bennett123
Posts: 8758
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:13 am

BN747

I would have to disagree with you on that.

The loss of either of those would also be tragic.

Particularly the Wailing Wall as Christianity grew out of Judahism.
 
BN747
Posts: 6421
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:18 am

bennett123 wrote:
BN747

I would have to disagree with you on that.

The loss of either of those would also be tragic.

Particularly the Wailing Wall as Christianity grew out of Judahism.


I don't think you caught my meaning correctly, damaged (repairable) VS destroyed (irreplaceable).

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2504
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:07 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
And while I'm being criticized for making an observation, your bigger concern should be others who are likely to use this as a rallying cry to say that Christianity is under attack (oh yes...you'll find a few folks out there in social media, and I would not be the least bit surprised if this ended up in right-wing media in some form, either immediately or after conspiracy websites start posting it).


And just reading some comments on discussion random discussion boards (not a.net), you can bet that even if the cause of fire is determined to be an accident, people will still go "it's a cover-up, clearly it's one of those radical mussies burning up everything".

Sigh...last time I was in Paris I didn't have the time to visit Notre-Dame. It definitely won't be the same even after they rebuild it. I'm not religious, but I still appreciate the history and architecture of the building, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels that way.
 
wingman
Posts: 3694
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:23 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:

Sigh...last time I was in Paris I didn't have the time to visit Notre-Dame. It definitely won't be the same even after they rebuild it. I'm not religious, but I still appreciate the history and architecture of the building, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels that way.


It'll be the same. Not to dismiss the hysteria of the moment yesterday, and certainly not the effort to put out the fire, but the place looks pretty well intact. Salma Hayek's husband already ponied up $113M for the rebuild. It's hard to see how a new roof and spire could cost half that much. But between Church and State I bet every last penny vanishes without a trace. History and architecture will survive, as will custom.
 
slider
Posts: 7337
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:44 pm

From a French friend of mine, who wrote this. Some good perspective on the damage, the structure itself, etc:
“Unlike American viewers I watched the news live last evening and heard first hand reports of the firefighters on the scene. The fire was an accident caused by a worker's torch, it rapidly got out of control in the wood roof which is post & beam construction; once the conflagration started, there was little the firefighters could do except let it burn out. Beneath the wood roof is the empty attic (granier) below that is the top of the interlaced stone ceiling structures called "voûtes" those voûtes largely protected the interior of the cathedral from the fire. Pouring water on the fire risked shattering the stone and allow water to penetrate. The voûtes above the transept gave way and allowed the burnt oak beams to crash through. A lot of priceless relics were saved by brave firemen. Reconstruction is to start sooner rather than later, within three years. France has over 40,000 churches and building restorers have a lot of experience. It was a terribly sad event but it is repairable.”

He added to me that the challenge will be to clear the stone, cool it off carefully so as not to cool it to cracking, get debris off immediately, and then reconstruction can begin once site is clear, cleaned. He also said that when they rebuild the roof, new construction techniques and materials can be used (including fusing the stone to the new wood) that could make it more impervious for future fire danger. So there’s a bit of good news today!
 
slider
Posts: 7337
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:45 pm

wingman wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

Sigh...last time I was in Paris I didn't have the time to visit Notre-Dame. It definitely won't be the same even after they rebuild it. I'm not religious, but I still appreciate the history and architecture of the building, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels that way.


It'll be the same. Not to dismiss the hysteria of the moment yesterday, and certainly not the effort to put out the fire, but the place looks pretty well intact. Salma Hayek's husband already ponied up $113M for the rebuild. It's hard to see how a new roof and spire could cost half that much. But between Church and State I bet every last penny vanishes without a trace. History and architecture will survive, as will custom.


I'll disagree--I think the high profile nature of this means there will be more transparency on cost, especially if the state is involved. They're going to need some of the best contractors and project managers around for this one!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5005
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:57 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
And while I'm being criticized for making an observation, your bigger concern should be others who are likely to use this as a rallying cry to say that Christianity is under attack (oh yes...you'll find a few folks out there in social media, and I would not be the least bit surprised if this ended up in right-wing media in some form, either immediately or after conspiracy websites start posting it).

Glenn Beck is already insinuating that Islamists set the Cathedral on fire. Also, apparently violence against Christians in Europe is 'out of control' (his words). Never knew, and I live here!
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:08 pm

What is lost is lost for always. It will be repaired but it will never be the same.

As a french I am sad because of the place it has in the french history and culture. (If someone says walt disney it should be hung by the balls!). I don't really are about the religious part as we have hundreds of churches.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:11 pm

I just read that the rosaces de vitraux (stained glass rosette acording to google) from the XIIIe century survived. It is a small miracle if it is true.

And already 600 millions euros collected for the repairs....
 
alfa164
Posts: 2877
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Scorpio wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
And while I'm being criticized for making an observation, your bigger concern should be others who are likely to use this as a rallying cry to say that Christianity is under attack (oh yes...you'll find a few folks out there in social media, and I would not be the least bit surprised if this ended up in right-wing media in some form, either immediately or after conspiracy websites start posting it).

Glenn Beck is already insinuating that Islamists set the Cathedral on fire. Also, apparently violence against Christians in Europe is 'out of control' (his words). Never knew, and I live here!


Glen Beck is a nut case. I am sorry we have to export our bigotry and sensationalism after such a tragedy.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:44 am

Such old structures are surprisingly resistant to fire, especially if you know what you are doing. And at least when it came to fighting the fire the French knew what they were doing - not so much when planning the restoration works though. (If working on such a building with a wooden roof you have a high pressure fire fighting system installed in advance so that you can put out any fire in seconds.)

Considering that they did not follow bad advice (like water drops from helicopters) there is a good chance that the damage to the stone structure is limited.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:00 am

seahawk wrote:
Such old structures are surprisingly resistant to fire, especially if you know what you are doing.


Why are you surprised? I am not. In the old days it wasn't possible to design such a building to the limits and as such a building like this tents to be over-dimensioned and as such more resilient to this kind of catastrophic events. And remember that fires were much more common in the old days.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:38 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Such old structures are surprisingly resistant to fire, especially if you know what you are doing.


Why are you surprised? I am not. In the old days it wasn't possible to design such a building to the limits and as such a building like this tents to be over-dimensioned and as such more resilient to this kind of catastrophic events. And remember that fires were much more common in the old days.


For today the important part is "If you know what you are doing" - fighting a fire in such a building can cause a lot of damage if you do it the wrong way. Much more damage than letting the building burn out even.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:44 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Such old structures are surprisingly resistant to fire, especially if you know what you are doing.


Why are you surprised? I am not. In the old days it wasn't possible to design such a building to the limits and as such a building like this tents to be over-dimensioned and as such more resilient to this kind of catastrophic events. And remember that fires were much more common in the old days.


For today the important part is "If you know what you are doing" - fighting a fire in such a building can cause a lot of damage if you do it the wrong way. Much more damage than letting the building burn out even.


So you are complimenting the pompiers doing the fire fighting, than I would agree, great job for saving as much as the building as they could.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Why are you surprised? I am not. In the old days it wasn't possible to design such a building to the limits and as such a building like this tents to be over-dimensioned and as such more resilient to this kind of catastrophic events. And remember that fires were much more common in the old days.


For today the important part is "If you know what you are doing" - fighting a fire in such a building can cause a lot of damage if you do it the wrong way. Much more damage than letting the building burn out even.


So you are complimenting the pompiers doing the fire fighting, than I would agree, great job for saving as much as the building as they could.


It seems like they did well when fighting the fire, and preserving the structure - which is difficult and requires different techniques than normal.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14103
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:26 am

While Notre Dame has no roof for now, how many 1000's of persons in Paris alone don't have a roof over them, living in the streets, in sub-standard housing or in distant suburbs as can't afford housing closer to their work. Why are some many very rich persons and corporations in France willing to put up 100's of Millions of Euros to restore this cathedral but don't pay many of their workers a living wage ? Much of the roof structure was of very old oak timbers that cannot be found easily or cheaply today and would remove too many old growth trees to do so.

Several years ago a 200 year old church in my hometown in NJ had to replace it rotting roof. It wasn't cheap, at about $400,000, but it was needed and the church provides a value to the town and area that cannot be measured in money. They used newer materials as large timbers it originally had are difficult and expensive to get but it still kept the function and appearance desired.

Yes, like many others, I would like to see Notre Dame have a new roof, but we also have to recognize that it is only a roof to a building and only needs to function for that. It may mean using newer materials that are better, cheaper, less environmentally harmful, safer and cheaper to put in and maintain yet still look good. It would also mean less costs to the taxpayers of France, some of whom have been objecting with violence as to higher fuel taxes and cuts to services. Any leftover monies from donations could be used to fund the repairs of other churches in Paris and elsewhere in France that also need help.
 
wingman
Posts: 3694
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:05 pm

I have a nagging suspicion this outpouring of grief and euros over such a "monumental and national tragedy" is going to turn very nasty. People outside of Paris that suffer in any conceivable way, and already chafe at how the cite sucks most tax revenue for its own pampering purposes, will start questioning the largesse soon enough. Beautiful building and deserving of a top notch job, but let's be honest, no deaths, no major precious works lost, building core completely intact with just a roof and add-on spire to be replaced..I think a single meeting of Cardinals farts enough gold dust to pay for all this quite handily. Whoever runs the Catholic scheme in France would do well to get ahead of the potential bitterness and earmark excess funds for other equally pressing needs.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:12 pm

I would suggest you start by taking care of the homeless in your countries first :)
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17285
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:19 pm

Olddog wrote:
I just read that the rosaces de vitraux (stained glass rosette acording to google) from the XIIIe century survived. It is a small miracle if it is true.

And already 600 millions euros collected for the repairs....

Insane...the catholic church has a zillion dollars and within 24 hours people are throwing money at it. Not surprising.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2922
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:21 pm

Here is a good and moderately technical report on the status of the building and its reconstruction.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/notr ... ts-n995311

And a bit of technical data. There still is some worry about collapse of the building. The wall are buttressed by those famous flying stone structures which are meant to balance the very heavy wood and lead roof structure and its 'outward' forces - which has burned, fallen, and no longer there. The building stands now out of balance. Worrisome. My observations are limited and to be taken as a quick overview. Watch for structural engineers to provide a more detailed and accurate account of this.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Notre Dame de Paris is owned by the French state, not catholic church. More it is classified as an Historical building since 1862. So in all cases all the repairs costs are on the state.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17285
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:41 pm

Olddog wrote:
Notre Dame de Paris is owned by the French state, not catholic church. More it is classified as an Historical building since 1862. So in all cases all the repairs costs are on the state.

So? What prevents the catholic church from "donating" money to fix it?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:49 pm

But they are free to give money, and I bet that a lot of donors are catholics. But keep in mind that in France, all religious buildings built before 1905 are state owned. Since then 1886 new religious buildings were build and are owned by various organizations, towns or diocesan associations.
As an example Ajaccio Cathedral is owned by the Corsican assembly.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2527
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:18 pm

ltbewr wrote:
While Notre Dame has no roof for now, how many 1000's of persons in Paris alone don't have a roof over them, living in the streets, in sub-standard housing or in distant suburbs as can't afford housing closer to their work. Why are some many very rich persons and corporations in France willing to put up 100's of Millions of Euros to restore this cathedral but don't pay many of their workers a living wage ?

France has one of the highest minimum wages in the world and it's impossible to fire anyone there. That their unemployment rate remains chronically high is fodder for a whole different discussion. No offense, but I don't think you know what you're talking about here.
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A fire has broken out at the famous Notre-Dame cathedral in Paris, firefighters say.

The cause is not yet clear, but officials say it could be linked to renovation work.

Images on social media show plumes of smoke billowing into the air above the the 850-year-old Gothic building.

Last year, the Catholic Church in France launched an urgent appeal for funds to s
ave the cathedral, which was starting to crumble.

A major operation is under way to tackle the blaze, which broke out on Monday afternoon, and an area surrounding the building in central Paris has been cleared, officials said.


Source

Image

It would be such a shame if they aren't able to save it. Bonne change!


Reminds me a bit of the fire at the Utrecht Conservatory. The entire building burned down except the outer walls. Hundreds of musical instruments were lost.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:18 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A fire has broken out at the famous Notre-Dame cathedral in Paris, firefighters say.

The cause is not yet clear, but officials say it could be linked to renovation work.

Images on social media show plumes of smoke billowing into the air above the the 850-year-old Gothic building.

Last year, the Catholic Church in France launched an urgent appeal for funds to s
ave the cathedral, which was starting to crumble.

A major operation is under way to tackle the blaze, which broke out on Monday afternoon, and an area surrounding the building in central Paris has been cleared, officials said.


Source

Image

It would be such a shame if they aren't able to save it. Bonne change!


Reminds me a bit of the fire at the Utrecht Conservatory. The entire building burned down except the outer walls. Hundreds of musical instruments were lost.


Didn't know about this, 12 march 1988, a bit too young to be consious about these kind of things.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
wingman
Posts: 3694
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:49 pm

Olddog wrote:
I would suggest you start by taking care of the homeless in your countries first :)


We don't have homeless in the Seychelles, we're just hanging out at the beach 24/7, that's all. I'm not intimating in any way that another country is "better" than France at dealing with the homeless issue, I'm simply expressing an opinion about how this will devolve in the coming weeks and months.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 1889
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:13 pm

Islamic Minaret Should Replace Notre Dame Spire, Says Architecture Expert

https://www.infowars.com/islamic-minare ... re-expert/

Writing in Domus, Tom Wilkinson, history editor of the Architectural Review, argues that the rebuild is an opportunity to communicate a message of political correctness. According to Wilkinson, it could also include replacing the church’s perished 200 year old spire with an Islamic minaret.

“What about the approximately 100 Algerians who were killed by the French police while protesting the Algerian War in 1961, many of them thrown into the Seine at the foot of Notre-Dame?” he writes.

Well, what changes are gong to be added to mosques to memorialize the hundreds slain by Islamic Jihad Terror forces??
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
LMP737
Posts: 5898
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:02 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Islamic Minaret Should Replace Notre Dame Spire, Says Architecture Expert

https://www.infowars.com/islamic-minare ... re-expert/

Writing in Domus, Tom Wilkinson, history editor of the Architectural Review, argues that the rebuild is an opportunity to communicate a message of political correctness. According to Wilkinson, it could also include replacing the church’s perished 200 year old spire with an Islamic minaret.

“What about the approximately 100 Algerians who were killed by the French police while protesting the Algerian War in 1961, many of them thrown into the Seine at the foot of Notre-Dame?” he writes.

Well, what changes are gong to be added to mosques to memorialize the hundreds slain by Islamic Jihad Terror forces??


Infowars, news source for half wits.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 1889
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:51 am

I have read the article in Domus, and I was duped by the Inforwars article. What was said in the Domas article was clearly sarcasm. I regret that I posted the Infowars article..

Here is the link to the Domus article https://www.domusweb.it/en/opinion/2019 ... swers.html
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11525
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:11 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Reminds me a bit of the fire at the Utrecht Conservatory. The entire building burned down except the outer walls. Hundreds of musical instruments were lost.


The cathedral is made of stone, aside from the wooden roof there was nothing else to burn.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11525
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:22 am

ltbewr wrote:
While Notre Dame has no roof for now, how many 1000's of persons in Paris alone don't have a roof over them, living in the streets, in sub-standard housing or in distant suburbs as can't afford housing closer to their work. Why are some many very rich persons and corporations in France willing to put up 100's of Millions of Euros to restore this cathedral but don't pay many of their workers a living wage ?


There are many reasons why real estate in Paris is very expensive, one of them is that enough people are earning enough money to be able to afford such prices. I live and work in the suburbs, and wouldn't take a job in Paris unless it included a big salary bump, otherwise it's not worth it to me.

As for homeless people, few of them are actually working. If they are working then they can get access to affordable housing.

ltbewr wrote:
Much of the roof structure was of very old oak timbers that cannot be found easily or cheaply today and would remove too many old growth trees to do so.


France has huge forests of old oaks, including centuries old ones that were planted for future use as tall ships masts, so providing the wood would be no problem. Getting it ready in a couple of years is another story, as usually it takes a lot of time to dry after being cut down. The original wooden structure, called "the forest" didn't use high quality wood, as that wasn't really mastered at the time, so it would be possible to use less wood of better quality. Personally I could be convinced it would be better to use metal, but that's just me.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2922
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:56 pm

I suspect that however the roof is rebuilt it will include fire breaks, better sensors, and a sprinkling system. If wood is available it could be used. After the Great Seattle Fire wood buildings were replaced by masonry/wood 1889. Strict codes were devised and enforced. No building has been destroyed by fire subsequently. (earthquakes are now seen as the most serious problem)
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 1889
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:06 pm

Solar panels on the new roof would be a nice touch.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14103
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:55 am

Apparently a new, and possibly costly and hazardous problem with the fire - lead poisoning and illnesses. The Cathedral Notre Dame used huge amounts of lead in many of the destroyed area and dusts from the fires could have carried the toxic stuff in the area around it:
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Lea ... 800521.php
 
User avatar
T18
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sat May 11, 2019 1:28 am

Seems one of the early propositions for rebuilding Notre Dame is hitting the news. Just saw this - https://www.cnn.com/style/article/franc ... index.html
I'm kinda split, it's very cool and an example of great sustainable ideas that we need more of to make our cities more livable imo, just not sure how I feel about making such a drastic change to a site as Notre Dame.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2922
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sat May 11, 2019 1:54 pm

Engineers and architects will be figuring just how heavy the roof structure needs to be. Those flying buttresses are designed to counter certain forces and a certain roof weight may be essential. It is in keeping with the 'spirit' of Gothic cathedrals that restorations can or should reflect the spirit of the time in which they are done. I could imagine a dull gray windowing over a steel structure as an effective replacement for that wood and lead. It would be a spectacular place to visit.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
alfa164
Posts: 2877
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sun May 12, 2019 1:31 am

T18 wrote:
Seems one of the early propositions for rebuilding Notre Dame is hitting the news. Just saw this - https://www.cnn.com/style/article/franc ... index.html I'm kinda split, it's very cool and an example of great sustainable ideas that we need more of to make our cities more livable imo, just not sure how I feel about making such a drastic change to a site as Notre Dame.


That is an interesting proposal. The cathedral had has been modified, rebuilt, added-onto, and restored many times over since its initial construction began in 1163; the famous spire that collapsed in the fire was built in the mid-19th Century. There would be no sacrilege to changing the upper structure, although I wonder if the proposal, as drawn, might be a little too "gaudy" (ironic that it rhymes with "Gaudi", whose works certainly are even more dramatic) for the church.

It is certainly a good starting-point for the conversation - and might be the basis of a new concept that would serve Notre Dame well into the next 900 years.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14103
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sun May 12, 2019 3:01 am

I don't know how practical or costly the 'farm' part would be, but the idea of a 'glass' roof and spire with energy efficient construction would be very much in line with the spirit of the original structure and modern times.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sun May 12, 2019 8:48 am

What about you listen to what the french would like instead of theses stupids architects vanity projects ?

And french mostly would like Notre-Dame to be rebuilt as close as it was before the fire that is possible.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2877
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sun May 12, 2019 4:25 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I don't know how practical or costly the 'farm' part would be, but the idea of a 'glass' roof and spire with energy efficient construction would be very much in line with the spirit of the original structure and modern times.


:checkmark:


Olddog wrote:
What about you listen to what the french would like instead of theses stupids architects vanity projects ? And french mostly would like Notre-Dame to be rebuilt as close as it was before the fire that is possible.


We are listening to the French; in fact, the architect making the proposal is, himself, French.

Perhaps you failed to read the article:

"In April, French Prime Minister Edouard Philippe announced an international competition for architects to redesign the cathedral's 19th century spire, which collapsed after a fire devastated the 850-year-old Gothic landmark. Paris firm Vincent Callebaut Architectures responded to the call with an innovative, eco-friendly design that supports the local population and produces more energy than it uses."

Maybe "the french" would like it to be rebuilt "as close as it was before the fire"... or as close as it was when it was built in the 12th Century... or as close as it was when the transepts were remodeled in the mid-13th Century... or even later, after the flying buttresses were added... or before the new spire was added in the 1850's.

The Cathedral has never been a static style; it has morphed and changed constantly over the past 900 years. Nostalgia aside, it will continue to change - we know it must become more fireproof - and, while some observers may be stuck strictly in the past, it will continue to change. Different "stupid architects" who made changes in the 13th, and 17th, and 19th, and 20th Centuries gave us the building we saw burning, and others will be required to make changes in the coming years.
.

By the way, "the french" would probably prefer to be referred to as "the French"... if you really want to share their concerns and gain their respect...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11525
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Sun May 12, 2019 4:58 pm

Personally I didn't like the spire before the fire. I didn't imagine it being removed or lost like it was, but I can't say I regret it. That proposal glass structure looks striking. The garden idea is another story, you still have a millenia old building beneath, it doesn't seem like a good idea to put a garden on top.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Jalap
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue May 14, 2019 4:51 pm

Any people here who think that the “no rebuild” is a viable option?

Do all the work needed to make it a ruin that will survive for thousands of years to come. Preserve the memory of the great building it once was. I believe this is the most respectfull way for the cathedral. If you rebuild, you’ll have little more than a replica. In 100 years, people will visit the cathedral and say “it has the original walls”... .

Preserve the real thing and use the donators’ money to build an all new landmark cathedral in Paris. One that should also survive for thousands of years to come.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9186
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue May 14, 2019 9:03 pm

Jalap wrote:
Any people here who think that the “no rebuild” is a viable option?

Do all the work needed to make it a ruin that will survive for thousands of years to come. Preserve the memory of the great building it once was. I believe this is the most respectfull way for the cathedral. If you rebuild, you’ll have little more than a replica. In 100 years, people will visit the cathedral and say “it has the original walls”... .

Preserve the real thing and use the donators’ money to build an all new landmark cathedral in Paris. One that should also survive for thousands of years to come.

Then they would have to tear down a good portion of it as it has been "rebuilt" and reinforced and fixed and adjusted many times over its storied history.

I say rebuild, fix, and improve. Keep using it and letting it be useful (versus a historic artifact).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
TSS
Posts: 3118
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue May 14, 2019 9:04 pm

Jalap wrote:
Any people here who think that the “no rebuild” is a viable option?

No. Go back and read Alfa164's most recent post on this subject. Notre Dame has been rebuilt and added on to numerous times over its history. This will be one more time.

Jalap wrote:
Do all the work needed to make it a ruin that will survive for thousands of years to come. Preserve the memory of the great building it once was. I believe this is the most respectfull way for the cathedral.

I would say deliberately turning a perfectly good and world-renowned cathedral into a ruin just because it needs a new roof is the most disrespectful way to handle this. This isn't some particleboard paradise McMansion tract house that differs only in siding choice and window arrangement from the 500 other homes in the Tasty Meadows subdivision, this is Notre Dame cathedral, one of if not the finest and most exuberantly detailed examples of cathedral architecture in all of Europe.

Jalap wrote:
If you rebuild, you’ll have little more than a replica. In 100 years, people will visit the cathedral and say “it has the original walls”… .

No, in a hundred years they'll say "After a fire destroyed the old roof in early 2019, a new and much more fire-resistant one was installed in the early 2020s".

Jalap wrote:
Preserve the real thing and use the donators’ money to build an all new landmark cathedral in Paris. One that should also survive for thousands of years to come.

Try that and watch the lawsuits start rolling in. People donated money for the repair and restoration of the current Notre Dame cathedral, not for Paris to build a new and different one.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue May 14, 2019 9:19 pm

TSS wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Any people here who think that the “no rebuild” is a viable option?

No. Go back and read Alfa164's most recent post on this subject. Notre Dame has been rebuilt and added on to numerous times over its history. This will be one more time.


People seem to forget that these aren't static monuments, but are living buildings in the sense that more is added and sometimes parts are torn down. It is just that architecture has changed quite a lot since 1900, and as with everything, things are changing more rapidly. So I think making the roof a piece of our current times is perfectly fitting to this monument.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jalap
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Tue May 14, 2019 10:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
People seem to forget that these aren't static monuments, but are living buildings in the sense that more is added and sometimes parts are torn down. It is just that architecture has changed quite a lot since 1900, and as with everything, things are changing more rapidly. So I think making the roof a piece of our current times is perfectly fitting to this monument.

It feels a bit as a contradiction to state that a monument can also be living. A monument should be preserved exactly the way it it, with a living building you can do anything you want.

And yes, modifications have been made through the centuries. But I think nowadays we've got more respect for our heritage than our ancestors did.

With the reasoning that it's a living building, you can also go on and build contemporary spires on the 2 towers. Had the stained glass windows been destroyed would you have wanted them resored, or replaced by something of our current times?
Had there been no fire, would it be okay to demolish the roof and spire to build something contemporary?

I think we have to be very carefull with our hertitage, because at some point, it stops being heritage.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed May 15, 2019 11:52 am

Sorry I did not follow more closely this thread. As I said, the frenchs were polled and a huge majorjty was for rebuilding as it was.

The fact that architects, even french architects, are posting various project is just due to the vested interest hey have in the advertising and money they hope to get.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed May 15, 2019 1:14 pm

Jalap wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
People seem to forget that these aren't static monuments, but are living buildings in the sense that more is added and sometimes parts are torn down. It is just that architecture has changed quite a lot since 1900, and as with everything, things are changing more rapidly. So I think making the roof a piece of our current times is perfectly fitting to this monument.

It feels a bit as a contradiction to state that a monument can also be living. A monument should be preserved exactly the way it it, with a living building you can do anything you want.

And yes, modifications have been made through the centuries. But I think nowadays we've got more respect for our heritage than our ancestors did.

With the reasoning that it's a living building, you can also go on and build contemporary spires on the 2 towers. Had the stained glass windows been destroyed would you have wanted them resored, or replaced by something of our current times?
Had there been no fire, would it be okay to demolish the roof and spire to build something contemporary?

I think we have to be very carefull with our hertitage, because at some point, it stops being heritage.


You have to indeed be careful with the heritage, but you also have to be careful that your city isn't going to be a museum. You can do alot to modernize a building, with respect for the heritage: Musée d'Orsay, train station turned into a museum or the Louvre with its pyramids, two very nice examples in Paris.
Of course this "renovation" is mandatory, but I sincerely hope that they will create something spectacular modern with respect for the historical surroundings/building. Just rebuilding what was lost is just leaving the building frozen in a particular timeframe.

I think we are both concerned about protecting our heritage, but expressing that in a different way.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11525
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Notre-Dame cathedral on fire in Paris

Wed May 15, 2019 4:01 pm

A modern church already exists in Paris, the Sacré-Cœur. With the current left-wing leanings of Paris, a new one would never be built, in fact there is a greater probability that the Sacré-Cœur would be razed, as it was built specifically as a symbol of conservatism, against socialism !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: B777LRF, BlueberryWheats, hoons90, LJ, Scorpio and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos