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Aaron747
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Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 1:57 am

What does it say about this generation of political and business leaders that they are being called out by kids on the regular for coming up short on the future?

Aussie kids are doing climate strikes every Friday, Floridian kids have Youtube channels pleading for safeguarding their communities from rising seas, young people in the Solomon Islands are calling attention to their homes literally disappearing over the last few years and now Greta Thunberg once again goes before the EU elite with a punch to the jaw. These kids are inspiring and heroic.

Thunberg’s speech yesterday in Vienna, brave, frustrated and mature beyond her years:

https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=645581262534214&_rdr
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu May 30, 2019 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stl07
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 2:08 am

The kids care because they will have to live with the screwups of politicians now
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DL717
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 2:27 am

Because they are kids. When you’re a kid you think you know it all.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 2:32 am

Who exactly is responsible? Why are Western societies the only ones ever blamed? Why don't they ever demand compliance from China, India, and the middle east? There is no data that can prove that such actions can slow climate change. They should go eat a Tide pod and turn up their K-POP.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 2:33 am

DL717 wrote:
Because they are kids. When you’re a kid you think you know it all.


you perhaps missed the point, they don't think they know all, they just point out the people in power should act on the basis what we know.
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 3:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Who exactly is responsible? Why are Western societies the only ones ever blamed? Why don't they ever demand compliance from China, India, and the middle east? There is no data that can prove that such actions can slow climate change. They should go eat a Tide pod and turn up their K-POP.


Thunberg is talking about all of humanity - not Western society - never heard a country’s name or ‘Western society’ once in her speech. As usual you made assumptions instead of listening.
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 3:15 am

DL717 wrote:
Because they are kids. When you’re a kid you think you know it all.


And you know something they don’t...?
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aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 3:41 am

Dutchy wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Because they are kids. When you’re a kid you think you know it all.


you perhaps missed the point, they don't think they know all, they just point out the people in power should act on the basis what we know.


That's a fallacy.

Now I don't want to get into the argument whether or not humans are responsible for climate change or even only a major driving force behind it. I don't buy it and I don't think there is any evidence for it, but it's actually totally irrelevant.

Even if we consider for a moment the possibility that climate change is entirely attributable to humans, it is clear that it would require a concerted worldwide approach to the problem and a disciplined reduction of emissions from everyone on the planet.

Now, it is more than clear that we won't get China, India and Russia to participate voluntarily. Those 3 countries combined represent roughly half of all worldwide CO2 emissions. And there are a lot of other countries, including all of Africa, where a concerted effort would fall flat.

So it would be only the US and EU, and maybe a few immaterial others, fighting a Don Qijote's fight with little to no impact.
In the process, this would lead to the following negative, unintended outcomes:
1) They would sacrifice their economic prosperity
2) Because of 1), economies like China's would take their place and very likely expand their emissions even more than they would do if we retained that economic advantage.

Meanwhile, climate change is undeniably happening, so at some point we will need our resources to fend off the inevitable consequences of rising sea levels and other issues related to changing conditions. But by then we will have squandered all our wealth in the futile attempt to unilaterally repair the climate and there will be no resources left to build sea walls and other useful infrastructure.

Really, a great idea. Let's do it!

One big problem with the "progressive" left is that they rarely if ever consider unintended negative consequences of their grand schemes. That same observation is true for all the social policies they at pushing. If something is working well 90% of the time, it is very difficult to improve it but very easy to mess it up. That is an insight that most self proclaimed progressives seem to be devoid of.
 
seb146
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:01 am

aviationaware wrote:
That's a fallacy.

Now I don't want to get into the argument whether or not humans are responsible for climate change or even only a major driving force behind it. I don't buy it and I don't think there is any evidence for it, but it's actually totally irrelevant.

Even if we consider for a moment the possibility that climate change is entirely attributable to humans, it is clear that it would require a concerted worldwide approach to the problem and a disciplined reduction of emissions from everyone on the planet.

Now, it is more than clear that we won't get China, India and Russia to participate voluntarily. Those 3 countries combined represent roughly half of all worldwide CO2 emissions. And there are a lot of other countries, including all of Africa, where a concerted effort would fall flat.

So it would be only the US and EU, and maybe a few immaterial others, fighting a Don Qijote's fight with little to no impact.
In the process, this would lead to the following negative, unintended outcomes:
1) They would sacrifice their economic prosperity
2) Because of 1), economies like China's would take their place and very likely expand their emissions even more than they would do if we retained that economic advantage.

Meanwhile, climate change is undeniably happening, so at some point we will need our resources to fend off the inevitable consequences of rising sea levels and other issues related to changing conditions. But by then we will have squandered all our wealth in the futile attempt to unilaterally repair the climate and there will be no resources left to build sea walls and other useful infrastructure.

Really, a great idea. Let's do it!

One big problem with the "progressive" left is that they rarely if ever consider unintended negative consequences of their grand schemes. That same observation is true for all the social policies they at pushing. If something is working well 90% of the time, it is very difficult to improve it but very easy to mess it up. That is an insight that most self proclaimed progressives seem to be devoid of.


So your answer is do nothing? Screw over those who come later because the "progressive left" and three countries? charming. The next generation is at least trying to do something, even if it will not work. What is wrong with that? "Progressives" are helping them. What is wrong with that?
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aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:21 am

seb146 wrote:

So your answer is do nothing? Screw over those who come later because the "progressive left" and three countries? charming. The next generation is at least trying to do something, even if it will not work. What is wrong with that? "Progressives" are helping them. What is wrong with that?


I guess you didn't read the last part of my comment because you were so offended by what preceded it. Read it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:31 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Because they are kids. When you’re a kid you think you know it all.


you perhaps missed the point, they don't think they know all, they just point out the people in power should act on the basis what we know.


That's a fallacy.

Now I don't want to get into the argument whether or not humans are responsible for climate change or even only a major driving force behind it. I don't buy it and I don't think there is any evidence for it, but it's actually totally irrelevant.

Even if we consider for a moment the possibility that climate change is entirely attributable to humans, it is clear that it would require a concerted worldwide approach to the problem and a disciplined reduction of emissions from everyone on the planet.

Now, it is more than clear that we won't get China, India and Russia to participate voluntarily. Those 3 countries combined represent roughly half of all worldwide CO2 emissions. And there are a lot of other countries, including all of Africa, where a concerted effort would fall flat.

So it would be only the US and EU, and maybe a few immaterial others, fighting a Don Qijote's fight with little to no impact.
In the process, this would lead to the following negative, unintended outcomes:
1) They would sacrifice their economic prosperity
2) Because of 1), economies like China's would take their place and very likely expand their emissions even more than they would do if we retained that economic advantage.

Meanwhile, climate change is undeniably happening, so at some point we will need our resources to fend off the inevitable consequences of rising sea levels and other issues related to changing conditions. But by then we will have squandered all our wealth in the futile attempt to unilaterally repair the climate and there will be no resources left to build sea walls and other useful infrastructure.

Really, a great idea. Let's do it!

One big problem with the "progressive" left is that they rarely if ever consider unintended negative consequences of their grand schemes. That same observation is true for all the social policies they at pushing. If something is working well 90% of the time, it is very difficult to improve it but very easy to mess it up. That is an insight that most self proclaimed progressives seem to be devoid of.


Much of what you say is true - but young Greta’s point was not lost either. We are lacking awareness of the totality of impact - not only rising seas, but droughts, famines, relocations of populations, and publuc health impacts from pollution and plastic contamination are on the horizon, some are already here. Communication of these things is key, as time runs short - if the costs of worsening public health and crop yields are the best incentive for getting uncooperative countries on board, so be it - that’s what needs to be said. So far most of what’s being said is empty - hence her emphasis on the need to call the situation a global emergency.

We have the ability to transition to vertical indoor agriculture - it has already been done in
small scale in a number of places. We have the ability to transition to synthetic woods and meats, reducing methane emissions and rain forest clear cutting by offending nations. We have already shown biofuel replacements for hydrocarbons are viable if production can be scaled. We are able to do many things - it’s simply a matter of will.
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seb146
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:37 am

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So your answer is do nothing? Screw over those who come later because the "progressive left" and three countries? charming. The next generation is at least trying to do something, even if it will not work. What is wrong with that? "Progressives" are helping them. What is wrong with that?


I guess you didn't read the last part of my comment because you were so offended by what preceded it. Read it.


Right. You put down "progressives" but that is nothing. I guess. Maybe I need to read it with a different tone of voice? Please tell us how, by berating "progressives" we are on the same page?

We need to leave a better world for Betty White and Kieth Richards than what they were given.....
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aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:49 am

seb146 wrote:
So your answer is do nothing? Screw over those who come later because the "progressive left" and three countries? charming. The next generation is at least trying to do something, even if it will not work. What is wrong with that? "Progressives" are helping them. What is wrong with that?


*Sigh* - Okay. I will answer. No. You're not helping them. You are ruining their future. Don't get me wrong, I do think most people pushing for a better answer on climate change have good intentions, but as I said there are unintended consequences to be considered and frankly those are far more likely to occur than the ultimate goal of the carbon emissions reduction crowd.

It's in our best interest to retain our economic advantage to be able to finance mitigating infrastructure when it comes to it (and the question is always when, not if).
 
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:51 am

I presume these same kids will now be persuading their parents to forego their annual family holidays abroad and insisting on staycations instead. Not to mention giving up their smartphones:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ta-centres
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:54 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I presume these same kids will now be persuading their parents to forego their annual family holidays abroad and insisting on staycations instead. Not to mention giving up their smartphones:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ta-centres


Rare metals in handheld electronics and passenger aircraft emissions are a drop in the bucket compared to rainforest clearing for livestock in Indonesia/Brazil and the general global appetite for horizontal agriculture. Emphasis should be on the top priorities.
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seb146
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 5:48 am

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So your answer is do nothing? Screw over those who come later because the "progressive left" and three countries? charming. The next generation is at least trying to do something, even if it will not work. What is wrong with that? "Progressives" are helping them. What is wrong with that?


*Sigh* - Okay. I will answer. No. You're not helping them. You are ruining their future. Don't get me wrong, I do think most people pushing for a better answer on climate change have good intentions, but as I said there are unintended consequences to be considered and frankly those are far more likely to occur than the ultimate goal of the carbon emissions reduction crowd.

It's in our best interest to retain our economic advantage to be able to finance mitigating infrastructure when it comes to it (and the question is always when, not if).


So, working to make this world better for future generations is bad? That sounds like what you are saying. Giving future generations clean water and clean air is bad?

We are done. Climate change takes a very long time to correct. I don't know what "unintended consequences" you are talking about. You keep saying that with nothing to show. More plants? Saving species? Learning from the past that more people is bad? Or is it simply a "slippery slope" argument with zero proof?
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 6:13 am

seb146 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So your answer is do nothing? Screw over those who come later because the "progressive left" and three countries? charming. The next generation is at least trying to do something, even if it will not work. What is wrong with that? "Progressives" are helping them. What is wrong with that?


*Sigh* - Okay. I will answer. No. You're not helping them. You are ruining their future. Don't get me wrong, I do think most people pushing for a better answer on climate change have good intentions, but as I said there are unintended consequences to be considered and frankly those are far more likely to occur than the ultimate goal of the carbon emissions reduction crowd.

It's in our best interest to retain our economic advantage to be able to finance mitigating infrastructure when it comes to it (and the question is always when, not if).


So, working to make this world better for future generations is bad? That sounds like what you are saying. Giving future generations clean water and clean air is bad?

We are done. Climate change takes a very long time to correct. I don't know what "unintended consequences" you are talking about. You keep saying that with nothing to show. More plants? Saving species? Learning from the past that more people is bad? Or is it simply a "slippery slope" argument with zero proof?


No proof needed - his logical supposition was that draconian actions, if they impact only developed economies, will erase the budget resources needed to mitigate impacts and transition to other technologies. It was pretty clear what that implies as far as ‘unintended consequences’ down the road.
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Scorpio
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 6:27 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I presume these same kids will now be persuading their parents to forego their annual family holidays abroad and insisting on staycations instead. Not to mention giving up their smartphones:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ta-centres

That's the typical BS strawman response. These kids aren't advocating going back to the stone age and abolishing all technology that could possibly contribute to pollution. They're merely aiming a little bit higher than the politicians are right now. They're asking the environment is taken seriously and that measures are taken to reduce CO2 emissions, they're not asking for cars and planes to be banned. They're asking that more is invested in sustainable alternatives, they're not saying we should abolish technology.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 7:01 am

Aaron747 wrote:
No proof needed - his logical supposition was that draconian actions, if they impact only developed economies, will erase the budget resources needed to mitigate impacts and transition to other technologies. It was pretty clear what that implies as far as ‘unintended consequences’ down the road.


Bingo. That and the pretty self-explanatory notion that any CO2 saved in a developed nation is more than offset by additional emissions in developing countries, therefore saving CO2 unilaterally only in the west is counter-productive.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 8:03 am

aviationaware wrote:
Now I don't want to get into the argument whether or not humans are responsible for climate change or even only a major driving force behind it. I don't buy it and I don't think there is any evidence for it, but it's actually totally irrelevant.


Okey, okey. Stop you here. You are coming out as a science denier. It is a science fact. If you do not accept that, how can we talk about anything else?

Image

Just like you do not accept the fact that especially China is pushing for the energy transition (they have a pollution problem and don't have huge fossil fuel reserves themselves) and the fact that much of the pollution China does is because you and I in the western world want our goods cheap, so they produce for the rest of the world.

But more importantly, you seem to be very self-centered, I do not want to change my lifestyle, so I am more than prepared to jeopardize in the immediate future the lives of people I do not know in regions whom are affected now, in the medium term it might affect me slightly and in the long term the lives of my children and grandchildren, but who cares, I will be dead by than.

BTW, which of the following conspiracies theories do you believe as well.

Image
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Jalap
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 9:00 am

aviationaware wrote:
One big problem with the "progressive" left is that they rarely if ever consider unintended negative consequences of their grand schemes. That same observation is true for all the social policies they at pushing. If something is working well 90% of the time, it is very difficult to improve it but very easy to mess it up. That is an insight that most self proclaimed progressives seem to be devoid of.

So basically, you fear the negative impact of more regulation.
No, I think the most regulated industry in the world could very well be the aviation industry. Safety regulations, procedures, this is extreme in aviation. Regulations even get ever more stringent. Still the industry thrives.

If enough countries had leaders brave enough to work on global regulations, then there is no reason to assume this would have large negative consequenses. Of course, if some world leaders just deny that human activity is a key factor, then we’ll definitely go nowhere and things will only get worse for the next generations.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 am

Jalap wrote:

If enough countries had leaders brave enough to work on global regulations, then there is no reason to assume this would have large negative consequenses.


Right, that's the consequence of what I said. But there aren't enough countries like that, and therefore unilateral action would have those negative consequences.

Jalap wrote:

Of course, if some world leaders just deny that human activity is a key factor, then we’ll definitely go nowhere and things will only get worse for the next generations.


Well good luck with that I guess. There is no proof that humans cause climate change. All there is is a very broad correlation that is observable over a minuscule timeframe in the global context. A complex issue like the climate can only be studied with multivariate analysis, and all multivariate analysis has fallen flat on that topic, it's been like that for years. If you want world changing decisions made on what's basically not more than a whim, good luck. I certainly won't follow you.
 
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 9:56 am

aviationaware wrote:
There is no proof that humans cause climate change.


Yes and god created a flat earth just to please the US religious belief :banghead:
 
Scorpio
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 10:19 am

aviationaware wrote:
Well good luck with that I guess. There is no proof that humans cause climate change. All there is is a very broad correlation that is observable over a minuscule timeframe in the global context. A complex issue like the climate can only be studied with multivariate analysis, and all multivariate analysis has fallen flat on that topic, it's been like that for years. If you want world changing decisions made on what's basically not more than a whim, good luck. I certainly won't follow you.

I would love to know what qualifications you have that make you think you know this better than the actual climate scientists.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 10:24 am

Scorpio wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well good luck with that I guess. There is no proof that humans cause climate change. All there is is a very broad correlation that is observable over a minuscule timeframe in the global context. A complex issue like the climate can only be studied with multivariate analysis, and all multivariate analysis has fallen flat on that topic, it's been like that for years. If you want world changing decisions made on what's basically not more than a whim, good luck. I certainly won't follow you.

I would love to know what qualifications you have that make you think you know this better than the actual climate scientists.


Good God not this long debunked "99% of scientists agree on this" crap again.
 
Scorpio
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 10:26 am

aviationaware wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well good luck with that I guess. There is no proof that humans cause climate change. All there is is a very broad correlation that is observable over a minuscule timeframe in the global context. A complex issue like the climate can only be studied with multivariate analysis, and all multivariate analysis has fallen flat on that topic, it's been like that for years. If you want world changing decisions made on what's basically not more than a whim, good luck. I certainly won't follow you.

I would love to know what qualifications you have that make you think you know this better than the actual climate scientists.


Good God not this long debunked "99% of scientists agree on this" crap again.

So that's a 'none' then, is it?
 
Jalap
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 11:01 am

aviationaware wrote:
Jalap wrote:

If enough countries had leaders brave enough to work on global regulations, then there is no reason to assume this would have large negative consequenses.


Right, that's the consequence of what I said. But there aren't enough countries like that, and therefore unilateral action would have those negative consequences.

Yet I gave an example where regulation still allows an industry to thrive.
Also, youth coming on the streets for climate is growing to a global movement. They don’t demand unilateral action, just any action would be pretty much OK I’m sure.
So, if some global institution was to work on global regulations, then you’ll be a supporter?
(Regardless if you believe in humans being the prime factor or not, I’m sure you’ll agree that working on a cleaner world is a noble objective)
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 11:29 am

I would not blame politicians for this.

any individual could willingly give up meat, dairy, air travel, driving, intent to consume the latest tech, but we elect not to.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 11:39 am

Jalap wrote:
Yet I gave an example where regulation still allows an industry to thrive.


A very bad example if I may say so. Because that certainly isn't unilateral regulation, but it's regulated everywhere more or less the same way. That's something entirely different.

Jalap wrote:
Also, youth coming on the streets for climate is growing to a global movement. They don’t demand unilateral action, just any action would be pretty much OK I’m sure.


As I am trying to say here, without much success it seems, any action is not ok because it is likely to have unintended consequences that could severely impair uns when the time comes.

Jalap wrote:
So, if some global institution was to work on global regulations, then you’ll be a supporter?
(Regardless if you believe in humans being the prime factor or not, I’m sure you’ll agree that working on a cleaner world is a noble objective)


Certainly not. I abhor regulation of any kind. I believe in individualism, not collectivism. Like I am sure I said somewhere along the lines, I am much in favor of getting rid of low tech fossil fuel burning. But that's not because I want to save CO2 emissions, but because I am generally in favor of clean, breathable air. And I also believe technological progress benefits our society. That's all really.

One very good example of how bad regulation can be is Germany, where coal mining is subsidized by the government. Yes, by the same government that accused Trump of nihilism because he left the Paris Accord. Right. How about we get rid of all subsidies, including coal but also solar and wind, and then see where it gets us? That would be beneficial not only to our society but also the climate if you believe in man made climate change. But that's not going to happen, because politicians are stupid.
 
JJJ
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 11:48 am

aviationaware wrote:
One very good example of how bad regulation can be is Germany, where coal mining is subsidized by the government. Yes, by the same government that accused Trump of nihilism because he left the Paris Accord.


Where do you get your news? Germany closed their last hard coal mines last year, and lignite doesn't receive subsidies from the German government.

There's a coal exit commission which is planning the whole thing.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:00 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
I would not blame politicians for this.

any individual could willingly give up meat, dairy, air travel, driving, intent to consume the latest tech, but we elect not to.


'Giving up' those things is not what's necessary. They need to transition into and take different forms, and there are many approaches already available for that, as I indicated in reply 11.

Young Greta's point is not to 'blame' politicians but to suggest their leadership and effective communication are non-existent, as there remains a serious awareness gap of the expected range of climate impact in the general population. That's precisely why discussions like this one need to happen with regularity, and rapidly.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu May 30, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aviationaware
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:07 pm

JJJ wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
One very good example of how bad regulation can be is Germany, where coal mining is subsidized by the government. Yes, by the same government that accused Trump of nihilism because he left the Paris Accord.


Where do you get your news? Germany closed their last hard coal mines last year, and lignite doesn't receive subsidies from the German government.

There's a coal exit commission which is planning the whole thing.


Not all subsidies are direct cash payments. Lignite in Germany is receiving massive indirect subsidies.
 
Magog
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:14 pm

Getting this thread back on track...

It's absurd to take direction from children on matters such as this. There is a reason why children are still in school. These children are being used because it is seen as evil in and of itself to go after children. So they get to throw out their message and anyone who questions them is instantly attacked for doing so. It's a classic appeal to emotion, which is not how these issues should be decided.

My two cents... Humankind is most definitely bringing about climate change. That said, we all know deep down inside that aviationaware is correct. We simply do not have the global will to make sufficient changes - both on a macro and micro level. Heck, even just on this forum it's the ultimate hypocrisy to wax poetic about the aviation industry but then shout about global warming. People aren't willing to make meaningful changes. Driving a Prius while living in a McMansion just doesn't cut it. And most governments aren't willing to make sufficient changes. The good news is that humankind is extremely good at developing technology to figure its way out of a problem. I wouldn't write us off quite so quickly.
Last edited by Magog on Thu May 30, 2019 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:16 pm

Once the youth of today put down their mobile phones, clean up after their rallies and stop eating mass produced junkfood served in plastic, I might take them a bit seriously. Until then all I hear is a bunch of self-obsessed, spoiled, little brats who want the adults to change their ways, whilst they carry on getting their latest electronic fix and slurp designer coffee from a plastic straw, usually whilst taking a selfie on an exotic location.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:20 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Good God not this long debunked "99% of scientists agree on this" crap again.


Yes, indeed it is 99.99% of the climate scientist say this in peer-reviewed articles. But hey, why let facts let get into your way of thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientifi ... ate_change indeed, Wikipedia isn't trust worthy, perhaps NASA is?

Perhaps statistics are your thing: Evidence for man-made global warming has reached a “gold standard” level of certainty. This means that the chance of Global Warming is not caused by human activity - e.g. you are right - are less than 1 in 3,500,000.

You can continue to make a fool of yourself or you can accept science fact and let's see what we are actually going to do about it.
Last edited by Dutchy on Thu May 30, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:21 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Once the youth of today put down their mobile phones, clean up after their rallies and stop eating mass produced junkfood served in plastic, I might take them a bit seriously. Until then all I hear is a bunch of self-obsessed, spoiled, little brats who want the adults to change their ways, whilst they carry on getting their latest electronic fix and slurp designer coffee from a plastic straw, usually whilst taking a selfie on an exotic location.


I think you'll find young people quite different from your above stereotype in this recent 60 Minutes Australia piece about strikers in Australia and the US:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FspRnqIGMu8
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Dutchy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:22 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Once the youth of today put down their mobile phones, clean up after their rallies and stop eating mass produced junkfood served in plastic, I might take them a bit seriously. Until then all I hear is a bunch of self-obsessed, spoiled, little brats who want the adults to change their ways, whilst they carry on getting their latest electronic fix and slurp designer coffee from a plastic straw, usually whilst taking a selfie on an exotic location.


Strange, I hear those adults complaining about these kids that they do not want to change their way of life and damn all for the generations following them.
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JJJ
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:46 pm

aviationaware wrote:
JJJ wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
One very good example of how bad regulation can be is Germany, where coal mining is subsidized by the government. Yes, by the same government that accused Trump of nihilism because he left the Paris Accord.


Where do you get your news? Germany closed their last hard coal mines last year, and lignite doesn't receive subsidies from the German government.

There's a coal exit commission which is planning the whole thing.


Not all subsidies are direct cash payments. Lignite in Germany is receiving massive indirect subsidies.


Such as? Being in the same country as the power plants doesn't really count.

All fossil fuels have been penalised vs renewables in the EU ETS system, but lignite is still profitable.....and even in this case, it's going to be phased out in less than 2 decades despite how impopular it's going to be in the coal producing regions.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 12:48 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I would not blame politicians for this.

any individual could willingly give up meat, dairy, air travel, driving, intent to consume the latest tech, but we elect not to.


'Giving up' those things is not what's necessary. They need to transition into and take different forms, and there are many approaches already available for that, as I indicated in reply 11.

Young Greta's point is not to 'blame' politicians but to suggest their leadership and effective communication are non-existent, as there remains a serious awareness gap of the expected range of climate impact in the general population. That's precisely why discussions like this one need to happen with regularity, and rapidly.


some are calling on it.

That is the problem. It is all well and good suggesting things like a Green New Deal, with supporters not actually being clear on what a Green New Deal is.
 
slider
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 pm

The leftist indoctrination is working quite to plan.
 
Jalap
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 1:07 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Yet I gave an example where regulation still allows an industry to thrive.


A very bad example if I may say so. Because that certainly isn't unilateral regulation, but it's regulated everywhere more or less the same way. That's something entirely different.

Jalap wrote:
Also, youth coming on the streets for climate is growing to a global movement. They don’t demand unilateral action, just any action would be pretty much OK I’m sure.


As I am trying to say here, without much success it seems, any action is not ok because it is likely to have unintended consequences that could severely impair uns when the time comes.


First you state that aviation is a bad example because it’s regulated more or less the same way everywhere. While I was, without much success it seems, trying to state that environmental issues best be regulated globally. The only unintended consequence would probably be an increased price for certain goods. Just like flying would probably be cheaper without all that regulation.

And by the way, it’s been done often before, like banning lead in gasoline. Surely few people can be opposed to that kind of regulation.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 1:54 pm

Jalap wrote:
And by the way, it’s been done often before, like banning lead in gasoline. Surely few people can be opposed to that kind of regulation.


If anything the banning of lead is a perfect example of how not to repeat a mitigation process. A substance with clear and obvious health impacts since the early 1900s was routinely lobbied for by industry groups that suppressed negative data and led to multi-decade delays in reduction of use. Even after the EPA got involved in the early 70s, a progressive ban wasn't completed until the late 90s in Europe and North America, and Japan was first to a developed country ban in 1986. It is already 60 years running now since Keeling's data on atmospheric concentrations was first collected, 30 years since confirmation of observed impacts (regardless of whether one believes they are anthropogenic) and we're nowhere near any kind of consensus on mitigation.
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Aesma
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 2:31 pm

In less than 10 years, probably sooner, the EU will have a carbon tax on everything. Other countries will or will not follow, but their products will get taxed if they won't.

If there are sensible leaders in power when that happens, then they will, otherwise I guess it will be another trade war. Or maybe Trump's trade wars will have already killed global trade, in which case he will have done lots for the environment, even though he didn't intend to.
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seb146
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 4:47 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

*Sigh* - Okay. I will answer. No. You're not helping them. You are ruining their future. Don't get me wrong, I do think most people pushing for a better answer on climate change have good intentions, but as I said there are unintended consequences to be considered and frankly those are far more likely to occur than the ultimate goal of the carbon emissions reduction crowd.

It's in our best interest to retain our economic advantage to be able to finance mitigating infrastructure when it comes to it (and the question is always when, not if).


So, working to make this world better for future generations is bad? That sounds like what you are saying. Giving future generations clean water and clean air is bad?

We are done. Climate change takes a very long time to correct. I don't know what "unintended consequences" you are talking about. You keep saying that with nothing to show. More plants? Saving species? Learning from the past that more people is bad? Or is it simply a "slippery slope" argument with zero proof?


No proof needed - his logical supposition was that draconian actions, if they impact only developed economies, will erase the budget resources needed to mitigate impacts and transition to other technologies. It was pretty clear what that implies as far as ‘unintended consequences’ down the road.


There are hundreds of cancer spreading machines.... I mean... windmills... all across the Columbia Basin of Oregon and Washington. Those components are built in other countries. Why not build them here? We have idle factories all across this country. People willing to work in those factories to produce renewable energy sources. Maybe that is the "unintended consequences" s/he is referring to? The collapse of other economies if the United States becomes dependent on us alone?
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 5:22 pm

A call for some simple humility—human life just isn’t that important in the grand scheme of things. 6,000 years of recorded history isn’t a blink in the 13 billion years since the Big Bang and 4.5 billion years since the Earth formed. Based on the birth rate falling well below replacement, we’ve given up on the future already. Going Hell in petroleum fueled handcart.

Paul Ehrlich in the 60s said we were doomed to starvation by the 80s, it was settled science that man would outrun his ability to feed himself. How’d that work out?



Gf
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 5:22 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Rare metals in handheld electronics and passenger aircraft emissions are a drop in the bucket compared to rainforest clearing for livestock in Indonesia/Brazil and the general global appetite for horizontal agriculture. Emphasis should be on the top priorities.

But we're being lectured to daily to reduce our carbon footprint by every means possible. And those lecturing have to lead by example if they are to be taken seriously. There's no point in finger wagging at others if you're not prepared to make sacrifices yourself.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 5:29 pm

Scorpio wrote:
That's the typical BS strawman response. These kids aren't advocating going back to the stone age and abolishing all technology that could possibly contribute to pollution. They're merely aiming a little bit higher than the politicians are right now. They're asking the environment is taken seriously and that measures are taken to reduce CO2 emissions, they're not asking for cars and planes to be banned. They're asking that more is invested in sustainable alternatives, they're not saying we should abolish technology.

They should lead by example if they want to be taken seriously, and if they're serious about climate change. Otherwise they'll be just seen as jumping on the bandwagon de jour, which I suspect a lot, if not the majority, are doing.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 6:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
A call for some simple humility—human life just isn’t that important in the grand scheme of things. 6,000 years of recorded history isn’t a blink in the 13 billion years since the Big Bang and 4.5 billion years since the Earth formed. Based on the birth rate falling well below replacement, we’ve given up on the future already. Going Hell in petroleum fueled handcart.

Paul Ehrlich in the 60s said we were doomed to starvation by the 80s, it was settled science that man would outrun his ability to feed himself. How’d that work out?



Gf


Correct, but for human life, human life is quite important.
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Dutchy
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 6:09 pm

slider wrote:
The leftist indoctrination is working quite to plan.



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I didn't know science was leftish.
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stratclub
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Re: Kids Calling Out Leadership Failure on Climate

Thu May 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Scorpio wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well good luck with that I guess. There is no proof that humans cause climate change. All there is is a very broad correlation that is observable over a minuscule timeframe in the global context. A complex issue like the climate can only be studied with multivariate analysis, and all multivariate analysis has fallen flat on that topic, it's been like that for years. If you want world changing decisions made on what's basically not more than a whim, good luck. I certainly won't follow you.

I would love to know what qualifications you have that make you think you know this better than the actual climate scientists.

Do you mean the same climate scientists that every single climate model prediction for the last 30 years has been wrong or do you mean climate scientists that don't have a political/monetary incentive to put forth solutions that will make no difference while making some people filthy rich?

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