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Jetty
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:02 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why are you deliberating confusing illegal aliens with asylum seekers? To make the obvious perfectly clear: illegal aliens have no right to anything you mentioned and thus they don't get any. Asylum seekers are a bit different of course, if they are granted a status, they are allegeable for welfare, but expect to fetch for their own.


I am not confusing anything - IRL it’s the same thing essentially. All illegal aliens essentially become “asylum seekers”, for some time at least. It’s time to remove those pink glasses. Expectedly, nobody will say they are coming somewhere for welfare at someone else’s expense. They will say and present anything they need in order to get that apartment “they give”, or get access to “the giving place” (Germany). As I mentioned - nobody wants to seek asylum in Eastern Europe, even though those are perfectly safe places.

The real solution - clear and strong laws that restrict welfare assistance stuff to citizens only. Period. No other case. End of story. If you are asylum seeker - you have received enough favor by being let into a safe country and provided an ability to work legally. That is generous of the accepting nation, and your turn is to not be a burden and seek ways to support yourself. But - those Africans aren’t coming to Europe to work and pay taxes, obviously.


Ah, the Putin approach. I see. Luckily I live in a compassionate society.

While I find Europe much more compassionate than other countries in general I wonder how you come to that conclusion on this issue and with your stance. You know that your democratically elected government tried every legal avenue to block NGO ships registered under it’s flag from rescuing migrants which is fully supported by a majority of the society you live in? And this is not just in The Netherlands, but a united European effort that got rid of dozens of NGO boats working in the Mediterranean and the EU’s own rescue mission while hundreds of migrants drown or are locked up in Libyan detention camps.

Then there is the US not even building a wall. Comparing these two Europe is by far the less compassionate towards migrants and more right wing. This reflects popular opinion in the EU where most citizens don’t want any more immigration of Muslims.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:48 am

Because a lot of NGO ships were not rescuing migrants, they went just outside Libya waters and wait for them. What they were doing was no rescuing but encouraging people to go 12 miles out and wait.

If theses NGO were supporting theses migrants in Europe for their whole life it could be an other story, but make them come in the EU and then tell the governments we have done our hero job, now deal with them for the rest of their life is just stupid.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1745
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:27 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
I think it very unlikely people would claim asylum for welfare payments. Certainly not in the UK. they get paid a pittance. Some claim to frustrate deportation or if all avenues to remain in the UK have failed. Roughly half have no legitimate claim and are clearly economic migrants. The proportion of chancers was a lot higher back in the day.


Then why else would they go somewhere nowadays? If they have in-demand occupation, they can just come on a work visa, no need in any asylums. If they don't - yes, cash allowance isn't big, but they can get free housing, separate food allowance, cash, access to health system and in addition to that - work for cash in migrant communities in the best case. In any other case - get involved in drug trade.

Yes, some get deported. But these deportation proceedings can go on for years, and all this time these migrants cost government money, until they manage to get their paperwork some other way (i.e. fake marriage). I'd say - be prepared that vast majority of those migrants will stay there forever.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1745
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:31 am

Jetty wrote:
While I find Europe much more compassionate than other countries in general


The most compassionate and liberal of Europeans just can't get a grasp of this world in 21st century, and just can't get rid of those pink glasses. Though - many in Europe, and many in European governments did get rid of them - hence these refusals for NGO ships to come in.
 
User avatar
Loew
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As long as you continue to write stuff designed to divide western populations, just like the Internet Research Agency in St. Petersburg, I continue to see Putin in your scripts.


I am not dividing your population Dutchy. It is divided already, and it has nothing to do with Putin, Russia, me, that “Internet Research Agency”. The two (or how many are there) parts of your society need to start listening to one another’s opinions. But you are just refusing to, and, unfortunately, liberals (whose viewpoints you share) firmly believe that there are two opinions - the right one (theirs) and that of some “enemy of free people” (e.g. Putin, etc.). Even though as elections show, my opinion is similar to that of a significant share of Europeans. For Europeans (and their leadership), listening to your fellow citizens - is the only way to overcome that division. The key to it is inside your society, not anywhere outside of it.


Exactly. Putin, if anything, is actually merging population. In Ukraine for example, russians are finally home. We really have to look and listen Anrec80, exactly as you write. There is no such thing as Internet research agency, it´s very existence is a lie spread by unelected bureucrats all around the world, especially in Brussels. Luckily, in todays world there are true messiahs, liberators who have devoted their own life promoting peace, prosperity and freedom. These giants such as Vladimir Putin, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Geert "Blondie" Wilders or honest nad humble Matteo Salvini and his friend Viktor Orbán. These people are truly on the front of global peace and freedom. Maybe the Netherlands could form some sot of a commission filled with these people to help the Netherlands overcome its population division.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:01 pm

Loew wrote:
Exactly. Putin, if anything, is actually merging population. In Ukraine for example, russians are finally home. We really have to look and listen Anrec80, exactly as you write. There is no such thing as Internet research agency, it´s very existence is a lie spread by unelected bureucrats all around the world, especially in Brussels. Luckily, in todays world there are true messiahs, liberators who have devoted their own life promoting peace, prosperity and freedom. These giants such as Vladimir Putin, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Geert "Blondie" Wilders or honest nad humble Matteo Salvini and his friend Viktor Orbán. These people are truly on the front of global peace and freedom. Maybe the Netherlands could form some sot of a commission filled with these people to help the Netherlands overcome its population division.


Hahahahahhaa. Levels of sarcasm have reached a new level.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1745
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:42 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Loew wrote:
Exactly. Putin, if anything, is actually merging population. In Ukraine for example, russians are finally home. We really have to look and listen Anrec80, exactly as you write. There is no such thing as Internet research agency, it´s very existence is a lie spread by unelected bureucrats all around the world, especially in Brussels. Luckily, in todays world there are true messiahs, liberators who have devoted their own life promoting peace, prosperity and freedom. These giants such as Vladimir Putin, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Geert "Blondie" Wilders or honest nad humble Matteo Salvini and his friend Viktor Orbán. These people are truly on the front of global peace and freedom. Maybe the Netherlands could form some sot of a commission filled with these people to help the Netherlands overcome its population division.


Hahahahahhaa. Levels of sarcasm have reached a new level.


So wait a min - this was sarcasm? The thing is - what Loew wrote is actually rather close to reality...
 
chimborazo
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:37 pm

It’s really really simple if the EU wants to survive. Keep freedom of movement of goods and stop the automatic freedom of movement of people. Like it was originally set up for all those unvoted for years ago. A trading block. I will get shouted down with “but you can’t have one without the other, its against the rules!” and all the usual nonsense. Well... exactly. Change the rules.
Just bring in a simple permit system for workers so countries can control who settles there. That’s all that the many, many people who I know who want to leave the EU (and remainers who admit they voted that way because they believed the calamitous prophecies of the politicians) want. Even mainland European citizens I have working for me want to stop uncontrolled immigration to the UK.
 
User avatar
Loew
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:20 pm

chimborazo wrote:
It’s really really simple if the EU wants to survive. Keep freedom of movement of goods and stop the automatic freedom of movement of people. Like it was originally set up for all those unvoted for years ago. A trading block. I will get shouted down with “but you can’t have one without the other, its against the rules!” and all the usual nonsense. Well... exactly. Change the rules.
Just bring in a simple permit system for workers so countries can control who settles there. That’s all that the many, many people who I know who want to leave the EU (and remainers who admit they voted that way because they believed the calamitous prophecies of the politicians) want. Even mainland European citizens I have working for me want to stop uncontrolled immigration to the UK.


Sure, let's replace a hassle free system with a permit system, which by the way would require a considerable amount of new officers and thus expenses, creating paperwork for everyone, because of what? Which problem is getting solved by this exactly? Especially for the UK which is not in the Schengen area anyway.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8841
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:11 pm

chimborazo wrote:
It’s really really simple if the EU wants to survive. Keep freedom of movement of goods and stop the automatic freedom of movement of people. Like it was originally set up for all those unvoted for years ago. A trading block. I will get shouted down with “but you can’t have one without the other, its against the rules!” and all the usual nonsense. Well... exactly. Change the rules.
Just bring in a simple permit system for workers so countries can control who settles there. That’s all that the many, many people who I know who want to leave the EU (and remainers who admit they voted that way because they believed the calamitous prophecies of the politicians) want. Even mainland European citizens I have working for me want to stop uncontrolled immigration to the UK.


Two things drive this:
1. grow of the economy in western Europe
2. the difference in wealth between eastern and western Europe

Now to solve this: make the difference between eastern and western Europe less, invest in Eastern Europe, much more than now.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jetty
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:24 am

Olddog wrote:
Because a lot of NGO ships were not rescuing migrants, they went just outside Libya waters and wait for them. What they were doing was no rescuing but encouraging people to go 12 miles out and wait.

If theses NGO were supporting theses migrants in Europe for their whole life it could be an other story, but make them come in the EU and then tell the governments we have done our hero job, now deal with them for the rest of their life is just stupid.

Oh, I fully agree with that. And that native Europeans have a right to protect themselves against Islamic values regardless of lives lost. I was just pointing out that Dutchie was misrepresenting the society he lives in, because it is much less compassionate towards migrants as he claims it to be.
 
olle
Posts: 917
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: EU elections

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:01 am

The biggest looser of decreasing the right of movement will be service providors ike for example uk financial sector.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8841
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:52 am

Jetty wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Because a lot of NGO ships were not rescuing migrants, they went just outside Libya waters and wait for them. What they were doing was no rescuing but encouraging people to go 12 miles out and wait.

If theses NGO were supporting theses migrants in Europe for their whole life it could be an other story, but make them come in the EU and then tell the governments we have done our hero job, now deal with them for the rest of their life is just stupid.

Oh, I fully agree with that. And that native Europeans have a right to protect themselves against Islamic values regardless of lives lost. I was just pointing out that Dutchie was misrepresenting the society he lives in, because it is much less compassionate towards migrants as he claims it to be.


You have to distinguish between migrants and refugees. Most of the people whom want to cross the Mediterranean are actually migrants with little hope of staying in the EU legally. They should not come and they should be brought back to their home state as soon as possible. There is little compassionate towards them. Refugees are in a totally different ballpark. We are bound by treaties to help them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:01 pm

anrec80 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I think it very unlikely people would claim asylum for welfare payments. Certainly not in the UK. they get paid a pittance. Some claim to frustrate deportation or if all avenues to remain in the UK have failed. Roughly half have no legitimate claim and are clearly economic migrants. The proportion of chancers was a lot higher back in the day.


Then why else would they go somewhere nowadays? If they have in-demand occupation, they can just come on a work visa, no need in any asylums. If they don't - yes, cash allowance isn't big, but they can get free housing, separate food allowance, cash, access to health system and in addition to that - work for cash in migrant communities in the best case. In any other case - get involved in drug trade.

Yes, some get deported. But these deportation proceedings can go on for years, and all this time these migrants cost government money, until they manage to get their paperwork some other way (i.e. fake marriage). I'd say - be prepared that vast majority of those migrants will stay there forever.



Work visas are very hard to get. Most illegal migrants come to the UK to work illegally.
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