alfa164
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Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 12:26 am

"Turns out Russian collusion isn’t a "witch hunt hoax" after all. At least not in Austria."

It seems the leader of the Government's coalition - the far-right "Freedom Party" - was caught trying to sell access to a purported niece of a Russian oligarch. Faster that you could say "Michael Flynn", the Chancellor disowned his partners and called a snap election.

I predict chaos... although maybe not as much chaos as the deceptively-names "Freedom Party" has brought...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... he-footage
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kaitak
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 1:10 am

Is there a suspicion that the Russians (i.e. the government or agents tied to the govt) tried to destabilise the Austrian govt? I'm guessing, being right wing, the Russians wouldn't have thought too highly of the Austrian govt?
 
alfa164
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 2:05 am

kaitak wrote:
Is there a suspicion that the Russians (i.e. the government or agents tied to the govt) tried to destabilise the Austrian govt? I'm guessing, being right wing, the Russians wouldn't have thought too highly of the Austrian govt?


It is no secret that Russia has been working to destabilize European governments in general; there was an interesting comment in the article about ties between the far-right "Freedom Party" and Putin's United Russia party:

"The vice-chancellor’s apparent eagerness to accept Russian help raises further questions about the extent of the FPO’s longstanding ties to Russia. The far-right party has signed a formal cooperation agreement with President Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party."

What sort of "cooperation" they agreed to wasn't mentioned; in most Western countries, I would thing an agreement to "cooperate" with any party from another country would be looked upon with a jaundiced eye - even more so when Russia is involved.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 2:09 am

alfa164 wrote:
What sort of "cooperation" they agreed to wasn't mentioned; in most Western countries, I would thing an agreement to "cooperate" with any party from another country would be looked upon with a jaundiced eye - even more so when Russia is involved.


Isn’t this the most important - what this “cooperation” is? What does it involve? Any cooperation on voting? Any consultations? All it might involve is a few meetings a year. Well - let them meet, that would be ok. Bad talks are still better than a good standoff.
 
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Number6
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 7:39 am

The problem here in Austria is that the FPÖ is essentially a new nazi party, but with just enough distance from the real trouble makers to maintain a seemingly clear public face. In the recent months we’ve seen various scandals, from a FPÖ who released a poem I think that called all immigrants rats, to lots of other little things. Strache’s slip up though was the last straw. In the video, he and another official discuss with a supposed Oligarchs daughter her chances of ‘investing in Austria’ By purchasing the Kronen Zeitung newspaper, then turning the editorial to then FPÖ, removing certain ‘unfavourable’ journalists from the title, and then using that influence and cash donations (all via a secondary company to keep said donations secret) to get laws on press freedom changed to something more like Hungary.

Strache claims he drank too much and wanted to impress the pretty girl, which always happens when people get drunk, you know selling out your country. Either way, chancellor Kurz had no choice but to dissolve Parliament and launch fresh elections. What happens next though is anyone’s guess.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 10:47 am

Strache is a moron of epic proportions. I hope there are new elections and Kurz gets an absolute majority. Apparently some German comedian set this entire thing up. Hilarious.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 12:39 pm

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
What sort of "cooperation" they agreed to wasn't mentioned; in most Western countries, I would thing an agreement to "cooperate" with any party from another country would be looked upon with a jaundiced eye - even more so when Russia is involved.


Isn’t this the most important - what this “cooperation” is? What does it involve? Any cooperation on voting? Any consultations? All it might involve is a few meetings a year. Well - let them meet, that would be ok. Bad talks are still better than a good standoff.


Apparently, buying the biggest Austrian paper in order to get FPO elected.

Putin's Russia is helping all extreme right parties in Europe to destabilize Europe. And of course our Anrex80 is minimizing the Putin's Russias impact. Our Anrec is doing a great job in defending Putin's Russia.

Now the question is what we, in the EU, need to do to combat this Russian aggression. Going green will help a great deal and leave Putin's Russia for themselves. Russia without natural resources is nothing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 2:07 pm

Putin is trying to 'Make Russia Great Again', to take back the 'turf' they lost in the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, to end financial sanctions on the country placed by the USA and Europe due to their acts of war in the Ukraine and elsewhere and be a player in the Middle East.
The mass migrations of persons from Syria and Africa into Europe, the lack of good paying jobs, poor governments, increasing regulations, is allowing a rise of a reaction in the way of neo-Nazi, Nationalist and right wing parties. Russia is supporting those right wing parties as a way to get politicians more favorable to them and end sanctions. In the case of Austria, they had a post WWII History of being very soft as to political refugees, but now that has turned. As the USA has found out, allowing Russian influences in your government and politics is a horrible policy. Hopefully, reason will prevail, the RW extremists will fail due to their own incompetence or going too far and Russia trying too hard and getting caught (as happend in Austria).
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 9:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
What sort of "cooperation" they agreed to wasn't mentioned; in most Western countries, I would thing an agreement to "cooperate" with any party from another country would be looked upon with a jaundiced eye - even more so when Russia is involved.


Isn’t this the most important - what this “cooperation” is? What does it involve? Any cooperation on voting? Any consultations? All it might involve is a few meetings a year. Well - let them meet, that would be ok. Bad talks are still better than a good standoff.


Apparently, buying the biggest Austrian paper in order to get FPO elected.

Putin's Russia is helping all extreme right parties in Europe to destabilize Europe. And of course our Anrex80 is minimizing the Putin's Russias impact. Our Anrec is doing a great job in defending Putin's Russia.

Now the question is what we, in the EU, need to do to combat this Russian aggression. Going green will help a great deal and leave Putin's Russia for themselves. Russia without natural resources is nothing.


The Russian involvement is an uniteresting distraction in this case. The issue here are the undemocratic and unwestern, fascist, ideals that these nationalists still dream about. If they can still cook up plans like these, then which other policies from Nazi Germany and Facist Italy are they also willing to dig up?

That they chose the Russians in particular is a secondary issue. They would just as well have sold their country out to the Chinese, North Koreans, Americans or Saudis if any of those had been willing to do the job for them. There will always be countries and criminal organisations out there willing to undermine the European way of life, even if we "fix" the Russian issue.

The nationalist parties of Europe have a strong relationship these days. How many other groupings across Europe are working on similar plans? In Denmark the National Peoples Party has long been attempting to cut funding for the national broadcaster, claiming that they paint them in a bad light. Can't be without coincidence, as the news from there is pretty unbiased and thus naturally shows them in a bad light.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 9:59 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The Russian involvement is an uniteresting distraction in this case. The issue here are the undemocratic and unwestern, fascist, ideals that these nationalists still dream about. If they can still cook up plans like these, then which other policies from Nazi Germany and Facist Italy are they also willing to dig up?

That they chose the Russians in particular is a secondary issue. They would just as well have sold their country out to the Chinese, North Koreans, Americans or Saudis if any of those had been willing to do the job for them. There will always be countries and criminal organisations out there willing to undermine the European way of life, even if we "fix" the Russian issue.

The nationalist parties of Europe have a strong relationship these days. How many other groupings across Europe are working on similar plans? In Denmark the National Peoples Party has long been attempting to cut funding for the national broadcaster, claiming that they paint them in a bad light. Can't be without coincidence, as the news from there is pretty unbiased and thus naturally shows them in a bad light.


The Russian connection is interesting. We know that the extreme right in Europe is supported by the Putin regime. In Austria, he attended the wedding of the minister of foreign affairs, FPO.

Image

So selling put your country to anyone is bad, I agree with that of course and nobody will deny that. but there is also another party and that is Putin regime trying to destabilize the EU and that needs to be combated as well.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 10:28 pm

kaitak wrote:
Is there a suspicion that the Russians (i.e. the government or agents tied to the govt) tried to destabilise the Austrian govt? I'm guessing, being right wing, the Russians wouldn't have thought too highly of the Austrian govt?


No. Right now in fact there is a different suspicion - that this woman was from Latvia. If true - this makes this matter wholly intra-EU scandal. Russia has nothing to do here in that case, obviously. Then the claim goes against “free media” - they blew the scandal as “yet another Russian scandal” not even having bothered to investigate and fact-check. Too common for “free media” lately.
 
alfa164
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Sun May 19, 2019 11:47 pm

anrec80 wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Is there a suspicion that the Russians (i.e. the government or agents tied to the govt) tried to destabilise the Austrian govt? I'm guessing, being right wing, the Russians wouldn't have thought too highly of the Austrian govt?


No. Right now in fact there is a different suspicion - that this woman was from Latvia. If true - this makes this matter wholly intra-EU scandal. Russia has nothing to do here in that case, obviously. Then the claim goes against “free media” - they blew the scandal as “yet another Russian scandal” not even having bothered to investigate and fact-check. Too common for “free media” lately.


Is that the new Russian script? If it is, it is a weak attempt at distraction and is irrelevant.

These incidents do not happen in a vacuum; Strache and Gudenus thought they were dealing with the niece of a Russian oligarch - and bought her story because of their party's ties to Russia, and the sincere belief - justified, I am sure - that they could count on the Russians. If the actual operation was a "sting", so be it - it only proves the extent (and thus the believability, as shown by LilliPutin's patrons in Austria) of Russia's intrusions into Europe's democracies - and its intent to disrupt them.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 1:08 am

alfa164 wrote:
Is that the new Russian script? If it is, it is a weak attempt at distraction and is irrelevant.


There is no "script" anywhere. Don't you find this to be the most important question in this whole scandal - "who was this woman?". Was she really Russian or Latvian, or neither? And - who's behind her? Has someone ever established her identity before blowing scandals, so that European public gets accurate picture? If she has nothing to do with Russians, then this is not a Russian matter, this is a "one drunk idiot" matter. Places like Ibiza, Nice, Monte Carlo and the likes are stuffed with such con artists. We discussed one in New York recently here, who claimed to be German royalty.

alfa164 wrote:
These incidents do not happen in a vacuum; Strache and Gudenus thought they were dealing with the niece of a Russian oligarch - and bought her story because of their party's ties to Russia, and the sincere belief - justified, I am sure - that they could count on the Russians. If the actual operation was a "sting", so be it - it only proves the extent (and thus the believability, as shown by LilliPutin's patrons in Austria) of Russia's intrusions into Europe's democracies - and its intent to disrupt them.


If it's a "sting" - who set it up? I just don't think that Russian big businessmen need to send their nieces to bars of Ibiza to catch someone who is well known in Moscow. Why not just talk to him either in Moscow or Vienna? If the woman is indeed Latvian, and there are Latvian state services behind her who do not like Euro-skeptic parties (I do allow for such possibility) - then Latvia should not be setting such traps for politicians from allied countries, regardless of their beliefs. This is state sponsored internal affairs meddling, obviously.

In any case, our friend's job is to always be ready for such traps. If you are in public - don't drink. If you want to get drunk - it's OK too. Order a case of booze to your room and get wasted there, with curtains closed. When approached with some "not completely legal" stuff - turn her over to the law enforcement and have them check this "not completely legal" stuff.
 
anrec80
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 1:12 am

alfa164 wrote:
Strache and Gudenus thought they were dealing with the niece of a Russian oligarch - and bought her story because of their party's ties to Russia, and the sincere belief - justified, I am sure - that they could count on the Russians.


They bought her story because they were drunk, not for any other reason. What kind of talks would have been there with a Russian businessman himself in a private room, with everyone's being sober - it's a big question. And - Russia is not an oligarchic state, a Russian oligarch is a myth of 90s-early 2000s. They have some large businesses and ultra-wealthy people, just as anywhere else, but Russian leadership does not necessarily check with them on foreign policy decisions.
 
anrec80
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 1:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
Apparently, buying the biggest Austrian paper in order to get FPO elected.


At that stage - those were just drunken dreams. Nothing more. I just don't believe that Austria does not have any regulator or legislature that would just allow some foreign businessman to buy their major paper. And not even scrutinize the purchase by a local political party and ask "where is the $$$ from?".

Dutchy wrote:
Now the question is what we, in the EU, need to do to combat this Russian aggression. Going green will help a great deal and leave Putin's Russia for themselves. Russia without natural resources is nothing.


I'll even give you an advice - before you go combat "this Russian aggression", you need to determine first where the aggressor is. Because otherwise you will gear up for combating the aggression, go to the place where this supposed aggression is taking place, and won't find that the "aggressor" isn't even thinking of showing up. Then the "aggressor-to-be" just looks at you strangely and says "Is everything alright, friends? Can I help you anyhow?".

Look at one country neighboring to EU - its leader was doing nothing other than "combating aggression" for 5 years. For 5 years in a row every week there was yelling "next week the aggression will happen for sure!!!". As the result - blew the election with a result close to possible minimum for an acting leader.
Last edited by anrec80 on Mon May 20, 2019 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 1:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
In Austria, he attended the wedding of the minister of foreign affairs, FPO.


Yeah, Putin is a fun dude for sure. Got invited to the wedding - why not? :D :D :D
 
aviationaware
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 4:04 am

anrec80 wrote:
Don't you find this to be the most important question in this whole scandal - "who was this woman?". Was she really Russian or Latvian, or neither? And - who's behind her?


Pretty obvious that this was a trap set up by a German comedian called Jan Boehmermann. He obviously can't admit to it because that would probably be at least borderline illegal, but there isn't much doubt in my mind. Congratulations to him.
 
tu204
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 4:37 am

Surprised?

Yeah I agree that Russia is attempting to destabilise western governments. As they have been doing for the past couple decades towards Russia. What else do you guys expect?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 5:49 am

tu204 wrote:
Surprised?

Yeah I agree that Russia is attempting to destabilise western governments. As they have been doing for the past couple decades towards Russia. What else do you guys expect?


Then it is ok? And the west didn't, but what is the use of telling you that?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 7:35 am

And to those who are concerned about all "Russian meddling" - I would like actually to propose a solution. The solution would be for all countries on the continent (including EU, Russia, Ukraine, UK and all others in the area) to negotiate sort of "rules of engagement" - what things are allowed in interaction between institutions of countries, and which are not. Say, experience exchange visits and talks are OK. Financial support of political parties, individual politicians, media (be it loans, investments, or ownership) politically influential charities, "public opinion leaders" (such as bloggers) from outside of a country would be a NO-NO. Acceptance of such support would be an even bigger NO-NO.

The rules have to be clear and the same for everyone of course. They would be framed in an international agreement, ratified by all signatories and implemented in legislature of all nations. How does that sound?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 8:45 am

kaitak wrote:
Is there a suspicion that the Russians (i.e. the government or agents tied to the govt) tried to destabilise the Austrian govt? I'm guessing, being right wing, the Russians wouldn't have thought too highly of the Austrian govt?

This doesn’t sound plausible to me. As Dutchy and others pointed out:

Dutchy wrote:
Putin's Russia is helping all extreme right parties in Europe to destabilize Europe


anrec80 wrote:
No. Right now in fact there is a different suspicion - that this woman was from Latvia. If true - this makes this matter wholly intra-EU scandal.

It doesn’t matter where she came from. She is just a kind of an actress. And she even didn’t play it well. At the end Strache noticed her dirty toe nails and said that wouldn’t fit for such a person.
 
tu204
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 9:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Surprised?

Yeah I agree that Russia is attempting to destabilise western governments. As they have been doing for the past couple decades towards Russia. What else do you guys expect?


Then it is ok? And the west didn't, but what is the use of telling you that?


Yes, in this case it is OK

And the west did exactly that. 1996 elections to mention one such fact.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 10:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
The Russian connection is interesting. We know that the extreme right in Europe is supported by the Putin regime. In Austria, he attended the wedding of the minister of foreign affairs, FPO.

Image

So selling put your country to anyone is bad, I agree with that of course and nobody will deny that. but there is also another party and that is Putin regime trying to destabilize the EU and that needs to be combated as well.


No, it is utterly uninteresting. We know the Russians agenda, and so far we haven't found a solution to it. It is just pointless noise that hides the real issue here.

In the US, the blaming campaign against Russia has completely obscured the actual issue, lack of a clear, unbiased news outlets, and the incredible risk of using electronic ballot machines. They still haven't fixed those issues, and they will continue to get burned by it in upcoming elections.

In Austria (and the issues are likely also relevant for most of Europe), blame ultimately lies with a disturbing reliance on uncontrollable, privately owned media, as well as a political elite that has done nothing to curb the rise of these extremists (as usual, typically due to increasing social divide).

Blaming Russia brings us nowhere. They may be fully to blame for starting it, but now the cat is out of the bag, and there is no way to shut it back in. The underlying issues are available for all to exploit. Even if you somehow manage to get rid of Putin and make Russia a fully democratic, LGBT-loving, western oriented Swiss-style democracy, the loopholes will still be exploitable. Remove the Russians and you will just let the Saudis in instead. Even non-nation actors can exploit it. This doesn't require any specific skills that are exclusive to Russia. It literally just requires enough money. A drug cartel, a church or a shriveled up old Australian media-mogul/James Bond-villain can do it.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 2:46 pm

Well the only real solution is education, teach critical thinking and people won't fall for the first thing seen on facebook.

Easier said than done.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 4:20 pm

Aesma wrote:
Well the only real solution is education, teach critical thinking and people won't fall for the first thing seen on facebook.

Easier said than done.


Yes, that would be a permanent solution and the trust in the media should be restored.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Mon May 20, 2019 5:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
Well the only real solution is education, teach critical thinking and people won't fall for the first thing seen on facebook.

Easier said than done.


A very long term solution. A bit hard to reeducate the 2 or 3 generations that have already been corrupted, so we will just have to wait until they go extinct.
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Wed May 22, 2019 8:06 am

VSMUT wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Well the only real solution is education, teach critical thinking and people won't fall for the first thing seen on facebook.

Easier said than done.


A very long term solution. A bit hard to reeducate the 2 or 3 generations that have already been corrupted, so we will just have to wait until they go extinct.


The problem VSMUT, is that by then we will all probably be extinct having been nuked to oblivion...

A huge problem which has been pointed out is the media, be it mainstream TV/Radio/Newspapers and online media such as online "news" sites combined with Social media giving people the ability to share something instantly without having the time to digest if it really was true or not. Just look at the issues in Mexico, South America and India where "moral panics" are spreading like wildfire because of rumours spreading via Facebook and Whatsapp.

There is also a huge distrust of mainstream media from all sides, those who say it's biased to the left, those who say it's biased to the right and the problem is it really is hard for the more skeptical people to not spot an agenda. Look at the BBC for instance, they rely on the government approving funding for them via the highly controversial "TV License" (effectively a tax just to be able to watch TV, listen to the radio or watch TV online - even if you do not watch/listen to the BBC) and therefore people view them as at the mercy of the Government and pushing whatever agenda they are told to. In the case of the BBC and Brexit, there is the whole issue of "are they being honest or just BS-ing us?".

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Wed May 22, 2019 6:43 pm

FlyingColours wrote:
There is also a huge distrust of mainstream media from all sides, those who say it's biased to the left, those who say it's biased to the right and the problem is it really is hard for the more skeptical people to not spot an agenda. Look at the BBC for instance, they rely on the government approving funding for them via the highly controversial "TV License" (effectively a tax just to be able to watch TV, listen to the radio or watch TV online - even if you do not watch/listen to the BBC) and therefore people view them as at the mercy of the Government and pushing whatever agenda they are told to. In the case of the BBC and Brexit, there is the whole issue of "are they being honest or just BS-ing us?".

Phil
FlyingColours


Well, Phil, you actually contribute to the feeling of distrust by posting like this. Do you have any evidence that the BBC isn't been critical on the UK government?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Fri May 24, 2019 7:20 am

Give over, I said there is a feeling of distrust and that it is generally from all sides.

Regarding the evidence that the BBC isn't being critical of the UK Government, have you ever read the BBC News website? It's full of anti-government stories as well as anti-opposition stories, anti-brexit (but no pro-brexit stories - although I doubt there are many, if any but that's for the other thread) though the BBC (and other media outlets too) are blaming Brexit for pretty much everything going wrong (again, that's for the other thread).

What I was getting at is that perhaps it isn't paranoia to think that we are only seeing what "they" want us to see which is why people are turning to non-conventional means of sharing "news" which then allows manipulation of facts or just complete fabrication to get through to the masses.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Fri May 24, 2019 7:28 am

FlyingColours wrote:
Give over, I said there is a feeling of distrust and that it is generally from all sides.

Regarding the evidence that the BBC isn't being critical of the UK Government, have you ever read the BBC News website? It's full of anti-government stories as well as anti-opposition stories, anti-brexit (but no pro-brexit stories - although I doubt there are many, if any but that's for the other thread) though the BBC (and other media outlets too) are blaming Brexit for pretty much everything going wrong (again, that's for the other thread).

What I was getting at is that perhaps it isn't paranoia to think that we are only seeing what "they" want us to see which is why people are turning to non-conventional means of sharing "news" which then allows manipulation of facts or just complete fabrication to get through to the masses.

Phil
FlyingColours


Who are "they" Phil. That is the main question, seems like you are thinking about a conspiracy. I consider the newsmedia in the Netherlands trustworthy in facts and get the news out there from different perspectives. Of course there are left wing and right wing media, but that is with interpreting what the facts will lead to, totally different. Facts are facts and should be presented as such, opinions are opinions and should be argued and presented as such.

Like I said, why whould you add to an aerial of mistrust for the BBC like this? Don't get it, what are you trying to convince us of?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
moa999
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Re: Austrian Government Collapses over Russia Scandal

Fri May 24, 2019 8:03 am

Very similar to the sting on the far-right One Nation party in Australia by promising cash from the NRA.

I agree though that Russia (and to a lesser extent China) plays on the nature of democracy to create chaos in Western economies.

Middle East support results in refugees which ultimately flow to the West and tie the left and right in knots.

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos