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Super80Fan
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:10 pm

That's unfortunately what you get for flying Frontier, they are a garbage airline well below the standards of Spirit and Allegiant.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:53 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This is a situation that the truth is probably in the middle. Not making any excuses for Frontier.

I bet the FA did give a "not my job" answer/attitude
I bet the customer did create a scene on purpose

Both parties should have handled this better. It was pretty unacceptable for Frontier to not be apologizing, this lady should have not been disruptive.


I saw the video the lady was calm and did curse. She was not disruptive.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's S

Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:24 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

He's not taking sides, the part he's talking about is the business dispute between Frontier Airlines and the passenger.

The arrest (crime) is trespassing( misdemeanor committed in the officers presence) He's asking her to get off the plane she didnt, and that's why the arrest took place.

That begs the question: is it really trespassing when you have paid to be on the premises? You pay for a service (being transported from point A to point B on date D & hour H on an airplane belonging to company C); all those letters are respected by the passenger, then an employee of C says "get out" and you have to without protesting? You have the right to be there as you paid for it; that's not trespassing.


Yes its still trespassing as wjcandee explained in detail above.

Well, still disagreed it was considered trespassing. The right to be on the aircraft was revoked in an arbitrary manner, by someone who acted as the judge, jury and executioner.
The passenger's lawyers are going to have a field day with Frontier's lawyers; this is not going to end well for Frontier.

And, by the way, it's easy to say "as so and so explained", when said person answered way after my post...
 
Spar
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:23 am

Frontier better hope that no one with an outlook such as mine is on the civil jury hearing her lawsuit.

That woman had no choice but to speak up and demand that the seat be cleaned. And she had every right to be pissed off and to display it after she was kicked off the plane.

Just because you can't afford your own 757 like Trump doesn't mean that the airlines should get to treat you like crap.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:43 am

OccupiedLav wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Is anyone stunned to learn that the passenger was a woman of color, and the FAs and arresting officers all white?


Really? You're really going there?


If by "going there" you mean "calling out racism," then yes. As I hope we all would be.

OccupiedLav wrote:
I hate seeing ignorant comments like these.


Pray tell us what makes it "ignorant," o wise one.

BTW: is someone forcing you to read comments you hate so much?

OccupiedLav wrote:
There have been many cases where the same thing happens to white people.


Sure, but it happens to people of color more.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:46 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
It was pretty unacceptable for Frontier to not be apologizing, this lady should have not been disruptive.


The lady was not disruptive *in the least*. And be honest: would you lob that accusation at her if she were white?
 
Oliver2020
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's S

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:49 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That begs the question: is it really trespassing when you have paid to be on the premises? You pay for a service (being transported from point A to point B on date D & hour H on an airplane belonging to company C); all those letters are respected by the passenger, then an employee of C says "get out" and you have to without protesting? You have the right to be there as you paid for it; that's not trespassing.


Yes its still trespassing as wjcandee explained in detail above.

Well, still disagreed it was considered trespassing. The right to be on the aircraft was revoked in an arbitrary manner, by someone who acted as the judge, jury and executioner.
The passenger's lawyers are going to have a field day with Frontier's lawyers; this is not going to end well for Frontier.

And, by the way, it's easy to say "as so and so explained", when said person answered way after my post...


After rewatching the video an edited video I might add, there's a lot more to this story than what's being told. A full video would include the vomit, her discussion, argument, whatever happened between her and the flight attendants, and other airline associates if there were any. In other words a video that starts from A to Z not a video that starts at f skips to j then k and ends at s. Long story short there's 3 sides to this story, her story, the airlines story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As far as the cops, I'm only commenting on when they ask her to leave and she did not leave, that is considered trespassing. As I said earlier, the cops receive a radio call, they are not there for the business dispute. All they care about is keeping the peace. If the airline says they don't want the person on their plane, the officer's job is to give one last attempt and asks the person to leave if they don't, they are arrested for trespassing.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:53 am

That was an operational/crew scheduling issue that was certainly mishandled, but the passenger also wasn't in his right mind. He ran back on the plane like a crazy person.


Only after he was bashed in the head, face planted on the arm rest, according to some reports, and lost teeth from the impact. Dr. Dao was more than lucid and calm before the rent a cops assaulted him. C'mon man, let's get the facts straight.

In the instant case, the woman in question doesn't appear rude, out of control, or aggressive. It certainly looks like what we have here is a power mad FA with a chip on his/her shoulder. This should have never happened. Period.
 
bennett123
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:20 am

So if I pay my fare, the airline can then order me off, (for no reason) with the cops around to throw me off.

What a wonderful system.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 112
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:00 am

[quote="bennett123"]So if I pay my fare, the airline can then order me off, (for no reason) with the cops around to throw me off.

What a wonderful system.[/quote


What proof do you have that makes you say "no reason." The video is not proof since it does not start from the very beginning (vomit on the seat) and run CONTINUOUSLY until she is booked in jail with no edits whatsoever. Videos recorded and edited by other people do not tell the entire story. In this case, the edited video shows the woman being arrested at the podium, then standing in the airplane talking to someone, then sitting in the seat talking to the cops, next we see her at the podium again being arrested. Are you going to say that all these people teleported? Because that's the only explanation I can think of. There is obviously more to the story.
 
bennett123
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:13 am

Equally you have no proof.

Your statement is pure supposition.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1083
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's S

Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:27 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Yes its still trespassing as wjcandee explained in detail above.

Well, still disagreed it was considered trespassing. The right to be on the aircraft was revoked in an arbitrary manner, by someone who acted as the judge, jury and executioner.
The passenger's lawyers are going to have a field day with Frontier's lawyers; this is not going to end well for Frontier.

And, by the way, it's easy to say "as so and so explained", when said person answered way after my post...


After rewatching the video an edited video I might add, there's a lot more to this story than what's being told. A full video would include the vomit, her discussion, argument, whatever happened between her and the flight attendants, and other airline associates if there were any. In other words a video that starts from A to Z not a video that starts at f skips to j then k and ends at s. Long story short there's 3 sides to this story, her story, the airlines story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As far as the cops, I'm only commenting on when they ask her to leave and she did not leave, that is considered trespassing. As I said earlier, the cops receive a radio call, they are not there for the business dispute. All they care about is keeping the peace. If the airline says they don't want the person on their plane, the officer's job is to give one last attempt and asks the person to leave if they don't, they are arrested for trespassing.

The problem is that, when you paid to be on a plane, being asked to be removed by the same entity you paid to be on said plane would be a breach of contract and should entails immediate and unconditional reimbursement.
A company has the right to have you removed from their private property pending you have no legal right to remain on it; but then again, when you paid to be on said property, and until a judge issues a judgement that you can no longer remain on property, then you have all legal rights to remain on property. Only a judge can rule against you.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:45 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So if I pay my fare, the airline can then order me off, (for no reason) with the cops around to throw me off.

What a wonderful system.


I mean, yeah, the airline can revoke your permission to be on their plane. And they should have the right to do that.

The problem is that they have stupidly and recklessly delegated this important responsibility to the lowest-level customer facing employees, who shouldn't be expected to exercise their judgment in the manner that the airline CEO would. Removing pax from aircraft needs to be a decision made at a higher level of authority. To me, it should be only the station manager who can order it when on the ground, and the FAs' role should not be to report "so and so was rude to me, and DISOBEYED ME!!!! Harumph!", but rather the should report the problem. "35B's kid sat in a vomit covered seat and she's demanding it be fixed, rudely."

Instead of telling people they can't be mad, the airline, like any other hospitality company, needs to take significant initial steps to make the person not mad.

And a lot of decisions seem to be driven by the notion that we need to get the customer off so we can depart the aircraft on time. The problem is that in every one of these cases that I have seen, plenty of time is spent calling the cops, having the cops interact with the person, and having the person and their belongings dragged off the plane. Now THAT's going to be a delay.

A sympathetic response from the beginning would have avoided this controversy in its entirety. Telling a paying customer something is "Not my job" should end up being the last thing you get to say on that particular job. It may not be your job to DO IT, but it is sure as hell your job, as the company representative delegated to interact with the customer, to OWN THE PROBLEM and figure out a SOLUTION. Here, a quick, "Oh my gosh, let me notify the gate and we'll get it taken care of as soon as possible. I am SO SORRY." Problem solved. Saying something is "Not my job" is actually saying, "I'm not going to help you." It's not saying "It's not my job to clean the stuff up but I will certainly help you by getting someone whose job it is to come and do it." It is saying, "Oh, well. Too bad so sad. Deal with it yourself." It is dismissive and condescending. It's a power trip. It's somebody who should no longer be working for that airline. Had one of my people done that, it really would be their last day on the job. Because it reflects a rejection of the fundamental principle that all of us are responsible for taking care of our customers.

When I ran restaurants, I had to deal with issues like this all the time (well, not vomit on my chairs, per se, mercifully), and my people were instructed to bring these issues to me. Resolved every single one of those restaurant issues without having to throw anybody out. But if I had left it to the servers to eject customers who were mean or rude or angry or "disobedient", we'd have been frog-marching customers and their kids out the door every weekend. Same thing in the hotel business; only rarely is it necessary to remove a person from your hotel, particularly over something like a room condition issue. You own the problem and find a fix, even when you're full -- in that case, you walk the customer to a better hotel and pay it if necessary. Bars are different, but even there, I could most of the time get someone to leave of their own steam and be welcome to come back another day.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's S

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:47 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
The problem is that, when you paid to be on a plane, being asked to be removed by the same entity you paid to be on said plane would be a breach of contract and should entails immediate and unconditional reimbursement.
A company has the right to have you removed from their private property pending you have no legal right to remain on it; but then again, when you paid to be on said property, and until a judge issues a judgement that you can no longer remain on property, then you have all legal rights to remain on property. Only a judge can rule against you.

I fear whilst that sounds very noble, it is too simplistic.
In general terms, any owner of property offering a service should be able to remove you from their property providing they commit to an appropriate refund.
AFAIK in most jurisdictions, trespass counts as a criminal act.
The fact that you may have a contract (written or verbal) allowing you to be on that land is predominantly a civil matter.

Regarding airlines and aircraft we enter a whole world of problems because the "contract" does not usually permit you to be on any specific aircraft.
The airline is only contracted to transport you from A to B in a timely fashion, by whatever means they see fit.
For example; they could put 300 pax on one 747, or two groups of 150 pax each on two 737s. Or they could charter six Greyhound buses.

Hence I cannot see your legal argument for any passenger demanding a right to remain on a specific aircraft, nor the requirement that only a judge can have you removed.
The acid test would be for Frontier to invite every other passenger to leave the aircraft, and place them on board a "spare" 737 for their flight. This leaves you sitting in a seat that is going nowhere, whilst at the same time trespassing on airline property.

Clearly it is in the best interests of the airline to ensure that everyone is happy, as far as is possible.

And in the real world, if you are invited to leave this seat on this aircraft that is shortly flying to Chicago, you are probably correct to infer that whatever plane you do finally end up on, it will not arrive in Chicago at the scheduled time as specified in your contract. For that reason you have a legitimate (civil) complaint that will require compensation. I do not see this as entitling you to commit trespass.

That's my two cents, but the US legal system is nothing if not perverse, and if you asked a hundred lawyers for an answer, at least half would volunteer to take your case. :dollarsign:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:21 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Equally you have no proof.

Your statement is pure supposition.



The statement I'm making is that the video doesn't show the entire story. Any one who sees it will agree to that. With that being said, I have no proof, you have no proof, no one here has proof. The only people who know the real story is the lady and the flight attendant. I'll leave it at that.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's S

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:39 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Well, still disagreed it was considered trespassing. The right to be on the aircraft was revoked in an arbitrary manner, by someone who acted as the judge, jury and executioner.
The passenger's lawyers are going to have a field day with Frontier's lawyers; this is not going to end well for Frontier.

And, by the way, it's easy to say "as so and so explained", when said person answered way after my post...


After rewatching the video an edited video I might add, there's a lot more to this story than what's being told. A full video would include the vomit, her discussion, argument, whatever happened between her and the flight attendants, and other airline associates if there were any. In other words a video that starts from A to Z not a video that starts at f skips to j then k and ends at s. Long story short there's 3 sides to this story, her story, the airlines story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As far as the cops, I'm only commenting on when they ask her to leave and she did not leave, that is considered trespassing. As I said earlier, the cops receive a radio call, they are not there for the business dispute. All they care about is keeping the peace. If the airline says they don't want the person on their plane, the officer's job is to give one last attempt and asks the person to leave if they don't, they are arrested for trespassing.

The problem is that, when you paid to be on a plane, being asked to be removed by the same entity you paid to be on said plane would be a breach of contract and should entails immediate and unconditional reimbursement.
A company has the right to have you removed from their private property pending you have no legal right to remain on it; but then again, when you paid to be on said property, and until a judge issues a judgement that you can no longer remain on property, then you have all legal rights to remain on property. Only a judge can rule against you.


I tried to explain to you twice the reason of her arrest which is trespassing. Now you are trying to bring up another point which is the business side of the story, that is a civil matter and will be taken to civil court. The trespassing is criminal therefore it will be handled in a criminal court. The video shows absolutely nothing not to mention it's EDITED and the article is her side of the story and the airline side of the story which contradicts one another, meaning someone is not telling the truth. You say the airline breached the contract but that part of the video is MISSING. No one here knows the entire story. Based on the video... If you want to base everything on that... She got teleported from the airplane to the podium. ( since you don't seem to understand anything let me explain to you that I am being sarcastic about the teleportation). I'm not taking side I'm simply saying that nobody knows ectactly what happened..... There is no evidence about what was said the video shows absolutely nothing.
 
bennett123
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:26 pm

Oliver 2020

Fair point.

I could have been less assertive.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:46 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Equally you have no proof.

Your statement is pure supposition.



The statement I'm making is that the video doesn't show the entire story. Any one who sees it will agree to that. With that being said, I have no proof, you have no proof, no one here has proof. The only people who know the real story is the lady and the flight attendant. I'll leave it at that.


And the 10 or so passengers in a position to see the whole thing with crystal clarity.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1083
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's S

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:01 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

After rewatching the video an edited video I might add, there's a lot more to this story than what's being told. A full video would include the vomit, her discussion, argument, whatever happened between her and the flight attendants, and other airline associates if there were any. In other words a video that starts from A to Z not a video that starts at f skips to j then k and ends at s. Long story short there's 3 sides to this story, her story, the airlines story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As far as the cops, I'm only commenting on when they ask her to leave and she did not leave, that is considered trespassing. As I said earlier, the cops receive a radio call, they are not there for the business dispute. All they care about is keeping the peace. If the airline says they don't want the person on their plane, the officer's job is to give one last attempt and asks the person to leave if they don't, they are arrested for trespassing.

The problem is that, when you paid to be on a plane, being asked to be removed by the same entity you paid to be on said plane would be a breach of contract and should entails immediate and unconditional reimbursement.
A company has the right to have you removed from their private property pending you have no legal right to remain on it; but then again, when you paid to be on said property, and until a judge issues a judgement that you can no longer remain on property, then you have all legal rights to remain on property. Only a judge can rule against you.


I tried to explain to you twice the reason of her arrest which is trespassing. Now you are trying to bring up another point which is the business side of the story, that is a civil matter and will be taken to civil court. The trespassing is criminal therefore it will be handled in a criminal court. The video shows absolutely nothing not to mention it's EDITED and the article is her side of the story and the airline side of the story which contradicts one another, meaning someone is not telling the truth. You say the airline breached the contract but that part of the video is MISSING. No one here knows the entire story. Based on the video... If you want to base everything on that... She got teleported from the airplane to the podium. ( since you don't seem to understand anything let me explain to you that I am being sarcastic about the teleportation). I'm not taking side I'm simply saying that nobody knows ectactly what happened..... There is no evidence about what was said the video shows absolutely nothing.

The problem is that, on the sole word of a Flight Attendant asking Law Enforcement Officers, someone all of a sudden becomes a criminal trespasser. THIS is the problem, this is what was highlighted at the very beginning of the thread.
That person had a right to be on premises, she had contracted the airline to carry her, the airline issued her a boarding pass to be on that plane and let her on said plane. Now, all of a sudden, because a FA who had a bad day or a little too much attitude decided she will not deal with the passenger's request for bodily fluid to be removed from where she was assigned to be, she becomes a criminal trespasser and has no choice but to comply. LEO are not even listening to the passenger's story, they just believe blindly the FA.
As others have said, this is Dr Dao all over again. I hope she sues Frontier and win big.
 
TSS
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:25 am

wjcandee wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Equally you have no proof.

Your statement is pure supposition.


The statement I'm making is that the video doesn't show the entire story. Any one who sees it will agree to that. With that being said, I have no proof, you have no proof, no one here has proof. The only people who know the real story is the lady and the flight attendant. I'll leave it at that.


And the 10 or so passengers in a position to see the whole thing with crystal clarity.


In this day and age at least half of those 10 people would have had their phones out recording the incident. Where are their videos? Where is the footage of at least some of the initial confrontation between the passenger and the flight attendant? Where is the footage taken between when the passenger was talking calmly to the police inside the plane and when she was shrieking like a harpy at the podium outside the plane? The most important parts of the video, the parts that could have supported the passenger's position in all this, have been edited out which casts serious doubt on the passenger's version of the story.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
Bradin
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:06 am

TSS wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

The statement I'm making is that the video doesn't show the entire story. Any one who sees it will agree to that. With that being said, I have no proof, you have no proof, no one here has proof. The only people who know the real story is the lady and the flight attendant. I'll leave it at that.


And the 10 or so passengers in a position to see the whole thing with crystal clarity.


In this day and age at least half of those 10 people would have had their phones out recording the incident. Where are their videos? Where is the footage of at least some of the initial confrontation between the passenger and the flight attendant? Where is the footage taken between when the passenger was talking calmly to the police inside the plane and when she was shrieking like a harpy at the podium outside the plane? The most important parts of the video, the parts that could have supported the passenger's position in all this, have been edited out which casts serious doubt on the passenger's version of the story.


The very fact there are not tons of videos floating around is a decent indicator the lady was probably civil, cordial, and those around her felt the request made by her was extremely reasonable. Likely where the recording started is because people started realizing the reasonable request was not being honored, was taking an extremely long time, or there were escalations. If the lady was going ballistic, making threatening or unreasonable comments, there would be hundreds of videos on YouTube.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
Posts: 7763
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Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:11 am

Bradin wrote:
The very fact there are not tons of videos floating around is a decent indicator the lady was probably civil, cordial, and those around her felt the request made by her was extremely reasonable. Likely where the recording started is because people started realizing the reasonable request was not being honored, was taking an extremely long time, or there were escalations. If the lady was going ballistic, making threatening or unreasonable comments, there would be hundreds of videos on YouTube.


Interesting point. When people are acting as polite as Mac and Tosh ("You first" "No, you first" "Indubitably!"), there's nothing to video. It would be:

"Oh, Stewardess, there seems to be some fetid fluid on my offspring's seat; would you be kind enough to communicate this to those who would render it acceptably-clean?"

"Why, certainly, Madam, a thousand pardons! I will see to it right away!"

But when a woman tells the whole plane to kiss her tukus and moons everyone, out come the cell phones. So the absence of any mooning video suggests that our victim was civil.

Here, the cell phones came out when the dragging was about to begin.
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Frontier FA Has Woman Arrested For Complaining About Vomit on Child's Seat

Thu May 02, 2019 1:23 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Oliver 2020

Fair point.

I could have been less assertive.


I would like to apologize if any of my comments offended you. Most notably the sarcasm.

Forgive for grammar in the post and the correct words as I'm barely starting my 1st cup of coffee.

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