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Pi7472000
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Why do people still believe in God?

Sun May 05, 2019 11:05 pm

Why do people still believe in God? Science, research and facts have proven there is no God. It is incredible to me that humans believe in thinking from 2000 years ago when people had no concept of the universe or the Earth. This type of thinking is the main cause of human suffering in today’s world. Religious ideaology should be relegated to mythology classes. Will our era , 500 years from now, be looked upon as we view the Middle and Dark Ages?
 
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stl07
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Sun May 05, 2019 11:52 pm

Why do people still celebrate dead people "visiting" them in Mexico...tradition! Why do we trick or treat to scare away evil spirits on Halloween...tradition!
Here are many of the reasons why people still believe...
Tradition!!!!, spirituality, morals, fulfillment, purpose in life, it gives some people who can't make good decisions an incentive to, people have experienced revolutionary life changes after joining a religion or meeting people of one, people of faith are proven to be happier than atheists (everyone likes to hide this, but it is true), and, perhaps significantly, God has not been scientifically disproven because you can't. If you have some real research on that, be sure to post it. On the other hand, those that believe in God say that the proof of say Jesus or Muhammed being alive is scientific evidence that God exists. Seriously though, go to an event with a mainstream religion (not some crazy bible-thumping weirdos) and see the joy in the people there and ask people why they belive. You will learn a lot and it will really help you with this question
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Spar
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:14 am

Keep in mind that god is bundled with religion and all the social mores and conventions that are bundled into religion.

"God" or the god concept is a very hard thing for most people to shake because the concept of god exists from the beginning of life for all humans. A child's parents supply the god concept from the beginnings of life until the age of self-sustainability for all people and long past physical independence for others. The all knowing, all seeing, dispenser of justice and retribution concept begins with the parent. Later, even if a person comes to a momentary intellectual realization that there is no logical reason to support "god", there is little incentive for most people to explore the ramifications or to dwell on the matter. The pillar (or leaning post) of "god" tends to remain even if god is seen to be myth.

There are incentives for evolution of religious practices, but the diehard conservatives of every religious group will use every tool available to them, no matter how unethical to resist change. Yet change will come.

500 years from now will probably bring only incremental change. I think they will look to our era as the beginnings of enlightenment; but the zealots will certainly still be in existence.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:17 am

It is all about "Excuses", "Motives", and "Explanations" in the world we live in.

If there is no scientific explanation for something (at that moment in time), then it is easy to say that some sort of "invisible power" is the cause of that something. Often, the invisible power is labeled "God".
Religion or faith can also be a great motivator. Lots of people do things the way they do because they are motivated by their beliefs or religious leader to do so. For instance, a lot of Jewish people found hiding places and shelter in the eastern part of The Netherlands during the Second World War. Particularly in that region. One reason was that the local pastors strongly preached against the evils of Nazism while urging the local Christians to "do good" and help the Jewish stay out of the clutches of the evil Germans.
Having an "excuse" (to act in a certain way) is another factor in the behavior of human beings. If someone hates you (for whatever reason) and you happen to be of the "wrong faith". Well, how convenient that we now have an "excuse" to either convert or kill you...because the "Holy Book" says so. And you even get rewarded for it (Virgin in heaven, etc.)!
Last edited by Dieuwer on Mon May 06, 2019 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:19 am

Fortunately many people haven't kept up the charade here in France, so now the zealots are in the clear minority.

I know a guy my age, whose parents didn't raise him religiously, his father is a psychiatrist, he's an engineer, and he became religious a few years ago, and married a religious woman. I really can't understand that.
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WarRI1
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:22 am

When someone explains how this all came about from the beginning, then maybe I will not think a God is possible. I do not want to hear about the big bang theory.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:59 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Why do people still believe in God? Science, research and facts have proven there is no God. It is incredible to me that humans believe in thinking from 2000 years ago when people had no concept of the universe or the Earth. This type of thinking is the main cause of human suffering in today’s world. Religious ideaology should be relegated to mythology classes. Will our era , 500 years from now, be looked upon as we view the Middle and Dark Ages?


I disagree. Science doesn't prove God's lack of existence. Science merely proves that A happens because of B & C & D.

As I've said many, many times, removing religion is not going to bring the world to utopia. Plenty of people suffer because of things that are not religious in nature, like economic greed, tribal strife, and the all the other stuff people fight over. We're not living in a world conjured up by John Lennon.
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Ken777
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:19 am

Aesma wrote:
Fortunately many people haven't kept up the charade here in France, so now the zealots are in the clear minority.

I know a guy my age, whose parents didn't raise him religiously, his father is a psychiatrist, he's an engineer, and he became religious a few years ago, and married a religious woman. I really can't understand that.


Just recently France endured a horrid fire in a magnificent Cathedral. I think you might remember that with great sadness.

There was an out pouring of donations, starting the first day. Many of the multi-millionaires and billionaires were fast to donate, building the first day total to over $200 million, with donations on just the second day topping $800 millions. Donations have been flowing from around the world because people actually care. Most are not zealots, but quietly religious individuals who will find personal peace in helping rebuild Notre Dame with a small donation. I hope that my wife and I can go to Paris again in the early Fall and, if there are donation spots around the Cathedral we'll be more than happy to top in a few Euros. That helps a little with the re-construction and I personally like the idea of being a part of that effort, no matter how small. Notre Dame will be standing long after I"m dead and others in the future will help in rebuilding it when necessary.
 
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:23 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Why do people still believe in God? Science, research and facts have proven there is no God. It is incredible to me that humans believe in thinking from 2000 years ago when people had no concept of the universe or the Earth. This type of thinking is the main cause of human suffering in today’s world. Religious ideaology should be relegated to mythology classes. Will our era , 500 years from now, be looked upon as we view the Middle and Dark Ages?


A lot further back than 2,000 years ago. You might expand your religious history to include Judaism, Hindus, Buddhist, too.

Based on recent history, you might not be interested in religion, but religion might be interested in you.

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Jouhou
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:32 am

Ken777 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Fortunately many people haven't kept up the charade here in France, so now the zealots are in the clear minority.

I know a guy my age, whose parents didn't raise him religiously, his father is a psychiatrist, he's an engineer, and he became religious a few years ago, and married a religious woman. I really can't understand that.


Just recently France endured a horrid fire in a magnificent Cathedral. I think you might remember that with great sadness.

There was an out pouring of donations, starting the first day. Many of the multi-millionaires and billionaires were fast to donate, building the first day total to over $200 million, with donations on just the second day topping $800 millions. Donations have been flowing from around the world because people actually care. Most are not zealots, but quietly religious individuals who will find personal peace in helping rebuild Notre Dame with a small donation. I hope that my wife and I can go to Paris again in the early Fall and, if there are donation spots around the Cathedral we'll be more than happy to top in a few Euros. That helps a little with the re-construction and I personally like the idea of being a part of that effort, no matter how small. Notre Dame will be standing long after I"m dead and others in the future will help in rebuilding it when necessary.


Notre Dame has more architectural significance than it has religious significance. Likewise, the amount of craftsmanship that went into its construction puts a massive pricetag on rebuilding it, even with the stone parts still standing. We're too cheap to build buildings like that these days.

As for science disproving the existence of god, not so much. The existence of God is sort of a hard concept to disprove isn't it?

Anyways it makes people feel happy, I have no issues with it as long as they don't hurt others with it or force secular governments to take on religious laws.
 
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:48 am

What's wrong with believing in God? I believe in him, and yet I still believe science is the way to explain the universe. It's called having your cake and eating it too. I'm not really religious but I was raised (loosely) Catholic; and when I go through tough times I drop a few Hail Mary's and Our Fathers.

Higher powers may be manmade constructs, but look at the times the construct for the Abrahamic religions was created; it wouldve sucked ass to live in those days. People found comfort and hope in those religions to get through the hard times like being ravaged by war, Black Plague, famine, etc... Also it helped lay the basis for western civilization and created a bunch of norms we still follow.

Plus, who said science can't be the method of God's work? Taking the Big Bang for example, compare that to "In the beginning there was nothing then God said, 'let there be light' and there were stars." There's some pretty big parallels there.

Like Jouhou said, as long as people aren't rude or even forceful in putting their religion on others, live and let live.
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DocLightning
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:48 am

Jouhou wrote:
We're too cheap to build buildings like that these days.


Not cheap, but more efficient. We have machines, materials, and techniques that they didn't have 700 years ago.

As for belief in God, we see that in societies where peoples' physical needs are met (food, housing, medical care) and the world is not so chaotic, there is less religion. Religious participation has dropped precipitously in Europe and North America, with the more developed Asian nations not far behind (although the role of religion there is quite different).
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:05 am

DocLightning wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
We're too cheap to build buildings like that these days.


Not cheap, but more efficient. We have machines, materials, and techniques that they didn't have 700 years ago.

As for belief in God, we see that in societies where peoples' physical needs are met (food, housing, medical care) and the world is not so chaotic, there is less religion. Religious participation has dropped precipitously in Europe and North America, with the more developed Asian nations not far behind (although the role of religion there is quite different).


My other favorite message board is one that focuses on architecture and urbanism-

We are dismayed every single project that gets Value Engineered to death- pretty much all of them. All the neat curves and textures and features disappear from the original proposal in short order. Every. Single. Time.

They build buildings that are supposed to blend in with the old buildings with load bearing masonry- they put up cheap orange panels that are supposed to remind us of brick or terra cotta but they really just look awful. And the fake brick facades they put up actually weaken the structure unlike real brick which strengthens the structure.

Don't get me started on the buildings built so cheaply it's clear they are meant to fall apart in 30 years and will need to be demolished.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 4:10 am

Can somebody here who believes in 'God' please define 'God'?
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zrs70
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:13 am

The problem I see is that most people put God into a box. Religion and religious people often refer to God in terms that diminish potential.

How many refer to God as “Him”?
How many expect/ hope God to respond to each prayer?

I don’t believe in a God that allows suffering.
But I do believe in a God who can give me strength to face difficulties.

I don’t believe in a God who wants me to destroy my enemies
But I do believe in a God who inspires to to build bridges rather than walls.

I believe that’s God is the connection two people feel when they share a moment.

If I want to feel good, I will eat ice cream. But God will be present if I give the food to a homeless person.

My theology does not come out of new age feel good stuff. It is based on 1000’s of years of Jewish exploration.
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UAUA
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:48 am

I am a Catholic and my belief is absolute. No reason.
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flipdewaf
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Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:28 am

UAUA wrote:
I am a Catholic and my belief is absolute.
Impossible, it cannot be absolute because of the contradictions in the holy book.
UAUA wrote:
No reason.
of course there is a reason, you may just be ignorant of it.

I shall wait till tomorrow when I can get my computer out and respond to the other parts of this thread appropriately. This reply was short and easy in its corrections required.

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VapourTrails
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:31 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Why do people still believe in God? Science, research and facts have proven there is no God. It is incredible to me that humans believe in thinking from 2000 years ago when people had no concept of the universe or the Earth. This type of thinking is the main cause of human suffering in today’s world. Religious ideaology should be relegated to mythology classes. Will our era, 500 years from now, be looked upon as we view the Middle and Dark Ages?


I have never been further away from religion in my whole life, at this point. For me, that is being raised a Catholic, and to a lesser extent, a (my, not others) belief in Christianity. I’ll leave it there. :worried: ~ For now, I believe there is more than one ‘God’ and so much of ‘the afterlife’ is yet to be understood, and how it relates to ‘us’ and planet Earth. I agree with your last sentence, so much to learn, if we are open to it, and if we are still here. Sorry, didn’t mean that last bit to sound too gloomy. :boggled:
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 10:59 am

VapourTrails wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Why do people still believe in God? Science, research and facts have proven there is no God. It is incredible to me that humans believe in thinking from 2000 years ago when people had no concept of the universe or the Earth. This type of thinking is the main cause of human suffering in today’s world. Religious ideaology should be relegated to mythology classes. Will our era, 500 years from now, be looked upon as we view the Middle and Dark Ages?


I have never been further away from religion in my whole life, at this point. For me, that is being raised a Catholic, and to a lesser extent, a (my, not others) belief in Christianity. I’ll leave it there. :worried: ~ For now, I believe there is more than one ‘God’
why do you believe there is more than one god?
VapourTrails wrote:
and so much of ‘the afterlife’ is yet to be understood
yes, 100% as there is no credible evidence there is an after
VapourTrails wrote:
, and how it relates to ‘us’ and planet Earth. I agree with your last sentence, so much to learn, if we are open to it, and if we are still here.
we have a system for that, science.
VapourTrails wrote:
Sorry, didn’t mean that last bit to sound too gloomy. :boggled:
it isn’t gloomy at all, the quest for greater understanding starts with realising we do not know everything, we are all ignorant.

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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:43 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
When someone explains how this all came about from the beginning, then maybe I will not think a God is possible. I do not want to hear about the big bang theory.


Agree with this. With the things God has done in my life, no one can convince me it was all just a “coincidence”. Scientists sure have net been able to. And I do believe in science. It’s just that I believe in God too.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:47 pm

jdstJD wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When someone explains how this all came about from the beginning, then maybe I will not think a God is possible. I do not want to hear about the big bang theory.


Agree with this. With the things God has done in my life, no one can convince me it was all just a “coincidence”. Scientists sure have net been able to. And I do believe in science. It’s just that I believe in God too.

What has god done and what evidence do you have that makes it more likely to be god than it is to be a coincidence or indeed planned by a human or totally explainable by science?

Fred


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jdstJD
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:13 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When someone explains how this all came about from the beginning, then maybe I will not think a God is possible. I do not want to hear about the big bang theory.


Agree with this. With the things God has done in my life, no one can convince me it was all just a “coincidence”. Scientists sure have net been able to. And I do believe in science. It’s just that I believe in God too.

What has god done and what evidence do you have that makes it more likely to be god than it is to be a coincidence or indeed planned by a human or totally explainable by science?

Fred


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Well, in my view, the foundation of Christianity is that you believe “in God the Father almighty; the maker of Heaven and Earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, dead and buried. The third day he arose from the dead. He ascended into Heaven and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I am to “believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and Christ everlasting”. The whole idea of being. Christian is to believe in that without having “evidence” in the purely scientific sense. I realize to those who are skeptical, that believing in something without proof or evidence of its existence is silly, but believers believe because of what they have experienced in their lives that they BELIEVE are a direct result of God’s existence. I don’t ever try to force anyone to believe what I believe. Nor do I believe that I have to prove to anyone that God exists. I don’t follow religion just to follow a crowd and do rituals that don’t mean anything and where everyone just repeats what someone else tells you to repeat without any personal connection or understanding what they are saying. All I have to do is live my own life based on my beliefs and let everyone else live theirs they way the chose to based on what they individually believe. I recited the Lord’s Prayer above not as a blind recitation of something’s I don’t understand, but as a statement of what I BELIEVE as a Christian. I also take teachings of the Bible as illustrations of the principles God wants people to apply to their lives. I don’t take everything in the Bible literally. I know how to put things in historical context. My faith is just that: faith.
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invertalon
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:36 pm

I can’t stand religion (raised Catholic, but even as a young kid never really ‘believed’ and found it all silly)… But even though I am not religious at all, and I do believe and trust in the sciences, I also can’t throw away the idea of some huge power out there (God) that had some influence on everything we know today.

We simply just don’t know for sure. We might not be able to fathom a higher power and how miniscule the universal might be. It’s fascinating all around.

You can take the start of the Universe back to the big bang… But before that? Nothingness? Energy cannot be create or destroyed, just change form… As we know it, of course. But who is to say that is true?

How do we know our entire Universe isn’t the relative size of a single atom in another world/dimension/whatever? We don’t. Science isn’t the end all be all, we learn new things all the time, science changes. They can find out tomorrow that the Universe wasn’t created as they once thought.

It's fun to think and ponder about what they hell we are, how we really got here, etc… Again, religion itself is just really silly to me and all the bibles/stories/beliefs people obsess over… People just find comfort in it, I guess.

But who is to say everything we know it today isn’t just like the ending of Men in Black, where giant aliens are playing marbles with our entire Universe and many others? Because science doesn’t say so, yet? Or because we can’t fathom such a reality? You can’t exactly rule that out, if you think about it.

Think of an ant hill next to an 8 lane highway. Those ants have no concept or understanding of what is right in front of them. They can walk on it, sense it, feel it, etc… But they still have no understanding of it. Does it mean it’s not there? Nope. Something may be right in front of our eyes, all around us, but we just can’t see or understand it. You never know.

Believing in a God, to me, isn’t all that crazy because there is no proof either way. If people find comfort in believing in a higher being and can be better humans to one another and make life more enjoyable, that’s awesome.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:36 pm

jdstJD wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
When someone explains how this all came about from the beginning, then maybe I will not think a God is possible. I do not want to hear about the big bang theory.


Agree with this. With the things God has done in my life, no one can convince me it was all just a “coincidence”. Scientists sure have net been able to. And I do believe in science. It’s just that I believe in God too.


For me it is fine that people want to believe in a supreme being, as long as they don't expect me to believe in it or demand certain behavior because of their religion. I respect people's boundaries as long as they respect mine.
As for science, you do not have to believe in science, you can do your own research and come to the same conclusion. So science and religion are certainly not at the same level.
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Tugger
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:11 pm

What I don't get is the crassness of some that believe "God" can only be a male.... really? Why? If we are made in "god's image" then god is both male and female at the very least. That some imagine that half the human population is unfit to lead or be involved in the creation of human life, especially when that half is in fact DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the ongoing creation of ALL human life. Is, as I said, crass if not silly on its face.

As to why I believe that it is possible there could be a "God"?
I believe that there is likely extraterrestrial life in the universe.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (or God).
I know love is not scientific at all and it feels like there is something more in life.
I can't explain everything in life and the universe yet.
So why not?

But... I also don't say that anyone needs to obey some outside unknown entity for any reason nor that some entity is watching and tracking everything we do and will condemn someone to be "left out" for eternity.

(Also folks: Eternity.... that is an awful long time... do people actually understand that they are advocating that they will "live on" for billions and billions of billions of years into the future and beyond the life of the universe? I can barely imagine living 500 years, which I believe will be possible someday in the not too distant future - I personally want to live to at least 120. But "everlasting"? "Eternal"? Doubt it....)

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einsteinboricua
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:31 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Science, research and facts have proven there is no God.

That's the whole dilemma. There's no proof either way. So this statement is false.

stl07 wrote:
Why do people still celebrate dead people "visiting" them in Mexico...tradition! Why do we trick or treat to scare away evil spirits on Halloween...tradition!

Ehh...a bit of apples and oranges. Religious ceremonies may be tradition, but religion itself is not tradition. The Day of the Dead is a cultural thing (which conflicts with religion that discourages believing spirits coming back from the dead) and Halloween (in the American sense) is really a commercial celebration.

Dieuwer wrote:
It is all about "Excuses", "Motives", and "Explanations" in the world we live in.

That's pretty much it. It's an attempt to justify actions and explain them if there's no logical sense.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As I've said many, many times, removing religion is not going to bring the world to utopia.

Not immediately, but we would experience a reduction in conflicts. There would be no more Shia vs Sunni, no Middle East problem (Jerusalem would be just another regular city), no radical Islam (though I'm of the opinion that it's kooks using Islam as a shield), and no stuff about how gay marriage and abortion are sins.

WarRI1 wrote:
When someone explains how this all came about from the beginning, then maybe I will not think a God is possible. I do not want to hear about the big bang theory.

When you stop to think about one of the theories of how the Universe may end, it actually makes sense to think that everything began with a Big Bang. I give credibility to the Big Bounce, which states that our current universe began after the collapse of a previous universe into a singularity event and bounced back to the current state. All information and data was lost so there is no way to know anything about a previous iteration of the universe or even how many times it has undergone a bounce. I believe that has more likelihood than a deity (that has apparently existed forever) floating around for eons before deciding a few millennia ago to create things as we know now.

And I have to be honest, for an all-powerful deity that says to love mankind, it really did an poor job to make sure everyone has access to resources and chance at happiness. And while you may say that it's up to the individual to accept the deity, look no further than those who HAVE accepted it and still suffer, whether due to an incurable/terminal disease, economic hardships, or emotional distress (the loss of people dear to them or having gone through a traumatic experience).
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:50 pm

In the 19 century the bible was overturned. It is not a unitary book, it is books. The various parts are more or less related to certain periods of post stone age eras. There are many parts no one defends, more inconsistencies than most believers want to admit. Everyone has been forced to admit that their system only survived by selectively choosing only parts you like.

In the 20th century "God is Dead" was widely discussed. But more interesting is just what idea of god one believed or denied.

In the 21st century we are proceeding to overturn classical understanding of Homo sapiens. Rationality cannot be assumed. Consciousness however defined seems vaporous. Evolutionary morality depicts anything but what Jew, Christians, Islams, Deists, Buddhists, or atheists (sorry didn't capitalize LOL) want to assert. Ideas of beauty, truth, and goodness are seen as far more endangered than earlier eras.

Myself, I am a believer, but pretty agnostic about what I am willing to assert. Perhaps all those existentialist classes have struck and stuck. Pursueing good is somehow a moral quality and essential.
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Tugger
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:59 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Pursuing good is somehow a moral quality and essential.

I have found that "good" exceeds "bad" because doing good is a selfish act, it helps you by bringing more to your team, more people will be with you and help you if you do work that supports and helps them, that helps others. This could be on the "51% vs 49% majority balance so it could seem like "bad" is more prevalent (we seem to notice and remember "bad" more) but slowly but surely "good" is the imperative.

Humans work collectively to better themselves and that only really works when people aren't just killing others randomly or abusing children or stealing from others, etc. "Good" is a more normal and natural state for humans that not. No god or eternal punishment system needed.

Tugg
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Redd
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:34 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
When someone explains how this all came about from the beginning, then maybe I will not think a God is possible. I do not want to hear about the big bang theory.


The first modern solution of general relativity that would characterize a black hole was found by Karl Schwarzschild in 1916, although its interpretation as a region of space from which nothing can escape was first published by David Finkelstein in 1958.

That was just the pure genius of science, and it took us until 2 weeks ago to actually get a picture proving they exist. Even if you have a very limited knowledge of science, you have a very good understanding of the probability of the big bang. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you should believe in a bearded creator who'll send you to hell if you misbehave.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:57 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Why do people still believe in God? Science, research and facts have proven there is no God.


No. Science has not disproven that there is a God. There is still a place for a God outside of the boundaries of what is known and understood. Even the most brilliant scientists will tell you that.
On the other hand, science has seen no conclusive evidence that there is one either.

What has been disproven is the concept of the various organised religions that are based around one or several Gods and which would revolve around Mankind and the Earth.
Religious belief is pretty much a defense mechanism that the brain uses to give its own existence meaning versus the harsh reality that we are just a cog in the vast machine that is Life and are just designed to pass our genetic make up along and die... In as such, even not being religious, I can see the point of religious belief as something that helps some people go through life.
But then it has, through the ages and to this day, mostly been used to control and manipulate people by the means of organised religions.

We are eventually just going to have to accept that there is no God-like creature looking after our individual selves or even after the human race at all and and learn to be happy with our relative insignificance. We just are not collectively smart or humble enough to get there yet.
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:29 pm

jdstJD wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
jdstJD wrote:

Agree with this. With the things God has done in my life, no one can convince me it was all just a “coincidence”. Scientists sure have net been able to. And I do believe in science. It’s just that I believe in God too.

What has god done and what evidence do you have that makes it more likely to be god than it is to be a coincidence or indeed planned by a human or totally explainable by science?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, in my view, the foundation of Christianity is that you believe “in God the Father almighty; the maker of Heaven and Earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
A mis-translation of the words meaning young girl in arabic text, not in fact a vrigin, but no evidence just assertions so far.
jdstJD wrote:
suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, dead and buried. The third day he arose from the dead.
No evidence that he was infact dead when he was taken down from the cross and the fact that there were several people around at the time who apparently did the same thing shows that Jesus was just a run of the mill kinda guy
jdstJD wrote:
He ascended into Heaven and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
How do you know? do you have any evidence?
jdstJD wrote:
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I am to “believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and Christ everlasting”.
None of this is evidence for even Jesus existing and even if it was and Jesus did exist and did all these acts then that is not proof of god either
jdstJD wrote:
The whole idea of being. Christian is to believe in that without having “evidence” in the purely scientific sense.
Evidence in the scientific sense measn that it can have a demonstrable effect on the world, if it isnt doing that then it isn't anything. If it is having an effect then show it.
jdstJD wrote:
I realize to those who are skeptical, that believing in something without proof or evidence of its existence is silly,
Thats because it is
jdstJD wrote:
but believers believe because of what they have experienced in their lives
That's evidence! Explain your evidence and how that points toward the existence of a god
jdstJD wrote:
that they BELIEVE are a direct result of God’s existence.
If I can believe anything I want without evidence and think it to be true then there is nothing to stop two logically impossible scenarios being true which would mean that believing without evidence is not a pathway to determing truth
jdstJD wrote:
I don’t ever try to force anyone to believe what I believe. Nor do I believe that I have to prove to anyone that God exists. I don’t follow religion just to follow a crowd and do rituals that don’t mean anything and where everyone just repeats what someone else tells you to repeat without any personal connection or understanding what they are saying. All I have to do is live my own life based on my beliefs and let everyone else live theirs they way the chose to based on what they individually believe. I recited the Lord’s Prayer above not as a blind recitation of something’s I don’t understand, but as a statement of what I BELIEVE as a Christian. I also take teachings of the Bible as illustrations of the principles God wants people to apply to their lives.
Like how badly you are allowed to beat a slave?
jdstJD wrote:
I don’t take everything in the Bible literally.
How do you know which to take literally and which not?
jdstJD wrote:
I know how to put things in historical context. My faith is just that: faith.
And Brexit means Brexit. I define faith as a tool one uses to define ones beliefs when there is no evidence.


Fred
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ACDC8
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:47 pm

Because it gives many people hope and fulfillment in their lives. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to understand it, no one is asking you to.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:52 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Because it gives many people hope and fulfillment in their lives. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to understand it, no one is asking you to.
A bit like playing the lottery, you get hope that you'll win money and that it will fulfill your needs and I guess you still have to think its truly going to happen at some point even though the odds are ridiculously long (shorter than there being a god though) as people must play for a reason.

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Tugger
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:02 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Because it gives many people hope and fulfillment in their lives. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to understand it, no one is asking you to.
A bit like playing the lottery, you get hope that you'll win money and that it will fulfill your needs and I guess you still have to think its truly going to happen at some point even though the odds are ridiculously long (shorter than there being a god though) as people must play for a reason.

Fred

OK, and....?

Fair enough point that faith is often without proof and that a lottery is no guarantee that you are holding the right ticket. As long as the people I interact with respect me and accept me, I will accept them and respect their path in life. Doesn't mean I couldn't argue ever point of religion with them and take each thing to task, but I have better things to do and believe (there's that word again!) that good people can be all over the spectrum and I don't need to "proof" everything and everyone around me.

Hell I'm a big enough screwup that I am just grateful that these same people accept and respect me!

Tugg
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jdstJD
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:02 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
What has god done and what evidence do you have that makes it more likely to be god than it is to be a coincidence or indeed planned by a human or totally explainable by science?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, in my view, the foundation of Christianity is that you believe “in God the Father almighty; the maker of Heaven and Earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
A mis-translation of the words meaning young girl in arabic text, not in fact a vrigin, but no evidence just assertions so far.
jdstJD wrote:
suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, dead and buried. The third day he arose from the dead.
No evidence that he was infact dead when he was taken down from the cross and the fact that there were several people around at the time who apparently did the same thing shows that Jesus was just a run of the mill kinda guy
jdstJD wrote:
He ascended into Heaven and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
How do you know? do you have any evidence?
jdstJD wrote:
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I am to “believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and Christ everlasting”.
None of this is evidence for even Jesus existing and even if it was and Jesus did exist and did all these acts then that is not proof of god either
jdstJD wrote:
The whole idea of being. Christian is to believe in that without having “evidence” in the purely scientific sense.
Evidence in the scientific sense measn that it can have a demonstrable effect on the world, if it isnt doing that then it isn't anything. If it is having an effect then show it.
jdstJD wrote:
I realize to those who are skeptical, that believing in something without proof or evidence of its existence is silly,
Thats because it is
jdstJD wrote:
but believers believe because of what they have experienced in their lives
That's evidence! Explain your evidence and how that points toward the existence of a god
jdstJD wrote:
that they BELIEVE are a direct result of God’s existence.
If I can believe anything I want without evidence and think it to be true then there is nothing to stop two logically impossible scenarios being true which would mean that believing without evidence is not a pathway to determing truth
jdstJD wrote:
I don’t ever try to force anyone to believe what I believe. Nor do I believe that I have to prove to anyone that God exists. I don’t follow religion just to follow a crowd and do rituals that don’t mean anything and where everyone just repeats what someone else tells you to repeat without any personal connection or understanding what they are saying. All I have to do is live my own life based on my beliefs and let everyone else live theirs they way the chose to based on what they individually believe. I recited the Lord’s Prayer above not as a blind recitation of something’s I don’t understand, but as a statement of what I BELIEVE as a Christian. I also take teachings of the Bible as illustrations of the principles God wants people to apply to their lives.
Like how badly you are allowed to beat a slave?
jdstJD wrote:
I don’t take everything in the Bible literally.
How do you know which to take literally and which not?
jdstJD wrote:
I know how to put things in historical context. My faith is just that: faith.
And Brexit means Brexit. I define faith as a tool one uses to define ones beliefs when there is no evidence.


Fred


Like I said, I don’t have to provide any evidence to you to compel you to believe what I believe. You believe (or don’t believe) whatever you like.
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trpmb6
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:27 pm

For the same reason people still believe socialism works.

(For the record I'm not really religious - I see some of the teachings as being useful for teaching morals - others being contradictory. Haven't been to church in a while. Maybe there's something out there, maybe we're contained in a small orb attached to a cat's collar. Who knows. Actually, there's a fairly decent chance we are in a simulation anyways.)
 
ACDC8
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:31 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Because it gives many people hope and fulfillment in their lives. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to understand it, no one is asking you to.
A bit like playing the lottery, you get hope that you'll win money and that it will fulfill your needs and I guess you still have to think its truly going to happen at some point even though the odds are ridiculously long (shorter than there being a god though) as people must play for a reason.

Fred

And what does it matter to you? It doesn’t.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 8:36 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
For the same reason people still believe socialism works.

It was a nice discussion until this came along.

For what it's worth: there are proven ways in which socialism works and fails. But I guess socialism is like religion: you can't force it upon people, which is what Maduro is doing in Venezuela by refusing to cede power. But I hear some Nordic countries are having success with the model.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Tugger
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 9:10 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
For the same reason people still believe socialism works.

It was a nice discussion until this came along.

For what it's worth: there are proven ways in which socialism works and fails. But I guess socialism is like religion: you can't force it upon people, which is what Maduro is doing in Venezuela by refusing to cede power. But I hear some Nordic countries are having success with the model.

Just to be clear, the "Nordic countries" aren't practicing socialism per the actual definition of "Socialism". They are actually strong capitalist systems, with private property and and private employment. The state does not own production resources nor are production decisions made by the state (Norway has an exception in the oil sector). Nordic counties instead offer a strong "social net" funded by taxes derived from the public and private industry.

Socialism doesn't work, but systems with strong social protections paid for with higher taxes can work.

Apologies for the derailment. You may now return the topic of God.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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ER757
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:18 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
For the same reason people still believe socialism works.

( Actually, there's a fairly decent chance we are in a simulation anyways.)

Did you see that show on Science Channel about the possibility that the entire universe is a hologram? When the show started, I thought, "what the hell is that guy smoking?" but then all these others come on and show that the math works, and in fact it's the only way the math works t explain our observations. SO yeah, I know this doesn't involve God - I apologize for going off topic.
I'll bring it back with another cosmology reference though. Someone upthread mentioned that the opening lines in the book of Genesis sure sound a lot like the Big Bang. And no one that I've ever heard can say why the Big Bang happened or what came before it, so even the Big Bang is faith in something.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:24 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As I've said many, many times, removing religion is not going to bring the world to utopia.

Not immediately, but we would experience a reduction in conflicts. There would be no more Shia vs Sunni, no Middle East problem (Jerusalem would be just another regular city), no radical Islam (though I'm of the opinion that it's kooks using Islam as a shield), and no stuff about how gay marriage and abortion are sins.


Honestly. I don't know. People will find something to fight about. Sure maybe they won't use religion, but they'll use race, or social standing, or any other reason to fight.
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SteelChair
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:34 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As I've said many, many times, removing religion is not going to bring the world to utopia.

Not immediately, but we would experience a reduction in conflicts. There would be no more Shia vs Sunni, no Middle East problem (Jerusalem would be just another regular city), no radical Islam (though I'm of the opinion that it's kooks using Islam as a shield), and no stuff about how gay marriage and abortion are sins.


Honestly. I don't know. People will find something to fight about. Sure maybe they won't use religion, but they'll use race, or social standing, or any other reason to fight.


An economics professor once opined in a class that I was taking that people fight wars over three things: money, land, and religion. Removing religion wont erase the desires for land and money, and in fact, may make them worse.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:36 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Because it gives many people hope and fulfillment in their lives. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to understand it, no one is asking you to.
A bit like playing the lottery, you get hope that you'll win money and that it will fulfill your needs and I guess you still have to think its truly going to happen at some point even though the odds are ridiculously long (shorter than there being a god though) as people must play for a reason.

Fred

And what does it matter to you? It doesn’t.

Thanks for telling me what matters to me.

Actually it does matter to me, I don’t want people wasting the worlds valuable and finite resources on futile persists when they could be spent making the world a better place. I don’t want people to waste their brain power on things that aren’t there when they could be solving problems that are there. I don’t think I should sit idly by while people get away with making faith seem like a good thing and allowing it to stand on an equal footing to facts and knowledge.

There is a low level constant drive for religions to be accepted as meek and mild gentle persuasion of folk to be all good and ‘christian’ in nature whilst all the while it is telling society that evidence isn’t required for truth and generations upon generations grow up thinking that it is a viable way to find the truth when it isn’t.

Fred


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flipdewaf
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 pm

SteelChair wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Not immediately, but we would experience a reduction in conflicts. There would be no more Shia vs Sunni, no Middle East problem (Jerusalem would be just another regular city), no radical Islam (though I'm of the opinion that it's kooks using Islam as a shield), and no stuff about how gay marriage and abortion are sins.


Honestly. I don't know. People will find something to fight about. Sure maybe they won't use religion, but they'll use race, or social standing, or any other reason to fight.


An economics professor once opined in a class that I was taking that people fight wars over three things: money, land, and religion. Removing religion wont erase the desires for land and money, and in fact, may make them worse.

Why might it make it worse?

Fred


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marcelh
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:21 am

Francoflier wrote:
Religious belief is pretty much a defense mechanism that the brain uses to give its own existence meaning versus the harsh reality that we are just a cog in the vast machine that is Life and are just designed to pass our genetic make up along and die... In as such, even not being religious, I can see the point of religious belief as something that helps some people go through life.
But then it has, through the ages and to this day, mostly been used to control and manipulate people by the means of organised religions.

We are eventually just going to have to accept that there is no God-like creature looking after our individual selves or even after the human race at all and and learn to be happy with our relative insignificance. We just are not collectively smart or humble enough to get there yet.

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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:22 am

flipdewaf wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Honestly. I don't know. People will find something to fight about. Sure maybe they won't use religion, but they'll use race, or social standing, or any other reason to fight.


An economics professor once opined in a class that I was taking that people fight wars over three things: money, land, and religion. Removing religion wont erase the desires for land and money, and in fact, may make them worse.

Why might it make it worse?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because many religions call for its disciples not to fall for the trap of greed. Without it, people may feel that "Greed is good". Greed for money. Greed for land.

Case in point the bankers that screwed up the system so bad leading to the Global Financial Crisis 10 years ago.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:51 am

I don't believe science and religion have to be at odds with each other. I had brilliant biology professor and she had no issue with both being part of her life.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Tue May 07, 2019 9:13 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

An economics professor once opined in a class that I was taking that people fight wars over three things: money, land, and religion. Removing religion wont erase the desires for land and money, and in fact, may make them worse.

Why might it make it worse?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because many religions call for its disciples not to fall for the trap of greed. Without it, people may feel that "Greed is good". Greed for money. Greed for land.

Case in point the bankers that screwed up the system so bad leading to the Global Financial Crisis 10 years ago.

1. Why do religions not practice what they preach?
2. If greed is so demonstrably bad then what is to stop us teaching this as a straight fact an not require a collection of people chanting at a celestial dictator to enforce it?

Treat people as if they are respectable beings and not slaves and then act accordingly.

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't believe science and religion have to be at odds with each other. I had brilliant biology professor and she had no issue with both being part of her life.
Whilst religion maintains a position of claiming to seek truth whilst making pronouncements without a due process it will be at odds with science that has demonstrable methods of seeking truth.
'Science' is not a class you took at school, it is a methodology of determining our best understanding of truth through open, repeatable, demonstrable evidence.

Because someone is a science teacher does not automatically make them correct, this is often referred to as an argument from authority i.e. it must be true because of who said it without reference to the argument itself.

Fred
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SteelChair
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Tue May 07, 2019 10:41 am

flipdewaf wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Honestly. I don't know. People will find something to fight about. Sure maybe they won't use religion, but they'll use race, or social standing, or any other reason to fight.


An economics professor once opined in a class that I was taking that people fight wars over three things: money, land, and religion. Removing religion wont erase the desires for land and money, and in fact, may make them worse.

Why might it make it worse?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because many religions preach a moderating message with regard to man's selfish desires.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Why do people still believe in God?

Tue May 07, 2019 11:39 am

SteelChair wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

An economics professor once opined in a class that I was taking that people fight wars over three things: money, land, and religion. Removing religion wont erase the desires for land and money, and in fact, may make them worse.

Why might it make it worse?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because many religions preach a moderating message with regard to man's selfish desires.

What evidence is there to suggest:
A. That we are naturally selfish
B. That said selfishness is a bad thing
C. That the aforementioned 'bad selfishness' can be reduced through preaching
D. That any of that requires congregating for a sky daddy.

Fred
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