MaverickM11
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:51 pm

slider wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Giving minorities the exact same treatments white evangelicals get. Better schools, better housing, better pay, fewer murders by cop, lower addiction rates.....


You don't "give" anyone anything unless they can receive it, be responsible, uphold their end of the bargain.

No reparations, the issue is ridiculous on its face and should be laughed out of conversation.

Once the black community decides to get off the proverbial political plantation and stop voting for a party that keeps them in metaphorical chains, maybe then they'll see change. I've said it before and it bears repeating--the prevailing black culture is broken: the family unit, the pop culture, fatherlessness, abortion rates, crime rates, the dependence on government that has kept them down, and so on. The political undercurrent has to change,

It's not all whitey's fault. This nonsense must stop.

Rich coming from a party whose leader is the emblem of absent father scattering bastard children around who are equally inept. Wonder what the difference is :roll:

slider wrote:
Democrats voted against every piece of civil rights legislation in Congress from 1866 to 1966.

Democrats opposed the 13th Amendment, freeing the slaves, with only 4 Democrats voting for it.

Democrats voted against the 14th Amendment, granting citizenship to former slaves.

They also voted against the 15th Amendment, giving slaves the right to vote. Not a SINGLE Democrat among 56 in Congress voted for it.

Thank you for waving your intellectual dishonesty flag loud and proud. You've made it crystal clear you have no ability to contribute to this conversation. Buh bye.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
seb146
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:45 pm

slider wrote:
seb146 wrote:
slider wrote:
And yet, in spite of all that, rural blacks in the US had higher literacy rates than rural whites from the Industrial Revolution on. The rise of black colleges, which were (and remain by and large) damn fine institutions gave rise to upward mobility as well. We all know how the Civil Rights battle went down, and yes, it wasn't perfect. But few countries OWN their past in the manner the US did. Affirmative action, DBE/CBE contracting and such have all helped close the gap as well. But the Great Society set them backwards, not forwards. Barriers have been broken. The rest is up to them. Break free.

I didn't own a slave, you didn't own a slave, no debt is owed. My sons were good but not great students. They couldn't get into a few of their preferred colleges due to admissions demographics. Why should they pay the price for that? Why does the left block school choice? Why does the left encourage children out of wedlock? Why does the left continue to create and foment the conditions that suppress minorities? They claim to be the party of the minority, yet every policy they enact keeps them on the virtual plantation--it's economic and social shackles today. The problem is nuanced, yes, and very deep but not complicated.


Why all the hate for the left? The left does not create conditions that suppress minorities. Please give examples. The left foes not encourage children out of wedlock. Please give examples. The left does not block school choice. Please give examples. The Great Society lowered the numbers of people in poverty. Including blacks. Your kids didn't get into the school they wanted? They should have worked harder. It is their fault, not the school's fault.

Minorities in general are doing better in states spending more on education and health care.


The left does not create conditions that suppress minorities?

Progressives have always opposed school choice! It’s absolutely a polarized partisan issue. I don’t know where you get that idea from. One of my favorites moments was from 2009, Obama and the Democrats killed a low-income DC program that would provide for private school tuition (even canceling hundreds of scholarships). Reintroduced in 2011, Obama opposed it. The Dems support Head Start, which has little appreciable benefit, conversely. But way beyond that, you have rent control, minimum wage laws, federal mortgage redlining and the CRA, school zoning, high degree of regulation in business, Davis-Bacon going back to 1931, the War on Drugs, Clinton’s Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, and, of course, the Great Society.

Black illegitimacy rates went from single digits to the high 70s, they’ve traditionally been under or unemployed at higher rates (sidenote: black unemployment currently is lowest ever recorded), yet the left is alienating one of their alleged-ironclad constituencies with their position on illegal immigration—embracing illegals over them. ALL Americans should feel the same way, but it stings African Americans harder.

Democrats voted against every piece of civil rights legislation in Congress from 1866 to 1966.

Democrats opposed the 13th Amendment, freeing the slaves, with only 4 Democrats voting for it.

Democrats voted against the 14th Amendment, granting citizenship to former slaves.

They also voted against the 15th Amendment, giving slaves the right to vote. Not a SINGLE Democrat among 56 in Congress voted for it.

Republicans passed all of the Civil Rights laws of the 1860s — including the Civil Rights Act of 1866and the Reconstruction Act of 1867 following the Civil War.

It was the Democrat Party that passed Jim Crow laws. It was the Democrat party that enacted and made sure of enforcement of Black Civil Codes that maintained segregationist policies. For EVERY single piece of Civil Rights legislation, there have always been more Democrat filibusters against it. Civil Rights Act of 1957, that was Ike, a Republican.

It was Republican appointees such as Earl Warren who wrote the Brown vs Board of Education decision; the Civil Rights Act of 1968, among provisions which banned housing discrimination, penned by Republicans. Nixon wrote the Philadelphia Plan that concocted affirmative action. Reagan signed MLK Day into law.

Conservatives, by definition, have traditionally been more individually focused; it’s that irony that’s driving tons of young blacks from the Democrat party, that treats them as a monolithic voting bloc. And nothing changes those perceptions than economic opportunity. With the lowest black unemployment recorded, it’s opportunity that will continue to dictate some of those trends. Make no mistake, it’s not perfect. And there are powerful cultural issues at play here too. But the left has never been a friend to minorities…they’ve exploited them.


You talk about Democrats before 1966 but what about since then? It was Johnson, a Democrat, who signed civil rights legislation into law. Kennedy, also a Democrat, who wanted the same thing. Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, believed health care is a universal right and safe work places and guaranteed retirement were rights as well. That is how we ended up with minimum wage, OSHA, and Social Security and Medicare. It was Republicans who decided we do not need fairness in voting and cancelled the Voting Rights Act just a few years ago. Republicans have been trying to close Social Security and Medicare for decades, and Republicans who think OSHA and minimum wage are an abomination. Let companies and the free market decide. You know what happens? Sweat shops and child labor.

Democrats are all for school choice, just not at taxpayer expense. If someone can afford to send their child/ren to private school, fine. Let them. It should not be on the taxpayer dime. You have been skipping over that part.

Then, you go on about illegals. We have laws and processes when it comes to illegals. Like not overstaying your visas and not hiring illegals. Both those things go on in every single state in the union. Every one. You can blame only Democrats if you want, but there are plenty of illegals working in Republican controlled states and plenty of illegals who overstay their visas there as well.

Blacks having babies? Because of like rape or forced into sex work? And not allowed to have access to birth control or the morning after pill because "every life is sacred" then you righties complain these babies are a drain on society. But we can not have any kind of birth control at all period.

Look at the states with higher minimum wages vs. states with low minimum wages. Guess where the exploited ones are? That's right: Republican controlled states with low minimum wages, no affordable health care, no affordable housing, no access to make their lives better. Without rent control, many Americans would be priced out of their home. Developers see these low income areas, buy these buildings for a song, renovate them, price out the residents, and make out like bandits. What happens? People end up on the streets. Living in cars or being shoved down the road to someplace else that complains about the homeless problem.
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GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3358
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:17 am

Social Security—anyone would be better off investing the 12.4% FICA tax in index funds AND have an asset to pass on. Right now, when you die at 61, you get zilch.

Medicare—horrible system that basically lives by paying less than cost of services and is cross-subsidized by the “young” on private insurance paying paying into a system they may or may not benefit from. Besides, how can something that requires someone else to pay for it be a “right”? It’s a scarce resource like any other—what’s next, right to a house, right of food, right of a car?

School vouchers give the poor and disadvantaged access to good schools. Of course, the “rich” can afford to 1, buy into a good school system; 2, afford to pay school taxes and tuition.

Overall, SEB, the Democrats are playing to their rich constituencies who don’t want their life styles upset and to have their collective guilt massaged by virtue signaling and moral exhibitionism.

GF
 
seb146
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:33 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Social Security—anyone would be better off investing the 12.4% FICA tax in index funds AND have an asset to pass on. Right now, when you die at 61, you get zilch.

Medicare—horrible system that basically lives by paying less than cost of services and is cross-subsidized by the “young” on private insurance paying paying into a system they may or may not benefit from. Besides, how can something that requires someone else to pay for it be a “right”? It’s a scarce resource like any other—what’s next, right to a house, right of food, right of a car?

School vouchers give the poor and disadvantaged access to good schools. Of course, the “rich” can afford to 1, buy into a good school system; 2, afford to pay school taxes and tuition.

Overall, SEB, the Democrats are playing to their rich constituencies who don’t want their life styles upset and to have their collective guilt massaged by virtue signaling and moral exhibitionism.

GF


You expect people who can not afford food, health care, and rent to just on their own take 12% of their pay and put it away? This is the problem with the current Republican tax scam. They gave us an extra $20 per check, didn't tell us about that, prices of everything went up because of the free market and we all paid for the corporations not paying taxes. Not only that, employee matched funds are based on the stock market. WHEN the market tanks because of Republican policies, those personal pensions will be worthless. Then what? Blame those who tried to plan for their future because that is the Republican way.

You say that we should not pay into Medicare but we should all pay into private education. If those private schools helped our future economy teaching STEM curricula. However, Republicans want evangelical schools to benefit.

If we all pay into Medicare and we all have access to Medicare, what is the problem? Younger people tend not to use health care because they feel they are invincible and don't need health care until it is too late or until later in life when health care is expensive.

I am still not seeing how the Democratic programs hold back minorities. In urban areas, private schools that focus on STEM encourage minorities.
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User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9324
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Social Security—anyone would be better off investing the 12.4% FICA tax in index funds AND have an asset to pass on. Right now, when you die at 61, you get zilch.

Medicare—horrible system that basically lives by paying less than cost of services and is cross-subsidized by the “young” on private insurance paying paying into a system they may or may not benefit from. Besides, how can something that requires someone else to pay for it be a “right”? It’s a scarce resource like any other—what’s next, right to a house, right of food, right of a car?

School vouchers give the poor and disadvantaged access to good schools. Of course, the “rich” can afford to 1, buy into a good school system; 2, afford to pay school taxes and tuition.

Overall, SEB, the Democrats are playing to their rich constituencies who don’t want their life styles upset and to have their collective guilt massaged by virtue signaling and moral exhibitionism.

GF


Next, this guy is going to tell us everything is working just fine. In 1965, the chief executive to worker pay ratio was 20:1, 1989 58:1, 2017 312:1. Obviously there's nothing to see here.

https://www.raconteur.net/business-inno ... e-pay-rise
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3358
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:30 pm

They are already putting 12.4% of their income into a “savings” program called FICA. There’s some disagreement in amount, but it’s clear employees pay most of the FICA amount in reduced pay or reduced investments in capital that would improve their productivity nd hence income.

In every 40 year period since 1900, markets have returned 8% meaning worrying about crashes is just a straw man. I looked at my FICA payments and invested since l started working, I’d have about 80% better income than SS is paying.

I don’t care where individuals put their school voucher money, just that parents have a choice and provide competition to the public monopoly.

GF
 
seb146
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:02 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They are already putting 12.4% of their income into a “savings” program called FICA. There’s some disagreement in amount, but it’s clear employees pay most of the FICA amount in reduced pay or reduced investments in capital that would improve their productivity nd hence income.

In every 40 year period since 1900, markets have returned 8% meaning worrying about crashes is just a straw man. I looked at my FICA payments and invested since l started working, I’d have about 80% better income than SS is paying.

I don’t care where individuals put their school voucher money, just that parents have a choice and provide competition to the public monopoly.

GF


Great. So when you retire or become permanently disabled, you should refuse Social Security. Do not take a dime. You know: out of protest. You obviously know better what to do with everyone else's money. There are plenty of people all across this country who will have only Social Security to live on after retirement age. They will have to keep working. Why don't they have a pension? Either because they needed the money from their pay immediately for frivolous things like rent and food and health care, or their union was forced to give up pensions in exchange for something or their pensions were raided, or they had a major financial issue and had to cash out their pension to cover. Usually health care is the reason.

That is great that you have a plan. I am also impressed that you can see into the future and know for a fact that you will be living with zero bumps in the road.

I agree that parents have the right to send their children to either public or private school. I do not want my tax dollars (that is what a school voucher is) to go toward schools who demand the Earth is only 6000 years old and that we humans were made from dirt by a cloud walker giving us mouth-to-mouth. Also, vouchers only pay for just so much.
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GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3358
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:55 pm

That I don’t agree with our present system doesn’t mean I can opt out—it’s required by law. Given the choice way back in the day I would have opted out. I had not expectation of a inheritance, my parents were middle class at best, but I did and do have a great confidence in betting on the American economy. That’s proved a great bet if the politicians remain checkmated by our Constitution.

What you’re suggesting is the disadvantaged should NOT get the advantages that the more advantages get—school choice, tax-deferred savings, etc. The poor are worse off by Social Security—they tend to live shorter lives limiting their Social Security payments; they are unable to save due to losing 12.4% of their income. Then, the government forces them to attend poorer schools with very low rates of graduation, reducing their potential incomes. All to protect the Democrats major sponsor—the NEA who are a monopoly supplier of teachers in every city system.

Freedom for me, but not for thee is battle cry by you.



Gf
 
seb146
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That I don’t agree with our present system doesn’t mean I can opt out—it’s required by law. Given the choice way back in the day I would have opted out. I had not expectation of a inheritance, my parents were middle class at best, but I did and do have a great confidence in betting on the American economy. That’s proved a great bet if the politicians remain checkmated by our Constitution.

What you’re suggesting is the disadvantaged should NOT get the advantages that the more advantages get—school choice, tax-deferred savings, etc. The poor are worse off by Social Security—they tend to live shorter lives limiting their Social Security payments; they are unable to save due to losing 12.4% of their income. Then, the government forces them to attend poorer schools with very low rates of graduation, reducing their potential incomes. All to protect the Democrats major sponsor—the NEA who are a monopoly supplier of teachers in every city system.

Freedom for me, but not for thee is battle cry by you.



Gf


What you are saying, in short, is black is white, up is down, left is right, day is night.

Children in rural areas have fewer advantages than those in urban areas. However, those children in urban areas can still be at a disadvantage because their parents can not afford private schools. Tuition assistance, sure. Uniforms, books, extracurricular activities. Besides, just because a voucher is given, how much does that cover? Let's ask the tough questions. If tuition for a quarter costs, say, $5000, a voucher covers how much? "The government" does not "force" people to attend poor schools with low education rates. Families can not afford to send their children to private school. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Go live for six months on $2000 a month raising a family of five in a city. Go on. You think you are a financial wizard. I want to see you actually doing this. Not just a spreadsheet.

Instead of blaming one union, maybe you should look deeper. NEA is in every school, so you say. That means West Beverly High to Compton. So, by your logic, West Beverly and Compton should be horrible. But, they are not. Why? Money goes to the union to pay off politicians just the same, right?

I am so confused......

The confusion continues because, apparently, it does not matter that Social Security is taken out becasue we working poor will not even see any of it because we will be dead. Or something. Which is not my experience. I see retirees who have to work part time and also collect Social Security. Even after decades of working in hospitals or schools. I guess what I see and the people I have been speaking to are not real. I should not believe what I experience.
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User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8497
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:47 am

This is a sticky issue and unfortunately, our polarized political environment makes this damn near impossible to tackle....

Maybe slightly off topic, but I see this issue as underlying and something that grinds any talk about race to a halt: we view racism as a black and white issue (not skin color, but as opposed to having shades of gray)

We tend to view people as either "racist" or "not racist." This is absolutely the wrong way to look at it. It would be silly to line people up from most racist to least racist and say everyone to the left of X is racist and everyone to the right of X isn't. Sounds ridiculous but that's what happens when there is no nuance and we have only 2 categories for a complex issue

It really breaks down communication because few people view themselves as "racist"... It's a continuum and they may have various stereotypes and prejudices. Calling them a racist will in essence, lump them in with all other racists, the person will view it as ridiculous and pretty much ignore any criticism. Their racism, admittedly slight as it may be, gets overlooked.

It puts me in a bad situation too. I am white, male, straight, etc, basically have all the "privilege" you can think of. I don't view myself as a racist person, but like EVERYONE (I believe it's biological), I will have racist thoughts and stereotypes to some degree. I find it more productive to acknowledge it so I can fight it. If I viewed it as a black and white issue, I could easily say that I'm "not racist" and fail to address the stereotypes I have and let them fester. I say the black and white nature puts me in a bad spot because here I'm anonymous so whatever, but in real life, I'd be VERY careful admitting ^ because I basically start the argument admitting I have some sort of innate racism (again, like I think every human being in the world has to some degree) but to a black and white person, it's easy to just write me off as racist. Sucks because I could just deny the obvious (of course I slip from time to time or have some built in misunderstanding) and say I'm not racist (100% not racist!) and avoid any social mobbing that you see today.

So yeah, if we actually have honest debates about race and are nuanced about it, THEN we will see changes, I would think. I challenge everyone to, instead of calling someone a racist flat out, to take the time to address the problematic arguments or beliefs directly. Maybe that is using "kid's gloves" but you won't be instantly tuned out. And also, if you think you are not a racist person, I challenge you to consider that yes, you probably aren't "a racist," but perhaps you have some beliefs or actions that are problematic. You can admit that to yourself and it won't make you a horrific person, no one is perfect. You can't fix a problem you don't think exists.

Sorry, definitely tl;dr, essentially, we need to have a more honest discussion on race in this country and stop considering people the extremes (simply "racist" or "not racist")
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3358
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That I don’t agree with our present system doesn’t mean I can opt out—it’s required by law. Given the choice way back in the day I would have opted out. I had not expectation of a inheritance, my parents were middle class at best, but I did and do have a great confidence in betting on the American economy. That’s proved a great bet if the politicians remain checkmated by our Constitution.

What you’re suggesting is the disadvantaged should NOT get the advantages that the more advantages get—school choice, tax-deferred savings, etc. The poor are worse off by Social Security—they tend to live shorter lives limiting their Social Security payments; they are unable to save due to losing 12.4% of their income. Then, the government forces them to attend poorer schools with very low rates of graduation, reducing their potential incomes. All to protect the Democrats major sponsor—the NEA who are a monopoly supplier of teachers in every city system.

Freedom for me, but not for thee is battle cry by you.



Gf


What you are saying, in short, is black is white, up is down, left is right, day is night.

Children in rural areas have fewer advantages than those in urban areas. However, those children in urban areas can still be at a disadvantage because their parents can not afford private schools. Tuition assistance, sure. Uniforms, books, extracurricular activities. Besides, just because a voucher is given, how much does that cover? Let's ask the tough questions. If tuition for a quarter costs, say, $5000, a voucher covers how much? "The government" does not "force" people to attend poor schools with low education rates. Families can not afford to send their children to private school. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Go live for six months on $2000 a month raising a family of five in a city. Go on. You think you are a financial wizard. I want to see you actually doing this. Not just a spreadsheet.

Instead of blaming one union, maybe you should look deeper. NEA is in every school, so you say. That means West Beverly High to Compton. So, by your logic, West Beverly and Compton should be horrible. But, they are not. Why? Money goes to the union to pay off politicians just the same, right?

I am so confused......

The confusion continues because, apparently, it does not matter that Social Security is taken out becasue we working poor will not even see any of it because we will be dead. Or something. Which is not my experience. I see retirees who have to work part time and also collect Social Security. Even after decades of working in hospitals or schools. I guess what I see and the people I have been speaking to are not real. I should not believe what I experience.


Easily confused by simple economics, life expectancies and your own collection of straw men, enough to need a 40 acres of grass.

GF
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:54 am

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That I don’t agree with our present system doesn’t mean I can opt out—it’s required by law. Given the choice way back in the day I would have opted out. I had not expectation of a inheritance, my parents were middle class at best, but I did and do have a great confidence in betting on the American economy. That’s proved a great bet if the politicians remain checkmated by our Constitution.

What you’re suggesting is the disadvantaged should NOT get the advantages that the more advantages get—school choice, tax-deferred savings, etc. The poor are worse off by Social Security—they tend to live shorter lives limiting their Social Security payments; they are unable to save due to losing 12.4% of their income. Then, the government forces them to attend poorer schools with very low rates of graduation, reducing their potential incomes. All to protect the Democrats major sponsor—the NEA who are a monopoly supplier of teachers in every city system.

Freedom for me, but not for thee is battle cry by you.



Gf


What you are saying, in short, is black is white, up is down, left is right, day is night.

Children in rural areas have fewer advantages than those in urban areas. However, those children in urban areas can still be at a disadvantage because their parents can not afford private schools. Tuition assistance, sure. Uniforms, books, extracurricular activities. Besides, just because a voucher is given, how much does that cover? Let's ask the tough questions. If tuition for a quarter costs, say, $5000, a voucher covers how much? "The government" does not "force" people to attend poor schools with low education rates. Families can not afford to send their children to private school. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Go live for six months on $2000 a month raising a family of five in a city. Go on. You think you are a financial wizard. I want to see you actually doing this. Not just a spreadsheet.

Instead of blaming one union, maybe you should look deeper. NEA is in every school, so you say. That means West Beverly High to Compton. So, by your logic, West Beverly and Compton should be horrible. But, they are not. Why? Money goes to the union to pay off politicians just the same, right?

I am so confused......

The confusion continues because, apparently, it does not matter that Social Security is taken out becasue we working poor will not even see any of it because we will be dead. Or something. Which is not my experience. I see retirees who have to work part time and also collect Social Security. Even after decades of working in hospitals or schools. I guess what I see and the people I have been speaking to are not real. I should not believe what I experience.


Maybe the problem is having a family of 5 on 2000 a month.. If you can't feed em don't breed em... Again personal responsibility but I know that doesn't apply to the liberal mind set.. Also don't get me started on the Ponzi scheme called Social Security. My father died at 64 never got to collect it. My mother collected for a short time before she died. There is no way even if I live a long life that I will ever get back what I put into this system. I wish I had a choice but was forced into this so I will take it at 62 even with the penalty. Provided I am still breathing at 62. Thanks FDR
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:55 pm

How do you even decide who gets it and who doesn't? What about those blacks who moved into the US after slavery was abolished? What about second generation Africans? What about those blacks who are from Ethiopia, a country that was never colonized by anybody and which was actually quite vicious towards its black neighbors? Why should states such as Oklahoma or Alaska participate when they didn't even exist when slavery was legal.

Reparations today make no sense. What we need to look at is why are Asian immigrants so successful despite living in the same system as black Americans.

Or maybe we should rather concentrate our efforts on eradicating modern day forms of slavery... just a thought.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9324
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:26 pm

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That I don’t agree with our present system doesn’t mean I can opt out—it’s required by law. Given the choice way back in the day I would have opted out. I had not expectation of a inheritance, my parents were middle class at best, but I did and do have a great confidence in betting on the American economy. That’s proved a great bet if the politicians remain checkmated by our Constitution.

What you’re suggesting is the disadvantaged should NOT get the advantages that the more advantages get—school choice, tax-deferred savings, etc. The poor are worse off by Social Security—they tend to live shorter lives limiting their Social Security payments; they are unable to save due to losing 12.4% of their income. Then, the government forces them to attend poorer schools with very low rates of graduation, reducing their potential incomes. All to protect the Democrats major sponsor—the NEA who are a monopoly supplier of teachers in every city system.

Freedom for me, but not for thee is battle cry by you.



Gf


What you are saying, in short, is black is white, up is down, left is right, day is night.

Children in rural areas have fewer advantages than those in urban areas. However, those children in urban areas can still be at a disadvantage because their parents can not afford private schools. Tuition assistance, sure. Uniforms, books, extracurricular activities. Besides, just because a voucher is given, how much does that cover? Let's ask the tough questions. If tuition for a quarter costs, say, $5000, a voucher covers how much? "The government" does not "force" people to attend poor schools with low education rates. Families can not afford to send their children to private school. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Go live for six months on $2000 a month raising a family of five in a city. Go on. You think you are a financial wizard. I want to see you actually doing this. Not just a spreadsheet.

Instead of blaming one union, maybe you should look deeper. NEA is in every school, so you say. That means West Beverly High to Compton. So, by your logic, West Beverly and Compton should be horrible. But, they are not. Why? Money goes to the union to pay off politicians just the same, right?

I am so confused......

The confusion continues because, apparently, it does not matter that Social Security is taken out becasue we working poor will not even see any of it because we will be dead. Or something. Which is not my experience. I see retirees who have to work part time and also collect Social Security. Even after decades of working in hospitals or schools. I guess what I see and the people I have been speaking to are not real. I should not believe what I experience.


Maybe the problem is having a family of 5 on 2000 a month.. If you can't feed em don't breed em... Again personal responsibility but I know that doesn't apply to the liberal mind set.. Also don't get me started on the Ponzi scheme called Social Security. My father died at 64 never got to collect it. My mother collected for a short time before she died. There is no way even if I live a long life that I will ever get back what I put into this system. I wish I had a choice but was forced into this so I will take it at 62 even with the penalty. Provided I am still breathing at 62. Thanks FDR


The planet is going to hell in a handbasket anyway - if we had any collective sense of responsibility, there would be a global 15-year moratorium on breeding, period.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DL717
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:52 pm

BN747 wrote:
A very complex issue.

Right now, Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, AMLO has publicly demanded an Official Apology from Spain and the Vatican.
Where this will go, I don't know...but it will not dies...it will only grow.

Here in America, the same.

But first, let me say that a few years ago, I felt that US Reparations should be two fold.

1.First an official apology must be extended by the United States for permitting the practice.

2.Exact a financial penalty on every state that participated in legal state sanctioned slavery.
That would include all of the original 13 first states.
- those that had the shortest period of Slavery, the penalty would be on the lower end of a sliding scale.
- the Southern States that carried on with the practice without making war on the US would pay a higher penalty.
- the Southern States that went to War to maintain the practice would pay the steepest penalty.
The Reparations Penalty Fund would be dispersed in payments to individual Black Families with lineage established from the 1600s (colonial period until 1954).
The Reparations Penalty Fund would also payoff the balance or pay 50% toward home-ownership to any Black household of Low Incomes that apply.

Now the problem with that - Economically, it would Financially devastate AL, AR, KY, KS, LA, MD, MO, MS, NC, SC,TN, VA, WV....Forever. They'd all become like Mississippi today - a complete mess. Other states would have carry their burden.

Today, I think some sort of resolution must happen one way or another but it will require a long period of concentrated townhalls, committees and studies to emerge with acceptable options. And bear in mind, whatever the settled upon agreement to address centuries of wrong doing...it's now going to open the door to address the damage and harm to Native Americans - which will be huge and justified.

The Nations involved in the Slave Trade, who clearly enriched their coffers, must also be apart of this process - actually, I'd have more faith in a European study of the issue vs an American one because here in the US, those people who hate or want to keep Confederate statues (politicians) will only muddy the process because they are trying there very best to abscond from any responsibility for their states role in Slavery. They will not prove to be honest brokers - proof of that has been demonstrated to us by how quickly they ceased on the Roberts Court ruling 'Voting Rights protections are no longer need'...every state under the Voting Rights protections ruling immediate dismantled what was in place - that is their current attitude on 'Righting Past Wrongs'.

But any paid Education solutions are moot...America needs a free Education for all citizens apart from reparations...a separate issue.

But they lasting damage occurring past the point of Emancipation is still here today - black police shootings, blacks treated horribly by housing authorities, banks, etc are extensive.
But somehow this must all be taken into consideration of any solution.

The South's easy answer is 'c'mon Black People, it was along time ago...let it go.' Rapists wish you'd forget what they just did too. But the victim never forgets and pain never fades.
So Texas all these states 'erasing America's Original sin from history books' will only made future solutions worse as America grows darker and less white. The longer the nation waits to deal with this, the worse it's going get. Time is not on side of those that strive to put it off and prolong it.

I for one, do not have an answer but I do plan read the thoughts of published pieces on the issue, I need to hear what brighter and more focused minds on issue.

But I'd like to see something Fair and Just in the end...it's just a steep, steep precipice...we are headed that way anyhow.

Where it will go, I currently have no idea.

BN747


Well there’s a solution. Start a war. Should go swimmingly. :roll:
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DL717
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Blerg wrote:
How do you even decide who gets it and who doesn't? What about those blacks who moved into the US after slavery was abolished? What about second generation Africans? What about those blacks who are from Ethiopia, a country that was never colonized by anybody and which was actually quite vicious towards its black neighbors? Why should states such as Oklahoma or Alaska participate when they didn't even exist when slavery was legal.

Reparations today make no sense. What we need to look at is why are Asian immigrants so successful despite living in the same system as black Americans.

Or maybe we should rather concentrate our efforts on eradicating modern day forms of slavery... just a thought.


Apparently they have a DNA database of the decedents of slave owners so that the right people pay while the rest of us our off the hook. :roll:
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speedbird52
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:00 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
slider wrote:

You don't "give" anyone anything unless they can receive it, be responsible, uphold their end of the bargain.

No reparations, the issue is ridiculous on its face and should be laughed out of conversation.

Once the black community decides to get off the proverbial political plantation and stop voting for a party that keeps them in metaphorical chains, maybe then they'll see change. I've said it before and it bears repeating--the prevailing black culture is broken: the family unit, the pop culture, fatherlessness, abortion rates, crime rates, the dependence on government that has kept them down, and so on. The political undercurrent has to change,

It's not all whitey's fault. This nonsense must stop.


Let's talk about this. For many decades, wealthy white men were in charge. Very few black men could get ahead. After the Civil War, blacks were still given less and less and told they had to work for it. That they were being given every opportunity, even though they were starting beyond the back of the pack. Even in the 20th Century, they were given separate but "equal" treatment, told they could only eat at certain tables, ride in certain parts of the bus, live in certain neighborhoods, hold certain jobs, go to certain schools. Even when they worked for equality.

Historically, it is whitey's fault. Because of equal rights legislation, that is individuals being forced to treat blacks as equals, they are finally getting opportunities. It is still a slow march. And still, they start far behind. They don't have billions of dollars being handed to them from their parents. They still have to work their behinds off harder, in some cases, than whites. Still. In the 21st Century.


First I think we can pretty much say that reparations are not going to happen it is a pipe dream the Democratic candidates are pimping to the black community to get their vote it is obvious. Second there is really no reason a person of color cannot make it today. They are still given preferences in colleges and most large businesses in hiring. My employer goes above and beyond to hire African Americans a lot are even promoted to Senior management positions whether qualified or not. I will say this again personal responsibility has to count for something. Having multiple kids by multiple fathers will not help you advance in your life goals. Me and my brother both white as the driven snow raised exactly the same I have been gainfully employed all my life I have a college degree and a great job and never in trouble with the law. My brother is a long time heroin addict with a long rap sheet and that is totally on him. It was his personal choice and he is jealous of me thinking that everything I have was just given to me. A common misconception from people who never worked for anything in their life. I know plenty of successful African Americans it is there you just have to want it. This constant push by liberals to convince the blacks that they are still disenfranchised by the white man and that they are somehow owed something will continue to prevent any healing between the races.

I have been privileged enough to live in financial stability but many of my family do not. We are Pakistani, and visibly Muslim. I have countless stories of family members struggling to rise up the social ladder because of their race: Whether it is my aunt in retail working for longer, and for more hours than her coworkers, yet still taking longer to get a promotion, to the white collar world of construction where my families company routinely gets scrutinized for a quality of work superior to the quality of a White owned company that never seemed to get in any sort of issues. It is also a fact that Black people are significantly less likely to be called in for interviews should they apply for a job.
 
speedbird52
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:04 am

Blerg wrote:
Reparations today make no sense. What we need to look at is why are Asian immigrants so successful despite living in the same system as black Americans.

.

Because the government gave preference to highly skilled immigrants, and launched a propaganda campaign to suck up to Asian populations to counteract Soviet Propaganda about how racist America had historically been towards Asians?
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:27 am

speedbird52 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Reparations today make no sense. What we need to look at is why are Asian immigrants so successful despite living in the same system as black Americans.

.

Because the government gave preference to highly skilled immigrants, and launched a propaganda campaign to suck up to Asian populations to counteract Soviet Propaganda about how racist America had historically been towards Asians?


Still, that doesn't change the fact Asian immigrants managed to be far more successful than some other ones. I think it's a cultural thing and that's something the US government can't change meaning this whole attempt is futile.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:06 am

speedbird52 wrote:
Because the government gave preference to highly skilled immigrants, and launched a propaganda campaign to suck up to Asian populations to counteract Soviet Propaganda about how racist America had historically been towards Asians?

This must be the most successful US conspiracy given the global success of the far eastern Asian (Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Chinese) immigrants compared to Africans and other Asians.
 
slider
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:45 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Let's talk about this. For many decades, wealthy white men were in charge. Very few black men could get ahead. After the Civil War, blacks were still given less and less and told they had to work for it. That they were being given every opportunity, even though they were starting beyond the back of the pack. Even in the 20th Century, they were given separate but "equal" treatment, told they could only eat at certain tables, ride in certain parts of the bus, live in certain neighborhoods, hold certain jobs, go to certain schools. Even when they worked for equality.

Historically, it is whitey's fault. Because of equal rights legislation, that is individuals being forced to treat blacks as equals, they are finally getting opportunities. It is still a slow march. And still, they start far behind. They don't have billions of dollars being handed to them from their parents. They still have to work their behinds off harder, in some cases, than whites. Still. In the 21st Century.


First I think we can pretty much say that reparations are not going to happen it is a pipe dream the Democratic candidates are pimping to the black community to get their vote it is obvious. Second there is really no reason a person of color cannot make it today. They are still given preferences in colleges and most large businesses in hiring. My employer goes above and beyond to hire African Americans a lot are even promoted to Senior management positions whether qualified or not. I will say this again personal responsibility has to count for something. Having multiple kids by multiple fathers will not help you advance in your life goals. Me and my brother both white as the driven snow raised exactly the same I have been gainfully employed all my life I have a college degree and a great job and never in trouble with the law. My brother is a long time heroin addict with a long rap sheet and that is totally on him. It was his personal choice and he is jealous of me thinking that everything I have was just given to me. A common misconception from people who never worked for anything in their life. I know plenty of successful African Americans it is there you just have to want it. This constant push by liberals to convince the blacks that they are still disenfranchised by the white man and that they are somehow owed something will continue to prevent any healing between the races.

I have been privileged enough to live in financial stability but many of my family do not. We are Pakistani, and visibly Muslim. I have countless stories of family members struggling to rise up the social ladder because of their race: Whether it is my aunt in retail working for longer, and for more hours than her coworkers, yet still taking longer to get a promotion, to the white collar world of construction where my families company routinely gets scrutinized for a quality of work superior to the quality of a White owned company that never seemed to get in any sort of issues. It is also a fact that Black people are significantly less likely to be called in for interviews should they apply for a job.


Can you substantiate your last point? How can you prove something that doesn't happen?
 
stratosphere
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:12 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Let's talk about this. For many decades, wealthy white men were in charge. Very few black men could get ahead. After the Civil War, blacks were still given less and less and told they had to work for it. That they were being given every opportunity, even though they were starting beyond the back of the pack. Even in the 20th Century, they were given separate but "equal" treatment, told they could only eat at certain tables, ride in certain parts of the bus, live in certain neighborhoods, hold certain jobs, go to certain schools. Even when they worked for equality.

Historically, it is whitey's fault. Because of equal rights legislation, that is individuals being forced to treat blacks as equals, they are finally getting opportunities. It is still a slow march. And still, they start far behind. They don't have billions of dollars being handed to them from their parents. They still have to work their behinds off harder, in some cases, than whites. Still. In the 21st Century.


First I think we can pretty much say that reparations are not going to happen it is a pipe dream the Democratic candidates are pimping to the black community to get their vote it is obvious. Second there is really no reason a person of color cannot make it today. They are still given preferences in colleges and most large businesses in hiring. My employer goes above and beyond to hire African Americans a lot are even promoted to Senior management positions whether qualified or not. I will say this again personal responsibility has to count for something. Having multiple kids by multiple fathers will not help you advance in your life goals. Me and my brother both white as the driven snow raised exactly the same I have been gainfully employed all my life I have a college degree and a great job and never in trouble with the law. My brother is a long time heroin addict with a long rap sheet and that is totally on him. It was his personal choice and he is jealous of me thinking that everything I have was just given to me. A common misconception from people who never worked for anything in their life. I know plenty of successful African Americans it is there you just have to want it. This constant push by liberals to convince the blacks that they are still disenfranchised by the white man and that they are somehow owed something will continue to prevent any healing between the races.

I have been privileged enough to live in financial stability but many of my family do not. We are Pakistani, and visibly Muslim. I have countless stories of family members struggling to rise up the social ladder because of their race: Whether it is my aunt in retail working for longer, and for more hours than her coworkers, yet still taking longer to get a promotion, to the white collar world of construction where my families company routinely gets scrutinized for a quality of work superior to the quality of a White owned company that never seemed to get in any sort of issues. It is also a fact that Black people are significantly less likely to be called in for interviews should they apply for a job.



I too want you to expand on your last sentence. Blacks are more likely to receive an interview and get a job at my employer without a doubt provided they're qualified.
 
seb146
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:11 pm

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That I don’t agree with our present system doesn’t mean I can opt out—it’s required by law. Given the choice way back in the day I would have opted out. I had not expectation of a inheritance, my parents were middle class at best, but I did and do have a great confidence in betting on the American economy. That’s proved a great bet if the politicians remain checkmated by our Constitution.

What you’re suggesting is the disadvantaged should NOT get the advantages that the more advantages get—school choice, tax-deferred savings, etc. The poor are worse off by Social Security—they tend to live shorter lives limiting their Social Security payments; they are unable to save due to losing 12.4% of their income. Then, the government forces them to attend poorer schools with very low rates of graduation, reducing their potential incomes. All to protect the Democrats major sponsor—the NEA who are a monopoly supplier of teachers in every city system.

Freedom for me, but not for thee is battle cry by you.



Gf


What you are saying, in short, is black is white, up is down, left is right, day is night.

Children in rural areas have fewer advantages than those in urban areas. However, those children in urban areas can still be at a disadvantage because their parents can not afford private schools. Tuition assistance, sure. Uniforms, books, extracurricular activities. Besides, just because a voucher is given, how much does that cover? Let's ask the tough questions. If tuition for a quarter costs, say, $5000, a voucher covers how much? "The government" does not "force" people to attend poor schools with low education rates. Families can not afford to send their children to private school. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Go live for six months on $2000 a month raising a family of five in a city. Go on. You think you are a financial wizard. I want to see you actually doing this. Not just a spreadsheet.

Instead of blaming one union, maybe you should look deeper. NEA is in every school, so you say. That means West Beverly High to Compton. So, by your logic, West Beverly and Compton should be horrible. But, they are not. Why? Money goes to the union to pay off politicians just the same, right?

I am so confused......

The confusion continues because, apparently, it does not matter that Social Security is taken out becasue we working poor will not even see any of it because we will be dead. Or something. Which is not my experience. I see retirees who have to work part time and also collect Social Security. Even after decades of working in hospitals or schools. I guess what I see and the people I have been speaking to are not real. I should not believe what I experience.


Maybe the problem is having a family of 5 on 2000 a month.. If you can't feed em don't breed em... Again personal responsibility but I know that doesn't apply to the liberal mind set.. Also don't get me started on the Ponzi scheme called Social Security. My father died at 64 never got to collect it. My mother collected for a short time before she died. There is no way even if I live a long life that I will ever get back what I put into this system. I wish I had a choice but was forced into this so I will take it at 62 even with the penalty. Provided I am still breathing at 62. Thanks FDR


And here is the problem: Republicans demand everyone be responsible but refuse to help people be responsible. Women want access to birth control pills for a number of reasons. One being they can not afford to raise a child. But, Republicans say that is against their "religion" and "religious exemption" means we can not fund birth control pills. And these women who never wanted a baby in the first place are forced to raise these children while being told "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" by the same people who took away their alternative for being responsible.

Thanks Republicans.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:27 pm

Blerg wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Reparations today make no sense. What we need to look at is why are Asian immigrants so successful despite living in the same system as black Americans.

.

Because the government gave preference to highly skilled immigrants, and launched a propaganda campaign to suck up to Asian populations to counteract Soviet Propaganda about how racist America had historically been towards Asians?


Still, that doesn't change the fact Asian immigrants managed to be far more successful than some other ones. I think it's a cultural thing and that's something the US government can't change meaning this whole attempt is futile.

You think "it's a cultural thing" that immigrants, who choose to migrate and have the ability to do so, fare better than those who were stolen from their homelands, made to work for free for centuries, and prohibited from accumulating any wealth, education, family bonds, or power? African immigrants do just fine.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:30 pm

seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:

What you are saying, in short, is black is white, up is down, left is right, day is night.

Children in rural areas have fewer advantages than those in urban areas. However, those children in urban areas can still be at a disadvantage because their parents can not afford private schools. Tuition assistance, sure. Uniforms, books, extracurricular activities. Besides, just because a voucher is given, how much does that cover? Let's ask the tough questions. If tuition for a quarter costs, say, $5000, a voucher covers how much? "The government" does not "force" people to attend poor schools with low education rates. Families can not afford to send their children to private school. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

Go live for six months on $2000 a month raising a family of five in a city. Go on. You think you are a financial wizard. I want to see you actually doing this. Not just a spreadsheet.

Instead of blaming one union, maybe you should look deeper. NEA is in every school, so you say. That means West Beverly High to Compton. So, by your logic, West Beverly and Compton should be horrible. But, they are not. Why? Money goes to the union to pay off politicians just the same, right?

I am so confused......

The confusion continues because, apparently, it does not matter that Social Security is taken out becasue we working poor will not even see any of it because we will be dead. Or something. Which is not my experience. I see retirees who have to work part time and also collect Social Security. Even after decades of working in hospitals or schools. I guess what I see and the people I have been speaking to are not real. I should not believe what I experience.


Maybe the problem is having a family of 5 on 2000 a month.. If you can't feed em don't breed em... Again personal responsibility but I know that doesn't apply to the liberal mind set.. Also don't get me started on the Ponzi scheme called Social Security. My father died at 64 never got to collect it. My mother collected for a short time before she died. There is no way even if I live a long life that I will ever get back what I put into this system. I wish I had a choice but was forced into this so I will take it at 62 even with the penalty. Provided I am still breathing at 62. Thanks FDR


And here is the problem: Republicans demand everyone be responsible but refuse to help people be responsible. Women want access to birth control pills for a number of reasons. One being they can not afford to raise a child. But, Republicans say that is against their "religion" and "religious exemption" means we can not fund birth control pills. And these women who never wanted a baby in the first place are forced to raise these children while being told "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" by the same people who took away their alternative for being responsible.

Thanks Republicans.


Umm can't afford a rubber? Certainly less expensive than having a kid. The government funding birth control ? While I personally would support it again it is personal responsibility it's not the taxpayers problem to fund a persons personal sex life and birth control. You can't afford to buy cheap birth control methods like a condom and don't want kids then don't partake.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:40 pm

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Maybe the problem is having a family of 5 on 2000 a month.. If you can't feed em don't breed em... Again personal responsibility but I know that doesn't apply to the liberal mind set.. Also don't get me started on the Ponzi scheme called Social Security. My father died at 64 never got to collect it. My mother collected for a short time before she died. There is no way even if I live a long life that I will ever get back what I put into this system. I wish I had a choice but was forced into this so I will take it at 62 even with the penalty. Provided I am still breathing at 62. Thanks FDR


And here is the problem: Republicans demand everyone be responsible but refuse to help people be responsible. Women want access to birth control pills for a number of reasons. One being they can not afford to raise a child. But, Republicans say that is against their "religion" and "religious exemption" means we can not fund birth control pills. And these women who never wanted a baby in the first place are forced to raise these children while being told "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" by the same people who took away their alternative for being responsible.

Thanks Republicans.


Umm can't afford a rubber? Certainly less expensive than having a kid. The government funding birth control ? While I personally would support it again it is personal responsibility it's not the taxpayers problem to fund a persons personal sex life and birth control. You can't afford to buy cheap birth control methods like a condom and don't want kids then don't partake.

As zillions of republican mistresses and Bristol Palin can attest, this is a pipe dream. Funding cheap/free birth control would have one of the easiest, cheapest, highest return on investments the government could make.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:43 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Because the government gave preference to highly skilled immigrants, and launched a propaganda campaign to suck up to Asian populations to counteract Soviet Propaganda about how racist America had historically been towards Asians?


Still, that doesn't change the fact Asian immigrants managed to be far more successful than some other ones. I think it's a cultural thing and that's something the US government can't change meaning this whole attempt is futile.

You think "it's a cultural thing" that immigrants, who choose to migrate and have the ability to do so, fare better than those who were stolen from their homelands, made to work for free for centuries, and prohibited from accumulating any wealth, education, family bonds, or power? African immigrants do just fine.


African immigrants do just fine? Prove it? That continent has been a disaster and continues to be one no matter how much money we throw it at and the ones who come here most often are under some form of government assistance. When I lived in Minnesota I seen it with the Somalis big time. Asians who come here seem to thrive why is that? One reason is they put a big emphasis on education and family unit and cohesion. I had a little Chinese place down the road from the last town I lived in the woman working there would bring in her kids and they actually took orders and worked the register these were little tykes maybe 5 or 6 years old. They could take the most complicated order and never ever get it wrong. I go down the the McDonalds on the other hand run by all black employees and order a simple burger and fries and they can't even get that right. Here is my message to the black community stop playing the victim stop having kids you cannot afford to support and that goes for all races and creeds and stop criticizing the kids who want to learn and succeed and telling them they are acting "white" I swear they are their own worst enemy
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9324
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:24 am

stratosphere wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Still, that doesn't change the fact Asian immigrants managed to be far more successful than some other ones. I think it's a cultural thing and that's something the US government can't change meaning this whole attempt is futile.

You think "it's a cultural thing" that immigrants, who choose to migrate and have the ability to do so, fare better than those who were stolen from their homelands, made to work for free for centuries, and prohibited from accumulating any wealth, education, family bonds, or power? African immigrants do just fine.

African immigrants do just fine? Prove it? That continent has been a disaster and continues to be one no matter how much money we throw it at and the ones who come here most often are under some form of government assistance. When I lived in Minnesota I seen it with the Somalis big time. Asians who come here seem to thrive why is that? One reason is they put a big emphasis on education and family unit and cohesion. I had a little Chinese place down the road from the last town I lived in the woman working there would bring in her kids and they actually took orders and worked the register these were little tykes maybe 5 or 6 years old. They could take the most complicated order and never ever get it wrong. I go down the the McDonalds on the other hand run by all black employees and order a simple burger and fries and they can't even get that right. Here is my message to the black community stop playing the victim stop having kids you cannot afford to support and that goes for all races and creeds and stop criticizing the kids who want to learn and succeed and telling them they are acting "white" I swear they are their own worst enemy


Guess you have not met enough Africans to differentiate - the continent literally has thousands of cultures. Eritreans are not Somalis are not Kenyans are not Bantus are not Tswana and so on. Some emphasize family and education, while others don’t. Just like before living in Japan I thought everyone was hard-working and well educated, the reality was different with many lazy sods who were basically worthless.

Again if you’re just gonna sit around and criticize, better to help campaign for a 15-year moratorium on breeding. We’re at 7.4 billion and that’s already almost double the sustainable level for our species.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:38 am

stratosphere wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Still, that doesn't change the fact Asian immigrants managed to be far more successful than some other ones. I think it's a cultural thing and that's something the US government can't change meaning this whole attempt is futile.

You think "it's a cultural thing" that immigrants, who choose to migrate and have the ability to do so, fare better than those who were stolen from their homelands, made to work for free for centuries, and prohibited from accumulating any wealth, education, family bonds, or power? African immigrants do just fine.


African immigrants do just fine? Prove it?

Subsaharan immigrants are more likely to have some college education than native born Americans, and countries like Nigeria, Morocco, Egypt, and Ghana send immigrants that have median incomes that are roughly equivalent to that of the average white American.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
seb146
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:43 am

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Maybe the problem is having a family of 5 on 2000 a month.. If you can't feed em don't breed em... Again personal responsibility but I know that doesn't apply to the liberal mind set.. Also don't get me started on the Ponzi scheme called Social Security. My father died at 64 never got to collect it. My mother collected for a short time before she died. There is no way even if I live a long life that I will ever get back what I put into this system. I wish I had a choice but was forced into this so I will take it at 62 even with the penalty. Provided I am still breathing at 62. Thanks FDR


And here is the problem: Republicans demand everyone be responsible but refuse to help people be responsible. Women want access to birth control pills for a number of reasons. One being they can not afford to raise a child. But, Republicans say that is against their "religion" and "religious exemption" means we can not fund birth control pills. And these women who never wanted a baby in the first place are forced to raise these children while being told "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" by the same people who took away their alternative for being responsible.

Thanks Republicans.


Umm can't afford a rubber? Certainly less expensive than having a kid. The government funding birth control ? While I personally would support it again it is personal responsibility it's not the taxpayers problem to fund a persons personal sex life and birth control. You can't afford to buy cheap birth control methods like a condom and don't want kids then don't partake.


So only the man has responsibility? It has been a while, but I don't think that is how hetero sex works. Correct me if I am wrong because, as I said, it has been a while since I had to play straight.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:14 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Because the government gave preference to highly skilled immigrants, and launched a propaganda campaign to suck up to Asian populations to counteract Soviet Propaganda about how racist America had historically been towards Asians?


Still, that doesn't change the fact Asian immigrants managed to be far more successful than some other ones. I think it's a cultural thing and that's something the US government can't change meaning this whole attempt is futile.

You think "it's a cultural thing" that immigrants, who choose to migrate and have the ability to do so, fare better than those who were stolen from their homelands, made to work for free for centuries, and prohibited from accumulating any wealth, education, family bonds, or power? African immigrants do just fine.


First thing first, they were not stolen, they were sold by their compatriots, fellow blacks who profited massively from the slave trade. So why should whites be the only ones to be blamed for something blacks did as well? Personally I think it's much worse what the blacks did than the whites.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17390
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:43 pm

Blerg wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Still, that doesn't change the fact Asian immigrants managed to be far more successful than some other ones. I think it's a cultural thing and that's something the US government can't change meaning this whole attempt is futile.

You think "it's a cultural thing" that immigrants, who choose to migrate and have the ability to do so, fare better than those who were stolen from their homelands, made to work for free for centuries, and prohibited from accumulating any wealth, education, family bonds, or power? African immigrants do just fine.


First thing first, they were not stolen, they were sold by their compatriots, fellow blacks who profited massively from the slave trade. So why should whites be the only ones to be blamed for something blacks did as well? Personally I think it's much worse what the blacks did than the whites.

I see you running away with your own goal posts but ok....in what way is selling a slave once worse than buying that slave and extracting a lifetime of labor out of them?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:12 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
You think "it's a cultural thing" that immigrants, who choose to migrate and have the ability to do so, fare better than those who were stolen from their homelands, made to work for free for centuries, and prohibited from accumulating any wealth, education, family bonds, or power? African immigrants do just fine.


First thing first, they were not stolen, they were sold by their compatriots, fellow blacks who profited massively from the slave trade. So why should whites be the only ones to be blamed for something blacks did as well? Personally I think it's much worse what the blacks did than the whites.

I see you running away with your own goal posts but ok....in what way is selling a slave once worse than buying that slave and extracting a lifetime of labor out of them?


I am not running away, I am just pointing out the one-sidednes of your argument. It's worse because if those blacks didn't sell them in the first place, those evil whites couldn't spend an entire lifetime extracting labour out of them. You can't attack the buyers without condemning the sellers since both profited. Not to mention that later on in the 19th century blacks were quite opposed to the abolition of the slave trade.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:12 pm

Blerg wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

First thing first, they were not stolen, they were sold by their compatriots, fellow blacks who profited massively from the slave trade. So why should whites be the only ones to be blamed for something blacks did as well? Personally I think it's much worse what the blacks did than the whites.

I see you running away with your own goal posts but ok....in what way is selling a slave once worse than buying that slave and extracting a lifetime of labor out of them?


I am not running away, I am just pointing out the one-sidednes of your argument. It's worse because if those blacks didn't sell them in the first place, those evil whites couldn't spend an entire lifetime extracting labour out of them. You can't attack the buyers without condemning the sellers since both profited. Not to mention that later on in the 19th century blacks were quite opposed to the abolition of the slave trade.

A one off transaction is worse than a lifetime of slavery *and* your entire progeny enslaved for their lifetimes as well? By what metric?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm

Blerg wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

First thing first, they were not stolen, they were sold by their compatriots, fellow blacks who profited massively from the slave trade. So why should whites be the only ones to be blamed for something blacks did as well? Personally I think it's much worse what the blacks did than the whites.

I see you running away with your own goal posts but ok....in what way is selling a slave once worse than buying that slave and extracting a lifetime of labor out of them?


I am not running away, I am just pointing out the one-sidednes of your argument. It's worse because if those blacks didn't sell them in the first place, those evil whites couldn't spend an entire lifetime extracting labour out of them. You can't attack the buyers without condemning the sellers since both profited. Not to mention that later on in the 19th century blacks were quite opposed to the abolition of the slave trade.


That’s a pretty ignorant and very wrong take on the truth on every possible level- the same Europeans you speak of- they colonized the entire continent....via the gun.

The Africans where BOTH - enticed to sell their compatriots (just the British seduced & threatened China. And they employed the ‘either we take your villagers or you snatch your country men for us- they were coerced into it by force.
Your take attempts to paint a picture of Africans happily rounding up ‘others’ because they were thrilled to pitch in and hel slavery expand. How nuts is that belief?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:06 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
I see you running away with your own goal posts but ok....in what way is selling a slave once worse than buying that slave and extracting a lifetime of labor out of them?


I am not running away, I am just pointing out the one-sidednes of your argument. It's worse because if those blacks didn't sell them in the first place, those evil whites couldn't spend an entire lifetime extracting labour out of them. You can't attack the buyers without condemning the sellers since both profited. Not to mention that later on in the 19th century blacks were quite opposed to the abolition of the slave trade.

A one off transaction is worse than a lifetime of slavery *and* your entire progeny enslaved for their lifetimes as well? By what metric?


You do realize that's the first step in the process, right? That's how it begins and how it all started. Without it fewer people would have been turned into slaves and that's why it's much worse. Don't forget that when white British tried to put an end to slave trade in Africa, Arabs and local blacks were so vehemently opposed that the British navy had to threaten with the bombardment of Zanzibar. Even after whites stopped trading slaves, Arabs and blacks kept on doing it. If you are looking to blame someone for slavery then it certainly isn't the whites.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:11 am

BN747 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
I see you running away with your own goal posts but ok....in what way is selling a slave once worse than buying that slave and extracting a lifetime of labor out of them?


I am not running away, I am just pointing out the one-sidednes of your argument. It's worse because if those blacks didn't sell them in the first place, those evil whites couldn't spend an entire lifetime extracting labour out of them. You can't attack the buyers without condemning the sellers since both profited. Not to mention that later on in the 19th century blacks were quite opposed to the abolition of the slave trade.


That’s a pretty ignorant and very wrong take on the truth on every possible level- the same Europeans you speak of- they colonized the entire continent....via the gun.

The Africans where BOTH - enticed to sell their compatriots (just the British seduced & threatened China. And they employed the ‘either we take your villagers or you snatch your country men for us- they were coerced into it by force.
Your take attempts to paint a picture of Africans happily rounding up ‘others’ because they were thrilled to pitch in and hel slavery expand. How nuts is that belief?

BN747


European colonization of Africa started in the second half of 19th century and by that time the slave trade was almost completely over. At least the transatlantic slave trade was, as mentioned in the other post, slave trade to the east was still very much alive but that wasn't run by white Europeans but by blacks and Arabs.

And no, whites didn't threaten locals with conquest at the time of the transatlantic slave trade. They offered large sums of money to local tribe chiefs who didn't care about selling people from a neighbouring tribe for a profit. So no, they were not coerced into it by force, they did it willingly and later on in the 19th century they opposed the suspension of the slave trade. The only thing they were forced to do was to put an end to this practice. That's a fact.
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:50 am

Blerg wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I am not running away, I am just pointing out the one-sidednes of your argument. It's worse because if those blacks didn't sell them in the first place, those evil whites couldn't spend an entire lifetime extracting labour out of them. You can't attack the buyers without condemning the sellers since both profited. Not to mention that later on in the 19th century blacks were quite opposed to the abolition of the slave trade.


That’s a pretty ignorant and very wrong take on the truth on every possible level- the same Europeans you speak of- they colonized the entire continent....via the gun.

The Africans where BOTH - enticed to sell their compatriots (just the British seduced & threatened China. And they employed the ‘either we take your villagers or you snatch your country men for us- they were coerced into it by force.
Your take attempts to paint a picture of Africans happily rounding up ‘others’ because they were thrilled to pitch in and hel slavery expand. How nuts is that belief?

BN747


European colonization of Africa started in the second half of 19th century and by that time the slave trade was almost completely over. At least the transatlantic slave trade was, as mentioned in the other post, slave trade to the east was still very much alive but that wasn't run by white Europeans but by blacks and Arabs.

And no, whites didn't threaten locals with conquest at the time of the transatlantic slave trade. They offered large sums of money to local tribe chiefs who didn't care about selling people from a neighbouring tribe for a profit. So no, they were not coerced into it by force, they did it willingly and later on in the 19th century they opposed the suspension of the slave trade. The only thing they were forced to do was to put an end to this practice. That's a fact.


Dude, whites, Portugues, Dutch, etc slave traders was nothing like trading furs and spices, it was a practice with zero rules. The rules were whatever you decided they should be - and use of guns were very much apart of that he SOP to get what you wanted. This notion you have of it being done peaceful negotiation of sorts exist only in your brain. And the brutally employed by the slavers was simply setting the stage for the total rape of the continent - mid 19th century, the only thing you got right.

I suggest you go visit PBS’s lengthy Slavery:The Making of America or tune into an Inconvenient Truth:Slavery in Brazil (YouTube) for starters, but this rose colored nonsense you’re trying to sell leaves you as the only buyer. I can recommend more (plus books is f needed) if you feel to need to expand on your knowledge of what went on or remain stuck in that fantasy orbit of yours where everything was done in bliss.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:17 am

BN747 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
BN747 wrote:

That’s a pretty ignorant and very wrong take on the truth on every possible level- the same Europeans you speak of- they colonized the entire continent....via the gun.

The Africans where BOTH - enticed to sell their compatriots (just the British seduced & threatened China. And they employed the ‘either we take your villagers or you snatch your country men for us- they were coerced into it by force.
Your take attempts to paint a picture of Africans happily rounding up ‘others’ because they were thrilled to pitch in and hel slavery expand. How nuts is that belief?

BN747


European colonization of Africa started in the second half of 19th century and by that time the slave trade was almost completely over. At least the transatlantic slave trade was, as mentioned in the other post, slave trade to the east was still very much alive but that wasn't run by white Europeans but by blacks and Arabs.

And no, whites didn't threaten locals with conquest at the time of the transatlantic slave trade. They offered large sums of money to local tribe chiefs who didn't care about selling people from a neighbouring tribe for a profit. So no, they were not coerced into it by force, they did it willingly and later on in the 19th century they opposed the suspension of the slave trade. The only thing they were forced to do was to put an end to this practice. That's a fact.


Dude, whites, Portugues, Dutch, etc slave traders was nothing like trading furs and spices, it was a practice with zero rules. The rules were whatever you decided they should be - and use of guns were very much apart of that he SOP to get what you wanted. This notion you have of it being done peaceful negotiation of sorts exist only in your brain. And the brutally employed by the slavers was simply setting the stage for the total rape of the continent - mid 19th century, the only thing you got right.

I suggest you go visit PBS’s lengthy Slavery:The Making of America or tune into an Inconvenient Truth:Slavery in Brazil (YouTube) for starters, but this rose colored nonsense you’re trying to sell leaves you as the only buyer. I can recommend more (plus books is f needed) if you feel to need to expand on your knowledge of what went on or remain stuck in that fantasy orbit of yours where everything was done in bliss.

BN747


We are not talking about the way slaves were treated after they were sold, this is a completely different discussion. Matter of fact is that until it is acknowledged that blacks (and Arabs) profited from the slave trade there is no point in further discussing this. This is historic revisionism and is best portrayed by your one sided approach to this topic. For example, you have not mentioned once that slavery and slave trade was legal in Ethiopia until the Italians abolished it in the 1930s. Why are we ignoring slavery among blacks? Maybe because it goes to show that selling their fellow blacks to whites is not such a controversial topic for them since it was already common practice?

Like I wrote much earlier, blacks have no right to ask for reparitions from any white country until they do the same from black and Arab countries that took part in it as well.
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:16 pm

Blerg wrote:
We are not talking about the way slaves were treated after they were sold, this is a completely different discussion. Matter of fact is that until it is acknowledged that blacks (and Arabs) profited from the slave trade there is no point in further discussing this. This is historic revisionism and is best portrayed by your one sided approach to this topic. For example, you have not mentioned once that slavery and slave trade was legal in Ethiopia until the Italians abolished it in the 1930s. Why are we ignoring slavery among blacks? Maybe because it goes to show that selling their fellow blacks to whites is not such a controversial topic for them since it was already common practice?

Like I wrote much earlier, blacks have no right to ask for reparitions from any white country until they do the same from black and Arab countries that took part in it as well.


First off, the topic is the case of Reparations USA...look at the heading above.

Where the damage done is evident for everyone not blind, the direct and very descendants of American slave victims walk past you everyday., sitting at a coffee shop next to you, library, bus, plane, etc.
They still suffer greatly from the everything negatively associated with the former legal practice in America.

The projects I suggested to you (like everything) has a beginning and an end.
Both discuss the practice used to make slavery in the West possible.

You are try and push this notion that slave trading was a nice neat practice like trading postage stamps, I don't know where you got this nice fuzzy version of the practice which is completely the opposite of what actually occurred.

As you stated above, you wish the first known slave traders Arabs/Africans be punished first. Go ahead, Identify them. Who do you see today as result of that past horror? How are their lives affected by this past you point out? Make the case.

Then the Moors raiding and damaging, enslaving whomever in southern Europe. - Identify them. Make their case.
Then European transcontinental acts of your 'friendly' slavery -where millions dies for a multitude of reason that you pass off as largely harmless.

Which brings us to the USA case and you feeling there's no need to address America's dark past which is closest to us than all that you hold as 'not worth it'.

American slavery can be touched, it's right here..photos, narratives, transactional records, etc.

The words you speak are the words that all past slave owners would employ (in a court today) if forced to defend their acts, by justifying their past acts that resulted in man’s inhumanity to man’s worst case scenario. Those acts were driven by only one thing..unchained greed. And permitted by law.

Warning Lecture starts here.

The cause of such unparalleled greed and avarice applies to all empires, kingdoms, nations that sanctioned the trade - from today’s permitted practice beck to the American slavery area as well that European acts, Arab transgressions, African practices as well. The fault lies entirely with those that allowed it. And each had prominent naysayers of the trade/practice who risked & lost all credibility and wealth by doing so such as Thomas Paine.

Today’s practice, inhumanity aside, exist only because of profit, Nothing else.

It is tolerated because it’s not you, your family, etc…you are removed. But there is more to it, throughout every period where slavery was in effect, it’s a special kind of human to make it possible, a special kind of BAD people/persons. It’s a top->down operation versus a bottom->Top operation. Meaning powerful forces keep it going, using the same methods since the beginning of time. Entice the most desperate/conquered of our species via force, hunger, any abject condition draped by desperation.

Those who profit from and drive the practice range on the extreme end of a human-to-inhumane scale.

10——————————-5—————————1
Humane ………………-mid-…………………Inhumane.

Where are you on the scale?…easy, your posted comments tell us.
Your empathy rates under the 5 mid point aimed at the worst standing - zero empathy.

Such are the darkest hearted people walking the planet and have been since the first human murder *a conscuious mind taking the life of another).
A dark heart is achieved by overcoming the compelled feeling to say ‘I’m sorry’ when one has done wrong: Seen or exposed to such wrongs and but choose to dismiss it, make excuse for or completely ignore wrong acts and wrong doings. It's what you (and similar expressed opinions) are doing. You are sharing your lack of empathy.

I never truly understood such people until an event I experienced a few years ago. I really didn’t think I’d meet one up close and personal in my life time.
Awhile back near an apartment I resided in, a new neighbor had moved on the block and word spread quickly of her having an aggressive Great Dane. Most of the area contained small dog owners along with many middle aged/elder women. I meant and befriended the Great Dane owner, even offered get her dog to become comfortable with little dogs such as mine (who and I’m not kidding here..is the most popular, friendliest little furry critter a mile of more in each direction - even the cops love the little guy). After a month or so the Great Dane became less and less aggressive due to some stern admonishment, I also worked her into the comaraderie of neighbors/dog owners crowd (mostly Jewish as was she-and boy did she prize that). After nearly a year, on or off drugs or drink or both while walking her dog, the Great Dane attacked a friend’s poodle (they both had previously instantly bonded over the Jewish line). I was summoned and took my friend her dog to the vet and sat and comforted her most of the night. That incident dinged her checking account for 5K. I wondered to myself that night - when I saw Great Dane chick, what could she possibly have to say after all that plus never bothered calling my/her friend’s to ask about her dog and to apologize.

I decided to terminate the friendship with Great Dane chick for allowing too much time (48 hours) to past without an apology nor an acknowledgment of fault. Which also meant an end to training the Great Dane to be comfortable with smaller dogs.

It happened again 4 month’s later.

And 3rd time 2 months after that, this time my closest friend in the area (she watches my pet when I’m out of town) I spent the night her at the vet again and this one was 26K in damages. A never an apology or acknowledgement. It ended with a court action and eviction of Great Dane chick.

Lack of Empathy. That is the game and means they sail thru on the life they live, by choice,

I still wonder how on earth can a seemingly sane person, a talented, formally educated and family of means produce such a creature? I’m still trying to sort out the mindset of such a person. The ‘I will Never Say I’m Sorry - For Anything’ crowd is a very real thing, very real people. And their numbers are larger than most believe. They are the enablers of humans evil and atrocities against one another. And their numbers increase the further back in time to you visit. Closer and closer to our animal nature and instincts.

Their tepid supporters or justifying agents fall somewhere below the ‘5’ midpoint to 1 range depending on their expressed opinions, they know exactly where they stand. They know because they are currently (and silently) profiting from Private Prisons which are warehouses for those unable to mount a defense. Anyone participating will say nothing here…just profit in silence and they are okay with that arrangement. Again, it’s someone else ..not them being caged with poor, little or unable to mount no defense. They are no difference than the investors of slave shipping companies and auctioneers. Their defenders - the ‘it’s the law’ crowd are equally at fault where their failing of logic and reason overrides and disables their own humanity. Human made laws are always crafted and enforced to someone’s benefit and someone’s misfortune in most cases and are their for very capable of being unjust, unfair and inhumane, Such was the case in America - state sanctioned slavery with enforcement laws covering the entire nation.

Those voicing opposition to any acts of reconciliations, restitution, apology, forms of reparation are closer to the 1 on the sliding scale of Humane-to-Inhumane than the 'Humane' end.
Their shared thoughts reveal their acceptance on inhumane acts, even those past (because as I said, were past slaveholders alive today they would use the arguments these people are making to justify their acts)…which is what those here have been doing for them.

That proof is reflected here all the time, (stated again and again voiced here on the forum) in their attacks on the undocumented. Again, desperate people fleeing violence, unstable homelands, etc while the ‘it’s the law’ crowd sees their nations as a burning building and a border wall is like bolting the doors shut so they are left to fend for themselves with no way out.

The voices in both cases are of the same strips, conservative in nature.

That conservative mind allows the ‘X’ing out of certain other humans when designated as ‘undesirables’.
That conservative mind is okay with humans cruelty towards others and very easily so. That thread of thought remains unbreakable harking back centuries.

The Liberal mind seeks out solutions to improve the human condition, they realize we are all in this together.
That conservative mind does not. They do not see themselves in the same boat as the desperate, undocumenteds, the unfortunate - and while hating those groups they’ll swear they are followers of their Jesus, Yahweh, Mohammed whoever…

That is why the liberal mind pulls away from such an egregious conflict.

That conservative mind has high tolerance for inhumanity. We do not.

They argue Hitler, Stalin. Mussolini, Pol Pot, Mao, Amin, etc did all their killing because they were atheist.
If that’s true then Hitler/Stalin did it because they was WHITE!
Mao, Tojo and Pol Pot did so because they were ASIAN!
Amin did his killing because he was BLACK!
They did in pursuit of one thing, Power and Lack of Empathy always makes it easier and possible to occur in the first place.

..their skin color had no more to do with their heinous acts than what marbles were bouncing around in their skulls as far religion goes.
They were BLACK-hearted humans.
They had NO Empathy.

You people with zero Empathy for those seeking a better life or your ability to be comfortable with past wrongs/crimes against humanity…are NO Different.
The only difference is those guys had power. You do not. But both given the means will execute.

But you have vote power, it’s power in quantized measures, but power nonetheless…I guess it explains the heroes of the Non-Empathetics such as Limbaugh, Falwell, Reagan, Steve King, David Duke, Louis Farrakhan, Louie Gohmert, Jim Jordan, tRump Family, Bush Family, all the way back to the first killing of Native Americans. It is a linear mentality unbroken, the savage kind of the human animal.

The demise of humankind will succumb to inhumanity before it is done in by an extinction event asteroid.

The Unlearned, those who have no appreciation, no respect, no concern of where humanity has been equally have no appreciation, no respect, no concern of where humanity is going.
The Unlearned are those who learned and separated themselves from the ignorance (which is origin of us all) and at a point of fear (unfolded or not), selfishness, greed and avarice extreme…rescind back into ideas of ignorance, by choice. They don’t want to see any more, they don’t want to know anymore, they don’t learn anymore.


Short term thought..or conservative thought, does not account for such accommodations. It is not important to them. Only the now is important to them and any future sees ‘only them’. It is what conservative means…it does not mean inclusiveness, their is no ‘we are in this together’ mentality for them.
Thus their lack of Empathy.

I expect a multitude of attacks and that’s okay (because it comes from ignorance and hatred - not factual stats nor empirical evidence) at least you know who you are.

I seek out any enlightened or intelligent conservative to the explain how their theoretical ideology aims toward the betterment of mankind in any way, shape or form. I actually don’t expect an

Lecture complete-

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Blerg
Posts: 2008
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed May 01, 2019 5:12 am

'As you stated above, you wish the first known slave traders Arabs/Africans be punished first. Go ahead, Identify them. Who do you see today as result of that past horror? How are their lives affected by this past you point out? Make the case.'

I can say the same to you and blacks in the US today. How will you decide who gets reparitions and who doesn't? What about all the Ethiopians in the US who moved there in the past 20 years? Do they get them as well despite having legal slavery up until the 1930s?

You can try to lecture others as much as you wish but your one-sided approach to this topic will always discredit you from any serious discussion. In the end they won't get anything and the world will move on like we moved one from other things as well... but sure, you can cry about it as much as you want because that's what the internet is for these days.

p.s. I love how you started your post by reminding me to stay on topic yet later on you went completely off topic with a non-sensical quasi-philosophical rant.
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
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Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Wed May 01, 2019 3:13 pm

Blerg wrote:
'As you stated above, you wish the first known slave traders Arabs/Africans be punished first. Go ahead, Identify them. Who do you see today as result of that past horror? How are their lives affected by this past you point out? Make the case.'

I can say the same to you and blacks in the US today. How will you decide who gets reparitions and who doesn't? What about all the Ethiopians in the US who moved there in the past 20 years? Do they get them as well despite having legal slavery up until the 1930s?


You are now trolling, I expressed my thoughts on the complicated dissecting of Reparations and how difficult of a task it is in my first post.
You not concerned in the slightest - your position is clear, you against it-end of story. I see no reason discuss this with someone holding such a inflexible stance against any consideration of reparations.
It's pointless.



Blerg wrote:
You can try to lecture others as much as you wish but your one-sided approach to this topic will always discredit you from any serious discussion.


There are only two sides - empathy for humane treatments of other humans AND the antithetical opposite...you presented the case for the latter, also one-sided, I'm incapable of arguing both sides of the issue because I believe in the adverse position that hold.


Blerg wrote:
In the end they won't get anything and the world will move on like we moved one from other things as well... but sure, you can cry about it as much as you want because that's what the internet is for these days.


Yes, your so stated preference...but fortunately, most Americans and humans in general stand more in the corner of standing for humane treatment and hold no problems with correcting past wrongs, you do however and the numbers of people such as yourself are few and becoming fewer.

'Cry did you say?' If there's any crying it appears you are about being identified as without empathy. Just ask yourself, how did you become that way...where how you grew up shaped those attitudes, it's near hereditary but not quite. I see is a person claiming to be human demonstrating how comfortable he is embracing inhumanity. I'd cry too if I were locked in that mindset and no one told me.

Blerg wrote:
p.s. I love how you started your post by reminding me to stay on topic yet later on you went completely off topic with a non-sensical quasi-philosophical rant.


Well you should have never said "We are not talking about the way slaves were treated after they were sold, this is a completely different discussion." and fly off with such misguidance.
Like any atrocity, Slavery it has a beginning a middle and an end. But this one has illumines and lasting legacy, I brought it back and delivered a substantive rant with defining sides of the factual occurrence.

No, you don't love having your position explained in the only way that it can - a person holds empathy (not you) OR they hold little (only for themselves and like kind) or zero empathy (only for themselves).
The 'rant' served it's purpose of leaving no doubts whatsoever in explaining man's inhumanity to man and those who will fight to death to sustain it, continue it and never feel anything about it.
Yeah bro, a necessary rant that left no stones unturned

Stick with your spoken words (stance) and remain who you are instead of trying to make this adversarial.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17390
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Thu May 02, 2019 3:33 am

Blerg wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I am not running away, I am just pointing out the one-sidednes of your argument. It's worse because if those blacks didn't sell them in the first place, those evil whites couldn't spend an entire lifetime extracting labour out of them. You can't attack the buyers without condemning the sellers since both profited. Not to mention that later on in the 19th century blacks were quite opposed to the abolition of the slave trade.

A one off transaction is worse than a lifetime of slavery *and* your entire progeny enslaved for their lifetimes as well? By what metric?


You do realize that's the first step in the process, right? That's how it begins and how it all started. Without it fewer people would have been turned into slaves and that's why it's much worse. Don't forget that when white British tried to put an end to slave trade in Africa, Arabs and local blacks were so vehemently opposed that the British navy had to threaten with the bombardment of Zanzibar. Even after whites stopped trading slaves, Arabs and blacks kept on doing it. If you are looking to blame someone for slavery then it certainly isn't the whites.

You think the Europeans would have packed up, turned around, and gone home without local support?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
jdstJD
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:40 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Mon May 06, 2019 3:00 am

BN747 wrote:
A very complex issue.

Right now, Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, AMLO has publicly demanded an Official Apology from Spain and the Vatican.
Where this will go, I don't know...but it will not dies...it will only grow.

Here in America, the same.

But first, let me say that a few years ago, I felt that US Reparations should be two fold.

1.First an official apology must be extended by the United States for permitting the practice.

2.Exact a financial penalty on every state that participated in legal state sanctioned slavery.
That would include all of the original 13 first states.
- those that had the shortest period of Slavery, the penalty would be on the lower end of a sliding scale.
- the Southern States that carried on with the practice without making war on the US would pay a higher penalty.
- the Southern States that went to War to maintain the practice would pay the steepest penalty.
The Reparations Penalty Fund would be dispersed in payments to individual Black Families with lineage established from the 1600s (colonial period until 1954).
The Reparations Penalty Fund would also payoff the balance or pay 50% toward home-ownership to any Black household of Low Incomes that apply.

Now the problem with that - Economically, it would Financially devastate AL, AR, KY, KS, LA, MD, MO, MS, NC, SC,TN, VA, WV....Forever. They'd all become like Mississippi today - a complete mess. Other states would have carry their burden.

Today, I think some sort of resolution must happen one way or another but it will require a long period of concentrated townhalls, committees and studies to emerge with acceptable options. And bear in mind, whatever the settled upon agreement to address centuries of wrong doing...it's now going to open the door to address the damage and harm to Native Americans - which will be huge and justified.

The Nations involved in the Slave Trade, who clearly enriched their coffers, must also be apart of this process - actually, I'd have more faith in a European study of the issue vs an American one because here in the US, those people who hate or want to keep Confederate statues (politicians) will only muddy the process because they are trying there very best to abscond from any responsibility for their states role in Slavery. They will not prove to be honest brokers - proof of that has been demonstrated to us by how quickly they ceased on the Roberts Court ruling 'Voting Rights protections are no longer need'...every state under the Voting Rights protections ruling immediate dismantled what was in place - that is their current attitude on 'Righting Past Wrongs'.

But any paid Education solutions are moot...America needs a free Education for all citizens apart from reparations...a separate issue.

But they lasting damage occurring past the point of Emancipation is still here today - black police shootings, blacks treated horribly by housing authorities, banks, etc are extensive.
But somehow this must all be taken into consideration of any solution.

The South's easy answer is 'c'mon Black People, it was along time ago...let it go.' Rapists wish you'd forget what they just did too. But the victim never forgets and pain never fades.
So Texas all these states 'erasing America's Original sin from history books' will only made future solutions worse as America grows darker and less white. The longer the nation waits to deal with this, the worse it's going get. Time is not on side of those that strive to put it off and prolong it.

I for one, do not have an answer but I do plan read the thoughts of published pieces on the issue, I need to hear what brighter and more focused minds on issue.

But I'd like to see something Fair and Just in the end...it's just a steep, steep precipice...we are headed that way anyhow.

Where it will go, I currently have no idea.

BN747


Excellent post.
Lawyer, frequent air traveler and aviation enthusiast.
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue May 07, 2019 3:51 pm

jdstJD wrote:
BN747 wrote:
A very complex issue.

Right now, Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, AMLO has publicly demanded an Official Apology from Spain and the Vatican.
Where this will go, I don't know...but it will not dies...it will only grow.

Here in America, the same.

But first, let me say that a few years ago, I felt that US Reparations should be two fold.

1.First an official apology must be extended by the United States for permitting the practice.

2.Exact a financial penalty on every state that participated in legal state sanctioned slavery.
That would include all of the original 13 first states.
- those that had the shortest period of Slavery, the penalty would be on the lower end of a sliding scale.
- the Southern States that carried on with the practice without making war on the US would pay a higher penalty.
- the Southern States that went to War to maintain the practice would pay the steepest penalty.
The Reparations Penalty Fund would be dispersed in payments to individual Black Families with lineage established from the 1600s (colonial period until 1954).
The Reparations Penalty Fund would also payoff the balance or pay 50% toward home-ownership to any Black household of Low Incomes that apply.

Now the problem with that - Economically, it would Financially devastate AL, AR, KY, KS, LA, MD, MO, MS, NC, SC,TN, VA, WV....Forever. They'd all become like Mississippi today - a complete mess. Other states would have carry their burden.

Today, I think some sort of resolution must happen one way or another but it will require a long period of concentrated townhalls, committees and studies to emerge with acceptable options. And bear in mind, whatever the settled upon agreement to address centuries of wrong doing...it's now going to open the door to address the damage and harm to Native Americans - which will be huge and justified.

The Nations involved in the Slave Trade, who clearly enriched their coffers, must also be apart of this process - actually, I'd have more faith in a European study of the issue vs an American one because here in the US, those people who hate or want to keep Confederate statues (politicians) will only muddy the process because they are trying there very best to abscond from any responsibility for their states role in Slavery. They will not prove to be honest brokers - proof of that has been demonstrated to us by how quickly they ceased on the Roberts Court ruling 'Voting Rights protections are no longer need'...every state under the Voting Rights protections ruling immediate dismantled what was in place - that is their current attitude on 'Righting Past Wrongs'.

But any paid Education solutions are moot...America needs a free Education for all citizens apart from reparations...a separate issue.

But they lasting damage occurring past the point of Emancipation is still here today - black police shootings, blacks treated horribly by housing authorities, banks, etc are extensive.
But somehow this must all be taken into consideration of any solution.

The South's easy answer is 'c'mon Black People, it was along time ago...let it go.' Rapists wish you'd forget what they just did too. But the victim never forgets and pain never fades.
So Texas all these states 'erasing America's Original sin from history books' will only made future solutions worse as America grows darker and less white. The longer the nation waits to deal with this, the worse it's going get. Time is not on side of those that strive to put it off and prolong it.

I for one, do not have an answer but I do plan read the thoughts of published pieces on the issue, I need to hear what brighter and more focused minds on issue.

But I'd like to see something Fair and Just in the end...it's just a steep, steep precipice...we are headed that way anyhow.

Where it will go, I currently have no idea.

BN747


Excellent post.


Thanks sorry for the errant omissions & mispellings.

After re-reading my 1st post (that you commented on) & my last...I've realized that from a world whose past containing it's worst atrocities due to worldwide ignorance, savagery and innate human animal instinct has gone from transition to transition bringing us from those days to a period where ignorance is still quite prevalent, savagery has diminished greatly while still holding firm when greed is the motivator. It's obvious that the more education overtakes ignorance the greater the threat to the global powerful elite & the corporate power.

The global powerful elite & the corporate powers are NOT out for powerless masses...They only need them to sustain their well being and lifestyle of opulence.

But powerless masses are the ones who forced thru the necessary changes to bring humanity from the days of savagery to a world starting to believe in a truthful human set of rights and wrongs.


Twentieth century overtures by governments to correct sanctioned past wrongs thru reconciliations, reparations, apologies for war crimes, etc.

The direction is continuously heading toward addressing these past wrongs and making them right - NOT in the direction of dismissive, overlooking and abandoning corrective measures but rest assured the resistance will continue from those with complete disregard of past wrongs, their devastating legacies bleeding into societies to this day. But it is moving toward that direction as opposed to away.

Many say 'Now is not the time'...thing is 'the right time, in fact, never comes and rarely ever at the right time which no one can define).

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
User avatar
jdstJD
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:40 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue May 07, 2019 6:56 pm

BN747 wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
BN747 wrote:
A very complex issue.

Right now, Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, AMLO has publicly demanded an Official Apology from Spain and the Vatican.
Where this will go, I don't know...but it will not dies...it will only grow.

Here in America, the same.

But first, let me say that a few years ago, I felt that US Reparations should be two fold.

1.First an official apology must be extended by the United States for permitting the practice.

2.Exact a financial penalty on every state that participated in legal state sanctioned slavery.
That would include all of the original 13 first states.
- those that had the shortest period of Slavery, the penalty would be on the lower end of a sliding scale.
- the Southern States that carried on with the practice without making war on the US would pay a higher penalty.
- the Southern States that went to War to maintain the practice would pay the steepest penalty.
The Reparations Penalty Fund would be dispersed in payments to individual Black Families with lineage established from the 1600s (colonial period until 1954).
The Reparations Penalty Fund would also payoff the balance or pay 50% toward home-ownership to any Black household of Low Incomes that apply.

Now the problem with that - Economically, it would Financially devastate AL, AR, KY, KS, LA, MD, MO, MS, NC, SC,TN, VA, WV....Forever. They'd all become like Mississippi today - a complete mess. Other states would have carry their burden.

Today, I think some sort of resolution must happen one way or another but it will require a long period of concentrated townhalls, committees and studies to emerge with acceptable options. And bear in mind, whatever the settled upon agreement to address centuries of wrong doing...it's now going to open the door to address the damage and harm to Native Americans - which will be huge and justified.

The Nations involved in the Slave Trade, who clearly enriched their coffers, must also be apart of this process - actually, I'd have more faith in a European study of the issue vs an American one because here in the US, those people who hate or want to keep Confederate statues (politicians) will only muddy the process because they are trying there very best to abscond from any responsibility for their states role in Slavery. They will not prove to be honest brokers - proof of that has been demonstrated to us by how quickly they ceased on the Roberts Court ruling 'Voting Rights protections are no longer need'...every state under the Voting Rights protections ruling immediate dismantled what was in place - that is their current attitude on 'Righting Past Wrongs'.

But any paid Education solutions are moot...America needs a free Education for all citizens apart from reparations...a separate issue.

But they lasting damage occurring past the point of Emancipation is still here today - black police shootings, blacks treated horribly by housing authorities, banks, etc are extensive.
But somehow this must all be taken into consideration of any solution.

The South's easy answer is 'c'mon Black People, it was along time ago...let it go.' Rapists wish you'd forget what they just did too. But the victim never forgets and pain never fades.
So Texas all these states 'erasing America's Original sin from history books' will only made future solutions worse as America grows darker and less white. The longer the nation waits to deal with this, the worse it's going get. Time is not on side of those that strive to put it off and prolong it.

I for one, do not have an answer but I do plan read the thoughts of published pieces on the issue, I need to hear what brighter and more focused minds on issue.

But I'd like to see something Fair and Just in the end...it's just a steep, steep precipice...we are headed that way anyhow.

Where it will go, I currently have no idea.

BN747


Excellent post.


Thanks sorry for the errant omissions & mispellings.

After re-reading my 1st post (that you commented on) & my last...I've realized that from a world whose past containing it's worst atrocities due to worldwide ignorance, savagery and innate human animal instinct has gone from transition to transition bringing us from those days to a period where ignorance is still quite prevalent, savagery has diminished greatly while still holding firm when greed is the motivator. It's obvious that the more education overtakes ignorance the greater the threat to the global powerful elite & the corporate power.

The global powerful elite & the corporate powers are NOT out for powerless masses...They only need them to sustain their well being and lifestyle of opulence.

But powerless masses are the ones who forced thru the necessary changes to bring humanity from the days of savagery to a world starting to believe in a truthful human set of rights and wrongs.


Twentieth century overtures by governments to correct sanctioned past wrongs thru reconciliations, reparations, apologies for war crimes, etc.

The direction is continuously heading toward addressing these past wrongs and making them right - NOT in the direction of dismissive, overlooking and abandoning corrective measures but rest assured the resistance will continue from those with complete disregard of past wrongs, their devastating legacies bleeding into societies to this day. But it is moving toward that direction as opposed to away.

Many say 'Now is not the time'...thing is 'the right time, in fact, never comes and rarely ever at the right time which no one can define).

BN747


While I agree with the basic concepts in this post, I still grapple with the issue. Now, I am a black person so some may find my position on the issue strange, but as with many, if not all, other complicated issues I contemplate I try to look at it from all sides.

So, yeah the institution of slavery was unfathomably horrid, of course. And it has been a tumultuous period of time in America since it was abolished as we’ve tried to overcome the legacy of being considered inferior to whites and alienated from most facets of American society. But on the other hand, I feel like there has been a steady, albeit slow, movement of progress over the years through which conditions in the country have improved for us. In that respect I kind of feel like we are getting reparations, so to speak, because the country as an institution and as a people are trying to recover from that division and centuries of engrained mindset of who black people are in America given our origin. This has come in the form of changes in legislation, affirmative action, social programs, etc. etc. I am not one of those who feel like those programs have failed. I think they have been good faith efforts to right wrongs that are for too complicated to address. In all honesty, it is deeply painful and infuriating to have to live with the reality that slavery happened to our people and all that happened since and I don’t know that anyone in the country truly knows how to handle that or what can be done about it. It’s like there has been no closure. I can feel it when people talk about reparations, or when people talk about America formally apologizing for slavery (like that’s supposed to do something) or even when I see Ancestry.com commercials. I can’t help but feel the sting that there is pretty much no way we can have our ancestry traced back like everyone else because of how our ancestors were simply erased from history. It runs deep. However, I have no clue what to do about it. Nor do I think the country knows what to do about it. I understand that. No one knows what “programs” people are really talking about when they say that that’s what reparations should consist of. What programs can be created or implemented that haven’t already been tried to counteract or reverse the effects of slavery? So I think that’s why the conversation is so cyclical. No one knows what to do, yet the collective anger and pain is still there because that void and lack of closure is there.

Having said all of that, it DOES NOT help when people insult blacks by blowing these issues off or getting angry with us telling us to just get over it or call us lazy or self proclaimed victims and all that other bull$h!t. There are problems in our community just like everyone else’s but those issues are completely separate from the unique and narrow issue of the impact slavery has had on the country as a society. That hostile attitude from others does nothing but add to the fury that is already there under the surface.
Lawyer, frequent air traveler and aviation enthusiast.
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue May 07, 2019 8:20 pm

jdstJD wrote:
BN747 wrote:
jdstJD wrote:

Excellent post.


Thanks sorry for the errant omissions & mispellings.

After re-reading my 1st post (that you commented on) & my last...I've realized that from a world whose past containing it's worst atrocities due to worldwide ignorance, savagery and innate human animal instinct has gone from transition to transition bringing us from those days to a period where ignorance is still quite prevalent, savagery has diminished greatly while still holding firm when greed is the motivator. It's obvious that the more education overtakes ignorance the greater the threat to the global powerful elite & the corporate power.

The global powerful elite & the corporate powers are NOT out for powerless masses...They only need them to sustain their well being and lifestyle of opulence.

But powerless masses are the ones who forced thru the necessary changes to bring humanity from the days of savagery to a world starting to believe in a truthful human set of rights and wrongs.


Twentieth century overtures by governments to correct sanctioned past wrongs thru reconciliations, reparations, apologies for war crimes, etc.

The direction is continuously heading toward addressing these past wrongs and making them right - NOT in the direction of dismissive, overlooking and abandoning corrective measures but rest assured the resistance will continue from those with complete disregard of past wrongs, their devastating legacies bleeding into societies to this day. But it is moving toward that direction as opposed to away.

Many say 'Now is not the time'...thing is 'the right time, in fact, never comes and rarely ever at the right time which no one can define).

BN747


While I agree with the basic concepts in this post, I still grapple with the issue. Now, I am a black person so some may find my position on the issue strange, but as with many, if not all, other complicated issues I contemplate I try to look at it from all sides.

So, yeah the institution of slavery was unfathomably horrid, of course. And it has been a tumultuous period of time in America since it was abolished as we’ve tried to overcome the legacy of being considered inferior to whites and alienated from most facets of American society. But on the other hand, I feel like there has been a steady, albeit slow, movement of progress over the years through which conditions in the country have improved for us. In that respect I kind of feel like we are getting reparations, so to speak, because the country as an institution and as a people are trying to recover from that division and centuries of engrained mindset of who black people are in America given our origin. This has come in the form of changes in legislation, affirmative action, social programs, etc. etc. I am not one of those who feel like those programs have failed. I think they have been good faith efforts to right wrongs that are for too complicated to address. In all honesty, it is deeply painful and infuriating to have to live with the reality that slavery happened to our people and all that happened since and I don’t know that anyone in the country truly knows how to handle that or what can be done about it. It’s like there has been no closure. I can feel it when people talk about reparations, or when people talk about America formally apologizing for slavery (like that’s supposed to do something) or even when I see Ancestry.com commercials. I can’t help but feel the sting that there is pretty much no way we can have our ancestry traced back like everyone else because of how our ancestors were simply erased from history. It runs deep. However, I have no clue what to do about it. Nor do I think the country knows what to do about it. I understand that. No one knows what “programs” people are really talking about when they say that that’s what reparations should consist of. What programs can be created or implemented that haven’t already been tried to counteract or reverse the effects of slavery? So I think that’s why the conversation is so cyclical. No one knows what to do, yet the collective anger and pain is still there because that void and lack of closure is there.

Having said all of that, it DOES NOT help when people insult blacks by blowing these issues off or getting angry with us telling us to just get over it or call us lazy or self proclaimed victims and all that other bull$h!t. There are problems in our community just like everyone else’s but those issues are completely separate from the unique and narrow issue of the impact slavery has had on the country as a society. That hostile attitude from others does nothing but add to the fury that is already there under the surface.


Brilliant post!

Very well thought out. My points worth considering are two.
That the practice occurred so long ago would perfectly fall in the 'ok' column IF ...IF 'it was a long, long, lpng time ago in a place far, far, far away'
BUT it is a long, long, long time ago BUT right HERE! Starting over There AND There.
It's aftermath started and still is casting a long black bleak pall negatively impacting one specific race over all others .. with degrees of lessening degradations, humility and indignities as one accepts the terms of the oppressors (originators).

Of all the Slavery stories dating back to the beginning...this episode spanned 4 continents, originating from one, connecting them all.
It connected them all in their scheme to better their standing at the among human ranks.

How to move forward, while we seek solutions to problems of our own makings, we must face how we solved some problems over times past. In doing so, we've taught ourselves to look back over or histories to see if precedence exist, any type of precedent would serve as a basis for moving forward. But are unable to do that due to the fact that our current state has no blue print or chart showing the us the way.

Making it up as we go, will it be JUST or UNJUST?

So we must decide. We are building the needed blue print of who we wish to become OR letting a 'roll of the dice' determine our outcome.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Tue May 07, 2019 8:53 pm

jdstJD wrote:
While I agree with the basic concepts in this post, I still grapple with the issue. Now, I am a black person so some may find my position on the issue strange, but as with many, if not all, other complicated issues I contemplate I try to look at it from all sides.

So, yeah the institution of slavery was unfathomably horrid, of course. And it has been a tumultuous period of time in America since it was abolished as we’ve tried to overcome the legacy of being considered inferior to whites and alienated from most facets of American society. But on the other hand, I feel like there has been a steady, albeit slow, movement of progress over the years through which conditions in the country have improved for us. In that respect I kind of feel like we are getting reparations, so to speak, because the country as an institution and as a people are trying to recover from that division and centuries of engrained mindset of who black people are in America given our origin. This has come in the form of changes in legislation, affirmative action, social programs, etc. etc. I am not one of those who feel like those programs have failed. I think they have been good faith efforts to right wrongs that are for too complicated to address. In all honesty, it is deeply painful and infuriating to have to live with the reality that slavery happened to our people and all that happened since and I don’t know that anyone in the country truly knows how to handle that or what can be done about it. It’s like there has been no closure. I can feel it when people talk about reparations, or when people talk about America formally apologizing for slavery (like that’s supposed to do something) or even when I see Ancestry.com commercials. I can’t help but feel the sting that there is pretty much no way we can have our ancestry traced back like everyone else because of how our ancestors were simply erased from history. It runs deep. However, I have no clue what to do about it. Nor do I think the country knows what to do about it. I understand that. No one knows what “programs” people are really talking about when they say that that’s what reparations should consist of. What programs can be created or implemented that haven’t already been tried to counteract or reverse the effects of slavery? So I think that’s why the conversation is so cyclical. No one knows what to do, yet the collective anger and pain is still there because that void and lack of closure is there.

Having said all of that, it DOES NOT help when people insult blacks by blowing these issues off or getting angry with us telling us to just get over it or call us lazy or self proclaimed victims and all that other bull$h!t. There are problems in our community just like everyone else’s but those issues are completely separate from the unique and narrow issue of the impact slavery has had on the country as a society. That hostile attitude from others does nothing but add to the fury that is already there under the surface.


I grew up in Las Vegas, a city that does not offer much evidence of structural/institutional racism relative to most cities. You never heard about one ethnic group living a certain area more than others, although there were clearly richer and poorer areas. My only exposure to institutional racism was when I found out in school that some kids (mostly African Americans) from poorer neighborhoods were bussed 15-20 miles to some of the nicer schools (I don't know how I feel about that - I appreciate what they're trying to do, but I think more good can be done by improving the schools closer to their home). And Vegas had the advantage of all public schools in the valley being under the same school district, making it easier to redistribute funds from richer schools to poorer ones. But I've now lived the last 7 years in Chicagoland, an area with lots of structural racism and clearly defined areas where certain ethnic groups live in large quantities. It's been quite the exposure to better understand just how much longer of a ladder minorities have to climb in order to be successful in this country and all the extra barriers that needed to be overcome, and also how unaware folks who are on the good side of inequality are about said biases.

The hardest part about solving institutional racism is that the concepts of racism, income inequality, education, and health care are separate but related concepts. They are intertwined with each other and combine to influence the likelihood of someone being successful and it's difficult to decipher which element is the biggest factor.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
Jetty
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Sun May 12, 2019 1:01 pm

BN747 wrote:
The Africans where BOTH - enticed to sell their compatriots (just the British seduced & threatened China. And they employed the ‘either we take your villagers or you snatch your country men for us- they were coerced into it by force.
Your take attempts to paint a picture of Africans happily rounding up ‘others’ because they were thrilled to pitch in and hel slavery expand. How nuts is that belief?

It might be nuts to you because it doesn't fit your narrative of evil Europeans and poor Africans, but it's true. Maybe not because they were thrilled to expand slavery, but because the opportunities trading as equals with Europeans offered. The remark about 'your country men' shows how uninformed you are: Africans didn't trade their 'own' people, but members of other tribes they indeed viewed as 'others'.

Recommended reading:

Where the Negroes Are Masters, An African Port in the Era of the Slave Trade
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php? ... nt=reviews

Africans entered the trans-Atlantic slave trade as more than cargo; many operated as wily merchants integral to the far-reaching Atlantic commerce that began with European contact and the search for gold in the 1430s and shifted to traffic in humans. Unveiling African merchant elites functioning as cultural brokers, literate in English and traveled in Europe and the Americas, and operating as major forces responding to 18th-century market opportunities, Sparks expands our understanding of the Atlantic connections of West Africa’s coastal trading communities
 
BN747
Posts: 6536
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Reparations are being asked from the United States

Sun May 12, 2019 3:01 pm

Jetty wrote:
BN747 wrote:
The Africans where BOTH - enticed to sell their compatriots (just the British seduced & threatened China. And they employed the ‘either we take your villagers or you snatch your country men for us- they were coerced into it by force.
Your take attempts to paint a picture of Africans happily rounding up ‘others’ because they were thrilled to pitch in and hel slavery expand. How nuts is that belief?

It might be nuts to you because it doesn't fit your narrative of evil Europeans and poor Africans, but it's true. Maybe not because they were thrilled to expand slavery, but because the opportunities trading as equals with Europeans offered. The remark about 'your country men' shows how uninformed you are: Africans didn't trade their 'own' people, but members of other tribes they indeed viewed as 'others'.

Recommended reading:

Where the Negroes Are Masters, An African Port in the Era of the Slave Trade
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php? ... nt=reviews

Africans entered the trans-Atlantic slave trade as more than cargo; many operated as wily merchants integral to the far-reaching Atlantic commerce that began with European contact and the search for gold in the 1430s and shifted to traffic in humans. Unveiling African merchant elites functioning as cultural brokers, literate in English and traveled in Europe and the Americas, and operating as major forces responding to 18th-century market opportunities, Sparks expands our understanding of the Atlantic connections of West Africa’s coastal trading communities


Nothing nuts about it, I included this aspect/angle of their involvement as well. You haven't read my post but none of what you've posted alters the driving force, the toll taken and damage caused along with the motivating factors behind the entire scheme.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson

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