Maloak33
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Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 11:24 am

What are your thoughts regarding the "Sparing the rod"
Any fathers or mothers care to comment?

And yes, there is a difference between discipline and abuse
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Magog
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 12:36 pm

No, there really isn’t a difference.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight ... over%3famp
 
bennett123
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 1:27 pm

I disagree.

Got hit a few times as a child, both at home and school.

Problem with Psychologists is that they try to create one rule that fits every instance.

As the use of corporal punishment has declined there is no evidence of people following the rules, any rules.
 
johns624
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 6:21 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I disagree.

Got hit a few times as a child, both at home and school.

Problem with Psychologists is that they try to create one rule that fits every instance.

As the use of corporal punishment has declined there is no evidence of people following the rules, any rules.
I agree. There is a huge difference between a spanking and child abuse.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 7:24 pm

When my daughter was 3’ish she wanted to “help” me cook. After several, increasingly stern, admonishments, plus a banishment, she finally got a quick spanking. She got the message. Or, maybe I should have let her suffer a 2nd or 3rd degree burn to her hand?

There is a place for spanking. Problem is, too many people don’t understand where the line is.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
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Moose135
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 7:27 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I disagree.

Got hit a few times as a child, both at home and school.

Problem with Psychologists is that they try to create one rule that fits every instance.

As the use of corporal punishment has declined there is no evidence of people following the rules, any rules.


If you spank a child, and his/her behavior doesn't change, what do you do? Spank them again? Spank them harder? Spank them longer? All you are doing is teaching the child that someone bigger and stronger can force their will upon them.
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fr8mech
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:06 pm

Moose135 wrote:

If you spank a child, and his/her behavior doesn't change, what do you do? Spank them again? Spank them harder? Spank them longer?


That’s that line I was talking about. Eventually, you understand what motivates, and de-motivates your kid, and your kid learns where your line is. I honestly can’t say when the last time I spanked one of my kids was. Certainly not much more than 3 years old, and absolutely not before 1.

Moose135 wrote:
All you are doing is teaching the child that someone bigger and stronger can force their will upon them.


Is that really a bad lesson to learn?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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Dutchy
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:18 pm

fr8mech wrote:
When my daughter was 3’ish she wanted to “help” me cook. After several, increasingly stern, admonishments, plus a banishment, she finally got a quick spanking. She got the message. Or, maybe I should have let her suffer a 2nd or 3rd degree burn to her hand?

There is a place for spanking. Problem is, too many people don’t understand where the line is.


So she wanted to help (= good behavior right) and got a negative massage, even severely negative: got hit.

Don't think giving your kid a slab will accomplish anything. Your kid might start to fear you, instead of respecting you and your authority.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
NoTime
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:18 pm

Moose135 wrote:
If you spank a child, and his/her behavior doesn't change, what do you do? Spank them again? Spank them harder? Spank them longer?


If you spank a child and his/her behavior doesn't change, then either a) there's a deeper mental/psychological problem lurking within them, or b) you've failed further upstream as a parent.
 
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Moose135
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:28 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Moose135 wrote:
All you are doing is teaching the child that someone bigger and stronger can force their will upon them.


Is that really a bad lesson to learn?


Well, if you want your kid to be a bully, I guess it is. "Hey kid, give me your lunch money, or I'll kick your butt..." That happens enough times, and maybe the kid decides if he brings dad's gun to school, that will make him bigger and stronger than the bully...
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Moose135
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:30 pm

NoTime wrote:
If you spank a child and his/her behavior doesn't change, then either a) there's a deeper mental/psychological problem lurking within them, or b) you've failed further upstream as a parent.

If you need to resort to spanking your child, you've already failed as a parent.
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johns624
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:33 pm

If spanking was so bad, why are kids so much worse behaved today? I see children today acting in church or restaurants like I would've never thought of acting.
As a segue--I always thought the modern educational system was talking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one side they tell the kids "If your parents ever lay a hand on you, let us know because they shouldn't do that". Then they come right back with "parents aren't doing their jobs. Their children won't listen and have no respect for authority". Sorry, can't have it both ways.
 
johns624
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:33 pm

Moose135 wrote:
NoTime wrote:
If you spank a child and his/her behavior doesn't change, then either a) there's a deeper mental/psychological problem lurking within them, or b) you've failed further upstream as a parent.

If you need to resort to spanking your child, you've already failed as a parent.
Wow, nothing like painting with a broad brush.
 
bennett123
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 8:57 pm

Not advocating beating kids.

However, sometimes a smack does work. People do not like pain, if they know a certain act will result in pain, they are likely to avoid it.

Moose135

I recall an incident at school. A kid that I was scared of joined me at the dinner table and started pinching my food. Rather rapidly my fork made contact with the back of his hand.

Result he left my dinner alone in future.

Sometimes pain works.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 10:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So she wanted to help (= good behavior right) and got a negative massage, even severely negative: got hit.

Don't think giving your kid a slab will accomplish anything. Your kid might start to fear you, instead of respecting you and your authority.


So, you’re in the “let her severely burn her hand” camp?

Moose135 wrote:
Well, if you want your kid to be a bully, I guess it is. "Hey kid, give me your lunch money, or I'll kick your butt..." That happens enough times, and maybe the kid decides if he brings dad's gun to school, that will make him bigger and stronger than the bully...


Clearly, you’re not in the “continually educating your child” camp, are you? Do you truly believe that the lesson described above is taught in a vacuum...without qualification? Knowing that someone that is bigger and stronger than you can compel you to do something, is an important lesson. But, just as important is teaching how to recognize the potential threat and avoid or mitigate it. You know, it’s part of the parenting thing.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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Dutchy
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 10:39 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So she wanted to help (= good behavior right) and got a negative massage, even severely negative: got hit.

Don't think giving your kid a slab will accomplish anything. Your kid might start to fear you, instead of respecting you and your authority.


So, you’re in the “let her severely burn her hand” camp?


False dilemma.... You clearly feel that you are right, no sense debating this when you clearly not open to it, So good luck with raising your daughter, hopefully she will be alright and grow up to be a healthy individual.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 10:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
False dilemma.... You clearly feel that you are right, no sense debating this when you clearly not open to it, So good luck with raising your daughter, hopefully she will be alright and grow up to be a healthy individual.


Not a false dilemma, an actual dilemma. Spanking was the “last resort” after being talked to and being removed from the area. She returned and tried to get to the oven, again. She got spanked, and she stayed away.

She is now a 16 year old honor student who cooks with me and by herself, and, so far as I know, has never burned her hand on the stove.

I call that a win.

Tell me, what is your solution with a willful child trying to do something that will get her injured? While, I no longer have any young children, I’m always willing to learn.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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DL717
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 11:00 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
False dilemma.... You clearly feel that you are right, no sense debating this when you clearly not open to it, So good luck with raising your daughter, hopefully she will be alright and grow up to be a healthy individual.


Not a false dilemma, an actual dilemma. Spanking was the “last resort” after being talked to and being removed from the area. She returned and tried to get to the oven, again. She got spanked, and she stayed away.

She is now a 16 year old honor student who cooks with me and by herself, and, so far as I know, has never burned her hand on the stove.

I call that a win.

Tell me, what is your solution with a willful child trying to do something that will get her injured? While, I no longer have any young children, I’m always willing to learn.


I spanked each of my kids once when they did something bad and were old enough to remember it wasn’t a great experience for them. 3-4 age. After that, the only thing that needed to be said in the future was “you want a spanking”? They turned out just fine, better than fine actually.
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DL717
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 11:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So she wanted to help (= good behavior right) and got a negative massage, even severely negative: got hit.

Don't think giving your kid a slab will accomplish anything. Your kid might start to fear you, instead of respecting you and your authority.


So, you’re in the “let her severely burn her hand” camp?


False dilemma.... You clearly feel that you are right, no sense debating this when you clearly not open to it, So good luck with raising your daughter, hopefully she will be alright and grow up to be a healthy individual.


And how healthy are the smart ass kids running around today with about zero respect for anyone they don’t agree with that can’t handle criticism and end up on a couch talking to a shrink?
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ParkFSI
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Sun May 05, 2019 11:16 pm

I’ll have to go middle of the road on this topic. I’m pushing 60 years old, my father was a auto mechanic making $90 a week (boy that has changed), 25 years old with three boys, broke and stressed out. If one of us spilled our milk at the breakfast table it was all over but the crying. Because he couldn’t afford spilled milk, I’m not going to go into details but boarder line beatings did take place. He is 80 now and I guess time does heal all wounds, he’s a pussycat these days.
I never laid a hand on my kids and we had a much better relationship than I had with my father and he has always gotten along with them, because he wasn’t their father.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:40 am

Yeah, I'm pretty sure most parents hit their kids out of poor emotional control on their own part and they use "discipline" as an excuse. I have never seen a parent "discipline" their kid in a way that seemed to be doing anything except teaching them the lesson that they should hit other people who are weaker than them when they are having a bad day.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:44 am

DL717 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
fr8mech wrote:

So, you’re in the “let her severely burn her hand” camp?


False dilemma.... You clearly feel that you are right, no sense debating this when you clearly not open to it, So good luck with raising your daughter, hopefully she will be alright and grow up to be a healthy individual.


And how healthy are the smart ass kids running around today with about zero respect for anyone they don’t agree with that can’t handle criticism and end up on a couch talking to a shrink?


Many of us spent our early adulthood talking to a shrink because our alcoholic boomer parents beat the shit out of us and turned around and said we had it so easy and that clearly we are messed up because they didn't beat us enough. Boomers are easily just as abusive as their parent's generation, they just lie about what they did to their kids publicly.
 
Olddog
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:27 am

The problem I see is that some are talking if all children were the same. In my experience, if most children are sensible to the words, some just does not learn that way.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:44 pm

You need to hit a child because that way they will know that there is always a bigger bully and eventually you can introduce them to the biggest bully of them all and they will be a slave to religion without question.

Strange how god fearing and hitting children seem to stem from the same folks. Once you have someone agreeing with you through fear you just up the fear level to eternity in hell and at that point you have officially made a closed minded religious fool who fails to see the difference between being in control and being controlling.

Fred


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Jouhou
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:58 pm

Also, from my experience being someone in their 30s it's readily apparent how the kids I went to school with turned out. The kids whose parents never laid a hand on them have successful careers and stable relationships. The kids who were beaten the worst ended up dead, in prison, or with drug addictions that will likely leave them dead or in prison. Those of us who were mildly hit by our parents took about a decade to become well adjusted adults while we worked through our issues.
 
luckyone
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:17 pm

Couple thoughts from a psychiatrist:

1. Psychologists do not attempt to create one standard for all. They do, however, speak of concepts that your average person does not quickly grasp.

2. Problems are absolutely yin and yang. Beating is just as much a problem as not takin adequate discipline. A light pop on the butt sometimes is the only thing a 2 year-old mind understands, and as such is warranted. When I still saw kids, a great many of them had problems simply because they weren’t disciplined appropriately.

3. Just as many of the problems we have with children is the relatively new concept of “cherishing” them. That’s not to say kids aren’t great, but previous generations went to no such trouble to celebrate their kids the way parents do today—my three year-old niece just had a big birthday party that she is unlikely to ever remember. We have a generation of kids raised by parents who were raised coddled in a post-war suburban environment where seemingly everything was designed around making children the center of one’s life. So is it any wonder many of those kids are lousy disciplinarians? Our grandparents had none of that between the depression and WW2. This also includes the concept of protecting your children from the world, AND using your children as an excuse to further your personal objectives (both political parties do this). Is it any wonder that many kids grow up with a warped sense of entitlement?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:35 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Spanking was the “last resort” after being talked to and being removed from the area. She returned and tried to get to the oven, again.

Funny, I just put up a child gate to the kitchen....

The one time I spanked my child I realized I was an asshole beating my child. She was being obstinate and disobeying my and I spanked her. She was around four. The spanking accomplished nothing really, it didn't change her behavior as there was not a connection in her mind regarding that behavior and doing something wrong. Never spanked again. Did she get punished for doing things she shouldn't? Of course. Did she understand and agree every time, of course not. Did she learn? Yes she did.

And now my child is prepping to head off to college, with great grades, and great recommendations from her teachers, with a good friend group, and she is kind and caring and supportive of those in need, volunteering her time to help others.

Spanking is completely unnecessary. Of course saying this will come across as attacking what they believe is fair and proper parenting. They will feel insulted and diminished. Don't know what to say to that because it just isn't needed. Just pay attention, teach, punish fairly as needed with out physically hitting your child, as things will turn out at least as good as hitting them.

Tugg
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stratosphere
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:32 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Also, from my experience being someone in their 30s it's readily apparent how the kids I went to school with turned out. The kids whose parents never laid a hand on them have successful careers and stable relationships. The kids who were beaten the worst ended up dead, in prison, or with drug addictions that will likely leave them dead or in prison. Those of us who were mildly hit by our parents took about a decade to become well adjusted adults while we worked through our issues.


Again the liberal mindset like yours is spanking= child abuse there is no middle ground with that mindset. I am in my middle 50's you better believe we had discipline growing up me and my brother were never "abused" in my mind we got some strategic spankings sparingly sometimes even with a belt. That is the problem today with the young kids and the parents raising them. There is no discipline in the home I never disrespected my elders and respected my teachers good luck finding that today with these kids. I am not saying every situation deserves a spanking but there are times when you have to back up your words with an "attention getter" especially if a child is prone to run out in the street. Time out is ok most times all I know is all my friends pretty much grew up like I did and none of them are serial killers they all have families of their own and all successful. There are people who raise their kids with only time outs that's fine it's more about discipline and structure than a spanking but I don't fault anyone who does have kids and has to pop them on the ass every now and then either. But liberals as usual it's my way or the highway thinking and our thinking is wrong that's why kids today are run amok I would never want to be a teacher in todays environment. Oh and by the way after only a few select spankings all my dad had to do was give us the "look" when we started running wild that was enough for us to stop and take pause.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:01 pm

stratosphere wrote:
me and my brother were never "abused" in my mind

Yup, I believe it. In your mind you weren't abused. Hey I got spanked to and I wasn't abused either. It was just the normal thing to do.

Until I hit my child.

Here I am a grown ass man, ten times her sizes grabbing her, forcing her to be still and beating her butt (also called spanking).... and then there she is crying and not understanding (some here have said "they're to young to understand anything else") why I just beat her.... Really dad? You couldn't deal with this in any other way?

As a matter of fact I could. And did. And never tried something as foolish again.

Seriously, you are huge, you are dad, they love you, they depend on you (and mom) for everything, they cannot leave, they cannot really fight or argue any point. They are children, often very young children. And beating their bottom hard, spanking their butt is the best method?

Honestly? This is how you bend or break their will to be in alignment with yours?

After that moment of clarity (I had previously always thought that spanking as the exception, as the "last resort" was fine) I realized I have absolute power over my child (again along with mom). They have no recourse, no way out of my decision to impose punishment on them. Whether that is via violence or some other method. I own them at that moment. And quite frankly I owe it to them to be the absolute best that I can be. So I found I have tons of other options for punishment. Remember how I mentioned that they rely on the parents for everything? How they automatically learn to connect whatever their parents do to them with "how love is"? How they just accept what is done to them as normal, as love, as OK (or their parents wouldn't do it, right?)? How they are completely and utterly dependent on the parents for everything, especially when they are young?

Well I took advantage of that and developed punishments (with consultation with mom of course) that they did not like. No beating on the butt needed. "Time outs", parental disapproval, taking them away from the "fun event" they were misbehaving at, things like this bent their will to ours and changed the behavior.

People can say "it's OK" and "it didn't harm me" all they want. Hey, it didn't harm me after all... my parents loved (and love) me and only had my best interests at heart. They would never do anything bad to me. And they really didn't.

But there are many ways to bend your child's will to yours... yes I am using awkward language. To make a point. We have many options as parents, and whether you choose to believe me or not, you can achieve favorable outcomes in child behavior without spanking a child. Parenting is not easy, it is very tough, daily work, it is taking time out of your day, it is taking you away from whatever you want to do at that moment, it is constant. And they will love you almost no matter what. I think it is good and important to earn that, to try your absolute best. And watching my hand smack down on that butt and watch my child cry and trying to get away, and my continuing to hit my child.... was not "my best"....

Your opinion my differ of course.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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casinterest
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:32 pm

To me. the "Rod" has always been about discipline. Not necessarily physical. There is discipline and decorum that needs to be involved in raising kids. I have had to spank my kids a few times, and it was usually due to them being physical(hitting biting ) with their sibling, and only after multiple escalating discipline methods failed. I never invoked a belt or switch or other device to punish them with.

As they have gotten older , the Rod involves reasoning to a more certain extent.

Now , the Rod is a toy/electronic device that will be donated/hidden for a few days/weeks. It is the lack of playing time at a friend's house. It is events cancelled.

People that fail to discipline their kids are usually the problem. Their kid gets away with everything. They talk back, and they have no respect for the feeling of others. I have also noticed they are the parents that blame the other kids for troubles their own kids cause. These are the worst of the parents, outside of outright abusive parents.
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Jouhou
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:46 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Also, from my experience being someone in their 30s it's readily apparent how the kids I went to school with turned out. The kids whose parents never laid a hand on them have successful careers and stable relationships. The kids who were beaten the worst ended up dead, in prison, or with drug addictions that will likely leave them dead or in prison. Those of us who were mildly hit by our parents took about a decade to become well adjusted adults while we worked through our issues.


Again the liberal mindset like yours is spanking= child abuse there is no middle ground with that mindset. I am in my middle 50's you better believe we had discipline growing up me and my brother were never "abused" in my mind we got some strategic spankings sparingly sometimes even with a belt. That is the problem today with the young kids and the parents raising them. There is no discipline in the home I never disrespected my elders and respected my teachers good luck finding that today with these kids. I am not saying every situation deserves a spanking but there are times when you have to back up your words with an "attention getter" especially if a child is prone to run out in the street. Time out is ok most times all I know is all my friends pretty much grew up like I did and none of them are serial killers they all have families of their own and all successful. There are people who raise their kids with only time outs that's fine it's more about discipline and structure than a spanking but I don't fault anyone who does have kids and has to pop them on the ass every now and then either. But liberals as usual it's my way or the highway thinking and our thinking is wrong that's why kids today are run amok I would never want to be a teacher in todays environment. Oh and by the way after only a few select spankings all my dad had to do was give us the "look" when we started running wild that was enough for us to stop and take pause.


And why are people saying these days that children receive no "discipline" aka no physical abuse? The only people who say this are f*cking boomers who definitely did beat their kids and are literally complaining all the time about "millenials" aka their full grown adult kids. Care to tell me how many parents only "spanked" and nothing else? Probably not a whole lot.

Btw using a belt is not "spanking"

Also the people who bitch about kids being out of control yet have no exposure to them have a few screws loose themselves. They get their info from awful boomer memes on Facebook and not statistics or even personal observation. Yes, kids have always been obnoxious and annoying. They haven't changed.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 5:55 pm

casinterest wrote:
To me. the "Rod" has always been about discipline. Not necessarily physical. There is discipline and decorum that needs to be involved in raising kids.

OK, fair enough. Without any doubt children do need discipline and guidance, they need to understand consequences for actions.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:03 pm

Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
To me. the "Rod" has always been about discipline. Not necessarily physical. There is discipline and decorum that needs to be involved in raising kids.

OK, fair enough. Without any doubt children do need discipline and guidance, they need to understand consequences for actions.

Tugg


Agreed, just don't teach them incorrect lessons like "it's OK to hit people if they're weaker than you".
 
Maloak33
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:20 pm

I don't have any kids, but I know that kids imitate the behavior of the parents.
If the dad smacks the mom around surely the kids might think its ok. I was raised with the rod, and to date I have not lifted a finger towoards any person. I show respect to elderly and females (regardless of race)

I just think that children of today think that they can do anything for the know the worst thing that could happen is a few harsh words, and in my opinion that doesn't help.
eg. Look at the state of the schools these days. pupils slap the teachers, they through things at them showing not an ounce of respect. Even when you walk around in public areas, no kid stands up so that an elderly or a lady can take a seat. These days,my view, kids are all about what is the best for me and me alone.

I might be wrong on the next statement, but did one hear about this kind of things happening in the 60's/70s or 80s in schools?
(Pardon if grammar isn't right, English is my 3rd language)

Mal
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fr8mech
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:45 pm

Tugger wrote:
Funny, I just put up a child gate to the kitchen....


We used gates, to great effect, mostly around stairs.

But, what's the lesson learned with the gate, if any? Quite simply, I don't feel that a toddler can make the connection between a hot stove and being excluded from the kitchen. I removed her from the kitchen only after she attempted to come in contact with the stove. Too me, there was some connection between action and reaction. To just exclude, in the mind of a toddler, can mean so many things.

The spanking came immediately after she came near the stove. Action and consequence. She ran off and sat at the end of the counter, sulking for a few minutes. Then, became the happy toddler she normally was.

To be clear, that was probably the only time I spanked her. My son had the same issue in the kitchen. Another time I would have spanked him, he wound up self-correcting after coming in contact with exposed terminals on an outlet. Luckily, he was knocked away, and yeah, he didn't come in the room again after that.

Jouhou wrote:
Agreed, just don't teach them incorrect lessons like "it's OK to hit people if they're weaker than you".


That's not what disciplinary spanking is. Spanking, when used sparingly and correctly is discipline. It should be tied to an action and the toddler should be able to make the connection between his/her action and the spanking. That's why, in my opinion, spanking is probably ineffective before the age of 2. I just don't think they can make the necessary connection. By age 4, I like to think, my kids were able to reason through my response to their actions, and understand that "No" meant "no". Somehow, now that I have teenagers, that lesson seems to have slipped their minds. But, there a so many more tools to handle them now.
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mham001
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:57 pm

I was a victim of severe child abuse, it has been proven in court. Likening every spanking to child abuse is just an extremist's way of shutting down the conversation. One of my girls would get pinched in the butt rather than spanked because I felt it less violent and wasn't going down that road. The other never really needed it, I guess she just learned from her older sister. Some kids need an 'awakening', it can be a real safety issue if the message isn't sinking in verbally. The point about 'bullying' or creating "fear" through spanking is misguided, we don't do many things out of fear of jail, violence, etc, this is a fact of life in a civilized society.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:04 pm

Curious how those who take a strict no tolerance view on spanking view other extreme modes of discipline. Is time out in a bedroom inappropriate because it creates a moment of separation and can cause anxiety and loneliness in a child? Is elevating one's voice deemed too hurtful? (I am being somewhat sarcastic)

I once elevated my voice while disciplining and I found it to be more fear instilling and hurtful than spanking was (at least in this child). The other child might as well have his ears full of earwax when I try to discipline via elevated voice or timeouts. Fortunately he is old enough that simply discussing things in a distraction free area at eye level does the trick. Every child and parent combination is different. What is most important is having another parent to support you and assist in disciplining.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:48 pm

mham001 wrote:
I was a victim of severe child abuse, it has been proven in court. Likening every spanking to child abuse is just an extremist's way of shutting down the conversation.

And I will affirm that and say that in no way am I likening spanking to abuse.

I simply know there is no need if there are myriad other ways to discipline a child. And I know this through real life trial and error, and after having been raised with spanking being a normal and acceptable tool available for it. It was OK to me. Until I realized the absolute power I wielded and that my child had no chance against me. I am bigger, stronger, smarter, have more resources, and control everything around the child. Seriously.

And even with no spanking, I have smart, respectful, intelligent, appropriately careful kids that do well in school, got jobs in their teens by their own efforts, volunteer and help others, and one who is now accepted into college. They understand discipline and consequences. Now they take what they have learned out in to the life they will lead and build for themselves.

trpmb6 wrote:
Curious how those who take a strict no tolerance view on spanking view other extreme modes of discipline. Is time out in a bedroom inappropriate because it creates a moment of separation and can cause anxiety and loneliness in a child? Is elevating one's voice deemed too hurtful? (I am being somewhat sarcastic)

I once elevated my voice while disciplining and I found it to be more fear instilling and hurtful than spanking was (at least in this child). The other child might as well have his ears full of earwax when I try to discipline via elevated voice or timeouts. Fortunately he is old enough that simply discussing things in a distraction free area at eye level does the trick. Every child and parent combination is different. What is most important is having another parent to support you and assist in disciplining.

Yes a voice can be very impactful. I have learned in my life that I very much have a voice that has the power and ability to project in a way that some would deem harmful, even abusive. I know how to use my voice but it takes no effort for me to make its volume and.... I don't know how to call it... it's power(?) beyond a yell or shout and into what pretty much anyone would call "verbally abusive". So I am pretty careful (I have done that a few times and it is not they father I ever want to be).

I'll tell the MOST ANNOYING thing I ever experienced/witnessed in parenting were parents that would sit or stand around promising consequences or punishment etc. only to do nothing except threaten again. There is one sure way to have a problem or disobedient kid: "You had better stop that right now! If you don't stop by the count of three I'm going to come over there and make you stop! 1....2...3.... !! ... I told you to stop! Stop right now! Get over here.... if you don't get over here right now....." And on it could go. Seriously ? And then there were the "Insta-spankers", the kid would do something, I guess wrong, and the parent would reach out and spank them immediately, hard, once or twice. Then go on (maybe saying "that's what you get!") with whatever they were doing. Or grab and spank the child as they walked by after doing/not doing something a minute or two ago ("I told you to listen/wash your hands!").

Those are some of the worst ways to parent. Kids need to know what it is that is wrong (or be kept from that "wrong" if they have no ability to understand) and know that this is the punishment and consequence and that it can and will be avoided if they do not repeat whatever it was they were doing. Some people don't get that.

Tugg
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trpmb6
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 pm

Tugger wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:
Curious how those who take a strict no tolerance view on spanking view other extreme modes of discipline. Is time out in a bedroom inappropriate because it creates a moment of separation and can cause anxiety and loneliness in a child? Is elevating one's voice deemed too hurtful? (I am being somewhat sarcastic)

I once elevated my voice while disciplining and I found it to be more fear instilling and hurtful than spanking was (at least in this child). The other child might as well have his ears full of earwax when I try to discipline via elevated voice or timeouts. Fortunately he is old enough that simply discussing things in a distraction free area at eye level does the trick. Every child and parent combination is different. What is most important is having another parent to support you and assist in disciplining.

Yes a voice can be very impactful. I have learned in my life that I very much have a voice that has the power and ability to project in a way that some would deem harmful, even abusive. I know how to use my voice but it takes no effort for me to make its volume and.... I don't know how to call it... it's power(?) beyond a yell or shout and into what pretty much anyone would call "verbally abusive". So I am pretty careful (I have done that a few times and it is not they father I ever want to be).

I'll tell the MOST ANNOYING thing I ever experienced/witnessed in parenting were parents that would sit or stand around promising consequences or punishment etc. only to do nothing except threaten again. There is one sure way to have a problem or disobedient kid: "You had better stop that right now! If you don't stop by the count of three I'm going to come over there and make you stop! 1....2...3.... !! ... I told you to stop! Stop right now! Get over here.... if you don't get over here right now....." And on it could go. Seriously ? And then there were the "Insta-spankers", the kid would do something, I guess wrong, and the parent would reach out and spank them immediately, hard, once or twice. Then go on (maybe saying "that's what you get!") with whatever they were doing. Or grab and spank the child as they walked by after doing/not doing something a minute or two ago ("I told you to listen/wash your hands!").

Those are some of the worst ways to parent. Kids need to know what it is that is wrong (or be kept from that "wrong" if they have no ability to understand) and know that this is the punishment and consequence and that it can and will be avoided if they do not repeat whatever it was they were doing. Some people don't get that.

Tugg


Yes, I believe that a powerful elevated voice can be more harmful than spanking. I've seen what it can do. Not proud of that moment - ashamed of that more than the times I've spanked or swatted a hand. Thankful the poor guy didn't piss himself.

Agreed that the most annoying thing is the unfulfilled threat. Or the delayed punishment. It's like rubbing a dog's nose in poop that it left in the house 5 hours ago while you were at work. The deed was done, they have no idea what you're doing.
 
WIederling
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:44 pm

We've always tried go for proving our admonishments with the lesser dangers.
"it is hot, feel the heat on your hand, on your face? if you touch it it will hurt."
and hurt it did. give reasons and how to detect. usually works rather well.
Teach your kids to be introspective about their environment and not look to papa or mama
for reactions. Lots of modern methods of raising kids is too much linked on "binding" kids to their parents.
Your job is to see that they don't kill themselves before adulthood. Your job is not to micromanage them or keep them limited to a "kids reserve" :-)
We've never had to handle our kids in "Captive plane" mode like a lot of other parents seem to be forced to do.
Murphy is an optimist
 
bennett123
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:55 pm

Jouhou

Not sure where you get this idea about kids taking a decade to recover from mild chastisement.

Basically, I was sometimes a defiant child. Apparently my Aunt was the same as a child. There are going to be times when the adult has to force you to step back.

Looking at how I developed, I regard force as being sometimes the only option, but one to be avoided if possible.

IMO, the key is to use as little as you can, with a clear and immediate cause and outcome. Also never bluff and threaten something which you are not prepared to carry out.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:10 am

When I was in Catholic grade school in the 1960's (1961-1968), violent physical punishment was common. Even in the 7th grade (my last there) the nuns used 1/4" thick yardsticks on your butt for minor infactions. I recall in 2nd grade a kid who left the school premises get his hand buckles bashed by a ruler by the 'Mother Superior'. And you were afraid to fight back as your parents give permission and if you did, you were afraid God would strike you dead and if God didn't then your parent might be violent to you. It also encouraged other boys to be bullies, upon smaller, weaker boys like me. I bet many of the Nuns (and in some male schools the Brothers and Priests) who did this violence were victims of violence or so sexually repressed they took it out on kids. The nuns and teachers I respected best there were those that were non-violent and truly live the spirit of the faith.

Yes, at that time parents and yes, private and public school teachers and administrators used violent means of control. The rise of protest from the Vietnam war era, young people challenging war and violence in general, the recognition of violent discipline was wrong and counterproductive, racism with its use, lawsuits, all led to laws being passed to end violent discipline in schools and by parents. Today we do face issues with parents who don't do their job, are too stressed over poverty, working too much, single mothers and peer pressure so no or not enough discipline. We do need to have non-violent ways to discipline but it must be there.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:17 am

I believe spanking and using a paddle or such is not the same as child abuse. If done correctly. My mom used to threaten me with the wooden spoon but never hit me with it. Threw it at me once and missed but I learned my lesson. My dad was the same with this stick he kept next to him at the dinner table. He said if we got out of line we would get it. Never really did. Once I did something real bad and he gave me one right across my ass. It hurt and I never did that again.

Now if parents are prone to rage and beating all the time then that is child abuse but in my case I learned don't do drugs and keep out of trouble and it did me right.
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Jouhou
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Tue May 07, 2019 4:14 am

bennett123 wrote:
Jouhou

Not sure where you get this idea about kids taking a decade to recover from mild chastisement.

Basically, I was sometimes a defiant child. Apparently my Aunt was the same as a child. There are going to be times when the adult has to force you to step back.

Looking at how I developed, I regard force as being sometimes the only option, but one to be avoided if possible.

IMO, the key is to use as little as you can, with a clear and immediate cause and outcome. Also never bluff and threaten something which you are not prepared to carry out.


That's mostly me sincerely doubting anyone *just* spanks their kids in a manner that is systematic and non-emotional. I've never heard of anyone who had parents that did that. It's mostly parents having a bad day and a few drinks deep getting annoyed and impulsively whacking their kids. which is completely legal in most states. Hence why I consider it in the range of "mild". Contrast that with the kids I grew up who were abused in a manner that was illegal, one girl was shot in the leg by her father, one girls mother threw her through a window (closed, through the glass). That is what's illegal in this country.

My dad got mad because I lost a homework assignment and hit me over the head with a shovel (the plastic ended snow shoveling kind) which is legal because it left no permanent injury. Did that teach me anything? Yeah, that my dad's an asshole and I still don't forgive him. I'm legitimately angry this shit is still legal and people keep defending it because they don't want their precious "spankings" made illegal. As far as I'm concerned "spanking" is a euphemism for everything else parents do to their kids.

If the actions would land your ass in prison if you did it to an adult, why should it be legal to do it to a kid?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:18 am

I was never spanked as a child but I'll admit to getting a thrill when a girl gets a little rough with me. You wouldn't think a house slipper would sting so much. But it taught me to be on time for a date the next time. :smile:
 
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DL717
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Mon May 13, 2019 6:53 am

Jouhou wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Jouhou

Not sure where you get this idea about kids taking a decade to recover from mild chastisement.

Basically, I was sometimes a defiant child. Apparently my Aunt was the same as a child. There are going to be times when the adult has to force you to step back.

Looking at how I developed, I regard force as being sometimes the only option, but one to be avoided if possible.

IMO, the key is to use as little as you can, with a clear and immediate cause and outcome. Also never bluff and threaten something which you are not prepared to carry out.


That's mostly me sincerely doubting anyone *just* spanks their kids in a manner that is systematic and non-emotional. I've never heard of anyone who had parents that did that. It's mostly parents having a bad day and a few drinks deep getting annoyed and impulsively whacking their kids. which is completely legal in most states. Hence why I consider it in the range of "mild". Contrast that with the kids I grew up who were abused in a manner that was illegal, one girl was shot in the leg by her father, one girls mother threw her through a window (closed, through the glass). That is what's illegal in this country.

My dad got mad because I lost a homework assignment and hit me over the head with a shovel (the plastic ended snow shoveling kind) which is legal because it left no permanent injury. Did that teach me anything? Yeah, that my dad's an asshole and I still don't forgive him. I'm legitimately angry this shit is still legal and people keep defending it because they don't want their precious "spankings" made illegal. As far as I'm concerned "spanking" is a euphemism for everything else parents do to their kids.

If the actions would land your ass in prison if you did it to an adult, why should it be legal to do it to a kid?


I would argue that your view is jaded by what your jackhole parent(s) did to you. Having grown up in the 1960’s I got may share of spankings. I was a pain in the ass, but they never beat me, just a smack on the butt. Except that time I dropped an f bomb at the dinner table. For that I got to lick of a bar of Ivory a couple of times. That worked pretty damn well.
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KentB27
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Tue May 14, 2019 9:41 am

From my personal experience, spanking worked on me as a child.

When I was a kid and I was out of line my parents would usually give me a swift spanking.....They never beat me or abused me, it would just be a quick slap that would hurt for a couple minutes. It worked. I always stopped doing whatever it was that wasn't acceptable behavior and I knew that if I misbehaved I would be spanked and I didn't want that. It would make me think, "if I do this, will I get a spanking?" if I thought the answer was yes then I usually chose not to do something that would get me in trouble. I remember one time I was being sarcastic to my mother and she slapped me right across the face. I was so surprised and taken back by it that I didn't speak to her disrespectfully for a long time after that. Message received.

As my brothers and I got older and stronger and were big enough to retaliate, the punishments gradually turned into groundings and having things taken away from us. But I really do think the threat of being popped in the ass when I was out of line when I was little was a good way to lay the foundation for making better decisions as a teenager and a young adult.
Last edited by KentB27 on Tue May 14, 2019 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
KentB27
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Tue May 14, 2019 9:58 am

johns624 wrote:
If spanking was so bad, why are kids so much worse behaved today? I see children today acting in church or restaurants like I would've never thought of acting.
As a segue--I always thought the modern educational system was talking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one side they tell the kids "If your parents ever lay a hand on you, let us know because they shouldn't do that". Then they come right back with "parents aren't doing their jobs. Their children won't listen and have no respect for authority". Sorry, can't have it both ways.


My mother is a kindergarten teacher and has been for over 30 years. I asked her fairly recently if kids were better behaved 20-30 years ago than they are today. Her response was "yes they were, kids today are by far the most ill behaved that I've ever dealt with in my years of teaching". I believe that the rise of permissive parenting and parents trying to be their child's friend rather than their parent is a large cause of this. The education system is also largely to blame. Over the past decade or two, blame for bad behavior has shifted from the student to the teacher. Back in the 90's and prior, it was typically the student's fault when they misbehaved. In the past 10-20 years or so, it has now shifted to where the teacher is blamed for just about everything. If the student is getting bad grades, it's the teacher's fault. If the student is lashing out, it's the teacher's fault. Teachers are also no longer allowed to discipline students in the classroom, and the students know it. My mother has kindergarten students that throw the F bomb at her!

This meme sums up exactly what I am talking about:
Image
 
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DL717
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Wed May 15, 2019 6:20 am

KentB27 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
If spanking was so bad, why are kids so much worse behaved today? I see children today acting in church or restaurants like I would've never thought of acting.
As a segue--I always thought the modern educational system was talking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one side they tell the kids "If your parents ever lay a hand on you, let us know because they shouldn't do that". Then they come right back with "parents aren't doing their jobs. Their children won't listen and have no respect for authority". Sorry, can't have it both ways.


My mother is a kindergarten teacher and has been for over 30 years. I asked her fairly recently if kids were better behaved 20-30 years ago than they are today. Her response was "yes they were, kids today are by far the most ill behaved that I've ever dealt with in my years of teaching". I believe that the rise of permissive parenting and parents trying to be their child's friend rather than their parent is a large cause of this. The education system is also largely to blame. Over the past decade or two, blame for bad behavior has shifted from the student to the teacher. Back in the 90's and prior, it was typically the student's fault when they misbehaved. In the past 10-20 years or so, it has now shifted to where the teacher is blamed for just about everything. If the student is getting bad grades, it's the teacher's fault. If the student is lashing out, it's the teacher's fault. Teachers are also no longer allowed to discipline students in the classroom, and the students know it. My mother has kindergarten students that throw the F bomb at her!

This meme sums up exactly what I am talking about:
Image


Truth. My younger brother is a teacher. He’s had it and is considering retiring earlier than he planned because of this very issue. He gets some pretty shitty emails from parents. They all want little Johnny to go to Harvard. How dare you ruin his life! He’d love to fire back... “ma’am, your kid is an idiot. Lower the expectations”.
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mbmbos
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Re: Sparing the rod?

Wed May 15, 2019 2:02 pm

Almost all peer-reviewed research suggest corporal punishment is ineffective. It correlates highly with incarceration rates, recidivism rates, levels of juvenile delinquency, and has a strong negative correlation with future income, career and educational achievements...and the list goes on. In fact, corporal punishment has been compared to outright parental neglect because of their similarities when outcomes are measured.

Parents and teachers can establish boundaries wihout hitting or otherwise physically punishing children.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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