• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 2:29 pm

Magog wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I bet these laws have nothing to do with "saving lives", but everything to do with White, Straight, Heterosexual Men (WSHM) playing boss over women. And since the majority (62%) of abortions are performed on African-American women (https://www.wsfa.com/2019/05/17/alabama ... look-data/), it seems it really is a racist attack: WSHM cannot play boss anymore because of the Cilvil Rights laws, so they try to find another angle to attack non-WSHM.

You just lost that bet.

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18629644/ ... ic-opinion

As for your second argument, are you saying that racists actually want MORE black babies? You really didn’t think that one through.


And I am sure Alabama women are being beaten by their husbands to say what their husbands want them to say. Real poll or fake poll.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 3:32 pm

People keep ignoring the fact that it is legal to kill humans. Fully formed, grown humans. You can kill them under many circumstances. So this is not that different from that. Yes it is different, (duh) but the fact remains that we have approved of killing of humans for a long time. So if killing a born human with citizenship and rights and all that is OK under circumstances, allowances can be made here as well. For unformed, non-citizen humans/fetuses.

You may not like it. It is certainly gross seeming if you really sit and think about it. Terrible and undesired. But it doesn't change the fact that we are OK with killing humans at times. There is no absolute, we just disagree on those times.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 4:00 pm

How does "adoption" come into the debate about abortion? It seems you never hear about it in this context.
If the "unborn" is unwanted and there is an option for adoption and the mother willing, why not go that road?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 4:32 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
How does "adoption" come into the debate about abortion? It seems you never hear about it in this context.
If the "unborn" is unwanted and there is an option for adoption and the mother willing, why not go that road?


That is ALWAYS a great option. Preferred over most any other for an "unwanted" baby.
I think that would be a terrific thing to do for true anti-abortion/pro-lifers: fully fund prenatal and birthing care for women who decide they wish to not keep their baby. Heck might be a great time to include education options. (Of course I suspect they are afraid/beleive that a bunch of women would just lay back and take the free ride and just pump out babies for the perks.)

And this option is offered by Planned Parenthood when person seeks their services.

I actually think that one "universal healthcare" option that should always be available is prenatal and birthing care. It can only help improve how things are and improve the chances of a successful birth and health baby. But for some reason some people are against it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 6:13 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Wrong again. Under the legal definition there must be a intentional termination of something that could potentially be born alive at some point in the future. Stop focusing on irrelevant medical definitions when the only thing pertinent to this discussion is the LEGAL definition.


So, according to your "legal" definition, Magog, a spontaneous abortion is grounds for prosecution. A woman on her way to her check up and is in an accident resulting in termination is grounds for prosecution. I think I already know the answer but how do you feel about ectopic pregnancy?

More straw men! This one is even more frustrating because it doesn’t understand what I’ve said.

Uh... no. The legal definition doesn’t encompass spontaneous abortions. Did you even read it? A woman who is in a car accident has not intentionally terminated her pregnancy. But you knew that.

Let’s read it again: “A person commits an abortion when he uses an instrument, medicine, drug or other substance with the intent to procure a miscarriage of any woman."

I highlighted the portion you failed to comprehend.

Nobody has been prosecuted for a spontaneous abortion. Nobody has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that died of natural causes or because an act of God. Nobody has been prosecuted because of an ectopic pregnancy.

If your argument is reduced to specious straw men like this, you’ve clearly lost the debate.


So you just proved by quoting wording that an induced abortion after a fetus/embryo is dead is in fact the same as one if its "alive", legally. I wasn't going to look up the wording of infuriatingly ignorant lawmakers. The "induced" part is the key...
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Tue May 21, 2019 11:55 pm

I said that I was pro choice.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 12:30 am

Women need to sue their fetuses for trespassing and assault. If fetuses are people, then women just need to revoke permission for them to be literally inside their bodies.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 12:49 am

Magog wrote:
I said that I was pro choice.


ok, I asked why are you pro-choice?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 10:50 am

Jouhou wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So, according to your "legal" definition, Magog, a spontaneous abortion is grounds for prosecution. A woman on her way to her check up and is in an accident resulting in termination is grounds for prosecution. I think I already know the answer but how do you feel about ectopic pregnancy?

More straw men! This one is even more frustrating because it doesn’t understand what I’ve said.

Uh... no. The legal definition doesn’t encompass spontaneous abortions. Did you even read it? A woman who is in a car accident has not intentionally terminated her pregnancy. But you knew that.

Let’s read it again: “A person commits an abortion when he uses an instrument, medicine, drug or other substance with the intent to procure a miscarriage of any woman."

I highlighted the portion you failed to comprehend.

Nobody has been prosecuted for a spontaneous abortion. Nobody has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that died of natural causes or because an act of God. Nobody has been prosecuted because of an ectopic pregnancy.

If your argument is reduced to specious straw men like this, you’ve clearly lost the debate.


So you just proved by quoting wording that an induced abortion after a fetus/embryo is dead is in fact the same as one if its "alive", legally. I wasn't going to look up the wording of infuriatingly ignorant lawmakers. The "induced" part is the key...

You misunderstood what I wrote.

That said, can you name a single person who has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that has died of natural causes or an act of God? Just one? Your argument is the very definition of a straw man.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2785
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 1:51 pm

Abstinence is a crap way to avoid becoming preggers, it's in the bible, god gets right in there and does his business in women even if they are abstinent.

Fred
Image
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 5:36 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Magog wrote:
More straw men! This one is even more frustrating because it doesn’t understand what I’ve said.

Uh... no. The legal definition doesn’t encompass spontaneous abortions. Did you even read it? A woman who is in a car accident has not intentionally terminated her pregnancy. But you knew that.

Let’s read it again: “A person commits an abortion when he uses an instrument, medicine, drug or other substance with the intent to procure a miscarriage of any woman."

I highlighted the portion you failed to comprehend.

Nobody has been prosecuted for a spontaneous abortion. Nobody has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that died of natural causes or because an act of God. Nobody has been prosecuted because of an ectopic pregnancy.

If your argument is reduced to specious straw men like this, you’ve clearly lost the debate.


So you just proved by quoting wording that an induced abortion after a fetus/embryo is dead is in fact the same as one if its "alive", legally. I wasn't going to look up the wording of infuriatingly ignorant lawmakers. The "induced" part is the key...

You misunderstood what I wrote.

That said, can you name a single person who has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that has died of natural causes or an act of God? Just one? Your argument is the very definition of a straw man.


No, because laws outlawing abortion have been deemed unconstitutional since long before I was born. How am I supposed to know someone "prosecuted" for this? I just know you have to go through the same hoops to get the same procedure and they can't "confirm" the embryo/fetus is dead until it's out.

I mean ffs I have to have a pregnancy test ( Not optional) every time I miss my depo shot window to make sure I'm not pregnant which is f*cking ridiculous but that's how society treats us even when we have rights. We're still uteruses with legs.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 5:42 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Magog wrote:

That said, can you name a single person who has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that has died of natural causes or an act of God? Just one? Your argument is the very definition of a straw man.


No, because laws outlawing abortion have been deemed unconstitutional since long before I was born.

Not true. Many states have laws on the books prohibiting later term abortions. I think that I realize some of your confusion here. You appear to think that Roe v. Wade mandated that ALL abortions be legal. That is not at all what Roe v. Wade did.

Jouhou wrote:
How am I supposed to know someone "prosecuted" for this?

Gotcha. It was a straw man argument.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 5:56 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Magog wrote:

That said, can you name a single person who has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that has died of natural causes or an act of God? Just one? Your argument is the very definition of a straw man.


No, because laws outlawing abortion have been deemed unconstitutional since long before I was born.

Not true. Many states have laws on the books prohibiting later term abortions. I think that I realize some of your confusion here. You appear to think that Roe v. Wade mandated that ALL abortions be legal. That is not at all what Roe v. Wade did.

Jouhou wrote:
How am I supposed to know someone "prosecuted" for this?

Gotcha. It was a straw man argument.


You mean your argument? Yes. But we know you don't argue anything in good faith here. Can you list me a single woman "prosecuted" in the US for getting an abortion at all?

Btw "miscarriage" has the same caveat as the word "abortion", it's still describing the expulsion of uterine contents rather than the actual death of living tissue.
 
mham001
Posts: 5508
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 7:22 pm

winginit wrote:
mham001 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
—by what metric is is California last in education?



K-12 ranks perennially in the bottom 5, generally jostling with Mississippi for position - but does rank among the highest in spending. I'm not looking it up again, be my guest.


It doesn't though, so how about go ahead and cite your source or just, you know, stop spreading false information.

Source

Be better at this.


I did. in detail with a pretty map. And admitted where California actually stood. Turned out I was much more wrong about Mississippi and the SE in general though. The moderator deleted it without notice and nobody responds to the question why. However, an opponent can write "Go F*ck yourself" and it stays with no repercussion. There can be no moderate discussion with this behavior. I'm sorry, I tried.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 8:12 pm

mham001 wrote:
I did. in detail with a pretty map. [...] The moderator deleted it without notice

I noticed that, I was looking for it the other day and... nope, gone (I thought I must have seen it in another thread). My only guess is it was done for being off topic, but hell we do lots of off topic stuff in any thread (this reply could be considered off topic).

Anyway, I was looking for it because I wanted to look into the data and where they got it. Can you maybe post the link?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17387
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Wed May 22, 2019 10:25 pm

Tugger wrote:
mham001 wrote:
I did. in detail with a pretty map. [...] The moderator deleted it without notice

I noticed that, I was looking for it the other day and... nope, gone (I thought I must have seen it in another thread). My only guess is it was done for being off topic, but hell we do lots of off topic stuff in any thread (this reply could be considered off topic).

Anyway, I was looking for it because I wanted to look into the data and where they got it. Can you maybe post the link?

Tugg

You said Alabama scores higher on the SAT than California, leaving out the fact that only 5% of Alabamans participate in the SAT, versus 60% of Californians. It’s a totally bogus statistic, just so we are crystal clear—never mind the ranting and raving you added to it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
Veigar
Posts: 419
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 5:56 am

While I am on the fence with this whole pro life vs pro choice shebabble, I don't think the viability of the fetus is a good argument for pro choice. Technically a lot of things are not viable. People in comas are not viable, brain dead people are not viable, heck, if you want to push it, you sleeping means you are not viable. Should they all be killed? Of course not. But that's the issue - where do you draw the line? You can make comparisons like this all over.

That being said I do not have any standing on this actual debate.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 2:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
I said that I was pro choice.


ok, I asked why are you pro-choice?



Uhmmm, Magog, may I ask you why you don't want to answer this simple inviting question? Can't help to think that you might not be so pro-choice as you say you are. Could that be it?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
seb146
Posts: 20195
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:15 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Magog wrote:

That said, can you name a single person who has been prosecuted for removing a fetus that has died of natural causes or an act of God? Just one? Your argument is the very definition of a straw man.


No, because laws outlawing abortion have been deemed unconstitutional since long before I was born.

Not true. Many states have laws on the books prohibiting later term abortions. I think that I realize some of your confusion here. You appear to think that Roe v. Wade mandated that ALL abortions be legal. That is not at all what Roe v. Wade did.

Jouhou wrote:
How am I supposed to know someone "prosecuted" for this?

Gotcha. It was a straw man argument.


Magog, you keep screaming "straw man!" every time anyone disagrees with you. Why are you anti-choice types also "small government" types who want the government deciding what women should do with their families?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:19 pm

Veigar wrote:
While I am on the fence with this whole pro life vs pro choice shebabble, I don't think the viability of the fetus is a good argument for pro choice. Technically a lot of things are not viable. People in comas are not viable, brain dead people are not viable, heck, if you want to push it, you sleeping means you are not viable. Should they all be killed? Of course not. But that's the issue - where do you draw the line? You can make comparisons like this all over.

That being said I do not have any standing on this actual debate.


It is not about the choice itself, it is about WHO is making the choice: Is it the government deciding or the person(s) involved?
You want the government to decide who lives or dies in a case of terminal brain damage? Or the family?
You want the government to decide who lives or dies in case of coma? Or the family?
You want the government to decide who lives or dies in case of a fetus? Or the woman?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8296
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:23 pm

Why has America become so black and white.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
I said that I was pro choice.


ok, I asked why are you pro-choice?



Uhmmm, Magog, may I ask you why you don't want to answer this simple inviting question? Can't help to think that you might not be so pro-choice as you say you are. Could that be it?


You do realize that Magog said "was", that is a past tense (versus "am") and so it is obvious Magog is not so any longer.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:27 pm

seb146 wrote:
Magog, you keep screaming "straw man!" every time anyone disagrees with you. Why are you anti-choice types also "small government" types who
want the government deciding what women should do with their families?

You got two things wrong.
1) I am pro-choice.
2) I only cried "straw man" at the argument that a doctor could be prosecuted for removing a fetus that had died of natural causes or an act of God. That is, indeed, a straw man argument since it can't happen under the recently passed laws and has never happened under existing law.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:30 pm

Magog wrote:
1) I am pro-choice.

Ahh there it is. I stand corrected. (I also dug back through other posts and found it as well)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
You do realize that Magog said "was", that is a past tense (versus "am") and so it is obvious Magog is not so any longer.

Tugg


You are wrong, see the other post of Magog.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:31 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog, you keep screaming "straw man!" every time anyone disagrees with you. Why are you anti-choice types also "small government" types who
want the government deciding what women should do with their families?

You got two things wrong.
1) I am pro-choice.


Why?!
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:32 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Why has America become so black and white.

Largely because there has been a massive shift to the left by Democrats.

It is illustrated nicely here:
https://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12 ... an-public/
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog, you keep screaming "straw man!" every time anyone disagrees with you. Why are you anti-choice types also "small government" types who
want the government deciding what women should do with their families?

You got two things wrong.
1) I am pro-choice.


Why?!

Just as with anything in life, I have weighed the pros and cons. That said, I fully appreciate that it is an issue with a tremendous amount of moral ambiguity.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:49 pm

Magog wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Why has America become so black and white.

Largely because there has been a massive shift to the left by Democrats.

It is illustrated nicely here:
https://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12 ... an-public/

Actually your link refutes your "largely" statement.
The proper wording would be "equally", as in: "Due to an equally large shift right and left by the Republicans and Democrats."

The magic is in the middle. When our society compromises and is willing to equally speak to each other and discuss issues and come to an agreement that does not wholly satisfy either side. Additionally this really only works when each side is willing to forego trumpeting things like "They lost and we won" or "We only want them to lose" etc. Work quietly and effectively together, in the backroom away from media (of all kinds) pressures as well in public (without calling the other side names etc.).

The question is though, when are we going to to be willing to go toward that?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 4:53 pm

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
You got two things wrong.
1) I am pro-choice.


Why?!

Just as with anything in life, I have weighed the pros and cons. That said, I fully appreciate that it is an issue with a tremendous amount of moral ambiguity.


Seriously man, why is it so difficult for you to take us in your train of thought in reaching the conclusion that you are ok with a woman having an abortion?
Here you say exactly nothing and yet you ask everyone else to explain their reasons and then you say, that isn't really an argument.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 5:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Why?!

Just as with anything in life, I have weighed the pros and cons. That said, I fully appreciate that it is an issue with a tremendous amount of moral ambiguity.


Seriously man, why is it so difficult for you to take us in your train of thought in reaching the conclusion that you are ok with a woman having an abortion?
Here you say exactly nothing and yet you ask everyone else to explain their reasons and then you say, that isn't really an argument.

It's not difficult. I just don't have any desire to. So move on.

There is a major difference between my pointing out a factual inaccuracy and your wanting to know my internal, subjective calculations.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 5:11 pm

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
Just as with anything in life, I have weighed the pros and cons. That said, I fully appreciate that it is an issue with a tremendous amount of moral ambiguity.


Seriously man, why is it so difficult for you to take us in your train of thought in reaching the conclusion that you are ok with a woman having an abortion?
Here you say exactly nothing and yet you ask everyone else to explain their reasons and then you say, that isn't really an argument.

It's not difficult. I just don't have any desire to. So move on.

There is a major difference between my pointing out a factual inaccuracy and your wanting to know my internal, subjective calculations.


Fine, then just indeed say: I do not want to share my opinion, but I am fine to criticize your opinions. I gave you my personal train of thought, which you very easily waved away. Then you should not be surprised I asked for yours, which you declined to answer.

I do not think that is a fair point of view, it is unbalanced between yourself and others. So perhaps something happens to you personally, which you do not want to share, not even in general terms, that is fine of course, but indeed I will not answer your request for more information anymore, sorry.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 5:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Fine, then just indeed say: I do not want to share my opinion, but I am fine to criticize your opinions. I gave you my personal train of thought, which you very easily waved away. Then you should not be surprised I asked for yours, which you declined to answer.

I haven't criticized anyone's opinion in this thread. I have only pointed out factual inaccuracies. I don't begrudge anyone's opinion in regard to this topic because, as I have consistently said, it is an issue with a tremendous amount of moral ambiguity.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 5:38 pm

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Fine, then just indeed say: I do not want to share my opinion, but I am fine to criticize your opinions. I gave you my personal train of thought, which you very easily waved away. Then you should not be surprised I asked for yours, which you declined to answer.

I haven't criticized anyone's opinion in this thread. I have only pointed out factual inaccuracies. I don't begrudge anyone's opinion in regard to this topic because, as I have consistently said, it is an issue with a tremendous amount of moral ambiguity.


Yes, you have. All opinionated, you might think it is fact, but as I have pointed out, your logic isn't logical and is nowhere near a fact.

Magog wrote:
A newborn can’t function without its mother, or ar least a surrogate. Time to rethink your logic.


Magog wrote:
I’m pro choice, but even I can admit that you just got seriously owned.

The problem with these debates is that it boils down to a subjective judgment call. Nobody seems to respect that reality. There are pros and cons to BOTH arguments.




Magog wrote:
I'm trying to have a respectful conversation with you. There is no need for that tone.


Blatantly false. You do not try to respect me or others, it is quite disrespectful the way you have presented yourself towards others. Criticizing everything, but give nowhere your own opinions. Wouldn't you agree.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 5:39 pm

Veigar wrote:
While I am on the fence with this whole pro life vs pro choice shebabble, I don't think the viability of the fetus is a good argument for pro choice. Technically a lot of things are not viable. People in comas are not viable, brain dead people are not viable, heck, if you want to push it, you sleeping means you are not viable. Should they all be killed? Of course not. But that's the issue - where do you draw the line? You can make comparisons like this all over.

That being said I do not have any standing on this actual debate.


A dead fetus in the mother will frequently get infected and cause sepsis in the mother. If it's suspected to be dead but there's no signs of infection yet and it hasn't triggered a miscarriage they'll actually wait to see if she will pass it naturally.

It's kind of like any dead organ in the body. If you leave it there, it will rot, become infected, and kill you.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 6:49 pm

The middle of the Democratic Party now owns the space that the Eisenhower, even much of the Reagan, Republican party used to occupy. There are genuine leftists amongst the Democrats but not all that many.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Veigar
Posts: 419
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 6:52 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Veigar wrote:
While I am on the fence with this whole pro life vs pro choice shebabble, I don't think the viability of the fetus is a good argument for pro choice. Technically a lot of things are not viable. People in comas are not viable, brain dead people are not viable, heck, if you want to push it, you sleeping means you are not viable. Should they all be killed? Of course not. But that's the issue - where do you draw the line? You can make comparisons like this all over.

That being said I do not have any standing on this actual debate.


It is not about the choice itself, it is about WHO is making the choice: Is it the government deciding or the person(s) involved?
You want the government to decide who lives or dies in a case of terminal brain damage? Or the family?
You want the government to decide who lives or dies in case of coma? Or the family?
You want the government to decide who lives or dies in case of a fetus? Or the woman?



I concur.

Don't know where to start with this, what to consider; there are too many variables (like should we treat abortions from rape victims differently from some random lady who decided she didn't feel like using protection) or what?

Seriously, it's all fog to me. But I really enjoy reading/listening to both viewpoints on this matter.
 
mham001
Posts: 5508
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 7:05 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
It’s a totally bogus statistic, just so we are crystal clear


Not nearly as much as you'd like the world to believe when you look at graduation rates, particularly the large disparity in minority graduations, you know, the types who actually took the tests? But i didn't know your opinion of accuracy was the basis of post deletion. Interesting.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15361
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 8:40 pm

I'm pro-choice, but also think abortion is wrong. I also believe Roe v. Wade is an example of bad law; it's social legislation pretending to be constitutional law, and I believe with these new laws popping up in an attempt to get SCOTUS to re-examine the decision, they'll find that the 14th Amendment doesn't apply after all.

Which won't mean abortion will be illegal - it will just send it back to the states to decide, which is probably how it should be. And being fully transparent, there will always be states like NY where abortion will always be legal, no matter what.

Unless, of course, SCOTUS decides to actually take up determining precisely when life begins. Then, all bets are off - because once you determine that life begins at X time, there'd be no going past that time, ever.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 9:06 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I'm pro-choice, but also think abortion is wrong.


On the surface, this seems to be at both ends of the spectrum. I, myself am pro-choice - it is the individual whom needs to decide - but I would have a hard time if my girlfriend would abort a fetus. But that is an individual and very private choice.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 9469
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 9:16 pm

Veigar wrote:
should we treat abortions from rape victims differently from some random lady who decided she didn't feel like using protection) or what?


Is there a fundamental difference between these two situations? I get the difference between how they became pregnant but isn't the fundamental thing here that both fetuses are unwanted and if it is grown into a baby, society has to deal with this child, because their natural mothers don't want it with all the psychological consequences for the child. For me the question is why would anyone force such an unwanted child to be born?

I think it is too simplistic to say that a won=man didn't want to use protection and that's it. All kinds of reasons could lead to pregnancy, protection isn't 100% tide for instance.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 10:14 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Veigar wrote:
While I am on the fence with this whole pro life vs pro choice shebabble, I don't think the viability of the fetus is a good argument for pro choice. Technically a lot of things are not viable. People in comas are not viable, brain dead people are not viable, heck, if you want to push it, you sleeping means you are not viable. Should they all be killed? Of course not. But that's the issue - where do you draw the line? You can make comparisons like this all over.

That being said I do not have any standing on this actual debate.


A dead fetus in the mother will frequently get infected and cause sepsis in the mother. If it's suspected to be dead but there's no signs of infection yet and it hasn't triggered a miscarriage they'll actually wait to see if she will pass it naturally.

It's kind of like any dead organ in the body. If you leave it there, it will rot, become infected, and kill you.

I get it. That’s why nobody has ever been prosecuted for performing that procedure, nor will they be. So it was a straw man argument.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9262
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 11:20 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I'm pro-choice, but also think abortion is wrong. I also believe Roe v. Wade is an example of bad law; it's social legislation pretending to be constitutional law, and I believe with these new laws popping up in an attempt to get SCOTUS to re-examine the decision, they'll find that the 14th Amendment doesn't apply after all.

Which won't mean abortion will be illegal - it will just send it back to the states to decide, which is probably how it should be. And being fully transparent, there will always be states like NY where abortion will always be legal, no matter what.

Unless, of course, SCOTUS decides to actually take up determining precisely when life begins. Then, all bets are off - because once you determine that life begins at X time, there'd be no going past that time, ever.

I am very much similar in my view however I always come down the fact that woman is the citizen with the rights. Period. If/when an operation is needed for life related issues, for the state to become involved is very suspect. Why allow boob jobs or penile enlargement, why not get involved with other operations? The simple fact is (to me) that a woman has and must have domain over her body. She has that right, she has rights granted by the Constitution. And I firmly believe that the USSC will find this as well, provided they rule on law and the constitutional aspect and not on their personal beliefs.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
seb146
Posts: 20195
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Thu May 23, 2019 11:58 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog, you keep screaming "straw man!" every time anyone disagrees with you. Why are you anti-choice types also "small government" types who
want the government deciding what women should do with their families?

You got two things wrong.
1) I am pro-choice.
2) I only cried "straw man" at the argument that a doctor could be prosecuted for removing a fetus that had died of natural causes or an act of God. That is, indeed, a straw man argument since it can't happen under the recently passed laws and has never happened under existing law.


Why are you defending the government trying to regulate women's reproductive organs?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15361
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 1:03 am

seb146 wrote:
Why are you defending the government trying to regulate women's reproductive organs?


As someone who is pro-choice, I'm really tired of this simplistic, disingenuous argument. This isn't a matter of wanting government to regulate a woman's body. Those who disagree with abortion - and I'm one of them, even though I don't believe it's my right to tell someone how to live their life - do so because they honestly believe you're ending a life.

As a liberal, I'm surprised you and others who share your views don't believe there should be a huge tax associated with having an abortion of a viable baby-to-be, as you're robbing society of a future tax-paying citizen. And as the Roberts court held with the ACA, Congress does have the power to impose taxes...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 1:33 am

seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog, you keep screaming "straw man!" every time anyone disagrees with you. Why are you anti-choice types also "small government" types who
want the government deciding what women should do with their families?

You got two things wrong.
1) I am pro-choice.
2) I only cried "straw man" at the argument that a doctor could be prosecuted for removing a fetus that had died of natural causes or an act of God. That is, indeed, a straw man argument since it can't happen under the recently passed laws and has never happened under existing law.


Why are you defending the government trying to regulate women's reproductive organs?

Did you miss the part where I said that I’m pro choice? It’s up above. That said, your statement fails to recognize the moral ambiguity with abortion. I could just as easily have said, “Why are you defending the murder of innocent children?” That doesn’t get us anywhere. You can’t change the reality that there are pros and cons to both sides of the issue.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 3:00 am

None after 28 weeks, you’re killing a survivable human at that point. I prefer abortion be illegal in all instances except for rape, incest and harm to the mother. All in all, I have trouble with the entire genesis of the whole thing being tied to eugenics. It’s quite disturbing. Given the staggering number of abortions in the last 50 years, one has to wonder how many Einstein’s were aborted. Consider those consequences.
Last edited by DL717 on Fri May 24, 2019 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8300
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 3:01 am

I don't mind abortions provided the laws actually support female accountability for their decisions made, which it doesn't currently. It is 100% the woman's decision to choose to abort. I just wish they would also balance out the law which allows for child support outside of wedlock. Because it is 100% her right, it is also 100% her responsibility to support her own choices herself without recourse to funds from the father because she chose to bring a foetus to term. Of course, if they have signed a marriage certificate that is different because that is a signed contract of support and commitment, but too many women entrap by deceit and then bludge for the rest of their lives until the financial ruin of the father. imprisonment for not paying and depression and potential suicide by the desperate man.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
N757ST
Posts: 703
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 3:02 am

Once again the Democrats and the republicans have both severely jumped the shark. Republicans are wrong to enact a 3 week limit (heartbeat) because many if not most people women won’t even know their pregnant, effectively banning abortion. The Democrats are removing all barriers to abortion including the ability to abort near or at full term. Why can’t both sides just use some common sense here? Allow abortions up to 24 weeks or so, about the time a fetus is viable. After that there has to be found a medical reason with the mother or child, and approval must be obtained from a medical professional for an abortion to be allowed. How is that not unreasonable to both sides?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15361
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 3:48 am

N757ST wrote:
Allow abortions up to 24 weeks or so, about the time a fetus is viable. After that there has to be found a medical reason with the mother or child, and approval must be obtained from a medical professional for an abortion to be allowed. How is that not unreasonable to both sides?


Those who want abortion on demand have a problem with it because continuous advances in medical science are not on their side; as those medical advances continue, the threshold for "viability" will be earlier and earlier. Remember, the one thing that keeps abortion "acceptable" to around half (give or take) the nation is limiting it to the first trimester; after that, support absolutely plummets off a cliff, and if there comes a time where doctors are able to claim a baby-to-be is viable at 15 weeks, that will be the new threshold, and so on.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: marcelh, meecrob, petertenthije, SanDiegoLover and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos