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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:47 am

ltbewr wrote:
Starting today, US 'President' Trump is visiting the UK and Ireland and has already started to insult the country and some of its politicians. He has blasted London Mayor Kahn mainly over being a Muslim which to Trump = hates Israel and supporting Shara law in the UK. He has also made comments on Brexit that he should keep his nose out of. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-brings ... 47202.html

Oh, and he is bringing all his 'princes and princesses', ie; his children as well as his corrupt SOL Jared with him on the visit. I hope Prince Charles and his sons give him an earful but likely won't due to diplomatic and UK royal's limits on discussing politics. It is also a sick insult to Europe his attending the 75th D-Day anniversary ceremonies.

I hope there are plenty of protesters during his visit although sadly they will likely be kept beyond his viewing eye and ear range of him due to the extreme security needs. At least some of the UK's people are far braver than too many Americans in expressing their dislike of Trump and his policies.


If you truly want to insult him, ignore him completely, that will teach him :lol:
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KLDC10
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Starting today, US 'President' Trump is visiting the UK and Ireland and has already started to insult the country and some of its politicians. He has blasted London Mayor Kahn mainly over being a Muslim which to Trump = hates Israel and supporting Shara law in the UK. He has also made comments on Brexit that he should keep his nose out of. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-brings ... 47202.html

Oh, and he is bringing all his 'princes and princesses', ie; his children as well as his corrupt SOL Jared with him on the visit. I hope Prince Charles and his sons give him an earful but likely won't due to diplomatic and UK royal's limits on discussing politics. It is also a sick insult to Europe his attending the 75th D-Day anniversary ceremonies.

I hope there are plenty of protesters during his visit although sadly they will likely be kept beyond his viewing eye and ear range of him due to the extreme security needs. At least some of the UK's people are far braver than too many Americans in expressing their dislike of Trump and his policies.


If you truly want to insult him, ignore him completely, that will teach him :lol:


Mr Khan wrote a completely inappropriate and undiplomatic article in the Observer this weekend in which he made disparaging comments about the President of an important ally for the United Kingdom. It was a foolish thing to do and Trump is right to call him out on it. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... sadiq-khan
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:22 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Starting today, US 'President' Trump is visiting the UK and Ireland and has already started to insult the country and some of its politicians. He has blasted London Mayor Kahn mainly over being a Muslim which to Trump = hates Israel and supporting Shara law in the UK. He has also made comments on Brexit that he should keep his nose out of. https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-brings ... 47202.html

Oh, and he is bringing all his 'princes and princesses', ie; his children as well as his corrupt SOL Jared with him on the visit. I hope Prince Charles and his sons give him an earful but likely won't due to diplomatic and UK royal's limits on discussing politics. It is also a sick insult to Europe his attending the 75th D-Day anniversary ceremonies.

I hope there are plenty of protesters during his visit although sadly they will likely be kept beyond his viewing eye and ear range of him due to the extreme security needs. At least some of the UK's people are far braver than too many Americans in expressing their dislike of Trump and his policies.


If you truly want to insult him, ignore him completely, that will teach him :lol:


Mr Khan wrote a completely inappropriate and undiplomatic article in the Observer this weekend in which he made disparaging comments about the President of an important ally for the United Kingdom. It was a foolish thing to do and Trump is right to call him out on it. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... sadiq-khan


Don't see anything wrong with that article. As I understand it, he makes some observations - correct ones - and says mr. Trump should keep out of UK politics. Trump trumps inappropriate and undiplomatic talk, so don't be surprised that there will be some reaction. Given that Trump isn't too popular in the UK, his visit is a major inconvenience to the city.
It is hilarious that the White House has asked the Metropolitan Police to keep people away in order that Trump doesn't have to see them. :lol:

Thanks for pointing us to an excellent article.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:25 am

Trump got a warm welcome:

Image

Image

Source
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:42 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Mr Khan wrote a completely inappropriate and undiplomatic article in the Observer this weekend in which he made disparaging comments about the President of an important ally for the United Kingdom. It was a foolish thing to do and Trump is right to call him out on it. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... sadiq-khan


If only Trump would follow your standards, then people like Khan wouldn't have to point out the obvious. :sarcastic:
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Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:35 pm

Ertro wrote:
After UK has negotiated with EU comes negotiations with USA and signs are USA trade deal is going to be exactly similarly difficult for UK if not more so:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... to-uk-says

The US will want business access to the NHS in any post-Brexit trade deal, the US ambassador has said.
Woody Johnson, who is a close friend of the US president, said every area of the UK economy would be up for discussion when the two sides brokered a trade deal. Asked if the NHS was likely to form part of trade negotiations, Johnson told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show: “I think the entire economy, in a trade deal, all things that are traded would be on the table.” Asked if that specifically meant healthcare, he said: “I would think so.



It's makes Farage being best buddies with Aaron Banks even more interesting, after all he is in, oh yes the Insurance business.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:40 pm

Despite Brexit the UK still pulls magic rabbits out the hat, in addition to the lovely landscaping today in London:

http://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-faces-g ... 00714.html
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:13 pm

President Macron just helped focus the Tory leadership contest: He publically announced he will oppose any further extension beyond October 31st, unless it is to hold a referendum.
So as from now on, ALL candidates can just focus on what it takes to exit orderly and on how to avoid not having the crucial transition period in stead of entertain their party membership with variations of re-negotiations, managed no deals and what else, often combined with extra delays.
You got to give it to Mr. Macron, he sure knows how to refocus freewheeling Tory politicians right when they all try to get the attention of Trump.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1T41X1
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:52 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
President Macron just helped focus the Tory leadership contest: He publically announced he will oppose any further extension beyond October 31st, unless it is to hold a referendum.
So as from now on, ALL candidates can just focus on what it takes to exit orderly and on how to avoid not having the crucial transition period in stead of entertain their party membership with variations of re-negotiations, managed no deals and what else, often combined with extra delays.
You got to give it to Mr. Macron, he sure knows how to refocus freewheeling Tory politicians right when they all try to get the attention of Trump.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKCN1T41X1


He sure does not know to handle the protesters that are smashing up France every weekend. Nor can he seem to cope or manage illegal migrants in Northern France.

As much as flop as any other leader is old Macron.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:55 pm

wingman wrote:
Despite Brexit the UK still pulls magic rabbits out the hat, in addition to the lovely landscaping today in London:

http://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-faces-g ... 00714.html


You got to love Brittish humor.


Brilliant video
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:42 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
He sure does not know to handle the protesters that are smashing up France every weekend. Nor can he seem to cope or manage illegal migrants in Northern France.

As much as flop as any other leader is old Macron.


The protests are handled, and as a result he made a decent score at the EU elections. Illegal immigrants in Northern France want to go to your country, should we help them out ?

Macron has just seen his approval ratings rise to 40%, which for a French president is quite high after two years in office. He will be there for the next 8 years, get used to him.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
He sure does not know to handle the protesters that are smashing up France every weekend. Nor can he seem to cope or manage illegal migrants in Northern France.

As much as flop as any other leader is old Macron.


The protests are handled, and as a result he made a decent score at the EU elections. Illegal immigrants in Northern France want to go to your country, should we help them out ?

Macron has just seen his approval ratings rise to 40%, which for a French president is quite high after two years in office. He will be there for the next 8 years, get used to him.


If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:03 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
He sure does not know to handle the protesters that are smashing up France every weekend. Nor can he seem to cope or manage illegal migrants in Northern France.

As much as flop as any other leader is old Macron.


The protests are handled, and as a result he made a decent score at the EU elections. Illegal immigrants in Northern France want to go to your country, should we help them out ?

Macron has just seen his approval ratings rise to 40%, which for a French president is quite high after two years in office. He will be there for the next 8 years, get used to him.


If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.


You are going to lecture France and tell them what to do? Interesting philosophy since you are a Brexiteer on record denouncing any foreign influence.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

The protests are handled, and as a result he made a decent score at the EU elections. Illegal immigrants in Northern France want to go to your country, should we help them out ?

Macron has just seen his approval ratings rise to 40%, which for a French president is quite high after two years in office. He will be there for the next 8 years, get used to him.


If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.


You are going to lecture France and tell them what to do? Interesting philosophy since you are a Brexiteer on record denouncing any foreign influence.


I am pretty sure it is what most rational people in France would want and it stops them risking their lives getting dinghies and climbing under lorries to try and get into the UK.

What do you suggest? Let them carry on living in shanty towns in Calais and Dunkirk? No status, no support.

Besides you can’t really compare our decision to leave the wretched EU to illegal migrants in France.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:52 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.


You are going to lecture France and tell them what to do? Interesting philosophy since you are a Brexiteer on record denouncing any foreign influence.


I am pretty sure it is what most rational people in France would want and it stops them risking their lives getting dinghies and climbing under lorries to try and get into the UK.

What do you suggest? Let them carry on living in shanty towns in Calais and Dunkirk? No status, no support.

Besides you can’t really compare our decision to leave the wretched EU to illegal migrants in France.


It just amazes me that you decided to lecture to another country, the content doesn't matter.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are going to lecture France and tell them what to do? Interesting philosophy since you are a Brexiteer on record denouncing any foreign influence.


I am pretty sure it is what most rational people in France would want and it stops them risking their lives getting dinghies and climbing under lorries to try and get into the UK.

What do you suggest? Let them carry on living in shanty towns in Calais and Dunkirk? No status, no support.

Besides you can’t really compare our decision to leave the wretched EU to illegal migrants in France.


It just amazes me that you decided to lecture to another country, the content doesn't matter.


You’re kidding, right? All you have done throughout this entire thread is lecture us from Holland about how terrible Brexit is.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are going to lecture France and tell them what to do? Interesting philosophy since you are a Brexiteer on record denouncing any foreign influence.


I am pretty sure it is what most rational people in France would want and it stops them risking their lives getting dinghies and climbing under lorries to try and get into the UK.

What do you suggest? Let them carry on living in shanty towns in Calais and Dunkirk? No status, no support.

Besides you can’t really compare our decision to leave the wretched EU to illegal migrants in France.


It just amazes me that you decided to lecture to another country, the content doesn't matter.


Well it is no different to the crap I read from you Euros on here about Brexit, deciding what is best for us.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:21 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
...


I am a little surprised by your hostility against Macron and France on a day that should be a happy day for you when Macron significantly helped your beloved brexit to happen without delays that I suppose you hate. Why are you not happy?
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:27 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Ah, that’s a shy way to admit TM wasn’t trying to maintain UK in the SM but I’ll take it anyway.


Put a kid in charge of a lolly shop they are going to eat some lollies, put a remainer in charge of exiting the EU they are going to look for ways of remaining by sleight of hand




Grizzly410 wrote:
If it’s not self-evident for you what’s the best for the 27 members between protect the Single Market and take a hit short term or undermine it for a 3rd country interest, we can’t do much for you.


How are we undermining the single market, do you think that 100% of all goods coming from 3rd countries are inspected now, that’s physically impossible. If ROI citizens cross the border and buy non-standard goods that’s up to the ROI/EU to police



Grizzly410 wrote:
There is no reason to walk back on anything, EU won’t. Get over it.


Im fine if that’s what you want, no deal exit is coming up fast and the only way to stop it is by legislators and it has been acknowledged that there isn’t any time to do it, it’s already in legislation that we leave, if the government dosnt ask for another extension.



Grizzly410 wrote:
And there you go again.
You definitively have to put this argument to rest. The WA doesn’t maintain the UK within the SM, nor in the CU actually.


And what do you think happens if the EU doesn’t agree with the border for any reason?

Small hint: “In the absence of agreed solutions being reached by the time the transition period is scheduled to end in December 2020, the UK will maintain full alignment with the rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union”



Grizzly410 wrote:
At some point you’ll have to understand that’s International Treaty negociation not kindergarden one. EU requires the backstop because it doesn’t believe UK can come up with a workable solution keeping the border open during the Transition period timeframe, if UK have one, a true one, EU will have to accept it in good faith.


The border is open to free movement of Irish citizens, there’s nothing in the GFA that states we have to remain in the same regulatory jurisdiction, and for those reason you just mentioned is why parliament will not pass the WA as the EU will just object to all proposals as that is where the EU benefits the most.

Grizzly410 wrote:
Btw there is nothing stopping anyone to present a solution right now, no need to negociate with anybody : a reality check by experts will be quickly available in different medias. But unfortunately so far nobody raise its hand, on the opposite most of Tories in leadership race are so clueless they prefer defend no deal !! => makes me think EU rather smart to request a backstop in exchange of an orderly exit.


Wrong the EU will not negotiate untill the WA is signed in its current form, an internal EU reports shows it is possabile, but that dose not suit the EU narrative, say it often enough and it must be true.


Grizzly410 wrote:
As you seems to be in the know, so affirmative, would you be so kind to explain us a bit what a workable solution looks like in practice ?



If you look back I’ve done that a couple of times already with some suggestions, but unfortunately remainers are so blinkered anything other than the CU/SM is unacceptable.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:55 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.


Well since we are legally still in the EU anyone claiming asylum who arrive in the UK after passing through another EU country can, under certain circumstances, be returned to the first EU country they entered, under an EU law known as the Dublin Regulation.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:51 am

A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.


Well since we are legally still in the EU anyone claiming asylum who arrive in the UK after passing through another EU country can, under certain circumstances, be returned to the first EU country they entered, under an EU law known as the Dublin Regulation.


Yes indeed and having a UK national indentity card like the EU promotes for all of it's member states would massively ease the task of police to quickly identify illegal immigrants amongst the ethnically very diverse British population, once away from the shores…
But then, your politicians were against this tool of course, because it's an idea coming from Brussels, so it must be a bad idea…
Another nice example of how self-inflicted complications are blamed on the EU by British politicians!

Now the interesting thing is that once the UK leaves the EU without any sort of a deal like some now advocate, the Dubliin regulation can no longer be enforced and so France (and others like Belgium and the Netherlands) could just decide to let all those transit-migrants who want nothing but reach the UK to simply cross the channel unhindered.
Imagine how easy it's going to be to take back control of your borders then, if the Europeans adopt the Turkish attitude of a couple of years ago and give free passage to all who want to reach their goal!
Heck, they can even sell their renewed services to block them from trying to reach the UK in return for an annual multi-billion dollar payment plus other perks! ;)
Insane, isn't it? Well, it's basically how Turkey did it.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pres ... statement/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:15 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I am pretty sure it is what most rational people in France would want and it stops them risking their lives getting dinghies and climbing under lorries to try and get into the UK.

What do you suggest? Let them carry on living in shanty towns in Calais and Dunkirk? No status, no support.

Besides you can’t really compare our decision to leave the wretched EU to illegal migrants in France.


It just amazes me that you decided to lecture to another country, the content doesn't matter.


Well it is no different to the crap I read from you Euros on here about Brexit, deciding what is best for us.


The irony is that you are crying about the sovereignty of nations and but here you go. I am not crying about self-control, you are, I believe in cooperation and solve problems where they are best handled, world level, EU level, National level, local level.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:16 am

A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.


Well since we are legally still in the EU anyone claiming asylum who arrive in the UK after passing through another EU country can, under certain circumstances, be returned to the first EU country they entered, under an EU law known as the Dublin Regulation.


Yes, this is true.
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:17 am

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I am pretty sure it is what most rational people in France would want and it stops them risking their lives getting dinghies and climbing under lorries to try and get into the UK.

What do you suggest? Let them carry on living in shanty towns in Calais and Dunkirk? No status, no support.

Besides you can’t really compare our decision to leave the wretched EU to illegal migrants in France.


It just amazes me that you decided to lecture to another country, the content doesn't matter.


You’re kidding, right? All you have done throughout this entire thread is lecture us from Holland about how terrible Brexit is.


It is, and it is terrible for my country, so my country is directly hurt by the stupidity of the Brexitremist.
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:09 pm

A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

If they do not wish to claim asylum in France, they should be detained and deported.


Well since we are legally still in the EU anyone claiming asylum who arrive in the UK after passing through another EU country can, under certain circumstances, be returned to the first EU country they entered, under an EU law known as the Dublin Regulation.


Yes, another example of some regulation made by all those unelected bureucrats in Brussels. Yes, there is a lot of grief, a lot of immigrants, coming to our beautiful home from that city. But no worries A101! I have been talking to a BoJo on a few occasions and we both agreed that after the Brexit, a border no access zone will be created. Imagine a strip of land, 10 miles wide, filled with, yes heroic!, officers of our newly formed border force, searching for immigrants 24/7. BoJo is already talking to some people in Moscow about this, as Russia has a long lasting experience with such zones. Generally the feel is that the UK could be immigrant free as soon as 2nd of November 2019. BoJo promised, and his word is worth a lot.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:24 pm

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
If it’s not self-evident for you what’s the best for the 27 members between protect the Single Market and take a hit short term or undermine it for a 3rd country interest, we can’t do much for you.

How are we undermining the single market, do you think that 100% of all goods coming from 3rd countries are inspected now, that’s physically impossible. If ROI citizens cross the border and buy non-standard goods that’s up to the ROI/EU to police

That’s not the point. EU have process in place for trade with 3rd country and no reason to make any favor for an ex-member becoming 3rd country.
It is obvious if we relax the border policy for UK as 3rd country we will have to do it for the others, that’s what I mean by “undermining the SM”. We don’t want to.

Take the border between Turkey and Bulgaria as an example (well, as we have a custom union in place with Turkey, the actual ROI/NI crossing should be worse, without speaking of Dover/Calais), that’s this kind of border we are talking about.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44054594
And of course, people too needs to be checked.

A101 wrote:
I’m fine if that’s what you want, no deal exit is coming up fast and the only way to stop it is by legislators and it has been acknowledged that there isn’t any time to do it, it’s already in legislation that we leave, if the government dosnt ask for another extension.

Yes the deadline is coming, just like the famous march 29th came and… nothing. Don’t expect too much from the octobre deadline and especially not an exit no deal.
My bet : UK will beg another extension.

A101 wrote:
And what do you think happens if the EU doesn’t agree with the border for any reason?

Small hint: “In the absence of agreed solutions being reached by the time the transition period is scheduled to end in December 2020, the UK will maintain full alignment with the rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union”

Stop being paranoid. If a true workable and practical exist there is no reason for EU to refuse… It could ease the handling of all its others borders, why don’t go for it ?

A101 wrote:
The border is open to free movement of Irish citizens, there’s nothing in the GFA that states we have to remain in the same regulatory jurisdiction, and for those reason you just mentioned is why parliament will not pass the WA as the EU will just object to all proposals as that is where the EU benefits the most.

That is where EU benefits the most of what exactly ?
Look above, even a custom union deal makes necessary checks at the border, ie an infrastructure. I understood that was a problem for the GFA, or at least for the peace process (as in 1998 GFA couldn’t envisage one of the party will want to “take back control of its border”). You may think it isn’t, but from what we can read in Irish newspaper that’s a very important concern.

A101 wrote:
Wrong the EU will not negotiate untill the WA is signed in its current form, an internal EU reports shows it is possible, but that dose not suit the EU narrative, say it often enough and it must be true.

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
As you seems to be in the know, so affirmative, would you be so kind to explain us a bit what a workable solution looks like in practice ?

If you look back I’ve done that a couple of times already with some suggestions, but unfortunately remainers are so blinkered anything other than the CU/SM is unacceptable.

Following the thread for long enough to remember the exchange but can’t find the posts unfortunately. Care to provide a link to the internal report then ?
Anyway, I’m afraid that’s the unfortunate truth you refuse to accept : anything other than CU/SM implies heavy checks/paperwork at the border. You can be personally fine with it but it seems quite different for the Irish, and if UK is ready to throw NI under the bus EU will not do that for ROI. => The backstop will not go away.
Keep dreaming of your no deal, you still have some months ahead before the alarm bell goes off.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:14 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:

That’s not the point. EU have process in place for trade with 3rd country and no reason to make any favor for an ex-member becoming 3rd country.
It is obvious if we relax the border policy for UK as 3rd country we will have to do it for the others, that’s what I mean by “undermining the SM”. We don’t want to.


Well thank you for acknowledging that the EU does not want to negotiate on the border issue, which vindicates the UK Parliament‘s stance on not ratifying the WA, no matter what the UK proposes the EU will reject


Grizzly410 wrote:
Take the border between Turkey and Bulgaria as an example (well, as we have a custom union in place with Turkey, the actual ROI/NI crossing should be worse, without speaking of Dover/Calais), that’s this kind of border we are talking about.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44054594

And of course, people too needs to be checked.


Mmm, by your reckonings all the bluster on protecting ROI is just a lot of hot air. You have just shown that the EU will not recognise ROI sovereign right to let them choose whom can enter and who cannot and under what conditions




Grizzly410 wrote:
Yes the deadline is coming, just like the famous march 29th came and… nothing. Don’t expect too much from the octobre deadline and especially not an exit no deal.
My bet : UK will beg another extension.


Nothing would surprise me anymore, but that will depend on who gets the nod anyway.

Grizzly410 wrote:
Stop being paranoid. If a true workable and practical exist there is no reason for EU to refuse… It could ease the handling of all its others borders, why don’t go for it ?


Hold your horses there old mate, are you say that if the UK comes up with a solution it now must fit with the criteria that it must also work with all other land borders, because you can’t have seperate arrangements between borders?




Grizzly410 wrote:
That is where EU benefits the most of what exactly ?

So if we sign the WA and “ the UK will maintain full alignment with the rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union” we don’t have throw into the kitty............crikey get that on paper within the WA and we will sign immediately

Grizzly410 wrote:
Look above, even a custom union deal makes necessary checks at the border, ie an infrastructure. I understood that was a problem for the GFA, or at least for the peace process (as in 1998 GFA couldn’t envisage one of the party will want to “take back control of its border”). You may think it isn’t, but from what we can read in Irish newspaper that’s a very important concern.


Here’s were you are wrong after 73 the border was a security checkpoint not a customs checkpoint, goods and citizens had free move to, the security checkpoint was to check for smuggling of weapons and explosives and checks for known terrorists

Grizzly410 wrote:
Following the thread for long enough to remember the exchange but can’t find the posts unfortunately. Care to provide a link to the internal report then ?


The border report?

https://www.governmenteuropa.eu/smart-b ... der/91512/




Grizzly410 wrote:

Anyway, I’m afraid that’s the unfortunate truth you refuse to accept : anything other than CU/SM implies heavy checks/paperwork at the border. You can be personally fine with it but it seems quite different for the Irish, and if UK is ready to throw NI under the bus EU will not do that for ROI. => The backstop will not go away.
Keep dreaming of your no deal, you still have some months ahead before the alarm bell goes off.


From the above report

“Is it possible to have a frictionless border with Smart Border 2.0?

The simple answer to this is yes. There are no frictionless borders in operations at this moment in time, but as I have stated on numerous occasions, the model I described has, in the past, been tested operationally, by EU and Norway, during four years on the Sweden-Norway-border.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:09 pm

A101 wrote:
From the above report

“Is it possible to have a frictionless border with Smart Border 2.0?

The simple answer to this is yes. There are no frictionless borders in operations at this moment in time, but as I have stated on numerous occasions, the model I described has, in the past, been tested operationally, by EU and Norway, during four years on the Sweden-Norway-border.


Yes, it might be possible in ten years and a massive amount of investment. Don't know if the UK government is vastly more efficient when if comes to IT projects than the Dutch government, but I can hardly believe it. Do you want to add this to the 39bn tap?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:14 pm

@Grizzly140

The original report, got my links mixed up

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:20 am

Dutchy wrote:

Yes, it might be possible in ten years and a massive amount of investment. Don't know if the UK government is vastly more efficient when if comes to IT projects than the Dutch government, but I can hardly believe it. Do you want to add this to the 39bn tap?



10 years is a bit of exaggeration, yes their is alway problems that unexpected but using the Sweden/Norway model Vidar Gundersen believes it would take about 18mths, but as we have seen from the EU it’s not in their interests to work together

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41412561


“It is possible to set up solutions with smooth border crossings without stopping - the technology is there already," says Anita. She says the UK could get such a system up and running within 18 months.

Vidar believes the UK has an advantage because it is starting with a clean sheet. But he says collaboration between countries and businesses is vital: "You have to work on this together and everyone has to see this as a common challenge still to solve."
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:35 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Yes, it might be possible in ten years and a massive amount of investment. Don't know if the UK government is vastly more efficient when if comes to IT projects than the Dutch government, but I can hardly believe it. Do you want to add this to the 39bn tap?



10 years is a bit of exaggeration, yes their is alway problems that unexpected but using the Sweden/Norway model Vidar Gundersen believes it would take about 18mths, but as we have seen from the EU it’s not in their interests to work together

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41412561


“It is possible to set up solutions with smooth border crossings without stopping - the technology is there already," says Anita. She says the UK could get such a system up and running within 18 months.

Vidar believes the UK has an advantage because it is starting with a clean sheet. But he says collaboration between countries and businesses is vital: "You have to work on this together and everyone has to see this as a common challenge still to solve."


I guess you are more of an optimist than I am, you believe that the UK government will implement a complicated IT system smoothness within 18 months. But heck, you believe Brexit will be beneficial to the UK, so you have to be an optimist, rowing against the stream like that.

Thanks for the linked article, did you bother to actually read it? If you did you would know the following:
- Lorrie drivers are held up for 8 minutes, while not that much you might say, it adds up.
- It isn't a frictionless border which was promised in the Good Friday Agreement
- There is a physical and especially a visible border, which doesn't go down well with the Irish.

So all you prove with that article that it isn't a solution for the problem at hand. Well done.

Anyhow, it might be interesting for the Dover crossing though, but 8min per Lorrie translates in a loss of working hours, thus adding to the annual cost of 65million Euro's, or about 1 pound annually to your bills and that is just one crossing and just the added cost for transport, nothing else. Feels good to have so much control right?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 am

I've heard one of the PM contenders say, with a straight face, that the backstop wasn't necessary because the tech border he's proposing will be ready in 2030 !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:42 am

A101 wrote:
@Grizzly140

The original report, got my links mixed up

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf


LSE wrote:
Firstly, it should be clarified that this is not an “EU report” as some have alluded to but rather a report that was presented by its author to the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) for consideration.

Secondly, what is proposed in this report involves the erection of physical infrastructure such as cameras and gates – this is in direct contradiction to UK Government Policy. It also recommends manned posts at the busiest border crossings and fails to address how local traffic will be dealt with.

Furthermore, the technology proposed in this report is untested. This creates concern about the reality of such a system operating to the standards that will be required by the EU. The EU Committee of the House of Lords recently concluded in its examination of the issue that there is “little prospect that the technology required entirely to resolve the Irish border issue could become operational under the timetable for Brexit currently envisaged”.

Finally, the issue of regulatory and standards checks including animal welfare and sanitary and phytosanitary checks is not addressed. This is a key element of cross-border trade with “food and live animals” accounting for a third of Northern Irish exports to the Republic in 2016. These checks need to take place at borders and will be mandatory if the North diverges on regulations. The failure to address this, shows why we need to look for alternative wide-ranging solutions such as a new customs arrangement between the UK and the EU to address this issue.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/ ... rt-enough/

Next ?

And from your post above. You start grasping it, it's true EU doesn't want to negotiate the border issue, the negotiation period is over now.
UK have its red lines, EU too and the WA was agreed between each executive representants based on those red lines. It's an internal matter of yours that makes it not yet ratified to the point you had to request two extensions.

A101 wrote:
Hold your horses there old mate, are you say that if the UK comes up with a solution it now must fit with the criteria that it must also work with all other land borders, because you can’t have seperate arrangements between borders?

Remember we are talking about the BACKSTOP, something entering in force in case we can't reach arrangements during the Transition Period. Therefore yes, it must be workable for any other land border.
Only you brexiters wants to see it as a definitive solution, which is not, "because the evil EU will trap UK inside"...
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:14 am

Aesma wrote:
I've heard one of the PM contenders say, with a straight face, that the backstop wasn't necessary because the tech border he's proposing will be ready in 2030 !


He is a realist, so Brexit will be postponed till 2030.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
From the above report

“Is it possible to have a frictionless border with Smart Border 2.0?

The simple answer to this is yes. There are no frictionless borders in operations at this moment in time, but as I have stated on numerous occasions, the model I described has, in the past, been tested operationally, by EU and Norway, during four years on the Sweden-Norway-border.


Yes, it might be possible in ten years and a massive amount of investment. Don't know if the UK government is vastly more efficient when if comes to IT projects than the Dutch government, but I can hardly believe it. Do you want to add this to the 39bn tap?


Nope I should think it's worse. See NHS Connecting for Health (CFH - £12 billion) + Crossrail as recent examples.

Boris can't even get a bridge bulit over the Thames or buy water cannons without loosing millions of pounds either.

Putting up Camera's on every crossing I cannot imagine is physically doable. None of the locals want any sort of border back either.
I don't buy in to a frictionless border being possible here.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:50 am

Reinhardt wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
From the above report

“Is it possible to have a frictionless border with Smart Border 2.0?

The simple answer to this is yes. There are no frictionless borders in operations at this moment in time, but as I have stated on numerous occasions, the model I described has, in the past, been tested operationally, by EU and Norway, during four years on the Sweden-Norway-border.


Yes, it might be possible in ten years and a massive amount of investment. Don't know if the UK government is vastly more efficient when if comes to IT projects than the Dutch government, but I can hardly believe it. Do you want to add this to the 39bn tap?


Nope I should think it's worse. See NHS Connecting for Health (CFH - £12 billion) + Crossrail as recent examples.

Boris can't even get a bridge bulit over the Thames or buy water cannons without loosing millions of pounds either.

Putting up Camera's on every crossing I cannot imagine is physically doable. None of the locals want any sort of border back either.
I don't buy in to a frictionless border being possible here.


I don't buy into that either, but the premise of the hard Brexiteers is that it is easy. Looking at the Norway example clearly shows it isn't easy and it isn't frictionless either. And it is indeed most visible. So it taps all the boxes locals don't want and thus goes against everything the Good Friday Agreement aims to be. So back to square one.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:48 pm

Many norwegian companies opens activities inside EU in order to sell to EU companies.

Swedish customers avoids to buy from Norway if alternatives exists for practical reasons.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Thanks for the linked article, did you bother to actually read it?


Of course I did,I’m just not as selective as you when you read the whole article


Dutchy wrote:
- Lorrie drivers are held up for 8 minutes, while not that much you might say, it adds up.
- There is a physical and especially a visible border, which doesn't go down well with the Irish.


You do realise it is a template and this border has been long before the single market, but what you failed to take into account is that “It is possible to set up solutions with smooth border crossings without stopping - the technology is there already," says Anita. She says the UK could get such a system up and running within 18 months. But it has to be a collaboration between both ROI/UK but once again the sticking point will be Brussels as it’s not in their interests.

Dutchy wrote:
It isn't a frictionless border which was promised in the Good Friday Agreement


I have ask you this a number of times which you fail to respond to, but again please show me the section where it actually says in the GFA that the border has to be frictionless for trade also while your at it, can you also show me the sections relevant to customs posts or regulatory controls. thank you
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:19 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It isn't a frictionless border which was promised in the Good Friday Agreement


I have ask you this a number of times which you fail to respond to, but again please show me the section where it actually says in the GFA that the border has to be frictionless for trade also while your at it, can you also show me the sections relevant to customs posts or regulatory controls. thank you


Look, as long as you do not accept that the GFA was written in the spirit of a frictionless and invisible border than it is quite pointless to discuss this with you. This was the whole point of the GFA and you want to put the border up again because of the two regimes. That is something which is unsolvable and that is what you fail to understand or don't want to understand.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:31 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
@Grizzly140

The original report, got my links mixed up

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf


LSE wrote:
Firstly, it should be clarified that this is not an “EU report” as some have alluded to but rather a report that was presented by its author to the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) for consideration.

Secondly, what is proposed in this report involves the erection of physical infrastructure such as cameras and gates – this is in direct contradiction to UK Government Policy. It also recommends manned posts at the busiest border crossings and fails to address how local traffic will be dealt with.

Furthermore, the technology proposed in this report is untested. This creates concern about the reality of such a system operating to the standards that will be required by the EU. The EU Committee of the House of Lords recently concluded in its examination of the issue that there is “little prospect that the technology required entirely to resolve the Irish border issue could become operational under the timetable for Brexit currently envisaged”.

Finally, the issue of regulatory and standards checks including animal welfare and sanitary and phytosanitary checks is not addressed. This is a key element of cross-border trade with “food and live animals” accounting for a third of Northern Irish exports to the Republic in 2016. These checks need to take place at borders and will be mandatory if the North diverges on regulations. The failure to address this, shows why we need to look for alternative wide-ranging solutions such as a new customs arrangement between the UK and the EU to address this issue.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/ ... rt-enough/

Next ?

And from your post above. You start grasping it, it's true EU doesn't want to negotiate the border issue, the negotiation period is over now.
UK have its red lines, EU too and the WA was agreed between each executive representants based on those red lines. It's an internal matter of yours that makes it not yet ratified to the point you had to request two extensions.

A101 wrote:
Hold your horses there old mate, are you say that if the UK comes up with a solution it now must fit with the criteria that it must also work with all other land borders, because you can’t have seperate arrangements between borders?

Remember we are talking about the BACKSTOP, something entering in force in case we can't reach arrangements during the Transition Period. Therefore yes, it must be workable for any other land border.
Only you brexiters wants to see it as a definitive solution, which is not, "because the evil EU will trap UK inside"...



It’s widely acknowledged that thru the British Irish Chamber of Commerce agrees with both the UK and Irish Governments that the solution for the island of Ireland should be found through a comprehensive future framework for trade, for which Brussels will not negotiate, TM emboldened brussels when she signed an agreement before she knew she could get it past parliament, I acknowledge that the current fiasco is solely the governments own doing because she didn’t follow her own advice, “no deal is better than a bad deal”
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:29 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It isn't a frictionless border which was promised in the Good Friday Agreement


I have ask you this a number of times which you fail to respond to, but again please show me the section where it actually says in the GFA that the border has to be frictionless for trade also while your at it, can you also show me the sections relevant to customs posts or regulatory controls. thank you


Look, as long as you do not accept that the GFA was written in the spirit of a frictionless and invisible border than it is quite pointless to discuss this with you. This was the whole point of the GFA and you want to put the border up again because of the two regimes. That is something which is unsolvable and that is what you fail to understand or don't want to understand.



Yes it is impossible to discuss with you because you do not understand the fundamentals of the reasons behind the Belfsst Agreement, and it’s nothing to do with trade, if it was then when both nations joined the EEC the troubles would have stopped for good back in 73. Even now 20 years after the agreement was put in place and we have been in the same customs union there continue to be incidents of terrorism. The border has been open since 1922 for the free movement of Irish citizens so the the Belfast agreement is not about trade.

Also tell me why also in “Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 29 March 2019” (produced December 2018)document by the ROI that when it comes to cross border road movements that it fails to mention infrastructure. That also tells me that ROI wants to collaborate with the UK and make the border as frictionless as possible as well but are being impeded by those who have actually no vested interests in the Irish border except to see it as a bargaining chip
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:40 pm

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

I have ask you this a number of times which you fail to respond to, but again please show me the section where it actually says in the GFA that the border has to be frictionless for trade also while your at it, can you also show me the sections relevant to customs posts or regulatory controls. thank you


Look, as long as you do not accept that the GFA was written in the spirit of a frictionless and invisible border than it is quite pointless to discuss this with you. This was the whole point of the GFA and you want to put the border up again because of the two regimes. That is something which is unsolvable and that is what you fail to understand or don't want to understand.



Yes it is impossible to discuss with you because you do not understand the fundamentals of the reasons behind the Belfsst Agreement, and it’s nothing to do with trade, if it was then when both nations joined the EEC the troubles would have stopped for good back in 73. Even now 20 years after the agreement was put in place and we have been in the same customs union there continue to be incidents of terrorism. The border has been open since 1922 for the free movement of Irish citizens so the the Belfast agreement is not about trade.

Also tell me why also in “Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 29 March 2019” (produced December 2018)document by the ROI that when it comes to cross border road movements that it fails to mention infrastructure. That also tells me that ROI wants to collaborate with the UK and make the border as frictionless as possible as well but are being impeded by those who have actually no vested interests in the Irish border except to see it as a bargaining chip


Sure, what ever, think thst the EU wants to use it as a bargaining chip, you look at the EU in a very distorted way anyway.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Sure, what ever, think thst the EU wants to use it as a bargaining chip, you look at the EU in a very distorted way anyway.


Nothing distorted about it at all, the EU see a weakness and are prepared to exploit it, that’s business.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:06 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Now the interesting thing is that once the UK leaves the EU without any sort of a deal like some now advocate, the Dubliin regulation can no longer be enforced and so France (and others like Belgium and the Netherlands) could just decide to let all those transit-migrants who want nothing but reach the UK to simply cross the channel unhindered.

Regardless of Brexit, I do not understand how the transit-migrants work, the majority of illegal migrants in Northern France trying to reach the UK and elsewhere did not land in France, additionally, freedom of movement does not apply to illegal immigrants.
So how do they get from Italy to France, why is France not sending them back to Italy as EU rules require but can use them as leverage against the UK?

If the UK leaves the EU, the issue of illegal immigrants entering France or other EU countries remains, all that would happen is that one end of the equation will be gone. Italy has been complaining for years about the burden, do they turn a blind eye and let some leave to relieve the burden, is France and others doing the same?
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:01 am

Because France asked time and time the UK to change some of its rules (like ID cards) to be less attractive to theses migrants. The UK flat out refused. So the obvious answer to that is: as you don't want to act on your side we will give you minimum service and we will not fight with other EU countries to send them back migrants that are just going thru.
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:12 am

par13del wrote:
Regardless of Brexit, I do not understand how the transit-migrants work, the majority of illegal migrants in Northern France trying to reach the UK and elsewhere did not land in France, additionally, freedom of movement does not apply to illegal immigrants.
So how do they get from Italy to France?


You are clearly not fully understanding FoM and mixing it up with passport free travel:

1/ FoM is a citizen right of EU citizens only which allows them to move to and settle in any EU country.

2/ Passport free travel is something which comes with the Schengen Area and basically means all people within the area can travel from one Schengen country to another without being checked at the border.

The 2 things do not mean the same and although in many cases they do overlap, they don't have to: the UK for intance is in the EU (and thus has FoM), but is outside of the Schengenzone (and thus has border posts checking passports upon entry to the UK), but because of item 1, they can not refuse entry to EU citizens, leading many to think that leaving the EU would mean 'truely taking back control of our borders', whereas as I have tried to explain you, the very opposite may very well be true if the French play it not so nicely...

To reply to your question: those transit migrants enter the Schengen Area somewhere illegally via its almost endless costal borders in the east and south of Europe and then make their way up throughout the different Schengen memberstates pretty much unhindered, similar to how somebody landing in Scotland could make his way unhindered to the south of England...
Only when they turn up at the French coast just before their attempt to cross the Channel are they held back by French police in respect of the Touquet agreement and so the French (and the Belgians and Dutch to a lesser degree) are until now so kind to take on a massive humanitarian burden which should actually be a purely British one: i.e. it that of holding back and hosting unwanted immigrants on behalf of the UK.

Some interesting reading on the particular arrangement and the risk to it because of Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nce-saying
Also, note how the then French minister who made the chilling treat is called…
Hold a minute! Don't you know him as somebody else today? ;)
I hope the UK is also preparing not only to create additional parking lots in the south east, but also ample space for a Dover Jungle.

FoM, Schengen, Le Touquet agreement... they all seem pretty much the same to many Brits, but they aren't!
The total lack of understanding of all the legal subtleties by most ordinary people like you yourself admit as well as the refusal to try to explain it as simple as possible to them by their politicians is going to bite the UK very badly as it will discover many many unwanted consequences of its departure from the EU (and all that goes with it) as they develop. By leaving the EU with no deal, the UK hands France (and others) the possiblility to basically control the flow of migrants towards it! How do you like the prospect of Macron holding his hand on the tap, able to tun it open anytime he wants some concessions from the British government? Remember it's just a few miles from Calais to Dover, and all that is needed is a day of good weather and few rubber boats to fill the British coasts with immigrants… and the British tabloids with pictures of their arrival!
I remember that at some point the Turks were said to offer lifevests to all Syrians willing to cross into Greece, allegedly on a purely humanitarian basis... I can imagine the French being so 'noble' too: it's basically what that then French minister has said, didn't he?
Bojo will surely love the idea of it once he's PM... ;)
Last edited by sabenapilot on Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:29 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Sure, what ever, think thst the EU wants to use it as a bargaining chip, you look at the EU in a very distorted way anyway.


Nothing distorted about it at all, the EU see a weakness and are prepared to exploit it, that’s business.


The EU doesn't have to exploit anything, the UK is in full self destruct mode anyway. If the EU wanted to exploit anything, Gibraltar would be must easier and logical. I understand that feels comfortable to shift blame, but this is totally on the Brexitremist, nobody else.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
A101 wrote:
@Grizzly140

The original report, got my links mixed up

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf


LSE wrote:
Firstly, it should be clarified that this is not an “EU report” as some have alluded to but rather a report that was presented by its author to the European Parliament’s Committee on Constitutional Affairs (AFCO) for consideration.

Secondly, what is proposed in this report involves the erection of physical infrastructure such as cameras and gates – this is in direct contradiction to UK Government Policy. It also recommends manned posts at the busiest border crossings and fails to address how local traffic will be dealt with.

Furthermore, the technology proposed in this report is untested. This creates concern about the reality of such a system operating to the standards that will be required by the EU. The EU Committee of the House of Lords recently concluded in its examination of the issue that there is “little prospect that the technology required entirely to resolve the Irish border issue could become operational under the timetable for Brexit currently envisaged”.

Finally, the issue of regulatory and standards checks including animal welfare and sanitary and phytosanitary checks is not addressed. This is a key element of cross-border trade with “food and live animals” accounting for a third of Northern Irish exports to the Republic in 2016. These checks need to take place at borders and will be mandatory if the North diverges on regulations. The failure to address this, shows why we need to look for alternative wide-ranging solutions such as a new customs arrangement between the UK and the EU to address this issue.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/ ... rt-enough/

Next ?

And from your post above. You start grasping it, it's true EU doesn't want to negotiate the border issue, the negotiation period is over now.
UK have its red lines, EU too and the WA was agreed between each executive representants based on those red lines. It's an internal matter of yours that makes it not yet ratified to the point you had to request two extensions.

A101 wrote:
Hold your horses there old mate, are you say that if the UK comes up with a solution it now must fit with the criteria that it must also work with all other land borders, because you can’t have seperate arrangements between borders?

Remember we are talking about the BACKSTOP, something entering in force in case we can't reach arrangements during the Transition Period. Therefore yes, it must be workable for any other land border.
Only you brexiters wants to see it as a definitive solution, which is not, "because the evil EU will trap UK inside"...



It’s widely acknowledged that thru the British Irish Chamber of Commerce agrees with both the UK and Irish Governments that the solution for the island of Ireland should be found through a comprehensive future framework for trade, for which Brussels will not negotiate, TM emboldened brussels when she signed an agreement before she knew she could get it past parliament, I acknowledge that the current fiasco is solely the governments own doing because she didn’t follow her own advice, “no deal is better than a bad deal”


It has been explained to you times and times again why future trade agreement terms cannot be negotiated before the departure. That’s a legal issue, UK cannot seat on both sides of the negotiation table, it first needs to leave its seat on the EU side.
You must know the Political Declaration is a perfect place to express what kind of “future framework for trade” UK envisage, do you ?

She couldn’t follow “no deal is better than a bad deal”, nobody can actually : it’s an empty catch phrase from the beginning. How could anyone do anything but laugh at this is unbelievable.
There is no good deal available as you already have the best one, anything else is bad and the worse being obviously “no deal” at all.
Of course you’ll disagree, so : see you in late October when your next PM release its first extension request.

Olddog wrote:
Because France asked time and time the UK to change some of its rules (like ID cards) to be less attractive to theses migrants. The UK flat out refused. So the obvious answer to that is: as you don't want to act on your side we will give you minimum service and we will not fight with other EU countries to send them back migrants that are just going thru.


In my mind it was attractive to old colonies migrants coming there because they already have family or relatives in UK. Maybe the job market more liberal too, giving opportunity for anybody to work for a shit salary ? What else do they have making it so attractive for these guys to pile up in Calais looking for the rare opportunity to cross ?
Another issue UK could ease itself but prefer blame EU immigration politics ?
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2898
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:10 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
It has been explained to you times and times again why future trade agreement terms cannot be negotiated before the departure. That’s a legal issue, UK cannot seat on both sides of the negotiation table, it first needs to leave its seat on the EU side.


This ridiculous wish is yet another factual expression of the 'have our cake and eat it' attitude on display from almost the entire political elite in Westminster, which indeed makes no legal sense at all!

Just as Britain can't have its cake and eat it on the substance of the future relationship, it can't have it on the form nor on the way to negotiate it either.

It really seems the UK is trapped in a delusional self-belief which very much resembles the story of the emperor's new clothes… or rather the empire's new clothes, I should say!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 6: Encore un moment Monsieur le Bourreau

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:57 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
It really seems the UK is trapped in a delusional self-belief which very much resembles the story of the emperor's new clothes… or rather the empire's new clothes, I should say!


Some people for sure. The primus of Brexit being profitable is self-delusional.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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