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DL717
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:47 pm

ltbewr wrote:
My suggestions are a bit complex but worth considering in how to deal with this growing problem of student loans without being unfair to the overwhelming majority who do pay them back. We shouldn't remove all risk of borrowers from taking one or of lenders taken advantage of.

Limit loans to only tuition, fees and books, not for housing. Some in the Trump Administration have suggested a cap on annual and total borrowings.

Encourage loan takers to go to local community and state run college they can commute to.

Limit or ban use of loans for private, for profit schools but for certain trades like auto repair technicians and only the best run schools.

I would want a limited expansion of being able to use bankruptcy law for those that got taken by for-profit colleges, especially if shut down, have serious mental or physical health problems that limit their ability to be employed.

Loan monies would go directly to the school and a credit with approved sources for books and related materials.

Some of the hard cases are where a woman became pregnant so had to drop out mid-term or out of school totally due to need or due to sexual or other violence. Some allowance should be made with the loan issuer, the student, their family and the schools do limit the damage.

Ban 'athletic' scholarships by all colleges. Make it so scholarships go to scholars, especially with need than for dummies that can play a game.

Have programs and administration at schools to discourage alcohol and drug use that cause too many dropouts.

As others have suggested, limit loans to majors where need and chances of getting a job that can pay the loan back, and educate students as to the real cost of those loans and the reality of the kind of job one can get.

Get the States and Federal government to better fund state schools. Many have reduced state funding to a tiny fraction of need and is offset by higher tuition and fees needing larger loans.

Make the schools a partner in the loans so have to take part of the hit if they are not paid. They could cause them to limit tuition increases and their risk of loss.


You have to keep the athletic scholarships. College sports, football in particular, brings massive amounts of money to the campuses that fund other programs. The television exposure draws kids to these schools. If they want to kill something off, they should dump fake degrees that don’t provide a damn thing for someone looking for a job once they are out. It’s programs such as this where millions of dollars have been spent on future burger flippers and baristas.

I like the idea of limiting loans to education based functions only. This would deter people from a lot of schools they shouldn’t be going to anyway and prevent debt they shouldn’t be taking on.

B777LRF wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Question, how free was your daughter to choose her path of study? If testing said she had an apathy for engineering, would she have instead been allowed to study Biology as it seems she is more excited about (given she is working at a zoo)? I've heard unsubstantiated claims that certain countries may offer "free" (I put free in quotes because in the end we as a society or paying for it in some form) higher education but that it is more guided - directed if you will - towards what your skills are actually grounded in. Think of the book The Giver for instance, although to the extreme.


The only thing that dictate what you can study, is your grades. Thus studying to become a doctor will require a higher average than studying law, which again has a higher average than engineering. And so far and so forth. The subject requiring the highest grade average is presently international business at Copenhagen Business School.

And we're all well aware that nothing is free, and that education is paid for via our taxes. Just like universal health care.


This won’t work here. We have a private/public university mix here. You’re suggesting a system where only the privileged would be able to attend private schools. Our system at least opens the door to those prestigious universities through near zero interest loans. Also, Denmark is smaller than many of our States so I don’t think you quiet understand the scope of what this would mean in the US. We have counties in this country with twice as many people as the entire Country of Denmark. Most States have a junior college system or second tier campus system to set up students for transfer, the tuition at these campuses is generally substantially less and close to where the student lives. In most cases this probably eliminates the room and board issue. Is it free? Not generally, but some States make it nearly free. For a pretty fair number of students it’s not very expensive at all. Maybe $3-5k a year all in.
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Tugger
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:19 pm

DL717 wrote:
You have to keep the athletic scholarships. College sports, football in particular, brings massive amounts of money to the campuses that fund other programs. The television exposure draws kids to these schools.

Wouldn't it be better to simply allow these athletes to be paid for their services?

Tugg
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TSS
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:50 pm

Tugger wrote:
DL717 wrote:
You have to keep the athletic scholarships. College sports, football in particular, brings massive amounts of money to the campuses that fund other programs. The television exposure draws kids to these schools.

Wouldn't it be better to simply allow these athletes to be paid for their services?

^ This. Exactly this. College sports, football in particular, brings massive amounts of money to the campuses, yet the the participants in said sports never see a dime of that money despite the wear and tear on their bodies that has lifelong consequences. If the athletes get permanently injured while playing their sport to the point of no longer being able to play, so sad, too bad, no more "scholarship" and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Another dirty secret (though it may not actually be a secret to those who follow college sports more closely than I do) is major schools will offer athletic scholarships to athletes who show great potential but aren't "the best of the best" to keep other schools from getting them only to have said athletes spend four years warming a bench, thus eliminating or severely reducing any chances of a post-college career in sports they might have had if they'd been a starting/featured player at a smaller school. Paying college athletes for their services would allow them to have something to show after four years of hard work above and beyond their degree besides several oddly clean sets of uniforms.

As for Senator Warren being the one who suggested eliminating student loan debt, does it occur to anyone besides me that she might be doing this just in case Harvard decides to bill her for any financial breaks she may have gotten from them while she was claiming to be a Native American?
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trpmb6
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:04 pm

I would have loved to sit on a bench warming it for 4 years to have gotten my schooling paid for. But that's just me.
 
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:47 pm

Tugger wrote:
gutless, mealy mouthed, back room dealing


Gross.
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Super80Fan
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:16 pm

Government loans should have 0% interest. Then again, Europe covers basic education or will subsidize and they are among the happiest, most educated countries in the world. What do they know?
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Dutchy
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:22 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Government loans should have 0% interest. Then again, Europe covers basic education or will subsidize and they are among the happiest, most educated countries in the world. What do they know?


An investment in education is one of the best things a society can do, it pays seven fold. Second is infrastructure.
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Tugger
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:46 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Government loans should have 0% interest.

Oddly, I could actually get behind this. Education is one of the most important things a nation can support for its citizens and its future growth. With primary schooling paid for by taxes, as a government expense essentially, I could see accepting this "expense" but one that is managed and owned by the person wanting the education. This idea provides a simple tool to allow a person to invest in themselves but still have skin in the game (which I have ofgten said is one of the most important things.

However, there would still need to be a cap, some kind of control, to remove the incentive to schools to just increase costs. I know it is not some easy quick fix thing, market forces are very effective and will find whatever benefit is offered and then work to maximize profit/funds based on those elements.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Pyrex
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:57 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Government loans should have 0% interest. Then again, Europe covers basic education or will subsidize and they are among the happiest, most educated countries in the world. What do they know?


Can't speak for the rest of Europe, but in Portugal you do have free higher education, but it truly is that, higher - there are proper (and objective) entry standards, number of spots is limited for every major based on perceived need (i.e., no underwater basket weaving or woman's studies majors, limited spots for liberal arts), undergrad courses are actually demanding (can't just keep a seat warm for 4 years and expect not to fail), etc.
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emperortk
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:40 pm

DL717 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
My suggestions are a bit complex but worth considering in how to deal with this growing problem of student loans without being unfair to the overwhelming majority who do pay them back. We shouldn't remove all risk of borrowers from taking one or of lenders taken advantage of.

Limit loans to only tuition, fees and books, not for housing. Some in the Trump Administration have suggested a cap on annual and total borrowings.

Encourage loan takers to go to local community and state run college they can commute to.

Limit or ban use of loans for private, for profit schools but for certain trades like auto repair technicians and only the best run schools.

I would want a limited expansion of being able to use bankruptcy law for those that got taken by for-profit colleges, especially if shut down, have serious mental or physical health problems that limit their ability to be employed.

Loan monies would go directly to the school and a credit with approved sources for books and related materials.

Some of the hard cases are where a woman became pregnant so had to drop out mid-term or out of school totally due to need or due to sexual or other violence. Some allowance should be made with the loan issuer, the student, their family and the schools do limit the damage.

Ban 'athletic' scholarships by all colleges. Make it so scholarships go to scholars, especially with need than for dummies that can play a game.

Have programs and administration at schools to discourage alcohol and drug use that cause too many dropouts.

As others have suggested, limit loans to majors where need and chances of getting a job that can pay the loan back, and educate students as to the real cost of those loans and the reality of the kind of job one can get.

Get the States and Federal government to better fund state schools. Many have reduced state funding to a tiny fraction of need and is offset by higher tuition and fees needing larger loans.

Make the schools a partner in the loans so have to take part of the hit if they are not paid. They could cause them to limit tuition increases and their risk of loss.


You have to keep the athletic scholarships. College sports, football in particular, brings massive amounts of money to the campuses that fund other programs.


The NCAA seems to disagree with you.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/athletics-departments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority

Only 24 FBS schools generated more revenue than they spent in 2014, according to the NCAA Revenues and Expenses of Division I Intercollegiate Athletics Programs Report. That figure jumped from 20 schools in 2013, but it has remained relatively consistent through the past decade.

"There is still a misperception that most schools are generating more money than they spend on college athletics," said NCAA Chief Financial Officer Kathleen McNeely. "These data show once again that the truth is just the opposite.

"The overwhelming majority of colleges and universities in the NCAA across all three divisions subsidize part or all of athletics."
 
910A
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:59 pm

emperortk wrote:
The NCAA seems to disagree with you.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/athletics-departments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority

Only 24 FBS schools generated more revenue than they spent in 2014, according to the NCAA Revenues and Expenses of Division I Intercollegiate Athletics Programs Report. That figure jumped from 20 schools in 2013, but it has remained relatively consistent through the past decade.

"There is still a misperception that most schools are generating more money than they spend on college athletics," said NCAA Chief Financial Officer Kathleen McNeely. "These data show once again that the truth is just the opposite.

"The overwhelming majority of colleges and universities in the NCAA across all three divisions subsidize part or all of athletics."


Thank you for posting, it's a common misunderstanding that universities make money from athletics. Sure a school like Ohio State and Texas does, but what about the hundreds of other schools that make the students pay a fee to support athletics? I doubt any DII/DIII/NAIA school makes a profit from sports. Shoot even a big time school like the University of Southern California can't afford to field a women's softball team.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:18 pm

910A wrote:
emperortk wrote:
The NCAA seems to disagree with you.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/athletics-departments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority

Only 24 FBS schools generated more revenue than they spent in 2014, according to the NCAA Revenues and Expenses of Division I Intercollegiate Athletics Programs Report. That figure jumped from 20 schools in 2013, but it has remained relatively consistent through the past decade.

"There is still a misperception that most schools are generating more money than they spend on college athletics," said NCAA Chief Financial Officer Kathleen McNeely. "These data show once again that the truth is just the opposite.

"The overwhelming majority of colleges and universities in the NCAA across all three divisions subsidize part or all of athletics."


Thank you for posting, it's a common misunderstanding that universities make money from athletics. Sure a school like Ohio State and Texas does, but what about the hundreds of other schools that make the students pay a fee to support athletics? I doubt any DII/DIII/NAIA school makes a profit from sports. Shoot even a big time school like the University of Southern California can't afford to field a women's softball team.

Sports is actually a big draw for alumni and sports has been shown to increase giving, both in amount and number of gifts. Also the stat you point to is only for football. Basketball adds more to that number.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:56 pm

As a person with debt, I’m not for it. It would certainly help me go to ATP, but it certainly would be unfair to people who were smart with their debt and made great sacrifices to reduce or eliminate it.

Reducing or cutting debt, or partial forgiveness or lowering interest are more sane proposals.
 
LMP737
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:58 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/22/elizabeth-warren-student-loan-debt-1284286


So, let me get this straight; I chose to make a responsible decision by not taking on crushing student loans to complete a degree, but those who irresponsibly took out $50K to get a degree in fields that aren’t in demand should get bailed out via the taxpayers?

Unbelievable.


So let me get this straight. The US government seems to be able to afford things like $2 trillion in Iraq, hundreds of billions in cost overruns at the DOD, billions for a wall, tax cuts for corporations etc etc this is what you are pounding your fist on the table saying "Not on my watch!". Hilarious.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:33 am

Tugger wrote:
However, there would still need to be a cap, some kind of control, to remove the incentive to schools to just increase costs. I know it is not some easy quick fix thing, market forces are very effective and will find whatever benefit is offered and then work to maximize profit/funds based on those elements.


Regulate it, so that no fly-by-night operator can open up a college & take in money from the gullible. It's that simple really.
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EA CO AS
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:49 am

LMP737 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/22/elizabeth-warren-student-loan-debt-1284286


So, let me get this straight; I chose to make a responsible decision by not taking on crushing student loans to complete a degree, but those who irresponsibly took out $50K to get a degree in fields that aren’t in demand should get bailed out via the taxpayers?

Unbelievable.


So let me get this straight. The US government seems to be able to afford things like $2 trillion in Iraq, hundreds of billions in cost overruns at the DOD, billions for a wall, tax cuts for corporations etc etc this is what you are pounding your fist on the table saying "Not on my watch!". Hilarious.



We can’t afford wars or huge DOD overruns. We need a wall. And corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers do. Try and keep up.
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:12 am

EA CO AS wrote:
And corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers do.


What? What about corporate income taxes?
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:16 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
And corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers do.


What? What about corporate income taxes?


Oh my, do you really believe that when a corporation's taxes go up that they don't raise prices on their consumers accordingly?

Yiiiiiikes...
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:30 am

EA CO AS wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
And corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers do.


What? What about corporate income taxes?


Oh my, do you really believe that when a corporation's taxes go up that they don't raise prices on their consumers accordingly?

Yiiiiiikes...


There's a difference between sales tax & corporate tax. To equate that consumers are paying the corporate tax is stupid. Sales tax, yes. But not corprate tax.

Since many companies pay little or no corporate taxes whatsoever, can you argue that consumers are paying their taxes in this case?

The cognitive dissonance here is striking.
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910A
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:32 am

EA CO AS wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
And corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers do.


What? What about corporate income taxes?


Oh my, do you really believe that when a corporation's taxes go up that they don't raise prices on their consumers accordingly?

Yiiiiiikes...


Urban legend..There are numerous examples of suppliers that can't raise their prices because the buyers won't paid the new price, look at diaries, meat, .. see auto manufacturers; see your industry; regionals cost go up but the majors won't change the contract..I should add stores like Wal-Mart..
 
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:38 am

910A wrote:
There are numerous examples of suppliers that can't raise their prices because the buyers won't paid the new price, look at diaries, meat, .. see auto manufacturers


So, by that logic, the price of all those items should be flat. And yet they're not.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:40 am

You might look at this from the TPC,

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/who-really-pays-corporate-income-tax

There’s no doubt corporations don’t pay the taxes, the big question is who pays—investors aka capital or labor in lower wages due to less productivity investment or, to a lesser degree, consumers thru higher prices. A lot depends on various elasticities, foreign competition, substitute goods.



Gf
 
910A
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:41 am

Tugger wrote:
910A wrote:
emperortk wrote:
The NCAA seems to disagree with you.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/athletics-departments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority

Only 24 FBS schools generated more revenue than they spent in 2014, according to the NCAA Revenues and Expenses of Division I Intercollegiate Athletics Programs Report. That figure jumped from 20 schools in 2013, but it has remained relatively consistent through the past decade.

"There is still a misperception that most schools are generating more money than they spend on college athletics," said NCAA Chief Financial Officer Kathleen McNeely. "These data show once again that the truth is just the opposite.

"The overwhelming majority of colleges and universities in the NCAA across all three divisions subsidize part or all of athletics."


Thank you for posting, it's a common misunderstanding that universities make money from athletics. Sure a school like Ohio State and Texas does, but what about the hundreds of other schools that make the students pay a fee to support athletics? I doubt any DII/DIII/NAIA school makes a profit from sports. Shoot even a big time school like the University of Southern California can't afford to field a women's softball team.

Sports is actually a big draw for alumni and sports has been shown to increase giving, both in amount and number of gifts. Also the stat you point to is only for football. Basketball adds more to that number.

Tugg

Only at some of the power 5 schools..Do you think a DI school like UW-Green Bay makes money with their basketball program. Now DII schools like Minnesota Duluth, Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech breakeven or make money with their DI hockey programs, but it doesn't come close to covering the expenses of football, women's and men's basketball...There was an article earlier in the week, where University of Minnesota was going to cut tickets prices to basketball and hockey in an effort to increase attendance.https://wccoradio.radio.com/articles/un ... and-hockey
 
KentB27
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:09 am

Eliminating student loan debt for everyone is a ridiculous idea that I would never vote in favor of. I am not willing to bail everyone out who made bad choices. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you go to college. What I will support though is student loan forgiveness programs for individuals who take certain jobs that are beneficial to communities. I'm not saying they should have all of their loans forgiven, but at least reduced. For example, I see no problem with student loan forgiveness being offered to people who take jobs in under-served or economically disadvantaged areas as an incentive to not only improve that community but also reduce their student loans in return for helping said community. There are already some programs like this that exist but broadening them wouldn't be a bad thing.
 
LMP737
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:28 am

EA CO AS wrote:
We can’t afford wars or huge DOD overruns


Funny, I've never seen you start a thread about it.

.
EA CO AS wrote:
We need a wall.


Yes, to protect us from all the scary little brown people who don't speak American or who might pray to the wrong imaginary friend. Don't try and pretend its for anything else.
Oh and by the way if had bothered to educate yourself on immigration you would know that the majority of people who are here illegally come here through legal points of entry. But I won't let facts get in your way.

EA CO AS wrote:
And corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers do. Try and keep up.


Well hell, why don't we just let corporations pay $0 in income taxes. Or better yet have the government give them money even when they make a profit. Oh wait......
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:46 am

LMP737 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
We can’t afford wars or huge DOD overruns


Funny, I've never seen you start a thread about it.


Never felt the need to, as a presidential candidate never campaigned on the wars they'd start or the DOD overruns they'd be eager to rack up.

LMP737 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
We need a wall.


Yes, to protect us from all the scary little brown people who don't speak American or who might pray to the wrong imaginary friend. Don't try and pretend its for anything else.



As a "scary little brown person" myself. I believe we need a wall to help slow the influx of people who come here illegally. And living in a border state, I have a front-row seat to the effects.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
LMP737
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:54 am

EA CO AS wrote:

As a "scary little brown person" myself. I believe we need a wall to help slow the influx of people who come here illegally. And living in a border state, I have a front-row seat to the effects.


The only way you would slow the flow is to close all legal points of entry. Because that's where the majority of them come through. But once again I won't let facts get in your way.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:57 am

910A wrote:

Only at some of the power 5 schools..Do you think a DI school like UW-Green Bay makes money with their basketball program. Now DII schools like Minnesota Duluth, Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech breakeven or make money with their DI hockey programs, but it doesn't come close to covering the expenses of football, women's and men's basketball...There was an article earlier in the week, where University of Minnesota was going to cut tickets prices to basketball and hockey in an effort to increase attendance.https://wccoradio.radio.com/articles/un ... and-hockey


University of Chicago dumped their athletics dept years ago, thought it would distract from learning.
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Jetty
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:27 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Government loans should have 0% interest. Then again, Europe covers basic education or will subsidize and they are among the happiest, most educated countries in the world. What do they know?

Well, The Netherlands where I live are among Europe’s happiest and we definitely don’t have free basic education, not whole Europe is like Sweden. University has to be payed for, and you can loan money from the government at a similar rate as theirs (thus currently very low). Some people end up with a student loan of more than $120.000,-, but it only has to be payed back if you make more than a basic salary, effectively meaning it’s written off in a small amount of cases. This system seems like a reasonable middle ground to me, instead of Warren’s plan.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:42 am

EA CO AS wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
And corporations don’t pay taxes, consumers do.


What? What about corporate income taxes?


Oh my, do you really believe that when a corporation's taxes go up that they don't raise prices on their consumers accordingly?

Yiiiiiikes...

You don't believe that companies can just raise their price to consumers do you? Yiiikes... what a poor understanding of market economics!

No, companies can't just pass along costs to consumers, because then consumers change their purchasing decisions.

No, the first thing that will be affected by more taxes is internal (whether that be staffing, or perks/bonuses, or tax strategy) then shareholders (Yes, shareholders, stock buybacks, dividends, stock valuations, etc.). Prices can also change but it would be slower over time and only as the market and competition allows.

But that's just economics.

Tugg
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seahawk
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:54 am

bennett123 wrote:
What do you mean by ‘Basic Level Schooling’.


Everything above Elementary schools should be a 100% private venture with no government support. Let the market decide.
 
anrec80
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:02 am

zkojq wrote:
Sounds like the tyranny of communism to me. How are wealthy families supposed to show that they're better than the peasants if the peasants can have the same education and healthcare as them? ;)


Have you heard of elite schools or social circles in Britain? It's all about being in the right circles introduced into by your parents, even how much money you have is secondary. Nobody needs to show anything to anyone.
 
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:04 am

seahawk wrote:

Everything above Elementary schools should be a 100% private venture with no government support. Let the market decide.


I like the idea "money follows the student". Government allocates funding to each kid, and the kid and their parents decide which school do they go to. But then you have all sorts of teacher's unions, and stuff...
 
B777LRF
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:22 am

DL717 wrote:
This won’t work here. We have a private/public university mix here. You’re suggesting a system where only the privileged would be able to attend private schools. Our system at least opens the door to those prestigious universities through near zero interest loans. Also, Denmark is smaller than many of our States so I don’t think you quiet understand the scope of what this would mean in the US. We have counties in this country with twice as many people as the entire Country of Denmark. Most States have a junior college system or second tier campus system to set up students for transfer, the tuition at these campuses is generally substantially less and close to where the student lives. In most cases this probably eliminates the room and board issue. Is it free? Not generally, but some States make it nearly free. For a pretty fair number of students it’s not very expensive at all. Maybe $3-5k a year all in.


It will obviously come as a surprise to you, but Denmark also has a mix of private and publicly owned institutions of higher learning. The private ones are, however, run as non-profit organisations and rely almost 100% for the state to finance their budgets. The difference is made up by foreign students (excluding those from the Nordics, who can study anywhere in the Nordics for free) who pay their own way.

But you make it sound as if the likes of Harvard, Yale, MIT etc. are admitting anybody who applies, when in actual fact they have some of the highest barriers of entry, and one of those barriers is indeed money.

Moving to a state funded system will lead to much lower costs, as the vast majority of students will gravitate towards the institutions who don't charge for tuition. There will always be a few 'elite' universities who are able to attract paying students, and we have that in Denmark too, but the prices they may command are significantly lower, than in a market where everybody charges.

Thus your conclusions is actually completely wrong: Moving to a state funded system will allow for a much larger number of students, who have the necessary academic qualifications, to attend university, not the other way around; the vast number of universities will be free of charge, and those who do charge will be much cheaper than at present.

And you're absolutely right about the size of Denmark, but with that minuscule size also comes an equal minuscule tax base. The US has a much, much higher tax base and thus all the possibilities in the world of making tuition free of charge. That it rather tax people less and spend the tax money on the military, is a choice not a law of nature.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:04 pm

Interesting tidbits:
Only around 5% (I've seen numbers ranging from 3.6% to 6%) of students/student loan holders have more than $100,000 in debt.
https://www.personalcapital.com/blog/co ... an-crisis/

And for-profit schools are the source for the most owed debt, with students of these types of schools having the great majority of the owed debt (something like 77% of the overall student loan debt)
Average debt by school type
The average amount of debt taken on to earn a degree can vary significantly by school type. Data from the College Board and the Department of Education shows that average debt for recent graduates is:
Public colleges and universities: $26,900
Private nonprofit schools: $32,600
Private for-profit schools: $39,900

https://www.credible.com/blog/statistic ... tatistics/

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
zhiao
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
Interesting tidbits:
Only around 5% (I've seen numbers ranging from 3.6% to 6%) of students/student loan holders have more than $100,000 in debt.
https://www.personalcapital.com/blog/co ... an-crisis/

And for-profit schools are the source for the most owed debt, with students of these types of schools having the great majority of the owed debt (something like 77% of the overall student loan debt)
Average debt by school type
The average amount of debt taken on to earn a degree can vary significantly by school type. Data from the College Board and the Department of Education shows that average debt for recent graduates is:
Public colleges and universities: $26,900
Private nonprofit schools: $32,600
Private for-profit schools: $39,900

https://www.credible.com/blog/statistic ... tatistics/

Tugg


And MOST of the above is due to living costs not tuition! LOL. So effectively Warren wants us to pay for young people's rent?! Screw that.

To the surprise of many, (especially abroad where the media distorts and lies about this issue), According to CollegeBoard, the NET (after aid, grants, scholarships) cost of a 4 year public college in the USA is $4,000 a year. Including room and board adds an additional $12,000. This is NOTHING. If you decide to have a dorm that's YOUR CHOICE. If you choose to go to a private school that's YOUR CHOICE. If you choose to go out of state that's YOUR CHOICE. In Europe, most people who go to college stay at home. If they choose to live somewhere, they have to PAY for a room just like in USA (in most countries). I grant that the dorms may be cheaper there, but also the facilities at US universities are far superior with state of the art gyms, campus life, more activities, sports, etc. There is simply no comparison.

And even with these choices, the overall avg debt burden isn't even that big of a deal. The horror stories come from those 5%, which as you said, comes mainly from the choice of going to a private school or grad school. If everyone simply stayed at public schools there would be much less debt, but noooo, and now they want to complain.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:34 pm

Honestly, with most anything that I have an opinion on, it comes down to personal responsibility. I think anyone should be able to pursue any education they should want to pursue, and be successful or fail in said pursuit. The public shouldn't be burdened by someone who pursues an education in one field, only to discover 3 years in that isn't what they want to do and switch. (An anecdotal note, recently had a coworker quit after a few months on the job to pursue another field of work.)

Again, personal responsibility goes a long way. If you want to rack up 100k in debt for a degree that only pays 60k a year, don't complain. You did that to yourself. You made that choice. You signed the promissory note. If anything we should be talking about doing a better job of educating potential loan seekers with what the industry they are pursuing has to offer jobs wise. I'd support legislation requiring market analysis of salaries for potential job fields based on their designated degree being required literature when seeking a loan. Educate those who are seeking to be educated.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:35 am

I'm actually for this. Student debt is the next big financial crisis for millennials. I think the government should restructure all current loans to be paid off once they hit face value, and if they've gone over that amount but still have interest, the remaining interest should be wiped and the difference paid between the face value and old interest is paid back to the student.

I still believe in an equitable balance even with the government, but if everyone's debt is forgiven period then that's cool too.

I believe it should be restructured with varying interest rates for various degree programs (a loan is a loan so interest will remain); STEM would get the lower rates, teaching and business in the middle, then art degrees in the highest bracket. That set up will encourage more STEM grads. There would also be a hard limit for interest that doesn't adjust for inflation, CPI, or PPP, or anything else, it would remain X% of the face value effective when the loan is received. Various GI Bills, ROTC, and applicable state laws for service members would remain unchanged. Its an easy way to give young people a taste of a loan, as well as the real world, while encouraging them to get a useful degree or at least to serve in the armed forces while not adding as much stress as my classmates faced when I was in college.

Keep it simple, stupid.

Signed,
A millennial without college debt
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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DL717
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:55 am

Tugger wrote:
DL717 wrote:
You have to keep the athletic scholarships. College sports, football in particular, brings massive amounts of money to the campuses that fund other programs. The television exposure draws kids to these schools.

Wouldn't it be better to simply allow these athletes to be paid for their services?

Tugg


The problem with that is where will the line be drawn? Are schools going to give these players anymore than a scholarship would pay? If not, then there no point to it. If you are going to pay them more, then it’s less money spread to other programs. College sports are not professional sports. That said, if they get injured, schools should remain on the hook until the kid finishes school. Likewise, if they are a screw up, schools shouldn’t be hiding their bad behavior. They need zero tolerance.
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DL717
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:01 am

910A wrote:
emperortk wrote:
The NCAA seems to disagree with you.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/athletics-departments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority

Only 24 FBS schools generated more revenue than they spent in 2014, according to the NCAA Revenues and Expenses of Division I Intercollegiate Athletics Programs Report. That figure jumped from 20 schools in 2013, but it has remained relatively consistent through the past decade.

"There is still a misperception that most schools are generating more money than they spend on college athletics," said NCAA Chief Financial Officer Kathleen McNeely. "These data show once again that the truth is just the opposite.

"The overwhelming majority of colleges and universities in the NCAA across all three divisions subsidize part or all of athletics."


Thank you for posting, it's a common misunderstanding that universities make money from athletics. Sure a school like Ohio State and Texas does, but what about the hundreds of other schools that make the students pay a fee to support athletics? I doubt any DII/DIII/NAIA school makes a profit from sports. Shoot even a big time school like the University of Southern California can't afford to field a women's softball team.


Yes. Let’s take $9 billion in revenue out of the system and see how that shakes out:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-sc ... ue-2016-10
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DL717
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:16 am

B777LRF wrote:
DL717 wrote:
This won’t work here. We have a private/public university mix here. You’re suggesting a system where only the privileged would be able to attend private schools. Our system at least opens the door to those prestigious universities through near zero interest loans. Also, Denmark is smaller than many of our States so I don’t think you quiet understand the scope of what this would mean in the US. We have counties in this country with twice as many people as the entire Country of Denmark. Most States have a junior college system or second tier campus system to set up students for transfer, the tuition at these campuses is generally substantially less and close to where the student lives. In most cases this probably eliminates the room and board issue. Is it free? Not generally, but some States make it nearly free. For a pretty fair number of students it’s not very expensive at all. Maybe $3-5k a year all in.


It will obviously come as a surprise to you, but Denmark also has a mix of private and publicly owned institutions of higher learning. The private ones are, however, run as non-profit organisations and rely almost 100% for the state to finance their budgets. The difference is made up by foreign students (excluding those from the Nordics, who can study anywhere in the Nordics for free) who pay their own way.

But you make it sound as if the likes of Harvard, Yale, MIT etc. are admitting anybody who applies, when in actual fact they have some of the highest barriers of entry, and one of those barriers is indeed money.

Moving to a state funded system will lead to much lower costs, as the vast majority of students will gravitate towards the institutions who don't charge for tuition. There will always be a few 'elite' universities who are able to attract paying students, and we have that in Denmark too, but the prices they may command are significantly lower, than in a market where everybody charges.

Thus your conclusions is actually completely wrong: Moving to a state funded system will allow for a much larger number of students, who have the necessary academic qualifications, to attend university, not the other way around; the vast number of universities will be free of charge, and those who do charge will be much cheaper than at present.

And you're absolutely right about the size of Denmark, but with that minuscule size also comes an equal minuscule tax base. The US has a much, much higher tax base and thus all the possibilities in the world of making tuition free of charge. That it rather tax people less and spend the tax money on the military, is a choice not a law of nature.


No, my conclusion is completely right. What you’re not getting is that each State has their own public University System. Any one of them could make it free tomorrow. They aren’t profit centers, so obviously the going rate is justifiable. The problem here is people traveling to out of state Universities where the tuition rate is triple that of in-state to experiment with bullshit majors because they don’t know what to do in life. Case in point. In-State resident tuition just up the road? $10k. Non-resident on the same campus? $29k. Again, they aren’t profit centers so the cost is obviously justifiable. Where do you think the student debt problem would stand today if kids stayed in-State? Probably pretty damn good. I bet if you came here for school and had to plop down $29k a year you’d have a debt problem.
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DL717
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:52 am

B777LRF wrote:
DL717 wrote:
This won’t work here. We have a private/public university mix here. You’re suggesting a system where only the privileged would be able to attend private schools. Our system at least opens the door to those prestigious universities through near zero interest loans. Also, Denmark is smaller than many of our States so I don’t think you quiet understand the scope of what this would mean in the US. We have counties in this country with twice as many people as the entire Country of Denmark. Most States have a junior college system or second tier campus system to set up students for transfer, the tuition at these campuses is generally substantially less and close to where the student lives. In most cases this probably eliminates the room and board issue. Is it free? Not generally, but some States make it nearly free. For a pretty fair number of students it’s not very expensive at all. Maybe $3-5k a year all in.


It will obviously come as a surprise to you, but Denmark also has a mix of private and publicly owned institutions of higher learning. The private ones are, however, run as non-profit organisations and rely almost 100% for the state to finance their budgets. The difference is made up by foreign students (excluding those from the Nordics, who can study anywhere in the Nordics for free) who pay their own way.

But you make it sound as if the likes of Harvard, Yale, MIT etc. are admitting anybody who applies, when in actual fact they have some of the highest barriers of entry, and one of those barriers is indeed money.

Moving to a state funded system will lead to much lower costs, as the vast majority of students will gravitate towards the institutions who don't charge for tuition. There will always be a few 'elite' universities who are able to attract paying students, and we have that in Denmark too, but the prices they may command are significantly lower, than in a market where everybody charges.

Thus your conclusions is actually completely wrong: Moving to a state funded system will allow for a much larger number of students, who have the necessary academic qualifications, to attend university, not the other way around; the vast number of universities will be free of charge, and those who do charge will be much cheaper than at present.

And you're absolutely right about the size of Denmark, but with that minuscule size also comes an equal minuscule tax base. The US has a much, much higher tax base and thus all the possibilities in the world of making tuition free of charge. That it rather tax people less and spend the tax money on the military, is a choice not a law of nature.


By the way, since you want to play the military budget game, how about you double your budget and we can then cut ours? Fair enough? It costs money to be the worlds babysitter. If Europe went back to spending 3% of GDP on defense instead of leeching off us as they have since WWII we’d have a lot more money to throw around for things like education.
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emperortk
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:52 am

DL717 wrote:
910A wrote:
emperortk wrote:
The NCAA seems to disagree with you.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/athletics-departments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority

Only 24 FBS schools generated more revenue than they spent in 2014, according to the NCAA Revenues and Expenses of Division I Intercollegiate Athletics Programs Report. That figure jumped from 20 schools in 2013, but it has remained relatively consistent through the past decade.

"There is still a misperception that most schools are generating more money than they spend on college athletics," said NCAA Chief Financial Officer Kathleen McNeely. "These data show once again that the truth is just the opposite.

"The overwhelming majority of colleges and universities in the NCAA across all three divisions subsidize part or all of athletics."


Thank you for posting, it's a common misunderstanding that universities make money from athletics. Sure a school like Ohio State and Texas does, but what about the hundreds of other schools that make the students pay a fee to support athletics? I doubt any DII/DIII/NAIA school makes a profit from sports. Shoot even a big time school like the University of Southern California can't afford to field a women's softball team.


Yes. Let’s take $9 billion in revenue out of the system and see how that shakes out:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-sc ... ue-2016-10


Without knowing what schools spent on athletics programs that $9 billion figure is ultimately meaningless. If schools spent $10 billion on sports to obtain $9 billion in revenue, then one definite effect would be the schools would have an additional $1 billion.

We do have a quote from the NCAA's CFO stating that the overwhelming majority of schools spend more money on athletics than those programs generate. So we know that at least one effect for most schools of removing that $9 billion would be that those schools would have more money, which means they could 1) spend more money on education, facilities, etc or 2) reduce the student fees currently used in part to subsidize athletics.
 
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william
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:03 pm

The real question, that no one ever tackles is why is secondary education so expensive?
 
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DL717
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:51 am

william wrote:
The real question, that no one ever tackles is why is secondary education so expensive?


Because of loans. Kids and parents get more money to spend using the loans, colleges charge more and you wind up with profs making $200k-$300k a year. Round and round it goes. Pretty simple.
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DL717
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:59 am

emperortk wrote:
DL717 wrote:
910A wrote:

Thank you for posting, it's a common misunderstanding that universities make money from athletics. Sure a school like Ohio State and Texas does, but what about the hundreds of other schools that make the students pay a fee to support athletics? I doubt any DII/DIII/NAIA school makes a profit from sports. Shoot even a big time school like the University of Southern California can't afford to field a women's softball team.


Yes. Let’s take $9 billion in revenue out of the system and see how that shakes out:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-sc ... ue-2016-10


Without knowing what schools spent on athletics programs that $9 billion figure is ultimately meaningless. If schools spent $10 billion on sports to obtain $9 billion in revenue, then one definite effect would be the schools would have an additional $1 billion.

We do have a quote from the NCAA's CFO stating that the overwhelming majority of schools spend more money on athletics than those programs generate. So we know that at least one effect for most schools of removing that $9 billion would be that those schools would have more money, which means they could 1) spend more money on education, facilities, etc or 2) reduce the student fees currently used in part to subsidize athletics.


I’ll put this here for you:

https://www.sbnation.com/2019/2/28/1824 ... enue-money
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WarRI1
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:22 am

It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:45 am

DL717 wrote:
william wrote:
The real question, that no one ever tackles is why is secondary education so expensive?


Because of loans. Kids and parents get more money to spend using the loans, colleges charge more and you wind up with profs making $200k-$300k a year. Round and round it goes. Pretty simple.

While I agree that easy loans and without limits allows increases to easily be passed along, I will correct the idea that many professors are making salaries like you are suggesting. Yes there are some high paid professors, some very high but the vast majority don't and rather make "normal" wages. Some dirt poor to others doing pretty well with most in the middle.

Based on stats from the last three years there are somewhere between 350,000 and 400,000 professors in the USA. The bottom 10% make less than $40,000 and the top 10% make over $165,000. There is variation in some of the data due to some including any credentialed college teachers while others go for full time, tenured PhD's. And then there are private versus public institutions.

More than 1,000 institutions representing 378,865 full-time faculty members responded to the AAUP’s Faculty Compensation Survey, from which the new report is derived. The average full professor salary this year was $104,820. Associate professors earned $81,274 in salary, on average, and assistant professors were paid $70,791. Lecturers earned $56,712, on average and instructors earned $59,400.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... n-and-more

Here are a few links for this:
https://thebestschools.org/magazine/hig ... s-america/
https://www.quora.com/How-many-college- ... US-in-2017
https://www.careermatch.com/job-prep/ca ... ssor-make/

Being a university educator is not a bad job but it also is not just cake with money rolling in. It takes intelligence, skill, dedication and a willingness to climb through years of lower pay to get to something better.

Just my two cents.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
emperortk
Posts: 48
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:09 pm

DL717 wrote:
emperortk wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Yes. Let’s take $9 billion in revenue out of the system and see how that shakes out:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ncaa-sc ... ue-2016-10


Without knowing what schools spent on athletics programs that $9 billion figure is ultimately meaningless. If schools spent $10 billion on sports to obtain $9 billion in revenue, then one definite effect would be the schools would have an additional $1 billion.

We do have a quote from the NCAA's CFO stating that the overwhelming majority of schools spend more money on athletics than those programs generate. So we know that at least one effect for most schools of removing that $9 billion would be that those schools would have more money, which means they could 1) spend more money on education, facilities, etc or 2) reduce the student fees currently used in part to subsidize athletics.


I’ll put this here for you:

https://www.sbnation.com/2019/2/28/1824 ... enue-money


Your linked article says:

My best estimate is that the vast majority of power conference schools and at least a few non power conference programs “make money” from athletics.

Let's say that the number of schools that make money is 100 (probably an overestimate according to your article's author). That's still well under 10% of schools with athletics departments. What about the other >90% of schools?
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: Sen. Warren proposes eliminating student loan debt

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:45 pm

Money for nothing, Lazy, entitled and often talentless liberals have screwed up the natural order of meritocracy, and expect that the government should pay for and sanction mediocrity and meaningless degrees with no benefit to society. Successful people get scholarships or get a trade rather than a degree, Others can get loans on degrees they show an aptitude for that they pay back when they are able. or if they have money they pay for it themselves.

It really bothers me that these elitists think it is fine to steal money from all taxpayers to fund schemes that only favour a minority of people. Tax is supposed to pay for infrastructure and the support system surrounding essential infrastructure.. It isn't there for people who make poor life choices. As with anything in life, if it doesn't cost time, money or require sacrifice to achieve then it has no intrinsic value. At least with loans, the individual has to apply themselves to the job because there is a consequence for failure and not picking the right degree.
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