User avatar
Jouhou
Topic Author
Posts: 1921
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 9:57 am

https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/maz ... kyactiv-x/

I'm absolutely pumped for this to hit the US. A few other manufacturers are boasting engines touting combustion engine perfection.

More efficient+more power. Win-win.

Maybe the world is going electric, but not yet. These engines will be the combustion engine's last hurrah.

I'll be buying one of these skyactiv-x vehicles when they come out. My Mazda 3 is over 10 years old now.

Anyone else excited about a next-gen engine?
 
Maloak33
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 10:15 am

O yes. Electric is definitely going to take over, but just not yet. The way that the combustion engine has changed since the 1st one is remarkable. That "purr" sound coming from a combustion engine is amazing..... something the electric engine can't do.
Of all the things I’ve lost, I miss my mind the most.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5904
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 10:45 am

Jouhou wrote:
https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/mazda-stories/engineers/skyactiv-x/

I'm absolutely pumped for this to hit the US. A few other manufacturers are boasting engines touting combustion engine perfection.

More efficient+more power. Win-win.

Maybe the world is going electric, but not yet. These engines will be the combustion engine's last hurrah.

I'll be buying one of these skyactiv-x vehicles when they come out. My Mazda 3 is over 10 years old now.

Anyone else excited about a next-gen engine?



I saw a review of a prototype with this diesotto engine, it was promising- quiet, fairly powerful. Interesting that they were the ones to bring it to the market and not MB who’d also dabbled with the concept many years ago. I do suspect Mazda will ditch the rotary engine. That concept seems to be no longer viable.

I do like some electric cars, but I don’t think we are there yet with them. Plugin hybrids are the way at the moment. I think the Merc E300de might be my favourite at the moment for its extreme low fuel consumption and long range.

Where I live though a car isn’t that useful for getting around the local area, the traffic is too slow and congested. I also work close by so I can avoid car usage to a large degree. An E300de if it were sold here could still make sense - only fill it up when diesel prices are low. Alternatively if you could charge it at work, that would be ideal.

It might surprise some, I’m still interested in cars though, particularly technology and old race cars / classic cars.
 
TSS
Posts: 3075
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 1:21 pm

Jouhou wrote:
https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/mazda-stories/engineers/skyactiv-x/

I'm absolutely pumped for this to hit the US. A few other manufacturers are boasting engines touting combustion engine perfection.

More efficient+more power. Win-win.

Maybe the world is going electric, but not yet. These engines will be the combustion engine's last hurrah.

I'll be buying one of these skyactiv-x vehicles when they come out. My Mazda 3 is over 10 years old now.

Anyone else excited about a next-gen engine?

Beware of advertising hyperbole. While I don't doubt Mazda has done an admirable job of refining and combining technology and concepts that were well-known to hot rodders as far back as the 1950s, nothing mentioned in the linked advertisement is new or groundbreaking. I found it curious that Mazda also neglected to mention the big ol' supercharger that is bolted to the engine pictured on the first page which by itself would account for the increase in horsepower per liter over conventional engines.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 1:54 pm

Interesting article...

http://ceramicrotaryengines.com/
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
WIederling
Posts: 8357
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 2:00 pm

TSS wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/mazda-stories/engineers/skyactiv-x/

I'm absolutely pumped for this to hit the US. A few other manufacturers are boasting engines touting combustion engine perfection.

More efficient+more power. Win-win.

Maybe the world is going electric, but not yet. These engines will be the combustion engine's last hurrah.

I'll be buying one of these skyactiv-x vehicles when they come out. My Mazda 3 is over 10 years old now.

Anyone else excited about a next-gen engine?

Beware of advertising hyperbole. While I don't doubt Mazda has done an admirable job of refining and combining technology and concepts that were well-known to hot rodders as far back as the 1950s, nothing mentioned in the linked advertisement is new or groundbreaking. I found it curious that Mazda also neglected to mention the big ol' supercharger that is bolted to the engine pictured on the first page which by itself would account for the increase in horsepower per liter over conventional engines.


Selfignition with premixed fuel air mix is fickle. you need pretty fast control on intake temperature
and compression ratio to get the desired volume ignition in just the right moment.
They get the higher efficiency from increasing pressure ratio ( to diesel values )
Murphy is an optimist
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2853
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 2:14 pm

Just some thoughts. After driving a Prius several years (they have an amazing range, upwards of 600 miles with a 12 gallon tank), I switched to a non-hybrid RAV4 with all the safety features, I just don't drive enough to justify the expense of a hybrid anymore.

I am thinking that a plug in hybrid, mostly electric driven may be optimal. Say a very light efficient gas engine of about 100 horsepower that keeps a 100 -150 mile range battery pack charged or backed up. I also think that fast roadside chargers will be available by reservations - 300 mile plus battery packs really will not be needed. Such a vehicle will have lots of power, you will tell it how far and where you are going - it will operate the gas engine as needed, and tell you when to stop and recharge. An 8-10 gallon gas tank could well ensure a 400 mile range. No anxiety needed.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 2:38 pm

From what I read they do the compression ignition at partial load, and the usual spark ignition at high load. They also control the air admission as to control the compression.

That way they avoid making diesel like emissions at high load. They do the reverse on their diesel engines, lowering their compression ratios to lower emissions.

It seems interesting, but I doubt we'll see record breaking efficiency out of this, the fact they're touting "well to wheel" emissions reduction says it all.

The fact it's a 2 litre 4 cylinder doesn't help.

cpd wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/mazda-stories/engineers/skyactiv-x/

I'm absolutely pumped for this to hit the US. A few other manufacturers are boasting engines touting combustion engine perfection.

More efficient+more power. Win-win.

Maybe the world is going electric, but not yet. These engines will be the combustion engine's last hurrah.

I'll be buying one of these skyactiv-x vehicles when they come out. My Mazda 3 is over 10 years old now.

Anyone else excited about a next-gen engine?



I saw a review of a prototype with this diesotto engine, it was promising- quiet, fairly powerful. Interesting that they were the ones to bring it to the market and not MB who’d also dabbled with the concept many years ago. I do suspect Mazda will ditch the rotary engine. That concept seems to be no longer viable.

I do like some electric cars, but I don’t think we are there yet with them. Plugin hybrids are the way at the moment. I think the Merc E300de might be my favourite at the moment for its extreme low fuel consumption and long range.

Where I live though a car isn’t that useful for getting around the local area, the traffic is too slow and congested. I also work close by so I can avoid car usage to a large degree. An E300de if it were sold here could still make sense - only fill it up when diesel prices are low. Alternatively if you could charge it at work, that would be ideal.

It might surprise some, I’m still interested in cars though, particularly technology and old race cars / classic cars.


If you don't use a car much, I doubt buying a 60K$ car makes much sense.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 2:47 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Just some thoughts. After driving a Prius several years (they have an amazing range, upwards of 600 miles with a 12 gallon tank), I switched to a non-hybrid RAV4 with all the safety features, I just don't drive enough to justify the expense of a hybrid anymore.

I am thinking that a plug in hybrid, mostly electric driven may be optimal. Say a very light efficient gas engine of about 100 horsepower that keeps a 100 -150 mile range battery pack charged or backed up. I also think that fast roadside chargers will be available by reservations - 300 mile plus battery packs really will not be needed. Such a vehicle will have lots of power, you will tell it how far and where you are going - it will operate the gas engine as needed, and tell you when to stop and recharge. An 8-10 gallon gas tank could well ensure a 400 mile range. No anxiety needed.


For my needs a PHEV is indeed ideal, I would use the gas engine maybe 10 times a year. Well, that might be a problem in itself.

Main issue is that I already got a free car for commuting, with free diesel, free turnpikes and tunnels, free parking, so I only need a car for personal use and travel, no way I can justify buying anything other than a well used cheap car.

Mazda's argument seems to be that a PHEV is not eco-friendly because you add the pollution of an electric car with the one of a gas car. If you drive a lot in gas mode, they're definitely right, but for me a PHEV is an electric car that you can use for long distances occasionally. If you do a lot of long distance driving, hybrid is not the way.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2853
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 4:00 pm

In practical terms hybrids come in two packages. One just perfects the gas mileage - say a standard Prius or Camry hybrid, both have relatively small battery packs. Both could possibly hit a 600+ mile range, definitely cars for going long distances. The second are plug in hybrids with heavy battery packs and relatively heavy engine/gas tanks. These are not optimal for long distances, although you could do them.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9126
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 6:08 pm

I think they need to go with hyper efficient gas engine and capacitor/small battery mated to an all electric drive system. Engine runs at a near constant speed, its optimum efficiency, and the capacitor allows for burst power as needed and the engine provides the continuous energy.

All the benefits of a gas engine, long run time and distance and fast to refuel.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Aesma wrote:

The fact it's a 2 litre 4 cylinder doesn't help.



But wait there’s more, they are also designing a new straight 6 with the same technology.
 
TSS
Posts: 3075
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 6:48 pm

Tugger wrote:
I think they need to go with hyper efficient gas engine and capacitor/small battery mated to an all electric drive system. Engine runs at a near constant speed, its optimum efficiency, and the capacitor allows for burst power as needed and the engine provides the continuous energy.

All the benefits of a gas engine, long run time and distance and fast to refuel.

That's a "series hybrid". A car that can be driven using either the engine or the battery pack(s) is called a "parallel hybrid".
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Topic Author
Posts: 1921
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 7:15 pm

TSS wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/mazda-stories/engineers/skyactiv-x/

I'm absolutely pumped for this to hit the US. A few other manufacturers are boasting engines touting combustion engine perfection.

More efficient+more power. Win-win.

Maybe the world is going electric, but not yet. These engines will be the combustion engine's last hurrah.

I'll be buying one of these skyactiv-x vehicles when they come out. My Mazda 3 is over 10 years old now.

Anyone else excited about a next-gen engine?

Beware of advertising hyperbole. While I don't doubt Mazda has done an admirable job of refining and combining technology and concepts that were well-known to hot rodders as far back as the 1950s, nothing mentioned in the linked advertisement is new or groundbreaking. I found it curious that Mazda also neglected to mention the big ol' supercharger that is bolted to the engine pictured on the first page which by itself would account for the increase in horsepower per liter over conventional engines.


I've read about it in several places- I just used the official page to post about it. There are other new engines coming out that I'm less well versed in that will also give boosts in power and efficiency.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9126
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 7:36 pm

TSS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I think they need to go with hyper efficient gas engine and capacitor/small battery mated to an all electric drive system. Engine runs at a near constant speed, its optimum efficiency, and the capacitor allows for burst power as needed and the engine provides the continuous energy.

All the benefits of a gas engine, long run time and distance and fast to refuel.

That's a "series hybrid". A car that can be driven using either the engine or the battery pack(s) is called a "parallel hybrid".

Yes, OK, but I am actually talking about something different from what we currently have.. The version we have today have a mechanical linkage between the engine and drive wheel. I am going for a all electric drive train. No transmission, just an electric motor pushing the wheels. The fueled engine, which could be gas, or propane, or fuels cell, just provides the energy for the electric system.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 9:09 pm

The Nissan Note hybrid is like that. It's an electric car, with a small battery, and a gas engine that is only a generator.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
TSS
Posts: 3075
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 9:13 pm

Tugger wrote:
TSS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I think they need to go with hyper efficient gas engine and capacitor/small battery mated to an all electric drive system. Engine runs at a near constant speed, its optimum efficiency, and the capacitor allows for burst power as needed and the engine provides the continuous energy.

All the benefits of a gas engine, long run time and distance and fast to refuel.

That's a "series hybrid". A car that can be driven using either the engine or the battery pack(s) is called a "parallel hybrid".

Yes, OK, but I am actually talking about something different from what we currently have.. The version we have today have a mechanical linkage between the engine and drive wheel.

Yes, that's called a "parallel" hybrid because there are two different, independent ways of driving the wheels- electric or gasoline.

Tugger wrote:
I am going for a all electric drive train. No transmission, just an electric motor pushing the wheels. The fueled engine, which could be gas, or propane, or fuels cell, just provides the energy for the electric system.

That's an almost perfect description of a "series" hybrid, in which a gasoline, diesel, or other type of non-electric engine serves only to turn an alternator/generator which recharges the vehicle's batteries that power an all-electric drivetrain. Not unlike an aircraft APU, the engine in a series hybrid charges the system but can't move the vehicle on it's own.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
TSS
Posts: 3075
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 9:52 pm

Too late to add this as an edit to my previous post, so...

As far as I know the Owen Magnetic, built from 1915-1922, was the first production car to use a series hybrid drivetrain although it didn't use batteries for power storage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Magnetic
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
KentB27
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Sun May 12, 2019 10:41 pm

I think it's great that Mazda is coming up with alternatives to electrification, however I still remain a bit skeptical of these engines. Mazda tends to be extremely tight lipped about their new technology and they also tend to not get these new engines released in the timeline that they had originally promised. For example, I own a 2015 Mazda 6. It's a great car, but I was really interested in buying a 6 with a SkyActiv Diesel engine. But Mazda overpromised and underdelivered over and over again with the SkyActiv D engine coming to America. We were supposed to get this engine 5 years ago and they've still failed to get this engine to the US. I got tired of waiting and bought a 6 with the SkyActiv G 2.5 instead. Turns out I was right to not keep waiting....At this point they might as well just give up with bringing the SkyActiv D to the US. It has crappy mpg ratings and VW's dieselgate ruined people's perception of diesel engines in passenger cars.

I've also heard that the SkyActiv X engine is delayed for the US market. It was supposed to debut when the 2019 Mazda 3 came out. But Mazda is dilly-dallying as usual. I love my Mazda 6 and I think they make great cars but Mazda really irritates me with their constant overpromising and underdelivering.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Mon May 13, 2019 1:27 am

TSS wrote:
Yes, that's called a "parallel" hybrid because there are two different, independent ways of driving the wheels- electric or gasoline.

Tugger wrote:
I am going for a all electric drive train. No transmission, just an electric motor pushing the wheels. The fueled engine, which could be gas, or propane, or fuels cell, just provides the energy for the electric system.

That's an almost perfect description of a "series" hybrid, in which a gasoline, diesel, or other type of non-electric engine serves only to turn an alternator/generator which recharges the vehicle's batteries that power an all-electric drivetrain. Not unlike an aircraft APU, the engine in a series hybrid charges the system but can't move the vehicle on it's own.

I haven't previously come across either of those terms (series/parallel) in connection with electric vehicle drivetrains, but I can see exactly what is meant by them.

My personal preference would be for a parallel system where the gasoline engine was available to top up the battery periodically when running around town, but also available via a direct single gear drive to take over at highway cruising speeds (say 50mph plus). No need for a gearbox, auto or otherwise; just one gear to cover everything from 50-80mph. Everything below 50mph, plus occasional bursts of acceleration or extra power for hills, would come from electric drive.

Up thread somebody suggested a small highly efficient 100hp gasoline engine. :lol:
I suppose if you insist on running a 6,000 pound Chevy Suburban you might need that much, but I reckon most smaller cars can cruise at 60-70 mph on very modest amounts of power (e.g. just 40hp). I used to run a V6 that held 70mph with my foot barely resting on the throttle, so in reality all you need is a 350cc motorbike engine.

The other factor is intelligent charging from the gasoline engine linked to sat nav and user profiles. If you are on your way home at the end of the day, based on previous patterns, the system can anticipate a mains charge and not bother running the gasoline engine to maintain the battery capacity at 100%. It can also "learn" that there is a charge point available when you visit your sister across town, but that there isn't a charge point when you visit your mother-in-law at a different address.

Best of all, even when you change plans and suddenly embark on an unscheduled 100 mile dash to the hospital, you still have the gasoline engine to get you going. And every time you stop at a red light, the battery is getting a boost.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
TSS
Posts: 3075
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Mon May 13, 2019 3:07 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
TSS wrote:
Yes, that's called a "parallel" hybrid because there are two different, independent ways of driving the wheels- electric or gasoline.

Tugger wrote:
I am going for a all electric drive train. No transmission, just an electric motor pushing the wheels. The fueled engine, which could be gas, or propane, or fuels cell, just provides the energy for the electric system.

That's an almost perfect description of a "series" hybrid, in which a gasoline, diesel, or other type of non-electric engine serves only to turn an alternator/generator which recharges the vehicle's batteries that power an all-electric drivetrain. Not unlike an aircraft APU, the engine in a series hybrid charges the system but can't move the vehicle on it's own.

I haven't previously come across either of those terms (series/parallel) in connection with electric vehicle drivetrains, but I can see exactly what is meant by them.

My personal preference would be for a parallel system where the gasoline engine was available to top up the battery periodically when running around town, but also available via a direct single gear drive to take over at highway cruising speeds (say 50mph plus). No need for a gearbox, auto or otherwise; just one gear to cover everything from 50-80mph. Everything below 50mph, plus occasional bursts of acceleration or extra power for hills, would come from electric drive.

That could certainly be done via reprogramming of a conventional hybrid such as a Prius. I don't know if anyone has successfully hacked a Prius yet, or if anyone has even tried.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Up thread somebody suggested a small highly efficient 100hp gasoline engine. :lol:
I suppose if you insist on running a 6,000 pound Chevy Suburban you might need that much, but I reckon most smaller cars can cruise at 60-70 mph on very modest amounts of power (e.g. just 40hp). I used to run a V6 that held 70mph with my foot barely resting on the throttle, so in reality all you need is a 350cc motorbike engine.

The other factor is intelligent charging from the gasoline engine linked to sat nav and user profiles. If you are on your way home at the end of the day, based on previous patterns, the system can anticipate a mains charge and not bother running the gasoline engine to maintain the battery capacity at 100%. It can also "learn" that there is a charge point available when you visit your sister across town, but that there isn't a charge point when you visit your mother-in-law at a different address.

Best of all, even when you change plans and suddenly embark on an unscheduled 100 mile dash to the hospital, you still have the gasoline engine to get you going. And every time you stop at a red light, the battery is getting a boost.

All-electric Teslas offer something similar to what you describe with regard to charging locations being highlighted on the satnav screen as shown in this Tesla review by my favorite Scottish vlogger-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3lvdpxgjaY
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
WIederling
Posts: 8357
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: The next gen of combustion engines for cars

Mon May 13, 2019 7:23 am

TSS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
TSS wrote:
That's a "series hybrid". A car that can be driven using either the engine or the battery pack(s) is called a "parallel hybrid".

Yes, OK, but I am actually talking about something different from what we currently have.. The version we have today have a mechanical linkage between the engine and drive wheel.

Yes, that's called a "parallel" hybrid because there are two different, independent ways of driving the wheels- electric or gasoline.

Tugger wrote:
I am going for a all electric drive train. No transmission, just an electric motor pushing the wheels. The fueled engine, which could be gas, or propane, or fuels cell, just provides the energy for the electric system.

That's an almost perfect description of a "series" hybrid, in which a gasoline, diesel, or other type of non-electric engine serves only to turn an alternator/generator which recharges the vehicle's batteries that power an all-electric drivetrain. Not unlike an aircraft APU, the engine in a series hybrid charges the system but can't move the vehicle on it's own.


There are enough examples around with no battery. What you have is the mechanical gearbox replaced with motor/generator combo. ( the variations : direct mechanical linkage, hydrostatic linkage, hydrodynamic linkage, electric linkage ( dieselelectric ))
). Only the electric linkage allows easy energy storage added to handle load peaks and recuperation.
The Toyota Prius solution was a good fit for the time but it is a vastly complicated machine.
Trend is KISS. High Energy density electric motor/generator thingies are the future.
Murphy is an optimist

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: zakuivcustom and 53 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos