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casinterest
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:55 am

Trump is worse than Hoover. No one can enter into an agreement with the US anymore as Trump will just break it when it suits his purpose.
This presidency will go down in history as one of the worst administrations in the world.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:50 am

aviationaware wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, the market will self-regulate with one market leader emerging over time and dictating terms that maximize its own profits. The market will then "self regulate" under the control of that company/market leader.


There is no scientific evidence for that. It's also not what common sense indicates. Quite the contrary actually, a truly free market without entry barriers (other than capital availability) and total competition will prevent a monopoly far better than state interventionism.

You are making up facts and willfully ignoring known market dynamics. Now you are trying to hide under "common sense? Yeah that is science right there.
I cannot stop you from lying and making things up, just point them out for others to see your bald faced falsities

aviationaware wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This has been proven over time.


Not it has not. Stop making crap up. There never was such a thing as a truly free market so it can't possibly have been proven.

Now you are hiding under skirts of "it can't be proven"? And you are making statements as if they are proven facts? Yeah, again real science there. Go back to you religion of trolling.

aviationaware wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes! Exactly!

And as a market driven, profit driven entity, where does the importer recoup the cost of "absorbing" those tariffs?

Tugg


Obviously not from his customers, because that would then show up in inflation. It's like you don't even listen. When there is competition in a market, a supplier can't just go and raise prices to recoup such costs. That's why international air carriers have a very hard time recovering rising fuel expenses with higher fares, whereas predominantly domestic players have it much easier as there is less competition.

"Obviously" :rotfl:
Yeah, obviously companies never recoup costs from customers! Duh! market dynamics law 101. Is this your "Science" at play again? Good gad man. Get something more than creationism for your science.

That you do not even understand that inflation is not a leading indicator but a following one, and that it shows in data AFTER such costs are applied. The costs will be applied to the customers and then appear in the data. (You also appear woefully uninformed on airline practices and the current norm of applying fuels surcharge fees on international flights. I know, it must be an impossible idea to you that a business would recoup a cost - even a future not fully known cost - via customers.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:19 am

Tugger wrote:

That you do not even understand that inflation is not a leading indicator but a following one, and that it shows in data AFTER such costs are applied.


I would wager to say that I understand this mechanic far better than you do. Tariffs on Chinese goods have been active long enough to have shown in inflation figures by now. They didn't, because consumers can substitute those goods easily for similar goods made in Vietnam or elsewhere that is cheap but has no tariffs on it. Therefore businesses importing from China cannot easily recover those losses.

It's not like I'm dying to be right here but you'd do well to take this as an education instead of impertinently insisting on being right. Bullshitting your way through life stopped working a couple of decades ago brother.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:41 am

aviationaware wrote:
Tugger wrote:

That you do not even understand that inflation is not a leading indicator but a following one, and that it shows in data AFTER such costs are applied.


I would wager to say that I understand this mechanic far better than you do. Tariffs on Chinese goods have been active long enough to have shown in inflation figures by now. They didn't, because consumers can substitute those goods easily for similar goods made in Vietnam or elsewhere that is cheap but has no tariffs on it. Therefore businesses importing from China cannot easily recover those losses.

It's not like I'm dying to be right here but you'd do well to take this as an education instead of impertinently insisting on being right. Bullshitting your way through life stopped working a couple of decades ago brother.


I think the jury is still out on this one. Probably some of the cost of the tariff has been absorbed by the businesses, thus lowering their margins, some have been given to the stores, which has absorbed some of the cost and some will be seen in the sales prices. My guestimate is that not much has been replaced by goods from other sources, other than China. It takes time to find new companies to produce goods for you, to negotiate prices, to get a contract in place and to ship it to the US. And of course existing contracts needs to be observed as well.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
It takes time to find new companies to produce goods for you, to negotiate prices, to get a contract in place and to ship it to the US. And of course existing contracts needs to be observed as well.


I can contract for 100,000 pairs of trainers to be manufactured to my specs in Vietnam for delivery two weeks from now, and I can be finished doing that just waiting for delivery before the day is over. This is not very complicated unless you are looking for really huge volumes or high tech.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:23 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It takes time to find new companies to produce goods for you, to negotiate prices, to get a contract in place and to ship it to the US. And of course existing contracts needs to be observed as well.


I can contract for 100,000 pairs of trainers to be manufactured to my specs in Vietnam for delivery two weeks from now, and I can be finished doing that just waiting for delivery before the day is over. This is not very complicated unless you are looking for really huge volumes or high tech.


Thanks for this explanation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:28 pm

aviationaware wrote:
I would wager to say that I understand this mechanic far better than you do. Tariffs on Chinese goods have been active long enough to have shown in inflation figures by now. They didn't, because consumers can substitute those goods easily for similar goods made in Vietnam or elsewhere that is cheap but has no tariffs on it. Therefore businesses importing from China cannot easily recover those losses.

It's not like I'm dying to be right here but you'd do well to take this as an education instead of impertinently insisting on being right. Bullshitting your way through life stopped working a couple of decades ago brother.


aviationaware wrote:
I can contract for 100,000 pairs of trainers to be manufactured to my specs in Vietnam for delivery two weeks from now, and I can be finished doing that just waiting for delivery before the day is over. This is not very complicated unless you are looking for really huge volumes or high tech.


Not complaining about what you're doing - but this is exactly why the tariff is stupid. No China? Just move it to Vietnam! MVGA! In another word, so much for "moving manufacturing back to US" according to IQ45.

On the flip side, I thought production of things like shoes (especially) and some garment had been moving to Vietnam for awhile anyway. That or Bangladesh.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:39 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Tugger wrote:

That you do not even understand that inflation is not a leading indicator but a following one, and that it shows in data AFTER such costs are applied.


I would wager to say that I understand this mechanic far better than you do. Tariffs on Chinese goods have been active long enough to have shown in inflation figures by now. They didn't, because consumers can substitute those goods easily for similar goods made in Vietnam or elsewhere that is cheap but has no tariffs on it. Therefore businesses importing from China cannot easily recover those losses.

It's not like I'm dying to be right here but you'd do well to take this as an education instead of impertinently insisting on being right. Bullshitting your way through life stopped working a couple of decades ago brother.

So apparently you don't understand this mechanic.

If the tariffs haven't had an impact because the goods have been substituted then the tariffs have not made it into the data. You appear to be forgetting that the question is: Who pays the tariffs? It is the customer. You denied that the customer paid it. That other market forces are at work (avoidance) does not negate the fact that customers are the ones that pay. (For everything ultimately.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:54 pm

And if you want "proven" examples of monopoly power of market forces (which you state can't be proven since a "pure market" hasn't existed... sigh, you seem to understand science so little) then look to Standard Oil, and Microsoft, company towns (railway, mining, agricultural) hell look at the mob, Russian, La Cosa Nostra, etc. Market forces, pure capitalism drove those to total dominance and if not for larger forces of the civic government holding them back they would have applied that power on an ever larger scale. That is how science works, you look at real world "micro" examples which can then be extrapolated.

Standard Oil, if left to run itself would have basically owned Saudi Arabia, among other nations. And have you never explored the examples of agriculture taking over nations? Ever heard of Banana Republics? Though now meaning a country dependent on a single commodity for the majority of their income, it came about due to companies setting up governments in foreign nations to completely control the economy to their benefit. And the mob? That is the ultimate example of capitalism in the place of civic government.

Companies will buy their advantage and force out, squeeze out competitors wherever they can. Airlines do this all the time using profitable routes to fund other routes to squeeze competition on other routes. Consolidation is a market norm. Why you deny this or claim that I do not understand? Markets tend toward one, two, or three "majors". And without government, mob type systems, profit based, spring up to control the flow of goods and services. So this blather about "pure capitalism will solve itself" will self-regulate, is shown to not be true at all.

You can try and ridicule me and call me out and whatever but it is obvious you do not understand and have not studied history and reviewed how capitalism, profit motive, actually work in the world without restraint.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:47 pm

Heck, you want another example of pure market capitalism? Go speak to farmers about repairing their John Deere (and others) equipment, combines, tractors etc.. JD has made it basically impossible to perform any repair without going to them and paying their price. You may own the rig out right, but it won't start and run without JD approving it. (And the farmer paying for that approval.)

https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere- ... to-repair/
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... r-tractors

Pure capitalism right there folks. And there is a drive to pass a law or regulation disallowing such practices. That is exactly why civic government, government by and for the people, is so critical.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
LMP737
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Re: Donald Trump = Herbert Hoover 2.0?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:29 pm

aviationaware wrote:

Your argument falls flat, because the effect of that can be measured in inflation, which isn't a problem right now. So obviously most of the tariffs are taken up by the importers.


Since you're the resident expert who do they pass that along to?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.

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