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Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:34 pm

seb146 wrote:
He surrounded himself with people who met Russians. He held meetings with Russians in his own building. We know those meetings were not about adopting babies. There are also ties between him and Russian banks. There is an awful lot of smoke and an awful lot of there there......

After 2.5 years, unlimited resources, and tens of millions of dollars there is... smoke. Talk about tilting at windmills.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16809
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:14 am

stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
If there was evidence that would meet probable cause for the crime of obstruction, Mueller would have said so and he didn't.


Not necessarily so, due to DOJ limits. Reading comprehension issues aside, you can’t simply make something fact by saying it repeatedly, especially when Mueller’s statements in the report and presser and both 1973 and 2000 OLC memoranda say otherwise.

No. I think I'll go back to this gem you posted. Attacking me because actual law differs from your opinion certainly isn't a way to debate something. Mueller lied. Pure and simple. He said his report was his final word and then he walked out the nonsense that he couldn't make a finding because of DOJ policy. The policy does not prohibit Mueller from making a determination of probable cause to request an indictment.

Extrajudicial statements (opinions) that Mueller made in volume II carry the same weight as hearsay evidence and should not have been included in the report because they don't support burden of proof. A prosecutors job is not to exonerate/prove innocence, it is to find a burden of proof for a crime. This is because presumed innocence according to the Constitution is a given. I thought Sidney Powell explained that very well. Attacking her credibility isn't a very effective way to prove a point either.

Please do find point of law that invalidates my statements. And please no "investigative journalists."


I attacked Powell’s credibility because she’s nakedly partisan and her website/movement/whatever are crass and unprofessional - certainly nothing befitting anyone who had a decent prosecutorial career. She took her own credibility down, not me.

As for her opinion on the merits - Constitutional presumption of innocence is not enough. The 1973 and 2000 OLC memoranda make the following clear in their analysis:

- Presumption of innocence must be upheld
- Doing so is difficult involving POTUS because the office is unique and some charges will appear to be or actually be inherently political
- This requires further care as the DOJ is already compromised by being part of the executive branch, i.e. an entity cannot serve as judge and defendant simultaneously
- The goalpost for discussing/handling POTUS crimes or misconduct must therefore move to recognize impossibility of adjudication

If you didn’t glean the above from the DOJ guidance, you have not read the memoranda. They revisited the issue in 2000, and OLC found most of the concerns in the 1973 memo were well-grounded and even more applicable in the modern context of the office.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:19 am

alfa164 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Individual number one and the right loves to keep repeating the same tired talking points that have been discredited
https://apnews.com/94323cfc164c4759ba6bf84ad2a46203
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-w ... story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/30/politics ... index.html
So where is the lie? Just because something is said over and over again does not make it truth. He was not exonerated. Period.


:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment
 
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seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:22 am

stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Individual number one and the right loves to keep repeating the same tired talking points that have been discredited
https://apnews.com/94323cfc164c4759ba6bf84ad2a46203
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-w ... story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/30/politics ... index.html
So where is the lie? Just because something is said over and over again does not make it truth. He was not exonerated. Period.


:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment


So right wing spin is the truth? whatever.... we are done here....
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16809
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:01 am

stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Individual number one and the right loves to keep repeating the same tired talking points that have been discredited
https://apnews.com/94323cfc164c4759ba6bf84ad2a46203
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-w ... story.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/30/politics ... index.html
So where is the lie? Just because something is said over and over again does not make it truth. He was not exonerated. Period.


:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment


So you have no intention of reading the DOJ OLC findings or looking at how they counter Powell’s simplistic claim that Constitutional presumption of innocence is the ultimate bulwark?
 
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seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:05 am

Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment


So you have no intention of reading the DOJ OLC findings or looking at how they counter Powell’s simplistic claim that Constitutional presumption of innocence is the ultimate bulwark?


The House does not have to bring up charges based in the Mueller Report anyway. He has not divested himself from his company. He gets our tax dollars when he goes on yet another golfing weekend at one of his properties. He favored a contractor who was also a GOP donor. He has demanded those under him not answer subpoenas, which could be investigated as obstruction.

No one but no one is above the law.
 
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stl07
Posts: 3067
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:57 am

seb146 wrote:
no one but no one is above the law.

Exactly
It's funny that some are all about conserving "due process" and "the rule if law" unless it has to with Trump, and then they make a 180 and give him a pass for everything
 
stratclub
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:21 am

Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment


So you have no intention of reading the DOJ OLC findings or looking at how they counter Powell’s simplistic claim that Constitutional presumption of innocence is the ultimate bulwark?

Well I did. Pages 28-39 right? What page and paragraph counters Powell's claim? I have always presumed innocence is universal thing. I found this nugget below about presumed innocence relating to (D-Hawii) Mazie Hirono's opinion during the Brett Kavanaugh supreme court confirmation hearings.

"This brief rundown shows, I think, that the facts we know do not overcome the presumption of innocence. The only thing left for the Left is to say that Kavanaugh simply doesn’t get the presumption of innocence in the first place.

That is Hirono’s position. She is questioning the “unquestioned” presumption of innocence itself, at least in Kavanaugh’s case. But why single him out? Hirono is not clear on that, but referred to “how he approaches cases,” that “he’s very outcome-driven,” and is “against women’s reproductive choice.” This makes it sound like the presumption of innocence belongs only to those who agree with her on certain issues or who, as judges, would decide cases to her liking".


During Bars testimony she used her 5 minutes of time to personally attack AG Bar and Trump and was told to stop her abusive line of questioning by the chairman of the committee. Just amazing. People like Mazie, Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler etc. sure contribute nothing to the legislative process. Time for term limits me thinks. No mtter what you think of Trump, we could have got to a fair resolution along time ago without the deadwood in our way.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:08 am

stl07 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
no one but no one is above the law.

Exactly
It's funny that some are all about conserving "due process" and "the rule if law" unless it has to with Trump, and then they make a 180 and give him a pass for everything

Completely true about nobody being above the law. But lets do it right. Let the DOJ investigate from the very beginnings of this mess and find all the bad actors all the way up to the food chain. The DOJ is suppose to be the branch that enforces the law, not a bunch of Democrats who's only agenda is to get Trump using the guise of "oversight" for the American people.

It is amazing that the Demos are now saying that the DOJ investigating the origins of ColussionGate is a cover up. Really? Adam Shiff was telling people that work for the FBI and the DOJ they should resign rather than cooperate in the DOJ's lawful investigations. Really? Wouldn't that be obstruction of justice?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16809
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:43 am

stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment


So you have no intention of reading the DOJ OLC findings or looking at how they counter Powell’s simplistic claim that Constitutional presumption of innocence is the ultimate bulwark?

Well I did. Pages 28-39 right? What page and paragraph counters Powell's claim? I have always presumed innocence is universal thing. I found this nugget below about presumed innocence relating to (D-Hawii) Mazie Hirono's opinion during the Brett Kavanaugh supreme court confirmation hearings.

"This brief rundown shows, I think, that the facts we know do not overcome the presumption of innocence. The only thing left for the Left is to say that Kavanaugh simply doesn’t get the presumption of innocence in the first place.

That is Hirono’s position. She is questioning the “unquestioned” presumption of innocence itself, at least in Kavanaugh’s case. But why single him out? Hirono is not clear on that, but referred to “how he approaches cases,” that “he’s very outcome-driven,” and is “against women’s reproductive choice.” This makes it sound like the presumption of innocence belongs only to those who agree with her on certain issues or who, as judges, would decide cases to her liking".


During Bars testimony she used her 5 minutes of time to personally attack AG Bar and Trump and was told to stop her abusive line of questioning by the chairman of the committee. Just amazing. People like Mazie, Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler etc. sure contribute nothing to the legislative process. Time for term limits me thinks. No mtter what you think of Trump, we could have got to a fair resolution along time ago without the deadwood in our way.


Not talking about Sen. Hirono or Justice Kavanaugh....talking about how the OLC findings were far more substantive than Powell's mantra about the Constitution. I summarized the OLC findings from both 1973 and 2000 for you in Reply 303.
 
alfa164
Posts: 4022
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:48 am

stratclub wrote:
I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.t


stratclub wrote:
During Bars testimony she used her 5 minutes of time to personally attack AG Bar and Trump and was told to stop her abusive line of questioning by the chairman of the committee.


Anyone who doesn't yet know our Attorney General's name is Barr is living somewhere closer to the Neva River than to the Mississippi River... just sayin...

;)
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:23 am

alfa164 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.t


stratclub wrote:
During Bars testimony she used her 5 minutes of time to personally attack AG Bar and Trump and was told to stop her abusive line of questioning by the chairman of the committee.


Anyone who doesn't yet know our Attorney General's name is Barr is living somewhere closer to the Neva River than to the Mississippi River... just sayin...

;)

Or they have autocorrect turned on.
 
alfa164
Posts: 4022
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:53 am

Magog wrote:
Or they have autocorrect turned on.


Apparently it wasn't turned on when he/she/it wrote this: "If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor."

Next excuse?

:roll:
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:17 pm

stratclub wrote:
stl07 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
no one but no one is above the law.

Exactly
It's funny that some are all about conserving "due process" and "the rule if law" unless it has to with Trump, and then they make a 180 and give him a pass for everything

Completely true about nobody being above the law. But lets do it right. Let the DOJ investigate from the very beginnings of this mess and find all the bad actors all the way up to the food chain. The DOJ is suppose to be the branch that enforces the law, not a bunch of Democrats who's only agenda is to get Trump using the guise of "oversight" for the American people.

It is amazing that the Demos are now saying that the DOJ investigating the origins of ColussionGate is a cover up. Really? Adam Shiff was telling people that work for the FBI and the DOJ they should resign rather than cooperate in the DOJ's lawful investigations. Really? Wouldn't that be obstruction of justice?


We already know how it started: American intelligence agencies got tips that Russia was trying to interfere with the 2016 elections.

There ya go.

We do NOT need a whole bunch of MAGA fan boys and MAGA crew trying to make stuff up in order to exonerate their boss. We know they are trying to fit a narrative: that individual number one is pure as the new driven snow and the blame should be put on Obama and Hillary. Which is not true at all. But that is the outcome they want.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:23 pm

stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment


So you have no intention of reading the DOJ OLC findings or looking at how they counter Powell’s simplistic claim that Constitutional presumption of innocence is the ultimate bulwark?

Well I did. Pages 28-39 right? What page and paragraph counters Powell's claim? I have always presumed innocence is universal thing. I found this nugget below about presumed innocence relating to (D-Hawii) Mazie Hirono's opinion during the Brett Kavanaugh supreme court confirmation hearings.

"This brief rundown shows, I think, that the facts we know do not overcome the presumption of innocence. The only thing left for the Left is to say that Kavanaugh simply doesn’t get the presumption of innocence in the first place.

That is Hirono’s position. She is questioning the “unquestioned” presumption of innocence itself, at least in Kavanaugh’s case. But why single him out? Hirono is not clear on that, but referred to “how he approaches cases,” that “he’s very outcome-driven,” and is “against women’s reproductive choice.” This makes it sound like the presumption of innocence belongs only to those who agree with her on certain issues or who, as judges, would decide cases to her liking".


During Bars testimony she used her 5 minutes of time to personally attack AG Bar and Trump and was told to stop her abusive line of questioning by the chairman of the committee. Just amazing. People like Mazie, Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler etc. sure contribute nothing to the legislative process. Time for term limits me thinks. No mtter what you think of Trump, we could have got to a fair resolution along time ago without the deadwood in our way.


That explains why there was an attorney general that was installed who is completely and totally in lock step with what individual number one wants and says. The timing of installling Barr is suspicious. Just before Mueller's Report comes out? hmmmmmmm......

The job of attorney general is to look out for OUR best interests. Not the best interest of the White House, like is being done right now. You seem to love quoting two pages from Mueller's Report, so maybe you can quote exactly where Mueller said complete exoneration?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:41 pm

Magog wrote:
The job of AG is probably more nuanced than you are giving it credit for. If it wasn’t, you would not have Eric Holder is saying that he was Obama’s wing man.


What was Obama under investigation for?

Better question:

Why are you trying to play "both sides do it" when clearly they do not?

EDIT:

https://www.justice.gov/jmd/organizatio ... ey-general

A link to what the attorney general does
 
stratclub
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:41 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that. I have tried to explain the truth here but oh man. People only want to hear what the MSM spoon feeds them. All three of those MSM links are garbage journalism, not facts. CNN/MSNBC are notoriously bad in lying about the truth. I know because I have cross checked their bogus reporting by watching AG Bar's 5 hour Congressional hearing. If you want truthful assessment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosecutor Sidney Powell.

Former Texas Prosecutor Sidney Powell, Mueller’s words stood the rule of law and the presumption of innocence on their heads.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udRqsEa2N9E

A highly respected legal scholar's opinion about Constitutional rights violations against DJT.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... mpeachment


So you have no intention of reading the DOJ OLC findings or looking at how they counter Powell’s simplistic claim that Constitutional presumption of innocence is the ultimate bulwark?

It's just as I read it. The OLC memo does not negate Presumed innocence, it states that with the relationship of the Executive branch and the DOJ makes upholding Presumed innocence problematic because the AG reports directly to the President. It would be like the President being his own judge.

That is why legitimate misconduct of the President falls to Congress and the impeachment process. Still, Congress cannot invalidate the rights of due process and presumed innocence like they are doing with their blizzard of subpoenas requests that for the most part, have flimsy legitimate legislative purpose.

- Presumption of innocence must be upheld
- Doing so is difficult involving POTUS because the office is unique and some charges will appear to be or actually be inherently political
- This requires further care as the DOJ is already compromised by being part of the executive branch, i.e. an entity cannot serve as judge and defendant simultaneously
- The goalpost for discussing/handling POTUS crimes or misconduct must therefore move to recognize impossibility of adjudication
 
alfa164
Posts: 4022
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:01 pm

alfa164 wrote:
:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right?

;)



stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that.


So... stratclub decided to add the phrase "If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor." inside my quote - and couldn't even spell any of the important words right.

That is lying, misleading, and not at all what I wrote. LIAR - LIAR - PANTS ON FIRE!
 
stratclub
Posts: 1382
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:40 pm

alfa164 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right?

;)



stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
:checkmark: Individual number one and the right... and the trolls who infest A.net (and most every public forum in cyberspace, for that matter). And they all seem to ignore the Special Counsel's own words:

"And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."

But, of course we have much smarter and honest people here on this forum than there are in the Special Counsel's Office... right? If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor.

;)

Thanks for that.


So... stratclub decided to add the phrase "If you want atruthful assesment of Mueller's report watch this interview with a well respected Federal Prosacutor." inside my quote - and couldn't even spell any of the important words right.

That is lying, misleading, and not at all what I wrote. LIAR - LIAR - PANTS ON FIRE!

Terribly sorry. Those are my own words. when I was crafting a reply, during editing to fix some errors I must have got something FUBAR. There will be a full retraction and public flogging because of my error at 11:00. :banghead:
 
stratclub
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:52 am

seb146 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

So you have no intention of reading the DOJ OLC findings or looking at how they counter Powell’s simplistic claim that Constitutional presumption of innocence is the ultimate bulwark?

Well I did. Pages 28-39 right? What page and paragraph counters Powell's claim? I have always presumed innocence is universal thing. I found this nugget below about presumed innocence relating to (D-Hawii) Mazie Hirono's opinion during the Brett Kavanaugh supreme court confirmation hearings.

"This brief rundown shows, I think, that the facts we know do not overcome the presumption of innocence. The only thing left for the Left is to say that Kavanaugh simply doesn’t get the presumption of innocence in the first place.

That is Hirono’s position. She is questioning the “unquestioned” presumption of innocence itself, at least in Kavanaugh’s case. But why single him out? Hirono is not clear on that, but referred to “how he approaches cases,” that “he’s very outcome-driven,” and is “against women’s reproductive choice.” This makes it sound like the presumption of innocence belongs only to those who agree with her on certain issues or who, as judges, would decide cases to her liking".


During Bars testimony she used her 5 minutes of time to personally attack AG Bar and Trump and was told to stop her abusive line of questioning by the chairman of the committee. Just amazing. People like Mazie, Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler etc. sure contribute nothing to the legislative process. Time for term limits me thinks. No mtter what you think of Trump, we could have got to a fair resolution along time ago without the deadwood in our way.


That explains why there was an attorney general that was installed who is completely and totally in lock step with what individual number one wants and says. The timing of installling Barr is suspicious. Just before Mueller's Report comes out? hmmmmmmm......

The job of attorney general is to look out for OUR best interests. Not the best interest of the White House, like is being done right now. You seem to love quoting two pages from Mueller's Report, so maybe you can quote exactly where Mueller said complete exoneration?

I understand where your irrational Trump hate comes from. For the last 3 years many of the Democrats and their Main Stream Media have been bashing Trump every chance they get by telling bold faced lies and made up false narratives. The worst of these are CNN and MSNBC. Rachell Madow is probably the worst of these swamp creatures where night after night after night she did nothing but do her best to assassinate the President's character in a very vile and despicable way. 17 of Rachel Madow's vicious lie fests. https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/201 ... hoax-lies/

I can verify that the MSM's lies are true because I have been comparing how news is reported by various news outlet. I watched the entire 5 hours of AG Barr testifying before Congress where afterwards the Democrat's and their MSM were shouting to the stars about how AG Barr had lied and the Democrats and MSM had various bold faced lies and false narratives as to why AG Barr should go to jail or resign. The amount of hate they projected was amazing.

The thing is that not once did AG Bar lie about anything to anybody even though they tried to trip him up so they could proclaim that he is a treasonous immoral lier. Well, they didn't trip him up, but they did tell vicious lies about him anyway.

The thing about AG Barr being in lockstep with the President was put in your head by the Democratic Main Stream Media. Bill Barr was selected as AG because he is an extremely competent lawyer, a believer in enforcing the law and not part of the business as usual DC swamp.

What should be a relief to all Americans is that AG Barr has found evidence of spying on DJT and has several investigations under way to find the truth about the origins of ObstructionGate. Those investigations have gotten a lot of stonewalling and push back by Government Agencies so our President has authorized classified documents to be made available and full cooperation of Government Agencies to AG Bar. Sure sounds like full transparency by the President to me. Finally, the truth will come out.
 
alfa164
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:16 am

stratclub wrote:
I can verify that the MSM's lies are true


I think, in English, that is called an oxymoron.

stratclub wrote:
The thing is that not once did AG Bar lie about anything to anybody even though they tried to trip him up so they could proclaim that he is a treasonous immoral lier. Well, they didn't trip him up, but they did tell vicious lies about him anyway.


The person who actually wrote the report disagrees with you. And the AG's name is still Barr.

stratclub wrote:
The thing about AG Barr being in lockstep with the President was put in your head by the Democratic Main Stream Media. Bill Barr was selected as AG because he is an extremely competent lawyer, a believer in enforcing the law and not part of the business as usual DC swamp.


Barr's time in the swamp:

Appointed as Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel, 1988 to 1991;

Served served as AG under George H.W. Bush from 1991 to 1993;

Wrote an advisory opinion justifying the U.S. invasion of Panama and arrest of Manuel Noriega;

Wrote legal justifications for the practice of rendition;

Launched a surveillance program to gather innocent Americans' phone records;

... and don't forget his role in the sordid Iran Contra Affair.


Sure looks like a swamp creature to me...

:roll:

stratclub wrote:
What should be a relief to all Americans is that AG Barr has found evidence of spying on DJT and has several investigations under way to find the truth about the origins of ObstructionGate. Those investigations have gotten a lot of stonewalling and push back by Government Agencies so our President has authorized classified documents to be made available and full cooperation of Government Agencies to AG Bar. Sure sounds like full transparency by the President to me. Finally, the truth will come out.


You probably should not be telling "all Americans" what is good for them. Here, we have a ballot box with real alternatives. Wd hen the truth does come out... let's see what excuses the Trumppuppets, Russian trolls, an internet provocateurs have then...

;)
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:17 am

stratclub wrote:
Bill Barr was selected as AG because he is an extremely competent lawyer, a believer in enforcing the law and not part of the business as usual DC swamp.


Not this claim again. Barr has been a protector for the executive branch and discards rule of law when it suits the executive over public interest, on more than one occasion no less. Repeating things does not erase the factual record.

He was one of the driving forces behind what Safire called the “Christmas eve massacre” of the Iran-contra probe. Barr pushed hard for last minute pardons for six individuals caught up in the investigation, including former defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger. The dramatic move on December 24, 1992, aborted Weinberger’s trial, which was slated to begin the next month, “virtually decapitating what was left of Mr. Walsh’s effort, which began in 1986.” Walsh denounced the pardons as part of the cover-up that “has continued for more than six years.” The decision to issue pardons, he said, “undermines the principle that no man is above the law. It demonstrates that powerful people with powerful allies can commit serious crimes in high office, deliberately abusing the public trust without consequences.”

https://thebulwark.com/we-should-not-ha ... -barr/amp/
 
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seb146
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:50 am

stratclub wrote:
seb146 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Well I did. Pages 28-39 right? What page and paragraph counters Powell's claim? I have always presumed innocence is universal thing. I found this nugget below about presumed innocence relating to (D-Hawii) Mazie Hirono's opinion during the Brett Kavanaugh supreme court confirmation hearings.

"This brief rundown shows, I think, that the facts we know do not overcome the presumption of innocence. The only thing left for the Left is to say that Kavanaugh simply doesn’t get the presumption of innocence in the first place.

That is Hirono’s position. She is questioning the “unquestioned” presumption of innocence itself, at least in Kavanaugh’s case. But why single him out? Hirono is not clear on that, but referred to “how he approaches cases,” that “he’s very outcome-driven,” and is “against women’s reproductive choice.” This makes it sound like the presumption of innocence belongs only to those who agree with her on certain issues or who, as judges, would decide cases to her liking".


During Bars testimony she used her 5 minutes of time to personally attack AG Bar and Trump and was told to stop her abusive line of questioning by the chairman of the committee. Just amazing. People like Mazie, Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler etc. sure contribute nothing to the legislative process. Time for term limits me thinks. No mtter what you think of Trump, we could have got to a fair resolution along time ago without the deadwood in our way.


That explains why there was an attorney general that was installed who is completely and totally in lock step with what individual number one wants and says. The timing of installling Barr is suspicious. Just before Mueller's Report comes out? hmmmmmmm......

The job of attorney general is to look out for OUR best interests. Not the best interest of the White House, like is being done right now. You seem to love quoting two pages from Mueller's Report, so maybe you can quote exactly where Mueller said complete exoneration?

I understand where your irrational Trump hate comes from. For the last 3 years many of the Democrats and their Main Stream Media have been bashing Trump every chance they get by telling bold faced lies and made up false narratives.


I'm gonna stop you right there: The "hate" comes from literally everyone showing facts about him over and over and over and over and over always getting the same response. "GET OVER IT!!!" and nothing more. He is a failed businessman. The same failed businessman who declared bankruptcy multiple times. The same failed businessman who had casinos go under. He is suddenly a Christian even though he is on his third marriage and lies and cheats on his wives. I get it. Party before country.

Bye. We are done.
 
stratclub
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:39 am

How are lies told over and over and over again facts? Hate and character assassination are the new mantra of the democratic party. Why bother doing the job they were elected to when it's more important to railroad their political rivals in order to stay in power? No Collusion no Obstruction. They need to stop their witch hunt and move on.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:45 am

stratclub wrote:
How are lies told over and over and over again facts? Hate and character assassination are the new mantra of the democratic party. Why bother doing the job they were elected to when it's more important to railroad their political rivals in order to stay in office? No Collusion no Obstruction. They need to stop their witch hunt and move on.


Not lies - Charles Sykes is a longtime conservative commentator, and unless you have other evidence, everything in that article did transpire according to public record.

Facts:

- Barr supported and engineered pardons for convicted Iran-Contra criminals.

- Barr blocked a special investigation into late 80s funds illegally funneled to Saddam’s military.

- Barr has twice sided with executive interest over public interest in official criminal conduct

....which leads to, fact:

Barr is not a Washington lawyer known for prioritizing rule of law.
 
stratclub
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
How are lies told over and over and over again facts? Hate and character assassination are the new mantra of the democratic party. Why bother doing the job they were elected to when it's more important to railroad their political rivals in order to stay in office? No Collusion no Obstruction. They need to stop their witch hunt and move on.


Not lies - Charles Sykes is a longtime conservative commentator, and unless you have other evidence, everything in that article did transpire according to public record.

Facts:

- Barr supported and engineered pardons for convicted Iran-Contra criminals.

- Barr blocked a special investigation into late 80s funds illegally funneled to Saddam’s military.

- Barr has twice sided with executive interest over public interest in official criminal conduct

....which leads to, fact:

Barr is not a Washington lawyer known for prioritizing rule of law.

O.K. O.K. O.K. I concede. I think we are all showing our own personal bias for the most part because a lot of the talking points are pretty tough to prove one way or the other.

Everyone should watch the actual public congressional hearing to get a better understanding of what is actually going on. Even then, a lot of what happens in those hearings is posturing for the cameras. Both sides have media that are biased towards them and I'm sure that if things were swapped around, the Republicans would be just as nasty as the Democrats are now...............peace.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:40 am

stratclub wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
How are lies told over and over and over again facts? Hate and character assassination are the new mantra of the democratic party. Why bother doing the job they were elected to when it's more important to railroad their political rivals in order to stay in office? No Collusion no Obstruction. They need to stop their witch hunt and move on.


Not lies - Charles Sykes is a longtime conservative commentator, and unless you have other evidence, everything in that article did transpire according to public record.

Facts:

- Barr supported and engineered pardons for convicted Iran-Contra criminals.

- Barr blocked a special investigation into late 80s funds illegally funneled to Saddam’s military.

- Barr has twice sided with executive interest over public interest in official criminal conduct

....which leads to, fact:

Barr is not a Washington lawyer known for prioritizing rule of law.

O.K. O.K. O.K. I concede. I think we are all showing our own personal bias for the most part because a lot of the talking points are pretty tough to prove one way or the other.

Everyone should watch the actual public congressional hearing to get a better understanding of what is actually going on. Even then, a lot of what happens in those hearings is posturing for the cameras. Both sides have media that are biased towards them and I'm sure that if things were swapped around, the Republicans would be just as nasty as the Democrats are now...............peace.


There is no personal bias possible in public record facts - they already happened. The interpretation of Barr’s impact or motivation is opinion-based, but there is no dispute, anywhere, that Iran Contra criminals were pardoned by Barr and that an investigation of funds sent to Iraq during the Iran war was blocked by Barr. Thus any opinion that he has put executive interests over the public interest are highly supported by available facts.
 
afcjets
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:49 pm

Based on how this witch hunt started and the impact it has had on our nation, Barr absolutely should be Trump’s personal attorney first and foremost as it is in the American people’s best interest.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:59 pm

afcjets wrote:
Based on how this witch hunt started and the impact it has had on our nation, Barr absolutely should be Trump’s personal attorney first and foremost as it is in the American people’s best interest.


So a lying , partisan, racist coward, should get the American Attorney General as his Personal Attorney ?

Makes sense in Russia I guess.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:00 pm

afcjets wrote:
Based on how this witch hunt started and the impact it has had on our nation, Barr absolutely should be Trump’s personal attorney first and foremost as it is in the American people’s best interest.


Pretty out-there statement considering 30% or fewer eligible voters went for POTUS, and the White House has its own counsel staff. But hey, it's crazy season, where we're supposed to believe integrity exists in a guy who said it's totally OK to sell arms to enemy Iran to fund terrorists elsewhere, and then cover it up. :eyebrow:
 
Magog
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Based on how this witch hunt started and the impact it has had on our nation, Barr absolutely should be Trump’s personal attorney first and foremost as it is in the American people’s best interest.


So a lying , partisan, racist coward, should get the American Attorney General as his Personal Attorney ?

Makes sense in Russia I guess.

I’d say wing man but Eric Holder has a copyright on that term.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:31 pm

Magog wrote:
casinterest wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Based on how this witch hunt started and the impact it has had on our nation, Barr absolutely should be Trump’s personal attorney first and foremost as it is in the American people’s best interest.


So a lying , partisan, racist coward, should get the American Attorney General as his Personal Attorney ?

Makes sense in Russia I guess.

I’d say wing man but Eric Holder has a copyright on that term.


Also inaccurate - Holder was more guilty of covering for Wall Street criminals than the WH.
 
afcjets
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Based on how this witch hunt started and the impact it has had on our nation, Barr absolutely should be Trump’s personal attorney first and foremost as it is in the American people’s best interest.


Pretty out-there statement considering 30% or fewer eligible voters went for POTUS, and the White House has its own counsel staff. But hey, it's crazy season, where we're supposed to believe integrity exists in a guy who said it's totally OK to sell arms to enemy Iran to fund terrorists elsewhere, and then cover it up. :eyebrow:


Your side first and repeatedly calls him Trump's personal attorney, so I am agreeing with you. It's in the public's best interest the witch hunt gets investigated so those who tried to undermine our democracy can be held accountable and so this will never happen again, regardless of who you voted for and even if you hate the President.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:39 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Based on how this witch hunt started and the impact it has had on our nation, Barr absolutely should be Trump’s personal attorney first and foremost as it is in the American people’s best interest.


Pretty out-there statement considering 30% or fewer eligible voters went for POTUS, and the White House has its own counsel staff. But hey, it's crazy season, where we're supposed to believe integrity exists in a guy who said it's totally OK to sell arms to enemy Iran to fund terrorists elsewhere, and then cover it up. :eyebrow:


Your side first and repeatedly calls him Trump's personal attorney, so I am agreeing with you. It's in the public's best interest the witch hunt gets investigated so those who tried to undermine our democracy can be held accountable and so this will never happen again, regardless of who you voted for and even if you hate the President.


It wasn't a witch hunt. Thy Lying, racist, coward ASKED FOR and RECEIVED ELECTION ASSISTANCE from a foreign government. There is real video ,documents and Audio to prove it. And yet the GOP blind sheep think it is all a witch hunt. Must be some side effect of all the Opiates in Middle America.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:54 pm

Let's summarize:

The man who wrote a 4 1/2 page summary in a few hours is telling the truth but the man who wrote 350+ pages and spent 2 1/2 years investigating is lying.

And let's not gloss over the fact that son-in-law Jared Kushner met with Russians in his father-in-law's building about getting dirt on Hillary and never went to the FBI at all. And said in a public interview that he would do the same thing again.
 
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:28 pm

casinterest wrote:
It wasn't a witch hunt. Thy Lying, racist, coward ASKED FOR and RECEIVED ELECTION ASSISTANCE from a foreign government. There is real video ,documents and Audio to prove it. And yet the GOP blind sheep think it is all a witch hunt. Must be some side effect of all the Opiates in Middle America.


Because not even Mueller and his team of Hillary donors took Trump's live televised campaign rally joke seriously when he said "hey Russia, if you're listening, see if you can find Hillary's emails" (which she destroyed while under investigation).

I once worked with this woman who would often call her daughter and say very excitedly "your BROTHER is picking you up from school today!". It didn't take long for us to realize it clearly wasn't her brother. She married another man and it was his older son. So you might want to tone it down.
 
Magog
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:50 pm

seb146 wrote:
Let's summarize:

The man who wrote a 4 1/2 page summary in a few hours is telling the truth but the man who wrote 350+ pages and spent 2 1/2 years investigating is lying.

It’s much more likely that they are both telling the truth since they have both gone on record saying that there is no evidence that the Trump campaign coordinated whatsoever with Russia.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:51 pm

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It wasn't a witch hunt. Thy Lying, racist, coward ASKED FOR and RECEIVED ELECTION ASSISTANCE from a foreign government. There is real video ,documents and Audio to prove it. And yet the GOP blind sheep think it is all a witch hunt. Must be some side effect of all the Opiates in Middle America.


Because not even Mueller and his team of Hillary donors took Trump's live televised campaign rally joke seriously when he said "hey Russia, if you're listening, see if you can find Hillary's emails" (which she destroyed while under investigation).


http://documents.latimes.com/hillary-cl ... nt-emails/

Those "destroyed" emails? The ones everyone can read? That everyone has been reading since 2016?

Start a Hillary thread if you believe there is something there. She has been under constant investigation since she was first lady. And Republicans have found zip. Maybe they just have not redacted the right words? Maybe there is nothing there?

In any event, start a Hillary thread. This thread is how the hand picked attorney general lied to the American People. Not about Hillary.

Get over it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:54 pm

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It wasn't a witch hunt. Thy Lying, racist, coward ASKED FOR and RECEIVED ELECTION ASSISTANCE from a foreign government. There is real video ,documents and Audio to prove it. And yet the GOP blind sheep think it is all a witch hunt. Must be some side effect of all the Opiates in Middle America.


Because not even Mueller and his team of Hillary donors took Trump's live televised campaign rally joke seriously when he said "hey Russia, if you're listening, see if you can find Hillary's emails" (which she destroyed while under investigation).

I once worked with this woman who would often call her daughter and say very excitedly "your BROTHER is picking you up from school today!". It didn't take long for us to realize it clearly wasn't her brother. She married another man and it was his older son. So you might want to tone it down.

Those drugs must be something out there.
 
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seb146
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:56 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Let's summarize:

The man who wrote a 4 1/2 page summary in a few hours is telling the truth but the man who wrote 350+ pages and spent 2 1/2 years investigating is lying.

It’s much more likely that they are both telling the truth since they have both gone on record saying that there is no evidence that the Trump campaign coordinated whatsoever with Russia.


Except Mueller never said that. He said there was no collusion, which is not a thing. He left open the door for investigations because the evidence is there. It was only his job to say "here is what I was tasked with and here is what I found relating to that narrow topic". He also found other crimes and referred them to the appropriate districts for investigation and possible prosecution. It is not his job to prosecute crimes. Only to say what part Russia had in interfering with our elections. He did that and individual number one and his family seem to be in on it. Which is why we need further investigations, to see how far the family goes. Kushner, Mnuchen, Ivanka, Eric, Junior, and, yes, the current occupant of the White House.
 
Magog
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:59 pm

seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Let's summarize:

The man who wrote a 4 1/2 page summary in a few hours is telling the truth but the man who wrote 350+ pages and spent 2 1/2 years investigating is lying.

It’s much more likely that they are both telling the truth since they have both gone on record saying that there is no evidence that the Trump campaign coordinated whatsoever with Russia.


Except Mueller never said that. He said there was no collusion, which is not a thing. He left open the door for investigations because the evidence is there. It was only his job to say "here is what I was tasked with and here is what I found relating to that narrow topic". He also found other crimes and referred them to the appropriate districts for investigation and possible prosecution. It is not his job to prosecute crimes. Only to say what part Russia had in interfering with our elections. He did that and individual number one and his family seem to be in on it. Which is why we need further investigations, to see how far the family goes. Kushner, Mnuchen, Ivanka, Eric, Junior, and, yes, the current occupant of the White House.

Tens of millions of dollars and unlimited resources resulted in absolutely nothing when it comes to Trump’s campaign coordinating with Russia. And yet you are insisting that it really happened? To put it mildly, that is an extraordinary claim. When there is credible evidence I will stand alongside you and condemn Trump. I just thought that we had moved on from the witch hunts that took place in seventeenth century Massachusetts.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:34 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
It’s much more likely that they are both telling the truth since they have both gone on record saying that there is no evidence that the Trump campaign coordinated whatsoever with Russia.


Except Mueller never said that. He said there was no collusion, which is not a thing. He left open the door for investigations because the evidence is there. It was only his job to say "here is what I was tasked with and here is what I found relating to that narrow topic". He also found other crimes and referred them to the appropriate districts for investigation and possible prosecution. It is not his job to prosecute crimes. Only to say what part Russia had in interfering with our elections. He did that and individual number one and his family seem to be in on it. Which is why we need further investigations, to see how far the family goes. Kushner, Mnuchen, Ivanka, Eric, Junior, and, yes, the current occupant of the White House.

Tens of millions of dollars and unlimited resources resulted in absolutely nothing when it comes to Trump’s campaign coordinating with Russia. And yet you are insisting that it really happened? To put it mildly, that is an extraordinary claim. When there is credible evidence I will stand alongside you and condemn Trump. I just thought that we had moved on from the witch hunts that took place in seventeenth century Massachusetts.

You have a very wide definition of Absolutely Nothing. Kind of like you claiming to be liberal.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... grand-jury

Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team indicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies during their lengthy investigation, which is now complete.

That group is composed of six former Trump advisers, 26 Russian nationals, three Russian companies, one California man, and one London-based lawyer. Seven of these people (including five of the six former Trump advisers) have pleaded guilty.

If you also count investigations that Mueller originated but then referred elsewhere in the Justice Department, you can add a plea deal from one more person to the list.

It’s a sprawling set of allegations, encompassing both election interference charges against overseas Russians, and various other crimes by American Trump advisers.
 
Magog
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:37 pm

You neglected to mention a rather important detail. Absolutely nobody connected with the Trump campaign was indicted for anything having to do with conspiring or cooperating with Russia. All of the indictments involved process crimes. I wonder why you would’ve neglected to mention that?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:46 pm

Magog wrote:
You neglected to mention a rather important detail. Absolutely nobody connected with the Trump campaign was indicted for anything having to do with conspiring or cooperating with Russia. All of the indictments involved process crimes. I wonder why you would’ve neglected to mention that?


Because it is Congress's job to investigate further. Isn't it funny how you fail to mention how the white house keeps suppressing evidence?

Maybe in Russia Poottie Poot has final say, but in a Federal Republic Congress has oversight.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/04/politics ... index.html
Federal law makes clear that the documents we requested — documents that left the White House months ago — are no longer covered by executive privilege, if they ever were," the New York Democrat said. "The President has no lawful basis for preventing these witnesses from complying with our request. We will continue to seek reasonable accommodation on these and all our discovery requests and intend to press these issues when we obtain the testimony of both Ms. Hicks and Ms. Donaldson."
 
Magog
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:51 pm

What do you think that Congress will discover that Mueller was an able to on earth?

In any event, it does not change the fact that there is no evidence of collusion at the current point in time. I’m old enough to remember when the Democrats believed in evidence before convicting.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:57 pm

Magog wrote:
What do you think that Congress will discover that Mueller was an able to on earth?

In any event, it does not change the fact that there is no evidence of collusion at the current point in time. I’m old enough to remember when the Democrats believed in evidence before convicting.


You have to have an investigation to get evidence. Does Russia not believe in Evidence?

Congress is working to get it . The President continues to obstruct.
 
afcjets
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
Those "destroyed" emails? The ones everyone can read? That everyone has been reading since 2016?

Start a Hillary thread if you believe there is something there. She has been under constant investigation since she was first lady. And Republicans have found zip. Maybe they just have not redacted the right words? Maybe there is nothing there?

In any event, start a Hillary thread. This thread is how the hand picked attorney general lied to the American People. Not about Hillary.

Get over it.


Thanks for prooving my point Seb. I was responding to someone on here who so badly wants to believe Trump's joke about Hillary's emails was evidence he colluded with Russia (because he has nothing else). When a user uses a joke about her emails as evidence Trump colluded, it becomes relevant to the topic as absurd as it is. I will pass on the message to him though.
 
Magog
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:27 pm

casinterest wrote:
Magog wrote:
What do you think that Congress will discover that Mueller was an able to on earth?

In any event, it does not change the fact that there is no evidence of collusion at the current point in time. I’m old enough to remember when the Democrats believed in evidence before convicting.


You have to have an investigation to get evidence....

The President continues to obstruct.

You do realize, do you not, that we just had an investigation that cost tens of millions of dollars? And... nothing.

Do you also realize that Mueller said that Trump did not interfere with his investigation?

I'm starting to think that the Democrat's desperate attempt to find collusion is akin to the search for El Dorado.

Look, there may be something out there that we find evidence of. If that is the case, I will stand right next to you and decry Trump. But this modern day McCarthyism is repulsive. It is not what I stand for as a Democrat.
 
stratclub
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Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
Let's summarize:

The man who wrote a 4 1/2 page summary in a few hours is telling the truth but the man who wrote 350+ pages and spent 2 1/2 years investigating is lying.

And let's not gloss over the fact that son-in-law Jared Kushner met with Russians in his father-in-law's building about getting dirt on Hillary and never went to the FBI at all. And said in a public interview that he would do the same thing again.

True. AG Bar summarized Mueller's findings and made a determination about guilt on obstruction.How is that lying?

Mueller instead of doing his job crafting the report did not make a finding on obstruction and trotted out the "exoneration" nonsense for political purposes. Mueller's lie was at his press conference he stated that his report was the final word on ObstructionGate and then went on to state that he could not make a determination about guilt for obstruction because of DOJ policy. His job was to make determinations about guilt and not to make determinations of innocence. Issuing of indictments was not his job, it is the job of the DOJ. His exact lie was in what he said about DOJ policy for not making a determination about guilt for obstruction.

The Trump tower meeting was a setup. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Veselnitskaya who was at the meeting worked for Fusion GPS that worked for HRC and the DNC. HRC paid Fusion GPS for the fictitious Steele dossier that was used to obtain several of the FISA warrants authorizing spying on candidate Trump and President Trump.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14392
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Mueller Speaks: Barr Mislead the American People

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 pm

Magog wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Magog wrote:
What do you think that Congress will discover that Mueller was an able to on earth?

In any event, it does not change the fact that there is no evidence of collusion at the current point in time. I’m old enough to remember when the Democrats believed in evidence before convicting.


You have to have an investigation to get evidence....

The President continues to obstruct.

You do realize, do you not, that we just had an investigation that cost tens of millions of dollars? And... nothing.

Do you also realize that Mueller said that Trump did not interfere with his investigation?

I'm starting to think that the Democrat's desperate attempt to find collusion is akin to the search for El Dorado.

Look, there may be something out there that we find evidence of. If that is the case, I will stand right next to you and decry Trump. But this modern day McCarthyism is repulsive. It is not what I stand for as a Democrat.



McCarthyism? No McCarthyism was about destroying citizens with lies from the Federal Government.

This is about finding out about how and why Russia interfered with our elections, You notice that the President has admitted the Russians interfered. Why hasn't he done anything about it?
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