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Dieuwer
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Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Fri May 31, 2019 9:47 pm

In 1930, raising tariffs across the board hurt the U.S. economy.


https://www.history.com/news/trade-war- ... oot-hawley

Just like Hoover did in 1930, Trump is now slapping tariffs left-and-right on everything in sight. Soon enough, this will hurt the US economy as people who work in industries that require large imports (automotive, retail, etc.) start losing their jobs.
Perhaps Donald never heard of "It's the Economy, Stupid", but I doubt that the unemployed are gonna vote for Trump. Especially if the unemployment rate skyrockets to 10+% by 2020.

So just like Hoover, Trump will be a one-time president.

Thoughts?
 
Ken777
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Fri May 31, 2019 10:03 pm

Trump is many things. Bully, Business Bankrupt Failure, etc., but ignorance of his actions as President is really at the top of the list of how incompetent he really is. While our economy is strong (outside of the poor and minimum wage folks) it is also fragile in areas that have benefitted from imports. China banning exports to the US of rare earth metals will be a disaster. If Mexico decides to ban the temporary export of agriculture workers during the harvest season is another area where we are at risk for our farmers and in the market place.

Because of our potential risks (which Trump doesn't understand) we could see a repeat of tumbling into another Great Recession.
 
Magog
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Fri May 31, 2019 10:32 pm

So far Trump has threatened tariffs but his track record on actually following through with his threats is not so good.
 
Magog
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Fri May 31, 2019 10:34 pm

Ken777 wrote:
Trump is many things. Bully, Business Bankrupt Failure, etc., but ignorance of his actions as President is really at the top of the list of how incompetent he really is. While our economy is strong (outside of the poor and minimum wage folks) it is also fragile in areas that have benefitted from imports. China banning exports to the US of rare earth metals will be a disaster. If Mexico decides to ban the temporary export of agriculture workers during the harvest season is another area where we are at risk for our farmers and in the market place.

Because of our potential risks (which Trump doesn't understand) we could see a repeat of tumbling into another Great Recession.

If only Dems had let him build the wall.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:54 am

No. Hoover was at least presidential and didn't throw hissy fits.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
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jdstJD
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:26 am

Ken777 wrote:
Trump is many things. Bully, Business Bankrupt Failure, etc., but ignorance of his actions as President is really at the top of the list of how incompetent he really is. While our economy is strong (outside of the poor and minimum wage folks) it is also fragile in areas that have benefitted from imports. China banning exports to the US of rare earth metals will be a disaster. If Mexico decides to ban the temporary export of agriculture workers during the harvest season is another area where we are at risk for our farmers and in the market place.

Because of our potential risks (which Trump doesn't understand) we could see a repeat of tumbling into another Great Recession.


Agreed. Couldn’t have said this any better.
Lawyer, frequent air traveler and aviation enthusiast.
 
Redd
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:44 pm

Magog wrote:
So far Trump has threatened tariffs but his track record on actually following through with his threats is not so good.



Not following through?
In July 2018, the Trump administration announced it would use a Great Depression-era program, the Commodity Credit Corporation, to pay farmers up to $12 billion. This government assistance program aims to make up a shortfall as farmers lose sales abroad due to the trade war with China and retaliatory tariffs from the European Union and other states.[18] After trade talks with China ended without agreement in May 2019, Trump increased the direct payments by $14.5 billion, plus another $1.6 billion in related aid.

Between President Trump's 2017 inauguration and 2019, the U.S.'s trade deficit had grown by $119 billion. In March 2019, the U.S. Department of Commerce stated that in 2018 the trade deficit reached $621 billion, the highest it had been since 2008

According to an analysis by Peterson Institute for International Economics economists, American businesses and consumers paid more than $900,000 a year for each job that was created or saved as a result of the Trump administration's tariffs on steel and aluminum

Analysis conducted by CNBC in May 2019 found that Trump "enacted tariffs equivalent to one of the largest tax increases in decades,

 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:44 pm

Someone has to show China the door after they have been abusing their WTO membership for 2 decades while breaking each and every trade rule they could possibly come across. Otherwise they will just continue to rape us.

If that means Trump will not get re-elected, so be it; as long as he is not replaced by one of the Wall Street whores like Biden who will go back to allowing China to eat our lunch.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:56 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Someone has to show China the door after they have been abusing their WTO membership for 2 decades while breaking each and every trade rule they could possibly come across. Otherwise they will just continue to rape us.

If that means Trump will not get re-elected, so be it; as long as he is not replaced by one of the Wall Street whores like Biden who will go back to allowing China to eat our lunch.


Sorry to burst your bubble, lot of Wall Street guys or whores if you will, in president Turmp's administration. Or doesn't that count because it is Trump?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:57 pm

aviationaware wrote:
If that means Trump will not get re-elected, so be it; as long as he is not replaced by one of the Wall Street whores like Biden who will go back to allowing China to eat our lunch.


Actually, we should encourage China to eat our lunch - especially our soybeans. The have been importing over $5 billion a year, all of which becomes questionable after the man-child's latest temper tantrum...

:roll:
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aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Someone has to show China the door after they have been abusing their WTO membership for 2 decades while breaking each and every trade rule they could possibly come across. Otherwise they will just continue to rape us.

If that means Trump will not get re-elected, so be it; as long as he is not replaced by one of the Wall Street whores like Biden who will go back to allowing China to eat our lunch.


Sorry to burst your bubble, lot of Wall Street guys or whores if you will, in president Turmp's administration. Or doesn't that count because it is Trump?


Sorry to burst your bubble, but Wall Street is heavily tilting Democratic and has been for a number of years now. The Wall Street guys in Trump's administration aren't exactly popular on Wall Street. And they certainly haven't moved any big decisions in Wall Street's favor, so they don't seem to be the swamp creatures you are making off them.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:50 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Someone has to show China the door after they have been abusing their WTO membership for 2 decades while breaking each and every trade rule they could possibly come across. Otherwise they will just continue to rape us.

If that means Trump will not get re-elected, so be it; as long as he is not replaced by one of the Wall Street whores like Biden who will go back to allowing China to eat our lunch.


Sorry to burst your bubble, lot of Wall Street guys or whores if you will, in president Turmp's administration. Or doesn't that count because it is Trump?


Sorry to burst your bubble, but Wall Street is heavily tilting Democratic and has been for a number of years now. The Wall Street guys in Trump's administration aren't exactly popular on Wall Street. And they certainly haven't moved any big decisions in Wall Street's favor, so they don't seem to be the swamp creatures you are making off them.


Except for corporate tax breaks and tax breaks for the ultra rich you mean. `Could you name 5 decisions against Wallstreet, these unpopular Wallstreet guys have taken?

But if this is your mean thing, I guess you will be voting for Sanders the next time around, right?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, lot of Wall Street guys or whores if you will, in president Turmp's administration. Or doesn't that count because it is Trump?


Sorry to burst your bubble, but Wall Street is heavily tilting Democratic and has been for a number of years now. The Wall Street guys in Trump's administration aren't exactly popular on Wall Street. And they certainly haven't moved any big decisions in Wall Street's favor, so they don't seem to be the swamp creatures you are making off them.


Except for corporate tax breaks and tax breaks for the ultra rich you mean. `Could you name 5 decisions against Wallstreet, these unpopular Wallstreet guys have taken?

But if this is your mean thing, I guess you will be voting for Sanders the next time around, right?

To be fair, people who work in New York City (e.g. Wall Street) and make a high income are paying more in taxes under Trump’s tax reform plan. It’s really not fair to suggest that he did them a favor when the opposite is true.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
But if this is your mean thing, I guess you will be voting for Sanders the next time around, right?


How do you get from me disliking corporatism to voting for a socialist? There is capitalism on the other side or corporatism, I prefer that.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:10 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Someone has to show China the door after they have been abusing their WTO membership for 2 decades while breaking each and every trade rule they could possibly come across. Otherwise they will just continue to rape us.

If that means Trump will not get re-elected, so be it; as long as he is not replaced by one of the Wall Street whores like Biden who will go back to allowing China to eat our lunch.


China is not an honest or fair actor, but in realpolitik terms they act in response to perceived Western hegemony.

What I don’t get is ya’ll are about free markets and capitalism - but the current multinational corporation-led global economy is the ultimate expression of capitalism’s power and the American winner-take-all model’s prevalence. US corporations and Wall Street want to play ball with China because they want access to 650 million burgeoning middle class consumers in 2030.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Magog
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:33 pm

It’s getting to the point that Trump isn’t even trying to hide his racism anymore. Notice how he’s only raising tariffs on countries filled with minorities?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:02 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But if this is your mean thing, I guess you will be voting for Sanders the next time around, right?


How do you get from me disliking corporatism to voting for a socialist? There is capitalism on the other side or corporatism, I prefer that.


Corporatism is a consequence of cowboy capitalism.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:29 pm

Ken777 wrote:
If Mexico decides to ban the temporary export of agriculture workers during the harvest season is another area where we are at risk for our farmers and in the market place.


I recommend you look into the amount of money sent home to Mexico every year, now more than their oil exports at 3.5% of GDP. And given most of it goes to poor regions in Mexico and that Trump is currently railing against the Central America exodus, it won't take long for Mexicans to try a little harder in blocking the flow. I wonder though what happened to the threat of taxing remittances.
 
mham001
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:31 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
China is not an honest or fair actor, but in realpolitik terms they act in response to perceived Western hegemony.

What I don’t get is ya’ll are about free markets and capitalism - but the current multinational corporation-led global economy is the ultimate expression of capitalism’s power and the American winner-take-all model’s prevalence. US corporations and Wall Street want to play ball with China because they want access to 650 million burgeoning middle class consumers in 2030.


You answered your own question in the opening line. sheesh.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:56 pm

mham001 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
China is not an honest or fair actor, but in realpolitik terms they act in response to perceived Western hegemony.

What I don’t get is ya’ll are about free markets and capitalism - but the current multinational corporation-led global economy is the ultimate expression of capitalism’s power and the American winner-take-all model’s prevalence. US corporations and Wall Street want to play ball with China because they want access to 650 million burgeoning middle class consumers in 2030.


You answered your own question in the opening line. sheesh.


And the rest of the context got lost on you...? Unlikely. Realpolitik still exists. Petrodollar states are not honest or fair actors, yet we deal with them differently. Singapore is not, yet we deal with them differently. Japan is not, yet we deal with them differently. China’s problem is not its trade behavior - its the size and market potential.

From the perspective of a Brazil or Central American nation, our sugar subsidies are not fair, and our explanations dishonest, so they take actions in kind. These perceptions matter in a global trading game.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But if this is your mean thing, I guess you will be voting for Sanders the next time around, right?


How do you get from me disliking corporatism to voting for a socialist? There is capitalism on the other side or corporatism, I prefer that.


Corporatism is a consequence of cowboy capitalism.


No it's not. It's the consequence of the government having too much power over the economy and being able to skew it for the benefit of individual players in the market. That's a big difference.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:54 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

How do you get from me disliking corporatism to voting for a socialist? There is capitalism on the other side or corporatism, I prefer that.


Corporatism is a consequence of cowboy capitalism.


No it's not. It's the consequence of the government having too much power over the economy and being able to skew it for the benefit of individual players in the market. That's a big difference.


It is a big difference, but it clearly is not true. If you want a good functioning capitalist society, you need a market master - e.g. government - to keep everyone in check.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:06 am

Dutchy wrote:
It is a big difference, but it clearly is not true. If you want a good functioning capitalist society, you need a market master - e.g. government - to keep everyone in check.


No you do not. A functioning market is self-regulating. That's self evident. But of course someone who advocates for socialism would not understand this.

No incentives, no penalties, no bailouts, no subsidies. What a paradise that would be.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:18 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is a big difference, but it clearly is not true. If you want a good functioning capitalist society, you need a market master - e.g. government - to keep everyone in check.


No you do not. A functioning market is self-regulating. That's self evident. But of course someone who advocates for socialism would not understand this.

No incentives, no penalties, no bailouts, no subsidies. What a paradise that would be.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Yes, it is indeed self evident as we have seen in 2007.

Capitalism seems to be a religion for you, let the market roam free and everything will be fine is your believe, unfortunately, there is no scientific evidence for that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is a big difference, but it clearly is not true. If you want a good functioning capitalist society, you need a market master - e.g. government - to keep everyone in check.


No you do not. A functioning market is self-regulating. That's self evident. But of course someone who advocates for socialism would not understand this.

No incentives, no penalties, no bailouts, no subsidies. What a paradise that would be.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Yes, it is indeed self evident as we have seen in 2007.

Capitalism seems to be a religion for you, let the market roam free and everything will be fine is your believe, unfortunately, there is no scientific evidence for that.


To be fair, it has never been truly tested. Even Singapore and Hong Kong have multitudes of regulations.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:56 am

Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Yes, it is indeed self evident as we have seen in 2007.


I'm glad you should bring up the financial crisis. It's actually a great educational piece about how we don't have capitalism.

1. The crisis was caused by the government incentivizing market players (i.e. the banks) to drop their loaning standards below what they would have done by market forces. Subprime lending was not invented out of greed, but by government policy. The root of the financial crisis is in changes made throughout the 1990s to the Community Reinvestment Act.
2. The low interest rates exacerbated the problem, so the central bank added to this (central banks are inherently anti-capitalist institutions).
3. The market players reacted to this cocktail by packaging the subprime loans and mortgages into packages that made them seemingly easier to digest; and that was a very predictable reaction.
4. When it came crashing down (again, the government started this, namely the Clinton and Bush admins), the government did not react as it should have. Instead, it bailed out all the failing companies.
5. In real capitalism, there would have been no bailouts. All the big Wall Street banks, the big Detroit automakers, and lots of other companies would have gone bankrupt due to their failed business strategies. THAT is capitalism.
6. Had the laws of capitalism gotten their way back then, new players would have sprung up in the market that would have learned from the mistakes of the prior incumbents and after a very sharp recession, the economy would have recovered rapidly.
7. Instead of that, the government (and I blame both Democrats and Republican for this cowardly decision) decided that taking a sharp hit was not acceptable and instead wove an even larger bubble to defer the problem.

Capitalism is self-correcting and a truly free market does not know boom-bust cycles. Those cycles are created by failed Keynesian state economics and should have been banned to the history books many years ago. The only teaching an economically literate person can take from the financial crisis is that Ludwig van Mises was 100% right about everything he said and we should follow his theories to the letter.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:02 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

No you do not. A functioning market is self-regulating. That's self evident. But of course someone who advocates for socialism would not understand this.

No incentives, no penalties, no bailouts, no subsidies. What a paradise that would be.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Yes, it is indeed self evident as we have seen in 2007.

Capitalism seems to be a religion for you, let the market roam free and everything will be fine is your believe, unfortunately, there is no scientific evidence for that.


To be fair, it has never been truly tested. Even Singapore and Hong Kong have multitudes of regulations.


Sure, not in advanced economies, there are lawless states where you can speak of total deregulations because there is nobody to enforce them.
Deregulations in certain areas have been tried in advanced economies and you see where that leads to. Even the banks themselves admit that they need regulations to keep them in check. So overwhelming evidence in favor of regulations to some level. Logic dictates it: the aim of every company is a monopoly because that is the most profitable.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:03 am

aviationaware wrote:
Capitalism is self-correcting and a truly free market does not know boom-bust cycles.


Evidenced by what exactly?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
Sure, not in advanced economies, there are lawless states where you can speak of total deregulations because there is nobody to enforce them.
Deregulations in certain areas have been tried in advanced economies and you see where that leads to. Even the banks themselves admit that they need regulations to keep them in check. So overwhelming evidence in favor of regulations to some level. Logic dictates it: the aim of every company is a monopoly because that is the most profitable.


Banks are in favor of some level of regulation because a high level of regulation keeps out smaller players and allows the incumbents to exploit their share of the cake more freely. That's all there is to it, and it's certainly not an argument FOR regulation, but against it.

Also, the idea that monopolies are inherently bad is silly. In a truly free market, even a monopoly has to be earned every single day or risks being supplanted by better value propositions. If a monopoly is earned by virtue of the product being vastly superior, there is nothing that is bad about it at all. Google is not a virtual monopoly because some law says so or because there are such high barriers of entry for new companies. Google is a virtual monopoly because it offers the best product. There is nothing bad about it. Nothing.

Dutchy wrote:
Evidenced by what exactly?


It's self evident. If there are no laws artificially keeping bad apples alive, there will not be a big implosion at some point but smaller dents every now and then. Much smoother ride altogether.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:32 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sure, not in advanced economies, there are lawless states where you can speak of total deregulations because there is nobody to enforce them.
Deregulations in certain areas have been tried in advanced economies and you see where that leads to. Even the banks themselves admit that they need regulations to keep them in check. So overwhelming evidence in favor of regulations to some level. Logic dictates it: the aim of every company is a monopoly because that is the most profitable.


Banks are in favor of some level of regulation because a high level of regulation keeps out smaller players and allows the incumbents to exploit their share of the cake more freely. That's all there is to it, and it's certainly not an argument FOR regulation, but against it.

Also, the idea that monopolies are inherently bad is silly. In a truly free market, even a monopoly has to be earned every single day or risks being supplanted by better value propositions. If a monopoly is earned by virtue of the product being vastly superior, there is nothing that is bad about it at all. Google is not a virtual monopoly because some law says so or because there are such high barriers of entry for new companies. Google is a virtual monopoly because it offers the best product. There is nothing bad about it. Nothing.


Monopolies are inherently bad because they concentrate power and whom ever has power will push smaller competitors out of the market, Google is doing this, either they buy smaller companies or they are pushing them out.

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Evidenced by what exactly?


It's self evident. If there are no laws artificially keeping bad apples alive, there will not be a big implosion at some point but smaller dents every now and then. Much smoother ride altogether.


So your argument is: everything is self-evidence and every one whom disagree is too dumb to understand?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
So your argument is: everything is self-evidence and every one whom disagree is too dumb to understand?


Well I wouldn't be that harsh, but yes economic literacy is very poor in most people, and I'm sorry to tell you but from the countless posts of yours I have been privileged to read over the years that would include you. That doesn't make you dumb, I'm sure you excel in another field.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:06 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So your argument is: everything is self-evidence and every one whom disagree is too dumb to understand?


Well I wouldn't be that harsh, but yes economic literacy is very poor in most people, and I'm sorry to tell you but from the countless posts of yours I have been privileged to read over the years that would include you. That doesn't make you dumb, I'm sure you excel in another field.


Dunning–Kruger effect affected you? You are on record as a climate change denier, so how can we weigh any importance to you quoting science.

You are a libertarian, that is fine, but that is an ideology, not science. Very dangerous to mix the two.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:28 am

Dutchy wrote:

You are a libertarian, that is fine, but that is an ideology, not science. Very dangerous to mix the two.


I'm also getting paid to provide economic advice and I'm rather successful at it, so you might want to reconsider your wild notion that you have a better idea of how economics work than I do.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:36 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are a libertarian, that is fine, but that is an ideology, not science. Very dangerous to mix the two.


I'm also getting paid to provide economic advice and I'm rather successful at it, so you might want to reconsider your wild notion that you have a better idea of how economics work than I do.


So you say, so you say. I am sorry to say that you have provided no evidence of that. Economic advice to whom? The first rule of sound advice is: nuance, and I am sorry to say that the first shred of evidence of a nuanced opinion I have to see with you. I have seen many absolutes with you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:36 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You are a libertarian, that is fine, but that is an ideology, not science. Very dangerous to mix the two.

I'm also getting paid to provide economic advice and I'm rather successful at it, so you might want to reconsider your wild notion that you have a better idea of how economics work than I do.


There is evidence otherwise.... clearly...

:roll:
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Capitalism is self-correcting and a truly free market does not know boom-bust cycles.


Evidenced by what exactly?

Maybe aviationaware is only 11 years old.

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So your argument is: everything is self-evidence and every one whom disagree is too dumb to understand?


Well I wouldn't be that harsh, but yes economic literacy is very poor in most people, and I'm sorry to tell you but from the countless posts of yours I have been privileged to read over the years that would include you. That doesn't make you dumb, I'm sure you excel in another field.


Dunning–Kruger effect affected you? You are on record as a climate change denier, so how can we weigh any importance to you quoting science.

You are a libertarian, that is fine, but that is an ideology, not science. Very dangerous to mix the two.

Ideology/red flag. Tomato/tomahto.

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Yes, it is indeed self evident as we have seen in 2007.


I'm glad you should bring up the financial crisis. It's actually a great educational piece about how we don't have capitalism.

1. The crisis was caused by the government incentivizing market players (i.e. the banks) to drop their loaning standards below what they would have done by market forces. Subprime lending was not invented out of greed, but by government policy. The root of the financial crisis is in changes made throughout the 1990s to the Community Reinvestment Act.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Ivy league MBA's bested by the poor again! Curses! The big bad gubmint incentived big banks to a) take on more risk than they could handle and b) completely lose track of it.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:21 am

aviationaware wrote:
Well I wouldn't be that harsh, but yes economic literacy is very poor in most people, and I'm sorry to tell you but from the countless posts of yours I have been privileged to read over the years that would include you. That doesn't make you dumb, I'm sure you excel in another field.


:checkmark: You can say that again. Case in point is the media-induced hysteria about tariffs. Most people have little to no clue about economics. They only know what they've been told--right or wrong.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:22 am

MSPNWA wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well I wouldn't be that harsh, but yes economic literacy is very poor in most people, and I'm sorry to tell you but from the countless posts of yours I have been privileged to read over the years that would include you. That doesn't make you dumb, I'm sure you excel in another field.


:checkmark: You can say that again. Case in point is the media-induced hysteria about tariffs. Most people have little to no clue about economics. They only know what they've been told--right or wrong.


Do you have knowledge the rest of us actually formally trained in economics don’t?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:44 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Do you have knowledge the rest of us actually formally trained in economics don’t?


Being trained in economics does not mean you actually understand the fundamental basics of it. Look at Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She has a degree in economics, but obviously not the slightest clue about how economics work. I admit she is a particularly appalling example of failure in economic education, but she's in good company.

Anyone who has not realized that Austrian economics are the only valid and proven economic theories does not have a good understanding of economics. That includes shills like Paul Krugman who may have high accolades lavished upon them because of ideological preference of those bestowing the honors, but are still miserable failures.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:55 am

aviationaware wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Do you have knowledge the rest of us actually formally trained in economics don’t?


Being trained in economics does not mean you actually understand the fundamental basics of it. Look at Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She has a degree in economics, but obviously not the slightest clue about how economics work. I admit she is a particularly appalling example of failure in economic education, but she's in good company.

Anyone who has not realized that Austrian economics are the only valid and proven economic theories does not have a good understanding of economics. That includes shills like Paul Krugman who may have high accolades lavished upon them because of ideological preference of those bestowing the honors, but are still miserable failures.


Don’t necessarily disagree with the above, but the poster in question was clearly cheerleading for current tariff policy, which economic libertarians like myself and you (in what I glean from your posts) would characterize as ridiculous government-led interference and market intervention. Not to mention it is a poor negotiating position to start with charging/penalizing competitors more - when the stated goal is purportedly better market access.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Cerecl
Posts: 616
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:40 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Case in point is the media-induced hysteria about tariffs.

Wow, just wow.
Trump is using tariff to force a confrontation of the largest and second largest economy in the world and you think it is all hysteria?? :roll:
Trump slaps a tariff on Mexico just when US-mexico trade agreement was about to be concluded. How much value do you think other country would attach to any trade agreement with the US in the future?
Trump was even considering tariff on commodities from Australia which is one of its closest allies. He clearly has no ability to think beyond step 1 of any action he takes. But hey carry on, a genius is sitting in the oval office and the rest is hysteria :banghead:
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cledaybuck
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:11 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is a big difference, but it clearly is not true. If you want a good functioning capitalist society, you need a market master - e.g. government - to keep everyone in check.


No you do not. A functioning market is self-regulating.
Do you work for Boeing?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:58 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Trump was even considering tariff on commodities from Australia which is one of its closest allies. He clearly has no ability to think beyond step 1 of any action he takes. But hey carry on, a genius is sitting in the oval office and the rest is hysteria


I can't think of one country, allies or not with US, that IQ45 haven't threaten with tariffs. Hack, I even remember him threatening South Korea on trade right before the first IQ45-Fatty Kim meeting.

Threatening even Australia (or EU) is the exact problem I have with IQ45 - it's one thing to "do something about China" (Which is not exactly an idea that's THAT unpopular), it's another to just trying to start fight with everybody and think everyone else are going to stay being friends with US. As some said, it's one thing to be "America First", it's another to be "America Alone", and the latter will be a disaster for US.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18081
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:54 am

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are a libertarian, that is fine, but that is an ideology, not science. Very dangerous to mix the two.


I'm also getting paid to provide economic advice and I'm rather successful at it, so you might want to reconsider your wild notion that you have a better idea of how economics work than I do.

$1 you're a day trader. Or squeezing every last dollar out of your Econ 101 course at the local community college trotting out nonsense like this:

aviationaware wrote:

Capitalism is self-correcting and a truly free market does not know boom-bust cycles. Those cycles are created by failed Keynesian state economics and should have been banned to the history books many years ago. The only teaching an economically literate person can take from the financial crisis is that Ludwig van Mises was 100% right about everything he said and we should follow his theories to the letter.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
I don't take responsibility at all
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:09 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
$1 you're a day trader.


Yay, I just made a dollar! Do you prefer Paypal or do you want to wire me the money?
 
LMP737
Posts: 6036
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:15 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Well I wouldn't be that harsh, but yes economic literacy is very poor in most people, and I'm sorry to tell you but from the countless posts of yours I have been privileged to read over the years that would include you. That doesn't make you dumb, I'm sure you excel in another field.


:checkmark: You can say that again. Case in point is the media-induced hysteria about tariffs. Most people have little to no clue about economics. They only know what they've been told--right or wrong.


Since you two are expert economists who pays for tariff's?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:56 pm

LMP737 wrote:

Since you two are expert economists who pays for tariff's?


Your argument falls flat, because the effect of that can be measured in inflation, which isn't a problem right now. So obviously most of the tariffs are taken up by the importers.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 10423
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:17 pm

aviationaware wrote:
No you do not. A functioning market is self-regulating.

Ummm.... no. But there could be a "yes" in there as well.

Either you are completely misunderstanding "functioning market" or you don't understand that "the market" is supposed to benefit people overall.

Yes, the market will self-regulate with one market leader emerging over time and dictating terms that maximize its own profits. The market will then "self regulate" under the control of that company/market leader.

No, the market will lead to a situation where one or just a few entities will benefit the most and they will collude to ensure their survival. Whether to the detriment of other or not is not the priority.

Government is the expression of "the people" to apply the collective power over business, industry and outside entities that would otherwise form and step forward to assert their power over the population. Government is terrible but it is the best solution to prevent business only from imposing draconian situations that benefit the companies only.

This has been proven over time.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:21 pm

aviationaware wrote:
LMP737 wrote:

Since you two are expert economists who pays for tariff's?


Your argument falls flat, because the effect of that can be measured in inflation, which isn't a problem right now. So obviously most of the tariffs are taken up by the importers.

Yes! Exactly!

And as a market driven, profit driven entity, where does the importer recoup the cost of "absorbing" those tariffs?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:44 am

Tugger wrote:
Yes, the market will self-regulate with one market leader emerging over time and dictating terms that maximize its own profits. The market will then "self regulate" under the control of that company/market leader.


There is no scientific evidence for that. It's also not what common sense indicates. Quite the contrary actually, a truly free market without entry barriers (other than capital availability) and total competition will prevent a monopoly far better than state interventionism.

Tugger wrote:
This has been proven over time.


Not it has not. Stop making crap up. There never was such a thing as a truly free market so it can't possibly have been proven.

Tugger wrote:
Yes! Exactly!

And as a market driven, profit driven entity, where does the importer recoup the cost of "absorbing" those tariffs?

Tugg


Obviously not from his customers, because that would then show up in inflation. It's like you don't even listen. When there is competition in a market, a supplier can't just go and raise prices to recoup such costs. That's why international air carriers have a very hard time recovering rising fuel expenses with higher fares, whereas predominantly domestic players have it much easier as there is less competition.

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