And thus will represent you in EU parliament.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:52 pm

A101 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Vote Brexit party and get a seriously dangerous Homophobe MEP.... what were the chances.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... ssion=true

You get what you voted for UK. Shame on you. Now the rest of Europe has idiots like this representing us.

New Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has prompted a backlash after saying "science may produce an answer" to homosexuality. The 71-year-old made the remark while defending support she gave to "gay cure" treatments.

While on Sky News, she was hauled up on a 2012 article which defended "gay conversion" therapy, and said the "homosexual lobby" was stopping people who want to turn straight from doing so. “



Mmm I not really sure what her religious views have to do with thread topic of Brexit, yes it would be such a shame to vote on purely religious view points and or feel good rainbow topics. I’m sure there would be a number of people who share your outrage but it’s best not to pollute the topic thread if you do not agree with her.


I’d hope that we all don’t agree with her.

She is the official Brexit party representative. She is a member of Parliament. She represents the United Kingdom. She should be forced to resign over such homophobic comments.
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Mmm I not really sure what her religious views have to do with thread topic of Brexit, yes it would be such a shame to vote on purely religious view points and or feel good rainbow topics. I’m sure there would be a number of people who share your outrage but it’s best not to pollute the topic thread if you do not agree with her.


Do you feel uncomfortable with people pointing out what kind of people you The Brexit party voters, actually voted for? And thus will represent you in EU parliament.


I have not a problem with people discussing her view points in a non discriminatory way as many people can agree on things and disagree on other things but should be discussed in the correct thread or forum. it is very hard to get a political figure that you agree 100% with majority of voters get the 80% to which they feel most strongly in.

Have you noticed I have not agreed or disagreed with what was said, as this is the wrong thread to be discussing it in.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:11 pm

BestWestern wrote:

She should be forced to resign over such homophobic comments.


I hope not as that would be religious persecution
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:18 pm

A101 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:

She should be forced to resign over such homophobic comments.


I hope not as that would be religious persecution


So being a homophobe is ok, and criticism of same is religious persecution?

As a Catholic myself, am I self loathing?

Are you OK with somebody like this as your representative?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 pm

BestWestern wrote:

So being a homophobe is ok, and criticism of same is religious persecution?

As a Catholic myself, am I self loathing?

Are you OK with somebody like this as your representative?



Criticism and calling for ones dismissal because of religious beliefs are a different kettle of fish.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:38 pm

Conversion of gay people isn’t a Catholic belief. I’m not being critical of her faith, but of her bigoted, un British, un European homophobia.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:51 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Conversion of gay people isn’t a Catholic belief. I’m not being critical of her faith, but of her bigoted, un British, un European homophobia.


:checkmark:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:47 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Conversion of gay people isn’t a Catholic belief. I’m not being critical of her faith, but of her bigoted, un British, un European homophobia.


Yep that’s fine to have your views but is off topic for this thread that is my overall point to all this.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:50 am

A vote for the Brexit party has enabled the election of unelectable far right wing people who now represent the country.

How has the UK fallen so far?
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LJ
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:42 am

And still some UK politicians don't get it

Leadsom said she would seek to speak directly to member states about the way forward.

“At the end of the day, European politicians face the ballot box, as do all of us politicians. It is in all of our interests first to move on, they don’t want us hanging around for the next couple of years … at the same time we all want to see the smoothest exit possible,” she said.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/andrea-leadsom-pledges-managed-brexit-in-bid-for-tory-leadership

It seems that she has forgotten that in many EU countries, there are no elections planned in the short term. However, even more surprising is that she still doesn't understand the individual EU countries cannot make deals with the UK themselves.All EU countries need to agree.

BTW I love the term "managed no-deal Brexit", and especially her translation of it.
 
Ertro
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:43 am

After UK has negotiated with EU comes negotiations with USA and signs are USA trade deal is going to be exactly similarly difficult for UK if not more so:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... to-uk-says

The US will want business access to the NHS in any post-Brexit trade deal, the US ambassador has said.
Woody Johnson, who is a close friend of the US president, said every area of the UK economy would be up for discussion when the two sides brokered a trade deal. Asked if the NHS was likely to form part of trade negotiations, Johnson told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show: “I think the entire economy, in a trade deal, all things that are traded would be on the table.” Asked if that specifically meant healthcare, he said: “I would think so.


USA has also indicated that they would also make the Irish border issue sticking point in the negotiations exactly like EU has done.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland ... -1.3835621

There will be “no chance” of a US-UK trade deal being signed off if there is a return of a hard Irish border after Brexit, US senator Chris Murphy has said. The Connecticut Democrat, a member of the influential US senate foreign relations committee, said on a visit to Dublin on Friday that Congress would have “the final say” on any trade deal with Britain and he did not think there was the support to ratify an agreement “if there are big outstanding questions about the peace process”. “We are all friends of Britain – it is an unbreakable bond – but we can’t compromise the sanctity of the Good Friday Agreement and folks in the UK parliament need to know that,” he said.


So possibility for No deal with EU and also No deal with USA. What's next? Japan and China? Tough negotiators.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:01 am

Ertro wrote:
So possibility for No deal with EU and also No deal with USA. What's next? Japan and China? Tough negotiators.


No, no, no. It's all good. Nigel and Boris have it all under control. Two days after we crash out of the EU at the end of October, all the trade deals will be in place. It's going to be so easy, David Davis said so!
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:24 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
You can think it may harm EU too all you wish that doesn’t change anything, it’s UK decision that triggered this mess and EU cannot do anything about it: The backstop is an automatic consequence of UK decision, nothing more. It's about time you accept that simple fact.


No the backstop is not a automatic consequence it was put in there by design and brought to the table by the EU, the only thing that happens automatically when A50 is revoked is leaving on no deal that is the only automatic consequence of A50.

Grizzly410 wrote:
That’s pretty clear she doesn’t want UK to be part of the Single Market and get rid of FoM. At some point she also wants to cherry pick some SM advantage but we all know that’s a absolute NO GO.
So what about the Chequers Deal ?

And
Grizzly410 wrote:
Not even needed to go further than point 2 => End FoM, automatic consequence : out of SM.
I really fail to see how can you claim TM wanted UK to remain in the SM. You have nothing to support this view.


Political Consumption for the domestic audience, TM knew the implications of the WA and is why she insisted that all the UK remain in from the originally EU proposal that backstop would mean Northern Ireland staying in the EU customs union, remember Its was chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, continually emphasised that this backstop could only apply to Northern Ireland.


Ah, that’s a shy way to admit TM wasn’t trying to maintain UK in the SM but I’ll take it anyway.


A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Sorry but EU doesn’t have to walk back on anything.


It is widely acknowledged that if the UK leaves without a deal EU interests will also be affected, is that in the best interests of EU members


Of course EU interests will be affected but this boat have sailed for a long time now. It’s acknowledged and accepted.
If it’s not self-evident for you what’s the best for the 27 members between protect the Single Market and take a hit short term or undermine it for a 3rd country interest, we can’t do much for you.
There is no reason to walk back on anything, EU won’t. Get over it.


A101 wrote:

Up to date TM was pushing for the WA and BRINO as it was the only way for the UK to remain inside the CU/SM as all the EU had to do was reject any proposal in the future trade relationship to keep thecUK inside which is in the overall best interests of the EU and those of remain position

A101 wrote:

There are workable solutions but these cannot be discussed as the EU will not negotiate until the WA is signed as is on the table, the UK will not sign as the WA goes against parliament sovereignty and not only A50 Sect 1


And there you go again.
You definitively have to put this argument to rest. The WA doesn’t maintain the UK within the SM, nor in the CU actually.
At some point you’ll have to understand that’s International Treaty negociation not kindergarden one. EU requires the backstop because it doesn’t believe UK can come up with a workable solution keeping the border open during the Transition period timeframe, if UK have one, a true one, EU will have to accept it in good faith.

Btw there is nothing stopping anyone to present a solution right now, no need to negociate with anybody : a reality check by experts will be quickly available in different medias. But unfortunately so far nobody raise its hand, on the opposite most of Tories in leadership race are so clueless they prefer defend no deal !! => makes me think EU rather smart to request a backstop in exchange of an orderly exit.

As you seems to be in the know, so affirmative, would you be so kind to explain us a bit what a workable solution looks like in practice ?
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:35 am

Starting today, US 'President' Trump is visiting the UK and Ireland and has already started to insult the country and some of its politicians. He has blasted London Mayor Kahn mainly over being a Muslim which to Trump = hates Israel and supporting Shara law in the UK. He has also made comments on Brexit that he should keep his nose out of. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-brings ... 47202.html

Oh, and he is bringing all his 'princes and princesses', ie; his children as well as his corrupt SOL Jared with him on the visit. I hope Prince Charles and his sons give him an earful but likely won't due to diplomatic and UK royal's limits on discussing politics. It is also a sick insult to Europe his attending the 75th D-Day anniversary ceremonies.

I hope there are plenty of protesters during his visit although sadly they will likely be kept beyond his viewing eye and ear range of him due to the extreme security needs. At least some of the UK's people are far braver than too many Americans in expressing their dislike of Trump and his policies.

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