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User avatar
Loew
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 11:07 am

Here are some news from the east, more specificially Slovakia: (not to be confused with Slovenia ;) )

According to the only exit poll available, several pro-EU parties made it to the EU parliament, together they should hold 9 seats out of 13 (14 after Brexit). Apparently hard eurosceptics / rusophiles won 2 seats, soft eurosceptics 1 + 1 seats (second seat will be assigned after Brexit), and the last seat belongs to party which considers itself to be pro-EU, yet it is a member of the ECR group, which is eurosceptic.

Slovakia will therefore most probably have 2 MEPs in the EPP group, 3 MEPs in the S&D group, 4 MEPs in ALDE group, 2+1 MEPs in the ECR group and 2 MEPs without any affiliation.

Source: (in English) https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22129780/201 ... vakia.html
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6029
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 11:07 am

Dutchy wrote:
Vacuum cleaners are part of the common market, so you are not in favor of the common market.


There was no common market pre-2014 when the EU decided the people are too dumb to decide for themselves what kind of vacuum cleaner they need and produced yet another ridiculous piece of legislation? The question is about principles: Do we really need to legislate every single aspect of human life?

Dutchy wrote:
Why would the EU project be right or left of the political spectrum?


Because most of the proposals from the "more EUrope or else we will fight one another in the trenches of Flanders tomorrow" crowd are top-down, collectivist, interventionist and statist... thus leftist in its essence: even more regulation, elimination of competition, more taxes, even more sovereignty surrendered to the EU, more bureaucracy with agencies' sinister names soundling like they have been borrowed from Orwell's 1984.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11365
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 11:36 am

The idea of the single market is that there is one set of rules for everyone, allowing EU (and non EU) companies to compete for a large market on the same basis. That's not a left wing idea, it's a free market capitalism idea, with the idea being that more competition is better.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
Posts: 8423
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 12:42 pm

Which single market are you talking about, the world, EU, all of Europe with Africa?
Free competition within the EU but you exclude the rest of the world, is that capitalism within the EU or protectionism of the EU from the rest of the world?

On the election front I agree with those who in principle say the exit polls should be disallowed as it will influence the polling done later.
Funny thing is the election monitors from EU countries when monitoring elections in non-EU countries see where that principle can and does affects the results, does make you say hmmm...
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6138
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 1:57 pm

The polls have shifted slightly, with the most recent looking like this
Image

Venstre (Liberals) goes up to 3, so a gain of 1 (previous poll had them at 4), and the Conservatives regain their MEP (previous poll had them at 0)
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11365
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Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 2:30 pm

par13del wrote:
Which single market are you talking about, the world, EU, all of Europe with Africa?
Free competition within the EU but you exclude the rest of the world, is that capitalism within the EU or protectionism of the EU from the rest of the world?

On the election front I agree with those who in principle say the exit polls should be disallowed as it will influence the polling done later.
Funny thing is the election monitors from EU countries when monitoring elections in non-EU countries see where that principle can and does affects the results, does make you say hmmm...


Well that's part of the debate. The single market is clearly for EU countries only (and a few countries that are EU countries without admitting it). However the same principles have also been applied to the rest of the world, with the EU being very open to global free trade. That hasn't proven that good an idea, and is causing a lot of problems for a lot of people, so things might change. The internal market, on the other hand, is safe, unless the EU just blows up or expels countries.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
KLDC10
Posts: 1320
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 4:30 pm

The exit polls from Germany are horrendous. Not in terms of who has profited this election, but in terms of how fractured the political landscape has become. If this trend holds, building any kind of workable or stable coalition after the next Federal Election will be difficult.

https://wahl.tagesschau.de/wahlen/2019- ... ndex.shtml
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6029
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 5:15 pm

Aesma wrote:
The internal market, on the other hand, is safe, unless the EU just blows up or expels countries.

EU's internal market as a concept is under frontal attack from those who pretend to be the "pro-EU" yet their true illiberal agenda is bare naked protectionism, dirigism and centralism.
You can't expel countries from the EU, because that would mean getting rid of 2/3 of the member states currently in breach of Maastricht rules on indebtdness.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 5:28 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The internal market, on the other hand, is safe, unless the EU just blows up or expels countries.

EU's internal market as a concept is under frontal attack from those who pretend to be the "pro-EU" yet their true illiberal agenda is bare naked protectionism, dirigism and centralism.
You can't expel countries from the EU, because that would mean getting rid of 2/3 of the member states currently in breach of Maastricht rules on indebtdness.


I truly not understand what you are talking about? Could you give us some examples where the "frontal attack" is most visual?

Indeed you can't expel countries from the EU, but you can clip their wings, but is indeed hard. Countries have a lot of autonomy.

Or perhaps you mean something like this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6029
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 5:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The internal market, on the other hand, is safe, unless the EU just blows up or expels countries.

EU's internal market as a concept is under frontal attack from those who pretend to be the "pro-EU" yet their true illiberal agenda is bare naked protectionism, dirigism and centralism.
You can't expel countries from the EU, because that would mean getting rid of 2/3 of the member states currently in breach of Maastricht rules on indebtdness.


I truly not understand what you are talking about? Could you give us some examples where the "frontal attack" is most visual?


Every time Macron opens his mouth. Pay really close attention to Ms. Vestager, whose principled stance on Alstom-Siemens, will most likely cost her the top job as Macron is now pushing his minion Barnier.
Last edited by L410Turbolet on Sun May 26, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6138
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 5:56 pm

5 minutes away from the Danish polls closing, and it looks like we're set to smash the Danish turnout record, with one polling institute predicting a final turnout of 66,5%. Not bad, considering it's a somewhat grey and miserable sunday, and the fact we're also heading for the polls in 10 days for the General Election (although a LOT of voters cast a postal vote, as they could vote in both elections at the same time).

Edit: And the Exit Poll for the Danish European elections:
Danish People's Party (Right-wing populist): 1 MEP (down from 4)
Social Democratic Party: 4 (up from 3) - including the 14th Danish MEP, who will be seated when UK leaves
Venstre (Liberals): 3 (up from 2)
Socialist People's Party: 2 (up from 1)
Conservatives: 1 (no change)
People's Movement against the EU: 0 (down from 1)
Radikale Venstre (Social Liberals): 2 (up from 1)
Enhedslisten (ex-Communists & Greens): 1 (new party, used to be part of the cross-party People's Movement against the EU).
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11365
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Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 6:44 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
EU's internal market as a concept is under frontal attack from those who pretend to be the "pro-EU" yet their true illiberal agenda is bare naked protectionism, dirigism and centralism.
You can't expel countries from the EU, because that would mean getting rid of 2/3 of the member states currently in breach of Maastricht rules on indebtdness.


I truly not understand what you are talking about? Could you give us some examples where the "frontal attack" is most visual?


Every time Macron opens his mouth. Pay really close attention to Ms. Vestager, whose principled stance on Alstom-Siemens, will most likely cost her the top job as Macron is now pushing his minion Barnier.


I have heard her argument that the companies joining together would be bad for internal EU competition. I didn't hear her proposing to protect these companies from Chinese competition. So basically she's fine with both EU companies dying so that we can buy cheaper chinese trains.

If you have a link to an economist agreeing with her decision I'd like to see it.

I wonder how she would have viewed the formation of Airbus, by the way, had she been in charge at the time.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
Posts: 1734
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 7:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You are putting Putin's voice forward here. So when I see you posting here, I see the voice of Putin and that is 100% true of your post, no post of yours are against Russian interest, none. This one included.


So when you read my posts, you hear voice of Putin? You begin to worry me. Are you sure you do not need any help?

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the common values of the EU, which countries subscribe to when they become a member, voluntarily. If you subscribe to something, isn't it more than logical that the club you wanted to joins, you wanted to be a member of, you observe the values and rules of this club? If you disagree with them, fine, two options: get out or change them, both are fine methods. Not observing them is not an option.


Depends how you view the values. EU was initially thought as a fair and equal union of free allied nations, with freedom of movement and commerce. Instead many people see what they got is a huge bureaucratic monster, way too influential, who pushed down too many directives on what not to do, what to do, how to do it, etc. Who tells everyone whether their elected leadership is good or bad, their courts are right or not, not showing any respect to individual nation’s choices whatsoever. The decisions are being made by a few who are appointed and not elected. The rules simply keep multiplying. Obviously there is a limit to that.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW how to properly do gay parades? Really, could you please show us where the EU dictates that? (not expecting an answer, because you never answer the difficult questions)


Poland? https://euobserver.com/social/23995
 
anrec80
Posts: 1734
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 7:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You are putting Putin's voice forward here. So when I see you posting here, I see the voice of Putin and that is 100% true of your post, no post of yours are against Russian interest, none. This one included.


Once we are talking my agreement with Putin - here is one of the things I do not agree with. What Russia is still doing in this European Council, together with that ECHR? I don’t see any reason to stick to it whatsoever. After all discrimination, I think it’s time to get out of it once and forever. And leave that remnant of history where it belongs - in the history.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1734
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 7:56 pm

Aesma wrote:
I have heard her argument that the companies joining together would be bad for internal EU competition. I didn't hear her proposing to protect these companies from Chinese competition. So basically she's fine with both EU companies dying so that we can buy cheaper chinese trains.


In this case - your European companies need to get more efficient. If they are overburdened with labor regulations, pensions, taxes - it’s time to revise all that, and see if they really are in line with reality. They are competing not with one another, but globally.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6138
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 9:27 pm

Preliminary results from the Danish elections:
Danish People's Party (Right-wing populist): 1 MEP (down from 4)
Social Democratic Party: 3 (no change)
Venstre (Liberals): 4 (up from 2)
Socialist People's Party: 2 (up from 1)
Conservatives: 1 (no change)
People's Movement against the EU: 0 (down from 1)
Radikale Venstre (Social Liberals): 2 (up from 1)
Enhedslisten (ex-Communists & Greens): 1 (new party, used to be part of the cross-party People's Movement against the EU).

After 84% of the votes are counted. A massive result for Venstre, who will almost certainly use it to boost their somewhat sagging campaign for the upcoming general elections.
 
Jalap
Posts: 473
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 10:17 pm

Belgian seats, a bit for everybody:

Far left: 1 (+1)
Socialist: 3 (-1)
Green: 3 (+1)
Social democrat: 4 (=)
Liberal: 4 (-2)
Right conservative: 3 (-1)
Far right: 3 (+2)

There are no outspoken Eurosceptic parties in Belgium. The far right seats are all Flemish nationalists, anti-migration votes. What I named "right conservative" also are flemish nationalists, anti-migration.

Also: as for Farage's party in the UK: since they don't want to be in Europe, I expect that they'll happily donate their representative's incomes to charities.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 648
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Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 10:59 pm

Very pleasing results coming out of the UK. Brexit Party looking for promising.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14049
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Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 11:08 pm

The 'centrist' parties seem to be the main losers of seats, with 'right' and 'left' parties gaining. Several factors since the last EU elections are likely in play. Those most affected by Austerity and younger persons were motivated to support more leftist parties, rightist parties gaining from anti-migrant, anti-regulation and anti-tax voters.
Still a plurality are supporting the 'centrist' parties, and likely the status quo with some minor adjustments will happen. There will be possible shifts to the right or more polarized politics in many EU countries, but hopefully many of the EU's trade and movement structures will continue, but some sovereignty issues from money to religious and human rights and in particular migration/immigration will have to dealt with or the EU will lose more members.
 
Jalap
Posts: 473
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 11:13 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Very pleasing results coming out of the UK. Brexit Party looking for promising.

It's pretty nihilistic to vote Prexit party.
Either there'll be a hard brexit, and then those representatives will be totally useless.
Or it'll be a soft brexit (or even no brexit) and those representatives will be totally useless in representing the UK's interests.
They're wasted votes and as a European it angers me that my tax money will be used to pay for their retributions.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 11:48 pm

Jalap wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Very pleasing results coming out of the UK. Brexit Party looking for promising.

It's pretty nihilistic to vote Prexit party.
Either there'll be a hard brexit, and then those representatives will be totally useless.
Or it'll be a soft brexit (or even no brexit) and those representatives will be totally useless in representing the UK's interests.
They're wasted votes and as a European it angers me that my tax money will be used to pay for their retributions.


It is reflective of how many of us feel.

I just want out of the EU.

The referendum promised that and did not deliver.

The Conservatives promised that and did not deliver.

Where else are people meant to turn when they are so opposed to the EU? They are far from wasted votes.

You resent paying their salaries? That is democracy for you.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Sun May 26, 2019 11:51 pm

How the UK’s MEP’s are looking so far.

BXT 28
LIB. 15
LAB 10
GRE 7
CON 3
PLC 1
 
A101
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 12:04 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
How the UK’s MEP’s are looking so far.

BXT 28
LIB. 15
LAB 10
GRE 7
CON 3
PLC 1


Looking very promising, but I’ll wait till the final wash up. :bouncy:
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 12:16 am

A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
How the UK’s MEP’s are looking so far.

BXT 28
LIB. 15
LAB 10
GRE 7
CON 3
PLC 1


Looking very promising, but I’ll wait till the final wash up. :bouncy:


We are looking at around 60% for the leave parties v 40% remain.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 7:02 am

The extremes won, the center lost. So something needs to be done although it isn't quite clear what.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1734
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 7:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
The extremes won, the center lost. So something needs to be done although it isn't quite clear what.


It's not so hard. To begin with - less ideology, and learn to genuinely listen and understand your people - especially those with beliefs contrary to yours. What they are concerned about? What worries them? Are they feeling insecure somehow? If something does not work - do not be afraid to reform it. The center has shown too much talking (and choir singing) and too little doing, leaving demand for someone who listens and ready to accomplish at least some things (or even pretends to be). This demand was picked up by the "extremes" you are talking about.
 
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sebolino
Posts: 3523
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 7:55 am

French vote for a Nazi-onalist party, Britons for a clown whose program is "out", Italians for Benito Mussalvini ... All good in Europe.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1017
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 8:02 am

Results for France:

Rassemblement national 23,3% means 23 MEP one less than in 2014
La République en marche 22,4% means 21 MEP now, 23 when Brexit is done :)
Europe Écologie Les Verts 13,5% 12 Mep + 1
Les Républicains 8,5% 8 Mep own from 20
La France insoumise 6,3%
Parti socialiste 6,2%

Overall good results as it is the only elections done that way in France. All other are on a two rounds format. If results were the same next presidential elections Macron shoud easily win again, but two years is an eternity for politics :)
Last edited by Olddog on Mon May 27, 2019 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 9:35 am

Aesma wrote:
The idea of the single market is that there is one set of rules for everyone, allowing EU (and non EU) companies to compete for a large market on the same basis. That's not a left wing idea, it's a free market capitalism idea, with the idea being that more competition is better.


Of course the EU is not born out of a free market idea, but is a fundamentally protectionist endeavour. It is fascinating to see that people manage to bend their logic to fit the EU in such large numbers. The overarching economic principle and raison d'être of the EU is to shield the member countries against external market participants for certain products, especially with regards to agriculture and specific key heavy industries (such as cars). An interesting side effect of this is that some important agricultural products are now so cheap to produce in the EU (due to said shielding, but also direct subsidies) that they are exported in huge amounts to even countries in Africa, rendering the local farmers uncompetitive and exacerbating the food crisis in Africa. This leads droves of desperate Africans to the conclusion that there is no future for them in Africa and they make a long and dangerous trek to Europe, where they then proceed to overwhelm the EU's nonexistent border protection. Because most of them don't have any vocational training, they end up as cheap labor on farms and plantations, helping to keep down the same prices that drove them to Europe in the first place, perpetualizing the problem.

That's the EU for you. A fundamentally flawed construct that doesn't work. Time to get rid of it.

Olddog wrote:
Results for France:

Rassemblement national 23,3% means 23 MEP one less than in 2014
La République en marche 22,4% means 21 MEP now, 23 when Brexit is done :)
Europe Écologie Les Verts 13,5% 12 Mep + 1
Les Républicains 8,5% 8 Mep own from 20
La France insoumise 6,3%
Parti socialiste 6,2%

Overall good results as it is the only elections done that way in France. All other are on a two rounds format. If results were the same next presidential elections Macron shoud easily win again, but two years is an eternity for politics :)


I am surprised that Macron's party is so strong and that the Socialists and the Republicans weren't able to profit of his constant failing as President. The French people must really be quite sick of their establishment. Macron winning reelection would be terrible for France, but I guess the alternatives aren't particularly rosy either.

Dutchy wrote:

The UK doesn't seem to want to deal with us, we tried and tried and tried, the Brexitremist won, so let them handle things from now on.


The only thing the EU tried and tried and tried was negotiating in bad faith. Barnier went into the negotiations with tremendous conceit and it will come back to haunt the EU.

Dutchy wrote:
The extremes won, the center lost. So something needs to be done although it isn't quite clear what.


Ceasing to be dysfunctional would be a good start for the EU.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 9:46 am

aviationaware wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The idea of the single market is that there is one set of rules for everyone, allowing EU (and non EU) companies to compete for a large market on the same basis. That's not a left wing idea, it's a free market capitalism idea, with the idea being that more competition is better.


Of course the EU is not born out of a free market idea, but is a fundamentally protectionist endeavour. It is fascinating to see that people manage to bend their logic to fit the EU in such large numbers. The overarching economic principle and raison d'être of the EU is to shield the member countries against external market participants for certain products, especially with regards to agriculture and specific key heavy industries (such as cars). An interesting side effect of this is that some important agricultural products are now so cheap to produce in the EU (due to said shielding, but also direct subsidies) that they are exported in huge amounts to even countries in Africa, rendering the local farmers uncompetitive and exacerbating the food crisis in Africa. This leads droves of desperate Africans to the conclusion that there is no future for them in Africa and they make a long and dangerous trek to Europe, where they then proceed to overwhelm the EU's nonexistent border protection. Because most of them don't have any vocational training, they end up as cheap labor on farms and plantations, helping to keep down the same prices that drove them to Europe in the first place, perpetualizing the problem.

That's the EU for you. A fundamentally flawed construct that doesn't work. Time to get rid of it.


All you have shown us, you fundamentally don't understand the EU and its inner workings and you don't understand whom comes to the EU, illegally.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 9:56 am

Disprove me. Logic is on my side.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 10:15 am

You made a statement, you prove it, but will give you a tip. It isn't the poorest of the poor whom leave Africa for uncertain and illegal existence in Europe. Actually, it's the middle class, whom has some money. It takes quite a lot of money to move illegally to the EU. So the link you propose isn't there. So much for your logic.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 648
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:01 am

The Brexit Party on 29 seats are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:03 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
The Brexit Party on 29 seats are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.


and the most useless.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 167
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW how to properly do gay parades? Really, could you please show us where the EU dictates that? (not expecting an answer, because you never answer the difficult questions)


Poland? https://euobserver.com/social/23995


Not only it doesn't support your original claim but it also proves your lack of knowledge about EU : the European Court of Human Rights is NOT an EU institution.

Olddog wrote:
Results for France:

Rassemblement national 23,3% means 23 MEP one less than in 2014
La République en marche 22,4% means 21 MEP now, 23 when Brexit is done :)
Europe Écologie Les Verts 13,5% 12 Mep + 1
Les Républicains 8,5% 8 Mep own from 20
La France insoumise 6,3%
Parti socialiste 6,2%

Overall good results as it is the only elections done that way in France. All other are on a two rounds format. If results were the same next presidential elections Macron shoud easily win again, but two years is an eternity for politics :)


Parti Socialiste was already in a very bad shape it's no surprise to see them so low, but for Les Républicains it's a massive blow their leader Laurent Bullshit Wauquiez will probably be ejected soon.
Big surprise is the 3rd place of Europe Ecologie Les Verts, taking the leadership of the left.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
marcelh
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:14 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The Brexit Party on 29 seats are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.


and the most useless.

And more important - they will be history before the end of this year. At least it is becoming clear the UK wants a hard Brexit.
 
marcelh
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:17 am

aviationaware wrote:
Disprove me. Logic is on my side.

No, your bias is in your side
 
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sebolino
Posts: 3523
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:20 am

marcelh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The Brexit Party on 29 seats are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.


and the most useless.

And more important - they will be history before the end of this year. At least it is becoming clear the UK wants a hard Brexit.



More fun to come ;-)
I wonder if a hard-brexiter will dare taking the responsibility for the mess of a hard brexit.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:23 am

sebolino wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

and the most useless.

And more important - they will be history before the end of this year. At least it is becoming clear the UK wants a hard Brexit.



More fun to come ;-)
I wonder if a hard-brexiter will dare taking the responsibility for the mess of a hard brexit.


Looks like the ego of Johnson and/or Raab got the better of them. They have to deliver a hard Brexit, even though the Parliament is against it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The Brexit Party on 29 seats are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.


and the most useless.


Give it a rest.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8823
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:31 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The Brexit Party on 29 seats are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.


and the most useless.


Give it a rest.


Hit a nerve?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:32 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
The Brexit Party on 29 seats are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.


and the most useless.


Give it a rest.

The EU supporters are incredibly fearful of Brexit. I can’t blame them.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:37 am

Magog wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

and the most useless.


Give it a rest.

The EU supporters are incredibly fearful of Brexit. I can’t blame them.


True, we care about the British.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

and the most useless.


Give it a rest.


Hit a nerve?


Not at all.

Unlike many remoaners, I have not had a tantrum this morning, given the party they despise the most, is the most popular in the UK.
 
JJJ
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:53 am

aviationaware wrote:

Of course the EU is not born out of a free market idea, but is a fundamentally protectionist endeavour.


For the left, the EU is a big business cartel, for the right the EU is a giant communist organisation. For free market advocates it's a giant protectionist racket, for labour unions it's a thinly veiled attempt to substitute European-made products for Asian and developing countries produced stuff.

There's a whiff of truth on each one, but they can't all be right at the same time.
 
aviationaware
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 11:59 am

JJJ wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Of course the EU is not born out of a free market idea, but is a fundamentally protectionist endeavour.


For the left, the EU is a big business cartel, for the right the EU is a giant communist organisation. For free market advocates it's a giant protectionist racket, for labour unions it's a thinly veiled attempt to substitute European-made products for Asian and developing countries produced stuff.

There's a whiff of truth on each one, but they can't all be right at the same time.


Well the EU is certainly a masterpiece in the neoliberal con. It turned the leftists into fervent supporters of this corporate welfare institution. I have said that for years now. Its economic implications are too complicated for most people to understand, even very smart people with little economic knowledge or interest (many intellectuals don't have a shred of economic sense) fall for this con, ushered there by the media folks who also don't understand it but are very good at maligning people who are against it with vicious name-calling.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 12:12 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
A101 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
How the UK’s MEP’s are looking so far.

BXT 28
LIB. 15
LAB 10
GRE 7
CON 3
PLC 1


Looking very promising, but I’ll wait till the final wash up. :bouncy:


We are looking at around 60% for the leave parties v 40% remain.


No you're not. If you are intepreting the results as a vote on whether to leave or stay, then you must include the SNP + NI as the UK as a whole voted to stay or leave not England. In the context or comparing remainers vs brexiteers you have to use the votes of the parties that represents those views together, not just one party.

MEPs voted in:

Remain:

LIB 16
GRE 7
SNP 3
PC 1

= 27

If you then include Labour (like it or not, they will now back a peoples vote and vast majority of Labour MPs are remainers)

=38

Leave:

BXT = 29

CON = 4 (assuming all are leave, but they aren't)

= 33


So remainers win more seats.


If you do it percentages

LIB 20.3%
GRE 12.1%
SNP 3.6%
PC 1%

= 37 %

Add LAB (14.1%)

= 51.1%



BXT = 31.6%

CON = 9.1%

= 40.7%


If you pull out LAB from remain then you must pull out CON from leave.

It's not black and white. One thing is for certain, the only thing that happened is that BXT party took over UKIPs share of the vote and a few more % on top. There is still no mandate at all for a hard brexit. These figures still show a complete split in the vote, and therefore the only democratic thing to do, is to put it to a second vote.
Last edited by Reinhardt on Mon May 27, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 12:13 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The idea of the single market is that there is one set of rules for everyone, allowing EU (and non EU) companies to compete for a large market on the same basis. That's not a left wing idea, it's a free market capitalism idea, with the idea being that more competition is better.


Of course the EU is not born out of a free market idea, but is a fundamentally protectionist endeavour. It is fascinating to see that people manage to bend their logic to fit the EU in such large numbers. The overarching economic principle and raison d'être of the EU is to shield the member countries against external market participants for certain products, especially with regards to agriculture and specific key heavy industries (such as cars). An interesting side effect of this is that some important agricultural products are now so cheap to produce in the EU (due to said shielding, but also direct subsidies) that they are exported in huge amounts to even countries in Africa, rendering the local farmers uncompetitive and exacerbating the food crisis in Africa. This leads droves of desperate Africans to the conclusion that there is no future for them in Africa and they make a long and dangerous trek to Europe, where they then proceed to overwhelm the EU's nonexistent border protection. Because most of them don't have any vocational training, they end up as cheap labor on farms and plantations, helping to keep down the same prices that drove them to Europe in the first place, perpetualizing the problem.

That's the EU for you. A fundamentally flawed construct that doesn't work. Time to get rid of it.


The default position of a country is to be protectionist. So 28 countries allowing the 27 others free and unlimited access to their market is very unusual, in fact unheard of. Even on its external borders the EU is more open than most countries, agriculture is a special case and you know it. Plenty other countries protect their agriculture, and some end up dumping on Africa, the US for example. I agree that shouldn't happen, some African countries are also now putting up barriers against that.

Food is the most vital of needs, so it makes perfect sense to want to protect it. It's countries that let others make most of their food that I don't understand (when they have a choice, like the UK, I'm not talking about African countries).

aviationaware wrote:
I am surprised that Macron's party is so strong and that the Socialists and the Republicans weren't able to profit of his constant failing as President. The French people must really be quite sick of their establishment. Macron winning reelection would be terrible for France, but I guess the alternatives aren't particularly rosy either


The socialists and republicans were in power before Macron, and what have they done for the country ? Nothing anybody can remember. Macron is changing things. Plenty of people aren't happy about that, even though they wanted change, and still want change. Change that affects all other French people except them.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
aviationaware
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Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 12:38 pm

Aesma wrote:

The default position of a country is to be protectionist.


I'm not necessarily opposed to protectionism. But at least own up to it, man. The EU is pretending to be the biggest free trader in the world when that's just not true.

Aesma wrote:
So 28 countries allowing the 27 others free and unlimited access to their market is very unusual, in fact unheard of.


America manages that with 50 participants. That's more than 28.



Aesma wrote:
Even on its external borders the EU is more open than most countries


I strongly dispute that. Define most countries. Certainly not more open than it's peers. Being more open than China is not an artistic feat, although being more open than China might be considered dangerous and stupid at this time.

Aesma wrote:
Food is the most vital of needs, so it makes perfect sense to want to protect it.


The subsidized EU food market is the reason why EU consumers pay significantly more for food than American consumers. You might claim now that EU food has a higher quality, but there is no evidence for that at all. It's only a few commodity products that are ass cheap in Europe, and those are incidentally also the ones that ruin Africa.

Aesma wrote:
The socialists and republicans were in power before Macron, and what have they done for the country ? Nothing anybody can remember. Macron is changing things. Plenty of people aren't happy about that, even though they wanted change, and still want change. Change that affects all other French people except them.


Well the notion that Macron is changing anything for the better in France is highly questionable. His policies have mostly failed miserably by any objective measure. The country is in shambles. All French people I know who supported him are either fervently against him now or at least no longer outwardly supporting him because they are deeply disappointed in him. That's purely anecdotal, but I'd be surprised if he'd be easily re-elected.
 
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sebolino
Posts: 3523
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

Re: EU elections

Mon May 27, 2019 12:44 pm

Aesma wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
I am surprised that Macron's party is so strong and that the Socialists and the Republicans weren't able to profit of his constant failing as President. The French people must really be quite sick of their establishment. Macron winning reelection would be terrible for France, but I guess the alternatives aren't particularly rosy either


The socialists and republicans were in power before Macron, and what have they done for the country ? Nothing anybody can remember. Macron is changing things. Plenty of people aren't happy about that, even though they wanted change, and still want change. Change that affects all other French people except them.



I wouldn't say that for the socialists:
- End of death penalty
- 5th week of paid vacation
- Reduced work hours
- Universal healthcare
- Minimum revenue (RMI)
- ...

People always forget the good and retain the bad.

Now saying that Macron reelection would be terrible is utterly ridiculous. He's got his own way (liberal) but fights unemployment, and that's what France really need right now.
And I don't care about a bunch of idiots wearing yellow vests. I've seen so many of them driving big SUVs and angry to pay too much taxes (F*** you !).
What would be terrible is the election of the (b/w)itch Lepen from the nazionalist party or the neo-marxist Melenchon.

BTW I didn't vote Macron yesterday.
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