BN747
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GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 1:38 am

GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/05/gop-de ... ning-nato/

Republicans in the United States Senate on Thursday unveiled a $750 billion Pentagon funding bill — that includes a provision aimed at stopping President Donald Trump from leaving the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

During the campaign and since his inauguration, Trump repeatedly attacked the alliance. With his public support for Russian President Vladimir Putin — who would benefit the most from the collapse of NATO — even Republicans are worried he may follow through on his threats to leave the treaty organization.


Hmmmm so I guess there are some of the Republican persuasion that are familiar with the original (and current) purpose/mission of NATO and realize that their fearless (as long as bodyguards are around) is very prone to following Putin's wishes and do something extremely stupid.

BN747
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Francoflier
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 1:45 am

Putin right now:

Image
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
dmg626
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 2:02 am

Too bad, the US should pull out, old outdated bases in Europe can be returned to their communities and used for economic development. Cost savings for all parties involved
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 2:18 am

dmg626 wrote:
Too bad, the US should pull out, old outdated bases in Europe can be returned to their communities and used for economic development. Cost savings for all parties involved


In an ideal world, that's a great idea.

But no ideal world exist besides in Tahiti and the French side of St. Martin.

The world that does exists has too many leaders and near-leaders chomping at the bit to be the next Putin, Little Kim, Dueterte, the idiot in Brazil and Italy just waiting to exact their plans to f*k some people up, Then add in the conflicts of the Middle East, the Turks vs Armenians, the Balkan differences, why not flare up the tribal conflicts in Africa and stir up the muslims in the southern Philippines ?

THAT is the world without deterrence.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 2:19 am

Francoflier wrote:
Putin right now:

Image



Right on! Only Maxwell Smart can match that!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 2:23 am

BN747 wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
Too bad, the US should pull out, old outdated bases in Europe can be returned to their communities and used for economic development. Cost savings for all parties involved


In an ideal world, that's a great idea.

But no ideal world exist besides in Tahiti and the French side of St. Martin.

The world that does exists has too many leaders and near-leaders chomping at the bit to be the next Putin, Little Kim, Dueterte, the idiot in Brazil and Italy just waiting to exact their plans to f*k some people up, Then add in the conflicts of the Middle East, the Turks vs Armenians, the Balkan differences, why not flare up the tribal conflicts in Africa and stir up the muslims in the southern Philippines ?

THAT is the world without deterrence.

BN747


So, the US should be going around whacking these bubbas? Really? I thought that was so last decade’s neo con job.

NATO was supposed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down and the Russians out. After 74 years and an EU economy second to the US’s; maybe the EU should pull their share.

GF
 
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 2:28 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BN747 wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
Too bad, the US should pull out, old outdated bases in Europe can be returned to their communities and used for economic development. Cost savings for all parties involved


In an ideal world, that's a great idea.

But no ideal world exist besides in Tahiti and the French side of St. Martin.

The world that does exists has too many leaders and near-leaders chomping at the bit to be the next Putin, Little Kim, Dueterte, the idiot in Brazil and Italy just waiting to exact their plans to f*k some people up, Then add in the conflicts of the Middle East, the Turks vs Armenians, the Balkan differences, why not flare up the tribal conflicts in Africa and stir up the muslims in the southern Philippines ?

THAT is the world without deterrence.

BN747


So, the US should be going around whacking these bubbas? Really? I thought that was so last decade’s neo con job.

NATO was supposed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down and the Russians out. After 74 years and an EU economy second to the US’s; maybe the EU should pull their share.

GF


Perhaps you 'd prefer the Chinese to be the world's policeman.

Or the Saudis?

Or Putin even?

Pick one.

Because in human affairs there must be a leader, humans aren't intelligent enough to fare without one.

You need a police in your community.
We need them in our counties.
We need them federally.

And we need one/them globally.

So...I ask again, WHO is your preferred choice?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 3:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BN747 wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
Too bad, the US should pull out, old outdated bases in Europe can be returned to their communities and used for economic development. Cost savings for all parties involved


In an ideal world, that's a great idea.

But no ideal world exist besides in Tahiti and the French side of St. Martin.

The world that does exists has too many leaders and near-leaders chomping at the bit to be the next Putin, Little Kim, Dueterte, the idiot in Brazil and Italy just waiting to exact their plans to f*k some people up, Then add in the conflicts of the Middle East, the Turks vs Armenians, the Balkan differences, why not flare up the tribal conflicts in Africa and stir up the muslims in the southern Philippines ?

THAT is the world without deterrence.

BN747


So, the US should be going around whacking these bubbas? Really? I thought that was so last decade’s neo con job.

NATO was supposed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down and the Russians out. After 74 years and an EU economy second to the US’s; maybe the EU should pull their share.

GF


Ribbit, ribbit, ribbit...I'm hearing frogs....that's it, not even crickets...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:07 am

Why do you suddenly sound like Dick Cheney and Mitt Romney in 2012? NATO doesn’t have s mission and, without the US MIL, doesn’t have the means to defend itself from an onslaught of drunken Russian hookers.

GF
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:20 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why do you suddenly sound like Dick Cheney and Mitt Romney in 2012? NATO doesn’t have s mission and, without the US MIL, doesn’t have the means to defend itself from an onslaught of drunken Russian hookers.

GF


Welll...1) FACT: as you say 'NATO doesn’t have s mission and, without the US MIL,'...that was and is the point. You do know it's history, correct? No offense, but it doesn't sound like you do.
2)Putin wouldn't use the famed Russian hookers for what he has in mind.
3) I'd sound like Romney and Cheney IF I advocated a private firm (aka Halliburton, Blackwater) to pick up the defense slack. Kinda what our traitor President otherwise known as Putin's Bitch is trying to do now with Erik 'Blackwater' Prince.

4) ...and too late on the Russian Hooker Invasion, they are and have been crawling all over Beverly Hills for the past year.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:39 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why do you suddenly sound like Dick Cheney and Mitt Romney in 2012? NATO doesn’t have s mission and, without the US MIL, doesn’t have the means to defend itself from an onslaught of drunken Russian hookers.

GF


Let's play out your scenario of 'if US military led NATO..never happened'...

US, Russia, Britain, France + other allies defeat Nazi Germany.

Everyone goes home.

Russia does exactly what it did, clamps down on satellite nations establish dominance over each.

The US says 'Not our problem'...Russia takes that as a cue to intimidate West Europe to the point that nearly (if not all) align themselves begrudgingly with Moscow in a Russian NATO.

Now the US finds itself with Canada, Mexico and Mexico as true loyal Allies...that's the world you wanted.

If Mexico had a different President, Russia could sweet talk them into setting up shop (bases) there with Stalin Russian Air Base in Juarez (El Paso Texas border) and Brezhnev Russian Air Base in Tijuana (San Diego California border).

More to your liking?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Magog
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 9:54 am

A more plausible scenario is that the EU pulls it’s own weight.

One odd effect of the Trump era is that Democrats now absolutely love the military industrial complex just because they want to oppose Trump.
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 10:37 am

Magog wrote:
A more plausible scenario is that the EU pulls it’s own weight.


Some people have no sense of balance when it comes to physical match ups...as perfectly shown here.

Magog wrote:
One odd effect of the Trump era is that Democrats now absolutely love the military industrial complex just because they want to oppose Trump.


..and then there are those who cannot see the forest for the trees..again perfectly demonstrated by our self-declared resident Moderate.

Hate and love of a president is TRUMPED in every shape and form when the Nation's Security is threatened. Unfortunately, some people remain in the fog of cesspool of divisiveness no matter what.

Patriotism...amazing how few Americans no what it truly means.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Magog
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 10:55 am

Your position that Europe would not step up its game if the United States provided less support to NATO is definitely an unusual one.

I’m all for spending less on the military industrial complex so we have more to spend on other programs. Europe won’t fall apart if we cut back some over time in a smooth and orderly transition. I don’t believe that they are as helpless as you do.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 11:11 am

Good to see that NATO still have a lot of support in the US, as it does in Europe and Canada. Shared values are worth defending.

Magog wrote:
Your position that Europe would not step up its game if the United States provided less support to NATO is definitely an unusual one.

I’m all for spending less on the military industrial complex so we have more to spend on other programs. Europe won’t fall apart if we cut back some over time in a smooth and orderly transition. I don’t believe that they are as helpless as you do.


Gee, what do Americans think in of Europe? The combined budget of Europe far exceeds Russia's and thus its abilities far exceed Russia's. European countries have enough nuclear weapons to deter Russia to do anything.

Within NATO we have all agreed to move towards the 2% promised budget in something like 2024 or so (on top of my head). This was pre-Trump. America could reduce its budget to free up money for infrastructure or education or even the dreaded social programs if they wish. We all need to remember that the commitments of the US far outreaches NATO, it has a lot of commitments in the Pacific, so comparing the two isn't all that fair, to be honest.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
johns624
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 11:30 am

BN747 wrote:
Magog wrote:
A more plausible scenario is that the EU pulls it’s own weight.


Some people have no sense of balance when it comes to physical match ups...as perfectly shown here.

BN747
Here's the matchup--Russia has 143 million people. Just the top 5 Nato countries (Germany, UK, France, Italy and Spain) have over twice as many people 318 million. The GDP of those 5 countries is 11 trillion Euros. The GDP of Russia is 1.7 trillion USD...about the same as Canada. The EU should be able to take on Russia, both economically and militarily, with no problem, if they so desire...(that's a very big IF).
 
Magog
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 11:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
Good to see that NATO still have a lot of support in the US, as it does in Europe and Canada. Shared values are worth defending.

Magog wrote:
Your position that Europe would not step up its game if the United States provided less support to NATO is definitely an unusual one.

I’m all for spending less on the military industrial complex so we have more to spend on other programs. Europe won’t fall apart if we cut back some over time in a smooth and orderly transition. I don’t believe that they are as helpless as you do.


Gee, what do Americans think in of Europe? The combined budget of Europe far exceeds Russia's and thus its abilities far exceed Russia's. European countries have enough nuclear weapons to deter Russia to do anything.

Within NATO we have all agreed to move towards the 2% promised budget in something like 2024 or so (on top of my head). This was pre-Trump. America could reduce its budget to free up money for infrastructure or education or even the dreaded social programs if they wish. We all need to remember that the commitments of the US far outreaches NATO, it has a lot of commitments in the Pacific, so comparing the two isn't all that fair, to be honest.

Yes, we could reduce our military industrial complex budget in order to spend more on social programs. But the new left is opposed to that because they want to “pwn” Trump or something. We live in very strange times.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 11:52 am

johns624 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Magog wrote:
A more plausible scenario is that the EU pulls it’s own weight.


Some people have no sense of balance when it comes to physical match ups...as perfectly shown here.

BN747
Here's the matchup--Russia has 143 million people. Just the top 5 Nato countries (Germany, UK, France, Italy and Spain) have over twice as many people 318 million. The GDP of those 5 countries is 11 trillion Euros. The GDP of Russia is 1.7 trillion USD...about the same as Canada. The EU should be able to take on Russia, both economically and militarily, with no problem, if they so desire...(that's a very big IF).


There is no desire within Europe to take on Russia, why would we want to invade such a country? On the other hand, we can defend against Russia just fine and that is the whole point.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
johns624
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 12:00 pm

I never said anything about invading Russia. "Take on" means that they could match them either militarily or economically.
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 1:53 pm

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Good to see that NATO still have a lot of support in the US, as it does in Europe and Canada. Shared values are worth defending.

Magog wrote:
Your position that Europe would not step up its game if the United States provided less support to NATO is definitely an unusual one.

I’m all for spending less on the military industrial complex so we have more to spend on other programs. Europe won’t fall apart if we cut back some over time in a smooth and orderly transition. I don’t believe that they are as helpless as you do.


Gee, what do Americans think in of Europe? The combined budget of Europe far exceeds Russia's and thus its abilities far exceed Russia's. European countries have enough nuclear weapons to deter Russia to do anything.

Within NATO we have all agreed to move towards the 2% promised budget in something like 2024 or so (on top of my head). This was pre-Trump. America could reduce its budget to free up money for infrastructure or education or even the dreaded social programs if they wish. We all need to remember that the commitments of the US far outreaches NATO, it has a lot of commitments in the Pacific, so comparing the two isn't all that fair, to be honest.

Yes, we could reduce our military industrial complex budget in order to spend more on social programs. But the new left is opposed to that because they want to “pwn” Trump or something. We live in very strange times.


Nice try, but no one buys your 'social programs' concerns you were more driven my Dems supporting NATO because the traitor president is doing Putin's bidding.

At the moment it's a bite just too big risk.

Without NATO, it might be a bite worth taking - an allow the European continent be ravaged a 3rd time.

Russia's economy is approx. the size of Italy's, yes they have no cash- ...But militarily? There's no pretty outcome either way.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Spar
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 2:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
NATO was supposed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down and the Russians out. After 74 years and an EU economy second to the US’s; maybe the EU should pull their share.
NATO never had any function to keep Germany down. That's purely a fantasy of yours or Breitbart's.
 
Magog
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 3:33 pm

If you believe that Putin will reflexively invade Europe you are willfully ignorant of the statistics that have been provided in this very thread. No, believe it or not some of us have a heart and would rather see money spent on social programs than a military industrial complex. I respect that you disagree with this sentiment but you should not impugn ill will on those of us that hold it.

Your other fundamental mistake is your belief that I feel that Europe should not be defended whatsoever. In the crazy world of Donald Trump the Democrats are now the party who insists on substantial participation in global military conflicts. All of this at the expense of investing in social programs. Because apparently opposing Trump is more important than helping people.
 
anrec80
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 3:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:

There is no desire within Europe to take on Russia, why would we want to invade such a country? On the other hand, we can defend against Russia just fine and that is the whole point.


This is absolutely correct - over the course of the history, Europe was getting united and then invaded Russia a few times before. Such adventures never ended well for Europe. So you absolutely wouldn’t want to invade Russia.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 3:57 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

There is no desire within Europe to take on Russia, why would we want to invade such a country? On the other hand, we can defend against Russia just fine and that is the whole point.


This is absolutely correct - over the course of the history, Europe was getting united and then invaded Russia a few times before. Such adventures never ended well for Europe. So you absolutely wouldn’t want to invade Russia.


Yes I have heard this many times in many languages from many people, the exact same lines. All Russian trolls though.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yes I have heard this many times in many languages from many people, the exact same lines. All Russian trolls though.


This is not “trolling” Dutchy, this is history.
 
seb146
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:16 pm

I see a lot of the same flawed right wing talking points. Look at it this way:

Two people on opposite sides of the planet. Both contribute 1\3 of their income to various programs. One has an income of $1000 a week, the other with an income of $100 a week. The $1000 a week person complains the other person is following the rules but not contributing $333 a week.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes I have heard this many times in many languages from many people, the exact same lines. All Russian trolls though.


This is not “trolling” Dutchy, this is history.


I didn't say that it was trolling, now did I, I said I have heard this argument many times from Russian trolls, and you are offended by this factual comment. Strange.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Spar
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:23 pm

Magog wrote:
If you believe that Putin will reflexively invade Europe you are willfully ignorant of the statistics that have been provided in this very thread.
Russia is intent on destabilizing Europe. Putin has begun by invading Ukraine which puts enormous pressure on other countries near the Russian frontier such as Moldovia; it either forces them to kowtow to Russia's requests or it can even drive them in a reactionary right wing direction which has the effect of threatening a local hot conflict with Russia. Putin is always looking for targets of opportunity and he is well aware that he has carte blanche to take whatever he wants in eastern Europe if he can get the US to withdraw from western Europe. The Europeans then might draw a line in the sand of their own, just as they did in the late 1930s but by the time that has happened western Europe will be in a weakened position and will have few options other than military action or acquiescence.

His objective is to replace US influence with Russian hegemony. He is not our friend. Keep in mind that Russia historically has been opposed to the status quo in Europe, this is nothing new.

But I understand that you see the destruction of liberal democracies as a good thing. So Putin's agenda matches the Breitbart group, your tribe, just fine. I wish you ill in your endeavors.
 
mham001
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 4:35 pm

BN747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BN747 wrote:

In an ideal world, that's a great idea.

But no ideal world exist besides in Tahiti and the French side of St. Martin.

The world that does exists has too many leaders and near-leaders chomping at the bit to be the next Putin, Little Kim, Dueterte, the idiot in Brazil and Italy just waiting to exact their plans to f*k some people up, Then add in the conflicts of the Middle East, the Turks vs Armenians, the Balkan differences, why not flare up the tribal conflicts in Africa and stir up the muslims in the southern Philippines ?

THAT is the world without deterrence.

BN747


So, the US should be going around whacking these bubbas? Really? I thought that was so last decade’s neo con job.

NATO was supposed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down and the Russians out. After 74 years and an EU economy second to the US’s; maybe the EU should pull their share.

GF


Perhaps you 'd prefer the Chinese to be the world's policeman.

Or the Saudis?

Or Putin even?

Pick one.

Because in human affairs there must be a leader, humans aren't intelligent enough to fare without one.

You need a police in your community.
We need them in our counties.
We need them federally.

And we need one/them globally.

So...I ask again, WHO is your preferred choice?

BN747


Wow, you advocating the US as the world's policeman? That is going to make your liberal friends in Europe cringe. And this is just part of the mixed message we hear regarding US/Europe and Russia/Putin. As Putin gains a little bit of Europe at a time, the Germans make themselves more reliant on him for their energy and even seem to take some pleasure in spurning the US over it. Meanwhile, their own defenses are nothing but a laughingstock. Europe in general, France/Britain did not even have the ammunition to destroy the most liberal prosperous country in North Africa, makes you wonder how they would really do against the Russian machine. Regardless, they need to step it up and we need to retract, they've been living large under our umbrella for too long.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 5:35 pm

Magog wrote:
One odd effect of the Trump era is that Democrats now absolutely love the military industrial complex just because they want to oppose Trump.

The other, even more remarkable one, is Trump's Republicans now passionately playing Russia's useful idiots... a role once exclusively reserved for the Corbyns, Chomskys and Schröders of this world.
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 8:56 pm

mham001 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

So, the US should be going around whacking these bubbas? Really? I thought that was so last decade’s neo con job.

NATO was supposed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down and the Russians out. After 74 years and an EU economy second to the US’s; maybe the EU should pull their share.

GF


Perhaps you 'd prefer the Chinese to be the world's policeman.

Or the Saudis?

Or Putin even?

Pick one.

Because in human affairs there must be a leader, humans aren't intelligent enough to fare without one.

You need a police in your community.
We need them in our counties.
We need them federally.

And we need one/them globally.

So...I ask again, WHO is your preferred choice?

BN747


Wow, you advocating the US as the world's policeman? That is going to make your liberal friends in Europe cringe. And this is just part of the mixed message we hear regarding US/Europe and Russia/Putin. As Putin gains a little bit of Europe at a time, the Germans make themselves more reliant on him for their energy and even seem to take some pleasure in spurning the US over it. Meanwhile, their own defenses are nothing but a laughingstock. Europe in general, France/Britain did not even have the ammunition to destroy the most liberal prosperous country in North Africa, makes you wonder how they would really do against the Russian machine. Regardless, they need to step it up and we need to retract, they've been living large under our umbrella for too long.


When it comes to being the World's Policeman, as in the Free World, damn right I'm serious!
The Europeans prefer it too, whether they like it or not, sure this newer generation may not want it...but their parents know better.

Someone has to take the job or it's a world of complete chaos until a winner is left standing.

I'd rather it be us Over Russia, China, India, Israel...doesn't matter who.

America's governing model is the best design for self-governing- in name only, because we are flaw extremely humans...we manage to find ourselves in conundrums like we are in now.

Is Law real, legit and followed - right now, America's leader is doing his best to trash that model in order to save himself...period.

But if we stick to the blue print (the Constitution) we can certainly craft a widely acceptable standard of governing.

Regardless, they need to step it up and we need to retract, they've been living large under our umbrella for too long.
Why? What is too long? Isn't 'too long' better than constant destruction of that part of world which can easily spread beyond their borders?


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Magog
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Fri May 24, 2019 9:06 pm

Interesting. You have a highly industrialized region of the globe that is allied with us and is perfectly capable of defending itself. Yet you want us to play European policeman. The military industrial complex absolutely loves that. It’s straight out of the John Bolton and Dick Cheney playbooks.
 
Spar
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 1:23 am

I object to this metaphor of "policeman", it is a cliché (Republican speak) it is an emotionally loaded and inaccurate representation of US policy.

This is what the right wingers frequently do; they reduce complex subjects to clichés and banter them about as if they are discussing actual reality. This is how the uneducated "base" gets their world view. That's why our nation has wound up with a narcissistic criminal as head of state.

I suggest all thinking people keep their eyes open to this kind of stuff.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 2:13 am

Spar wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
NATO was supposed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down and the Russians out. After 74 years and an EU economy second to the US’s; maybe the EU should pull their share.
NATO never had any function to keep Germany down. That's purely a fantasy of yours or Breitbart's.


Maybe you should be aware of the First NATO Chief, Lord Ismay, who said, and I quote,


LORD ISMAY
Lord Hastings Lionel Ismay was NATO’s first Secretary General, a position he was initially reluctant to accept. By the end of his tenure however, Ismay had become the biggest advocate of the organisation he had famously said earlier on in his political career, was created to “keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”



Lord Ismay died 4 years before this guy Breitbart was born.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastings_Ismay,_1st_Baron_Ismay


GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Sat May 25, 2019 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BN747
Topic Author
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 2:17 am

Spar wrote:
I object to this metaphor of "policeman", it is a cliché (Republican speak) it is an emotionally loaded and inaccurate representation of US policy.

This is what the right wingers frequently do; they reduce complex subjects to clichés and banter them about as if they are discussing actual reality. This is how the uneducated "base" gets their world view. That's why our nation has wound up with a narcissistic criminal as head of state.

I suggest all thinking people keep their eyes open to this kind of stuff.


I understand the negativity associated with the term, but it is exactly what it is...global policing.

Humans need policing against bad actors/dictators and human rights abusers.

The name is one to get comfortable with instead of concerns of sensitivities and feelings...as I pointed earlier we need and have policing in the smallest of communities to the largest cities, federal policing of nations and now it's long past time for the Earth to be on same page with a standard of civility and respect of rights for all. That can only happen when starting 'somewhere'...the US has a done a slightly better than half-assed job, it can and must do better. However, at this point in time, with the most immoral, despicable person ever at the helm, the US is in no position to lead anything.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 2:33 am

Policing the world is good of Democrats do it, bad if Republicans do it. Got it. We need to selective about our vital interests.

BN747,

Your theory could get us endless wars, parades of fallen soldiers and unending hatred of Americans. It’s none of our business and, no, people need to be capable of self-government, in the true sense, “govern ourselves”; not led around by fools who think they know better.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Sat May 25, 2019 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Spar
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 2:37 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Policing the world is good of Democrats do it, bad if Republicans do it. Got it. We need to selective about our vital interests.
"Policing the world" is a fantasy cliché of yours.

If you have something to say, then say it.
Cut out the vague innuendos.
 
Spar
Posts: 227
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 3:11 am

BN747 wrote:
I understand the negativity associated with the term, but it is exactly what it is...global policing.
It's not a case of negativity, metaphors can easily introduce a slant in the point of view on how a subject is viewed. In this case if one choses to communicate in broad vague terms they have removed themselves from any actual discussion of American foreign policy and how government works and will most likely wind up playing into the tricks of the populists.

There is a use for lazy, even off center metaphors, but not while debating with a slippery opponent. Always resist giving a questionably honest debater a chance to move from the specific to the general. If you allow that to happen, it is almost a certainty that the subject is going to shift or that the salient points will be evaded.

Metaphors are representations of reality, there is no need for them if one is parsing the reality for discussion anyway. .
 
BN747
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 3:39 am

Spar wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Policing the world is good of Democrats do it, bad if Republicans do it. Got it. We need to selective about our vital interests.
"Policing the world" is a fantasy cliché of yours.

If you have something to say, then say it.
Cut out the vague innuendos.


He's attempting to re-assign my terming the current disaster and embarrassment of this prez to mean ALL Republicans ..which I clearly did not.

Yes, GF, the current place holder is not even qualified to 'police' America, let alone the planet! A grifting, tax-cheating, con-man swooned enough Americans (with Russian assistance) to worm his way into power.

America cannot afford that mistake againt, hell the world can't take another fool at the helm. Look at how the US looks to the rest of the world - yeah, not same view as from Arkansas.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
anrec80
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 6:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
I see a lot of the same flawed right wing talking points. Look at it this way:

Two people on opposite sides of the planet. Both contribute 1\3 of their income to various programs. One has an income of $1000 a week, the other with an income of $100 a week. The $1000 a week person complains the other person is following the rules but not contributing $333 a week.


Except that in real life the person making $100/week pays zero and yet uses public services, but the person making $1000/week pays more like 40% (even 45% if self employed). Certainly we have not everyone paying their fair share here.
 
anrec80
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 6:54 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
The other, even more remarkable one, is Trump's Republicans now passionately playing Russia's useful idiots... a role once exclusively reserved for the Corbyns, Chomskys and Schröders of this world.


They are not playing idiots. They just ARE idiots who do not know what they are doing in their positions and what’s going to come out of it.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3022
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 9:03 pm

BN747 said,

Humans need policing against bad actors/dictators and human rights abusers.

The name is one to get comfortable with instead of concerns of sensitivities and feelings...as I pointed earlier we need and have policing in the smallest of communities to the largest cities, federal policing of nations and now it's long past time for the Earth to be on same page with a standard of civility and respect of rights for all. That can only happen when starting 'somewhere'...the US has a done a slightly better than half-assed job, it can and must do better. However, at this point in time, with the most immoral, despicable person ever at the helm, the US is in no position to lead anything.


So, okay, with you it’s about the “right” person, regardless of party, pursuing what you think are the right policies. But, that’s a cult of personality. A president holding your opinions is good, if they hold other ideas, they’re not good. Once again, take that power away from the President who should really be an administrator of a small, but important, bureaucracy, not the leader of the world, policing other people by applying our ideas on them. Our position should be closer to Switzerland than a modern British Empire.

GF
 
BN747
Topic Author
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sat May 25, 2019 10:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BN747 said,

Humans need policing against bad actors/dictators and human rights abusers.

The name is one to get comfortable with instead of concerns of sensitivities and feelings...as I pointed earlier we need and have policing in the smallest of communities to the largest cities, federal policing of nations and now it's long past time for the Earth to be on same page with a standard of civility and respect of rights for all. That can only happen when starting 'somewhere'...the US has a done a slightly better than half-assed job, it can and must do better. However, at this point in time, with the most immoral, despicable person ever at the helm, the US is in no position to lead anything.


So, okay, with you it’s about the “right” person, regardless of party, pursuing what you think are the right policies. But, that’s a cult of personality. A president holding your opinions is good, if they hold other ideas, they’re not good. Once again, take that power away from the President who should really be an administrator of a small, but important, bureaucracy, not the leader of the world, policing other people by applying our ideas on them. Our position should be closer to Switzerland than a modern British Empire.

GF


Wow, if you were a pilot planning on landing in London Heathrow..you just touched down in Kiev with that misguided read.

America set the standard for 'government blue print' with the Constitution. FACT.
America's practice of what it preaches has failed on many accounts and miserably in others. FACT
America's model of governance is second to none - but it's the human touch that takes America off course every time - for instance, Brown vs Board of Education decided ALL public schools should be equal and open to all - Human Problem: How many states, cities, communities violently resisted? FACT

The model is good, hell perfect...but it's humans who place their personal interests about the interests of the whole that chips away at the model.

That example perfectly explains how humans can come up with 'great' ideas...it's individuals within enforcing the model that fail the system.

Like it or not, the global community has been and is moving together collectively versus apart.

The best platform to achieve that is the American one. That requires a leadership of intellect,global understanding and global awareness - the current American leader you are doing your best keep on a pedestal has none of that - infact he doesn't possess the needed skills to run a doggy day care center - there are indeed humans dumb AF, and your man is one of them.

Not a global (or national leader) by anyone's standard (anyone with a sense of justice, fairness and empathy that is.

Keep selling tRump-Aid all you want, but everyone knows he's despised by most of the planet.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sun May 26, 2019 2:26 am

Your hubris and desire to spread American exceptionalism is limitless. Neo-cons from the GWB administration must bursting with excitement at that post. Yes, we invented a wonderful system of government suited to Americans, but there’s no reason to believe that Indians, Asians, Africans, even British would be well or even meanly served by the imposition of our system. Hands off those people and let them work out their own way.

You still never get that I’m not a Trump supporter, he’s a Brooklyn buffoon, a cad, a liar and totally lacking in character. That said, he’s not elected to be a paragon of moral virtue to third world people, to be a model citizen to our children. He’s the president and Clinton was nearly as bad, as was Nixon, Johnson, Harding and several others. They all prove any idiot can be president and not one them is that smart. But, you do make an argument for drastically reducing the powers given the bozos on the Potomac.

BTW, never landed at the wrong airport, so WTF are lying about?

GF
 
seb146
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sun May 26, 2019 5:20 am

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I see a lot of the same flawed right wing talking points. Look at it this way:

Two people on opposite sides of the planet. Both contribute 1\3 of their income to various programs. One has an income of $1000 a week, the other with an income of $100 a week. The $1000 a week person complains the other person is following the rules but not contributing $333 a week.


Except that in real life the person making $100/week pays zero and yet uses public services, but the person making $1000/week pays more like 40% (even 45% if self employed). Certainly we have not everyone paying their fair share here.


Except that is not how NATO works. Europe does not get free stuff. They pay according to NATO rules.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1768
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sun May 26, 2019 5:36 am

seb146 wrote:
Except that is not how NATO works. Europe does not get free stuff. They pay according to NATO rules.


Hold on - somewhere I am lost here. Why are we bringing income distribution matters and NATO into the same context?
 
seb146
Posts: 19881
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sun May 26, 2019 5:58 am

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Except that is not how NATO works. Europe does not get free stuff. They pay according to NATO rules.


Hold on - somewhere I am lost here. Why are we bringing income distribution matters and NATO into the same context?


Because the thread is about NATO and you were talking about European NATO countries not paying their fair share. But they do according to NATO rules.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Spar
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sun May 26, 2019 7:40 am

BN747 wrote:
America set the standard for 'government blue print' with the Constitution. FACT.

That sentence is wrong wrong wrong.

I would have to leave a book length post to properly rebut that bit of jingoism, but so far we don't even have an honest ethical way of chosing our national, and in some cases local leaders. We are saddled with a convoluted system that was cobbled together to suit the needs of a group of 18th century agrarian states. There are number of reasons that the US has held together for 200 years so far, but the US constitution isn't any major factor in that.

And as far as civil rights and justice and all that, well there was the French Revolution, that's where all that good stuff was really invented. Our implementation of that stuff has been spotty at best.

The Parliamentary system used by most European countries offers a better opportunity for ethical representative government than the two party gerrymandered abomination we are currently living under.
 
BN747
Topic Author
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Sun May 26, 2019 11:18 pm

Spar wrote:
BN747 wrote:
America set the standard for 'government blue print' with the Constitution. FACT.

That sentence is wrong wrong wrong.


You say that..but the garbage you laid below states nothing to sustain your 'wrong, wrong, wrong' nonsense.

Spar wrote:
I would have to leave a book length post to properly rebut that bit of jingoism, but so far we don't even have an honest ethical way of chosing our national, and in some cases local leaders. We are saddled with a convoluted system that was cobbled together to suit the needs of a group of 18th century agrarian states. There are number of reasons that the US has held together for 200 years so far, but the US constitution isn't any major factor in that.

And as far as civil rights and justice and all that, well there was the French Revolution, that's where all that good stuff was really invented. Our implementation of that stuff has been spotty at best.

The Parliamentary system used by most European countries offers a better opportunity for ethical representative government than the two party gerrymandered abomination we are currently living under.


I won't need a bible-length chapter to address what you feel is salient with regard to the better solution to fair governance.

Here are the steps regarding the path leading to the Rights of man - established by man.
The Magna Carta - addressing the universal liberty (freedoms) of rights of man, that his right to be is recognized in everyday affairs and political input.
The US Constitution/Bill of Rights - a further recognition establishing governance guidelines providing a stable platform in which to improve upon with each successive generation.

The system is convoluted to anyone ignorant of it.

The Parliamentary system is convoluted AF. If America took on a viable 3rd party, a forth, a fifth....now we find ourselves in that Parliamentary lane of mass confusion which we see abroad daily from countries that have them. Talk about an avenue to create a tidal wave of mass confusion - do that! Now, imagine the tv ads/news coverage of all those political angles unleashed on an already cynical, poorly informed populous. Even FaceBook could not keep up or keep track of the torrential ignorance & stupidity to follow.


And as far as civil rights and justice and all that, well there was the French Revolution, that's where all that good stuff was really invented.

Yes, from a 'human' civil rights perspective but that didn't stick in anyone's mind...if it did, the US Civil Rights movement would have unnecessary.
Jimmy Carter's call for Universal recognition of 'Human Rights' would not have been necessary (as it was during a time of Dictators on every continent crushing whomever they wished'.

Your scant definition of these matters and disregard of a constant revisiting of such reflects thoughts of person 'thinking everyone has learned history, histories lessons, are aware of all their governments doings'...they aren't. Look around...you see people who don't know dick about their own country, let alone it's past, present involvments domestically and internationally. The last think a rather stupid public needs is 30 poltical parties pumping 30 political angles. That is indeed a guaranteed recipe for utter chaos and pave the way for a dictator. If we had that system now, with 35% of America goose-stepping to the tunes of absolute dumbest man to hold federal power in American history, he'd have NO problem getting his Russian style military parade, killing off the press, jailing half the US Congress and everyone who has crossed him in his life (and he has a very long enemies list)...yeah, he get all of his macabre desires. And if not him an even worse creature looms in waiting.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Spar
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Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 12:17 am

BN747 wrote:
Here are the steps regarding the path leading to the Rights of man - established by man.
The Magna Carta - addressing the universal liberty (freedoms) of rights of man, that his right to be is recognized in everyday affairs and political input.
The US Constitution/Bill of Rights - a further recognition establishing governance guidelines providing a stable platform in which to improve upon with each successive generation.
Why do you skip the French Revolution which was taking place as the provisions of the US Constitution were being decided on? The French Revolution had a huge impact on the US Constitution. Had the writing of the US Constitution taken place 10 years earlier we would have had a much different document.

BTW, for the purpose of this discussion, I don't consider the Bill of rights to be part of the constitution, it was an add on that came after the fact. The US bill of rights could be added to any type of government being created, even a monarchy (and would usually be included in the primary text instead of as an add-on). My focus is on how power is apportioned as the result of the vote.
BN747 wrote:
The system is convoluted to anyone ignorant of it.
A system that declares the person who lost the vote count the winner because some people's votes count more than other people's votes is convoluted IMO.


Then there is the fact that in the US constitutional system, there can be no third parties. Any third party will only subtract votes from the major party that is closest to it's doctrine and thus guarantees a win for the party that usually has the least support among the people.

That is unacceptable IMO.

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