Page 1 of 2

US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:04 pm
by Aaron747
One has to wonder if the White House will be adding this to the list of economic achievements it so proudly touts?

For the first time in nine years, Singapore replaced the U.S. as the world’s most competitive economy. The U.S. dropped down to third on the list, thanks to higher fuel prices, weaker high-tech exports, fluctuations in the value of the dollar and the fading impact of President Trump’s massive tax overhaul. Hong Kong, meanwhile, remained in second place. China was ranked fourteenth.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/wor ... ve-economy

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:54 pm
by anrec80
Well - more sanctions, and there will be even weaker exports.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:17 pm
by seb146
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:34 pm
by anrec80
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


Had someone ever had any illusions that it could work? Not with the main targets of this trickle down at least.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:58 pm
by Dieuwer
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


"Death by a Thousand Trickles" ;)

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:10 pm
by seb146
anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


Had someone ever had any illusions that it could work? Not with the main targets of this trickle down at least.


Yes, starting in the 1980s Republicans said to give everything to the very wealthy and they will create good paying jobs and wages would go up for us who work and we don't need no stinkin' unions because the very wealthy will fuel the economy. It never happened. Each and every time Republicans do this, it never happens. They say it will but it never does.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:45 pm
by anrec80
seb146 wrote:
Yes, starting in the 1980s Republicans said to give everything to the very wealthy and they will create good paying jobs and wages would go up for us who work and we don't need no stinkin' unions because the very wealthy will fuel the economy. It never happened. Each and every time Republicans do this, it never happens. They say it will but it never does.


First, those wealthy did not take anything away from anyone, unlike some other types, such as “welfare queens”, “refugees” and other “poor and destitute”. Virtually anyone who got some wealth achieved it by the means of their own dedication and hard work, countless nights in the office, lots of education. And they certainly did not deserve 50%+ extractive taxes. In my experience - fair tax bill is about 30%, all-in. Government should not chase any more, and kick those who do.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:56 pm
by seb146
anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Yes, starting in the 1980s Republicans said to give everything to the very wealthy and they will create good paying jobs and wages would go up for us who work and we don't need no stinkin' unions because the very wealthy will fuel the economy. It never happened. Each and every time Republicans do this, it never happens. They say it will but it never does.


First, those wealthy did not take anything away from anyone, unlike some other types, such as “welfare queens”, “refugees” and other “poor and destitute”. Virtually anyone who got some wealth achieved it by the means of their own dedication and hard work, countless nights in the office, lots of education. And they certainly did not deserve 50%+ extractive taxes. In my experience - fair tax bill is about 30%, all-in. Government should not chase any more, and kick those who do.


The spirit of Ronald Reagan is alive and well.

"Welfare queens" are made up by the right to scare low information voters. Go down to the welfare office and get welfare if it is so great and makes people so wealthy. See how long you and your family live high on the hog on all that welfare.

The current occupant of the White House was given his money by his parents. He scammed the banks. And he still received massive tax credits which he frittered away on poor investments and got it all back by shuffling his daddy's money around. You know why the very wealthy pay little or no taxes while the rest of us prop them up? Because they have enough revenue streams that can be justified in not paying taxes. Rolling over various assets and investments so they don't have to pay taxes. And they still have not created good paying jobs and lowered the cost of health care, education, and housing like you Reaganites claim.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:02 pm
by aviationaware
City state economies being rated as more competitive than a huge economy like the US is no surprise given how it is measured. The fact that the US still hold its own against those two speaks for itself.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:30 pm
by anrec80
seb146 wrote:
"Welfare queens" are made up by the right to scare low information voters. Go down to the welfare office and get welfare if it is so great and makes people so wealthy. See how long you and your family live high on the hog on all that welfare.


Nonetheless - welfare level is enough to attract all sorts of cunning-ass migrants looking to solve their problems at someone else’s expense (our, in this case). And work for cash, not paying any taxes, in addition to that of course.

seb146 wrote:
The current occupant of the White House was given his money by his parents. He scammed the banks. And he still received massive tax credits which he frittered away on poor investments and got it all back by shuffling his daddy's money around. You know why the very wealthy pay little or no taxes while the rest of us prop them up? Because they have enough revenue streams that can be justified in not paying taxes. Rolling over various assets and investments so they don't have to pay taxes.


And the parents of this occupant did not take anything away from anyone either. And tax load on individuals should be low enough so that nobody had any incentive and/or reason to count money in someone else’s pocket, and how much taxes they pay. And ideally flat - then it doesn’t matter how many income streams are where.

seb146 wrote:
And they still have not created good paying jobs and lowered the cost of health care, education, and housing like you Reaganites claim.


Descent jobs are also out there - but you need to qualify to get them, be willing to move for some others, etc. But everyone wants it all, here and now.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:08 pm
by dmg626
Oh wow, is this like the monthly airline ranking surveys that rate fill in your favorite airline as number 1 this month?

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:39 am
by Aaron747
dmg626 wrote:
Oh wow, is this like the monthly airline ranking surveys that rate fill in your favorite airline as number 1 this month?


Not really - a fairly serious analysis done annually by IMD. If you don’t know who they are, you aren’t exposed to corporate management types much - but generally regarded as one of the finest independent biz schools in the world.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:26 am
by seb146
anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
"Welfare queens" are made up by the right to scare low information voters. Go down to the welfare office and get welfare if it is so great and makes people so wealthy. See how long you and your family live high on the hog on all that welfare.


Nonetheless - welfare level is enough to attract all sorts of cunning-ass migrants looking to solve their problems at someone else’s expense (our, in this case). And work for cash, not paying any taxes, in addition to that of course.

seb146 wrote:
The current occupant of the White House was given his money by his parents. He scammed the banks. And he still received massive tax credits which he frittered away on poor investments and got it all back by shuffling his daddy's money around. You know why the very wealthy pay little or no taxes while the rest of us prop them up? Because they have enough revenue streams that can be justified in not paying taxes. Rolling over various assets and investments so they don't have to pay taxes.


And the parents of this occupant did not take anything away from anyone either. And tax load on individuals should be low enough so that nobody had any incentive and/or reason to count money in someone else’s pocket, and how much taxes they pay. And ideally flat - then it doesn’t matter how many income streams are where.

seb146 wrote:
And they still have not created good paying jobs and lowered the cost of health care, education, and housing like you Reaganites claim.


Descent jobs are also out there - but you need to qualify to get them, be willing to move for some others, etc. But everyone wants it all, here and now.


I guess the only thing I have to say is: I am sorry my real world experience here is not what you have seen on the TV. "Cunning migrants" taking advantage and those decent jobs that need education that we can not afford and health care that we can not afford and so forth. I guess I need to tune out of real life and sit in front of the TV more.

Go talk to all those "cunning immigrants" in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Kentucky. You do know those states have a higher number of white Americans on state assistance, right? You also know that undocumented people in the United States can not receive state assistance because they need documentation, right?

Like I said: go into your local welfare office tomorrow morning and demand welfare. Don't bother giving them any documents or anything. You and right wingers like you seem to think this happens. So, do it. Let us know how it turns out.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:53 am
by MaverickM11
Weird...you'd think unpredictable nonsensical tariffs would be right up investors' alley
Dieuwer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


"Death by a Thousand Trickles" ;)

Trickle tape 4 Jesus!

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The current occupant of the White House was given his money by his parents. He scammed the banks. And he still received massive tax credits which he frittered away on poor investments and got it all back by shuffling his daddy's money around. You know why the very wealthy pay little or no taxes while the rest of us prop them up? Because they have enough revenue streams that can be justified in not paying taxes. Rolling over various assets and investments so they don't have to pay taxes.


And the parents of this occupant did not take anything away from anyone either. And tax load on individuals should be low enough so that nobody had any incentive and/or reason to count money in someone else’s pocket, and how much taxes they pay. And ideally flat - then it doesn’t matter how many income streams are where.

Trump is synonymous with fraud. If he didn't have rich parents he'd be eating paint chips under a bridge somewhere, or best case scenario, running small scams like the original welfare queen Linda Taylor.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:25 am
by seat64k
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


YMMV on the exact definition of "trickle down economics" but if I take it to mean something along the lines of low taxes and less red tape for business, then it's working pretty well in the number #1 and #2 spots.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:47 am
by Magog
seat64k wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


YMMV on the exact definition of "trickle down economics" but if I take it to mean something along the lines of low taxes and less red tape for business, then it's working pretty well in the number #1 and #2 spots.

Good point. The United States lost ground because of the “the fading impact of President Trump’s massive tax overhaul.” This implies that the survey wants to see more tax cuts, not increases.

I’m also a little confused as to why the United States lost ground because of rising fuel prices. Doesn’t that affect the globe equally? (Unless it’s an argument for less taxation.). The United States certainly has more energy independence than Singapore or Hong Kong.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:21 pm
by Aaron747
Magog wrote:
seat64k wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


YMMV on the exact definition of "trickle down economics" but if I take it to mean something along the lines of low taxes and less red tape for business, then it's working pretty well in the number #1 and #2 spots.

Good point. The United States lost ground because of the “the fading impact of President Trump’s massive tax overhaul.” This implies that the survey wants to see more tax cuts, not increases.

I’m also a little confused as to why the United States lost ground because of rising fuel prices. Doesn’t that affect the globe equally? (Unless it’s an argument for less taxation.). The United States certainly has more energy independence than Singapore or Hong Kong.


Fuel prices have much less impact on Singapore and Hong Kong - the majority of their residents efficiently use subways and commuter rail.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:28 pm
by seat64k
Aaron747 wrote:
Fuel prices have much less impact on Singapore and Hong Kong - the majority of their residents efficiently use subways and commuter rail.


Small mercies. The cost of property makes up 100 times for it.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:32 pm
by Magog
Aaron747 wrote:

Fuel prices have much less impact on Singapore and Hong Kong - the majority of their residents efficiently use subways and commuter rail.

I see. It's a function of their being city-states. I know that you hate Trump, but it's odd that you'd place blame upon Trump for the United States not being a city-state. I hate they guy too, but I also value being rational.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:43 pm
by Aaron747
Magog wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Fuel prices have much less impact on Singapore and Hong Kong - the majority of their residents efficiently use subways and commuter rail.

I see. It's a function of their being city-states. I know that you hate Trump, but it's odd that you'd place blame upon Trump for the United States not being a city-state. I hate they guy too, but I also value being rational.


I never stated that - find the quote? If you'll note in the OP, my cheeky remark is directed at the White House lies about the 'best economy ever'. It's not - facts clearly show the best economy ever in the US was more or less between 1954 and 1972, when annualized GDP growth exceeded 5% eleven times, per capita GDP was actually the highest in the world, and middle class lifestyles were much more stable than now. 45 and his WH minions are such idiots they portray the DJIA as the sole historical barometer of economic strength.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:43 pm
by seb146
Magog wrote:
seat64k wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, trickle down is not working? what a shock....


YMMV on the exact definition of "trickle down economics" but if I take it to mean something along the lines of low taxes and less red tape for business, then it's working pretty well in the number #1 and #2 spots.

Good point. The United States lost ground because of the “the fading impact of President Trump’s massive tax overhaul.” This implies that the survey wants to see more tax cuts, not increases.

I’m also a little confused as to why the United States lost ground because of rising fuel prices. Doesn’t that affect the globe equally? (Unless it’s an argument for less taxation.). The United States certainly has more energy independence than Singapore or Hong Kong.


Which is great for corporations but for We The People, it is awful. We still can not afford health care or education or housing but hurray that big business make money from tax credits! I don't think so. A few people should benefit and the vast majority should be miserable and live near or at poverty because of one list? Give me a break.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:58 pm
by seat64k
seb146 wrote:
Which is great for corporations but for We The People, it is awful. We still can not afford health care or education or housing but hurray that big business make money from tax credits! I don't think so. A few people should benefit and the vast majority should be miserable and live near or at poverty because of one list? Give me a break.


You realise that these two things have nothing to do with each other. Hong Kong has a lower corporate tax rate than the US. Much lower income tax (Max 17%, and you get to deduct all sorts of stuff). No capital gains tax. No dividend tax. No import duties. And yet, we have a very effective public health system. And private healthcare is quite affordable. And tax deductible. How can this be?

You pay as much for healthcare as you do, because you go along with it. Compared to the rest of the developed world, everything except health care is cheap in the US. Cars are cheap. Housing is cheap. Food is cheap. Clothes are so cheap, it's worth the trans-atlantic flight if you plan your purchasing a bit. Heck, I still wear the $2 Made in Mexico T-shirts I bought at Target in 2007. Why is stuff cheap? Because you vote with your money.

So why not do the same with health insurance? Pick one insurer. Organise. You know, like after 47's inauguration. 5 million people in the freezing cold. Get everyone to move their insurance away from your target. It will only take 10-20% of their customer base before the rest suddenly develop a keen interest in what their customers want.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:30 pm
by zakuivcustom
seat64k wrote:
You realise that these two things have nothing to do with each other. Hong Kong has a lower corporate tax rate than the US. Much lower income tax (Max 17%, and you get to deduct all sorts of stuff). No capital gains tax. No dividend tax. No import duties. And yet, we have a very effective public health system. And private healthcare is quite affordable. And tax deductible. How can this be?


"Very Effective Public Health System"

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

The same system that HK gov't can't seems to find money for, but hey, let's pay those useless police tons of money to shoot tear gas every single time there's a protest. Let's continue to throw money away at useless infrastructure projects.

On a side note, HK (at 7.3M) is simply a lot smaller than US. Plus HK gov't income source comes largely from selling lands anyway. US gov't may hold tons of land, but nothing THAT valuable.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:41 pm
by seb146
seat64k wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Which is great for corporations but for We The People, it is awful. We still can not afford health care or education or housing but hurray that big business make money from tax credits! I don't think so. A few people should benefit and the vast majority should be miserable and live near or at poverty because of one list? Give me a break.


You realise that these two things have nothing to do with each other. Hong Kong has a lower corporate tax rate than the US. Much lower income tax (Max 17%, and you get to deduct all sorts of stuff). No capital gains tax. No dividend tax. No import duties. And yet, we have a very effective public health system. And private healthcare is quite affordable. And tax deductible. How can this be?

You pay as much for healthcare as you do, because you go along with it. Compared to the rest of the developed world, everything except health care is cheap in the US. Cars are cheap. Housing is cheap. Food is cheap. Clothes are so cheap, it's worth the trans-atlantic flight if you plan your purchasing a bit. Heck, I still wear the $2 Made in Mexico T-shirts I bought at Target in 2007. Why is stuff cheap? Because you vote with your money.

So why not do the same with health insurance? Pick one insurer. Organise. You know, like after 47's inauguration. 5 million people in the freezing cold. Get everyone to move their insurance away from your target. It will only take 10-20% of their customer base before the rest suddenly develop a keen interest in what their customers want.


Republicans insist that health care is a privilege and the health care companies, from research to manufacture of medication to hospitals to doctors to ambulance, are for-profit. THAT is the problem with American health care.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:03 pm
by Aesma
HK is not a real country (literally) and is a financial powerhouse/paradise, same for Singapore and some others. No significantly larger country can run their economy that way, not even Switzerland.

Some other worrying signs for the US I heard about these last few days : Russia and China have sold lots of TBonds, and bought lots of gold with it.

Another one : with rates being low, and now Powell saying they will always be low, 5% will never happen again, but at most 3%, pension funds are in trouble. Usually when you approach retirement, your pension fund goes from stocks to bonds, but now bonds don't make any money.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:43 pm
by anrec80
Aesma wrote:
HK is not a real country (literally) and is a financial powerhouse/paradise, same for Singapore and some others. No significantly larger country can run their economy that way, not even Switzerland.


Once we are taking Russia - their income tax is 13%. And also free healthcare and higher education. And their budget is in surplus.

Aesma wrote:
Some other worrying signs for the US I heard about these last few days : Russia and China have sold lots of TBonds, and bought lots of gold with it.


Well - more sanctions and trade wars. Way to go!!!

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:04 pm
by mham001
Aesma wrote:
Some other worrying signs for the US I heard about these last few days : Russia and China have sold lots of TBonds, and bought lots of gold with it.


Russia does not own "lots" of treasury bonds - in fact they divested the vast majority of them last year and nobody noticed. They don't even make the list....https://ticdata.treasury.gov/Publish/mfh.txt

If China were to do so quickly, they would likely hurt themselves more by lowering the value and could even benefit the US by weakening the dollar.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:28 am
by seat64k
zakuivcustom wrote:
On a side note, HK (at 7.3M) is simply a lot smaller than US. Plus HK gov't income source comes largely from selling lands anyway. US gov't may hold tons of land, but nothing THAT valuable.


That would be a good point if the US gov didn't run on so much debt. When you're spending a trillion more than you're taking in, few billion in tax cuts can't be used to establish correlations between tax rates and affordability of something in the private sector.

seb146 wrote:
Republicans insist that health care is a privilege and the health care companies, from research to manufacture of medication to hospitals to doctors to ambulance, are for-profit. THAT is the problem with American health care.


So it's not tax credits for corporates? I'm having trouble keeping up. Lots of other things are for-profit and yet it is affordable. And lots of countries have private for-profit healthcare that costs a fraction of what it does in the US.

You have state capture built into your political system. You have big corporations writing the laws that your legislators introduce, don't bother to read, and vote for. You can vote out the guilty politician, but by then it's too late. Taxing rich people more isn't going to make an ounce of difference here.

Aesma wrote:
Another one : with rates being low, and now Powell saying they will always be low, 5% will never happen again, but at most 3%, pension funds are in trouble. Usually when you approach retirement, your pension fund goes from stocks to bonds, but now bonds don't make any money.


This is arguably a much larger concern in the long term.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:06 pm
by seb146
seat64k wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Republicans insist that health care is a privilege and the health care companies, from research to manufacture of medication to hospitals to doctors to ambulance, are for-profit. THAT is the problem with American health care.


So it's not tax credits for corporates? I'm having trouble keeping up. Lots of other things are for-profit and yet it is affordable. And lots of countries have private for-profit healthcare that costs a fraction of what it does in the US.

You have state capture built into your political system. You have big corporations writing the laws that your legislators introduce, don't bother to read, and vote for. You can vote out the guilty politician, but by then it's too late. Taxing rich people more isn't going to make an ounce of difference here.


Tax breaks for corporations and the very wealthy is not even part of the health care debate, so I don't know why you brought it up.

Then, you go on to mash several different subjects together and it just got confusing. Retail stores make profits because they are able to sell huge quantities of crap that we don't need and convincing us that we really really need it.

On a completely different topic that has nothing at all to do with retail, we need health care. There is little oversight for what insurance companies charge for things like routine doctor visits, routine vaccines, medications, etc. So, those specific companies charge whatever they want.

On a third and even different topic, many states have state funded health care but the rules to get enrolled are strict. You can only make up to so much and some states will not cover preexisting conditions so that creates a huge problem for most Americans. "State capture" health care is NOT "built into" our political system. It is something progressive law makers decided was good for We The People, as in "promoting the general welfare" of us. That phrase, general welfare, shows up a few times in our Constitution.

On a fourth and even different topic, so what about private health insurance? If people can afford it, fine. But, many of us can not afford it.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:05 pm
by seat64k
seb146 wrote:
Tax breaks for corporations and the very wealthy is not even part of the health care debate, so I don't know why you brought it up.


Because you did:

seb146 wrote:
We still can not afford health care or education or housing but hurray that big business make money from tax credits! I don't think so. A few people should benefit and the vast majority should be miserable and live near or at poverty because of one list? Give me a break.


Do you even read your own posts? You made the connection twice!

seb146 wrote:
Then, you go on to mash several different subjects together and it just got confusing. Retail stores make profits because they are able to sell huge quantities of crap that we don't need and convincing us that we really really need it.


No no no. You're the only one who's confused. Whether or not something is retail is of no consequence here. You need food. Food is retail. Food is dirt cheap in the US. You need clothes too. Clothes are retail too. Clothes - at least the basics - are dirt cheap in the US too. As far as I know, you don't have regulation that prohibits Target and Walmart for negotiating prices with manufacturers. But you do have regulation that prohibit Medicare from negotiating drug prices.

There is no reason why healthcare can't be affordable when you actually have competition in the market. But you don't, as you describe below:

seb146 wrote:
There is little oversight for what insurance companies charge for things like routine doctor visits, routine vaccines, medications, etc. So, those specific companies charge whatever they want.


And did I not specifically tell you to take action against insurance companies? I noticed you conveniently snipped that paragraph from your response.

seb146 wrote:
On a completely different topic that has nothing at all to do with retail, we need health care.


Complaining about tax cuts for the wealthy - which you did - will not get you anywhere closer to affordable healthcare. Complaining about what republicans do or think - which you also did - will also not get you any closer to affordable healthcare.

seb146 wrote:
"State capture" health care is NOT "built into" our political system. It is something progressive law makers decided was good for We The People, as in "promoting the general welfare" of us. That phrase, general welfare, shows up a few times in our Constitution.


Do you even know what state capture means? You have large corporations writing legislation that favours them and screws you, and "donating" to your politicians to ensure that they vote it through without reading it. That is the very definition of state capture. It doesn't have to be in your constitution to be built into your system. Systems evolve. And isn't this exactly why the whole "get money out of politics" idea is a thing?

You might be under the misapprehension that I'm advocating for unregulated medical sector: I'm not. I'm strongly in favour of a health service with single payer funding. I'm just profoundly tired of seeing bad arguments about health care on this forum. Arguments about corporate tax credits or what the republicans think is a distraction. Public vs private health is a false dichotomy. You have both already and both apparently cost you a fortune. And I don't need to go to tiny wealthy city-states for examples of private healthcare that's both excellent and (much more) affordable.

I'll repeat my suggestion: So why not do the same with health insurance? Pick one insurer. Organise. You know, like after 47's inauguration. 5 million people in the freezing cold. Get everyone to move their insurance away from your target. It will only take 10-20% of their customer base before the rest suddenly develop a keen interest in what their customers want.

Or continue with the badmouthing republicans. That's worked real well so far.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:32 pm
by seb146
seat64k wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Tax breaks for corporations and the very wealthy is not even part of the health care debate, so I don't know why you brought it up.


Because you did:

seb146 wrote:
We still can not afford health care or education or housing but hurray that big business make money from tax credits! I don't think so. A few people should benefit and the vast majority should be miserable and live near or at poverty because of one list? Give me a break.


Do you even read your own posts? You made the connection twice!

seb146 wrote:
Then, you go on to mash several different subjects together and it just got confusing. Retail stores make profits because they are able to sell huge quantities of crap that we don't need and convincing us that we really really need it.


No no no. You're the only one who's confused. Whether or not something is retail is of no consequence here. You need food. Food is retail. Food is dirt cheap in the US. You need clothes too. Clothes are retail too. Clothes - at least the basics - are dirt cheap in the US too. As far as I know, you don't have regulation that prohibits Target and Walmart for negotiating prices with manufacturers. But you do have regulation that prohibit Medicare from negotiating drug prices.

There is no reason why healthcare can't be affordable when you actually have competition in the market. But you don't, as you describe below:

seb146 wrote:
There is little oversight for what insurance companies charge for things like routine doctor visits, routine vaccines, medications, etc. So, those specific companies charge whatever they want.


And did I not specifically tell you to take action against insurance companies? I noticed you conveniently snipped that paragraph from your response.

seb146 wrote:
On a completely different topic that has nothing at all to do with retail, we need health care.


Complaining about tax cuts for the wealthy - which you did - will not get you anywhere closer to affordable healthcare. Complaining about what republicans do or think - which you also did - will also not get you any closer to affordable healthcare.

seb146 wrote:
"State capture" health care is NOT "built into" our political system. It is something progressive law makers decided was good for We The People, as in "promoting the general welfare" of us. That phrase, general welfare, shows up a few times in our Constitution.


Do you even know what state capture means? You have large corporations writing legislation that favours them and screws you, and "donating" to your politicians to ensure that they vote it through without reading it. That is the very definition of state capture. It doesn't have to be in your constitution to be built into your system. Systems evolve. And isn't this exactly why the whole "get money out of politics" idea is a thing?

You might be under the misapprehension that I'm advocating for unregulated medical sector: I'm not. I'm strongly in favour of a health service with single payer funding. I'm just profoundly tired of seeing bad arguments about health care on this forum. Arguments about corporate tax credits or what the republicans think is a distraction. Public vs private health is a false dichotomy. You have both already and both apparently cost you a fortune. And I don't need to go to tiny wealthy city-states for examples of private healthcare that's both excellent and (much more) affordable.

I'll repeat my suggestion: So why not do the same with health insurance? Pick one insurer. Organise. You know, like after 47's inauguration. 5 million people in the freezing cold. Get everyone to move their insurance away from your target. It will only take 10-20% of their customer base before the rest suddenly develop a keen interest in what their customers want.

Or continue with the badmouthing republicans. That's worked real well so far.


Looking at your spelling, you are not from North America, so you have no skin in the game. You have no idea what you are talking about. You wrote a lot of words that sound like typical "I got mine, everyone else is lazy" Republican talk. Republicans constantly try to defund Medicade and Medicare because why should poor people have health care?

We were told in the 2016 run-up that Republicans have a great plan to replace ACA. Where is it? Where is this plan that costs less and covers more? Oh, that's right.... we will see it after the 2020 election. Until then, we have to live with for-profit health care only. Give the corporations more money so we can get less in services. The party of Christianity and the Bible loves the almighty dollar!

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:49 pm
by bhill
Seems they need to include stagnant wages as one of the reasons as well..

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:09 pm
by seat64k
seb146 wrote:
Looking at your spelling, you are not from North America, so you have no skin in the game. You have no idea what you are talking about. You wrote a lot of words that sound like typical "I got mine, everyone else is lazy" Republican talk. Republicans constantly try to defund Medicade and Medicare because why should poor people have health care?

We were told in the 2016 run-up that Republicans have a great plan to replace ACA. Where is it? Where is this plan that costs less and covers more? Oh, that's right.... we will see it after the 2020 election. Until then, we have to live with for-profit health care only. Give the corporations more money so we can get less in services. The party of Christianity and the Bible loves the almighty dollar!


My spelling might be funny but at least I can read.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:31 pm
by zakuivcustom
bhill wrote:
Seems they need to include stagnant wages as one of the reasons as well..


Except the 2nd place finisher (Hong Kong) has stagnant wage along with an increasing wealth gap also. What HK (and Singapore) does have is low (business and personal) tax, relatively lax regulation, and a relatively robust justice system (well, for HK, as long as they don't pass that stupid extradition law that would make sure all the capitals go to Singapore). The former two being common theme of "business friendly" environment that Republican (the "country club type" as I call them) clamor.

Well, except in US, with that deficit that's just going to keep going up, they can only lower tax so much without affecting the economy as a whole. Regulation-wise, things like tariffs are government interference in the economy, and is bad for competitiveness (alongside other regulations, of course).

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:24 pm
by Magog
seb146 wrote:
Looking at your spelling, you are not from North America,

Canadians would beg to differ.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:15 am
by 777Jet
seb146 wrote:
And he still received massive tax credits which he frittered away on poor investments and got it all back by shuffling his daddy's money around. You know why the very wealthy pay little or no taxes while the rest of us prop them up? Because they have enough revenue streams that can be justified in not paying taxes. Rolling over various assets and investments so they don't have to pay taxes. And they still have not created good paying jobs and lowered the cost of health care, education, and housing like you Reaganites claim.


Don't hate the player hate the game.

So much hatred in you it's funny.

Do you have any money? If so, where did you get it from?

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:21 am
by Magog
It’s absurd to say that the wealthy pay “little to no taxes.” The top one percent of income earners contribute over a quarter of all federal revenues. The top quintile pays 69%.

So, no. You definitely aren’t “propping them up.” Quite the opposite.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:56 am
by seb146
Magog wrote:
It’s absurd to say that the wealthy pay “little to no taxes.” The top one percent of income earners contribute over a quarter of all federal revenues. The top quintile pays 69%.

So, no. You definitely aren’t “propping them up.” Quite the opposite.


The top 1% paid less in taxes last year while we working at the bottom paid more than we had in years past. Also, that tax break for the elite is permanent. The tax "break" for us working stiffs expires in seven years. Also, the elite's income is very very different than we the people who work. Their income is based on capital gains and taxes we can not pay because we do not make enough. They pay taxes for shuffling money around, we pay taxes for working. And we still have to work for low wages and pay higher taxes and get no benefits other than giving tax breaks to companies shipping jobs overseas or to Kentucky because McConnell needs help getting reelected to sit around and do nothing for We The People except confirming activist right wing judges to legislate from the bench.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-tax- ... 0bf4aa4b6c
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 074df7f284
https://americansfortaxfairness.org/tax ... americans/

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:46 am
by Magog
seb146 wrote:

The top 1% paid less in taxes last year while we working at the bottom paid more than we had in years past.

This statement is patently false. Your opinion is shaped by a falsehood. It’s time to reasses your opinion.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:12 am
by Aaron747
Magog wrote:
It’s absurd to say that the wealthy pay “little to no taxes.” The top one percent of income earners contribute over a quarter of all federal revenues. The top quintile pays 69%.

So, no. You definitely aren’t “propping them up.” Quite the opposite.


This argument turns completely specious when you focus solely on proportion of government revenue and conveniently omit the importance of tax burden relative to net worth.

Ray Dalio, Bill Gates, William Buffett, Jamie Dimon, Howard Schultz, Morris Pearl and “Patriotic Millionaires” etc all insist in interview after interview that their bracket is undertaxed. The HNWIs not saying that are the greediest - the Waltons, Bezos, GS freaks like Blankfein, and so on.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:27 am
by Magog
Aaron747 wrote:
Magog wrote:
It’s absurd to say that the wealthy pay “little to no taxes.” The top one percent of income earners contribute over a quarter of all federal revenues. The top quintile pays 69%.

So, no. You definitely aren’t “propping them up.” Quite the opposite.


This argument turns completely specious when you focus solely on proportion of government revenue and conveniently omit the importance of tax burden relative to net worth.

Ray Dalio, Bill Gates, William Buffett, Jamie Dimon, Howard Schultz, Morris Pearl and “Patriotic Millionaires” etc all insist in interview after interview that their bracket is undertaxed. The HNWIs not saying that are the greediest - the Waltons, Bezos, GS freaks like Blankfein, and so on.

They can insist whatever they want. But they cannot deny numbers. The numbers clearly show that the rich are not being “propped up” by low wage earners, nor do they pay “little to no taxes.”

I will also note that all of them are free to write bigger checks, but none do. It’s virtue signaling at its finest.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:18 pm
by Aaron747
Magog wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Magog wrote:
It’s absurd to say that the wealthy pay “little to no taxes.” The top one percent of income earners contribute over a quarter of all federal revenues. The top quintile pays 69%.

So, no. You definitely aren’t “propping them up.” Quite the opposite.


This argument turns completely specious when you focus solely on proportion of government revenue and conveniently omit the importance of tax burden relative to net worth.

Ray Dalio, Bill Gates, William Buffett, Jamie Dimon, Howard Schultz, Morris Pearl and “Patriotic Millionaires” etc all insist in interview after interview that their bracket is undertaxed. The HNWIs not saying that are the greediest - the Waltons, Bezos, GS freaks like Blankfein, and so on.

They can insist whatever they want. But they cannot deny numbers. The numbers clearly show that the rich are not being “propped up” by low wage earners, nor do they pay “little to no taxes.”

I will also note that all of them are free to write bigger checks, but none do. It’s virtue signaling at its finest.


Total nonsense - they do far more than that. Buffett has given over $45 billion in charitable donations in the last 20 years, the Gates Foundation is $51 billion strong at this moment, Dalio's philanthropic organization is in the ten figures as well. You also say 'deny numbers' yet I pointed out tax burden relative to net worth - which is the whole point of 'little to no taxes'. Want to try again buddy-o?

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:44 pm
by Magog
Aaron747 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

This argument turns completely specious when you focus solely on proportion of government revenue and conveniently omit the importance of tax burden relative to net worth.

Ray Dalio, Bill Gates, William Buffett, Jamie Dimon, Howard Schultz, Morris Pearl and “Patriotic Millionaires” etc all insist in interview after interview that their bracket is undertaxed. The HNWIs not saying that are the greediest - the Waltons, Bezos, GS freaks like Blankfein, and so on.

They can insist whatever they want. But they cannot deny numbers. The numbers clearly show that the rich are not being “propped up” by low wage earners, nor do they pay “little to no taxes.”

I will also note that all of them are free to write bigger checks, but none do. It’s virtue signaling at its finest.


Total nonsense - they do far more than that. Buffett has given over $45 billion in charitable donations in the last 20 years, the Gates Foundation is $51 billion strong at this moment, Dalio's philanthropic organization is in the ten figures as well. You also say 'deny numbers' yet I pointed out tax burden relative to net worth - which is the whole point of 'little to no taxes'. Want to try again buddy-o?

So they haven’t paid a nickel extra in taxes. Got it. Pure virtue signaling.

And no, we tax income, not net worth. Our income taxation was criticized. It is the simple reality that, under our income taxation scheme, the poor do not “prop up” the rich, nor do the rich pay “little to no taxes.”

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:29 pm
by Aaron747
Magog wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Magog wrote:
They can insist whatever they want. But they cannot deny numbers. The numbers clearly show that the rich are not being “propped up” by low wage earners, nor do they pay “little to no taxes.”

I will also note that all of them are free to write bigger checks, but none do. It’s virtue signaling at its finest.


Total nonsense - they do far more than that. Buffett has given over $45 billion in charitable donations in the last 20 years, the Gates Foundation is $51 billion strong at this moment, Dalio's philanthropic organization is in the ten figures as well. You also say 'deny numbers' yet I pointed out tax burden relative to net worth - which is the whole point of 'little to no taxes'. Want to try again buddy-o?

So they haven’t paid a nickel extra in taxes. Got it. Pure virtue signaling.

And no, we tax income, not net worth. Our income taxation was criticized. It is the simple reality that, under our income taxation scheme, the poor do not “prop up” the rich, nor do the rich pay “little to no taxes.”


Income is also relative to net worth, thanks for playing.

Image

Image

Image

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:32 pm
by Magog
Let me explain this again in very simple terms. The United States does not tax wealth. It taxes income. So within our statutory framework the rich are paying their fair share of taxes. If you want to discuss what a complete overhaul of the tax system should look like, that’s a completely different matter.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:48 pm
by seb146
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:

The top 1% paid less in taxes last year while we working at the bottom paid more than we had in years past.

This statement is patently false. Your opinion is shaped by a falsehood. It’s time to reasses your opinion.


Actually, my opinion is shaped by what I see in real life. Growing up poor in the United States during the Reagan years does that to a person. It is time to reassess your opinions.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:50 pm
by seb146
Magog wrote:
Let me explain this again in very simple terms. The United States does not tax wealth. It taxes income.


Right. So, these CEOs who receive $1 a year in income as salary are not taxed. Thanks for proving our point.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ceos-wh ... ess-2015-8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-dollar_salary

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:14 pm
by Magog
seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Let me explain this again in very simple terms. The United States does not tax wealth. It taxes income.


Right. So, these CEOs who receive $1 a year in income as salary are not taxed. Thanks for proving our point.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ceos-wh ... ess-2015-8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-dollar_salary

I hope you understand that people with wealth do not leave it sitting under their mattress. Even if it is deposited in a bank, funds are used to make loans for entrepreneurship, for home ownership, etc. That is what drives the economy.

I have absolutely no problem with a CEO who earns one dollar a year not being taxed. That is because, as I’ve explained many times, we do not tax wealth in the United States. And they were most certainly taxed on the income that they received in order to generate their wealth. If you want to start a new thread on whether or not we should tax wealth, that would be an interesting discussion. It’s rather odd, however, that you were critical of the United States dropping in economic competitiveness yet you seem to be advocating for a policy that would drastically reduce our position on that same list. It’s as if you were trying to have it both ways.

Another area in which you clearly want to have it both ways is being critical of CEOs that take high salaries, yet insisting that those who don’t suffer some sort of tax penalty for choosing to take less from their company.

Good economic policy is not nearly so scattershot.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:25 am
by Aaron747
Magog wrote:
Let me explain this again in very simple terms. The United States does not tax wealth. It taxes income. So within our statutory framework the rich are paying their fair share of taxes. If you want to discuss what a complete overhaul of the tax system should look like, that’s a completely different matter.


Pure obfuscation. Obviously everyone who makes the claim the wealthy are undertaxed are taking that position from the basis of tax burden, not income. The 1% and 0.1% saying same are using the same basis - Ray Dalio called the current imbalance ‘unsustainable’ due to the inevitable conflict it generates within society.

Re: US Economy Drops To No3 in Competitiveness

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:21 am
by Magog
Aaron747 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Let me explain this again in very simple terms. The United States does not tax wealth. It taxes income. So within our statutory framework the rich are paying their fair share of taxes. If you want to discuss what a complete overhaul of the tax system should look like, that’s a completely different matter.


Pure obfuscation. Obviously everyone who makes the claim the wealthy are undertaxed are taking that position from the basis of tax burden, not income. The 1% and 0.1% saying same are using the same basis - Ray Dalio called the current imbalance ‘unsustainable’ due to the inevitable conflict it generates within society.

They’ve already been taxed on their wealth - when it was earned.