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Tugger
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Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:37 pm

Interesting take on it:
A panel of three judges for the 6th Circuit (Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee) unanimously ruled that chalking car tires is a violation of the Fourth Amendment because government officials physically trespass on a constitutionally protected area (private vehicles) to collect information, according to NPR.

Alison Taylor, a resident of Saginaw, Michigan, sued Saginaw City and its parking enforcement officer Tabitha Hoskins after Taylor’s car tires were chalked on 15 separate occasions between 2014 and 2017 and she was issued citations in kind, according to court documents.

Taylor alleged her Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches had been violated because Hoskins and the city had put chalk marks on her car’s tires without a search warrant or her consent.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... ional.html

Sigh... probably right but still...

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TSS
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:56 pm

I'm no legal expert, but even to me that seems like an easy case that was very badly argued by the defense. No matter- An app to photograph the position of a parked car's valve stems and file that photo by tag number and time stamp, basically an until recently unnecessarily high-tech method of chalking tires, will be available to law enforcement in 3, 2, ...
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trpmb6
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:29 pm

Despite her likely violating parking laws on at least 15 occasions, I still support this opinion. I mean what if you had just gotten your car detailed at a high end shop and paid extra for that special tire shine.

Of course maybe said person would probably pay for valet but i digress.

Want to fine me for parking too long, do the work to actually prove I did. With timestamps. The other possibility is what if you had parked somewhere, got chalked, then you leave for lunch before an afternoon meeting, come back and 10 minutes later you get a parking ticket but you technically didn't violate the parking ordinance.
 
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:49 pm

Scoff laws rejoice. The next legal way of marking an illegally marked parked car may be more expensive. Wonderful.
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:33 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Despite her likely violating parking laws on at least 15 occasions, I still support this opinion. I mean what if you had just gotten your car detailed at a high end shop and paid extra for that special tire shine.

I get that some people really like the unnaturally shiny tire look (fortunately not as much as they did for a while, though), but as someone who installed tires for many years I hate that "Tire Shine" stuff and am convinced that it is nothing in the world more than Jheri-Curl Activator juice, one of the vilest substances known to man, in a different package. But I digress...

trpmb6 wrote:
Of course maybe said person would probably pay for valet but I digress.

Possibly, but valet parking isn't available everywhere. Equally possible is that the plaintiff abused limited-time free street parking rather than pay to use a dedicated parking structure that charges a per-hour fee.

trpmb6 wrote:
Want to fine me for parking too long, do the work to actually prove I did. With timestamps. The other possibility is what if you had parked somewhere, got chalked, then you leave for lunch before an afternoon meeting, come back and 10 minutes later you get a parking ticket but you technically didn't violate the parking ordinance.

Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp. Chalking marks the position of the tire(s), usually with the chalk mark at the very bottom, so it would be extremely unlikely but not impossible that a single marked tire would be in the same position upon your return. With a photo app the parking official could record the position of both the front and rear valve stems which would serve the same purpose as a chalk mark with the extra added bonus that the odds of two tires being in exactly the same position after having left and come back is astronomically small.
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910A
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:54 pm

TSS wrote:
Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp. Chalking marks the position of the tire(s), usually with the chalk mark at the very bottom, so it would be extremely unlikely but not impossible that a single marked tire would be in the same position upon your return. With a photo app the parking official could record the position of both the front and rear valve stems which would serve the same purpose as a chalk mark with the extra added bonus that the odds of two tires being in exactly the same position after having left and come back is astronomically small.


Your suggestion might way too costly for police departments, finding it too expensive to store and manage the thousands of pictures, which is same reason why some police departments are junking the body cam. A parking meter would be more effective, but then the risk is the consumer would shop or do their business elsewhere.
 
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:02 pm

TSS wrote:
Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp.

I am thinking it would have to be wirelessly uploaded to server somewhere so the timestamp can be confirmed. Otherwise how can it be validated as correct and accurate?

I get this ruling is probably "correct" but I miss the simplicity of the old system. And I myself do not find it to be "invasive". I guess we may all soon be able to sue the cities for any flat tire we get due to something on the city maintained streets as it will be an unfair intrusion into the tire and therefore my rights....

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KentB27
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:00 am

So, let me get this straight. Alison got 15 parking tickets in 3 years?

Sounds to me like Alison needs to take responsibility for her actions and stop blaming others. She's the one who left her car parked in spots for longer than the allotted time period for those spots. If she didn't want to get parking tickets or have chalk on her tires then she should have followed the rules. But I get it.......It's 2019 and admitting responsibility for your actions is so much more uncool than blaming others.
 
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:33 am

KentB27 wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Alison got 15 parking tickets in 3 years?

Sounds to me like Alison needs to take responsibility for her actions and stop blaming others. She's the one who left her car parked in spots for longer than the allotted time period for those spots. If she didn't want to get parking tickets or have chalk on her tires then she should have followed the rules. But I get it.......It's 2019 and admitting responsibility for your actions is so much more uncool than blaming others.


I wonder how many more times she violated the parking by-laws and didn't get ticketed.
 
stratclub
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:53 am

Just amazing. Some people need to understand that their time here on earth is completely pointless.
 
JJJ
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:00 am

910A wrote:
TSS wrote:
Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp. Chalking marks the position of the tire(s), usually with the chalk mark at the very bottom, so it would be extremely unlikely but not impossible that a single marked tire would be in the same position upon your return. With a photo app the parking official could record the position of both the front and rear valve stems which would serve the same purpose as a chalk mark with the extra added bonus that the odds of two tires being in exactly the same position after having left and come back is astronomically small.


Your suggestion might way too costly for police departments, finding it too expensive to store and manage the thousands of pictures, which is same reason why some police departments are junking the body cam. A parking meter would be more effective, but then the risk is the consumer would shop or do their business elsewhere.


Over here local mobility officers (they aren't cops, much lower pay etc even if they wear a superficially similar uniform and are employed by the city) just take a picture with their cellphone and email it to central with the parking ticket reference.

Takes all of 1 minute and no extra investment needed.
 
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:22 pm

910A wrote:
TSS wrote:
Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp. Chalking marks the position of the tire(s), usually with the chalk mark at the very bottom, so it would be extremely unlikely but not impossible that a single marked tire would be in the same position upon your return. With a photo app the parking official could record the position of both the front and rear valve stems which would serve the same purpose as a chalk mark with the extra added bonus that the odds of two tires being in exactly the same position after having left and come back is astronomically small.


Your suggestion might way too costly for police departments, finding it too expensive to store and manage the thousands of pictures, which is same reason why some police departments are junking the body cam. A parking meter would be more effective, but then the risk is the consumer would shop or do their business elsewhere.

Tech is already here.

https://www.csulb.edu/parking-and-trans ... permitting

Mike Drop
 
petertenthije
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:50 pm

TSS wrote:
Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp.
What's wrong with simply taking a photo with a mobile phone? There are already time stamps on these photos. No need to waste money building an app for that.
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Aesma
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:53 pm

Before I sold my old BMW E30 coupe it was sitting on a free street parking spot for days or a couple weeks at a time, as it needed some maintenance before I could really use it, and my mechanic wasn't available. I didn't know there was anything wrong with that, and I specifically put it in a street where there are always free spots.

Local "cops" didn't chalk the tires, I would have liked that, instead they used orange paint on the ground, the tires, and the rims ! Barbarians !
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BN747
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:40 pm

petertenthije wrote:
TSS wrote:
Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp.
What's wrong with simply taking a photo with a mobile phone? There are already time stamps on these photos. No need to waste money building an app for that.


That’s exactly what they are doing here, no more chalk. A photo then the penalty photo when time has expired.

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seb146
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:18 pm

Some communities use vending machines. One machine per block face. You can pay either with a credit card for the full time or with cash for partial time. Stick the receipt in your window, lock your car and done. I am sure someone has some problem with that, too.....
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:47 pm

seb146 wrote:
Some communities use vending machines. One machine per block face. You can pay either with a credit card for the full time or with cash for partial time. Stick the receipt in your window, lock your car and done. I am sure someone has some problem with that, too.....


Saw a lot of these in the Seattle area as far back as 2011. More recently I used one in Kansas City. They're practical. Only a minor issue in that you have to walk to the machine, get your ticket and walk back to your vehicle. But that's not really a big deal. I've seen them on both lots and city street side parking.

Pretty sure the chalking method is mainly used for free parking locations with 2 hour parking limit. Probably in front of buisnesses/government buildings where the expected duration of use should normally be below 2 hours.

Personally, I don't like the whole idea of paying to park - particularly on city streets. I understand their purpose. It's just an annoyance. Someone should announce their candidacy based on a free parking for everyone platform.
 
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:19 pm

Then prepare to bulldoze some blocks to make way for parking spots.

In Paris mayors get elected by promising to make parking more difficult, more expensive, and fines harsher ! Paris inhabitants mostly don't have cars and want cars out.
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:29 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Scoff laws rejoice. The next legal way of marking an illegally marked parked car may be more expensive. Wonderful.


BS. I am rejoicing because they occasionally mark every car on the street in my RESIDENTIAL neighborhood, looking for cars parked more than 72 hours. The problem is, that chalk doesn't wash off. I have tires marked two years ago still with a yellow line, scrubbed and washed numerous times. It is nothing but defacement.
 
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:42 pm

petertenthije wrote:
TSS wrote:
Hence my suggestion of a photo app to record the valve stem positions complete with time stamp.

What's wrong with simply taking a photo with a mobile phone? There are already time stamps on these photos. No need to waste money building an app for that.

I may not have specifically stated as much, but using a mobile phone is exactly what I had in mind. The need for the app lies in the ability to archive by tag number and more importantly to start a timer on each vehicle separately beginning at the time of the first photo. While all of this could be done manually, it would be a lot easier and quicker to have a simple setup wherein the parking enforcement officer simply snaps a pic, enters the tag number, and gets an alert when it is time to see if the car is still in the same spot. If it's gone, just press the "Gone" key and the app deletes the photo and info on that vehicle.
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:18 pm

TSS wrote:
I may not have specifically stated as much, but using a mobile phone is exactly what I had in mind. The need for the app lies in the ability to archive by tag number and more importantly to start a timer on each vehicle separately beginning at the time of the first photo. While all of this could be done manually, it would be a lot easier and quicker to have a simple setup wherein the parking enforcement officer simply snaps a pic, enters the tag number, and gets an alert when it is time to see if the car is still in the same spot. If it's gone, just press the "Gone" key and the app deletes the photo and info on that vehicle.

My bet? All this will be done automatically from the vehicle with the officer (or whatever the "employee" doing the job is called) just driving while a license plate reader logs the plate and captures the vehicle image and uploads it. Then when any other enforcement vehicle drives by whenever, they are automatically alerted and a ticket is automatically readied.

As I say this, I realize a city could probably install a static camera that views a whole section of parking and does the same thing 24/7. Just watch for vehicle movement, or not, and when one overstays its allotted time, print up a ticket.

Be careful what you wish for.

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petertenthije
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:19 pm

Tugger wrote:
My bet? All this will be done automatically from the vehicle with the officer (or whatever the "employee" doing the job is called) just driving while a license plate reader logs the plate and captures the vehicle image and uploads it.

The larger cities in NL already do this.

You buy a parking ticket at the vending machine, where you have to enter the license plate number. The license plate and expiry time of the parking ticket go into a central computer. The parking autority drives around with small cars with ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras. So the “officer” only has to drive around. No need to leave the car, no paperwork... all automated.
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:23 am

petertenthije wrote:
Tugger wrote:
My bet? All this will be done automatically from the vehicle with the officer (or whatever the "employee" doing the job is called) just driving while a license plate reader logs the plate and captures the vehicle image and uploads it.

The larger cities in NL already do this.

You buy a parking ticket at the vending machine, where you have to enter the license plate number. The license plate and expiry time of the parking ticket go into a central computer. The parking autority drives around with small cars with ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras. So the “officer” only has to drive around. No need to leave the car, no paperwork... all automated.


Big Brother is truly here!

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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:30 am

petertenthije wrote:
The larger cities in NL already do this.

NL?
New Lealand?
North Lakota?
North Larolina?
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Aesma
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:51 am

Also the case in plenty of places in France including Paris. It has been outsourced to private companies. No such thing as free parking there, though.
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:24 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Of course maybe said person would probably pay for valet but i digress.


Where do you plan on finding valet parking in Saginaw City, Michigan?
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:33 pm

TSS wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The larger cities in NL already do this.

NL?
New Lealand?
North Lakota?
North Larolina?


Is that a serious question or just trolling?
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:18 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
TSS wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The larger cities in NL already do this.

NL?
New Lealand?
North Lakota?
North Larolina?


Is that a serious question or just trolling?

It is a serious question. I have absolutely no idea what "NL" stands for. However, to try to get a chuckle out of my dismay I listed the first three obviously incorrect guesses that popped into my head just in case it was a typo.
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:47 pm

TSS wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
TSS wrote:
NL?
New Lealand?
North Lakota?
North Larolina?


Is that a serious question or just trolling?

It is a serious question. I have absolutely no idea what "NL" stands for. However, to try to get a chuckle out of my dismay I listed the first three obviously incorrect guesses that popped into my head just in case it was a typo.


I found your guesses funny too. But they were indeed incorrect. NL is the international vehicle registration code for The Netherlands, AKA Holland. This is something not really used around here, but the oval stickers with the international code had to be on a car in Europe when you wanted to cross the border. Now they are a part of the licence plate. Some of the codes are straightforward, some don't make sense at first glance.
https://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/oval-stickers/
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:42 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
TSS wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:

Is that a serious question or just trolling?

It is a serious question. I have absolutely no idea what "NL" stands for. However, to try to get a chuckle out of my dismay I listed the first three obviously incorrect guesses that popped into my head just in case it was a typo.


I found your guesses funny too. But they were indeed incorrect. NL is the international vehicle registration code for The Netherlands, AKA Holland. This is something not really used around here, but the oval stickers with the international code had to be on a car in Europe when you wanted to cross the border. Now they are a part of the licence plate. Some of the codes are straightforward, some don't make sense at first glance.
https://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/oval-stickers/

Gotcha. I've seen those in older films but didn't know they were actually required at the time.
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T18
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:05 pm

TSS wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
TSS wrote:
NL?
New Lealand?
North Lakota?
North Larolina?


Is that a serious question or just trolling?

It is a serious question. I have absolutely no idea what "NL" stands for. However, to try to get a chuckle out of my dismay I listed the first three obviously incorrect guesses that popped into my head just in case it was a typo.


I assume they mean the Netherlands
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Re: Marking tires for parking-time enforcement ruled unconstitutional

Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:45 pm

TSS wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
TSS wrote:
It is a serious question. I have absolutely no idea what "NL" stands for. However, to try to get a chuckle out of my dismay I listed the first three obviously incorrect guesses that popped into my head just in case it was a typo.


I found your guesses funny too. But they were indeed incorrect. NL is the international vehicle registration code for The Netherlands, AKA Holland. This is something not really used around here, but the oval stickers with the international code had to be on a car in Europe when you wanted to cross the border. Now they are a part of the licence plate. Some of the codes are straightforward, some don't make sense at first glance.
https://www.worldstandards.eu/cars/oval-stickers/

Gotcha. I've seen those in older films but didn't know they were actually required at the time.

I'm sure Wildcat could come up with the same answer, but I'll jump in anyway.
"Older films" LOL - the oval sticker (quite literally a laminated oval shape with an adhesive backing) was in use from 1949 until the 1970's. In an era when not everybody could afford to take their car on holiday with them, the sticker could be applied temporarily for the duration of time the vehicle was abroad, and carefully removed afterwards. Of course some people took delight in leaving the sticker permanently on their vehicle as a badge of honor to boast to their neighbors that they had boldly ventured where no man had gone before. Or possibly simply that they would require it for future trips.
And here is a classic Dutch vehicle, complete with an NL oval
Image

More recently, many countries around the world have incorporated the national codes into the standard license plate itself, meaning that the oval sticker was no longer required in most cases.
Here is an example from IRL (Eire), featuring the European Union flag ("D"= Dublin)
Image

And this example is from N= Norway, featuring the Norwegian flag ("DN" is one of many two letter codes representing Oslo)
Image
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