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Aaron747
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 3:18 pm

Francoflier wrote:
I'm now anxiously waiting for those Republicans to go after the abnormally high infant mortality rate in the US with the same rage they are going after abortion, since they really care about the children lives and all that...


I am also waiting for them to voraciously cop onto the need for sustainability and climate impact reduction, since they are suddenly so interested in the ‘scientific’ definition of life.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 3:21 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Finally: "You can oppose abortion but don't stop someone else from getting one". This makes absolutely zero sense: That's like saying "you can oppose racial discrimination but don't stop others from doing it". We think abortion is bad because a human being who has no voice is being hurt. We are not going against abortion to come after you for not sharing our morals, the whole point of our struggle is to protect the lives of unborn children.


That is a false dilemma. The main difference between our point of view is that I don't think as a fetus as human life, not as being a child, just potential on human life. A fetus can't function without its mother, a human being can. And that makes it a personal choice of the women.
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Pyrex
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 3:22 pm

Francoflier wrote:
I'm now anxiously waiting for those Republicans to go after the abnormally high infant mortality rate in the US with the same rage they are going after abortion, since they really care about the children lives and all that...


That is what the wall is for. It is always funny when Europeans try to compare demographic statistics like infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. as if the two populations were at all comparable. Would be curious to see what those numbers would look like if instead of the Mediterranean Sea and the Bosphorus Straight, Europe had a 1,000 mile long land border with Africa and the Middle East.
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 3:24 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
I'm now anxiously waiting for those Republicans to go after the abnormally high infant mortality rate in the US with the same rage they are going after abortion, since they really care about the children lives and all that...


That is what the wall is for. It is always funny when Europeans try to compare demographic statistics like infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. as if the two populations were at all comparable. Would be curious to see what those numbers would look like if instead of the Mediterranean Sea and the Bosphorus Straight, Europe had a 1,000 mile long land border with Africa and the Middle East.


Not sure what you are trying to say here?
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Aaron747
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 3:56 pm

Pro-life as a movement needs to be re-labeled anti-choice, so long as the argument is centered on limiting individual liberty and life choices. If pro-lifers really claim to be interested in a scientifically honest position on ‘life’, they need to consistently define what life is, and when human life in particular is recognizable. It’s time to use the immortal words or Carl Sagan again:

Those who assert a "right to life" are for (at most) not just any kind of life, but for--particularly and uniquely—human life. So they too, like pro-choicers, must decide what distinguishes a human being from other animals and when, during gestation, the uniquely human qualities--whatever they are--emerge.

Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of our species, hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not human beings, of course. However, it could be argued that neither is a fertilized egg.

In some animals, an egg develops into a healthy adult without benefit of a sperm cell. But not, so far as we know, among humans. A sperm and an unfertilized egg jointly comprise the full genetic blueprint for a human being. Under certain circumstances, after fertilization, they can develop into a baby. But most fertilized eggs are spontaneously miscarried. Development into a baby is by no means guaranteed. Neither a sperm and egg separately, nor a fertilized egg, is more than a potential baby or a potential adult. So if a sperm and egg are as human as the fertilized egg produced by their union, and if it is murder to destroy a fertilized egg--despite the fact that it's only potentially a baby--why isn't it murder to destroy a sperm or an egg?

Hundreds of millions of sperm cells (top speed with tails lashing: five inches per hour) are produced in an average human ejaculation. A healthy young man can produce in a week or two enough spermatozoa to double the human population of the Earth. So is masturbation mass murder? How about nocturnal emissions or just plain sex? When the unfertilized egg is expelled each month, has someone died? Should we mourn all those spontaneous miscarriages? Many lower animals can be grown in a laboratory from a single body cell. Human cells can be cloned… In light of such cloning technology, would we be committing mass murder by destroying any potentially clonable cells? By shedding a drop of blood?

All human sperm and eggs are genetic halves of "potential" human beings. Should heroic efforts be made to save and preserve all of them, everywhere, because of this "potential"? Is failure to do so immoral or criminal? Of course, there's a difference between taking a life and failing to save it. And there's a big difference between the probability of survival of a sperm cell and that of a fertilized egg. But the absurdity of a corps of high-minded semen-preservers moves us to wonder whether a fertilized egg's mere "potential" to become a baby really does make destroying it murder.


http://2think.org/sagan_abortion.shtml
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Francoflier
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 4:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
I'm now anxiously waiting for those Republicans to go after the abnormally high infant mortality rate in the US with the same rage they are going after abortion, since they really care about the children lives and all that...


That is what the wall is for. It is always funny when Europeans try to compare demographic statistics like infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. as if the two populations were at all comparable. Would be curious to see what those numbers would look like if instead of the Mediterranean Sea and the Bosphorus Straight, Europe had a 1,000 mile long land border with Africa and the Middle East.


Not sure what you are trying to say here?


I believe he is trying to blame infant mortality on the immigrants, and insinuating that the difference between infant mortality rate in the US and Europe is due to the fact that Europe has no immigration from poorer countries? Also apparently implying that a wall would in fact curb illegal immigration which mostly happens through visa overstays and would solve all of the US' problems?

I mean, I don't know. That level of delusion and twisted mental gymnastics is a bit hard to follow.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
mham001
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 4:25 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
—by what metric is is California last in education?



K-12 ranks perennially in the bottom 5, generally jostling with Mississippi for position - but does rank among the highest in spending. I'm not looking it up again, be my guest.

Francoflier wrote:

I believe he is trying to blame infant mortality on the immigrants, and insinuating that the difference between infant mortality rate in the US and Europe is due to the fact that Europe has no immigration from poorer countries? Also apparently implying that a wall would in fact curb illegal immigration which mostly happens through visa overstays and would solve all of the US' problems?

I mean, I don't know. That level of delusion and twisted mental gymnastics is a bit hard to follow.


Much of the difference is due to different reporting standards. Many countries report premature births as stillborn, while the US they are counted as 'born' and then dead.

But while you are here, can you tell us the abortion laws in your country?
 
BN747
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 4:36 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
An interesting thought, that I'll wager is more than likely an unshakeable fact.

I bet every Pro-lifer is ALSO a Pro-Death penalty supporter.

The ultimate in hypocrisy...they deserve a unique motto. It should be... ALL life is valuable, until it ISN'T.


There can be no greater representation of hypcrisy than that.

BN747

No. All life is valuable until it is directly responsible for deliberately harm to another human being. A fetus is a person who has not deliberately harmed anyone.


All that is 'saying' is..'as long as you as your hands are clean (and fetus' don't have hands) you can live, if you harm or hurt another, you are subject to death'...

The problem with that is, those who hold virulent 'Anti-Death penalty' occupy the same pedestal as the 'Pro-Life at all Cost' crowd. No way to ever bridge that divide.

And screw any state laws arrangement (due to cultural differences), because some nutjob zealous religious prosecutor (out to make a name for himself) would mount a case to prosecute a female resident who ventured out of state for the procedure once she returned...opening a can of worms/Supreme Court challenge - forcing a decision on just how far the reach of government on a citizen can be.

BN747
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Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 6:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Finally: "You can oppose abortion but don't stop someone else from getting one". This makes absolutely zero sense: That's like saying "you can oppose racial discrimination but don't stop others from doing it". We think abortion is bad because a human being who has no voice is being hurt. We are not going against abortion to come after you for not sharing our morals, the whole point of our struggle is to protect the lives of unborn children.


That is a false dilemma. The main difference between our point of view is that I don't think as a fetus as human life, not as being a child, just potential on human life. A fetus can't function without its mother, a human being can. And that makes it a personal choice of the women.

A newborn can’t function without its mother, or ar least a surrogate. Time to rethink your logic.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 6:25 pm

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Finally: "You can oppose abortion but don't stop someone else from getting one". This makes absolutely zero sense: That's like saying "you can oppose racial discrimination but don't stop others from doing it". We think abortion is bad because a human being who has no voice is being hurt. We are not going against abortion to come after you for not sharing our morals, the whole point of our struggle is to protect the lives of unborn children.


That is a false dilemma. The main difference between our point of view is that I don't think as a fetus as human life, not as being a child, just potential on human life. A fetus can't function without its mother, a human being can. And that makes it a personal choice of the women.

A newborn can’t function without its mother, or ar least a surrogate. Time to rethink your logic.


Brilliant, you are the first one to make an argument, and put in the counter-argument at the same time. :lol:

But seriously, this is exactly the argument, a baby needs someone to take care of him/her but it doesn't necessarily have to be its mother. With a fetus, it needs to be the mother (to be). That's the difference and its quite a big difference.
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 6:31 pm

jdstJD wrote:
I have never met a woman who has had an abortion (and I’ve actually not met many) who was not fundamentally changed and sorrowful for having terminated their pregnancy, whether they terminated it because they just didn’t want to go forward with the pregnancy or they had to terminate it for health reasons for the fetus or the mother. Abortions are not something any woman takes lightly so it really angers me when people label people who are against abortions “pro-life”, as though people who do not want abortion to be illegal are somehow anti-life or pro-death. It’s not that simple. These are very difficult decisions that affect women and men who are partners or women for the rest of their lives and no one should have the right to castigate someone for terminating a pregnancy when they have no knowledge of their reason for doing so. If it is a moral or religious issue for those who have abortions then God will deal with it with that person. No one else has the right to.


Thank you to put in this perspective, it is good to take this to the core: abortion is never an easy option, it is very personal and the consequences of a full term pregnancy are taken into account.
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speedbird52
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 9:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is a false dilemma. The main difference between our point of view is that I don't think as a fetus as human life, not as being a child, just potential on human life. A fetus can't function without its mother, a human being can. And that makes it a personal choice of the women.

A newborn can’t function without its mother, or ar least a surrogate. Time to rethink your logic.


Brilliant, you are the first one to make an argument, and put in the counter-argument at the same time. :lol:

But seriously, this is exactly the argument, a baby needs someone to take care of him/her but it doesn't necessarily have to be its mother. With a fetus, it needs to be the mother (to be). That's the difference and its quite a big difference.

The fact that a newborn needs another human being to function is proof that needing its mother to stay alive does not make a fetus inhuman.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 9:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Finally: "You can oppose abortion but don't stop someone else from getting one". This makes absolutely zero sense: That's like saying "you can oppose racial discrimination but don't stop others from doing it". We think abortion is bad because a human being who has no voice is being hurt. We are not going against abortion to come after you for not sharing our morals, the whole point of our struggle is to protect the lives of unborn children.


That is a false dilemma. The main difference between our point of view is that I don't think as a fetus as human life, not as being a child, just potential on human life. A fetus can't function without its mother, a human being can. And that makes it a personal choice of the women.

This isn't a false dilemma, you just summarized the entire abortion debate
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 10:14 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
A newborn can’t function without its mother, or ar least a surrogate. Time to rethink your logic.


Brilliant, you are the first one to make an argument, and put in the counter-argument at the same time. :lol:

But seriously, this is exactly the argument, a baby needs someone to take care of him/her but it doesn't necessarily have to be its mother. With a fetus, it needs to be the mother (to be). That's the difference and its quite a big difference.

The fact that a newborn needs another human being to function is proof that needing its mother to stay alive does not make a fetus inhuman.


No, but it does make it a parasite, Being against abortion, you are placing the right of the fetus potentially to live - he isn't able to sustain life without anyone but its host .- above the life of the mother.
BTW by far the most abortions take place in the first trimester, or at least in the Netherlands, so there is, of course, a lot of emotions involved, but nowhere near a full grown viable baby.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
speedbird52
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 10:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Brilliant, you are the first one to make an argument, and put in the counter-argument at the same time. :lol:

But seriously, this is exactly the argument, a baby needs someone to take care of him/her but it doesn't necessarily have to be its mother. With a fetus, it needs to be the mother (to be). That's the difference and its quite a big difference.

The fact that a newborn needs another human being to function is proof that needing its mother to stay alive does not make a fetus inhuman.


No, but it does make it a parasite, Being against abortion, you are placing the right of the fetus potentially to live - he isn't able to sustain life without anyone but its host .- above the life of the mother.
BTW by far the most abortions take place in the first trimester, or at least in the Netherlands, so there is, of course, a lot of emotions involved, but nowhere near a full grown viable baby.

Calling a human being a parasite is borderline sociopathic in my mind. You mention most abortions take place in the first trimester. (Also true in the US) Should we ban all abortions that don't save the life of the mother after the first trimester?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 10:29 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Calling a human being a parasite is borderline sociopathic in my mind.


I agree and I didn't.

speedbird52 wrote:
You mention most abortions take place in the first trimester. (Also true in the US) Should we ban all abortions that don't save the life of the mother after the first trimester?


No, the line in the Netherlands is 20 or 21 weeks and that is a good line I think, the rationale behind this is simple, sustainable life at 24 weeks with a margin of a few weeks. Furthermore, we have the 20weeks echo which will tell something about the health of the fetus.

Will you agree that every abortion is something the woman (and man hopefully) thinks about and isn't something taking lightly.
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speedbird52
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 10:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Calling a human being a parasite is borderline sociopathic in my mind.


I agree and I didn't.

speedbird52 wrote:
You mention most abortions take place in the first trimester. (Also true in the US) Should we ban all abortions that don't save the life of the mother after the first trimester?


No, the line in the Netherlands is 20 or 21 weeks and that is a good line I think, the rationale behind this is simple, sustainable life at 24 weeks with a margin of a few weeks. Furthermore, we have the 20weeks echo which will tell something about the health of the fetus.

Will you agree that every abortion is something the woman (and man hopefully) thinks about and isn't something taking lightly.

I will also agree that plenty of parents who murder their born children think about it and don't take it lightly. I've been suicidal in the past and definitely did not think about it lightly, would that have made it okay if I killed myself? No of course it wouldn't. Something being difficult doesn't make it right
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sun May 19, 2019 11:30 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Calling a human being a parasite is borderline sociopathic in my mind.


I agree and I didn't.

speedbird52 wrote:
You mention most abortions take place in the first trimester. (Also true in the US) Should we ban all abortions that don't save the life of the mother after the first trimester?


No, the line in the Netherlands is 20 or 21 weeks and that is a good line I think, the rationale behind this is simple, sustainable life at 24 weeks with a margin of a few weeks. Furthermore, we have the 20weeks echo which will tell something about the health of the fetus.

Will you agree that every abortion is something the woman (and man hopefully) thinks about and isn't something taking lightly.

I will also agree that plenty of parents who murder their born children think about it and don't take it lightly. I've been suicidal in the past and definitely did not think about it lightly, would that have made it okay if I killed myself? No of course it wouldn't. Something being difficult doesn't make it right


‘Right’ is highly subjective and requires treating totality of societal views in similar fashion to a scientific process - if all can agree on something, it is a universal truth - like murder, theft, etc is basically agreed upon by most societies. That is exactly what Roe v. Wade asked - in a complex and nuanced issue, what is the best compromise? Women and physicians state a need to have this option for self-determination and medical reasons. Opponents state a need to ban any instance on moral or faith-based reasons. OK, biology says there are viability and neural development reasons to disallow this option past 20-24 weeks. Since the extremes will never be ‘right’ according to the other side, the Roe decision established a neutral point that allows both needs to be in play. The fact opponents can’t accept this (or answer Carl Sagan’s questions about the ‘life’ argument posted above) says more about them than anything.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 12:04 am

mham001 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
—by what metric is is California last in education?



K-12 ranks perennially in the bottom 5, generally jostling with Mississippi for position - but does rank among the highest in spending. I'm not looking it up again, be my guest.

So you don't have a citation. Got it.

Francoflier wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Pyrex wrote:

That is what the wall is for. It is always funny when Europeans try to compare demographic statistics like infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. as if the two populations were at all comparable. Would be curious to see what those numbers would look like if instead of the Mediterranean Sea and the Bosphorus Straight, Europe had a 1,000 mile long land border with Africa and the Middle East.


Not sure what you are trying to say here?


I believe he is trying to blame infant mortality on the immigrants, and insinuating that the difference between infant mortality rate in the US and Europe is due to the fact that Europe has no immigration from poorer countries? Also apparently implying that a wall would in fact curb illegal immigration which mostly happens through visa overstays and would solve all of the US' problems?

I mean, I don't know. That level of delusion and twisted mental gymnastics is a bit hard to follow.

Pyrex: Europe is a moose-lamb kalifate
Also Pyrex: but not when it comes to any demographic stats that show the US far worse
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 12:17 am

Anti-abortion laws are thinly veiled attempts to put women back into their place, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and the property of men.

It's the same as laws passed that are blatant attacks on black people.

The South is a medieval cesspool run by white dudes who believe they are superior to everyone else by being born white and male, and have a strong sense of entitlement to being treated as being superior.

Anyone that supports this can go f*ck theirselves. Literally. Women in the south should just boycott having sex. These dudes don't deserve to get laid.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 12:46 am

Jouhou wrote:
Anti-abortion laws are thinly veiled attempts to put women back into their place, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and the property of men.

It's the same as laws passed that are blatant attacks on black people.

The South is a medieval cesspool run by white dudes who believe they are superior to everyone else by being born white and male, and have a strong sense of entitlement to being treated as being superior.

Anyone that supports this can go f*ck theirselves. Literally. Women in the south should just boycott having sex. These dudes don't deserve to get laid.


That would only help to a point - it isn’t just the South and some of these guys have been rejected enough owing to their own personality defects that they join the online incel army and claim they hate women enough to permanently reject sex and companionship. They are all over the world and completely insane.
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seb146
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 12:48 am

speedbird52 wrote:
Personally I don't think abortion is a right: Scientifically, life begins at conception. Whenever I ask an abortionist to explain to me the biological difference between a fetus and an infant I always receive the same tired arguments: "It's a clump of cells!" "It can't think!" "It's a parasite!" And my personal favorite: "YOU'RE A MAN HOW DARE YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS" whilst at the same time retweeting a man who shares their views on the subject. My rebuttal for those three main points is the following: We are all a clump of cells. People in non permanent comas also can't think, but we don't kill them if they cost too much for a family to take care of. Also, in the case of a late term abortion, the fetus very much can think. And finally, an infant is every bit as parasitic as a fetus. One day without its mother and there is a very good chance it would die.

The arguments I have described are a good day. Generally I am hit with a number of red herring arguments such as "Well you claim to be pro life but then you support war, and guns, and oppose public healthcare." Not true, I am a social democrat and hold the exact opposite views described. "xyz anti abortion state did xyz bad thing so that means if they support abortion it must be bad". A very common argument used by a lot of sides in a lot of political debates. I am 100% sure this is a logical fallacy but can't put my finger on exactly which one. Just because someone does a lot of bad things, does not mean that everything they do is automatically bad. By that logic, everyone we shouldn't drive VWs because the Nazis drove VWs. "Stop forcing your religion on me". I never knew my religions position on abortion until very recently. Turns out my religion is more relaxed about abortion than me. Finally: "You can oppose abortion but don't stop someone else from getting one". This makes absolutely zero sense: That's like saying "you can oppose racial discrimination but don't stop others from doing it". We think abortion is bad because a human being who has no voice is being hurt. We are not going against abortion to come after you for not sharing our morals, the whole point of our struggle is to protect the lives of unborn children.

Look, all you need to do to completely destroy anything pro lifers say is concretely and scientifically prove to us that a fetus is not a person. Or, clearly define the exact moment that a fetus stops being a "clump of cells" and becomes a person. Until you do that, no one has any reason to believe that a fetus is any less of a person than a new born infant.

Also: Stop bringing up exceptional situations like rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is in danger, unless you want to argue that abortion is only okay in certain circumstances. Otherwise, it is a red herring intended to distract from the original question of why a fetus doesn't count as a person.

Honestly red herring summarizes the entire "pro choice" movement.


When was the last time a fetus got a job? Spoke? Voted? Got its own food? Walked? Comparing a fetus to an infant is apples and oranges. Inserting late term abortion is a red herring.
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speedbird52
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 12:52 am

seb146 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Personally I don't think abortion is a right: Scientifically, life begins at conception. Whenever I ask an abortionist to explain to me the biological difference between a fetus and an infant I always receive the same tired arguments: "It's a clump of cells!" "It can't think!" "It's a parasite!" And my personal favorite: "YOU'RE A MAN HOW DARE YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS" whilst at the same time retweeting a man who shares their views on the subject. My rebuttal for those three main points is the following: We are all a clump of cells. People in non permanent comas also can't think, but we don't kill them if they cost too much for a family to take care of. Also, in the case of a late term abortion, the fetus very much can think. And finally, an infant is every bit as parasitic as a fetus. One day without its mother and there is a very good chance it would die.

The arguments I have described are a good day. Generally I am hit with a number of red herring arguments such as "Well you claim to be pro life but then you support war, and guns, and oppose public healthcare." Not true, I am a social democrat and hold the exact opposite views described. "xyz anti abortion state did xyz bad thing so that means if they support abortion it must be bad". A very common argument used by a lot of sides in a lot of political debates. I am 100% sure this is a logical fallacy but can't put my finger on exactly which one. Just because someone does a lot of bad things, does not mean that everything they do is automatically bad. By that logic, everyone we shouldn't drive VWs because the Nazis drove VWs. "Stop forcing your religion on me". I never knew my religions position on abortion until very recently. Turns out my religion is more relaxed about abortion than me. Finally: "You can oppose abortion but don't stop someone else from getting one". This makes absolutely zero sense: That's like saying "you can oppose racial discrimination but don't stop others from doing it". We think abortion is bad because a human being who has no voice is being hurt. We are not going against abortion to come after you for not sharing our morals, the whole point of our struggle is to protect the lives of unborn children.

Look, all you need to do to completely destroy anything pro lifers say is concretely and scientifically prove to us that a fetus is not a person. Or, clearly define the exact moment that a fetus stops being a "clump of cells" and becomes a person. Until you do that, no one has any reason to believe that a fetus is any less of a person than a new born infant.

Also: Stop bringing up exceptional situations like rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is in danger, unless you want to argue that abortion is only okay in certain circumstances. Otherwise, it is a red herring intended to distract from the original question of why a fetus doesn't count as a person.

Honestly red herring summarizes the entire "pro choice" movement.


When was the last time a fetus got a job? Spoke? Voted? Got its own food? Walked? Comparing a fetus to an infant is apples and oranges. Inserting late term abortion is a red herring.

Sorry I will right a reply to this post later. My 2 month old baby just got back from his job at the supermarket and I need to help him unload the groceries. After that we are going to the ballot box.
 
MDGLongBeach
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 3:18 pm

I don’t typically speak on these political threads, but here’s my opinion on abortion:

It should be legal under these circumstances:
- rape
- extreme concern for mothers health
- any situation but has to be under 6 weeks (because 6-7 weeks is when the heart starts pumping)

In any other case, it should be illegal, that’s when you’re killing a living entity. Just my say. I’m a republican by the way and think that these strict anti abortion laws are loony.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 3:27 pm

MDGLongBeach wrote:
I don’t typically speak on these political threads, but here’s my opinion on abortion:

It should be legal under these circumstances:
- rape
- extreme concern for mothers health
- any situation but has to be under 6 weeks (because 6-7 weeks is when the heart starts pumping)

In any other case, it should be illegal, that’s when you’re killing a living entity. Just my say. I’m a republican by the way and think that these strict anti abortion laws are loony.


I'm wondering if anyone saying this actually understands how long it takes to be able to take a pregnancy test that shows a positive?

It's about 6 weeks. So yes, if you want an abortion it has to be before there is any method of finding out we're pregnant! Oh joy.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 105
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 3:58 pm

Jouhou wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:
I don’t typically speak on these political threads, but here’s my opinion on abortion:

It should be legal under these circumstances:
- rape
- extreme concern for mothers health
- any situation but has to be under 6 weeks (because 6-7 weeks is when the heart starts pumping)

In any other case, it should be illegal, that’s when you’re killing a living entity. Just my say. I’m a republican by the way and think that these strict anti abortion laws are loony.


I'm wondering if anyone saying this actually understands how long it takes to be able to take a pregnancy test that shows a positive?

It's about 6 weeks. So yes, if you want an abortion it has to be before there is any method of finding out we're pregnant! Oh joy.


https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_a ... tatistics/

This site compiles CDC facts into charts. According to this, 52% of abortions occur at or before 7 weeks.... so women must know they’re pregnant by then, contrary to what you’d said. 6 weeks can be the very start the beginning of the heartbeat, and 7 weeks is more of the later side of the beginning of the heartbeat.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 4:05 pm

MDGLongBeach wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:
I don’t typically speak on these political threads, but here’s my opinion on abortion:

It should be legal under these circumstances:
- rape
- extreme concern for mothers health
- any situation but has to be under 6 weeks (because 6-7 weeks is when the heart starts pumping)

In any other case, it should be illegal, that’s when you’re killing a living entity. Just my say. I’m a republican by the way and think that these strict anti abortion laws are loony.


I'm wondering if anyone saying this actually understands how long it takes to be able to take a pregnancy test that shows a positive?

It's about 6 weeks. So yes, if you want an abortion it has to be before there is any method of finding out we're pregnant! Oh joy.


https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_a ... tatistics/

This site compiles CDC facts into charts. According to this, 52% of abortions occur at or before 7 weeks.... so women must know they’re pregnant by then, contrary to what you’d said.


Most women get an abortion as soon as they find out they are pregnant (if the pregnancy is one where they know they can't handle it), which is around then. There's a weird misconception that women just procrastinate on this or change their minds. Usually it's actually a matter of freaking out after a missed period and waiting until a test can be taken.

That other 48% or so? Probably using some form of contraception and are assuming the missed period must be some hormonal fluctuation, like what many women have. Not everyone has a period that happens like clockwork.

That happened to me, fortunately I found out 2 months in after mis-carrying. Not a pleasant experience.
 
seb146
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 4:11 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Personally I don't think abortion is a right: Scientifically, life begins at conception. Whenever I ask an abortionist to explain to me the biological difference between a fetus and an infant I always receive the same tired arguments: "It's a clump of cells!" "It can't think!" "It's a parasite!" And my personal favorite: "YOU'RE A MAN HOW DARE YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS" whilst at the same time retweeting a man who shares their views on the subject. My rebuttal for those three main points is the following: We are all a clump of cells. People in non permanent comas also can't think, but we don't kill them if they cost too much for a family to take care of. Also, in the case of a late term abortion, the fetus very much can think. And finally, an infant is every bit as parasitic as a fetus. One day without its mother and there is a very good chance it would die.

The arguments I have described are a good day. Generally I am hit with a number of red herring arguments such as "Well you claim to be pro life but then you support war, and guns, and oppose public healthcare." Not true, I am a social democrat and hold the exact opposite views described. "xyz anti abortion state did xyz bad thing so that means if they support abortion it must be bad". A very common argument used by a lot of sides in a lot of political debates. I am 100% sure this is a logical fallacy but can't put my finger on exactly which one. Just because someone does a lot of bad things, does not mean that everything they do is automatically bad. By that logic, everyone we shouldn't drive VWs because the Nazis drove VWs. "Stop forcing your religion on me". I never knew my religions position on abortion until very recently. Turns out my religion is more relaxed about abortion than me. Finally: "You can oppose abortion but don't stop someone else from getting one". This makes absolutely zero sense: That's like saying "you can oppose racial discrimination but don't stop others from doing it". We think abortion is bad because a human being who has no voice is being hurt. We are not going against abortion to come after you for not sharing our morals, the whole point of our struggle is to protect the lives of unborn children.

Look, all you need to do to completely destroy anything pro lifers say is concretely and scientifically prove to us that a fetus is not a person. Or, clearly define the exact moment that a fetus stops being a "clump of cells" and becomes a person. Until you do that, no one has any reason to believe that a fetus is any less of a person than a new born infant.

Also: Stop bringing up exceptional situations like rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is in danger, unless you want to argue that abortion is only okay in certain circumstances. Otherwise, it is a red herring intended to distract from the original question of why a fetus doesn't count as a person.

Honestly red herring summarizes the entire "pro choice" movement.


When was the last time a fetus got a job? Spoke? Voted? Got its own food? Walked? Comparing a fetus to an infant is apples and oranges. Inserting late term abortion is a red herring.

Sorry I will right a reply to this post later. My 2 month old baby just got back from his job at the supermarket and I need to help him unload the groceries. After that we are going to the ballot box.


Again: apples and oranges. Just because there is a heartbeat does not mean the fetus is capable of anything other than a beating heart.

Why should you decide for every woman anyway?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 4:37 pm

It should also be mention that any belief that the heart is the organ that houses the "soul" aka human consciousness is a level of understanding that is at the ancient Egypt level when it comes to understanding biology and human anatomy. It's the brain! Wtf.

Also at week 6 it's still an embryo, not a fetus. At ten weeks it becomes a fetus and has developed a nervous system more advanced than a jellyfish. At 6 weeks? Not even a jellyfish.

But hey, we already know it's not about protecting "life" anyways, "pro-life" people. Just because you scream it doesn't make us believe you. We know it's dishonest because you give not a care in the world about babies after they are born. You don't care about eggs fertilized outside of the woman's body- it's all about putting women in their place.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 4:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

When was the last time a fetus got a job? Spoke? Voted? Got its own food? Walked? Comparing a fetus to an infant is apples and oranges. Inserting late term abortion is a red herring.

Sorry I will right a reply to this post later. My 2 month old baby just got back from his job at the supermarket and I need to help him unload the groceries. After that we are going to the ballot box.


Again: apples and oranges. Just because there is a heartbeat does not mean the fetus is capable of anything other than a beating heart.

Why should you decide for every woman anyway?

Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't murder their born child? Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't commit suicide?
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 4:49 pm

seb146 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

When was the last time a fetus got a job? Spoke? Voted? Got its own food? Walked? Comparing a fetus to an infant is apples and oranges. Inserting late term abortion is a red herring.

Sorry I will right a reply to this post later. My 2 month old baby just got back from his job at the supermarket and I need to help him unload the groceries. After that we are going to the ballot box.


Again: apples and oranges. Just because there is a heartbeat does not mean the fetus is capable of anything other than a beating heart.

I’m pro choice, but even I can admit that you just got seriously owned.

The problem with these debates is that it boils down to a subjective judgment call. Nobody seems to respect that reality. There are pros and cons to BOTH arguments.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 5:01 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Sorry I will right a reply to this post later. My 2 month old baby just got back from his job at the supermarket and I need to help him unload the groceries. After that we are going to the ballot box.


Again: apples and oranges. Just because there is a heartbeat does not mean the fetus is capable of anything other than a beating heart.

Why should you decide for every woman anyway?

Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't murder their born child? Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't commit suicide?


Why do pro life people not care about born children? Why do they not support health care for born children? Why do they rant about the WIC program- about how these babies are clearly just leaching off the government! What did they ever do to deserve government support? Get a job, baby!

Why are conservatives unconcerned about maternal mortality rates and infant mortality rates, as is on display in this thread? Are you saying maybe you don't actually care about "life"?
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 5:11 pm

Jouhou wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Again: apples and oranges. Just because there is a heartbeat does not mean the fetus is capable of anything other than a beating heart.

Why should you decide for every woman anyway?

Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't murder their born child? Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't commit suicide?


Why do pro life people not care about born children? Why do they not support health care for born children? Why do they rant about the WIC program- about how these babies are clearly just leaching off the government! What did they ever do to deserve government support? Get a job, baby!

Why are conservatives unconcerned about maternal mortality rates and infant mortality rates, as is on display in this thread? Are you saying maybe you don't actually care about "life"?

Again, I’m pro choice, but I can see hyperbole when it happens. Lots of what you have said is simply untrue. It certainly doesn’t apply to the 33% of Democrats who are pro life.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 5:19 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't murder their born child? Why should I decide for every woman if they should or shouldn't commit suicide?


Why do pro life people not care about born children? Why do they not support health care for born children? Why do they rant about the WIC program- about how these babies are clearly just leaching off the government! What did they ever do to deserve government support? Get a job, baby!

Why are conservatives unconcerned about maternal mortality rates and infant mortality rates, as is on display in this thread? Are you saying maybe you don't actually care about "life"?

Again, I’m pro choice, but I can see hyperbole when it happens. Lots of what you have said is simply untrue. It certainly doesn’t apply to the 33% of Democrats who are pro life.



And then we get into how most "pro-life" people think abortion is acceptable even in the second trimester when it comes to Incest, rape, and medical reasons. Which is... you know... The exact reason why second trimester abortions happen. Maybe women going through these things shouldn't be required to go through the indignity of going through a court to get their medical procedure approved? Especially if their life depends on it and the procedure needs to happen immediately.

Btw removing an already dead fetus from a mother is still considered an "abortion" and it needs to happen immediately so the mother doesn't die of sepsis.

However back to the original point, the most vocal advocates of abortion bans also advocate for taking away any government support from mothers and children. That "hyperbole" is something we all see every day of our lives as we hear conservatives bitch about seeing a woman use food stamps and/or WIC, but she has a cell phone, how dare she!!! It's not like you are pretty much required to have a phone if you're hunting for a job or any other basic life functions.
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 5:30 pm

Jouhou wrote:

And then we get into how most "pro-life" people think abortion is acceptable even in the second trimester when it comes to Incest, rape, and medical reasons. Which is... you know... The exact reason why second trimester abortions happen.

It’s hard to embrace your argument when you constantly speak in absolute terms. Second trimester abortions happen for a multitude of reasons. The reason you have is prevalent, but is not the only reason.


Jouhou wrote:
Btw removing an already dead fetus from a mother is still considered an "abortion" and it needs to happen immediately so the mother doesn't die of sepsis.

I have never heard this claim (that it is legally an abortion) before. Source?

Jouhou wrote:
However back to the original point, the most vocal advocates of abortion bans also advocate for taking away any government support from mothers and children.

Generally speaking, that is patently false. (There may be an isolated wing nut out there, I suppose.)
Conservatives do not have a platform of eliminating welfare, and the 33% of Democrats who are pro life don’t either. I may disagree on the AMOUNT they want to provide, but they aren’t saying that it should disappear entirely. So more hyperbole from you. Sigh.

Jouhou wrote:
That "hyperbole" is something we all see every day of our lives as we hear conservatives bitch about seeing a woman use food stamps and/or WIC, but she has a cell phone, how dare she!!! It's not like you are pretty much required to have a phone if you're hunting for a job or any other basic life functions.

No, but you don’t need an iPhone X. You don’t need to be using food stamps to buy Red Bull either.
Food stamps is a great program, but like any program it is subject to abuse from time to time.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 5:46 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

And then we get into how most "pro-life" people think abortion is acceptable even in the second trimester when it comes to Incest, rape, and medical reasons. Which is... you know... The exact reason why second trimester abortions happen.

It’s hard to embrace your argument when you constantly speak in absolute terms. Second trimester abortions happen for a multitude of reasons. The reason you have is prevalent, but is not the only reason.


Jouhou wrote:
Btw removing an already dead fetus from a mother is still considered an "abortion" and it needs to happen immediately so the mother doesn't die of sepsis.

I have never heard this claim (that it is legally an abortion) before. Source?

Jouhou wrote:
However back to the original point, the most vocal advocates of abortion bans also advocate for taking away any government support from mothers and children.

Generally speaking, that is patently false. (There may be an isolated wing nut out there, I suppose.)
Conservatives do not have a platform of eliminating welfare, and the 33% of Democrats who are pro life don’t either. I may disagree on the AMOUNT they want to provide, but they aren’t saying that it should disappear entirely. So more hyperbole from you. Sigh.

Jouhou wrote:
That "hyperbole" is something we all see every day of our lives as we hear conservatives bitch about seeing a woman use food stamps and/or WIC, but she has a cell phone, how dare she!!! It's not like you are pretty much required to have a phone if you're hunting for a job or any other basic life functions.

No, but you don’t need an iPhone X. You don’t need to be using food stamps to buy Red Bull either.
Food stamps is a great program, but like any program it is subject to abuse from time to time.


Yeah, let's start with that last statement. Energy drinks are classified as supplements, not covered by food stamps. This seems to be at the FDA level, so I'm sure it's not just here where that applies. So that's just another conservative lie. Now let's say you really see someone using an expensive phone. Ever hear of a f*cking gift? Not that it's any of your business what they have as personal possessions or how they obtained them.

Also on the definition of abortion, you know what a miscarriage is called in medical terminology? A spontaneous abortion. It's literally a terminated pregnancy for ANY reason. https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main ... lekey=2091

And considering the physical consequences of second trimester abortions, the people who think women just do it for fun or something are out of their damn minds. You ate too much lead paint as a kid, get out.
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 5:54 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Yeah, let's start with that last statement. Energy drinks are classified as supplements, not covered by food stamps. This seems to be at the FDA level, so I'm sure it's not just here where that applies. So that's just another conservative lie.


Please stop posting false information.

Energy drinks such as Red Bull have been available for purchase with food stamps since 2013, when companies making them began changing their labels to list "nutrition facts" instead of "supplement facts." Critics have tried to have them removed from eligibility, but as long as they are classified as a food item, they are likely to stay.
https://www.wisebread.com/heres-what-yo ... -with-snap

Jouhou wrote:
Also on the definition of abortion, you know what a miscarriage is called in medical terminology? A spontaneous abortion. It's literally a terminated pregnancy for ANY reason. https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main ... lekey=2091

You didn't answer my question. My question was, is the removal of a dead fetus legally considered to be an abortion. Because that is the only issue that is relevant to this thread. Please answer my question.

Jouhou wrote:
And considering the physical consequences of second trimester abortions, the people who think women just do it for fun or something are out of their damn minds.

Literally nobody said that in this thread. Enough with the hyperbole and appeals to emotion.

Jouhou wrote:
You ate too much lead paint as a kid, get out.

I'm trying to have a respectful conversation with you. There is no need for that tone.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 6:08 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Yeah, let's start with that last statement. Energy drinks are classified as supplements, not covered by food stamps. This seems to be at the FDA level, so I'm sure it's not just here where that applies. So that's just another conservative lie. Now let's say you really see someone using an expensive phone. Ever hear of a f*cking gift? Not that it's any of your business what they have as personal possessions or how they obtained them.


Please stop posting false information.

Energy drinks such as Red Bull have been available for purchase with food stamps since 2013, when companies making them began changing their labels to list "nutrition facts" instead of "supplement facts." Critics have tried to have them removed from eligibility, but as long as they are classified as a food item, they are likely to stay.
https://www.wisebread.com/heres-what-yo ... -with-snap

Jouhou wrote:
Also on the definition of abortion, you know what a miscarriage is called in medical terminology? A spontaneous abortion. It's literally a terminated pregnancy for ANY reason. https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main ... lekey=2091

You didn't answer my question. My question was, is the removal of a dead fetus legally considered to be an abortion. Because that is the only issue that is relevant to this thread. Please answer my question.

Jouhou wrote:
And considering the physical consequences of second trimester abortions, the people who think women just do it for fun or something are out of their damn minds.

Literally nobody said that in this thread. Enough with the hyperbole and appeals to emotion.

Jouhou wrote:
You ate too much lead paint as a kid, get out.

I'm trying to have a respectful conversation with you. There is no need for that tone.


I explained it to you, the definition of abortion is *any* expulsion of the contents of a woman's uterus. The "abortion" debate is about induced abortion. A dead fetus without a miscarriage is called a "missed abortion". The solution? An induced abortion.

Second trimester? Have some cdc statisics

The majority of abortions in 2015 took place early in gestation: 91.1% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.6%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation.


Is it not clear the further along a woman is, the more urgent her reasons are??? It's not a pleasant experience.
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 6:13 pm

Jouhou wrote:
I explained it to you, the definition of abortion is *any* expulsion of the contents of a woman's uterus. The "abortion" debate is about induced abortion. A dead fetus without a miscarriage is called a "missed abortion". The solution? An induced abortion.

I get it. You have explained the medical definition of an abortion. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion. I will ask you now for a third time, is the removal of a dead fetus legally considered to be an abortion? Or put another way, are you aware of any laws whatsoever that treat the removal of a dead fetus exactly the same as a live fetus?

You are the one who made the claim. I'm merely asking you to back it up.

Jouhou wrote:
Second trimester? Have some cdc statisics

The majority of abortions in 2015 took place early in gestation: 91.1% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.6%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation.


Is it not clear the further along a woman is, the more urgent her reasons are??? It's not a pleasant experience.

This is your evidence that conservatives think that women undergo second trimester abortions "just for fun?" If so, that would be a fail. And of course it doesn't even address the 33% of Democrats who are pro life.

Respectfully, as a pro choice advocate, this type of argumentation is why people don't take us seriously. It's okay to recognize that abortion is an issue with a lot of moral ambiguity. It doesn't make your position wrong. If anything, it makes it more respectable because it shows that you gave it some earnest thought.
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 6:50 pm

Shhhh.... Don't tell the anti-abortion folks that embryos are routinely thrown in the garbage at fertility clinics.
712 722 732 734 737 738 741 742 744 752 762 772 A310 DC91 DC93 DC94 DC1030 DC1040 F100 MD82 MD83
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 6:54 pm

And don't tell the anti-abortion folks that 95% of all human pregnancies are naturally aborted (miscarried). The vast majority of pregnancies are lost due to genetics issues, host incompatibilities, and so on, long before the women realize they're pregnant.
712 722 732 734 737 738 741 742 744 752 762 772 A310 DC91 DC93 DC94 DC1030 DC1040 F100 MD82 MD83
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 7:30 pm

EstherLouise wrote:
And don't tell the anti-abortion folks that 95% of all human pregnancies are naturally aborted (miscarried). The vast majority of pregnancies are lost due to genetics issues, host incompatibilities, and so on, long before the women realize they're pregnant.

The people who have religious objections to abortion don't have any problem with what you said because it is "God's will." So I'm not really sure what your point is here.
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Mon May 20, 2019 7:33 pm

EstherLouise wrote:
Shhhh.... Don't tell the anti-abortion folks that embryos are routinely thrown in the garbage at fertility clinics.

The Alabama law specifically exempts IVF embryos. They took the time to write this into the law. So (1) it is not a secret as you suggest; and (2) they seem to be fine with it.
 
seb146
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 6:27 am

It is also worth noting that those who cheer these "right to life" restrictions also do nothing to stop mass shootings. You know: life is sacred and all....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 8:16 am

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I explained it to you, the definition of abortion is *any* expulsion of the contents of a woman's uterus. The "abortion" debate is about induced abortion. A dead fetus without a miscarriage is called a "missed abortion". The solution? An induced abortion.

I get it. You have explained the medical definition of an abortion. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion. I will ask you now for a third time, is the removal of a dead fetus legally considered to be an abortion? Or put another way, are you aware of any laws whatsoever that treat the removal of a dead fetus exactly the same as a live fetus?

You are the one who made the claim. I'm merely asking you to back it up.

Jouhou wrote:
Second trimester? Have some cdc statisics

The majority of abortions in 2015 took place early in gestation: 91.1% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.6%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation.


Is it not clear the further along a woman is, the more urgent her reasons are??? It's not a pleasant experience.

This is your evidence that conservatives think that women undergo second trimester abortions "just for fun?" If so, that would be a fail. And of course it doesn't even address the 33% of Democrats who are pro life.

Respectfully, as a pro choice advocate, this type of argumentation is why people don't take us seriously. It's okay to recognize that abortion is an issue with a lot of moral ambiguity. It doesn't make your position wrong. If anything, it makes it more respectable because it shows that you gave it some earnest thought.


There isn't a difference between a medical "induced abortion" and a legal one. It's still an induced abortion. Especially since "abortion" doesn't mean "kill fetus" by definition. It means "expel contents of uterus" in relation to the termination of a pregnancy whether natural or not.

Let me state again, abortion doesn't mean what you apparently think it does and no, legislators don't get to reinvent the English language.
Last edited by Jouhou on Tue May 21, 2019 8:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
winginit
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 8:19 am

mham001 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
—by what metric is is California last in education?



K-12 ranks perennially in the bottom 5, generally jostling with Mississippi for position - but does rank among the highest in spending. I'm not looking it up again, be my guest.


It doesn't though, so how about go ahead and cite your source or just, you know, stop spreading false information.

Source

Be better at this.
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 10:18 am

Jouhou wrote:
There isn't a difference between a medical "induced abortion" and a legal one.

That’s simply not true. The removal of a dead fetus is not, legally speaking, an abortion.

Jouhou wrote:
Especially since "abortion" doesn't mean "kill fetus" by definition.

Wrong again. Under the legal definition there must be a intentional termination of something that could potentially be born alive at some point in the future. Stop focusing on irrelevant medical definitions when the only thing pertinent to this discussion is the LEGAL definition.

Jouhou wrote:
Let me state again, abortion doesn't mean what you apparently think it does and no, legislators don't get to reinvent the English language.

You can state it all you want, but that doesn’t make it true. Legislators get to define terms within statutes, and do so all of the time.

Let’s look at actual legal authority, shall we? Here is a definition from an actual court opinion authored by a judge:
"A person commits an abortion when he uses an instrument, medicine, drug or other substance with the intent to procure a miscarriage of any woman."

So, no, that judge did not consider the removal of a fetus that died of natural causes to be abortion since doing so would not “procure a miscarriage.”
Source: https://scholar.google.ca/scholar_case? ... as_sdt=2,5

Are you aware of a single medical provider who has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that died of natural causes from a person’s body? (Spoiler alert: You aren’t because you have made a strawman argument.)

Is it asking too much for you to dispense with the strawman so we can get back to a substantive discussion?
 
seb146
Posts: 19830
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 2:16 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Especially since "abortion" doesn't mean "kill fetus" by definition.

Wrong again. Under the legal definition there must be a intentional termination of something that could potentially be born alive at some point in the future. Stop focusing on irrelevant medical definitions when the only thing pertinent to this discussion is the LEGAL definition.


So, according to your "legal" definition, Magog, a spontaneous abortion is grounds for prosecution. A woman on her way to her check up and is in an accident resulting in termination is grounds for prosecution. I think I already know the answer but how do you feel about ectopic pregnancy?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Magog
Posts: 785
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 2:22 pm

seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Especially since "abortion" doesn't mean "kill fetus" by definition.

Wrong again. Under the legal definition there must be a intentional termination of something that could potentially be born alive at some point in the future. Stop focusing on irrelevant medical definitions when the only thing pertinent to this discussion is the LEGAL definition.


So, according to your "legal" definition, Magog, a spontaneous abortion is grounds for prosecution. A woman on her way to her check up and is in an accident resulting in termination is grounds for prosecution. I think I already know the answer but how do you feel about ectopic pregnancy?

More straw men! This one is even more frustrating because it doesn’t understand what I’ve said.

Uh... no. The legal definition doesn’t encompass spontaneous abortions. Did you even read it? A woman who is in a car accident has not intentionally terminated her pregnancy. But you knew that.

Let’s read it again: “A person commits an abortion when he uses an instrument, medicine, drug or other substance with the intent to procure a miscarriage of any woman."

I highlighted the portion you failed to comprehend.

Nobody has been prosecuted for a spontaneous abortion. Nobody has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that died of natural causes or because an act of God. Nobody has been prosecuted because of an ectopic pregnancy.

If your argument is reduced to specious straw men like this, you’ve clearly lost the debate.
Last edited by Magog on Tue May 21, 2019 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 2:24 pm

I bet these laws have nothing to do with "saving lives", but everything to do with White, Straight, Heterosexual Men (WSHM) playing boss over women. And since the majority (62%) of abortions are performed on African-American women (https://www.wsfa.com/2019/05/17/alabama ... look-data/), it seems it really is a racist attack: WSHM cannot play boss anymore because of the Cilvil Rights laws, so they try to find another angle to attack non-WSHM.
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