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seb146
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:25 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:

Mueller Report - Page 2, Volume 1 - “…the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

No underlying crime

Attorney General Barr’s summary memo dated March 24, 2019 - “…, the report identifies no actions that, in our judgment, constitute obstructive conduct, had a nexus to a pending or contemplated proceeding, and were done with corrupt intent….

No obstructive conduct

Game, set, match. Time to move on….

Mike Drop


Barr stated he doesn't think a president can obstruct justice, and came to that conclusion prior to the report. The report itself defines "did not establish" as not being an indication of innocence, rather a lack of DIRECT evidence (IE a video tape of illegal activities being performed). The circumstantial evidence is still there and abundant.

The matter is finished. The DOJ has decided that there is no obstruction. The only recourse for you anti-Trumpers is impeachment.

Mike Drop


Barr decided there was no obstruction. The Mueller Report simply laid out "here is what happened". Mueller is not able to make arrests or bring people to trial. That is the job of Congress. To investigate further to decide if any criminal proceedings (impeachment) should continue. Just because MAGA fan boys and team MAGA keep screaming "NO COLLUSION!!!!" over and over and over does not mean anything other than you all are seeing what you all want to see.

Did you read the report, Mike? The page titled "Introduction To Volume 1" is particularly interesting

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/18/70885090 ... redactions
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BerenErchamion
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:29 pm

Magog wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:
I'll never understand why Trump voters hate America and want to destroy it so much, and are willing to lie and delude themselves and everyone else in pursuit of their terrorist agenda.

It's hyperbole like this that has me extremely frustrated with my party. Frankly, it's very Trump-like, which is the ultimate irony.

It's not hyperbole. It's a fair and reasonable inference based on an accurate assessment of the real-world consequences of their actions.
 
MikeDrop
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:32 pm

Jouhou wrote:

Really, have you read the report?

It's not "finished" the only thing that's finished is Barrs respect as a lawyer. He was always the GOP legal clean up guy, but now that's all he is. Maybe read up on him and his past. Remember Iran-conta? Barr was a part of the clean up crew. It should be noted Mueller himself was very loyal to the GOP too, but being a dedicated enforcer of the law decided long ago his service to the public and upholding the law was more important than his love of the GOP. Which is why some of us respect the man even though he chose to not go against DOJ guidance (aka opinion). He's non partisan when It comes to serving the people. He is only partisan in private. If only more GOPers could make that distinction these days.I

Also considering what volume 2 actually says and not what you think it says, if he's voted out he will likely be immediately charged within a week of the inauguration of the new president.


I understand that you don't like the result, and sure, perhaps at some point in the future when the democrats are in power they might decide to charge Trump with any number of things he did that they feel are crimes. Until then, Barr's authority is not in question.

I'm not really concerned with what the democrats will do for political revenge when they are in power at some date in the future.

Mike Drop
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:38 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Really, have you read the report?

It's not "finished" the only thing that's finished is Barrs respect as a lawyer. He was always the GOP legal clean up guy, but now that's all he is. Maybe read up on him and his past. Remember Iran-conta? Barr was a part of the clean up crew. It should be noted Mueller himself was very loyal to the GOP too, but being a dedicated enforcer of the law decided long ago his service to the public and upholding the law was more important than his love of the GOP. Which is why some of us respect the man even though he chose to not go against DOJ guidance (aka opinion). He's non partisan when It comes to serving the people. He is only partisan in private. If only more GOPers could make that distinction these days.I

Also considering what volume 2 actually says and not what you think it says, if he's voted out he will likely be immediately charged within a week of the inauguration of the new president.


I understand that you don't like the result, and sure, perhaps at some point in the future when the democrats are in power they might decide to charge Trump with any number of things he did that they feel are crimes. Until then, Barr's authority is not in question.

I'm not really concerned with what the democrats will do for political revenge when they are in power at some date in the future.

Mike Drop



It took 7 Benghazi investigations to clear Clinton, and you are fine with ONE Mueller Report on Trump's collaboration with the Russians to undermine American Security?

Must be nice to be such a delusional so-called patriot.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
MikeDrop
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:41 pm

casinterest wrote:


It took 7 Benghazi investigations to clear Clinton, and you are fine with ONE Mueller Report on Trump's collaboration with the Russians to undermine American Security?

Must be nice to be such a delusional so-called patriot.


So this is about revenge for the Benghazi investigations? How many investigations will satisfy your revenge lust? 7 more?

Mike Drop
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:48 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Really, have you read the report?

It's not "finished" the only thing that's finished is Barrs respect as a lawyer. He was always the GOP legal clean up guy, but now that's all he is. Maybe read up on him and his past. Remember Iran-conta? Barr was a part of the clean up crew. It should be noted Mueller himself was very loyal to the GOP too, but being a dedicated enforcer of the law decided long ago his service to the public and upholding the law was more important than his love of the GOP. Which is why some of us respect the man even though he chose to not go against DOJ guidance (aka opinion). He's non partisan when It comes to serving the people. He is only partisan in private. If only more GOPers could make that distinction these days.I

Also considering what volume 2 actually says and not what you think it says, if he's voted out he will likely be immediately charged within a week of the inauguration of the new president.


I understand that you don't like the result, and sure, perhaps at some point in the future when the democrats are in power they might decide to charge Trump with any number of things he did that they feel are crimes. Until then, Barr's authority is not in question.

I'm not really concerned with what the democrats will do for political revenge when they are in power at some date in the future.

Mike Drop


Read the report. It's beyond reasonable doubt crimes were committed. Btw, any non-trumpists who believe Trump and his team were cleared also need to read the report. Even the redacted report is extremely damning.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:51 pm

Jouhou wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Really, have you read the report?

It's not "finished" the only thing that's finished is Barrs respect as a lawyer. He was always the GOP legal clean up guy, but now that's all he is. Maybe read up on him and his past. Remember Iran-conta? Barr was a part of the clean up crew. It should be noted Mueller himself was very loyal to the GOP too, but being a dedicated enforcer of the law decided long ago his service to the public and upholding the law was more important than his love of the GOP. Which is why some of us respect the man even though he chose to not go against DOJ guidance (aka opinion). He's non partisan when It comes to serving the people. He is only partisan in private. If only more GOPers could make that distinction these days.I

Also considering what volume 2 actually says and not what you think it says, if he's voted out he will likely be immediately charged within a week of the inauguration of the new president.


I understand that you don't like the result, and sure, perhaps at some point in the future when the democrats are in power they might decide to charge Trump with any number of things he did that they feel are crimes. Until then, Barr's authority is not in question.

I'm not really concerned with what the democrats will do for political revenge when they are in power at some date in the future.

Mike Drop


Read the report. It's beyond reasonable doubt crimes were committed. Btw, any non-trumpists who believe Trump and his team were cleared also need to read the report. Even the redacted report is extremely damning.

I've read lots of it. Can you pls direct me to any specific pages/paragraphs where criminal activity by Trump or his campaign is described beyond a reasonable doubt? Thanks

Mike Drop
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 5:59 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:

I understand that you don't like the result, and sure, perhaps at some point in the future when the democrats are in power they might decide to charge Trump with any number of things he did that they feel are crimes. Until then, Barr's authority is not in question.

I'm not really concerned with what the democrats will do for political revenge when they are in power at some date in the future.

Mike Drop


Read the report. It's beyond reasonable doubt crimes were committed. Btw, any non-trumpists who believe Trump and his team were cleared also need to read the report. Even the redacted report is extremely damning.

I've read lots of it. Can you pls direct me to any specific pages/paragraphs where criminal activity by Trump or his campaign is described beyond a reasonable doubt? Thanks

Mike Drop


Let's start out with how you omitted the definition of "did not establish" if you read the report so thoroughly. I believe that is really early on, like page 1 or 2 of the actual text of the document.

Then you go to volume 2, where much of the evidence of obstruction is DIRECT, not circumstantial, and much of it was done right in plain sight for the public to see.

The end of it has a constitutional discussion where they conclude they can investigate the president but they have to hold off on prosecution until he is out of office.
 
Magog
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 6:20 pm

Jouhou wrote:

Read the report. It's beyond reasonable doubt crimes were committed.

Rod Rosenstein read the report. He thinks that you are very wrong.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 6:23 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
casinterest wrote:


It took 7 Benghazi investigations to clear Clinton, and you are fine with ONE Mueller Report on Trump's collaboration with the Russians to undermine American Security?

Must be nice to be such a delusional so-called patriot.


So this is about revenge for the Benghazi investigations? How many investigations will satisfy your revenge lust? 7 more?

Mike Drop


Not about revenge. Just pointing out your fanboy dismissal based on known verifiable lies by the Trump Administration and Barr. This goes to the GOP's lack of credibility on items of National Security and the Constitution.
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jdstJD
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 6:25 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:

I understand that you don't like the result, and sure, perhaps at some point in the future when the democrats are in power they might decide to charge Trump with any number of things he did that they feel are crimes. Until then, Barr's authority is not in question.

I'm not really concerned with what the democrats will do for political revenge when they are in power at some date in the future.

Mike Drop


Read the report. It's beyond reasonable doubt crimes were committed. Btw, any non-trumpists who believe Trump and his team were cleared also need to read the report. Even the redacted report is extremely damning.

I've read lots of it. Can you pls direct me to any specific pages/paragraphs where criminal activity by Trump or his campaign is described beyond a reasonable doubt? Thanks

Mike Drop


It is for a jury to decide whether the facts are sufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not the prosecutor. You make the decision whether or not to take the case to trial, thereby taking the risk, but you don’t get to decide what is or is not sufficient evidence to convict. The jury does that. Mueller made his findings and legal opinion. Barr made the unilateral choice not to take the risk and the let the jury decide sufficiency of the evidence which would have been fine had he not clearly shown his bias against the case before even getting the job. They should have charged him...with conspiracy AND obstruction and let the jury take it from there.
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MikeDrop
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 6:45 pm

Jouhou wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Read the report. It's beyond reasonable doubt crimes were committed. Btw, any non-trumpists who believe Trump and his team were cleared also need to read the report. Even the redacted report is extremely damning.

I've read lots of it. Can you pls direct me to any specific pages/paragraphs where criminal activity by Trump or his campaign is described beyond a reasonable doubt? Thanks

Mike Drop


Let's start out with how you omitted the definition of "did not establish" if you read the report so thoroughly. I believe that is really early on, like page 1 or 2 of the actual text of the document.

Then you go to volume 2, where much of the evidence of obstruction is DIRECT, not circumstantial, and much of it was done right in plain sight for the public to see.

The end of it has a constitutional discussion where they conclude they can investigate the president but they have to hold off on prosecution until he is out of office.


So what I'm getting from your post is that you can't provide any specific actions by Trump or his campaign that are documented in the Mueller report, that constitute criminal behavior beyond a reasonable doubt. Is that correct? if not I'd love to see the examples that you have.

Mike Drop
 
MikeDrop
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 7:06 pm

jdstJD wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Read the report. It's beyond reasonable doubt crimes were committed. Btw, any non-trumpists who believe Trump and his team were cleared also need to read the report. Even the redacted report is extremely damning.

I've read lots of it. Can you pls direct me to any specific pages/paragraphs where criminal activity by Trump or his campaign is described beyond a reasonable doubt? Thanks

Mike Drop


It is for a jury to decide whether the facts are sufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not the prosecutor. You make the decision whether or not to take the case to trial, thereby taking the risk, but you don’t get to decide what is or is not sufficient evidence to convict. The jury does that. Mueller made his findings and legal opinion. Barr made the unilateral choice not to take the risk and the let the jury decide sufficiency of the evidence which would have been fine had he not clearly shown his bias against the case before even getting the job. They should have charged him...with conspiracy AND obstruction and let the jury take it from there.

Thousands of investigations are dropped with no charges by prosecutors every year due to lack of evidence. That it the case here, the investigators have submitted their report - with no evidence of basic criminal activity. They left it up to the prosecutor to decide how to move forward on obstruction. And the prosecutor with the authority to bring charges (AG) has determined that there was no obstruction, and dropped that case as well. Case closed.

Not really that complicated. Now if your single minded intent is to get Trump at all costs, then by all means, pursue impeachment. Or, when that fails, try to arrest him after he is out of office and take your chances with a jury. It will be seen as pure political revenge by the 50% of the country who support President Trump and do immeasurable damage to the country and to the democrat party. The discovery process alone by then-former-President Trump on all members of the DNC and congress will be quite entertaining.

Mike Drop
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 7:36 pm

To get back to the subject of this thread - Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?
My answer is no.

While I think he is using his position to try to hurt Trump politically, and I have little respect for him as a legislator, I think that this kind of thing was expected by the founders of our country. I believe that they felt that having 3 independent branches of government was crucial and I agree. I also think that they felt that the relationship would be adversarial in nature at times - as it currently is. The solution to this impasse was built in by the founders in the form of the 3rd branch of the government - the Judicial Branch. If Trump and Nadler can't figure out how to get along either one can go to the Judicial Branch for relief. I think that what is going on in this case is a sign of the strength of our system, not a weakness.

Mike Drop
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 7:45 pm

MikeDrop wrote:


Not really that complicated. Now if your single minded intent is to get Trump at all costs, then by all means, pursue impeachment. Or, when that fails, try to arrest him after he is out of office and take your chances with a jury. It will be seen as pure political revenge by the 50% of the country who support President Trump and do immeasurable damage to the country and to the democrat party. The discovery process alone by then-former-President Trump on all members of the DNC and congress will be quite entertaining.

Mike Drop

Hopefully by the time he is out of office and if AG Bar is not torpedoed by the Democrats, AG Bar will have developed a case based on overwhelming evidence for the real criminals that committed the treasonous and despicable crime of trying to frame a Presidential candidate and later a sitting President for Russian collusion.

The Democrats really don't care about the American people. This whole mess is their insurance policy if Trump won the 2016 election and apparently they are going to keep the pressure on even if it destroys our country. The Democratic party sure is a gift that keeps on giving for Putin. I'll bet he is laughing his ass off right now.
 
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jdstJD
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 7:56 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
I've read lots of it. Can you pls direct me to any specific pages/paragraphs where criminal activity by Trump or his campaign is described beyond a reasonable doubt? Thanks

Mike Drop


It is for a jury to decide whether the facts are sufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not the prosecutor. You make the decision whether or not to take the case to trial, thereby taking the risk, but you don’t get to decide what is or is not sufficient evidence to convict. The jury does that. Mueller made his findings and legal opinion. Barr made the unilateral choice not to take the risk and the let the jury decide sufficiency of the evidence which would have been fine had he not clearly shown his bias against the case before even getting the job. They should have charged him...with conspiracy AND obstruction and let the jury take it from there.

Thousands of investigations are dropped with no charges by prosecutors every year due to lack of evidence. That it the case here, the investigators have submitted their report - with no evidence of basic criminal activity. They left it up to the prosecutor to decide how to move forward on obstruction. And the prosecutor with the authority to bring charges (AG) has determined that there was no obstruction, and dropped that case as well. Case closed.

Not really that complicated. Now if your single minded intent is to get Trump at all costs, then by all means, pursue impeachment. Or, when that fails, try to arrest him after he is out of office and take your chances with a jury. It will be seen as pure political revenge by the 50% of the country who support President Trump and do immeasurable damage to the country and to the democrat party. The discovery process alone by then-former-President Trump on all members of the DNC and congress will be quite entertaining.

Mike Drop


Ok, so the only thing I feel compelled to respond to in your post is to correct you that 50% of this country does NOT support Donald trump. They never did and they certainly don’t now. As to everything else you wrote, any time spent responding to it will be futile because it’s way to far off the ledge for me to pull you back.
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MikeDrop
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:36 pm

jdstJD wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:

It is for a jury to decide whether the facts are sufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not the prosecutor. You make the decision whether or not to take the case to trial, thereby taking the risk, but you don’t get to decide what is or is not sufficient evidence to convict. The jury does that. Mueller made his findings and legal opinion. Barr made the unilateral choice not to take the risk and the let the jury decide sufficiency of the evidence which would have been fine had he not clearly shown his bias against the case before even getting the job. They should have charged him...with conspiracy AND obstruction and let the jury take it from there.

Thousands of investigations are dropped with no charges by prosecutors every year due to lack of evidence. That it the case here, the investigators have submitted their report - with no evidence of basic criminal activity. They left it up to the prosecutor to decide how to move forward on obstruction. And the prosecutor with the authority to bring charges (AG) has determined that there was no obstruction, and dropped that case as well. Case closed.

Not really that complicated. Now if your single minded intent is to get Trump at all costs, then by all means, pursue impeachment. Or, when that fails, try to arrest him after he is out of office and take your chances with a jury. It will be seen as pure political revenge by the 50% of the country who support President Trump and do immeasurable damage to the country and to the democrat party. The discovery process alone by then-former-President Trump on all members of the DNC and congress will be quite entertaining.

Mike Drop


Ok, so the only thing I feel compelled to respond to in your post is to correct you that 50% of this country does NOT support Donald trump. They never did and they certainly don’t now. As to everything else you wrote, any time spent responding to it will be futile because it’s way to far off the ledge for me to pull you back.



Ok, your by line says that you are a lawyer. Which means that you are an officer of the court. Correct? If this is true then you know what the law allows - right? As a lawyer, I'd like to know your opinion on the parts other than the 50%. Which part is over the ledge? Am I incorrect when I say that thousands of cases are dropped each year? Are prosecutors allowed no discretion on when to bring charges? Did Barr break the law? Or is it my analysis of the consequences of a political revenge prosecution after Trump is out of office that you find over the ledge?

Mike Drop
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:50 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?


There she is again - "Miss Use"! That Russian hooker shows up everywhere...

;)

stratclub wrote:
... if AG Bar is not torpedoed by the Democrats, AG Bar will have developed a case ...


It is not enough that Barr sold his soul to Trump, apparently he sold one of his "r's", too. Or maybe that is the spelling in Russian...

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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johnboy
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 9:26 pm

alfa164 wrote:


In English, the term is "misuse". Perhaps it is different in Russian...

;)



Miss Use, now there’s a pussy-grabbin’ name if ever there were...

I’m sure Mr. Nadler has all his mental faculties in situ. And I can’t wait to see the fireworks!

And please OP, you’re not really that good at this stuff. Dreadnought/VTK/Magog at least elicits a cursory eye roll when posting this kind of garbage.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 10:08 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?


There she is again - "Miss Use"! That Russian hooker shows up everywhere...

I assumed that was Lindsey Graham's drag name
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 10:24 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
Thousands of investigations are dropped with no charges by prosecutors every year due to lack of evidence. That it the case here, the investigators have submitted their report - with no evidence of basic criminal activity. They left it up to the prosecutor to decide how to move forward on obstruction. And the prosecutor with the authority to bring charges (AG) has determined that there was no obstruction, and dropped that case as well. Case closed.

Not really that complicated. Now if your single minded intent is to get Trump at all costs, then by all means, pursue impeachment. Or, when that fails, try to arrest him after he is out of office and take your chances with a jury. It will be seen as pure political revenge by the 50% of the country who support President Trump and do immeasurable damage to the country and to the democrat party. The discovery process alone by then-former-President Trump on all members of the DNC and congress will be quite entertaining.

Mike Drop


Ok, so the only thing I feel compelled to respond to in your post is to correct you that 50% of this country does NOT support Donald trump. They never did and they certainly don’t now. As to everything else you wrote, any time spent responding to it will be futile because it’s way to far off the ledge for me to pull you back.



Ok, your by line says that you are a lawyer. Which means that you are an officer of the court. Correct? If this is true then you know what the law allows - right? As a lawyer, I'd like to know your opinion on the parts other than the 50%. Which part is over the ledge? Am I incorrect when I say that thousands of cases are dropped each year? Are prosecutors allowed no discretion on when to bring charges? Did Barr break the law? Or is it my analysis of the consequences of a political revenge prosecution after Trump is out of office that you find over the ledge?

Mike Drop


Yes, prosecutors drop cases all the time at their discretion. However, that is based on a risk assessment as to the likelihood of successful prosecution. That is still not a judgment by a jury that the evidence wasn't sufficient to convict. The prosecutor just chose not to chance it. Many factors go into that analysis: witness credibility problems that may negatively impact the jury, possible legal defenses that a jury might accept that may outweigh your evidence, jury pool problems, evidentiary issues which could render sound evidence inadmissible for technical reasons that would negatively impact your case, etc. A prosecutor has to weight all of those factors and decide whether to chance it, As a former prosecutor, I can say that there are some cases that you know are perfectly good cases that you would love to proceed on but can't for any one of the above reasons and it is a terrible dilemma to be in. But, it happens. Just because a prosecutor decides not to risk a not guilty verdict does not mean that they would have definitely lost the case at trial. It just means that the risks outweighed the likelihood of success. This is what happened with the Mueller report. He told the AG his findings, which for volume 1 was that the investigation did not find sufficient evidence of conspiracy or coordination between trump's campaign and russia. In volume 2, he gave the AG his findings which established that a lot of awful things happened, but for reasons stated in the report, he couldn't conclude or nor conclude whether Trump obstructed justice. The AG at that point had the discretion to determine whether he wanted to charge people with offenses and take the cases to trial. He clearly decided against doing that. Public outrage about that is about the way he chose to exercise his discretion and many people believe it was not an objective analysis, but rather a biased decision, preceded by his unsolicited memo bashing the investigation and declaring that a president couldn't commit obstruction under any circumstances, which most lawyers knew to be absurd. So yes, prosecutors have discretion. Sometimes they drop cases they may have won and they proceed on cases the end up losing. Its just a matter of the risk they are willing to take.

I don't know if Barr broke the law. I'm not privy to all the facts and circumstances and have no ability to conduct a full analysis on that question. Nor am I a trier of fact (a judge or jury) which is my entire point. Even if I thought he had broken the law, I would have to prove my case to a jury to a degree that those reasonable people found to be sufficient to them to establish that the offense occurred. That is what "reasonable doubt" means. As I used to tell my jury panels during voir dire: reasonable doubt does not mean "all doubt" or "beyond a shadow of a doubt". If that were the standard, we could never prove a case unless there was clear proof such as video footage or if the jurors had seen the offense happen themselves. Such an absolute standard would prevent justice from being served, ever. I can't recall ever that at least one person on those panels weren't shocked that they hadn't realized that distinction.

Democrats might very well have Trump prosecuted after he leaves (or hopefully is kicked out of) office. Then again, Republicans may have him prosecuted as well if they would get out of the way and let the facts and evidence come out. They might just find themselves in a position where they can no longer fold themselves into a pretzel trying to defend him and have t grow spines and hold him accountable under the law...you know, like they had to do with Nixon.

There. I pulled you back from over the ledge. That'll be $750. :)
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casinterest
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 11:25 pm

So Back to the Thread title.
The answer is that no matter who Miss Use of Power is, Jerry Nadler should not be removed.

In contrast, back to the real news of the day

Barr has been held in Contempt by a 24-16 vote, and the House Intelligence Committee with the backing of Devin Nunes(R) has issued a subpoena for the full Mueller report.

Also the Senate Intelligence Committee which has a Rebublican majority has issued a subpoena for Don Jr. to testify about his previous statements about Russia.

I think as time goes on, the origins of this thread are going to reflect poorly on the thread start
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Wed May 08, 2019 11:31 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
casinterest wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:

Neither did President Trump, according to the Mueller Report.

Mike Drop

incorrect. But if you buy Barr's lies, you probably believe that.


Mueller Report - Page 2, Volume 1 - “…the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

No underlying crime

Attorney General Barr’s summary memo dated March 24, 2019 - “…, the report identifies no actions that, in our judgment, constitute obstructive conduct, had a nexus to a pending or contemplated proceeding, and were done with corrupt intent….

No obstructive conduct

Game, set, match. Time to move on….

Mike Drop

Yeah, Trump's lap dog Barr says "nothing to se here. move along" and we should all take it as gospel :sarcastic:
A whole bunch of prosecutors seem to disagree, but hey, in Barr we trust, right? He'd NEVER lie to protect his boss - no, never.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 2:15 am

jdstJD wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:

Ok, so the only thing I feel compelled to respond to in your post is to correct you that 50% of this country does NOT support Donald trump. They never did and they certainly don’t now. As to everything else you wrote, any time spent responding to it will be futile because it’s way to far off the ledge for me to pull you back.



Ok, your by line says that you are a lawyer. Which means that you are an officer of the court. Correct? If this is true then you know what the law allows - right? As a lawyer, I'd like to know your opinion on the parts other than the 50%. Which part is over the ledge? Am I incorrect when I say that thousands of cases are dropped each year? Are prosecutors allowed no discretion on when to bring charges? Did Barr break the law? Or is it my analysis of the consequences of a political revenge prosecution after Trump is out of office that you find over the ledge?

Mike Drop


Yes, prosecutors drop cases all the time at their discretion. However, that is based on a risk assessment as to the likelihood of successful prosecution. That is still not a judgment by a jury that the evidence wasn't sufficient to convict. The prosecutor just chose not to chance it. Many factors go into that analysis: witness credibility problems that may negatively impact the jury, possible legal defenses that a jury might accept that may outweigh your evidence, jury pool problems, evidentiary issues which could render sound evidence inadmissible for technical reasons that would negatively impact your case, etc. A prosecutor has to weight all of those factors and decide whether to chance it, As a former prosecutor, I can say that there are some cases that you know are perfectly good cases that you would love to proceed on but can't for any one of the above reasons and it is a terrible dilemma to be in. But, it happens. Just because a prosecutor decides not to risk a not guilty verdict does not mean that they would have definitely lost the case at trial. It just means that the risks outweighed the likelihood of success. This is what happened with the Mueller report. He told the AG his findings, which for volume 1 was that the investigation did not find sufficient evidence of conspiracy or coordination between trump's campaign and russia. In volume 2, he gave the AG his findings which established that a lot of awful things happened, but for reasons stated in the report, he couldn't conclude or nor conclude whether Trump obstructed justice. The AG at that point had the discretion to determine whether he wanted to charge people with offenses and take the cases to trial. He clearly decided against doing that. Public outrage about that is about the way he chose to exercise his discretion and many people believe it was not an objective analysis, but rather a biased decision, preceded by his unsolicited memo bashing the investigation and declaring that a president couldn't commit obstruction under any circumstances, which most lawyers knew to be absurd. So yes, prosecutors have discretion. Sometimes they drop cases they may have won and they proceed on cases the end up losing. Its just a matter of the risk they are willing to take.

I don't know if Barr broke the law. I'm not privy to all the facts and circumstances and have no ability to conduct a full analysis on that question. Nor am I a trier of fact (a judge or jury) which is my entire point. Even if I thought he had broken the law, I would have to prove my case to a jury to a degree that those reasonable people found to be sufficient to them to establish that the offense occurred. That is what "reasonable doubt" means. As I used to tell my jury panels during voir dire: reasonable doubt does not mean "all doubt" or "beyond a shadow of a doubt". If that were the standard, we could never prove a case unless there was clear proof such as video footage or if the jurors had seen the offense happen themselves. Such an absolute standard would prevent justice from being served, ever. I can't recall ever that at least one person on those panels weren't shocked that they hadn't realized that distinction.

Democrats might very well have Trump prosecuted after he leaves (or hopefully is kicked out of) office. Then again, Republicans may have him prosecuted as well if they would get out of the way and let the facts and evidence come out. They might just find themselves in a position where they can no longer fold themselves into a pretzel trying to defend him and have t grow spines and hold him accountable under the law...you know, like they had to do with Nixon.

There. I pulled you back from over the ledge. That'll be $750. :)

Thank you for responding. Your post has a lot of good info - perhaps it wold be worth the $$ if you were my attorney. But, at the end of the day, as I think you are acknowledging (pls correct me if I am wrong) the bottom line is that AG Barr acted within his duties in accordance with the law. His actions are politically unacceptable by the left, but not legally challenge able. As to your reference to Nixon and the Republicans who ousted him, I think that your reference to this is hyperbolic and, hints at you being as you call it - way to far off the ledge. Nixon knowingly conspired with criminals to commit felonies like breaking and entering, and then covered it up over two years, committing obstruction of justice along the way. After a two year investigation Mueller found no criminal conspiracy. While you may feel that the contents of the Mueller report are politically damaging to Trump, they are not criminal. So your reference to Nixon is off base. Unless you know of other info that shows that Trump conspired with anyone to break the law.

Anyway, thanks.

Mike Drop
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 2:19 am

ER757 wrote:
Yeah, Trump's lap dog Barr says "nothing to se here. move along" and we should all take it as gospel :sarcastic:
A whole bunch of prosecutors seem to disagree, but hey, in Barr we trust, right? He'd NEVER lie to protect his boss - no, never.

It doesn't really matter. I get it that you don't like it, but AG Barr has the authority to make the decisions that he did. The next step if you want to remove Trump is impeachment. Good luck with that.

Mike Drop
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 2:52 am

MikeDrop wrote:
ER757 wrote:
Yeah, Trump's lap dog Barr says "nothing to se here. move along" and we should all take it as gospel :sarcastic:
A whole bunch of prosecutors seem to disagree, but hey, in Barr we trust, right? He'd NEVER lie to protect his boss - no, never.

It doesn't really matter. I get it that you don't like it, but AG Barr has the authority to make the decisions that he did. The next step if you want to remove Trump is impeachment. Good luck with that.

Mike Drop



I prefer to just vote this idiot out in 2020. That will be the best outcome for this Country and the people who have the intelligence to see the damage he has done to our Democracy and our Democratic Institutions and our morality. He taints everything he touches. I am not inferring this anything to do with woman of course. :rotfl: :rotfl:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 2:54 am

MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:


Ok, your by line says that you are a lawyer. Which means that you are an officer of the court. Correct? If this is true then you know what the law allows - right? As a lawyer, I'd like to know your opinion on the parts other than the 50%. Which part is over the ledge? Am I incorrect when I say that thousands of cases are dropped each year? Are prosecutors allowed no discretion on when to bring charges? Did Barr break the law? Or is it my analysis of the consequences of a political revenge prosecution after Trump is out of office that you find over the ledge?

Mike Drop


Yes, prosecutors drop cases all the time at their discretion. However, that is based on a risk assessment as to the likelihood of successful prosecution. That is still not a judgment by a jury that the evidence wasn't sufficient to convict. The prosecutor just chose not to chance it. Many factors go into that analysis: witness credibility problems that may negatively impact the jury, possible legal defenses that a jury might accept that may outweigh your evidence, jury pool problems, evidentiary issues which could render sound evidence inadmissible for technical reasons that would negatively impact your case, etc. A prosecutor has to weight all of those factors and decide whether to chance it, As a former prosecutor, I can say that there are some cases that you know are perfectly good cases that you would love to proceed on but can't for any one of the above reasons and it is a terrible dilemma to be in. But, it happens. Just because a prosecutor decides not to risk a not guilty verdict does not mean that they would have definitely lost the case at trial. It just means that the risks outweighed the likelihood of success. This is what happened with the Mueller report. He told the AG his findings, which for volume 1 was that the investigation did not find sufficient evidence of conspiracy or coordination between trump's campaign and russia. In volume 2, he gave the AG his findings which established that a lot of awful things happened, but for reasons stated in the report, he couldn't conclude or nor conclude whether Trump obstructed justice. The AG at that point had the discretion to determine whether he wanted to charge people with offenses and take the cases to trial. He clearly decided against doing that. Public outrage about that is about the way he chose to exercise his discretion and many people believe it was not an objective analysis, but rather a biased decision, preceded by his unsolicited memo bashing the investigation and declaring that a president couldn't commit obstruction under any circumstances, which most lawyers knew to be absurd. So yes, prosecutors have discretion. Sometimes they drop cases they may have won and they proceed on cases the end up losing. Its just a matter of the risk they are willing to take.

I don't know if Barr broke the law. I'm not privy to all the facts and circumstances and have no ability to conduct a full analysis on that question. Nor am I a trier of fact (a judge or jury) which is my entire point. Even if I thought he had broken the law, I would have to prove my case to a jury to a degree that those reasonable people found to be sufficient to them to establish that the offense occurred. That is what "reasonable doubt" means. As I used to tell my jury panels during voir dire: reasonable doubt does not mean "all doubt" or "beyond a shadow of a doubt". If that were the standard, we could never prove a case unless there was clear proof such as video footage or if the jurors had seen the offense happen themselves. Such an absolute standard would prevent justice from being served, ever. I can't recall ever that at least one person on those panels weren't shocked that they hadn't realized that distinction.

Democrats might very well have Trump prosecuted after he leaves (or hopefully is kicked out of) office. Then again, Republicans may have him prosecuted as well if they would get out of the way and let the facts and evidence come out. They might just find themselves in a position where they can no longer fold themselves into a pretzel trying to defend him and have t grow spines and hold him accountable under the law...you know, like they had to do with Nixon.

There. I pulled you back from over the ledge. That'll be $750. :)



Thank you for responding. Your post has a lot of good info - perhaps it wold be worth the $$ if you were my attorney. But, at the end of the day, as I think you are acknowledging (pls correct me if I am wrong) the bottom line is that AG Barr acted within his duties in accordance with the law. His actions are politically unacceptable by the left, but not legally challenge able.

Well in my opinion, you’re mostly correct. Yes as a prosecutor he was within his right to exercise his discretion to decline to prosecute under the facts underlying the investigation. However, I think that because of his unique position within our government, it can be argued that his actions were not “within his duties” since it appears that his decision was not objectively based, but was rather based on a subjective bias in favor of trump. His actions are also possibly able to be challenged legally because congress can impeach him for failing to act within his constitutional duties as the Attorney General, who takes an oath to protect and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic. An impeachment proceeding is a congressional trial and, therefore is a legal proceeding. His duty is to uphold and enforce the law as it is intended to protect the American people, not advocate and/or protect the president, regardless of who the person is who currently serves in that office. The argument is that he is failing to properly perform his duties and because of that he should be removed from office. That would constitute a legal challenge to his actions.


As to your reference to Nixon and the Republicans who ousted him, I think that your reference to this is hyperbolic and, hints at you being as you call it - way to far off the ledge. Nixon knowingly conspired with criminals to commit felonies like breaking and entering, and then covered it up over two years, committing obstruction of justice along the way. After a two year investigation Mueller found no criminal conspiracy. While you may feel that the contents of the Mueller report are politically damaging to Trump, they are not criminal. So your reference to Nixon is off base. Unless you know of other info that shows that Trump conspired with anyone to break the law.

I am not concerned with the conspiracy issue. I never felt that the conspiracy component of the investigation was going to be established because of the elements of the crime that luckily for trumps folks couldn’t have been met under the facts. Collusion, yes. But that’s not the criminal offense under review. My focus is on obstruction of justice which IS what Nixon was accused of. Nixon resigned before congress had to proceed with the impeachment. He did so because he recognized that his acts attempting to obstruct the investigation into Watergate were criminal even if the underlying crime wasn’t able to be proven. In that instance, congress found out about and were successful in obtaining the incriminating tapes. At that point, the jig was up and the Republicans told him he had to go or they would join in impeachment with the Democrats. That’s the parallel I’m drawing to the trump situation. Congress is trying to find incriminating evidence which they have the subpoena power to do. Republicans and Barr are aiding trump in stonewalling and blocking congress from using their constitutional power to investigate just because hey believe the investigation should end. They don’t get to make that call. The constitution says otherwise.

That will be another $250 ;)

Anyway, thanks.

Mike Drop
Lawyer, frequent air traveler and aviation enthusiast.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:21 am

WarRI1 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
ER757 wrote:
Yeah, Trump's lap dog Barr says "nothing to se here. move along" and we should all take it as gospel :sarcastic:
A whole bunch of prosecutors seem to disagree, but hey, in Barr we trust, right? He'd NEVER lie to protect his boss - no, never.

It doesn't really matter. I get it that you don't like it, but AG Barr has the authority to make the decisions that he did. The next step if you want to remove Trump is impeachment. Good luck with that.

Mike Drop



I prefer to just vote this idiot out in 2020. That will be the best outcome for this Country and the people who have the intelligence to see the damage he has done to our Democracy and our Democratic Institutions and our morality. He taints everything he touches. I am not inferring this anything to do with woman of course. :rotfl: :rotfl:

Good luck with that. Real Americans are just sick and tired of the sleazballs that keep getting elected and for maybe the first time in American history someone has been elected that is not a politician and does actually listen to the will of the people. I hope The Mighty Orange One is successful at draining the cesspool/swamp.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:22 am

MikeDrop wrote:
ER757 wrote:
Yeah, Trump's lap dog Barr says "nothing to se here. move along" and we should all take it as gospel :sarcastic:
A whole bunch of prosecutors seem to disagree, but hey, in Barr we trust, right? He'd NEVER lie to protect his boss - no, never.

It doesn't really matter. I get it that you don't like it, but AG Barr has the authority to make the decisions that he did. The next step if you want to remove Trump is impeachment. Good luck with that.

Mike Drop



Which decision?

The original summary statement?
The summary clarification statement?
The rehashed statement the morning of the redacted Mueller Report?

All that running back and forth of 'I meant this, No, I meant that ..ummm I meant this.
And the lying before Congress when asked if Mueller was in agreement...he answered he did not know WHILE has fat ass was sitting on a letter from Mueller written a month earlier stating they were not in agreement.

Those actions point to a very confused LIAR at best to a shady, no integrity bullshit lawyer willing to masked the truth and skirt the law as he sees fit at worst...and that's how appears to most Americans today.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:11 am

jdstJD wrote:
I am not concerned with the conspiracy issue. I never felt that the conspiracy component of the investigation was going to be established because of the elements of the crime that luckily for trumps folks couldn’t have been met under the facts. Collusion, yes. But that’s not the criminal offense under review.
To the contrary, the purpose of the Mueller investigation was to find out if Trump colluded with the Russian government to win the election. The charges of obstruction were based on somehow Trump trying to cover up this crime (which he did not commit).

jdstJD wrote:
My focus is on obstruction of justice which IS what Nixon was accused of. Nixon resigned before congress had to proceed with the impeachment. He did so because he recognized that his acts attempting to obstruct the investigation into Watergate were criminal even if the underlying crime wasn’t able to be proven. In that instance, congress found out about and were successful in obtaining the incriminating tapes. At that point, the jig was up and the Republicans told him he had to go or they would join in impeachment with the Democrats.
I hear what you are saying, but in absence of a fundamental crime that the obstruction was trying to hide there will be little or no support from any Republicans to impeach Trump. Republicans abandoned Nixon because of the underlying crime, the obstruction was just icing on the cake. To this point, there is not much public support for impeachment. Well over 55% of the people dont support it. I think this is because there was no crime. This will change if evidence comes out of criminal activity by Trump.

jdstJD wrote:
That’s the parallel I’m drawing to the trump situation. Congress is trying to find incriminating evidence which they have the subpoena power to do. Republicans and Barr are aiding trump in stonewalling and blocking congress from using their constitutional power to investigate just because hey believe the investigation should end. They don’t get to make that call. The constitution says otherwise.
Congress does have some power, but it is also limited by the constitution. Executive privledge is a valid course of action for many things. I'm sure that the Supreme Court will decide how much Trump needs to cooperate with Congress. And, by the way, if Trumps actions to date are an indication of how he will respond he will follow the court's rulings to a tee.

Mike Drop
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:15 am

MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
I've read lots of it. Can you pls direct me to any specific pages/paragraphs where criminal activity by Trump or his campaign is described beyond a reasonable doubt? Thanks

Mike Drop


It is for a jury to decide whether the facts are sufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not the prosecutor. You make the decision whether or not to take the case to trial, thereby taking the risk, but you don’t get to decide what is or is not sufficient evidence to convict. The jury does that. Mueller made his findings and legal opinion. Barr made the unilateral choice not to take the risk and the let the jury decide sufficiency of the evidence which would have been fine had he not clearly shown his bias against the case before even getting the job. They should have charged him...with conspiracy AND obstruction and let the jury take it from there.

Thousands of investigations are dropped with no charges by prosecutors every year due to lack of evidence. That it the case here, the investigators have submitted their report - with no evidence of basic criminal activity. They left it up to the prosecutor to decide how to move forward on obstruction. And the prosecutor with the authority to bring charges (AG) has determined that there was no obstruction, and dropped that case as well. Case closed.

Not really that complicated. Now if your single minded intent is to get Trump at all costs, then by all means, pursue impeachment. Or, when that fails, try to arrest him after he is out of office and take your chances with a jury. It will be seen as pure political revenge by the 50% of the country who support President Trump and do immeasurable damage to the country and to the democrat party. The discovery process alone by then-former-President Trump on all members of the DNC and congress will be quite entertaining.

Mike Drop


There is no lack of evidence. Trump isn't being charged because the GOP has twisted the constitution to mean "The president is above the law" because Congress won't do their duty and impeach him (and I don't blame the house for not doing it when McConnell, the one man more corrupt than Trump, leads the senate)
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:18 am

MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
I am not concerned with the conspiracy issue. I never felt that the conspiracy component of the investigation was going to be established because of the elements of the crime that luckily for trumps folks couldn’t have been met under the facts. Collusion, yes. But that’s not the criminal offense under review.
To the contrary, the purpose of the Mueller investigation was to find out if Trump colluded with the Russian government to win the election. The charges of obstruction were based on somehow Trump trying to cover up this crime (which he did not commit).

jdstJD wrote:
My focus is on obstruction of justice which IS what Nixon was accused of. Nixon resigned before congress had to proceed with the impeachment. He did so because he recognized that his acts attempting to obstruct the investigation into Watergate were criminal even if the underlying crime wasn’t able to be proven. In that instance, congress found out about and were successful in obtaining the incriminating tapes. At that point, the jig was up and the Republicans told him he had to go or they would join in impeachment with the Democrats.
I hear what you are saying, but in absence of a fundamental crime that the obstruction was trying to hide there will be little or no support from any Republicans to impeach Trump. Republicans abandoned Nixon because of the underlying crime, the obstruction was just icing on the cake. To this point, there is not much public support for impeachment. Well over 55% of the people dont support it. I think this is because there was no crime. This will change if evidence comes out of criminal activity by Trump.

jdstJD wrote:
That’s the parallel I’m drawing to the trump situation. Congress is trying to find incriminating evidence which they have the subpoena power to do. Republicans and Barr are aiding trump in stonewalling and blocking congress from using their constitutional power to investigate just because hey believe the investigation should end. They don’t get to make that call. The constitution says otherwise.
Congress does have some power, but it is also limited by the constitution. Executive privledge is a valid course of action for many things. I'm sure that the Supreme Court will decide how much Trump needs to cooperate with Congress. And, by the way, if Trumps actions to date are an indication of how he will respond he will follow the court's rulings to a tee.

Mike Drop


You don't have to be proven guilty of a crime to be guilty of covering it up. Otherwise someone covering for a friend (aka obstructing justice) couldn't be charged for covering for their criminal friend.

stratclub wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
It doesn't really matter. I get it that you don't like it, but AG Barr has the authority to make the decisions that he did. The next step if you want to remove Trump is impeachment. Good luck with that.

Mike Drop



I prefer to just vote this idiot out in 2020. That will be the best outcome for this Country and the people who have the intelligence to see the damage he has done to our Democracy and our Democratic Institutions and our morality. He taints everything he touches. I am not inferring this anything to do with woman of course. :rotfl: :rotfl:

Good luck with that. Real Americans are just sick and tired of the sleazballs that keep getting elected and for maybe the first time in American history someone has been elected that is not a politician and does actually listen to the will of the people. I hope The Mighty Orange One is successful at draining the cesspool/swamp.


Trump doesn't represent the people. It's hard to say he even represents his supporters- he lies to his supporters too the only difference is that they eat it up.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:25 am

MikeDrop wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
I am not concerned with the conspiracy issue. I never felt that the conspiracy component of the investigation was going to be established because of the elements of the crime that luckily for trumps folks couldn’t have been met under the facts. Collusion, yes. But that’s not the criminal offense under review.
To the contrary, the purpose of the Mueller investigation was to find out if Trump colluded with the Russian government to win the election. The charges of obstruction were based on somehow Trump trying to cover up this crime (which he did not commit).


No. The purpose of the Mueller investigation was to find out how and why Russia interfered in the election. Right wing media have decided it was all about dethroning the orange one. It just so happens that, at every turn team MAGA including dear leader, just happened to be there gleefully taking part.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 5:55 am

BN747 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
ER757 wrote:
Yeah, Trump's lap dog Barr says "nothing to se here. move along" and we should all take it as gospel :sarcastic:
A whole bunch of prosecutors seem to disagree, but hey, in Barr we trust, right? He'd NEVER lie to protect his boss - no, never.

It doesn't really matter. I get it that you don't like it, but AG Barr has the authority to make the decisions that he did. The next step if you want to remove Trump is impeachment. Good luck with that.

Mike Drop



Which decision?

The original summary statement?
The summary clarification statement?
The rehashed statement the morning of the redacted Mueller Report?

All that running back and forth of 'I meant this, No, I meant that ..ummm I meant this.
And the lying before Congress when asked if Mueller was in agreement...he answered he did not know WHILE has fat ass was sitting on a letter from Mueller written a month earlier stating they were not in agreement.

Those actions point to a very confused LIAR at best to a shady, no integrity bullshit lawyer willing to masked the truth and skirt the law as he sees fit at worst...and that's how appears to most Americans today.

BN747

Mueller's letter did not say that Mueller disagreed with AG Bar's summery of findings which AG Bar confirmed in a telephone conversation. Mueller's concern was that AG Bars summery of findings could have been larger in scope. When Mueller's report was released, ALL of Mueller's concerns were addressed. By any stretch of the imagination, AG Bar did not lie about anything.

I watched the entire five hours of AG Bar's testimony and was appalled that after the hearing, the bold faced lie after lie after lie that Negative Nancy spewed for what was it 15 minutes? No. AG Bar did not lie about Mueller's letter or anything else in that 5 hour Democratic kangaroo court. Both Negative Nancy Pelosi and Jerry Nadler both need to be recognized for their slimy despicable misconduct in executing their public office and forced to resign or forcibly removed from public office.

It sure is underhanded that MSNBC/CNN didn't feel the need to report actual and verifiable facts in regards to this and decided that a false narrative and bold faced lies are in the best interest of their viewers.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 9:40 am

Jouhou wrote:
There is no lack of evidence. Trump isn't being charged because......

Rod Rosenstein, who knows much more about this than you do, said that your statement is not true.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 1:59 pm

When you read the below, you understand just how much of a "yes' man Rosenstein was too trump, and why Barr and Rosenstein should fear their contempt charges from Congress.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/ ... -barr.html

"When Trump demanded personal loyalty from the FBI director and fired him for failing to quash a probe into Trump’s campaign, Rosenstein dutifully wrote a letter supplying Trump with a phony pretext.
......
.......

And then of course Rosenstein joined with Attorney General William Barr to impose their judgment that Robert Mueller’s investigation would not accuse the president of obstructing justice. One of Trump’s many acts of obstruction included instructing Corey Lewandowski, a private citizen, to order Sessions to violate Department procedure and take control of the investigation. As Ben Wittes notes, “If true and provable beyond a reasonable doubt, it is unlawful obstruction of justice.”
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 2:13 pm

You probably know that Senator Richard Burr, REPUBLICAN chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has subpoenaed Don Trump Junior to appear. They want him to clarify statements he previously made before the Senate that don’t jive with current knowledge.
Has Republican Burr Miss Used his authority?
Has Republican Burr lost his mental faculties?
717,727,737,747,757,767,777,787
L1011,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD80/90
A300,A319,320,321,330,340,
CRJ,E135/45/190,
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 2:46 pm

stratclub wrote:
BN747 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
It doesn't really matter. I get it that you don't like it, but AG Barr has the authority to make the decisions that he did. The next step if you want to remove Trump is impeachment. Good luck with that.

Mike Drop



Which decision?

The original summary statement?
The summary clarification statement?
The rehashed statement the morning of the redacted Mueller Report?

All that running back and forth of 'I meant this, No, I meant that ..ummm I meant this.
And the lying before Congress when asked if Mueller was in agreement...he answered he did not know WHILE has fat ass was sitting on a letter from Mueller written a month earlier stating they were not in agreement.

Those actions point to a very confused LIAR at best to a shady, no integrity bullshit lawyer willing to masked the truth and skirt the law as he sees fit at worst...and that's how appears to most Americans today.

BN747

Mueller's letter did not say that Mueller disagreed with AG Bar's summery of findings which AG Bar confirmed in a telephone conversation. Mueller's concern was that AG Bars summery of findings could have been larger in scope. When Mueller's report was released, ALL of Mueller's concerns were addressed. By any stretch of the imagination, AG Bar did not lie about anything.

I watched the entire five hours of AG Bar's testimony and was appalled that after the hearing, the bold faced lie after lie after lie that Negative Nancy spewed for what was it 15 minutes? No. AG Bar did not lie about Mueller's letter or anything else in that 5 hour Democratic kangaroo court. Both Negative Nancy Pelosi and Jerry Nadler both need to be recognized for their slimy despicable misconduct in executing their public office and forced to resign or forcibly removed from public office.

It sure is underhanded that MSNBC/CNN didn't feel the need to report actual and verifiable facts in regards to this and decided that a false narrative and bold faced lies are in the best interest of their viewers.


Mueller's letter and phone call said that Barr mislead the American people. Mueller raised the question about why his report and Barr's report were so far off.

And you still have not answered my question.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Magog
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
Mueller's letter and phone call said that Barr mislead the American people.

No, that's not at all true. Mueller has been clear that nothing in Barr's letter was inaccurate. Mueller wished that the letter provided more context because he was worried that the media would paint a false narrative. Given the state of today's media, that is an understandable concern. In any event, the report was released not long after the letter was released. Read the report and then read Barr's letter. Let me know specifically what in Barr's letter is untrue - because even Mueller couldn't find such a thing.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:23 pm

casinterest wrote:
When you read the below, you understand just how much of a "yes' man Rosenstein was too trump, and why Barr and Rosenstein should fear their contempt charges from Congress.


Months ago you guys were saying that if Trump fired Rosenstein he would be obstructing justice.
Rosenstein is the one that authorized the special counsel investigation.

It's laughable to suggest that Rosenstein was a Trump puppet. If anything he was part of the Trump opposition.

I guess we can all at least agree that Rosenstein needed to go. Small victory imo.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:26 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
When you read the below, you understand just how much of a "yes' man Rosenstein was too trump, and why Barr and Rosenstein should fear their contempt charges from Congress.


Months ago you guys were saying that if Trump fired Rosenstein he would be obstructing justice.
Rosenstein is the one that authorized the special counsel investigation.

It's laughable to suggest that Rosenstein was a Trump puppet. If anything he was part of the Trump opposition.

I guess we can all at least agree that Rosenstein needed to go. Small victory imo.

Rosenstien rolled over for Trump whenever asked to Rollover. The only small shred of hope left for a truly uncorrupt appointee was that he stay in. Alas with session gone, Rosenstein gone, all we are left with are Trump Loyalists who will put the country after any request from Trump.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
apodino
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
When you read the below, you understand just how much of a "yes' man Rosenstein was too trump, and why Barr and Rosenstein should fear their contempt charges from Congress.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/ ... -barr.html

"When Trump demanded personal loyalty from the FBI director and fired him for failing to quash a probe into Trump’s campaign, Rosenstein dutifully wrote a letter supplying Trump with a phony pretext.
......
.......

And then of course Rosenstein joined with Attorney General William Barr to impose their judgment that Robert Mueller’s investigation would not accuse the president of obstructing justice. One of Trump’s many acts of obstruction included instructing Corey Lewandowski, a private citizen, to order Sessions to violate Department procedure and take control of the investigation. As Ben Wittes notes, “If true and provable beyond a reasonable doubt, it is unlawful obstruction of justice.”


Huh? Rosenstein was the one who ordered the special counsel investigation in the first place and who hired Mueller. If he was a Trump yes man, why would he do these things?

A couple of points. I have already stated that I do not believe that Nadler is misusing his power. That being said, the contempt of congress charge is just red meat for the base and nothing ever becomes of them, as republicans found out with Eric Holder. But, I believe Trump is trying to get a judge to quash the subpoenas on the basis of protected grand jury testimony and executive privilege. If the judge does toss the subpoenas, then the contempt of congress vote looks very silly and could cause other problems for not just Nadler, but for future congresses in their oversight of the White House.

Lastly, an inspector general report relating to the circumstances surrounding the special counsel investigation and the preamble is going to release in a couple of weeks. This is not getting a lot of media attention yet, but look for the contents of this report to be a bombshell, and cause even more tension between lawmakers in both parties, as well as the White House and even individuals in the Obama administration.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 3:49 pm

apodino wrote:
casinterest wrote:
When you read the below, you understand just how much of a "yes' man Rosenstein was too trump, and why Barr and Rosenstein should fear their contempt charges from Congress.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/ ... -barr.html

"When Trump demanded personal loyalty from the FBI director and fired him for failing to quash a probe into Trump’s campaign, Rosenstein dutifully wrote a letter supplying Trump with a phony pretext.
......
.......

And then of course Rosenstein joined with Attorney General William Barr to impose their judgment that Robert Mueller’s investigation would not accuse the president of obstructing justice. One of Trump’s many acts of obstruction included instructing Corey Lewandowski, a private citizen, to order Sessions to violate Department procedure and take control of the investigation. As Ben Wittes notes, “If true and provable beyond a reasonable doubt, it is unlawful obstruction of justice.”


Huh? Rosenstein was the one who ordered the special counsel investigation in the first place and who hired Mueller. If he was a Trump yes man, why would he do these things?

A couple of points. I have already stated that I do not believe that Nadler is misusing his power. That being said, the contempt of congress charge is just red meat for the base and nothing ever becomes of them, as republicans found out with Eric Holder. But, I believe Trump is trying to get a judge to quash the subpoenas on the basis of protected grand jury testimony and executive privilege. If the judge does toss the subpoenas, then the contempt of congress vote looks very silly and could cause other problems for not just Nadler, but for future congresses in their oversight of the White House.

Lastly, an inspector general report relating to the circumstances surrounding the special counsel investigation and the preamble is going to release in a couple of weeks. This is not getting a lot of media attention yet, but look for the contents of this report to be a bombshell, and cause even more tension between lawmakers in both parties, as well as the White House and even individuals in the Obama administration.


The report was about Trump and his campaign and Russian interference. Trump invoked Executive Privileged over the report. That is a conflict of interest in any business or political arena. Congress has oversight. The judge will not toss the Subpoenas. Trump is setting himself up for impeachment.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:08 pm

casinterest wrote:
apodino wrote:
casinterest wrote:
When you read the below, you understand just how much of a "yes' man Rosenstein was too trump, and why Barr and Rosenstein should fear their contempt charges from Congress.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/ ... -barr.html



Huh? Rosenstein was the one who ordered the special counsel investigation in the first place and who hired Mueller. If he was a Trump yes man, why would he do these things?

A couple of points. I have already stated that I do not believe that Nadler is misusing his power. That being said, the contempt of congress charge is just red meat for the base and nothing ever becomes of them, as republicans found out with Eric Holder. But, I believe Trump is trying to get a judge to quash the subpoenas on the basis of protected grand jury testimony and executive privilege. If the judge does toss the subpoenas, then the contempt of congress vote looks very silly and could cause other problems for not just Nadler, but for future congresses in their oversight of the White House.

Lastly, an inspector general report relating to the circumstances surrounding the special counsel investigation and the preamble is going to release in a couple of weeks. This is not getting a lot of media attention yet, but look for the contents of this report to be a bombshell, and cause even more tension between lawmakers in both parties, as well as the White House and even individuals in the Obama administration.


The report was about Trump and his campaign and Russian interference. Trump invoked Executive Privileged over the report. That is a conflict of interest in any business or political arena. Congress has oversight. The judge will not toss the Subpoenas. Trump is setting himself up for impeachment.



There is no legal requirement to provide the report to congress. Protecting grand jury testimony is required by a law passed by congress. They can change that law if they want - but they shouldn't. You, and others, still have not addressed this EXTREMELY key point.

Why the hell does the left think Trump wants to set himself up for impeachment??? Delusional. The left needs to put up or shut up. Impeach him or not. Tired of this.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:09 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
apodino wrote:

Huh? Rosenstein was the one who ordered the special counsel investigation in the first place and who hired Mueller. If he was a Trump yes man, why would he do these things?

A couple of points. I have already stated that I do not believe that Nadler is misusing his power. That being said, the contempt of congress charge is just red meat for the base and nothing ever becomes of them, as republicans found out with Eric Holder. But, I believe Trump is trying to get a judge to quash the subpoenas on the basis of protected grand jury testimony and executive privilege. If the judge does toss the subpoenas, then the contempt of congress vote looks very silly and could cause other problems for not just Nadler, but for future congresses in their oversight of the White House.

Lastly, an inspector general report relating to the circumstances surrounding the special counsel investigation and the preamble is going to release in a couple of weeks. This is not getting a lot of media attention yet, but look for the contents of this report to be a bombshell, and cause even more tension between lawmakers in both parties, as well as the White House and even individuals in the Obama administration.


The report was about Trump and his campaign and Russian interference. Trump invoked Executive Privileged over the report. That is a conflict of interest in any business or political arena. Congress has oversight. The judge will not toss the Subpoenas. Trump is setting himself up for impeachment.



There is no legal requirement to provide the report to congress. Protecting grand jury testimony is required by a law passed by congress. They can change that law if they want - but they shouldn't. You, and others, still have not addressed this EXTREMELY key point.

Why the hell does the left think Trump wants to set himself up for impeachment??? Delusional. The left needs to put up or shut up. Impeach him or not. Tired of this.


No. The grand jury testimony can be protected by adhering to congress's request.
Under "the national security/foreign intelligence exception to grand jury secrecy, the attorney general can provide grand jury information to the chairs of the House Intelligence and Judiciary committees without asking for court permission,"


So honestly, why do you keep covering for these lying cowards in the Trump administration?
Trump is setting himself up for impeachment by not allowing for congressional oversight.


Also remember, Even the Senate Intelligence committee is not done with it's investigation despite the lies of Trump and McConnell about this being over.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:27 pm

casinterest wrote:
No. The grand jury testimony can be protected by adhering to congress's request.
Under "the national security/foreign intelligence exception to grand jury secrecy, the attorney general can provide grand jury information to the chairs of the House Intelligence and Judiciary committees without asking for court permission,"



Neither of those exceptions apply in this situation.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 4:51 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
No. The grand jury testimony can be protected by adhering to congress's request.
Under "the national security/foreign intelligence exception to grand jury secrecy, the attorney general can provide grand jury information to the chairs of the House Intelligence and Judiciary committees without asking for court permission,"



Neither of those exceptions apply in this situation.


Why? The Chief Executive is in a conflict of interest as he and his lying cronies are under investigation. That is a national security issue . Hands down.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 5:02 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
No. The grand jury testimony can be protected by adhering to congress's request.



Neither of those exceptions apply in this situation.


Why? The Chief Executive is in a conflict of interest as he and his lying cronies are under investigation. That is a national security issue . Hands down.


Not in the context of the statute.
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 1966
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 5:39 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
There is no lack of evidence. Trump isn't being charged because......

Rod Rosenstein, who knows much more about this than you do, said that your statement is not true.


:roll: I can read. Can u?
 
stratclub
Topic Author
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Re: Should Jerry Nadler be Removed for miss use Of Power?

Thu May 09, 2019 6:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
BN747 wrote:


Which decision?

The original summary statement?
The summary clarification statement?
The rehashed statement the morning of the redacted Mueller Report?

All that running back and forth of 'I meant this, No, I meant that ..ummm I meant this.
And the lying before Congress when asked if Mueller was in agreement...he answered he did not know WHILE has fat ass was sitting on a letter from Mueller written a month earlier stating they were not in agreement.

Those actions point to a very confused LIAR at best to a shady, no integrity bullshit lawyer willing to masked the truth and skirt the law as he sees fit at worst...and that's how appears to most Americans today.

BN747

Mueller's letter did not say that Mueller disagreed with AG Bar's summery of findings which AG Bar confirmed in a telephone conversation. Mueller's concern was that AG Bars summery of findings could have been larger in scope. When Mueller's report was released, ALL of Mueller's concerns were addressed. By any stretch of the imagination, AG Bar did not lie about anything.

I watched the entire five hours of AG Bar's testimony and was appalled that after the hearing, the bold faced lie after lie after lie that Negative Nancy spewed for what was it 15 minutes? No. AG Bar did not lie about Mueller's letter or anything else in that 5 hour Democratic kangaroo court. Both Negative Nancy Pelosi and Jerry Nadler both need to be recognized for their slimy despicable misconduct in executing their public office and forced to resign or forcibly removed from public office.

It sure is underhanded that MSNBC/CNN didn't feel the need to report actual and verifiable facts in regards to this and decided that a false narrative and bold faced lies are in the best interest of their viewers.


Mueller's letter and phone call said that Barr mislead the American people. Mueller raised the question about why his report and Barr's report were so far off.

And you still have not answered my question.


What question is that? Try reading my last post. The truth is in there.

Scroll down to paragraph four and please explain how some of the ridiculous claims posted in this thread about lying and withholding evidence by AG Bar are valid. Mueller's letter did not pertain to anything in AG Bars summery of findings as being contested by Mueller and Mueller's concerns in his letter were completely addressed when the full redacted report was released.

It sure looks like Nadler will have to be led away in handcuffs to stop this horrific miscarriage of justice. In his 19 terms in office I wonder what other under handed things he has done for what he assumes "The American People" should want.

Mueller's leaked letter to AG Bar that was NOT released to the public.

Washington, D. C. 20530

A

. l5 .
March27, 2019 R5 (1/134 :5 13.17
6' 2, .
a
r"
The Honorable William P. Barr
Attorney General of the United States
Department of Justice
Washington, DC.

Re: Report of the Special Counsel on the Investigation Into Russian Interference in the
2016 Presidential Election and Obstruction of Justice (March 2019)

Dear Attorney General Barr:

1 previously sent you a letter dated March 25, 2019, that enclosed the introduction and
executive summary for each volume of the Special Counsel?s report marked with redactions to
remove any information that potentially could be protected by Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure
that concerned declination decisions; or that related to a charged case. We also had marked
an additional two sentences for review and have now con?rmed that these sentences can be
released publicly.

Accordingly, the enclosed documents are in a form that can be released to the public
consistent with legal requirements and Department policies. I am requesting that you provide these
materials to Congress and authorize their public release at this time.

As we stated in our meeting of March 5 and reiterated to the Department early in the
afternoon of March 24, the introductions and executive summaries of our two-volume report
accurately summarize this Of?ce?s work and conclusions. The summary letter the Department
sent to Congress and released to the public late in the afternoon of March 24 did not fully capture
the context, nature, and substance of this Of?ce?s work and conclusions. We communicated that
concern to the Department on the morning of March 25. There is new public confusion about
critical aSpects of the results of our investigation. This threatens to undermine a central purpose
for which the Department appointed the Special Counsel: to assure full public con?dence in the
outcome of the investigations. See Department of Justice, Press Release (May 17, 2017).

While we understand that the Department is reviewing the full report to determine what is
appropriate for public release?a process that our Of?ce is working with you to complete?that
process need not delay release of the enclosed materials. Release at this time would alleviate the
misunderstandings that have arisen and would answer congressional and public questions about
the nature and outcome of our investigation. It would also accord with the standard for public


2

release of noti?cations to Congress cited in your letter. See 28 C.F.R. 609(c) (?the Attorney
General may determine that public release? of congressional noti?cations ?would be in the public
interest?).

Sincerely yours,

WMA.

Robert s. M?eller, 111
Special Counsel

Enclosures

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