Olddog
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 10:50 am

Israel illegals colonies is not expanding?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 1:52 pm

casinterest wrote:
We already discussed the regions? how can you be so caviler that you cannot remember previous threads.

I understand your desire to keep things vague as it gives you flexibility to slither hither and yon in your debate, but once you flag an opponent's argument and somehow get it removed, it no longer exists and cannot be used as a reference.

If you cannot clearly state your positions in an above board manner I would think you would question your own veracity so that nobody else would have to do it for you.

You're use of the word "cavalier here is inappropriate, I have a right to keep the focus of discussion on what is actually being said rather than some vague unverifiable figment of multiple people's imagination.
casinterest wrote:
But since you need to be reminded.

Syria,
Lebanon
Gaza,
Yemen,
Iraq.

All Regions where Iran is arming people that are actively using those weapons on others.

Ok Let's go through your list:

Syria
Iran has for the last couple of years been very active in the military effort to help the Syrian government and the coalition defeat ISIS and drive them out of Syria. Their efforts have been parallel to the efforts of the United States, Britain, France and the other coalition members who are at war with the Wahhabi extremists. The Iranians have also been supportive of the legitimate government of Syria, as have many other nations.

Lebanon
Iran is on good terms and has extensive relations with Lebanon as it is with all it's neighbors which include; Afghanistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey and Turkmenistan. Iran has no border disputes or quarrels with any of these countries.

Gaza
You list Gaza as if it were a "region", by that I assume that you mean a country, but listing Gaza as a country is a misnomer as the country in this case is Palestine, which is currently occupied by a hostile power. Iran is supportive of the Palestinians, so may be said to have good relations with "Gaza".

Yemen
Yemen is a nearby country that is unfortunately currently being invaded by its neighboring country: Saudi Arabia. Iran has not been a part in the difficulties that have led up to the Saudi actions but Iran is supportive of the Yemeni nation and the Yemeni people in their struggle with Saudi Arabia. Thus, Iran has excellent relations with Yemen and Yemen can be added to the list of nations above that Iran has good relations with.

Iraq
Iran has excellent relations with the government and the people of Iraq with the exception being the Salafist Sunni faction and any old diehard Saddam fans. Iran has contributed heavily to helping Iraq stabilize itself after the chaos and bloodshed caused by the 2003-2008 US invasion and overthrow of the Sunni regime. Iranian forces can be credited with almost single handedly expelling ISIS from eastern Iraq including such towns as Tikrit, Kifiri, Tuz Khurmatu and Samarra. Many Iranian soldiers gave their lives in the struggle to bring stability to Iraq and the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people are grateful for this sacrifice by Iran. Iraq has recently pledged solidarity with Iran in its struggle with the United states.

If you would like to debate any of these points, it would be helpful if you would treat them individually and state your arguments clearly so that you don't just leave behind a mishmash of words of disagreement which would make it very hard to respond to.
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 2:08 pm

casinterest wrote:
Israel hasn't expanded in years, and as long as Iran keeps supplying the terrorists that continue to destabilize the region, then there will be consequences such as embargos. The US will not need to implement a draft to fight Iran. the US has no plans to invade it. Just prevent them from obtaining nuclear weapons that they would supply to terrorists.

Israel certainly has been expanding recently. They have been evicting Palestinians wholesale in the west bank where they are placing the most recent batch of "settlers". They are also creating new settlements in Gaza after cutting off the water supply to nearby Palestinians.

BTW
Iran supplies no "terrorists" to the Palestinians, they do supply logistics and training to mostly Lebanese combatants. Also your charge that Iran is 'desatbalizing" the region is exactly backwards as it is Israel that has been destabilizing the region for years. Iran is merely working for justice for the Palestinian people.

May I ask why you seem to be willing to support the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people? How did you come to view Palestinians as being less than human.

If you are privy to the Bolton / PNAC battle plans please tell us about them, you might also communicate them to the Pentagon which doesn't seem to be a full partner in the planning for the upcoming Iran war.
 
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scbriml
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 2:19 pm

casinterest wrote:
All Regions where Iran is arming people that are actively using those weapons on others.


How is that different to USA (and others) arming Israel and Saudi Arabia (just to pick two)? It's not.

casinterest wrote:
Israel hasn't expanded in years


What?!?! :spit:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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casinterest
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 2:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
casinterest wrote:
All Regions where Iran is arming people that are actively using those weapons on others.


How is that different to USA (and others) arming Israel and Saudi Arabia (just to pick two)? It's not.

casinterest wrote:
Israel hasn't expanded in years


What?!?! :spit:


Sorry, but no.
Israel and the US respond to haphazard threats from terrorists launching bombs.

Israel claimed all of the territory it currently has under it's control in 1967. The settlements will need to be negotiated as negotiations continue, but at this point with Iran supplying and funding disrest in the territories , that negotiation will not happen.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 2:51 pm

Israel claims territory illegally, then treat people living there as sub-citizens, which itself is illegal even if the territory claims were legal.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
kaitak
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 5:37 pm

It just goes to prove "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". The problem for Israel, particularly, is that for the people in Gaza and other occupied territories, there is no alternative. If the Israelis could prove to them (if they had the respect or interest to do so) that there was an alternative route to better their lives, then maybe it would improve matters. The Israelis' treatment of Palestinians has in effect been "making a rod for their own back". Of course, there is an element of extremism among Palestinians, BUT if you take everything away from people - their livelihoods, their ability to look after their children properly, all the things that make for a decent life - including hope for a decent life, then WHAT do you expect? Maybe if they could focus on that, then things would improve. As things stand at the moment, there is very little positive for ordinary Palestinians to look forward to and I doubt if any of them has the slightest optimism about Trump's peace plan.

So, where does the spark for change come from?
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 6:11 pm

Aesma wrote:
Israel claims territory illegally, then treat people living there as sub-citizens, which itself is illegal even if the territory claims were legal.



As long as Iran and the people it supports keep calling for the annihilation of Israel, and terrorist attacks on it's citizens, I don't see much changing. Territorial claims will fall to the wayside while such events occur.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 6:16 pm

kaitak wrote:
It just goes to prove "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". The problem for Israel, particularly, is that for the people in Gaza and other occupied territories, there is no alternative. If the Israelis could prove to them (if they had the respect or interest to do so) that there was an alternative route to better their lives, then maybe it would improve matters. The Israelis' treatment of Palestinians has in effect been "making a rod for their own back". Of course, there is an element of extremism among Palestinians, BUT if you take everything away from people - their livelihoods, their ability to look after their children properly, all the things that make for a decent life - including hope for a decent life, then WHAT do you expect? Maybe if they could focus on that, then things would improve. As things stand at the moment, there is very little positive for ordinary Palestinians to look forward to and I doubt if any of them has the slightest optimism about Trump's peace plan.

So, where does the spark for change come from?

A spark for peace in the ME can come from only one place: Israel. And if it came, it could only come in one form: a total renunciation of any further expansion of the state of Israel. And it would have to come from the people themselves, it would have to have deep roots in the Israeli populace. A press release or a mere statement in the UN buy a Likud party spokesperson would not do.
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 6:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Israel claims territory illegally, then treat people living there as sub-citizens, which itself is illegal even if the territory claims were legal.



As long as Iran and the people it supports keep calling for the annihilation of Israel, and terrorist attacks on it's citizens, I don't see much changing. Territorial claims will fall to the wayside while such events occur.
You can't take the words of the most extreme of the Iranians as equivalent to the actual actions of the Israelis in Palestine and still expect to be taken seriously.

Since you avoided the questions I posed above, I'll ask again:
"May I ask why you seem to be willing to support the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people? How did you come to view Palestinians as being less than human?"
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 6:34 pm

Spar wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Israel claims territory illegally, then treat people living there as sub-citizens, which itself is illegal even if the territory claims were legal.



As long as Iran and the people it supports keep calling for the annihilation of Israel, and terrorist attacks on it's citizens, I don't see much changing. Territorial claims will fall to the wayside while such events occur.
You can't take the words of the most extreme of the Iranians as equivalent to the actual actions of the Israelis in Palestine and still expect to be taken seriously.

Since you avoided the questions I posed above, I'll ask again:
"May I ask why you seem to be willing to support the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people? How did you come to view Palestinians as being less than human?"


Who said I view the Palestinians as less than human? If you are going to make up garbage. Prepare to take it out. And as for Genocide. I don't see that happening . You will notice no strikes occur unless the Palestinians have launched an attack. If the Palestinians could ever form a government without calling for the destruction out of Israel, they will do well.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 7:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
Spar wrote:
casinterest wrote:


As long as Iran and the people it supports keep calling for the annihilation of Israel, and terrorist attacks on it's citizens, I don't see much changing. Territorial claims will fall to the wayside while such events occur.
You can't take the words of the most extreme of the Iranians as equivalent to the actual actions of the Israelis in Palestine and still expect to be taken seriously.

Since you avoided the questions I posed above, I'll ask again:
"May I ask why you seem to be willing to support the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people? How did you come to view Palestinians as being less than human?"


Who said I view the Palestinians as less than human? If you are going to make up garbage. Prepare to take it out. And as for Genocide. I don't see that happening . You will notice no strikes occur unless the Palestinians have launched an attack. If the Palestinians could ever form a government without calling for the destruction out of Israel, they will do well.

However TF it's worded why don't you just come out and state the reason why you think it's OK for the Israeli's to be doing what they are doing to the Palestinians and have been doing to the Palestinians for the last 140 years.

Everything else is bullshit.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 7:12 pm

Spar wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Spar wrote:
You can't take the words of the most extreme of the Iranians as equivalent to the actual actions of the Israelis in Palestine and still expect to be taken seriously.

Since you avoided the questions I posed above, I'll ask again:


Who said I view the Palestinians as less than human? If you are going to make up garbage. Prepare to take it out. And as for Genocide. I don't see that happening . You will notice no strikes occur unless the Palestinians have launched an attack. If the Palestinians could ever form a government without calling for the destruction out of Israel, they will do well.

However TF it's worded why don't you just come out and state the reason why you think it's OK for the Israeli's to be doing what they are doing to the Palestinians and have been doing to the Palestinians for the last 140 years.

Everything else is bullshit.


140 Years?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 7:19 pm

OK 134 years, the first Jewish settlers began arriving in Palestine in 1885 after trying to over throw the Tzar and losing the revolution. The Palestinians welcomed them and gave them refuge. But they weren't "refugees" they came to create a Jewish state.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 9:42 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Israel claims territory illegally, then treat people living there as sub-citizens, which itself is illegal even if the territory claims were legal.



As long as Iran and the people it supports keep calling for the annihilation of Israel, and terrorist attacks on it's citizens, I don't see much changing. Territorial claims will fall to the wayside while such events occur.

Iran never called for the annihilation of israel. They called for regime change. Israel has been commiting terrorism and genocide against the Palestinians since day one in 1948 and that might be okay with you but it's not okay with Iran.
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Thu May 30, 2019 9:56 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Israel has been commiting terrorism and genocide against the Palestinians since day one in 1948 and that might be okay with you but it's not okay with us.

The Zionists who are the ones in control of Israel have been committing terrorism and genocide against the Palestinians since long before the creation of the state of Israel. It has been a continuum of criminal behavior from the time the first Russian "refugees" began arriving in the 1880s.

It should be mentioned that over the last millennium, the Palestinians had been the Jewish people's best friends and had provided a safe haven for Jews escaping European pogroms over and over throughout the last thousand years or more. The Jews had fought shoulder to shoulder with the Islamic "Palestinians" against the Crusaders. Historically, there never has been any religious discrimination in the Levant until the Zionists arrived and created their Jewish state.
 
AeroVega
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 7:02 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Israel has been commiting terrorism and genocide against the Palestinians since day one in 1948 and that might be okay with you but it's not okay with Iran.


I have seen the word "genocide" used a couple of times, but that is the wrong term to describe Israel's behavior. A more accurate term would be "ethnic cleansing".

According to Wikipedia "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making it ethnically homogeneous".

Continuously building and expanding Jewish settlements is one of Israel's ways of achieving this.
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 7:24 am

AeroVega wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Israel has been commiting terrorism and genocide against the Palestinians since day one in 1948 and that might be okay with you but it's not okay with Iran.


I have seen the word "genocide" used a couple of times, but that is the wrong term to describe Israel's behavior. A more accurate term would be "ethnic cleansing".

According to Wikipedia "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making it ethnically homogeneous".

Continuously building and expanding Jewish settlements is one of Israel's ways of achieving this.

Yet they've slaughtered a lot of Palestinians in the process of whatever it is that they're doing.

Kind of a nebulous distinction IMO.
 
AeroVega
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 7:56 am

Spar wrote:
Yet they've slaughtered a lot of Palestinians in the process of whatever it is that they're doing.


That is true but that does not make it genocide.

This is what genocide looks like (warning: graphic content): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ausc ... ropped.jpg

Spar wrote:
Kind of a nebulous distinction IMO.


The problem with using a hyperbolic term like genocide is that it weakens your argument and alienates people who may otherwise be sympathetic to your position in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (myself included).
 
blacksoviet
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 8:10 am

AeroVega wrote:
Spar wrote:
Yet they've slaughtered a lot of Palestinians in the process of whatever it is that they're doing.


That is true but that does not make it genocide.

This is what genocide looks like (warning: graphic content): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ausc ... ropped.jpg

Spar wrote:
Kind of a nebulous distinction IMO.


The problem with using a hyperbolic term like genocide is that it weakens your argument and alienates people who may otherwise be sympathetic to your position in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (myself included).

If dropping white phosphorus on hospitals is not genocide then I don't know what is.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 8:14 am

Spar wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Israel has been commiting terrorism and genocide against the Palestinians since day one in 1948 and that might be okay with you but it's not okay with Iran.


I have seen the word "genocide" used a couple of times, but that is the wrong term to describe Israel's behavior. A more accurate term would be "ethnic cleansing".

According to Wikipedia "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making it ethnically homogeneous".

Continuously building and expanding Jewish settlements is one of Israel's ways of achieving this.

Yet they've slaughtered a lot of Palestinians in the process of whatever it is that they're doing.

Kind of a nebulous distinction IMO.


They are different words for a reason, nevertheless.

In any case what does this have to do with the current efforts by Bolton to poke Khamenei?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 8:18 am

AeroVega wrote:
The problem with using a hyperbolic term like genocide is that it weakens your argument and alienates people who may otherwise be sympathetic to your position in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (myself included).

People who quibble on the fringes usually aren't interested in the subject anyway.
 
alfa164
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 8:28 am

kaitak wrote:
It just goes to prove "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". The problem for Israel, particularly, is that for the people in Gaza and other occupied territories, there is no alternative. If the Israelis could prove to them (if they had the respect or interest to do so) that there was an alternative route to better their lives, then maybe it would improve matters. The Israelis' treatment of Palestinians has in effect been "making a rod for their own back". Of course, there is an element of extremism among Palestinians, BUT if you take everything away from people - their livelihoods, their ability to look after their children properly, all the things that make for a decent life - including hope for a decent life, then WHAT do you expect? Maybe if they could focus on that, then things would improve. As things stand at the moment, there is very little positive for ordinary Palestinians to look forward to and I doubt if any of them has the slightest optimism about Trump's peace plan.

So, where does the spark for change come from?


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: This should be required reading before anyone posts another uninformed comment... and Mssrs. Bolton, Trump, et al, should be required to write this on the blackboard 50 times before they are allowed to speak another word about the Middle East.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 8:30 am

Aaron747 wrote:
In any case what does this have to do with the current efforts by Bolton to poke Khamenei?

The current topic being discussed was casinterest's claim that Iran is trying to destabilize the region. However casinterest doesn't choose to defend his assertion, so the conversation had devolved into whatever anyone has on their mind. The title of the thread is "The Iran Threat Thread" but as you point out, the "threat" is coming from the other direction. Nobody seems to be willing to discuss that.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 9:36 am

Spar wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
In any case what does this have to do with the current efforts by Bolton to poke Khamenei?

The current topic being discussed was casinterest's claim that Iran is trying to destabilize the region. However casinterest doesn't choose to defend his assertion, so the conversation had devolved into whatever anyone has on their mind. The title of the thread is "The Iran Threat Thread" but as you point out, the "threat" is coming from the other direction. Nobody seems to be willing to discuss that.


Everyone but the most intellectually dishonest can probably agree on the following:

- 100+ years of unmitigated colonialism produced the politically tenuous Middle East of today

- Existing tribalism in the region, intertwined with highly politicized religious power, eliminates the effectiveness of usual external economic pressures and democratic remedies (arguably in today’s Israel as well)

- Long term prognosis is poor and potential for conflict high if Western powers continue to play favorites and inflate economic values through commodities and other resources
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Spar
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Re: The Iran Threat Thread

Fri May 31, 2019 4:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Everyone but the most intellectually dishonest can probably agree on the following:
I don't disagree with your points, but please forgive me if I expand on them a bit.
Aaron747 wrote:
- 100+ years of unmitigated colonialism produced the politically tenuous Middle East of today
There have been two kinds of colonialism in the region, the subversion of any local political voice by the two major colonial powers of the early 20th century: Britain and France. They drew the map and created the countries of the region (with the exceptions of Israel, Egypt and Iran). The states they created were designed to be divided against themselves so as to make them easier to manipulate. The conflicts that these actions created have caused westerners who know little about the region or its history to make comments like "these people have been fighting each other for a thousand years" or similar remarks. That is completely untrue, the region had been stable and peaceful for many hundreds of years prior to the arrival of the colonial powers; in fact the last time the region had encountered a period of turmoil anything similar to the present time was during the Crusades. We are currently dealing with the dissolution of these unnatural entities which had been created in the early 20th century.

The other colonial creation is Israel, which was created by the infiltration of mostly Russian immigrants from the late 19th century until the mid 20th century when they had enough manpower (and WWII surplus weapons) to overthrow the society that had been living peacefully in the region for the last two thousand years (with the exception of the era of the crusades).

Aaron747 wrote:
- Existing tribalism in the region, intertwined with highly politicized religious power, eliminates the effectiveness of usual external economic pressures and democratic remedies (arguably in today’s Israel as well)
Another way of looking at it would be to see that the colonial powers saddled the region with inorganic economic structures which gave local tyrants of any stripe powers to manipulate the local economies for purely self interest. With the old power structures in a shambles, all the past checks and balances went out the window and the new, western aligned economic systems encouraged corruption; bribes replaced what had used to be traditional ways of getting things done.
Aaron747 wrote:
- Long term prognosis is poor and potential for conflict high if Western powers continue to play favorites and inflate economic values through commodities and other resources
Exactly !

If Western powers continue to manipulate the local politics for the benefit of the western powers and their colonial structure, there will be everlasting turmoil in the region.

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