BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 6321
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 12:31 am

Spar wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Here are the steps regarding the path leading to the Rights of man - established by man.
The Magna Carta - addressing the universal liberty (freedoms) of rights of man, that his right to be is recognized in everyday affairs and political input.
The US Constitution/Bill of Rights - a further recognition establishing governance guidelines providing a stable platform in which to improve upon with each successive generation.


Why do you skip the French Revolution which was taking place as the provisions of the US Constitution were being decided on? The French Revolution had a huge impact on the US Constitution. Had the writing of the US Constitution taken place 10 years earlier we would have had a much different document.


That is true and I did not intend to diminish the contributions of lessons of the French Revolution, just like the Magna Carta, the foreign events of the French Revolution were indeed instrument in advancing thought - in preparation of the US Constitution. The Bill of Rights was abit of an after thought. But just as amendments serve to address corrective measures it is an added function opened to a changing society. Our laws aren't meant to last permanently...like the 2nd Amendment, it needs to be adjusted for the current age.

Spar wrote:
BTW, for the purpose of this discussion, I don't consider the Bill of rights to be part of the constitution, it was an add on that came after the fact. The US bill of rights could be added to any type of government being created, even a monarchy (and would usually be included in the primary text instead of as an add-on). My focus is on how power is apportioned as the result of the vote.
BN747 wrote:
The system is convoluted to anyone ignorant of it.
A system that declares the person who lost the vote count the winner because some people's votes count more than other people's votes is convoluted IMO.


Then there is the fact that in the US constitutional system, there can be no third parties. Any third party will only subtract votes from the major party that is closest to it's doctrine and thus guarantees a win for the party that usually has the least support among the people.

That is unacceptable IMO.


The way the current Electoral College design does need to be disposed of or replaced with a fairer mechanism because clearly...it allows the loser (just as we are seeing now) to win the election.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Spar
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

BN747 wrote:
Spar wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Here are the steps regarding the path leading to the Rights of man - established by man.
The Magna Carta - addressing the universal liberty (freedoms) of rights of man, that his right to be is recognized in everyday affairs and political input.
The US Constitution/Bill of Rights - a further recognition establishing governance guidelines providing a stable platform in which to improve upon with each successive generation.


Why do you skip the French Revolution which was taking place as the provisions of the US Constitution were being decided on? The French Revolution had a huge impact on the US Constitution. Had the writing of the US Constitution taken place 10 years earlier we would have had a much different document.


That is true and I did not intend to diminish the contributions of lessons of the French Revolution, just like the Magna Carta, the foreign events of the French Revolution were indeed instrument in advancing thought - in preparation of the US Constitution. The Bill of Rights was abit of an after thought. But just as amendments serve to address corrective measures it is an added function opened to a changing society. Our laws aren't meant to last permanently...like the 2nd Amendment, it needs to be adjusted for the current age.

Spar wrote:
BTW, for the purpose of this discussion, I don't consider the Bill of rights to be part of the constitution, it was an add on that came after the fact. The US bill of rights could be added to any type of government being created, even a monarchy (and would usually be included in the primary text instead of as an add-on). My focus is on how power is apportioned as the result of the vote.
BN747 wrote:
The system is convoluted to anyone ignorant of it.
A system that declares the person who lost the vote count the winner because some people's votes count more than other people's votes is convoluted IMO.


Then there is the fact that in the US constitutional system, there can be no third parties. Any third party will only subtract votes from the major party that is closest to it's doctrine and thus guarantees a win for the party that usually has the least support among the people.

That is unacceptable IMO.


The way the current Electoral College design does need to be disposed of or replaced with a fairer mechanism because clearly...it allows the loser (just as we are seeing now) to win the election.

BN747
It's more than just the electoral college, it's the two party system that has to go. The two party system prevents secondary voices from being heard.

George Wallace, an extreme conservative took votes from the Republicans in 1968 (although he worked against his fellow conservatives, he wasn't decisive)
John Anderson muddied the waters in 1980 (but he also wasn't decisive)
Ross Perot, a conservative, in fact gave the White house to the Democrats in 1992
Ralph Nader, a liberal, in fact gave the white house to the Republicans in 2000
Bernie Sanders in his third party campaign that was aborted, weakened support for Hillary and as a result gave the 2016 election to Donald Trump.

The two party system has the effect of suppressing the voice of significant factions of politically active people in the country. It is anti-democratic and defeats the people's will.
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 6321
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 4:47 am

Spar wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Spar wrote:

Why do you skip the French Revolution which was taking place as the provisions of the US Constitution were being decided on? The French Revolution had a huge impact on the US Constitution. Had the writing of the US Constitution taken place 10 years earlier we would have had a much different document.


That is true and I did not intend to diminish the contributions of lessons of the French Revolution, just like the Magna Carta, the foreign events of the French Revolution were indeed instrument in advancing thought - in preparation of the US Constitution. The Bill of Rights was abit of an after thought. But just as amendments serve to address corrective measures it is an added function opened to a changing society. Our laws aren't meant to last permanently...like the 2nd Amendment, it needs to be adjusted for the current age.

Spar wrote:
BTW, for the purpose of this discussion, I don't consider the Bill of rights to be part of the constitution, it was an add on that came after the fact. The US bill of rights could be added to any type of government being created, even a monarchy (and would usually be included in the primary text instead of as an add-on). My focus is on how power is apportioned as the result of the vote.
A system that declares the person who lost the vote count the winner because some people's votes count more than other people's votes is convoluted IMO.


Then there is the fact that in the US constitutional system, there can be no third parties. Any third party will only subtract votes from the major party that is closest to it's doctrine and thus guarantees a win for the party that usually has the least support among the people.

That is unacceptable IMO.


The way the current Electoral College design does need to be disposed of or replaced with a fairer mechanism because clearly...it allows the loser (just as we are seeing now) to win the election.

BN747
It's more than just the electoral college, it's the two party system that has to go. The two party system prevents secondary voices from being heard.

George Wallace, an extreme conservative took votes from the Republicans in 1968 (although he worked against his fellow conservatives, he wasn't decisive)
John Anderson muddied the waters in 1980 (but he also wasn't decisive)
Ross Perot, a conservative, in fact gave the White house to the Democrats in 1992
Ralph Nader, a liberal, in fact gave the white house to the Republicans in 2000
Bernie Sanders in his third party campaign that was aborted, weakened support for Hillary and as a result gave the 2016 election to Donald Trump.

The two party system has the effect of suppressing the voice of significant factions of politically active people in the country. It is anti-democratic and defeats the people's will.



And it's a good thing it works this way, except for Bernie all of those guys are about as bad or worst than Gary Johnson (who had quite a bit of support here - until he opened his mouth on a subject he shouldn't have revealing him to dumber than anyone thought possible.

You just made the case for KEEPING a two party system. In your ideal set up..it creates the conduit to more than one foolish Buffoon (like America's current leader) to slip thru the cracks of a multi-partied option.

Keeping the choices narrowed down to two (after huge primary contest - like Dems 2020) flushes out the glaring flaws of the worse candidates.
As we saw in 2016, the most flawed candidate beat all the professionals...why? Because all of them were horrible as was their disastrous platform. And even then, the GOP faithful wanted a turd elected and the Russians and Electoral college assured it.

Again, you keep insisting the voting public is as informed about history and the election process as you do - they Don't.

And giving them MORE choices advances more idiocy and lunatics. Keep them on the two-lane as is...don't invite additional bad drivers.

And yes, the Electoral College can be retooled to be far more aligned justly.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 10:00 am

The idea that Trump is or was ever seriously contemplating leaving NATO is so ludicrous that everyone who believes it must be a total nut job.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8823
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 10:08 am

aviationaware wrote:
The idea that Trump is or was ever seriously contemplating leaving NATO is so ludicrous that everyone who believes it must be a total nut job.


So we must not believe Trump at his word? Even though many other things he mentioned during the campaign were actually things he set his eye on and is doing?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 11:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
So we must not believe Trump at his word? Even though many other things he mentioned during the campaign were actually things he set his eye on and is doing?


The difference between Trump supporters and enemies is that his supporters don't take him literally, but seriously. His enemies don't take him seriously, but literally. That's like, where's your brain? He only said things against NATO to push other member states into contributing more money, and that was wildly successful albeit not yet as successful as one might wish, but certainly more successful than all the velvet glove handling of the Obama years.

And I thought you were at least somewhat smart.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8823
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 11:57 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So we must not believe Trump at his word? Even though many other things he mentioned during the campaign were actually things he set his eye on and is doing?


The difference between Trump supporters and enemies is that his supporters don't take him literally, but seriously. His enemies don't take him seriously, but literally. That's like, where's your brain? He only said things against NATO to push other member states into contributing more money, and that was wildly successful albeit not yet as successful as one might wish, but certainly more successful than all the velvet glove handling of the Obama years.

And I thought you were at least somewhat smart.


As far as I know, nothing has changed since the NATO country made the deal in Obama's term to get to 2% of their GDP. So what has Trump actually achieved with NATO?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 12:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
As far as I know, nothing has changed since the NATO country made the deal in Obama's term to get to 2% of their GDP. So what has Trump actually achieved with NATO?


That deal existed on paper only. Trump actually enforced it. NATO members have pledged an additional 100 billion in defence spending over a very specific timeframe of 2 years in response to Trump's demands. This actually strengthened NATO. So anyone claiming Trump is trying to weaken NATO is a moron.

Now the biggest defense freeloader, Germany, still hasn't done a thing. That's lamentable. At least Trump's ambassador there is trying to do something about it by berating the German government any chance he gets. Of course that would never have happened under Obama, because goodness gracious, that might be controversial! Let's rather keep spending billions of dollars to make up for Germany's useless boyscout "army" with the broken down armory!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 8823
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 12:08 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As far as I know, nothing has changed since the NATO country made the deal in Obama's term to get to 2% of their GDP. So what has Trump actually achieved with NATO?


That deal existed on paper only. Trump actually enforced it. NATO members have pledged an additional 100 billion in defence spending over a very specific timeframe of 2 years in response to Trump's demands. This actually strengthened NATO. So anyone claiming Trump is trying to weaken NATO is a moron.

Now the biggest defense freeloader, Germany, still hasn't done a thing. That's lamentable. At least Trump's ambassador there is trying to do something about it by berating the German government any chance he gets. Of course that would never have happened under Obama, because goodness gracious, that might be controversial! Let's rather keep spending billions of dollars to make up for Germany's useless boyscout "army" with the broken down armory!



Really? You think this bad about Europe.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
seb146
Posts: 19830
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 4:15 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As far as I know, nothing has changed since the NATO country made the deal in Obama's term to get to 2% of their GDP. So what has Trump actually achieved with NATO?


That deal existed on paper only. Trump actually enforced it. NATO members have pledged an additional 100 billion in defence spending over a very specific timeframe of 2 years in response to Trump's demands. This actually strengthened NATO. So anyone claiming Trump is trying to weaken NATO is a moron.

Now the biggest defense freeloader, Germany, still hasn't done a thing. That's lamentable. At least Trump's ambassador there is trying to do something about it by berating the German government any chance he gets. Of course that would never have happened under Obama, because goodness gracious, that might be controversial! Let's rather keep spending billions of dollars to make up for Germany's useless boyscout "army" with the broken down armory!


The 2% agreement was reached under Obama and NATO allies have until 2024 to reach that goal. You and other MAGA fan boys seem to be upset because you all do not want to wait.

https://www.dw.com/en/how-does-germany- ... a-38033967

Other NATO nations currently spend less than 2% including Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Czech Republic, Albania, Italy, Hungary, and Croatia. Why all the hate and demands from ONLY Germany? Spain currently spends less than 1% for NATO defense. Why not be outraged over their "freeloading"?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1734
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 6:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Really? You think this bad about Europe.


As much as I dislike to - but I agree with this. Everyone knows the true value of an EU nation’s promise or an EU nation’s signature - and it is zero, sadly. Whatever is promised - this simply will not get delivered upon. If you noticed - major actors in this world prefer to not engage into serious matters with EU, or engage only with individual states, and only in the areas they have confidence.

In the recent years, the EU signed under and promised quite a few things, but nearly all of it was going down the drain shortly after. Masked by demonstration of “solidarity”, “values” or something else.

Some older agreements do work, but hardly any new ones.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Mon May 27, 2019 9:50 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The idea that Trump is or was ever seriously contemplating leaving NATO is so ludicrous that everyone who believes it must be a total nut job.


So you are saying members of Trump's own party are "total nut jobs"?

"Republicans in the United States Senate on Thursday unveiled a $750 billion Pentagon funding bill — that includes a provision aimed at stopping President Donald Trump from leaving the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)."

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/05/gop-defies-trump-and-joins-with-democrats-with-measure-to-block-president-from-abandoning-nato/.

anrec80 wrote:
Everyone knows the true value of an EU nation’s promise or an EU nation’s signature - and it is zero, sadly. Whatever is promised - this simply will not get delivered upon. If you noticed - major actors in this world prefer to not engage into serious matters with EU, or engage only with individual states, and only in the areas they have confidence. In the recent years, the EU signed under and promised quite a few things, but nearly all of it was going down the drain shortly after. Masked by demonstration of “solidarity”, “values” or something else. Some older agreements do work, but hardly any new ones.


That is more Russian propaganda. Here is the truth: Everyone knows the true value of the USA's promise or the USA's signature - and it is zero, sadly, under the current administration. Whatever is promised - this simply will not get delivered upon - and agreements get cancelled because of the whims of Individual #1.. If you noticed - major actors in this world prefer to not engage into serious matters with the man-child in the White House, or engage only with individual states, and only in the areas they have confidence. In the recent years, the USA signed agreements and promised quite a few things, but nearly all of it was going down the drain shortly after 2016. Unmasked by demonstrations of “petulance”, “values” or something else. Some older agreements do work, but hardly any new ones. He probably doesn't have the attention span to remember the older ones.

That is what should have been said.

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The difference between Trump supporters and enemies is that his supporters don't take him literally, but seriously. His enemies don't take him seriously, but literally.


It would be a far better country if we had a President we could take both literally and seriously.
Last edited by alfa164 on Mon May 27, 2019 10:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
Posts: 1734
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Tue May 28, 2019 12:58 am

alfa164 wrote:

That is more Russian propaganda.


This is just reality on that continent. Nothing else.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Tue May 28, 2019 1:58 am

alfa164 wrote:
(there is no such word as "derogative"; sorry)


Oh really.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/derogative
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11365
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Tue May 28, 2019 11:58 am

About promises, Russia promised to left Ukraine alone if it got rid of its nuclear weapons, then what happened ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LMP737
Posts: 5877
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Tue May 28, 2019 4:55 pm

aviationaware wrote:
He only said things against NATO to push other member states into contributing more money, and that was wildly successful albeit not yet as successful as one might wish, but certainly more successful than all the velvet glove handling of the Obama years.

.


If I were European I would want to mention to the USA that maybe they might want to spend a little less.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 am

LMP737 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
He only said things against NATO to push other member states into contributing more money, and that was wildly successful albeit not yet as successful as one might wish, but certainly more successful than all the velvet glove handling of the Obama years.

.


If I were European I would want to mention to the USA that maybe they might want to spend a little less.


We would spend less if we wouldn't have to cover all the European freeloaders.
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Wed May 29, 2019 3:46 pm

aviationaware wrote:
LMP737 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
He only said things against NATO to push other member states into contributing more money, and that was wildly successful albeit not yet as successful as one might wish, but certainly more successful than all the velvet glove handling of the Obama years.

.


If I were European I would want to mention to the USA that maybe they might want to spend a little less.


We would spend less if we wouldn't have to cover all the European freeloaders.


We're perfectly capable of looking after ourselves thanks. Take whatever military assets out you want.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 2971
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Wed May 29, 2019 8:21 pm

Have you any idea how little combat power the EU has?

It’s 1914 and 1939 all over again! I hope we just stay on the sidelines for Round III.

GF
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Wed May 29, 2019 9:48 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
LMP737 wrote:

If I were European I would want to mention to the USA that maybe they might want to spend a little less.


We would spend less if we wouldn't have to cover all the European freeloaders.


We're perfectly capable of looking after ourselves thanks. Take whatever military assets out you want.


Considering you are probably German (judging by your name) that is a pretty ridiculous statement given about 80-90% of your armory is broken down and inoperable due to spending being too low to maintain it properly.
 
BN747
Topic Author
Posts: 6321
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

Wed May 29, 2019 9:48 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
    GalaxyFlyer wrote:
    Have you any idea how little combat power the EU has?

    It’s 1914 and 1939 all over again! I hope we just stay on the sidelines for Round III.

    GF


    The ignorant types alive during WWi felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige.


    The ignorant types alive during WWiI felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige 10x. And saved 100s of millions of lives.

    So your comment here says ‘Let War erupt a 3rd time so you can sit back and eat popcorn and watch.

    You said in another post BN747 has right wing hating demons that n his head...doesn’t come anywhere close to macabre thoughts swimming around in yours.

    BN747
    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
     
    GalaxyFlyer
    Posts: 2971
    Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

    Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

    Wed May 29, 2019 10:40 pm

    BN747 wrote:
    [twoid][/twoid]
      GalaxyFlyer wrote:
      Have you any idea how little combat power the EU has?

      It’s 1914 and 1939 all over again! I hope we just stay on the sidelines for Round III.

      GF


      The ignorant types alive during WWi felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige.


      The ignorant types alive during WWiI felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige 10x. And saved 100s of millions of lives.

      So your comment here says ‘Let War erupt a 3rd time so you can sit back and eat popcorn and watch.

      You said in another post BN747 has right wing hating demons that n his head...doesn’t come anywhere close to macabre thoughts swimming around in yours.

      BN747


      The EU and UK have been reducing their defense budgets for years; their militaries, as in the 1930s are incapable of defending against a massed invasion. That’s a fact and, it’s a fact that they’d been vastly underperforming and freeloading on the US defense. As late as the Kosovo war, most of the EU couldn’t drop PGMs. In Yugoslavia, they were impotent at stopping genocide, waited for the US to save them. Enough s is enough. I am deeply respect what the US did to rescue liberty and justice in World Wars, but if they haven’t learned, good luck the next time.

      How many times do we have to save Europe from itself?

      BTW, how many years of service for you? How many dead notices given? How many bodies brought home? How many funerals? I’ve got 29 years, 4 death notifications, a dozen funerals.

      GF
       
      BN747
      Topic Author
      Posts: 6321
      Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

      Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

      Thu May 30, 2019 5:10 am

      GalaxyFlyer wrote:
      BN747 wrote:
      [twoid][/twoid]
        GalaxyFlyer wrote:
        Have you any idea how little combat power the EU has?

        It’s 1914 and 1939 all over again! I hope we just stay on the sidelines for Round III.

        GF


        The ignorant types alive during WWi felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige.


        The ignorant types alive during WWiI felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige 10x. And saved 100s of millions of lives.

        So your comment here says ‘Let War erupt a 3rd time so you can sit back and eat popcorn and watch.

        You said in another post BN747 has right wing hating demons that n his head...doesn’t come anywhere close to macabre thoughts swimming around in yours.

        BN747


        The EU and UK have been reducing their defense budgets for years; their militaries, as in the 1930s are incapable of defending against a massed invasion. That’s a fact and, it’s a fact that they’d been vastly underperforming and freeloading on the US defense. As late as the Kosovo war, most of the EU couldn’t drop PGMs. In Yugoslavia, they were impotent at stopping genocide, waited for the US to save them. Enough s is enough. I am deeply respect what the US did to rescue liberty and justice in World Wars, but if they haven’t learned, good luck the next time.

        How many times do we have to save Europe from itself?

        BTW, how many years of service for you? How many dead notices given? How many bodies brought home? How many funerals? I’ve got 29 years, 4 death notifications, a dozen funerals.

        GF


        I've got 4 years in the US Air Force, as for your service related duties, your comment suggest to increase your ' 4 death notifications' and attend more funerals.

        NATO serves as a deterrent to anymore of that.

        Without it, you seem to think that (as you stated the Europeans are incapable of defending against Putin and I agree to a point)...but if your scenario plays out and Putin bulldozes over Europe, you seem to think Putin will stop there.

        So now, what's to stop a Putin greater underhanded (election attack PLUS)...in other words we are now looking at fighting here on our home turf or we'll have to attack first and there you have all the death notices you can handle and certainly funerals by the 100Ks or more.

        So which way to do you want to see it go?

        BN747
        "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
         
        seb146
        Posts: 19830
        Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

        Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

        Thu May 30, 2019 5:57 am

        GalaxyFlyer wrote:
        BN747 wrote:
        [twoid][/twoid]
          GalaxyFlyer wrote:
          Have you any idea how little combat power the EU has?

          It’s 1914 and 1939 all over again! I hope we just stay on the sidelines for Round III.

          GF


          The ignorant types alive during WWi felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige.


          The ignorant types alive during WWiI felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige 10x. And saved 100s of millions of lives.

          So your comment here says ‘Let War erupt a 3rd time so you can sit back and eat popcorn and watch.

          You said in another post BN747 has right wing hating demons that n his head...doesn’t come anywhere close to macabre thoughts swimming around in yours.

          BN747


          The EU and UK have been reducing their defense budgets for years; their militaries, as in the 1930s are incapable of defending against a massed invasion. That’s a fact and, it’s a fact that they’d been vastly underperforming and freeloading on the US defense. As late as the Kosovo war, most of the EU couldn’t drop PGMs. In Yugoslavia, they were impotent at stopping genocide, waited for the US to save them. Enough s is enough. I am deeply respect what the US did to rescue liberty and justice in World Wars, but if they haven’t learned, good luck the next time.

          How many times do we have to save Europe from itself?

          BTW, how many years of service for you? How many dead notices given? How many bodies brought home? How many funerals? I’ve got 29 years, 4 death notifications, a dozen funerals.

          GF


          Why does the United States have to inject itself into every single civil war across the globe? How does injecting our troops into a civil war in Serbia save all of Europe? Does that mean injecting our troops in Ukraine and Myanmar and Yemen and Georgia and Transnistria will save all of Asia and Europe? How did that global empire work out for Portugal, Spain, Italy, Holland, and England?
          You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
           
          BN747
          Topic Author
          Posts: 6321
          Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

          Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

          Thu May 30, 2019 7:18 am

          seb146 wrote:
          GalaxyFlyer wrote:
          BN747 wrote:
          [twoid][/twoid]

            The ignorant types alive during WWi felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige.


            The ignorant types alive during WWiI felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige 10x. And saved 100s of millions of lives.

            So your comment here says ‘Let War erupt a 3rd time so you can sit back and eat popcorn and watch.

            You said in another post BN747 has right wing hating demons that n his head...doesn’t come anywhere close to macabre thoughts swimming around in yours.

            BN747


            The EU and UK have been reducing their defense budgets for years; their militaries, as in the 1930s are incapable of defending against a massed invasion. That’s a fact and, it’s a fact that they’d been vastly underperforming and freeloading on the US defense. As late as the Kosovo war, most of the EU couldn’t drop PGMs. In Yugoslavia, they were impotent at stopping genocide, waited for the US to save them. Enough s is enough. I am deeply respect what the US did to rescue liberty and justice in World Wars, but if they haven’t learned, good luck the next time.

            How many times do we have to save Europe from itself?

            BTW, how many years of service for you? How many dead notices given? How many bodies brought home? How many funerals? I’ve got 29 years, 4 death notifications, a dozen funerals.

            GF


            Why does the United States have to inject itself into every single civil war across the globe? How does injecting our troops into a civil war in Serbia save all of Europe? Does that mean injecting our troops in Ukraine and Myanmar and Yemen and Georgia and Transnistria will save all of Asia and Europe? How did that global empire work out for Portugal, Spain, Italy, Holland, and England?


            Follow my model...

            How the HUMAN Herd maintains ORDER ..from bottom up..

            If you live in America/West ..................and if .... you live in Lebanon Libya, etc

            Your village/town/city has Police ---------------- you have a block captain or local tough guy, on & on & on to a mayor (he more than likely is someones flunky.
            Your state has state cops _ govt body ..and here ..you have a warlord, Turf Boss, Oligarch and his Police.
            Your National gov same process duplicated .......and her ,,,you have unstable, here-today...gone-tomorrow govt.

            Therefore it is a tug of war of Orderly versus Disorder/Chaos dualing to the Death in one form or another.

            Of course, like all herd creatures, there must be a LEADER! ...period.

            And I know you've read me state this before, I much more prefer the American model of global leader (Co-op cool)

            vs Chinese Globl Rule or Russian Global Rule or Indian Global Rule.

            Someone must lead....I'd rather it be us.And I assure you many small nations would take that choice too.

            Any questions?

            BN747
            "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
             
            BN747
            Topic Author
            Posts: 6321
            Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

            Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

            Thu May 30, 2019 7:31 am

            GalaxyFlyer wrote:
            BN747 wrote:
            [twoid][/twoid]
              GalaxyFlyer wrote:
              Have you any idea how little combat power the EU has?

              It’s 1914 and 1939 all over again! I hope we just stay on the sidelines for Round III.

              GF


              The ignorant types alive during WWi felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige.


              The ignorant types alive during WWiI felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige 10x. And saved 100s of millions of lives.

              So your comment here says ‘Let War erupt a 3rd time so you can sit back and eat popcorn and watch.

              You said in another post BN747 has right wing hating demons that n his head...doesn’t come anywhere close to macabre thoughts swimming around in yours.

              BN747


              The EU and UK have been reducing their defense budgets for years; their militaries, as in the 1930s are incapable of defending against a massed invasion. That’s a fact and, it’s a fact that they’d been vastly underperforming and freeloading on the US defense. As late as the Kosovo war, most of the EU couldn’t drop PGMs. In Yugoslavia, they were impotent at stopping genocide, waited for the US to save them. Enough s is enough. I am deeply respect what the US did to rescue liberty and justice in World Wars, but if they haven’t learned, good luck the next time.

              How many times do we have to save Europe from itself?

              BTW, how many years of service for you? How many dead notices given? How many bodies brought home? How many funerals? I’ve got 29 years, 4 death notifications, a dozen funerals.

              GF



              Since you decided to BOAST your proud patriotic service, which is noble what ever it was you did.

              So the sacrifice those you honored and still hold great reverence...what did they die for? Answer:America.

              So if ALL that is TRUE .....please feel free to refute any of it now.

              Why is it now on this Earth, are you supporting a stark raving child-like Lunatic who goes against EVERYTHING America stands for (read Statue of Liberty & Constitution cue)...and has besmirched War heros, championed Injustice (Central Park Five) and currently attempting to undermine and dismantle the very system on which the US Constitution is based. And side with Russia over Americas' Intelligence Apparatus? How?

              How would those you hold in high esteem for their ultimate sacrifices feel if they could see your words and thoughts in appraise and support of the least patriotic, most immoral and most undisciplined leader the nation has ever had?

              how?
              How??
              HOW???

              BN747
              "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
               
              User avatar
              Aesma
              Posts: 11365
              Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

              Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

              Thu May 30, 2019 1:27 pm

              Nuclear weapons is all you need to defend against invasion, and we have those in the EU, even without any US involvement. Germany doesn't care about its military because the US has countless soldiers there, only when they leave can things change.
              New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
               
              GalaxyFlyer
              Posts: 2971
              Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

              Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

              Thu May 30, 2019 6:10 pm

              BN747 wrote:
              GalaxyFlyer wrote:
              BN747 wrote:
              [twoid][/twoid]

                The ignorant types alive during WWi felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige.


                The ignorant types alive during WWiI felt the same way about involvement then...but we went and upped our global prestige 10x. And saved 100s of millions of lives.

                So your comment here says ‘Let War erupt a 3rd time so you can sit back and eat popcorn and watch.

                You said in another post BN747 has right wing hating demons that n his head...doesn’t come anywhere close to macabre thoughts swimming around in yours.

                BN747


                The EU and UK have been reducing their defense budgets for years; their militaries, as in the 1930s are incapable of defending against a massed invasion. That’s a fact and, it’s a fact that they’d been vastly underperforming and freeloading on the US defense. As late as the Kosovo war, most of the EU couldn’t drop PGMs. In Yugoslavia, they were impotent at stopping genocide, waited for the US to save them. Enough s is enough. I am deeply respect what the US did to rescue liberty and justice in World Wars, but if they haven’t learned, good luck the next time.

                How many times do we have to save Europe from itself?

                BTW, how many years of service for you? How many dead notices given? How many bodies brought home? How many funerals? I’ve got 29 years, 4 death notifications, a dozen funerals.

                GF



                Since you decided to BOAST your proud patriotic service, which is noble what ever it was you did.

                So the sacrifice those you honored and still hold great reverence...what did they die for? Answer:America.

                So if ALL that is TRUE .....please feel free to refute any of it now.

                Why is it now on this Earth, are you supporting a stark raving child-like Lunatic who goes against EVERYTHING America stands for (read Statue of Liberty & Constitution cue)...and has besmirched War heros, championed Injustice (Central Park Five) and currently attempting to undermine and dismantle the very system on which the US Constitution is based. And side with Russia over Americas' Intelligence Apparatus? How?

                How would those you hold in high esteem for their ultimate sacrifices feel if they could see your words and thoughts in appraise and support of the least patriotic, most immoral and most undisciplined leader the nation has ever had?

                how?
                How??
                HOW???

                BN747


                You don’t real well, do you? I consistently posted that I think Trump is a buffoon and do not endorse as a person. I do support actions his administration have taken usually promised during the campaign. Lower corporate and individual taxes, conservative judges who will not legislate from the bench, stop apologizing everywhere, push allies to find their defenses, deregulation of areas in the economy. Personally, he is different in degree from other politicians elected to high office, but not in fact. They’re all lying, thieving weasels attempting to expand their fiefs, buying off some groups by stealing from other groups and sounding moral. Bribing us with our money.

                The troops died for America, not for some global leadership role. You’d turn Earth in Battlestar Galactica with America at the helm. No thanks.

                We’re social animals, not herd of lemmings. We can reason things, not react, but reasoning has become a past concept. We excuse all sorts of anti-social behavior as people just acting as emotional beings. Witness the excusal of inexcusable behavior in evacuations.

                GF
                 
                BN747
                Topic Author
                Posts: 6321
                Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Thu May 30, 2019 6:19 pm

                GalaxyFlyer wrote:
                BN747 wrote:
                GalaxyFlyer wrote:

                The EU and UK have been reducing their defense budgets for years; their militaries, as in the 1930s are incapable of defending against a massed invasion. That’s a fact and, it’s a fact that they’d been vastly underperforming and freeloading on the US defense. As late as the Kosovo war, most of the EU couldn’t drop PGMs. In Yugoslavia, they were impotent at stopping genocide, waited for the US to save them. Enough s is enough. I am deeply respect what the US did to rescue liberty and justice in World Wars, but if they haven’t learned, good luck the next time.

                How many times do we have to save Europe from itself?

                BTW, how many years of service for you? How many dead notices given? How many bodies brought home? How many funerals? I’ve got 29 years, 4 death notifications, a dozen funerals.

                GF



                Since you decided to BOAST your proud patriotic service, which is noble what ever it was you did.

                So the sacrifice those you honored and still hold great reverence...what did they die for? Answer:America.

                So if ALL that is TRUE .....please feel free to refute any of it now.

                Why is it now on this Earth, are you supporting a stark raving child-like Lunatic who goes against EVERYTHING America stands for (read Statue of Liberty & Constitution cue)...and has besmirched War heros, championed Injustice (Central Park Five) and currently attempting to undermine and dismantle the very system on which the US Constitution is based. And side with Russia over Americas' Intelligence Apparatus? How?

                How would those you hold in high esteem for their ultimate sacrifices feel if they could see your words and thoughts in appraise and support of the least patriotic, most immoral and most undisciplined leader the nation has ever had?

                how?
                How??
                HOW???

                BN747


                You don’t real well, do you? I consistently posted that I think Trump is a buffoon and do not endorse as a person. I do support actions his administration have taken usually promised during the campaign. Lower corporate and individual taxes, conservative judges who will not legislate from the bench, stop apologizing everywhere, push allies to find their defenses, deregulation of areas in the economy.

                The troops died for America, not for some global leadership role. You’d turn Earth in Battlestar Galactica with America at the helm. No thanks.

                We’re social animals, not herd of lemmings. We can reason things, not react, but reasoning has become a past concept. We excuse all sorts of anti-social behavior as people just acting as emotional beings. Witness the excusal of inexcusable behavior in evacuations.

                GF


                Boy that's a really lame excuse at attempting to reconcile your supposed praise of American war sacrifices by ' the excusal of inexcusable behavior in evacuations.' while praising and backing the most inexcusably behaved president EVER! Hypocrisy simply has no meaning in your mind.

                BN747
                "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
                 
                johns624
                Posts: 2040
                Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Thu May 30, 2019 8:25 pm

                There's a difference between who we can defend. If a country can afford and has the population to defend itself, but chooses not to, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. OTOH, if a country is small, makes an effort to have decent armed forces, but a much larger nation attacks them, then I'm all for helping them. The first scenario is much of Western Europe. The second could be the Baltic republics or Japan or Australia, if threatened by China. Those are merely examples, not implying that it will happen.
                 
                User avatar
                Aesma
                Posts: 11365
                Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Thu May 30, 2019 8:33 pm

                "Defending America" has a very loose definition it seems. Since Pearl Harbor, the US hasn't exactly been threatened, has it ? Yet it has fought in countless wars, some of which it started. Attacking Iraq was defending the US how ?
                New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
                 
                GalaxyFlyer
                Posts: 2971
                Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 3:18 am

                BN747 wrote:
                GalaxyFlyer wrote:
                BN747 wrote:


                Since you decided to BOAST your proud patriotic service, which is noble what ever it was you did.

                So the sacrifice those you honored and still hold great reverence...what did they die for? Answer:America.

                So if ALL that is TRUE .....please feel free to refute any of it now.

                Why is it now on this Earth, are you supporting a stark raving child-like Lunatic who goes against EVERYTHING America stands for (read Statue of Liberty & Constitution cue)...and has besmirched War heros, championed Injustice (Central Park Five) and currently attempting to undermine and dismantle the very system on which the US Constitution is based. And side with Russia over Americas' Intelligence Apparatus? How?

                How would those you hold in high esteem for their ultimate sacrifices feel if they could see your words and thoughts in appraise and support of the least patriotic, most immoral and most undisciplined leader the nation has ever had?

                how?
                How??
                HOW???

                BN747


                You don’t real well, do you? I consistently posted that I think Trump is a buffoon and do not endorse as a person. I do support actions his administration have taken usually promised during the campaign. Lower corporate and individual taxes, conservative judges who will not legislate from the bench, stop apologizing everywhere, push allies to find their defenses, deregulation of areas in the economy.

                The troops died for America, not for some global leadership role. You’d turn Earth in Battlestar Galactica with America at the helm. No thanks.

                We’re social animals, not herd of lemmings. We can reason things, not react, but reasoning has become a past concept. We excuse all sorts of anti-social behavior as people just acting as emotional beings. Witness the excusal of inexcusable behavior in evacuations.

                GF


                Boy that's a really lame excuse at attempting to reconcile your supposed praise of American war sacrifices by ' the excusal of inexcusable behavior in evacuations.' while praising and backing the most inexcusably behaved president EVER! Hypocrisy simply has no meaning in your mind.

                BN747


                Apparently, reading comprehension is also lost. There was no “supposed” in understanding military sacrifice in my post. There’s no excusal of Trump’s Buffoonery, either. I’m stating that we don’t need leaders, we need responsible, disciplined citizens who know how to behave. Trump ain’t one of them, either.

                GF
                 
                Reinhardt
                Posts: 168
                Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 1:39 pm

                aviationaware wrote:
                Reinhardt wrote:
                aviationaware wrote:

                We would spend less if we wouldn't have to cover all the European freeloaders.


                We're perfectly capable of looking after ourselves thanks. Take whatever military assets out you want.


                Considering you are probably German (judging by your name) that is a pretty ridiculous statement given about 80-90% of your armory is broken down and inoperable due to spending being too low to maintain it properly.


                British, but living in Germany.
                I've said it before, if you don't like how much money the US is spending on it's bases in Europe then remove them. If there is such a problem then perhaps if you left those countries would be forced to increase spending. Not that there is any appetite amoungst the population for this though.

                As a continent, Europe has more than enough Military might and expenditure, inc Nuclear Weapons.
                 
                zakuivcustom
                Posts: 2448
                Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 2:32 pm

                Aesma wrote:
                "Defending America" has a very loose definition it seems. Since Pearl Harbor, the US hasn't exactly been threatened, has it ? Yet it has fought in countless wars, some of which it started. Attacking Iraq was defending the US how ?


                We all know Iraq was Bush Jr. finishing what Bush Sr. didn't do - removed Saddam.

                There's also 9/11, which lead directly into Invasion of Afghanistan. Of course, 18 years later, US is still stuck in that mess. Oh, did I mention that we didn't touch Saudi Arabia where 90% of the hijackers, along with Bin Laden, came from?

                As for NATO - isolationism = losing global influence = in long term, bad for US. Yes, US cannot be World Police forever, but it's the price that US pays to be the top of the world. Don't want to pay the price? You lose the status of being #1.
                 
                aviationaware
                Posts: 2728
                Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 2:32 pm

                Reinhardt wrote:
                As a continent, Europe has more than enough Military might and expenditure, inc Nuclear Weapons.


                You did not address my argument. So it is okay that the German army is basically useless? That's not only unfair to the United States, it's also unfair Britain and France who have also have to partly make up for it.

                And when you look at countries like Poland and the Baltic nations, they clearly disagree with your notion that Europe can defend itself well. And they are the ones in the first line of defense against an overconfident Russia.

                And then there are total crackpots like the leader of Merkel's party who suggested the EU get a joint aircraft carrier. It's like, you aren't bad enough at wasting your own money on useless, broken down defense gear? Now you want to waste your money and then some on a totally useless vanity project?

                Germany is the shame of NATO and the fact that they consider any requests to get to 2% GDP defense spending as undue meddling in their internal affairs is shocking and a disgrace.
                 
                GalaxyFlyer
                Posts: 2971
                Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 3:42 pm

                Reinhardt wrote:
                aviationaware wrote:
                Reinhardt wrote:

                We're perfectly capable of looking after ourselves thanks. Take whatever military assets out you want.


                Considering you are probably German (judging by your name) that is a pretty ridiculous statement given about 80-90% of your armory is broken down and inoperable due to spending being too low to maintain it properly.


                British, but living in Germany.
                I've said it before, if you don't like how much money the US is spending on it's bases in Europe then remove them. If there is such a problem then perhaps if you left those countries would be forced to increase spending. Not that there is any appetite amoungst the population for this though.

                As a continent, Europe has more than enough Military might and expenditure, inc Nuclear Weapons.


                Do you really think, as a continent, Germans and Poles would stand for Brits and French using nukes east of the Rhine to stop a Russian invasion? Wars start when one side thinks their opponents can’t or won’t fight. Pretty good guess Western Europe can’t fight and and, likely won’t.

                GF
                 
                Reinhardt
                Posts: 168
                Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 3:52 pm

                aviationaware wrote:
                Reinhardt wrote:
                As a continent, Europe has more than enough Military might and expenditure, inc Nuclear Weapons.


                You did not address my argument. So it is okay that the German army is basically useless? That's not only unfair to the United States, it's also unfair Britain and France who have also have to partly make up for it.

                And when you look at countries like Poland and the Baltic nations, they clearly disagree with your notion that Europe can defend itself well. And they are the ones in the first line of defense against an overconfident Russia.

                And then there are total crackpots like the leader of Merkel's party who suggested the EU get a joint aircraft carrier. It's like, you aren't bad enough at wasting your own money on useless, broken down defense gear? Now you want to waste your money and then some on a totally useless vanity project?

                Germany is the shame of NATO and the fact that they consider any requests to get to 2% GDP defense spending as undue meddling in their internal affairs is shocking and a disgrace.


                There's two different conversations here. One, do I think if US voters think you are spending too much on Military based in Europe then yes I think you should pull out of here and spend the money on solving your domestic issues. But only if it's spent on issues (healthcare, infrastructure etc). If it's not spent at all, or put to a border wall or tax cuts, then keep on spending it on Military.

                Two, do I think Germany's + Itay's military is a joke, yes I do. As I've said before though, I just don't see a military threat tro Europe from Putin, and I believe what is in place Europe wide right now is sufficient. I of course worry about Ukraine and think more should be done but not militarily. All resources right now should be put into cyber warefare against him, since that is the route he is taking to de-stabilise the west and right now he is winning.
                 
                Reinhardt
                Posts: 168
                Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 3:58 pm

                GalaxyFlyer wrote:

                Do you really think, as a continent, Germans and Poles would stand for Brits and French using nukes east of the Rhine to stop a Russian invasion? Wars start when one side thinks their opponents can’t or won’t fight. Pretty good guess Western Europe can’t fight and and, likely won’t.

                GF


                Putin isn't going to invade Poland or Germany. So stop the nonsense.

                As I said above, if you, as a US tax payer are that fed up with apparently protecting Europe then please vote to change it. If it forces Germany to spend more then great. But don't constantly give us this, 'you owe us' stuff. You aren't the worlds policeman, a lot of Europe don't want you to be and don't need you to be. US foreign policy has caused enough problems in the last few decades.
                 
                GalaxyFlyer
                Posts: 2971
                Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 4:00 pm

                You won’t know what’s “sufficient” until it’s too late, but satellite surveillance, spycraft today is so advanced, surprise war in Europe is probably a long shot.

                Posters here want us to be the world’s policeman. The same was said in 1930, too. Dismissing Putin’s intentions out of hand is whistling past the graveyard. The last 75 years aren’t a guarantee of the next 75, past performance and all that.

                GF
                 
                Olddog
                Posts: 1017
                Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 4:05 pm

                Nato is a lame excuse for your military spending.
                You want to waste that money on your military complex until US citizens realize that that money could be better spent. But don't pretend it is for the european protection.
                With Trump it is obvious for everyone it is more a mafia type of "protection"
                 
                User avatar
                Aesma
                Posts: 11365
                Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Fri May 31, 2019 4:15 pm

                Lobbing nuclear ballistic missiles on allies' soil isn't exactly ideal, and I wouldn't expect it to be the first choice if Russia started invading an EU country, there would be first a battle in the air, conventional cruise missiles of all kinds would be used, then depending on the outcome a nuclear strike on the invading army as a last resort.

                Putin is many things but not crazy, nor unstable or experiencing dementia, unlike another leader I can think of, so I don't see him risking that. What would be the point anyway, it's not like the invaded people would just accept Russia's domination all over again !

                The cold war isn't coming back.
                New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
                 
                aviationaware
                Posts: 2728
                Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:35 am

                Reinhardt wrote:

                There's two different conversations here. One, do I think if US voters think you are spending too much on Military based in Europe then yes I think you should pull out of here and spend the money on solving your domestic issues. But only if it's spent on issues (healthcare, infrastructure etc). If it's not spent at all, or put to a border wall or tax cuts, then keep on spending it on Military.


                Wow. So you're basically saying you are okay with wasting other peoples money as long as it keeps it from being spent in ways that you don't ideologically agree with. What a supremely dumb argument.

                Reinhardt wrote:
                As I've said before though, I just don't see a military threat tro Europe from Putin, and I believe what is in place Europe wide right now is sufficient.


                You are silly. He just literally annexed a part of a European country because that country was weak and incapable of defending itself. Why do you think there's no threat on the more western parts of Europe yet for the same to happen? Because Putin knows that their combined military might outclasses his own. You are very deluded if you think that he wouldn't get more daring if the European countries lost a big part of their defence capabilities, and that's sadly what would happen if the US retreated from the continent. So to save the US tax payers this kind of money which we can no longer afford and don't want to either, the European nations just have to put up more money or they render NATO a complete leech-fest to the detriment of the United States.
                 
                Reinhardt
                Posts: 168
                Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:27 pm

                aviationaware wrote:

                Wow. So you're basically saying you are okay with wasting other peoples money as long as it keeps it from being spent in ways that you don't ideologically agree with. What a supremely dumb argument.


                It's your money, do what you want with it. I'm just adding in my opinion that if you don't do good with the money you save, then you may as well go on wasting it because it's the same thing. The US like many western nations has massive problems that are not being delt with. If saving a number of billions of $$ by not having military stationed in Europe saves the money fine, but IMO don't go throwing it at tax breaks for people who don't need it and leave you with tons more govenment debt. Or not solving the fact people go bankrupt through healthcare etc etc.


                aviationaware wrote:
                You are silly. He just literally annexed a part of a European country because that country was weak and incapable of defending itself. Why do you think there's no threat on the more western parts of Europe yet for the same to happen? Because Putin knows that their combined military might outclasses his own. You are very deluded if you think that he wouldn't get more daring if the European countries lost a big part of their defence capabilities, and that's sadly what would happen if the US retreated from the continent. So to save the US tax payers this kind of money which we can no longer afford and don't want to either, the European nations just have to put up more money or they render NATO a complete leech-fest to the detriment of the United States.


                Ukraine is a completely unique situation. It was part of the USSR, was in Putin's mind and many Russians still part of Russia. Unstable govenment for years, with high corruption, low strength military. Yes there are other ex USSR states but those are not in the same situation. Putin isn't stupid, and would not do what he did in the Ukraine to those. It's why he is funding right wing groups, has the St Petersburg factory of fake news etc etc. That's the way he destabilies the west. It's smart and a lot cheaper than military intervention.

                Well a few posters above who also don't reside in the US agree with me. If you want European NATO members to pay more, and the US in your mind shouldn't be stationed here and nothing else persuades European govenments to spend more, then pull out. Leave it to us. Perhaps that will change some people's minds. I don't think it will, but if nothing else works. Again don't take this as me saying I agree with this line of reasoning, I'm just saying it's one line of action to push EU members to pay more...because nothing else has worked right?
                 
                seb146
                Posts: 19830
                Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:01 pm

                People are still not understanding that the United States and NATO allies agreed to set contributions by 2024. That had already been agreed on. But, because it was done under Obama, the current occupant of the White House can not deal with it. He must erase all traces of Obama from history. Including treaties and agreements made 2009-2017.
                You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
                 
                LMP737
                Posts: 5877
                Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:25 pm

                aviationaware wrote:

                We would spend less if we wouldn't have to cover all the European freeloaders.


                So what does the two trillion dollars spent on the war in Iraq have to do with Europe? Or the billions upon billions in cost overruns on numerous DOD programs over the years. Ever look up the cost of having forces/bases in Europe compared to those overruns or the defense budget overall? Speaking of those bases a lot more US servicemen would be dead if it were not for bases like Landstuhl Regional Medical Center.
                Never take financial advice from co-workers.
                 
                GalaxyFlyer
                Posts: 2971
                Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:43 pm

                but IMO don't go throwing it at tax breaks for people who don't need it and leave you with tons more govenment debt.


                Oh, the average citizen is too stupid to manage his own money, give it to some bureaucrat to spend on his own pet project. No thanks, it’s my money, I’ll waste it my way.

                GF
                 
                Spar
                Posts: 183
                Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:58 pm

                aviationaware wrote:
                We would spend less if we wouldn't have to cover all the European freeloaders.

                What you are really saying here is that you want the Europeans to join the United States in a senseless arms race against imaginary enemies as the United States is doing. Using Russia as the boogieman is hypocritical when our current administration is in a love fest with them and has surrendered our national sovereignty by allowing them to meddle in our election process.

                Our policies towards and expectations of Europe are nonsensical.

                And our forces in Europe don't amount to all that much anyway. AFIK we only have three brigades of actual combat troops stationed there: the 2nd Cavalry Regiment in Vilseck Germany, the 12th Aviation Brigade in Ansbach Germany (2 battalions of Apaches) and in Poland there is the 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team from the 4th Infantry Division. Any other US military forces over there are there so that we can project force elsewhere.

                And as far as most of the Europeans are concerned, we can bring these units home if they become too burdensome. As an American, I find it embarrassing that another American is throwing this "freeloader" accusation around, I really wish you'd STFU.
                 
                aviationaware
                Posts: 2728
                Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:12 am

                Reinhardt wrote:
                Ukraine is a completely unique situation. It was part of the USSR, was in Putin's mind and many Russians still part of Russia.


                So were the Baltic states. They're next if you don't stop living in your dream world.

                Spar wrote:
                and in Poland there is the 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team from the 4th Infantry Division.


                Which has more combat ready MBTs than the entire German army. What a sad state of affairs.
                 
                Spar
                Posts: 183
                Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:20 am

                aviationaware wrote:
                Spar wrote:
                and in Poland there is the 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team from the 4th Infantry Division.


                Which has more combat ready MBTs than the entire German army. What a sad state of affairs.

                But that is really none of your business. Before you bitch about Germany you should keep in mind that they are making a huge effort to undo some of the horrendous damage that the United states did in that ill conceived expedition into the ME in 2003. They are doing what we should rightfully be doing. If I were a German, I would be more than a little upset at your attitude.
                 
                aviationaware
                Posts: 2728
                Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

                Re: GOP defies Trump and joins with Democrats on measure to block president from abandoning NATO

                Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:28 am

                Spar wrote:
                Before you bitch about Germany you should keep in mind that they are making a huge effort to undo some of the horrendous damage that the United states did in that ill conceived expedition into the ME in 2003. They are doing what we should rightfully be doing. If I were a German, I would be more than a little upset at your attitude.


                Really? Like what, for example? Also, I am not and never was in favor of the Iraq war.

                Who is online

                Users browsing this forum: Aesma, Baidu [Spider], greenjetav, Spar and 34 guests

                Popular Searches On Airliners.net

                Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

                Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

                Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

                Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

                Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

                Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

                Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

                Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

                Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

                Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

                Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

                Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

                Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

                Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

                Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos