mham001
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Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:51 am

In a twist, Trudeau's government has requested a change in terms to slow the flow of asylum seekers in to Canada from the US. Seems election season is coming around and he needs to appear to care about the country's integrity. No, they are not US citizens fleeing.

Canada has made a formal request to the United States to amend a 15-year-old border treaty between the countries. A spokeswoman for the State Department declined to provide details, saying the department does not “discuss internal and interagency deliberations.”

The idea behind the treaty, known as the Safe Third Country Agreement, is that Canada and the United States are equally open to refugees.

Under the terms of the deal, which took effect in 2004, asylum seekers who try to enter Canada at an official border crossing are sent back to the United States. But there’s a loophole: Those who cross the border at an unauthorized point of entry can proceed into Canada and file their claim.

One Canadian proposal would close that loophole: An asylum seeker who entered at an unofficial crossing would be escorted to an official port of entry and bounced back to the United States.

“Irregular” entries, as Canada calls them, have also increased. About 40,000 people have entered at Roxham Road and other unauthorized crossings in the last two years.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/th ... 4c692e25bb

I'm thinking Trump will decline or at least make him sweat, letting them flow through to Canada takes some pressure off the US courts.
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:39 am

Donald Trump is significantly more popular in the U.S. than Trudeau is in Canada. Yes, you read that correctly: Donald Trump is noticeably more popular than Justin Trudeau.

He may not even make it to the next election.
 
alfa164
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:00 am

Magog wrote:
Donald Trump is significantly more popular in the U.S. than Trudeau is in Canada. Yes, you read that correctly: Donald Trump is noticeably more popular than Justin Trudeau. He may not even make it to the next election.


So tell us... exactly how would he be ousted without an election? Are you proposing an armed coup?
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ThePointblank
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:55 am

alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Donald Trump is significantly more popular in the U.S. than Trudeau is in Canada. Yes, you read that correctly: Donald Trump is noticeably more popular than Justin Trudeau. He may not even make it to the next election.


So tell us... exactly how would he be ousted without an election? Are you proposing an armed coup?

The Prime Minister is usually the head of the political party with the most seats in the House of Commons.

And the head of the party can be replaced at any time if there is enough Members of Parliament from that party wanting to challenge the leader of the party for leadership of a party through a party leadership review.

Also remember that the Prime Minister serves at her Majesty's pleasure; the Queen, through her representative in the Governor General, could dismiss the Prime Minister if she so chooses.
 
Redd
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:14 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Also remember that the Prime Minister serves at her Majesty's pleasure; the Queen, through her representative in the Governor General, could dismiss the Prime Minister if she so chooses.


The GG's powers are basically ceremonial, almost no chance the GG would dismiss a Prime Minister these days. I'd wager to day no chance at all. The Queen couldn't get the decor changed in a waiting room in
Parliament, let alone dismiss a Prime Minister. She has no (real) power in Canada.
Last edited by Redd on Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DL717
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:19 am

mham001 wrote:
In a twist, Trudeau's government has requested a change in terms to slow the flow of asylum seekers in to Canada from the US. Seems election season is coming around and he needs to appear to care about the country's integrity. No, they are not US citizens fleeing.

Canada has made a formal request to the United States to amend a 15-year-old border treaty between the countries. A spokeswoman for the State Department declined to provide details, saying the department does not “discuss internal and interagency deliberations.”

The idea behind the treaty, known as the Safe Third Country Agreement, is that Canada and the United States are equally open to refugees.

Under the terms of the deal, which took effect in 2004, asylum seekers who try to enter Canada at an official border crossing are sent back to the United States. But there’s a loophole: Those who cross the border at an unauthorized point of entry can proceed into Canada and file their claim.

One Canadian proposal would close that loophole: An asylum seeker who entered at an unofficial crossing would be escorted to an official port of entry and bounced back to the United States.

“Irregular” entries, as Canada calls them, have also increased. About 40,000 people have entered at Roxham Road and other unauthorized crossings in the last two years.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/th ... 4c692e25bb

I'm thinking Trump will decline or at least make him sweat, letting them flow through to Canada takes some pressure off the US courts.


I thought for a moment Hollywood had finally packed up the moving vans like the promised.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 am

alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Donald Trump is significantly more popular in the U.S. than Trudeau is in Canada. Yes, you read that correctly: Donald Trump is noticeably more popular than Justin Trudeau. He may not even make it to the next election.


So tell us... exactly how would he be ousted without an election? Are you proposing an armed coup?

Uh... no. I was thinking that his party would vote to replace him. Canadians aren’t exactly known for armed coups.
 
emperortk
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:15 am

Trudeau should promise to build a border wall and make the US pay for it. That will get the simpletons on board.
 
DenimAndLeather
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:49 am

DL717 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
In a twist, Trudeau's government has requested a change in terms to slow the flow of asylum seekers in to Canada from the US. Seems election season is coming around and he needs to appear to care about the country's integrity. No, they are not US citizens fleeing.

Canada has made a formal request to the United States to amend a 15-year-old border treaty between the countries. A spokeswoman for the State Department declined to provide details, saying the department does not “discuss internal and interagency deliberations.”

The idea behind the treaty, known as the Safe Third Country Agreement, is that Canada and the United States are equally open to refugees.

Under the terms of the deal, which took effect in 2004, asylum seekers who try to enter Canada at an official border crossing are sent back to the United States. But there’s a loophole: Those who cross the border at an unauthorized point of entry can proceed into Canada and file their claim.

One Canadian proposal would close that loophole: An asylum seeker who entered at an unofficial crossing would be escorted to an official port of entry and bounced back to the United States.

“Irregular” entries, as Canada calls them, have also increased. About 40,000 people have entered at Roxham Road and other unauthorized crossings in the last two years.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/th ... 4c692e25bb

I'm thinking Trump will decline or at least make him sweat, letting them flow through to Canada takes some pressure off the US courts.


I thought for a moment Hollywood had finally packed up the moving vans like the promised.


What exactly is “like the promised”?
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:50 am

LOL!
Trudeau was all over the news during the refugee crisis in Europe (which continues despite falling off the medias' radar) sanctimoniously imploring countries to take up more and more immigrants.
Classic case of illegal immigrants for thee but not for me.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:34 am

P1aneMad wrote:
LOL!
Trudeau was all over the news during the refugee crisis in Europe (which continues despite falling off the medias' radar) sanctimoniously imploring countries to take up more and more immigrants.
Classic case of illegal immigrants for thee but not for me.


It's not just Trudeau the liberals and liberal politicians of all flavors love to spout the BS and tell everyone else how to live like the green new deal/climate change or the border wall but these same sanctimonious liberals never practice the same virtues in their own lives most of them have a wall around their properties and Al Gore and the rest flying around on their personal jets as an example..It's the do as I say not as I do crowd.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:08 pm

Redd wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Also remember that the Prime Minister serves at her Majesty's pleasure; the Queen, through her representative in the Governor General, could dismiss the Prime Minister if she so chooses.


The GG's powers are basically ceremonial, almost no chance the GG would dismiss a Prime Minister these days. I'd wager to day no chance at all. The Queen couldn't get the decor changed in a waiting room in
Parliament, let alone dismiss a Prime Minister. She has no (real) power in Canada.


Does the name Gough Whitlam ring a bell? Not Canada, but.......

GF
 
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stl07
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:58 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
LOL!
Trudeau was all over the news during the refugee crisis in Europe (which continues despite falling off the medias' radar) sanctimoniously imploring countries to take up more and more immigrants.
Classic case of illegal immigrants for thee but not for me.

Refugees are NOT illegal immigrants, for the nth time. STOP sounding like the media and populist politicians and gain some credibility by researching the very large difference between the two.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:04 am

stratosphere wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
LOL!
Trudeau was all over the news during the refugee crisis in Europe (which continues despite falling off the medias' radar) sanctimoniously imploring countries to take up more and more immigrants.
Classic case of illegal immigrants for thee but not for me.


It's not just Trudeau the liberals and liberal politicians of all flavors love to spout the BS and tell everyone else how to live like the green new deal/climate change or the border wall but these same sanctimonious liberals never practice the same virtues in their own lives most of them have a wall around their properties and Al Gore and the rest flying around on their personal jets as an example..It's the do as I say not as I do crowd.


Did he call immigrants rapists? Or hire illegal immigrants while railing against them? Or separate children from their parents and put them in cages for entertainment? Or close foreign immigration offices? Or reduce legal immigration to as close to zero as possible? Or ban people from an entire religion? Or have his daughter slap her name on Chinese made garbage while railing against China? Or portray immigrants as people that were sullying the country, or changing the face of the country, or call them animals, or god knows what else? Did he rail against them while his family farm in Iowa could not function without illegal immigrants? Or deny immigrants from "sh!t holes" like Africa and Haiti in favor of Norwegians? No? Weird. But congrats on the self congratulatory frothing! You ain't foolin' anyone.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
stratosphere
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:52 am

stl07 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
LOL!
Trudeau was all over the news during the refugee crisis in Europe (which continues despite falling off the medias' radar) sanctimoniously imploring countries to take up more and more immigrants.
Classic case of illegal immigrants for thee but not for me.

Refugees are NOT illegal immigrants, for the nth time. STOP sounding like the media and populist politicians and gain some credibility by researching the very large difference between the two.


90% of them are illegals..They are playing the system and liberal US lawyers are helping them to say just the right things to get what they want. So we spend a ton of money to sort it out and in the mean time they are eventually released will we see them again? Maybe maybe not. I have sympathy for people who are escaping poverty but how many can we absorb in the world who need a better life? We for sure offer incentives to come here so in that regard I don't blame them. I just want to slap the shit out of Justin who wants to condemn us and other nations but won't put his money where his mouth is.
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:56 am

As much as I favor generous immigration policies, only the most naive of us believes that the asylum process is not routinely abused. I don’t like when that happens because it makes people skeptical of legitimate cases.
 
Redd
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not Canada

GF


It's not Canada, and things have changed quite a bit since the 70's.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:40 am

stl07 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
LOL!
Trudeau was all over the news during the refugee crisis in Europe (which continues despite falling off the medias' radar) sanctimoniously imploring countries to take up more and more immigrants.
Classic case of illegal immigrants for thee but not for me.

Refugees are NOT illegal immigrants, for the nth time. STOP sounding like the media and populist politicians and gain some credibility by researching the very large difference between the two.

When you cross five or six countries to reach the one that offers the most benefits you are an immigrant.
When you leave an active warzone to get to safety in a neighboring country you are a refugee.
For Syrians that would be Jordan, Lebanon or Turkey. But the vast majority of people currently invading Europe are not Syrians, they are just using that war to migrate to the western country of their choice.
And definitely Latin Americans try to reach Canada are not refugees either.
Last edited by P1aneMad on Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Redd
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:41 am

Magog wrote:
As much as I favor generous immigration policies, only the most naive of us believes that the asylum process is not routinely abused. I don’t like when that happens because it makes people skeptical of legitimate cases.
:checkmark:

Definition of asylum seeker:

An asylum seeker is a person who flees their home country, enters another country and applies for asylum, i.e. the right to international protection, in this other country. An asylum seeker is a type of migrant and may be a refugee, a displaced person, but not an economic migrant.


Probably the vast majority of asylum seekers are just economic migrants, ignoring the legal immigration channels.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:48 am

stratosphere wrote:
90% of them are illegals.


87.45% of 'statistics' are made up on the spot.

I'm sure you have multiple, reliable sources for your number, though.
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KentB27
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:51 am

stratosphere wrote:
It's not just Trudeau the liberals and liberal politicians of all flavors love to spout the BS and tell everyone else how to live like the green new deal/climate change or the border wall but these same sanctimonious liberals never practice the same virtues in their own lives most of them have a wall around their properties and Al Gore and the rest flying around on their personal jets as an example..It's the do as I say not as I do crowd.



Exactly. I wonder how most bleeding heart liberals would feel about refugees if they were forced to offer a spare room to them in their own home. I can guarantee you a lot of them would change their tune if that were the case.
 
golfradio
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:46 pm

Asylum seekers and refugees are expected to enter Canada through regular ports of entry. Humanitarian refugees like Syrians are processed in the various camps wherever they are displaced. The majority of the border-crossers at the U.S border are illegal immigrants (yes, they are illegally entering from an illegal port of entry). They are not refugees but are economic immigrants. They hold valid visitor visas to the U.S., fly international airlines and drive down to the illegal border crossing. There is a whole pipeline set up including runners who drop them at the crossing as regular fares. This is a well known and abused loophole. Canada is under no obligation to let them in.

Here is a documentary that explains the illegal pipeline going both ways

Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CArjX-gzi5o
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4pweuAv-u0
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
wingman
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:47 pm

Redd wrote:
Probably the vast majority of asylum seekers are just economic migrants, ignoring the legal immigration channels.


It's an interesting point. In the case of immigration to the US, you could take a highly educated Indian software immigrant and compare that person's process and true rationale for emigrating to a family of four from Honduras that has the same ultimate intent, that being to "make it to the United States". Vijay will do it legally and it'll cost him tens of thousands of dollars and take 10 years of processing. In all that time Vijay could quite easily have found work in Mumbai or Bangalore and started a family (mom and dad would've have been very happy, no Desi's in the family!).

Jose and Maria and the two toddlers though..all around them in the hood in Tegucigalpa people are being murdered daily and the neighbor's 14 year old son was just shot in the head yesterday, the fourth murder in their barrio this month. So you have to understand their mindset to understand the motivation to "make it to the US". I don't think anyone with an ounce of empathy could look at this family and Vijay and say these are two cases of economic migration and one is legal and the other isn't. Jose and Maria don't have the options in Honduras to live free of fear and raise a family with good jobs the way Vijay does in India. Vijay's motivation is to work, compete and succeed in the most competitive and highest paying tech market on the planet. He wants to go home every year and show his parents what he's made of and hope they're proud of him and his new family. He'll buy them a big house some day.

Jose and Maria don't want to die, and more importantly they don't want their kids to die. They'll walk 2000 miles to escape death from US-made handguns purchased with US cocaine dollars by vicious drug gangs like MS-13. Are they economic migrants or refugees? I bet if you subject Maria to chemical interrogation her reasons for walking to the US probably match EXACTLY the reasons why Mubarak and his family want to get to Europe from Syria. Label it whatever you want, they just don't see any other way of surviving and protecting their children from death than getting out of their own countries.

So what's the solution? For me, I want as many Vijay's as I can possibly get into this country. He's a core element of our future success and ability to compete in the league of advanced nations for the next 100 years. We have a process for him but let's be honest, it's completely broken. Both parties agree and yet still no bipartisan action for 20 years now to address it. And as liberal as I am I don't want every Jose and Maria to just walk into this country. But we must have a way of processing them too. I think they and many like them are really mislabeled refugees, and no wall will ever stop the desire or flow towards the southern border so long as their home country is riven with such death and violence. But the country does need a certain amount of their kind too, they are the lifeblood at the very bottom of the economic order that feeds, cleans and keeps our neighborhoods looking tidy. And maybe someday little Jose and little Maria will grow up and go to MIT and change the world. We need a viable process for them too, it's not just a wall, more important than that is a functional and realistic process to get them here legally. That process doesn't exist today. We need to fix that just as badly as we need to fix it for Vijay.
 
Redd
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:59 pm

wingman wrote:
We have a process for him but let's be honest, it's completely broken. Both parties agree and yet still no bipartisan action for 20 years now to address it. And as liberal as I am I don't want every Jose and Maria to just walk into this country. .


You mention the point that I've been discussing for a long time now. The process. Speaking about the EU now, the legal route is often too difficult and expensive, and the illegal route brings in way too many migrants, more than governments can properly handle and process. It's a lose lose situation.

The process needs to be fixed and we need a way to ensure that new migrants become a productive part of society, give them the proper support, education and opportunities. But we also need to make sure that if they don't fulfill their end, then they have to go back. I don't think any country needs more people living off of their systems.

The problem is in the dialogue. Most conservatives say NO IMMIGRATION, most liberals say LETS LET EVERYONE IN.... Both approaches are idiotic and detrimental. The answer, like with most issues lies somewhere in the middle and both sides need to sit down and have a proper discussion. But that doesn't seem possible in today's heated climate.

But all of that is just a short term solution, we need to be helping these countries become more successful and better places to live with more opportunities, as long as some countries are poor, and some countries are rich, this immigration issue will forever be a problem. I don't think that the level of income has to be as high as Norway, or the USA to keep people in their native homes, take Poland as an example. Until recently educated and uneducated citizens were fleeing the country in search of better incomes and possibilities. Now a days, you hardly hear of anyone wanting to leave. We're not on par with the wealthier countries but even a 2000 euro/month salary gives people a very comfortable life here, and with the freedom to travel anywhere, that seems to be more then enough to keep people in their native countries.
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:19 pm

Redd wrote:
Most conservatives say NO IMMIGRATION, most liberals say LETS LET EVERYONE IN.....

The former is not true. I’ve yet to hear a conservative say that legal mechanisms of immigration should be ended. The latter is the position of some liberals, but not all. But, yes, your point has some truth in that liberals tend to be much more accepting of illegal immigration.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:23 pm

Magog wrote:
Redd wrote:
Most conservatives say NO IMMIGRATION, most liberals say LETS LET EVERYONE IN.....

The former is not true. I’ve yet to hear a conservative say that legal mechanisms of immigration should be ended.

The Muslim ban was what, exactly, then? Or closing the southern border? Or lowering legal refugees down to zero?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:31 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Redd wrote:
Most conservatives say NO IMMIGRATION, most liberals say LETS LET EVERYONE IN.....

The former is not true. I’ve yet to hear a conservative say that legal mechanisms of immigration should be ended.

The Muslim ban was what, exactly, then? Or closing the southern border? Or lowering legal refugees down to zero?

None of those are an example of a conservative calling for an end to all forms of legal immigration. Which was my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:40 pm

Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
The former is not true. I’ve yet to hear a conservative say that legal mechanisms of immigration should be ended.

The Muslim ban was what, exactly, then? Or closing the southern border? Or lowering legal refugees down to zero?

None of those are an example of a conservative calling for an end to all forms of legal immigration. Which was my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

Just entire categories of people they don't like. Got it :checkmark:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:43 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
The Muslim ban was what, exactly, then? Or closing the southern border? Or lowering legal refugees down to zero?

None of those are an example of a conservative calling for an end to all forms of legal immigration. Which was my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

Just entire categories of people they don't like. Got it :checkmark:

Okay, that’s not true. Take the Muslim ban for example. What did it affect, something like only 5% of the world’s Muslim population? Enough with the gratuitous hyperbole. It doesn’t further meaningful discussion.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:45 pm

Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
None of those are an example of a conservative calling for an end to all forms of legal immigration. Which was my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

Just entire categories of people they don't like. Got it :checkmark:

Okay, that’s not true. Take the Muslim ban for example. What did it affect, something like only 5% of the world’s Muslim population? Enough with the gratuitous hyperbole. It doesn’t further meaningful discussion.

In it's ultimate form after many challenges and rewrites? Yes. But originally it was all Muslims, and that was largely supported by you and your conservative buddies.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:52 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Just entire categories of people they don't like. Got it :checkmark:

Okay, that’s not true. Take the Muslim ban for example. What did it affect, something like only 5% of the world’s Muslim population? Enough with the gratuitous hyperbole. It doesn’t further meaningful discussion.

In it's ultimate form after many challenges and rewrites? Yes. But originally it was all Muslims, and that was largely supported by you and your conservative buddies.

It was never all Muslims. Please be correct with the facts.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:58 pm

Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Okay, that’s not true. Take the Muslim ban for example. What did it affect, something like only 5% of the world’s Muslim population? Enough with the gratuitous hyperbole. It doesn’t further meaningful discussion.

In it's ultimate form after many challenges and rewrites? Yes. But originally it was all Muslims, and that was largely supported by you and your conservative buddies.

It was never all Muslims. Please be correct with the facts.


“Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Magog
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:05 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
In it's ultimate form after many challenges and rewrites? Yes. But originally it was all Muslims, and that was largely supported by you and your conservative buddies.

It was never all Muslims. Please be correct with the facts.


“Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”

Fair enough, although he never acted on it.
 
Redd
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:05 pm

Magog wrote:
Redd wrote:
Most conservatives say NO IMMIGRATION, most liberals say LETS LET EVERYONE IN.....

The former is not true..

Through my job I get to speak to huge amounts of people. In my extensive experience it's mostly true. What I see in the media largely reflects that as well. So it's not, not true.
 
mham001
Topic Author
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Re: Canada Requests Help Securing Its Southern Border

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:10 pm

wingman wrote:
Redd wrote:
Probably the vast majority of asylum seekers are just economic migrants, ignoring the legal immigration channels.


It's an interesting point. In the case of immigration to the US, you could take a highly educated Indian software immigrant and compare that person's process and true rationale for emigrating to a family of four from Honduras that has the same ultimate intent, that being to "make it to the United States". Vijay will do it legally and it'll cost him tens of thousands of dollars and take 10 years of processing. In all that time Vijay could quite easily have found work in Mumbai or Bangalore and started a family (mom and dad would've have been very happy, no Desi's in the family!).

Jose and Maria and the two toddlers though..all around them in the hood in Tegucigalpa people are being murdered daily and the neighbor's 14 year old son was just shot in the head yesterday, the fourth murder in their barrio this month. So you have to understand their mindset to understand the motivation to "make it to the US". I don't think anyone with an ounce of empathy could look at this family and Vijay and say these are two cases of economic migration and one is legal and the other isn't. Jose and Maria don't have the options in Honduras to live free of fear and raise a family with good jobs the way Vijay does in India. Vijay's motivation is to work, compete and succeed in the most competitive and highest paying tech market on the planet. He wants to go home every year and show his parents what he's made of and hope they're proud of him and his new family. He'll buy them a big house some day.

Jose and Maria don't want to die, and more importantly they don't want their kids to die. They'll walk 2000 miles to escape death from US-made handguns purchased with US cocaine dollars by vicious drug gangs like MS-13. Are they economic migrants or refugees? I bet if you subject Maria to chemical interrogation her reasons for walking to the US probably match EXACTLY the reasons why Mubarak and his family want to get to Europe from Syria. Label it whatever you want, they just don't see any other way of surviving and protecting their children from death than getting out of their own countries.

So what's the solution? For me, I want as many Vijay's as I can possibly get into this country. He's a core element of our future success and ability to compete in the league of advanced nations for the next 100 years. We have a process for him but let's be honest, it's completely broken. Both parties agree and yet still no bipartisan action for 20 years now to address it. And as liberal as I am I don't want every Jose and Maria to just walk into this country. But we must have a way of processing them too. I think they and many like them are really mislabeled refugees, and no wall will ever stop the desire or flow towards the southern border so long as their home country is riven with such death and violence. But the country does need a certain amount of their kind too, they are the lifeblood at the very bottom of the economic order that feeds, cleans and keeps our neighborhoods looking tidy. And maybe someday little Jose and little Maria will grow up and go to MIT and change the world. We need a viable process for them too, it's not just a wall, more important than that is a functional and realistic process to get them here legally. That process doesn't exist today. We need to fix that just as badly as we need to fix it for Vijay.


The very large hole in the story of Jose and Maria is that they have multiple options, both within their own country and in countries in between. Mexico, for example offers work visas. I was reading last week of a supposed asylum seeker saying she deserved entry because her daughter was raped and they had fear. So why not move to another area of the city or the country, just like Americans do when the neighborhood goes to hell? End of the story, they are economic refugees. It is supposedly racist! to say it, but little Jose and Maria will also never do as well as little Vijay because their culture does not emphasize education. We don't have to go far to find the proof of that.

As for Vijay, living in Silicon Valley, the abuses of his system are indeed rampant. Fake diplomas, fake jobs, etc. He may be desirable - or he may not we'll never know because his boss only wants to employ his own kind, thus reinforcing the ideas that they are desirable and their skills unavailable domestically, the latter being absolutely false.

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