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zkojq
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:19 pm

Turns out five of the 'terrorists' were actually gay lovers.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sions.html
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Thunderbolt500
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:32 am

Nasty country
 
ltbewr
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:37 am

How about the 1000's executed for crimes in China, a major trading partner of the rest of the world or the dozens the USA has executed in the last several years including with the use of drugs with cruel and painful deaths. Yes, the Saudi government is cruel in its awful way, but other countries are not much better in their own way.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:45 am

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
Nasty country


But hey, we'll turn a blind eye while we sell them billions ($/£/€) in arms.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:02 am

zkojq wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
BN747

Sounds like you went to a very strange Church
are there other types?




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Normal ones.

One where they don’t believe in the supernatural without evidence and there isn’t a man in a dress telling you about moral behaviour.

If you take the weird behaviour outing a church it becomes a suburban book club.

Fred


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Redd
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:13 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Religion makes good people do bad things.

Fly planes into building.
Blow them selves up in a crowd.
Scare and psychologically damage children in to believing the same as them through fear of eternal pain.
Cutting out the clitoris of young girls to prevent them enjoying intercourse


None of that are due to religion. All of those are due to people misusing religion. There's no doubt that these things won't go away even if there's no religion.

It doesn't prove your hypothesis at all.


All of that is in the name of religion, people made religion to be misused, it was the first and most primitive form of governance.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:23 pm

Did they show the beheadings on public tv?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:09 am

Redd wrote:
All of that is in the name of religion, people made religion to be misused, it was the first and most primitive form of governance.


There's no doubt that they'd do the same even without religion, so religion is hardly the cause of the action.
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N14AZ
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:08 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Did they show the beheadings on public tv?

It’s not allowed to film the beheadings. Policemen make sure that you do not use your mobile phone during the beheadings.

A colleague of mine was invited to take part in such a ceremony when working in KSA... :roll:
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:43 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
BN747 wrote:
It's the problem with organized Religion - period.

BN747


Plenty of religious people who are good. And plenty of atheist who are evil. So what does that say about religion (or lack thereof)?

No, humans are problematic.


There will always be good people doing good and bad people doing evil. To get a good person to do evil you need religion.

Best regards
Thomas
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flipdewaf
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:52 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Redd wrote:
All of that is in the name of religion, people made religion to be misused, it was the first and most primitive form of governance.


There's no doubt that they'd do the same even without religion, so religion is hardly the cause of the action.

Did you even read the article/know about the religious factions in SA. This is about religion. This was driven by a particular part of Islamic teaching claiming that not only they are better but that the others are so bad they should be killed.

I’d agree that there is a chance that this could be genuine lily against a terrorist group for genuine activities but to say there “there is no doubt” is f*cking stupid!

I guess you think “operation human shield” on south park wasn’t a joke about race too?

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YokoTsuno
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:16 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What about the crimes of Joseph Stalin, or Mao Zedong?
Nazi ideology as well as communism was/is based on the same principles as religion.

In essence one creates an all-knowing entity generally referred to as God, then effordlessly defend that entity and the ideology that comes with it. If this entity is purely imaginative or real and not called God, like in the case of Hilter, Stalin, or Kim or any of those figures is only secondary to the concept of religion. Likewise just as God can't exist without the support of a sufficient critical mass (churches or equivalent), figures like Hitler could have never survived without sufficient critical support from the German population. How do you think a personality like Kim in NK who decides if you are going to live or die sees himself? Most likely God himself.
 
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:40 am

Thomas

If they do bad things how do you determine that they are good people.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:00 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Redd wrote:
All of that is in the name of religion, people made religion to be misused, it was the first and most primitive form of governance.


There's no doubt that they'd do the same even without religion, so religion is hardly the cause of the action.

Did you even read the article/know about the religious factions in SA. This is about religion. This was driven by a particular part of Islamic teaching claiming that not only they are better but that the others are so bad they should be killed.


You do realize that my post was in response to Redd's response to my response to your response several posts ago right?

Redd wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Religion makes good people do bad things.

Fly planes into building.
Blow them selves up in a crowd.
Scare and psychologically damage children in to believing the same as them through fear of eternal pain.
Cutting out the clitoris of young girls to prevent them enjoying intercourse


None of that are due to religion. All of those are due to people misusing religion. There's no doubt that these things won't go away even if there's no religion.

It doesn't prove your hypothesis at all.


All of that is in the name of religion, people made religion to be misused, it was the first and most primitive form of governance.


In any case, I do know about the Sunni-Shia struggle, way better than you do.

Fact is, Shiites are the ones who think they're better than others, simply because they felt that their leader Ali b. Abi Taib is the chosen one, when in fact there were no chosen ones after the Prophet. And driven by that, many of the Shiite practices have gone well away from the true learnings of the Quran to the point that it is bordering on apostasy. It's no wonder why the Sauds are so adamant not to let Shia Islam spread its wings.

Personally I view it as an old tribal struggle for power which is highly nonsensical on both sides.

YokoTsuno wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What about the crimes of Joseph Stalin, or Mao Zedong?
Nazi ideology as well as communism was/is based on the same principles as religion.

In essence one creates an all-knowing entity generally referred to as God, then effordlessly defend that entity and the ideology that comes with it. If this entity is purely imaginative or real and not called God, like in the case of Hilter, Stalin, or Kim or any of those figures is only secondary to the concept of religion. Likewise just as God can't exist without the support of a sufficient critical mass (churches or equivalent), figures like Hitler could have never survived without sufficient critical support from the German population. How do you think a personality like Kim in NK who decides if you are going to live or die sees himself? Most likely God himself.


But it's not religion, principles notwithstanding.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:14 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

There's no doubt that they'd do the same even without religion, so religion is hardly the cause of the action.

Did you even read the article/know about the religious factions in SA. This is about religion. This was driven by a particular part of Islamic teaching claiming that not only they are better but that the others are so bad they should be killed.


You do realize that my post was in response to Redd's response to my response to your response several posts ago right?
yeah but Tom said that he’d seen Karen say that Louise has heard Dave talking about the time someone thought Jane saw Kev with Anthony’s mum begun the bike shed!
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Redd wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

None of that are due to religion. All of those are due to people misusing religion. There's no doubt that these things won't go away even if there's no religion.

It doesn't prove your hypothesis at all.


All of that is in the name of religion, people made religion to be misused, it was the first and most primitive form of governance.


In any case, I do know about the Sunni-Shia struggle, way better than you do.

Fact is, Shiites are the ones who think they're better than others, simply because they felt that their leader Ali b. Abi Taib is the chosen one, when in fact there were no chosen ones after the Prophet. And driven by that, many of the Shiite practices have gone well away from the true learnings of the Quran to the point that it is bordering on apostasy. It's no wonder why the Sauds are so adamant not to let Shia Islam spread its wings.

Personally I view it as an old tribal struggle for power which is highly nonsensical on both sides.

YokoTsuno wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What about the crimes of Joseph Stalin, or Mao Zedong?
Nazi ideology as well as communism was/is based on the same principles as religion.

In essence one creates an all-knowing entity generally referred to as God, then effordlessly defend that entity and the ideology that comes with it. If this entity is purely imaginative or real and not called God, like in the case of Hilter, Stalin, or Kim or any of those figures is only secondary to the concept of religion. Likewise just as God can't exist without the support of a sufficient critical mass (churches or equivalent), figures like Hitler could have never survived without sufficient critical support from the German population. How do you think a personality like Kim in NK who decides if you are going to live or die sees himself? Most likely God himself.


But it's not religion, principles notwithstanding.

Religions being the tool or the driver or the conduit or the cover or the excuse for being a dick bag. Call it a cult or a tribal war if it makes you feel happy but choose something because it’s making you feel good rather than it being true is the problem here to begin with.

Fred


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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:19 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Religions being the tool or the driver or the conduit or the cover or the excuse for being a dick bag. Call it a cult or a tribal war if it makes you feel happy but choose something because it’s making you feel good rather than it being true is the problem here to begin with.


The true problem isn't religion. You making it so doesn't make it true. Dick bags will be dick bags, even if they're atheists as you've demonstrated here.
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Spar
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:21 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Fact is, Shiites are the ones who think they're better than others.


Let me guess: you're Sunni?

Right?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:24 pm

Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Fact is, Shiites are the ones who think they're better than others.


Let me guess: you're Sunni?

Right?


I am a Muslim. There are no Sunnis and Shiites in the Quran.

The only reason why they exists is because of man's weaknesses.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:24 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Religions being the tool or the driver or the conduit or the cover or the excuse for being a dick bag. Call it a cult or a tribal war if it makes you feel happy but choose something because it’s making you feel good rather than it being true is the problem here to begin with.


The true problem isn't religion. You making it so doesn't make it true. Dick bags will be dick bags, even if they're atheists as you've demonstrated here.

People killed, tortured, mutilated in the name of religions from you think religion hasn’t anything to do with it.

If some one murders someone and claims they did it because of the colour of their skin then do you agree they are racist?

You claiming I am a dick bag does not absolve others even if it is true.

Fred


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Spar
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:29 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Fact is, Shiites are the ones who think they're better than others.


Let me guess: you're Sunni?

Right?


I am a Muslim. There are no Sunnis and Shiites in the Quran.

The only reason why they exists is because of man's weaknesses.

And I quote: "Shiites are the ones who......"

You can't see the problem here?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:31 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
People killed, tortured, mutilated in the name of religions from you think religion hasn’t anything to do with it.

If some one murders someone and claims they did it because of the colour of their skin then do you agree they are racist


This is a fallacy. Considering that religion doesn't condone killing & torturing, please tell me how religion has anything to do with it?

Islam doesn't condone violence against innocent civilians, so tell me how 9/11, ISIS etc has anything to do with religion? Just because they say they did it in the name of Islam doesn't make it so. Fact is, I've no doubt in my mind that even in a world without religion they would take the same actions in order to protest the injustices they perceive fell upon them.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:32 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Fact is, Shiites are the ones who think they're better than others.


Let me guess: you're Sunni?

Right?


I am a Muslim. There are no Sunnis and Shiites in the Quran.

The only reason why they exists is because of man's weaknesses.

They exist because their parents procreated, like everyone.

That fact that any one of these people is a Muslim at all I will agree with you could be argued that it is because of human weakness.

I’d be more inclined to say that it’s a by product of evolutionary useful hard wiring to make faster decisions that has some unsavoury side effects. The parts of ones phenotype that mean we are susceptible to lies and cons have also allowed us to evolve to where we are today.

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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:32 pm

Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:

Let me guess: you're Sunni?

Right?


I am a Muslim. There are no Sunnis and Shiites in the Quran.

The only reason why they exists is because of man's weaknesses.

And I quote: "Shiites are the ones who......"

You can't see the problem here?


But that is the truth in my experience mixing with Shiites.
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Spar
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:34 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I am a Muslim. There are no Sunnis and Shiites in the Quran.

The only reason why they exists is because of man's weaknesses.

And I quote: "Shiites are the ones who......"

You can't see the problem here?


But that is the truth in my experience mixing with Shiites.

:checkmark:
There are none so blind as he who will not see.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:36 pm

Spar wrote:
There are none so blind as he who will not see.


You see what you want to see.

So to call others blind is rather hypocritical.
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flipdewaf
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Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:36 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
People killed, tortured, mutilated in the name of religions from you think religion hasn’t anything to do with it.

If some one murders someone and claims they did it because of the colour of their skin then do you agree they are racist


This is a fallacy. Considering that religion doesn't condone killing & torturing, please tell me how religion has anything to do with it?

Islam doesn't condone violence against innocent civilians, so tell me how 9/11, ISIS etc has anything to do with religion? Just because they say they did it in the name of Islam doesn't make it so. Fact is, I've no doubt in my mind that even in a world without religion they would take the same actions in order to protest the injustices they perceive fell upon them.

Wow! It’s bold to tell someone else what their religion is, I guess that’s part of the problem right there!!!

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."


Fred


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Last edited by flipdewaf on Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aesma
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:11 am

Wahhabists are sunni muslims who believe most people (including most muslims) are going to hell because they don't practice the religion correctly. It was born in Saudi Arabia.
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Aaron747
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:14 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Religions being the tool or the driver or the conduit or the cover or the excuse for being a dick bag. Call it a cult or a tribal war if it makes you feel happy but choose something because it’s making you feel good rather than it being true is the problem here to begin with.


The true problem isn't religion. You making it so doesn't make it true. Dick bags will be dick bags, even if they're atheists as you've demonstrated here.


The true problem is power and abuse of that power, whether using religion, class, caste or anything else as a tool.

Most of the Uyghurs being subjugated by China are Sunni, yet KSA and UAE, major Sunni states, just signed a UN statement supporting China’s activities in Xinjiang. If they were truly for religion, that would be incomprehensible as a political statement.
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YokoTsuno
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Islam doesn't condone violence against innocent civilians, so tell me how 9/11, ISIS etc has anything to do with religion?
I am not particularly targeting Islam, Christianity's track record isn't exactly much better but how do you explain this?

"Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, ..."

Putting it in the right context isn't a valid answer since that's purely subjective and applies to the entire writings. So why is this particular text invalid and the rest not?
 
Redd
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:59 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
People killed, tortured, mutilated in the name of religions from you think religion hasn’t anything to do with it.

If some one murders someone and claims they did it because of the colour of their skin then do you agree they are racist


This is a fallacy. Considering that religion doesn't condone killing & torturing, please tell me how religion has anything to do with it?

Islam doesn't condone violence against innocent civilians, so tell me how 9/11, ISIS etc has anything to do with religion? Just because they say they did it in the name of Islam doesn't make it so. Fact is, I've no doubt in my mind that even in a world without religion they would take the same actions in order to protest the injustices they perceive fell upon them.



Pure love..... "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers."

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate."
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:06 am

bennett123 wrote:
Thomas

If they do bad things how do you determine that they are good people.


Statistically. People are the same everywhere, you´ll find high religiosity correlates nicely with most other highs that are not considered "good" (crime, divorce, income and gender inequality).

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
People killed, tortured, mutilated in the name of religions from you think religion hasn’t anything to do with it.

If some one murders someone and claims they did it because of the colour of their skin then do you agree they are racist


This is a fallacy. Considering that religion doesn't condone killing & torturing


What? The way *you* read and understand your religious texts it doesn´t, the way

ISIS


followers read it, it obviously does....

Heck, the old Testament is snuff and torture porn and considered "gods word" in Islam, correct?

Fact is, I've no doubt in my mind that even in a world without religion they would take the same actions in order to protest the injustices they perceive fell upon them.


empirical data makes that seem quite unlikely to be true and rather wishful thinking.

YokoTsuno wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
What about the crimes of Joseph Stalin, or Mao Zedong?
Nazi ideology as well as communism was/is based on the same principles as religion.


Replace "Religion" with "believing shit without or against evidence" and you are on the right track.

Plus of course Hitler wasnt an atheist....

best regards
Thomas
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slider
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:58 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
People killed, tortured, mutilated in the name of religions from you think religion hasn’t anything to do with it.

If some one murders someone and claims they did it because of the colour of their skin then do you agree they are racist


This is a fallacy. Considering that religion doesn't condone killing & torturing, please tell me how religion has anything to do with it?

Islam doesn't condone violence against innocent civilians,


Oh yes it bloody well does. Go read your own sacred texts.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:09 am

Redd wrote:
Pure love..... "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers."

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate."


A quote without context. Put it into context, which includes taking into account when it is made, then the true meaning will arise.

In any case, you quote hideously - 9:5 is quoted as such

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

9:5 is supposed to be read with 9:4

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

You should have also quoted 9:6

"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know."

As well as 9:7

"How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

Considering that the verse was said to have been revealed during the expedition to Tabruk which is to defend the land against a Byzantine invasion, it's no wonder why the verses may sound violent when taken out of context.

Not that this is relevant to this thread.

https://quran.com/9/1-11

slider wrote:
Oh yes it bloody well does. Go read your own sacred texts.


Case in point above. You may think it's bloody, but that's because you see it out of context.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:14 am

tommy1808 wrote:
What? The way *you* read and understand your religious texts it doesn´t, the way

ISIS


followers read it, it obviously does....


And that makes it correct? No it doesn't.

tommy1808 wrote:
empirical data makes that seem quite unlikely to be true and rather wishful thinking.


Empirical data without context will prove anything.

There are many things that goes beyond empirical data. It is arrogant to think that everything can be explained with empirical data. Our knowledge is but a drop in the ocean to be honest.

YokoTsuno wrote:
I am not particularly targeting Islam, Christianity's track record isn't exactly much better but how do you explain this?

"Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, ..."

Putting it in the right context isn't a valid answer since that's purely subjective and applies to the entire writings. So why is this particular text invalid and the rest not?


Punishment in this context doesn't connote punishment from a legal sense. It can mean many things, like you getting critically ill, or being in an accident, or getting robbed, or plenty of other negative things that happens in every day life.

It does not condone violence in the least bit.

Which is why context matters. And most detractors of Islam often miss that.
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tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:06 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
What? The way *you* read and understand your religious texts it doesn´t, the way

ISIS


followers read it, it obviously does....


And that makes it correct? No it doesn't.


Ethically or theologically?

Religion can lead to the horrible things it pretty much inadvertently leads to (source: History) because there is no evidance whatsoever to proof who is right and who isn´t. Like with all made up stuff that isn´t checked vs. reality (doctrine in existing communism, "Jews will replace us", and so on).

tommy1808 wrote:
empirical data makes that seem quite unlikely to be true and rather wishful thinking.


Empirical data without context will prove anything.


With a large enough sample size empirical date and statistics are a pretty good way to find out what is true, and often the only way to find out what is true..... reality on its fundamental level is probabilistic.

There are many things that goes beyond empirical data.


i haven´t seen anything beyond empirical data, and neither have you.

It is arrogant to think that everything can be explained with empirical data.


well, it is good to have a theory handy to figure out why the data is the way it is, but there is nothing arrogant about it, as imperical data has, when it comes to truth value, left religion behind before Islam was even invented. Setbacks in between happened, and they happened because of religion. Christianity threw mankind hundreds of years back and put progress on hold for the better part of a millennium, and when Christianity, dragged against its will, opened up to science again, Islam slammed the door shut....... that is how, despite having some really good universities and education programs the grand total of Muslim science Nobel laureates is: Three.

Our knowledge is but a drop in the ocean to be honest.


science knows pretty well what it doesn´t know, that knowledge is always provisional. Religion is claiming to know stuff you don´t know, usually without admitting even the possibility of being wrong.

It can mean many things, like you getting critically ill, or being in an accident, or getting robbed, or plenty of other negative things that happens in every day life.


Yay, a prediction we can test against empirical data....... (and by the way, in part we have, its horse sh*t). The only additional life risk that an apostate has is getting murdered by people that don´t subscribe to your interpretation of the same religious text.

best regards
Thomas
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YokoTsuno
Posts: 335
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:07 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.
9:5 But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
"

9:5 is supposed to be read with 9:4

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

You should have also quoted 9:6

"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.".
Quoting the full text makes it even more confusing to me.

9.5 Why should polytheists, atheists or whoever the text in these scriptures refer to repent in the first place? Isn't this the crux of the problem where religion, Islam in this case, claims superiority?

9.6 Correct me if my interpretation is wrong, but I take it that if one party doesn't agree with the terms of a treaty, killing is justified. Doesn't this only confirm that ISIS is doing the right thing since in their view the terms in the treaty are probably not correct. It also poses one important question that Islam can only coexist with other civilisations if the right terms and conditions are negotiated. So what are these terms?

9.7 Isn't it illogical to claim validity of a text (They are people who do not know) written centuries ago when the vast majority of the population was illiterate over the reasoning of modern educated societies?
 
Redd
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:07 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Redd wrote:
Pure love..... "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers."

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate."


A quote without context. Put it into context, which includes taking into account when it is made, then the true meaning will arise.

In any case, you quote hideously - 9:5 is quoted as such

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

9:5 is supposed to be read with 9:4

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

You should have also quoted 9:6

"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know."

As well as 9:7

"How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

Considering that the verse was said to have been revealed during the expedition to Tabruk which is to defend the land against a Byzantine invasion, it's no wonder why the verses may sound violent when taken out of context.

Not that this is relevant to this thread.

https://quran.com/9/1-11

slider wrote:
Oh yes it bloody well does. Go read your own sacred texts.


Case in point above. You may think it's bloody, but that's because you see it out of context.


It is bloody, basically it's ''kill them in this case, spare them in this case'' very open to interpretation, and there are many variables that affect interpretation. Regardless, it encourages murder and it's savage just like every other religion.
 
Jetty
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:38 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Redd wrote:
Pure love..... "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers."

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate."


A quote without context. Put it into context, which includes taking into account when it is made, then the true meaning will arise.

In any case, you quote hideously - 9:5 is quoted as such

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

9:5 is supposed to be read with 9:4

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

You should have also quoted 9:6

"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know."

As well as 9:7

"How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

Even if we take all that context into the equation it still means that a polytheist that doesn’t give zakah and wants protection nor a treaty should be slayed. This kind of evil doesn’t rhyme with a ‘peaceful religion’ me thinks.

Considering that the verse was said to have been revealed during the expedition to Tabruk which is to defend the land against a Byzantine invasion, it's no wonder why the verses may sound violent.

“We need to remember that circumstances don’t make a person, they reveal a person.”
Emma Jameson


^Apparently applies to Mohammed as well.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Islam doesn't condone violence against innocent civilians, so tell me how 9/11, ISIS etc has anything to do with religion?
Even The Islamic State agrees with this. The problem lies with the interpretation of ‘innocent’. According to many Muslims just having sex with the wrong person, denouncing Islam or saying wrong things makes that the protections granted to ‘innocent civilians’ don’t apply because you are guilty.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:55 am

YokoTsuno wrote:

Redd wrote:

Jetty wrote:


Again, as I've stated it needs to be put into context, especially the timeline on which the chapter & verse is revealed. In this case, it was during the expedition to Tabuk in defense of a rumoured Byzantine invasion. The verse about the polytheist who repent are talking about those who pledge allegiance to the Muslim forces but who then became turncoats and ally themselves with the enemy of the Muslim forces. It's hardly a call to kill all polytheists.

To use a modern example, it's like America being allies with Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war, and then enemies during the Gulf War.

Jetty wrote:
Even The Islamic State agrees with this. The problem lies with the interpretation of ‘innocent’. According to many Muslims just having sex with the wrong person, denouncing Islam or saying wrong things makes that the protections granted to ‘innocent civilians’ don’t apply because you are guilty.


Unless they undergo a judgement process under Islamic law, they remain innocent until otherwise.

The people working in the World Trade Center and even in the Pentagon were innocent bystanders and their murder by the terrorists is unjust & un-Islamic.
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tommy1808
Posts: 10394
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:39 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The people working in the World Trade Center and even in the Pentagon were innocent bystanders and their murder by the terrorists is unjust & un-Islamic.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

best regards
Thomas
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TTailedTiger
Posts: 1147
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:12 am

ltbewr wrote:
How about the 1000's executed for crimes in China, a major trading partner of the rest of the world or the dozens the USA has executed in the last several years including with the use of drugs with cruel and painful deaths. Yes, the Saudi government is cruel in its awful way, but other countries are not much better in their own way.


You are really comparing the US to Saudi Arabia and China? We execute people after they have been offered a plea deal for life in prison, given a trial, numerous appeals, judicial reviews, and the option for the governor to commute the sentence. That all takes about 20 years. And we reserve that sentence only for premeditated murder. Japan has the death penalty too but most people regard them as a top tier nation.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:


How does it even relate to this?

It's not a fallacy, but fact that killing bystanders who doesn't attack you, or threaten your faith, is not part of Islamic tenet. It's even part of Islamic military jurisprudence.
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tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:53 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:


How does it even relate to this?

It's not a fallacy, but fact that killing bystanders who doesn't attack you, or threaten your faith, is not part of Islamic tenet. It's even part of Islamic military jurisprudence.


They

a) consider themselves devout muslims
b) you say it isn´t part of Islam, hence they are
c) "no true muslims" ...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2747
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:56 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Redd wrote:
Pure love..... "cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers."

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate."


A quote without context. Put it into context, which includes taking into account when it is made, then the true meaning will arise.

In any case, you quote hideously - 9:5 is quoted as such

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."


So Kill them unless they agree do agree in your particular sky daddy, then be merciful.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

9:5 is supposed to be read with 9:4

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

So only don't murder them if they agree with you

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

You should have also quoted 9:6

"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know."


So take someone in and protect them only if you can win them over to help with the murdering

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As well as 9:7

"How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."
Love through fear is not love, love through fear is coercion and mental salvery.
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Considering that the verse was said to have been revealed during the expedition to Tabruk which is to defend the land against a Byzantine invasion, it's no wonder why the verses may sound violent when taken out of context.


Interesting, then why don't you ignore it if it was from a different time and put it in to a context that works for a modern society, like what a half decent moral system would do not a series of easily misinterpreted moral pronouncements, which both you and the murderous muslims seem to think they have interpreted correctly and it must be the others who are wrong.

All these things that you bring up give rules as to when you shouldn't kill somebody, any half decent human should see that you don't need to have rules as when its not acceptable, that should be the default surely? If you are a good person be, a good person, you don't need woo and to justify why you are good
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Not that this is relevant to this thread.

https://quran.com/9/1-11

slider wrote:
Oh yes it bloody well does. Go read your own sacred texts.


Case in point above. You may think it's bloody, but that's because you see it out of context.
[/quote]It's all out of context!!! Its fiction!
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:17 am

tommy1808 wrote:
They

a) consider themselves devout muslims
b) you say it isn´t part of Islam, hence they are
c) "no true muslims" ...


I said killing of civilians is un-Islamic. You made the "no true Scotsman" association.

Just because one argument fits a fallacy doesn't mean it is actually a fallacy.

flipdewaf wrote:
So Kill them unless they agree do agree in your particular sky daddy, then be merciful.


Nope. Out of context.

flipdewaf wrote:
So only don't murder them if they agree with you


Nope. Out of context.

flipdewaf wrote:
So take someone in and protect them only if you can win them over to help with the murdering


Nope. Out of context.

flipdewaf wrote:
Interesting, then why don't you ignore it if it was from a different time and put it in to a context that works for a modern society, like what a half decent moral system would do not a series of easily misinterpreted moral pronouncements, which both you and the murderous muslims seem to think they have interpreted correctly and it must be the others who are wrong.


Why? It's perfectly usable in modern society. If you don't declare war on me and my faith, take up arms & attack me, then I don't have to defend myself by force which may induce maiming or death.

flipdewaf wrote:
It's all out of context!!! Its fiction!


Just because you believe it's fiction, doesn't make it so.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
They

a) consider themselves devout muslims
b) you say it isn´t part of Islam, hence they are
c) "no true muslims" ...


I said killing of civilians is un-Islamic.
What gives you the authority to say what is and isnt "Islamic"
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You made the "no true Scotsman" association.

Just because one argument fits a fallacy doesn't mean it is actually a fallacy.

flipdewaf wrote:
So Kill them unless they agree do agree in your particular sky daddy, then be merciful.


Nope. Out of context.

flipdewaf wrote:
So only don't murder them if they agree with you


Nope. Out of context.
In your opinion, which has no more validity to the question at hand than any other person that claims to know how to interpret an ancient text
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:
So take someone in and protect them only if you can win them over to help with the murdering


Nope. Out of context.
In your opinion, which has no more validity to the question at hand than any other person that claims to know how to interpret an ancient text
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:
Interesting, then why don't you ignore it if it was from a different time and put it in to a context that works for a modern society, like what a half decent moral system would do not a series of easily misinterpreted moral pronouncements, which both you and the murderous muslims seem to think they have interpreted correctly and it must be the others who are wrong.


Why? It's perfectly usable in modern society. If you don't declare war on me and my faith, take up arms & attack me, then I don't have to defend myself by force which may induce maiming or death.
You statement seems a totally moral one but seems at odds with what you have written and posted from the quran, one must wonder what is stopping th quaran being written so that it actually says what you just said?
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:
It's all out of context!!! Its fiction!


Just because you believe it's fiction, doesn't make it so.
I have no reason to believe it to be true, therefor I will treat it as if it isn't, You have any evidence for it being true?

You sir seem to be a totally morally good person trying to make a work of fiction fit their moral standards rather than just accepting that there is no evidence to believe it to be true and taking personal responsibility for moral actions.

Fred
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tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:35 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
They

a) consider themselves devout muslims
b) you say it isn´t part of Islam, hence they are
c) "no true muslims" ...


I said killing of civilians is un-Islamic..


by *your*, and granted most others, *interpretation* of the *same* religious text it is. They will violently disagree with *your* interpretation, insist that you are wrong and that your holy fable does not just not ban this killing of civilians, but requires it.

Since no-one gets to decide who is and isn´t a "true muslim", everyone that considers him/herself a Muslim is one. And everyone is a Muslim is motivated by the same book.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
slider
Posts: 7334
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Re: Saudi Arabia beheads 37

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:09 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
They

a) consider themselves devout muslims
b) you say it isn´t part of Islam, hence they are
c) "no true muslims" ...


I said killing of civilians is un-Islamic. You made the "no true Scotsman" association.

Just because one argument fits a fallacy doesn't mean it is actually a fallacy.

flipdewaf wrote:
So Kill them unless they agree do agree in your particular sky daddy, then be merciful.


Nope. Out of context.

flipdewaf wrote:
So only don't murder them if they agree with you


Nope. Out of context.

flipdewaf wrote:
So take someone in and protect them only if you can win them over to help with the murdering


Nope. Out of context.

flipdewaf wrote:
Interesting, then why don't you ignore it if it was from a different time and put it in to a context that works for a modern society, like what a half decent moral system would do not a series of easily misinterpreted moral pronouncements, which both you and the murderous muslims seem to think they have interpreted correctly and it must be the others who are wrong.


Why? It's perfectly usable in modern society. If you don't declare war on me and my faith, take up arms & attack me, then I don't have to defend myself by force which may induce maiming or death.

flipdewaf wrote:
It's all out of context!!! Its fiction!


Just because you believe it's fiction, doesn't make it so.


Killing of civilians is un-islamic? LMAO!!!

How do you explain the last 14 centuries of doing just that then???

Yarmuk, Hattin, Manzikert, Constantinople, Tours, Vienna, no matter the battle, carnage has ensued. Murder, rape, torture, institutionalized slavery. In losses and victories, the barbarism is apparent and very well documented for all the world to see (but still selectively ignores). Whether you call them Arabs, Moors, Ottomans, Tartars, they're all jihadists.

So many chronicles of innocents being tortured and violated, it’s difficult to enumerate, in reality. When Constantinople fell, they took possession of one of Christendom’s greatest and oldest basilicas (a thousand years old at time of capture), the invaders raped women and children on the altar, including nuns. And the Grand Duke’s daughter was violated on the altar of Hagia Sophia. Innocent.

This repeated itself at the Cathedral of Cordoba, and St. John the Baptist (later the mosque of Damascus), and numerous other sites that were either torn down or converted, but not before being defiled and the people debased. Innocent.

Hundreds of thousands sold into slavery. Innocent.

For fourteen centuries—1,400+ years—this has been the norm, not the exception. And the scholarship on it is clear from both Muslim texts and non-muslim testimony and narrations.

“Give no quarter to infidels but cut their throats. Then you shall know that this is the command of the great God.”

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