caliboy93
Topic Author
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Doping in sports

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:49 am

How big is the doping issue in sports, and what actions can be taken to combat it more effectively? It's such a shame that it continues to happen.
 
User avatar
T18
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Doping in sports

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:05 am

The worst part to me is unlike most cheats that you catch mid competition, doping is really only caught after it has impacted a result making it very hard if not impossible to punish it in a way where the real winner gets credit. For example all the TDF titles that no one won because we found out later nearly every top rider was dirty.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9473
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Doping in sports

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:41 am

Sports are very compatative, of course, so the line between winning and loosing is small. Doping will help of course to bridge the gab. So it would be naive to think that you can ban doping complete. The question if state run / sport teams programs exist or that the individual atlete is experimenting with something. If it is state run or sports team run, then expel them. We have seen it with Russia, Russians weren't welcome for a while, which is a good signal. But don't be native in thinking you can radicate doping.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5949
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Doping in sports

Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:33 am

caliboy93 wrote:
How big is the doping issue in sports, and what actions can be taken to combat it more effectively? It's such a shame that it continues to happen.


What research have you already done on the issue?

One risk is in young athletes coming through from junior ranks to the 'elite' ranks who are often easily swayed into various supplements claiming all sorts of miracle effects and without full knowledge of what is in these things or, what else might have been produced in the same place where the original product. Some of those youngsters are still really just kids. That's where us older folk have to guide them.

Where it's worse is in the professional teams with big budgets, or the big state backed teams. They are the big problems.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:52 am

caliboy93 wrote:
How big is the doping issue in sports, and what actions can be taken to combat it more effectively? It's such a shame that it continues to happen.


All you have to do is look at the multitude of track and field records from the 80's which still haven't been broken, loads of dopers back then like Flo Jo, but we still allow the records to stand, records which will never be broken by a clean athlete. So there's incentive for all athletes today to use whatever advantage they can get.

Personally I think we should allow it, so many athletes have therapeutic exemptions for banned substances (I'm looking at you Serena Williams) they should just open it up to create a level playing field.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5949
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 am

Kiwirob wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
How big is the doping issue in sports, and what actions can be taken to combat it more effectively? It's such a shame that it continues to happen.


All you have to do is look at the multitude of track and field records from the 80's which still haven't been broken, loads of dopers back then like Flo Jo, but we still allow the records to stand, records which will never be broken by a clean athlete. So there's incentive for all athletes today to use whatever advantage they can get.

Personally I think we should allow it, so many athletes have therapeutic exemptions for banned substances (I'm looking at you Serena Williams) they should just open it up to create a level playing field.


Opening it up is fine, so long as you are forced to use those substances. I won't touch the stuff - I've heard the stories and it's pretty bad. The stuff could kill you.

Sure, I love being very fit, but I also like that I've done it through hard work - not through using all this crap.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:27 am

cpd wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
How big is the doping issue in sports, and what actions can be taken to combat it more effectively? It's such a shame that it continues to happen.


All you have to do is look at the multitude of track and field records from the 80's which still haven't been broken, loads of dopers back then like Flo Jo, but we still allow the records to stand, records which will never be broken by a clean athlete. So there's incentive for all athletes today to use whatever advantage they can get.

Personally I think we should allow it, so many athletes have therapeutic exemptions for banned substances (I'm looking at you Serena Williams) they should just open it up to create a level playing field.


Opening it up is fine, so long as you are forced to use those substances. I won't touch the stuff - I've heard the stories and it's pretty bad. The stuff could kill you.

Sure, I love being very fit, but I also like that I've done it through hard work - not through using all this crap.


All that crap doesn’t mean you still don’t have to work hard, just taking drugs without the training won’t get results.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:06 am

A special doping category of each sport category could be interesting. Try to see how far you can push the human body through doping, but keep it strictly separate from "ordinary" sport. Use whatever can be gleaned from it to advance medical research etc.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5949
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
cpd wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

All you have to do is look at the multitude of track and field records from the 80's which still haven't been broken, loads of dopers back then like Flo Jo, but we still allow the records to stand, records which will never be broken by a clean athlete. So there's incentive for all athletes today to use whatever advantage they can get.

Personally I think we should allow it, so many athletes have therapeutic exemptions for banned substances (I'm looking at you Serena Williams) they should just open it up to create a level playing field.


Opening it up is fine, so long as you are forced to use those substances. I won't touch the stuff - I've heard the stories and it's pretty bad. The stuff could kill you.

Sure, I love being very fit, but I also like that I've done it through hard work - not through using all this crap.


All that crap doesn’t mean you still don’t have to work hard, just taking drugs without the training won’t get results.


That crap is the stuff that will end up killing you, maybe while you are still young - or maybe when you are 50 years old, or perhaps you don't die from it, but end up with significantly limited ability to do the things you used to love doing and multiple trips in and out of hospital because your heart is so stuffed up from taking all that garbage.

VSMUT wrote:
A special doping category of each sport category could be interesting. Try to see how far you can push the human body through doping, but keep it strictly separate from "ordinary" sport. Use whatever can be gleaned from it to advance medical research etc.


I'm volunteering you to be the first to take part in it. Now, get ready while we dope you up with all sorts of stuff. It will be interesting to see what happens, yes. How long you survive without some major health problem. I'm sure interesting is the right term for that?
 
johns624
Posts: 2143
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:44 pm

cpd wrote:
I'm volunteering you to be the first to take part in it. Now, get ready while we dope you up with all sorts of stuff. It will be interesting to see what happens, yes. How long you survive without some major health problem. I'm sure interesting is the right term for that?
Nobody is forcing anybody to dope. Many athletes don't care about what happens in 20 years. They just want to be the best "right now".
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:38 pm

caliboy93 wrote:
How big is the doping issue in sports, and what actions can be taken to combat it more effectively? It's such a shame that it continues to happen.


I was a competitive cyclist in the late 70’s through the 1980’s. It became apparent from about 1985 to 1990 that something had shifted. I was in the greatest shape of my life. I was getting old enough to get dropped and maybe lose a few minutes on a multi day stage event, but kids in the next age category down were like they had new legs every day. Plus they were climbing hills like monsters. We’d look at their consistency from day to day and say WTF? These kids have a down day? It was no surprise to find that when the likes of Armstrong came along that doping was rampant. Still not sure the sport is clean. They find a test for one thing, someone invents another drug or a way to circumvent the systems. If you look at the average speed for the Tour de France, you can see the trend with an average speed spike in the early 1980’s that continued upward. You can also see how it’s come down a bit in recent years. It was steady with ups and downs related to the course, but it was almost flat from the mid 50’s in the 70’s.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:21 pm

cpd wrote:
I'm volunteering you to be the first to take part in it. Now, get ready while we dope you up with all sorts of stuff. It will be interesting to see what happens, yes. How long you survive without some major health problem. I'm sure interesting is the right term for that?


?

I never said anything about forcing anyone to do it. It would be entirely voluntary, for those so inclined. Obviously, many athletes already do so out of own will, so there must be a market for it.
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:10 am

In boxing, its rampant.

Mia St. John claims everyone does it...
 
seat64k
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:31 am

cpd wrote:
Sure, I love being very fit, but I also like that I've done it through hard work - not through using all this crap.


Kiwirob wrote:
All that crap doesn’t mean you still don’t have to work hard, just taking drugs without the training won’t get results.


cpd wrote:
That crap is the stuff that will end up killing you, maybe while you are still young - or maybe when you are 50 years old, or perhaps you don't die from it, but end up with significantly limited ability to do the things you used to love doing and multiple trips in and out of hospital because your heart is so stuffed up from taking all that garbage.


You're missing the point. Your original comment implies that taking drugs gets you the benefits without the work. It doesn't - in fact, it's quite the opposite. The drugs allow you to recover faster, which in turn means you can do more workouts with shorter rests in-between without running into overtraining issues. In other words, athletes on drugs are likely putting in more work than their natural counterparts.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5949
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:56 am

seat64k wrote:
cpd wrote:
Sure, I love being very fit, but I also like that I've done it through hard work - not through using all this crap.


Kiwirob wrote:
All that crap doesn’t mean you still don’t have to work hard, just taking drugs without the training won’t get results.


cpd wrote:
That crap is the stuff that will end up killing you, maybe while you are still young - or maybe when you are 50 years old, or perhaps you don't die from it, but end up with significantly limited ability to do the things you used to love doing and multiple trips in and out of hospital because your heart is so stuffed up from taking all that garbage.


You're missing the point. Your original comment implies that taking drugs gets you the benefits without the work. It doesn't - in fact, it's quite the opposite. The drugs allow you to recover faster, which in turn means you can do more workouts with shorter rests in-between without running into overtraining issues. In other words, athletes on drugs are likely putting in more work than their natural counterparts.


Why are you trying to tell me what I already know? I'm not stupid - I coach people, I know about recovery times, TSS, ATL, CTL and all that stuff. I just don't feel like giving any kind of support whatsoever to this rubbish. If you take that stuff, then you deserve all the harmful side-effects that these substances can cause.

So yes, when you are 45 years old, have fun going in and out of hospital with heart problems, not being able to do any kind of physical activity that would be no problem for a person of the same age and average health. That's what can happen to you if you take these substances.
 
seat64k
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:26 pm

Like I said, your original comment implies that taking drugs gets you the benefits without the work. Maybe your statement was just open to misinterpretation, but it's a very very common misconception. Either ways, good on you for staying clear of it. I'm not going anywhere near it myself.
 
meecrob
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:30 am

seat64k wrote:
Like I said, your original comment implies that taking drugs gets you the benefits without the work. Maybe your statement was just open to misinterpretation, but it's a very very common misconception. Either ways, good on you for staying clear of it. I'm not going anywhere near it myself.


This is in jest, and I emphasize it - but that could be translated into "Usually thiefs work harder than the honest person, they take methamphetamines so they can stay up all night stealing...Its hard work! Not that I do it myself..."

Back to seriousness: I think something also has to be said for the coaches involved. I have played many sports growing up and there were many coaches trying to live vicariously through their trainees? apprentices? players? Whatever the term for it is, I faced huge pressure in pre-adult competitive sports to win above all else...a hockey coach taught me how to spear someone in the ribs or calf "by accident" so the referees wouldn't notice, for example. Its kinda why I quit it all. I just wanted to see how I, and my team competed against a difficult opponent. I didn't want to cheat. I didn't want to be a dirty player. I wanted to use my skill and years of experience to be able to best my opponents. Its a sad day when brawns over brains win. I thought we were supposed to be intelligent as a species? Are we going to let gorrilas participate in the Olympics to balance out the dopers...only in a few sports like wrestling at first, but you can see what I'm getting at...


Edit: Cheetahs vs a doping Usain Bolt in his prime?
 
seat64k
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:57 pm

meecrob wrote:
This is in jest, and I emphasize it - but that could be translated into "Usually thiefs work harder than the honest person, they take methamphetamines so they can stay up all night stealing...Its hard work! Not that I do it myself..."


I can see that. It's not a bad comparison, except that a thief deprives someone of whatever they're stealing - it's a zero sum game. Ok, same thing in competitive sport, assuming everyone isn't doping. But I suspect everyone is, so it's a bit more difficult to weigh the results.

My comment was more about the misconception that taking drugs is like pressing the turbo button and stuff just happens. Couldn't be further from the truth. Right now there's a bunch of bros at my gym who are blowing their life savings on all sorts of "supplements". None of them are getting any bigger, because they're not training any different from before.

meecrob wrote:
Edit: Cheetahs vs a doping Usain Bolt in his prime?


A cheetah with a sprained ankle would probably still beat him. :)
 
Jalap
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:31 pm

meecrob wrote:
Its a sad day when brawns over brains win. I thought we were supposed to be intelligent as a species?

We are, unfortunately, not yet evolved to that point. Not in sports and even less in other aspects of life.

However, in sports there has been considerable progress. No matter how big a hero one is, if you're positive on doping you're done. Both in competition as in public perception.
In the pure performance sports, like cyclism or athletics, I think it no longer is possible (or sensible) to gain a significant advantage by cheating. Even if you're not caught today, you could still be stripped of your achievements years later when new tests are developed to discover that substance you've been using. This surely will make athletes very cautious if they were to decide on trying to cheat.

In more skill sports, like football, also progress is being made to weed out the cheaters. I think the VAR in football really helps to make the game more honest. Far from perfect today, but it is progress.
 
User avatar
Erebus
Posts: 987
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: Doping in sports

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:48 pm

VSMUT wrote:
A special doping category of each sport category could be interesting. Try to see how far you can push the human body through doping, but keep it strictly separate from "ordinary" sport. Use whatever can be gleaned from it to advance medical research etc.


I wondered about this as well. Maybe it can open up more research on human physiology and can become useful to others gradually, especially those with medical issues. Sort of like how high performance motor sports technology gradually finds its way to your everyday car.
 
Jalap
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Doping in sports

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:56 pm

Erebus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A special doping category of each sport category could be interesting. Try to see how far you can push the human body through doping, but keep it strictly separate from "ordinary" sport. Use whatever can be gleaned from it to advance medical research etc.


I wondered about this as well. Maybe it can open up more research on human physiology and can become useful to others gradually, especially those with medical issues. Sort of like how high performance motor sports technology gradually finds its way to your everyday car.

Then you’d probably still need a few categories.
- Doping that has no proven negative health effects (and of course you’ll have cheaters in this category, so that doesn’t help the main issue much)
- Open category doping (yet this may raise serious ethical issues)
- Mechanical doping (cyborgs for the win)

Thinking about the research I started wondering if this isn’t already happening in the military. I doubt doping in the military is illegal, so I would assume that there’s already a lot of research being done for performance enhancing medicines for military purpose?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, harrisair and 23 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos