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Dutchy
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June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:44 am

It has been 30 years since the massacre of Tiananmen Square protests. It has been a profound memory and was a turning point in Chinese history. If the students were successful at that time, China could have turned itself in a much more democratic state, instead of 1984 on steriods state it is now. Since that time the Chinse seem to be obsessed with economic gains and leave politics aside.

The death toll ranges from the official figure of 241 to 2.700 (estimate by diplomats at the time) along with 6.000 - 7.000 wounded (official figures).

Source

The students were right of course. It is as true today, as it was 30 years ago. And yet the number of autocratic regimes seem to be on the rise again and people - including on this forum in free western societies - seem to fall in love again with autocratic leaders: the strong man. So in this day and age we need to remember these brace students, whom got the gutch to stand up against the all powerfull parti apparatus.

Image

Image

The most iconic picture of the Tiananmen Square:

Image
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:10 pm

Sad day in history but at some point there will be a repeat or something that breaks the choke hold.

Honestly when this happened the worse thing was that the world went along with it. Something like what the USA is doing now with China and tariffs should have been done then in response. And by the world. I get that economic integration is one of the best ways to encourage peace and peaceful power. But to not react to things like this is not "peace".

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slider
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:24 pm

Tank Man remains a hero of mine. We still don't know who he is, what happened to him (probably murdered), but I cannot fathom the amount of moral courage it would take to do what he did. And in the process, become legend. That picture is iconic and profound.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
Honestly when this happened the worse thing was that the world went along with it. Something like what the USA is doing now with China and tariffs should have been done then in response. And by the world. I get that economic integration is one of the best ways to encourage peace and peaceful power. But to not react to things like this is not "peace".


There was definitely short-term economic effect back in 1989 - foreign economic aids dropped by ~70-80%, loans were suspended, and if anything, it pushed the rise of China back almost a decade (i.e. WTO entry). Of course, all those are short-lived, and within a decade, people forget about those students and only remember the fact that they can earn tons of renminbi.

Of course, now that Chinese population overall is a lot richer than they were in 1989, the voice of discontent is shut off b/c to your average people, "anything that cause chaos will make the economy worst, and thus, less money for them". Chinese gov't is fully playing that game, and had so far been successful. Not surprisingly, many autocratic gov't follow the "Chinese model" to further strengthen their power grip.

Hack, even in HK, all I see is "Democracy can't feed people" mentality.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:22 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Honestly when this happened the worse thing was that the world went along with it. Something like what the USA is doing now with China and tariffs should have been done then in response. And by the world. I get that economic integration is one of the best ways to encourage peace and peaceful power. But to not react to things like this is not "peace".


There was definitely short-term economic effect back in 1989 - foreign economic aids dropped by ~70-80%, loans were suspended, and if anything, it pushed the rise of China back almost a decade (i.e. WTO entry). Of course, all those are short-lived, and within a decade, people forget about those students and only remember the fact that they can earn tons of renminbi.

Of course, now that Chinese population overall is a lot richer than they were in 1989, the voice of discontent is shut off b/c to your average people, "anything that cause chaos will make the economy worst, and thus, less money for them". Chinese gov't is fully playing that game, and had so far been successful. Not surprisingly, many autocratic gov't follow the "Chinese model" to further strengthen their power grip.

Hack, even in HK, all I see is "Democracy can't feed people" mentality.


Yes, the implicit pact between the Chinese government and the Chinese: 7% economic growth for keeping quiet about civil liberties.
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:23 pm

slider wrote:
Tank Man remains a hero of mine. We still don't know who he is, what happened to him (probably murdered), but I cannot fathom the amount of moral courage it would take to do what he did. And in the process, become legend. That picture is iconic and profound.


Agree with 100% of your contribution, he is also a hero, one man against the state.
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anrec80
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:51 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Hack, even in HK, all I see is "Democracy can't feed people" mentality.


Well - isn’t this how it works? In addition to freedom, people need opportunities to earn for their living. Civil liberties alone don’t cut it.
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the implicit pact between the Chinese government and the Chinese: 7% economic growth for keeping quiet about civil liberties.


So the alternative would be civil liberties and extreme poverty. And civil liberties don’t quite go well with poverty, you know.
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:55 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the implicit pact between the Chinese government and the Chinese: 7% economic growth for keeping quiet about civil liberties.


So the alternative would be civil liberties and extreme poverty. And civil liberties don’t quite go well with poverty, you know.


The list of nations with 100+ years of civil liberties and extraordinary wealth per capita is much, much longer than the list of countries without many, if any, civil liberties and significant wealth per capita. China has indeed broken that mold. Sadly, Russia has neither but you do have Putin and that makes up for it! Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread, if they did China’s GDP might drop to 2% overnight. It’s hard to imagine much good coming from a country addicted to nothing but consumption and that doesn’t tolerate free expression or dissent, what could possibly go wrong?
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:37 am

wingman wrote:
Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread

Why do you think they can’t read this? We have several Chinese members. I posted from China regularly on a.net.
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:45 am

N14AZ wrote:
wingman wrote:
Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread

Why do you think they can’t read this? We have several Chinese members. I posted from China regularly on a.net.


This very subject isn't going well with the Chinese authorities, so it will most probably be blocked. If you try to Google for Tiananmen Square from a Chinese IP you will get totally different results than here in the west.
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
wingman wrote:
Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread

Why do you think they can’t read this? We have several Chinese members. I posted from China regularly on a.net.


This very subject isn't going well with the Chinese authorities, so it will most probably be blocked.

I am not sure if I understood your sentence correctly. You think this topic here will be blocked? I think this is technically impossible. They would have to block the entire Non-Aviation-Forum. As I said, I use almost all a.net forums when travelling in China reguarly. Let's make a test. Any Chinese members on-line? Can you open this thread? If you do not want to post here you could send Dutchy or me a PM.

Dutchy wrote:
If you try to Google for Tiananmen Square from a Chinese IP you will get totally different results than here in the west.

You cannot use Google in China, it's blocked in China. :-) I usually use Baidu. And yes, the results are different, of course.
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:50 am

N14AZ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If you try to Google for Tiananmen Square from a Chinese IP you will get totally different results than here in the west.

You cannot use Google in China, it's blocked in China. :-) I usually use Baidu. And yes, the results are different, of course.


Yes, of course, and by different you mean censored ;)
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:48 am

It's not just economic growth. You have to keep in mind Chinese citizens are brainwashed from birth. A good number see through it at some point, but not enough to foment a revolution. So far.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:33 pm

Aesma wrote:
It's not just economic growth. You have to keep in mind Chinese citizens are brainwashed from birth. A good number see through it at some point, but not enough to foment a revolution. So far.


Indeed, "Nationalistic" Education exploded after Tiananmen. Just go to random Chinese forums it's scary how brainwashed some of the young netizens are. Now, netizens do criticized the gov't from time to time, but those criticism are more or less limited to complaints about some rich kids (or children of high-level officials) getting away with their stupid antics/crimes.

Ultimately, though, Chinese gov't right now depends on a robust economy to keep the "harmonized society" going. Right now they still have the US gov't to blame (albeit rightfully) for any probable woes if the trade wars continue, but that can't last forever.

As for revolution - good luck with that. There's just not a lot of incentive for your regular Chinese citizen right now to go all-out protest. Plus, any dissent is going to get silent very quickly with that 1984 surveillance anyway.

Hack, even in "free" HK, where societal problems are much deeper with an unpopular (and IMHO, totally inept) gov't, they had been able to silent the young activists, denied them representation, and just ignore any protest by playing "strongman" (or strongwoman in HK case). Well, as long as big business doesn't protest, that is (like the current extradition bill).
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:42 pm

The events of Tiananmen Square are absolutely removed from all Chinese history, no media mentions, it's completely suppressed internally.

First time I was in PEK, I did an organized tour and asked our tour guide about it. He looked around suspiciously, said he couldn't talk about it. Later, he elaborated somewhat but indicated that the topic is verboten.

Tank Man deserves better. To this day.
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:28 pm

slider wrote:
The events of Tiananmen Square are absolutely removed from all Chinese history, no media mentions, it's completely suppressed internally.

First time I was in PEK, I did an organized tour and asked our tour guide about it. He looked around suspiciously, said he couldn't talk about it. Later, he elaborated somewhat but indicated that the topic is verboten.

Tank Man deserves better. To this day.


He does, and i think he lives on in our memory in the western world. i remember watching the news as the events in Tiananmen square unfolded. To think that the Chinese swept that up right into oblivion is a tragedy.
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:32 pm

N14AZ wrote:
wingman wrote:
Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread

Why do you think they can’t read this? We have several Chinese members. I posted from China regularly on a.net.


I’ve always wondered at the mechanics of censorship on a site like this one. Do they erase the thread? Do they block A.net in totality until the thread falls off the main page? Or do they change Tiananmen to Times Square and pretend this is all about Imperialist Americans shooting up their own citizens in New York City? Whatever the case it’s a little taste of what’s to come when China rules half the internet. No thanks. I’d happily give up some lifestyle for my guaranteed freedom of thought and expression. Just imagine Goebbels running the Great Firewall with a 1B+ captive audience and funds beyond his imagination. It’s the scariest prospect of the 21st century.
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:36 pm

wingman wrote:
[Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread, if they did China’s GDP might drop to 2% overnight. It’s hard to imagine much good coming from a country addicted to nothing but consumption and that doesn’t tolerate free expression or dissent, what could possibly go wrong?

I can confirm that when I was in China I had no difficulty reading A.net.
I don't understand the link between Chinese members reading this thread and drop in Chinese GDP and I am sad to see the usual ignorance about China and Chinese people parading itself again.

Yes, the spirit of the Tiananmen Square protest is laudable. It is romantic however unrealistic to expect a country with ~5000 years history of central authoritarian rule would change into a truly democratic country overnight or over a short period even IF the protesting students succeeded. I would also go as far as saying in the context of what China was like in 1989, I am not quite sure implementation of a more comprehensively democratic political system would be or should be a top priority then. Before any member jump up and down and shout "how dare you", think about whether you would rather live in a country where you live with 4 members of your family in a 20m2 dwelling, have a lean quota on how much food you can buy and things like meat and eggs are viewed as a treat but you retain your right to vote and express openly, or what your current life is like but you lose the aforementioned rights. Addicted to consumption you say? People only say that when they have no financial concerns. I guarantee you that if you are down to your last 100 dollars/euros/pounds you would be applying for jobs and sending CVs rather than worrying about who is in government or protesting about perceived injustice/inequality in life.

Chinese people are smart. Of course they understand the many advantages of a full democracy. The question is if they would risk losing what they have to achieve this. For most people, the answer at this stage is probably not. However only those who see the world in black and white believes the interaction between the government and the people is a one way street. Just because people can't shout "down with CCP" in the town square doesn't mean they are devoid of free thinking. Only the ignorant believe that the Chinese government is not in tune with popular trend and hot button issues just like any “Western” government would be, or they are less inclined to deliver on those issues. Another member mentioned the 7% annual economic growth. Economic growth is important, vital even, but it is not the entire deal. China today is a much freer and more informed country than the China in 1989, although it could be validly argued that it is not free enough.

Oh, about dissent. The so called leader of the free world could not (or at least those around him thought he could not) even tolerate seeing a ship named after one of his critics. He wants to throw those who investigated him as part of legitimate work into prison for treason and he fires whoever has more brain cells than him. What could possibly go wrong??
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Cerecl
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Aesma wrote:
It's not just economic growth. You have to keep in mind Chinese citizens are brainwashed from birth. A good number see through it at some point, but not enough to foment a revolution. So far.

Again, ignorance on full show here. I just can't get over how so many genuinely believe this stuff. You might as well have said Chinese citizens are robots and have chips implanted into their brain.

People know authoritarian rule has its many problems, some of them severely limiting the future potential of their country. They have probably all encountered issues with the political system and its giant governmental devices in one way or another. They know the country is heavily polluted, they know corruption is a massive problem and many know that people in some other countries enjoy rights and freedom that are not yet available to them. But they learn to live in the system and make a life for themselves. Most just don't rate politics as a top priority and consequently don't think a revolution is necessarily going to solve all these problem and guarantee a better life. If people understands anything about Chinese history, they will know that what catalysed dynasties' rise and fall was drastic changes in living standard, caused by war, invasions or gross incompetence of administration. I can't see how this would be different in the era we live in now.
Last edited by Cerecl on Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:51 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Hack, even in "free" HK, where societal problems are much deeper with an unpopular (and IMHO, totally inept) gov't, they had been able to silent the young activists, denied them representation, and just ignore any protest by playing "strongman" (or strongwoman in HK case). Well, as long as big business doesn't protest, that is (like the current extradition bill).


Can't help but think that the issues facing HK are first world issues and its "societal problems", however deep, are pretty trivial compared to may other countries/regions
I do think however that HK gives the impression that it is lost. It lost its old identity yet doesn't want forge a new one. Many HKers still haven't got to terms with its inevitable closer relationship with the rest of China. Rather than proactively cast its own fortune it passively react and complain. It is a pity because HK has so much to offer. Instead of becoming a beacon it increasingly and inexplicably resembles an adrift boat.

Would the "young activists" be those who get on the street as soon as anything to do with the Mainland develops? I don't think you need to worry too much about them being silenced or unrepresented. I am pretty sure currently there are some very willing ears in Washington DC and if I am not mistaken their representatives were there not too long ago? I don't know about "strongman" or "strongwoman"-in my book a strongman regime wouldn't let those who disrupt (I acknowledge the fine line between exercising right of free speech and causing disruption sometimes) go scotch free and instead locking up decorated policemen charged with maintaining social order (again fine line between doing their job and exerting excessive force at times).
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If you try to Google for Tiananmen Square from a Chinese IP you will get totally different results than here in the west.

You cannot use Google in China, it's blocked in China. :-) I usually use Baidu. And yes, the results are different, of course.


Yes, of course, and by different you mean censored ;)

Yes, correct. Censored.

@ Cerecl: all your comments are spot on and there is nothing to add.

I wouldn’t call myself a China-fan but I am a huge fan of facts and it’s always annoying to see how people post „fake news“ in such threads. Yes, I said fake news. In a way members posting untruths are not better than Trump.

wingman wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
wingman wrote:
Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread

Why do you think they can’t read this? We have several Chinese members. I posted from China regularly on a.net.


I’ve always wondered at the mechanics of censorship on a site like this one. Do they erase the thread? Do they block A.net in totality until the thread falls off the main page? Or do they change Tiananmen to Times Square and pretend this is all about Imperialist Americans shooting up their own citizens in New York City? Whatever the case it’s a little taste of what’s to come when China rules half the internet. No thanks. I’d happily give up some lifestyle for my guaranteed freedom of thought and expression. Just imagine Goebbels running the Great Firewall with a 1B+ captive audience and funds beyond his imagination. It’s the scariest prospect of the 21st century.

As Cerecl and I posted, you can always see the entire forum boards.

I just booked my next business trip to China in September. I will open this thread when I am there and try to post a „hello“ from there.
 
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Tugger
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:50 pm

Cerecl wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Hack, even in "free" HK, where societal problems are much deeper with an unpopular (and IMHO, totally inept) gov't, they had been able to silent the young activists, denied them representation, and just ignore any protest by playing "strongman" (or strongwoman in HK case). Well, as long as big business doesn't protest, that is (like the current extradition bill).


Can't help but think that the issues facing HK are first world issues and its "societal problems", however deep, are pretty trivial compared to may other countries/regions
I do think however that HK gives the impression that it is lost. It lost its old identity yet doesn't want forge a new one. Many HKers still haven't got to terms with its inevitable closer relationship with the rest of China. Rather than proactively cast its own fortune it passively react and complain. It is a pity because HK has so much to offer. Instead of becoming a beacon it increasingly and inexplicably resembles an adrift boat.

Would the "young activists" be those who get on the street as soon as anything to do with the Mainland develops? I don't think you need to worry too much about them being silenced or unrepresented. I am pretty sure currently there are some very willing ears in Washington DC and if I am not mistaken their representatives were there not too long ago? I don't know about "strongman" or "strongwoman"-in my book a strongman regime wouldn't let those who disrupt (I acknowledge the fine line between exercising right of free speech and causing disruption sometimes) go scotch free and instead locking up decorated policemen charged with maintaining social order (again fine line between doing their job and exerting excessive force at times).

This is an interesting article/opinion piece on this. I think it is real.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/opin ... anmen.html

Taiwan will be the real interesting case going forward.

Tugg
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wingman
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:18 pm

Cerecl wrote:
I can confirm that when I was in China I had no difficulty reading A.net.
I don't understand the link between Chinese members reading this thread and drop in Chinese GDP and I am sad to see the usual ignorance about China and Chinese people parading itself again.

Oh, about dissent. The so called leader of the free world could not (or at least those around him thought he could not) even tolerate seeing a ship named after one of his critics. He wants to throw those who investigated him as part of legitimate work into prison for treason and he fires whoever has more brain cells than him. What could possibly go wrong??


My comment about GDP was in reference to another poster implying that in China prosperity and freedom of expression are mutually exclusive. I pointed out that there are too many examples of other nations proving out the opposite over the long term to call that implication into question. You seem to imply the same in your full post but I just don’t buy it. You’re right that Chinese people are smart, they’re amongst the smartest and hardest working in the world. But it does them a great disservice to believe that they would be incapable of open dissent and full freedom of expression and not be able to work, earn money and still love their country. In fact, it’s absurd. The US, all of Europe and a significant and very free and wealthy chunk of Asia prove that out.

As for Trump, the man is an utter embarrassment and stain on my nation’s history. I can say that freely, curse him here and on the streets, and still keep my job and love my country. It’s a shame Chinese people don’t have that choice. Maybe they will some day.
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:35 pm

N14AZ wrote:

I just booked my next business trip to China in September. I will open this thread when I am there and try to post a „hello“ from there.


Open this thread titled Tiananmen from your hotel room in Beijing using Baidu and say something in defense of Tank Man. I’ll be duly impressed.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
This is an interesting article/opinion piece on this. I think it is real.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/opin ... anmen.html


It's written by one of the "young activist" that I was referring to anyway.

Cerecl wrote:
I don't think you need to worry too much about them being silenced or unrepresented.


I have to disagree with this.

Tell me, how is not letting an activist run for LegCo just b/c their ideal are deem "extreme" not "silencing" them? How is kicking people that were legitimately elected, by people's vote (and voice), out of LegCo just b/c they were more or less deem "not necessary" not denying representation?

Ok, you got one police officer being jailed for beating up protesters right in front of TV camera. So perhaps HK is still govern by law rather than govern by people. On the other hand, what's to say that the police officer is not being used as a scapegoat just to show "See, HK is not as bad as China"?

Cerecl wrote:
Can't help but think that the issues facing HK are first world issues and its "societal problems", however deep, are pretty trivial compared to may other countries/regions


Yes, it's a lot more "first world" than many places. That doesn't mean they're not problems that all gov't had been doing is "just ignore them and they'll go away eventually".

Hack, PRC gov't knows how to "shut people up" as they know fully that as long as people prosper (i.e. have a roof over their head, stable jobs, etc.) that they care less about the governance system. HK gov't? They want to totally rule over the people, but doesn't want to do the dirty job of providing for their citizens b/c that's against HK's "Free Economy" principle. The end result? A totally unhappy city with productivity continuing to fall behind rest of the world (including mainland China), meanwhile clamoring for the "good old days" when they were the one and only middleman between China and the "western" world.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm for "authoritative gov't" with Chinese characteristics, b/c we all know that their economy can't be propped up for forever. What's to stop Chinese people from mass protesting and point their fingers directly at central gov't once a major economic downturn happen, only for another Tiananmen incident to occurred as Chinese gov't fight to stay in power?
 
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:39 pm

wingman wrote:
N14AZ wrote:

I just booked my next business trip to China in September. I will open this thread when I am there and try to post a „hello“ from there.


Open this thread titled Tiananmen from your hotel room in Beijing using Baidu and say something in defense of Tank Man. I’ll be duly impressed.

Yeah, there is no way this thread is visible there on dosmesticly consumed web services. There might be something different for hotels with pipelines outside (so visitors do see the extent of the suppression) but not for locals and local China services.

Tugg
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:24 pm

Tugger wrote:
wingman wrote:
N14AZ wrote:

I just booked my next business trip to China in September. I will open this thread when I am there and try to post a „hello“ from there.


Open this thread titled Tiananmen from your hotel room in Beijing using Baidu and say something in defense of Tank Man. I’ll be duly impressed.

Yeah, there is no way this thread is visible there on dosmesticly consumed web services. There might be something different for hotels with pipelines outside (so visitors do see the extent of the suppression) but not for locals and local China services.

Tugg

I will try to open this thread from outside the hotel using my roaming package, meaning the national mobile telecom providers.

I really hope you will send me a cake with a hacksaw inside in case you are right and I am wrong.. :boggled:
 
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Tugger
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:33 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yeah, there is no way this thread is visible there on dosmesticly consumed web services. There might be something different for hotels with pipelines outside (so visitors do see the extent of the suppression) but not for locals and local China services.

Tugg

I will try to open this thread from outside the hotel using my roaming package, meaning the national mobile telecom providers.

I really hope you will send me a cake with a hacksaw inside in case you are right and I am wrong..

As long as it can be sent electronically.... oh wait...crap.... ;)

You have me curious, and good luck!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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Cerecl
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:07 pm

wingman wrote:
You seem to imply the same in your full post but I just don’t buy it. You’re right that Chinese people are smart, they’re amongst the smartest and hardest working in the world. But it does them a great disservice to believe that they would be incapable of open dissent and full freedom of expression and not be able to work, earn money and still love their country. In fact, it’s absurd. The US, all of Europe and a significant and very free and wealthy chunk of Asia prove that out.
As for Trump, the man is an utter embarrassment and stain on my nation’s history. I can say that freely, curse him here and on the streets, and still keep my job and love my country. It’s a shame Chinese people don’t have that choice. Maybe they will some day.


Your expression was a bit ambiguous so I am not entirely sure what you thought I implied. If you thought that I implied that prosperity and democracy are mutually exclusive, then I certainly did not. Most people just don't rate political freedom as that important an issue at this stage, which shouldn't be a surprise because most people, not just Chinese people, have little to no interest in politics. What people outside Chinese culture often don't appreciate enough is the strong desire for stability. An imperfect but still quite livable future with fairly high degree of certainty is often preferred over a potential fantastic but uncertain future at an individual level. Again, have an understanding of the Chinese History would probably better inform people how the future may unfold.

P.s. I think you need to be vigilant about your perceived freedom. Trump and Trumpism are changing the fundamental fibres of your society. The navy personnels who wore MAGA patches reminds me of Wehrmacht members in 1930s-40s.
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Cerecl
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:

Tell me, how is not letting an activist run for LegCo just b/c their ideal are deem "extreme" not "silencing" them? How is kicking people that were legitimately elected, by people's vote (and voice), out of LegCo just b/c they were more or less deem "not necessary" not denying representation?


I don't think the society has an obligation to tolerate all extreme views or let these views be represented. At an individual level, two of those kicked out the LegCo deliberately used derogatory terms to refer to Chinese people and China. If you despise CCP, fine, your freedom your view. But at least be an adult and man up to the fact that HK is now part of China and will remain so unless China completely collapses or disintegrates. Do you really want two immature brats who couldn't even put themselves together long enough to be sworn in, let alone putting forward their point through debates and legislation, as they are elected to do, to actually sit in the representative chamber? Do you think similar behaviour would be tolerated elsewhere? Can you imagine what an US congressman uttering "f*$%ing United States of America" or "dirty ni*&er” would do to his political career?

meanwhile clamoring for the "good old days" when they were the one and only middleman between China and the "western" world.

That's exactly what I meant. Clamoring for a past that is not coming back. UK is a shadow of its former self and China doesn't need a middleman between it and any other country anymore. Collectively HK needs to move on. Leveraging its many advantages and strive to be a leader, a trend setter, rather than reminiscing former glory. I read the NYT article by Wong. It mentioned the commodity smugglers from the mainland. Guess what, smugglers went to HK because it was a desirable destination with desirable goods (I by no means support smuggling). If HK doesn't pull itself out of this stupor characterised by internal division and meaningless conflict, eventually it will become backwater and that's when the "societal problems" really will be deep.
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Tugger
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:02 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Do you really want two immature brats who couldn't even put themselves together long enough to be sworn in, let alone putting forward their point through debates and legislation, as they are elected to do, to actually sit in the representative chamber? Do you think similar behaviour would be tolerated elsewhere? Can you imagine what an US congressman uttering "f*$%ing United States of America" or "dirty ni*&er” would do to his political career?

In my mind that is to be left to the citizens to decide, not the state. When you allow the state to decide they use that power everywhere, normal citizens, politicians. companies, etc.

That power is always best placed in the hands of the people.

Most corrupt governments that pretend to be "open" or hold "fair elections" enforce their rule by disallowing many candidates from running, it is the most basic tool to continue corruption: Only allow those that agree with you (or that will accept your money/direction) to run for office. Why should the government be allowed that? Why not let the people decide who they prefer, if they wish to support such candidates? Would not people simply not vote for "immature brats" (as you imply they would not want such)?

Again why think the state should be allowed that power?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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einsteinboricua
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:05 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Can you imagine what an US congressman uttering "f*$%ing United States of America" or "dirty ni*&er” would do to his political career?

Propel him to the highest office in the nation. Where have you been for the past 3-4 years?
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zakuivcustom
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
In my mind that is to be left to the citizens to decide, not the state. When you allow the state to decide they use that power everywhere, normal citizens, politicians. companies, etc.


I agree with this sentiment. It's ultimately up to the people to decide whether such "extreme" idea are too "extreme" or not.

Plus, it's one thing to DQ the two legislators from Youth Inspiration, it's another when they block people like Leung Tin-Kei (who, by the way, was allow to stand in an election just a year earlier) from being on the ballot just b/c "the state" doesn't like his agenda (and in reality, it's more "perception of his agenda"). Tell me again how is that not trying to silent dissenting voices?

Cerecl wrote:
Can you imagine what an US congressman uttering "f*$%ing United States of America" or "dirty ni*&er” would do to his political career?


Nothing in US law would stop them from appearing on a ballot. Would they get (re)elected? I doubt it.

Oh, and where have you been in 1960s? Politicians like George Wallace (from Talibama) didn't even bother hiding the fact that they're fully racist.

Cerecl wrote:
That's exactly what I meant. Clamoring for a past that is not coming back. UK is a shadow of its former self and China doesn't need a middleman between it and any other country anymore. Collectively HK needs to move on. Leveraging its many advantages and strive to be a leader, a trend setter, rather than reminiscing former glory. I read the NYT article by Wong. It mentioned the commodity smugglers from the mainland. Guess what, smugglers went to HK because it was a desirable destination with desirable goods (I by no means support smuggling). If HK doesn't pull itself out of this stupor characterised by internal division and meaningless conflict, eventually it will become backwater and that's when the "societal problems" really will be deep.


For "smuggling" - it's because (mainland) Chinese are smart enough to not used stuff that are "Made In China". But ultimately, it's not exactly a problem that HK can solved alone anyway. Plus the "smuggling" problem is VERY similar to the complaints of over-tourism from people living in places like Venice or Barcelona - i.e. the money is nice, but it also create societal problems like overcrowding, daily goods becoming expensive, etc.

P.S. Just wondering, are you a HK-based a.nutter?
 
c933103
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:09 pm

wingman wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
wingman wrote:
Anyway, too bad Chinese forum members can’t read this thread

Why do you think they can’t read this? We have several Chinese members. I posted from China regularly on a.net.


I’ve always wondered at the mechanics of censorship on a site like this one. Do they erase the thread? Do they block A.net in totality until the thread falls off the main page? Or do they change Tiananmen to Times Square and pretend this is all about Imperialist Americans shooting up their own citizens in New York City? Whatever the case it’s a little taste of what’s to come when China rules half the internet. No thanks. I’d happily give up some lifestyle for my guaranteed freedom of thought and expression. Just imagine Goebbels running the Great Firewall with a 1B+ captive audience and funds beyond his imagination. It’s the scariest prospect of the 21st century.

For a small foreign site like Anet, since HTTPS security transfer protocol have been implemented, they will not be able to censor content on this website, unless and until this site become popular enough and relevant department in the Chinese government found this website and see enough "malicious" content like this thread on the website, then they will block people from accessing the entire website.
This is a placeholder.
 
c933103
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:14 pm

Cerecl wrote:
wingman wrote:
You seem to imply the same in your full post but I just don’t buy it. You’re right that Chinese people are smart, they’re amongst the smartest and hardest working in the world. But it does them a great disservice to believe that they would be incapable of open dissent and full freedom of expression and not be able to work, earn money and still love their country. In fact, it’s absurd. The US, all of Europe and a significant and very free and wealthy chunk of Asia prove that out.
As for Trump, the man is an utter embarrassment and stain on my nation’s history. I can say that freely, curse him here and on the streets, and still keep my job and love my country. It’s a shame Chinese people don’t have that choice. Maybe they will some day.


Your expression was a bit ambiguous so I am not entirely sure what you thought I implied. If you thought that I implied that prosperity and democracy are mutually exclusive, then I certainly did not. Most people just don't rate political freedom as that important an issue at this stage, which shouldn't be a surprise because most people, not just Chinese people, have little to no interest in politics. What people outside Chinese culture often don't appreciate enough is the strong desire for stability. An imperfect but still quite livable future with fairly high degree of certainty is often preferred over a potential fantastic but uncertain future at an individual level. Again, have an understanding of the Chinese History would probably better inform people how the future may unfold.

Is it just the political freedom that is a problem in China nowadays? If you check any news about people in China complaining about different things and then get clamped down by the government, barely any of them are inherently political yet Chinese government still exert full control on those matter and silence those that want to express their own voice.
Last edited by c933103 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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c933103
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:24 pm

Cerecl wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

Tell me, how is not letting an activist run for LegCo just b/c their ideal are deem "extreme" not "silencing" them? How is kicking people that were legitimately elected, by people's vote (and voice), out of LegCo just b/c they were more or less deem "not necessary" not denying representation?


I don't think the society has an obligation to tolerate all extreme views or let these views be represented. At an individual level, two of those kicked out the LegCo deliberately used derogatory terms to refer to Chinese people and China. If you despise CCP, fine, your freedom your view. But at least be an adult and man up to the fact that HK is now part of China and will remain so unless China completely collapses or disintegrates. Do you really want two immature brats who couldn't even put themselves together long enough to be sworn in, let alone putting forward their point through debates and legislation, as they are elected to do, to actually sit in the representative chamber? Do you think similar behaviour would be tolerated elsewhere? Can you imagine what an US congressman uttering "f*$%ing United States of America" or "dirty ni*&er” would do to his political career?

meanwhile clamoring for the "good old days" when they were the one and only middleman between China and the "western" world.

That's exactly what I meant. Clamoring for a past that is not coming back. UK is a shadow of its former self and China doesn't need a middleman between it and any other country anymore. Collectively HK needs to move on. Leveraging its many advantages and strive to be a leader, a trend setter, rather than reminiscing former glory. I read the NYT article by Wong. It mentioned the commodity smugglers from the mainland. Guess what, smugglers went to HK because it was a desirable destination with desirable goods (I by no means support smuggling). If HK doesn't pull itself out of this stupor characterised by internal division and meaningless conflict, eventually it will become backwater and that's when the "societal problems" really will be deep.

What is considered "extreme"? An ethnic Chinese people using derogatory term to refer to other Chinese people is widely recognized as an action not banned from the law of Hong Kong, not to mention they were referring to the country of People's Republic of China instead of people in it when they make such statement, and also not to mention there were far more than those two that were being kicked out of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong.
"at least be an adult and man up to the fact that HK is now part of China and will remain so unless China completely collapses or disintegrates" is as irrelevant as it can get to defense their expulsion from the legislative council as there aren't many other places that ban people from voicing opinion that are different from the established fact.
Leveraging its many advantages and strive to be a leader, a trend setter, rather than reminiscing former glory.

Those "advantages" you mentioned for Hong Kong were a product of its autonomy on local policies that gave it a different business environment to the environment in mainland China. That is not going to be what Hong Kong will be in the future and thus Hong Kong will no longer enjoy these advantages you mentioned.
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Cerecl
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:21 am

Tugger wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
In my mind that is to be left to the citizens to decide, not the state. When you allow the state to decide they use that power everywhere, normal citizens, politicians. companies, etc.
That power is always best placed in the hands of the people.
Tugg

In general I agree. But in this case national sovereignty was involved. I point to the relatively recent events in Catalonia as an example of popular view not triumphant when sovereignty is affected. If anything Chinese is even more sensitive on this issue than most.
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Cerecl
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:22 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
Can you imagine what an US congressman uttering "f*$%ing United States of America" or "dirty ni*&er” would do to his political career?

Propel him to the highest office in the nation. Where have you been for the past 3-4 years?

Huh? I have nothing but disdain for Trump but he has always dressed himself with nationalistic and patriotic image
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Cerecl
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:33 am

zakuivcustom wrote:


Cerecl wrote:
Can you imagine what an US congressman uttering "f*$%ing United States of America" or "dirty ni*&er” would do to his political career?

Nothing in US law would stop them from appearing on a ballot. Would they get (re)elected? I doubt it.
Oh, and where have you been in 1960s? Politicians like George Wallace (from Talibama) didn't even bother hiding the fact that they're fully racist.
P.S. Just wondering, are you a HK-based a.nutter?

I bet you $100 should a candidate utter these words in the US his/her name would disappear from any serious political party's candidate lists before his/next meal.
Do I really sound like I would be around in the 1960s?? :shock: My parents were in kindergarten/primary school then. In any event, what was acceptable in 1960s often is no longer so now.
I am a Chinese Aussie. HK has a special place in my heart for a number of reasons, not least because it was my first ever overseas destination. It was still a British colony then :old:
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Cerecl
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:58 am

c933103 wrote:
What is considered "extreme"? An ethnic Chinese people using derogatory term to refer to other Chinese people is widely recognized as an action not banned from the law of Hong Kong, not to mention they were referring to the country of People's Republic of China instead of people in it when they make such statement, and also not to mention there were far more than those two that were being kicked out of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong.

Firstly you need to be aware of what was said and displayed. Secondly Hong Kong is now part of PRC. Pretty sure the Basic Law requires representative to recognise that. Finally they lost their seats after losing a legal battle. Are you suggesting that HK courts are biased?

c933103 wrote:
"at least be an adult and man up to the fact that HK is now part of China and will remain so unless China completely collapses or disintegrates" is as irrelevant as it can get to defense their expulsion from the legislative council as there aren't many other places that ban people from voicing opinion that are different from the established fact.

It matters because they were legislative council representatives and were being sworn in therefore conducting official business. If you can't see how they should be subjected to a different standard when it comes to sovereignty issues compared a private citizen expressing their personal opinion in private I can't help you.

c933103 wrote:
Those "advantages" you mentioned for Hong Kong were a product of its autonomy on local policies that gave it a different business environment to the environment in mainland China. That is not going to be what Hong Kong will be in the future and thus Hong Kong will no longer enjoy these advantages you mentioned.

Huh? If you are referring to the 50 year rule there is nothing that says in 2047 everything will change instead of simply continuing the status quo.
People seem to think the PRC government can't wait to turn HK like any other mainland city. The truth is they don't. They have already got Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and a number of others trying to become first-line cities. They wanted HK to be a model for Taiwan and an example of how Chinese can maintain and develop HK as a world class city just like the Brits. Obviously the reality is they got more than they bargained for.
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aviationaware
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:06 am

Unfortunately they didn't go very far.
I hope one day there will be a true democratic uprising in China that succeeds. Maybe we are witnessing the seed of it in Hong Kong these days?
Last edited by aviationaware on Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cerecl
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Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:06 am

c933103 wrote:
Is it just the political freedom that is a problem in China nowadays? If you check any news about people in China complaining about different things and then get clamped down by the government, barely any of them are inherently political yet Chinese government still exert full control on those matter and silence those that want to express their own voice.

There have been a number of localised demonstration which eventually achieved their goals. Yes there were police and arrests and so on, but this is not unusual in mass protests. Obviously there is a long way to go in China for full political freedom and freedom of expression, but one can see progress everywhere if one chooses to look for it.
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N14AZ
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:47 am

aviationaware wrote:
Unfortunately they didn't go very far.
I hope one day there will be a true democratic uprising in China that succeeds. Maybe we are witnessing the seed of it in Hong Kong these days?

That would be the end of the PR China as we know it. It wouldn’t take long and several provinces would try to separate, kind of Tibexit, HKexit and so on..

We Westerners always think democracy is the ultimative way to run a country. I am not trying to say I would prefer living in PR of China under the Communistic Party. I am simply saying there are other models and one doesn’t have to see them as something evil (see also another post above mentioning the long history of China with a central government).
 
aviationaware
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Re: June 4th, 1989: Tiananmen Square

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:04 am

N14AZ wrote:
That would be the end of the PR China as we know it. It wouldn’t take long and several provinces would try to separate, kind of Tibexit, HKexit and so on..


Oh, no.. that would be positively heartbreaking I guess :cheeky:

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