frmrCapCadet
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I don't care. I'll be 60 in 3 weeks and don't have any children so I'll be dead and gone before anything major happens.


Pffff, can you have a more antisocial response?


I became pessimistic on this issue in the mid 1990s. I think we could have averted the very bad case scenario if we had, world wide, taken action at that time. There was no political will to do so. If we take action now I think we could avert the catastrophic scenario. There seems to be no political will or ability to do so. Diamond has discussed the collapse of civilizations and has useful things to say. My view is that civilizations collapse because while everyone knows what needs to be done, the various sectors are all unwilling to take the short term loss to themselves for long term gain for everyone. It is a political collapse more than a technology/information collapse. In other words, our political systems around the world evolved to bring us to where we are, they cannot take us to where we need to be.

I will vote for whoever is proposing the best solutions, I support whatever taxes we need to fund those solutions, I am willing to accept whatever short term changes or sacrifices I should make to avoid catastrophe. My comfort, at 80 I will die before the the collapse (I think!)
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Francoflier
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:36 pm

The first serious consequences of climate change can already be seen and felt: the increased frequency and severity of extreme weather such as hurricanes and typhoons, floods, droughts, heatwaves, cold snaps and winter storms, etc.

Those are already costing the affected nations billions. As their effects worsen, the consequences to mankind will worsen. The price of food will likely be affected and, added to the exponential population rise, will start hurting poorer nations and groups in the not too distant future.

Then the rise of water levels will exert an increasing pressure on coastal cities and communities, where a majority of the population lives.

It is predicted that parts of Southeast Asia will become so hot in the next few decades that they will be literally uninhabitable (as in: unsurvivable).

So all in all, I'd say massive migration flows and their associated tensions, increased trade tensions, increased infrastructure and housing costs. Oh, and wars.
The bill will be paid by everyone of us, whether we like it or not, whether we believe in it or not, and whether we think we are sheltered from it or not.
In fact, we have already started to pay but, just like the proverbial frog in the slow heating kettle, many haven't seemed to realize it yet...

...The power of human and corporate greed.
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Magog
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:21 pm

For the record, global warming will not result in an increased frequency of hurricanes.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:39 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I thought according to Gore we were supposed to have vaporized already.


Gore would have said anything to make a few more bucks off of climate change. He doesn't actually care about climate change. All he cares about is the millions and millions of dollars he's made talking about it.


When I see people, Al Gore to that bar tending idiot from NYC, actually change their behaviors I’ll believe that THEY believe in climate change. Right now, it is just another hammer for their political agenda.

Dumb. That's like waiting for a waitress in LAS to switch to a low flow toilet in her rental in order to discuss water policy in the Colorado River basin. Just say you don't care, and you don't care to learn, and we'll all believe you and be refreshed with your honesty.

KentB27 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
When I see people, Al Gore to that bar tending idiot from NYC, actually change their behaviors I’ll believe that THEY believe in climate change. Right now, it is just another hammer for their political agenda.


Exactly. Politicians love to talk about issues like climate change, but what are they actually doing to combat climate change in their daily lives? Are they really practicing what they preach? I seriously doubt that most of them are. In "An Inconvenient Truth" I distinctly remember Al Gore driving around in his V8 powered Cadillac Seville that probably got about 15 mpg. I realize that it's an old film these days, but if climate change is so alarming to him then he shouldn't be driving a gas guzzling vehicle like that. How much pollution do you think the private jets he flew around in to talk about climate change all over the world caused?

What Gore does, or does not do, is completely immaterial to climate change. Climate, as they say, doesn't give a toss about your feelings. If politicians practiced what they preached, we wouldn't have politicians.. The fact the right's only recourse these days with respect to climate change is to curtail and limit the study (hey NRA!) thereof--while they're all simultaneously reinforcing the seawalls of their homes, golf courses, and naval bases--should tell you exactly what is happening.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Francoflier
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:41 pm

Probably not, indeed. But it will very likely result in a higher frequency of the stronger storms, leading to increased impact when they make landfall.

The rise of sea levels will make the associated higher storm surges much more damaging and coastal cities much more vulnerable to severe or catastrophic flooding.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Redd
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:30 pm

DL717 wrote:

That said, if someone built their house on the sand, that’s their stupid.



Islands are disappearing. Recently, eight in Micronesia. Five in the Solomon Islands. One off the coast of Hokkaido, Japan. These things are happening now, and people are being displaced.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:46 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
KentB27 wrote:

Gore would have said anything to make a few more bucks off of climate change. He doesn't actually care about climate change. All he cares about is the millions and millions of dollars he's made talking about it.


When I see people, Al Gore to that bar tending idiot from NYC, actually change their behaviors I’ll believe that THEY believe in climate change. Right now, it is just another hammer for their political agenda.

Dumb. That's like waiting for a waitress in LAS to switch to a low flow toilet in her rental in order to discuss water policy in the Colorado River basin. Just say you don't care, and you don't care to learn, and we'll all believe you and be refreshed with your honesty.

KentB27 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
When I see people, Al Gore to that bar tending idiot from NYC, actually change their behaviors I’ll believe that THEY believe in climate change. Right now, it is just another hammer for their political agenda.


Exactly. Politicians love to talk about issues like climate change, but what are they actually doing to combat climate change in their daily lives? Are they really practicing what they preach? I seriously doubt that most of them are. In "An Inconvenient Truth" I distinctly remember Al Gore driving around in his V8 powered Cadillac Seville that probably got about 15 mpg. I realize that it's an old film these days, but if climate change is so alarming to him then he shouldn't be driving a gas guzzling vehicle like that. How much pollution do you think the private jets he flew around in to talk about climate change all over the world caused?

What Gore does, or does not do, is completely immaterial to climate change. Climate, as they say, doesn't give a toss about your feelings. If politicians practiced what they preached, we wouldn't have politicians.. The fact the right's only recourse these days with respect to climate change is to curtail and limit the study (hey NRA!) thereof--while they're all simultaneously reinforcing the seawalls of their homes, golf courses, and naval bases--should tell you exactly what is happening.


Leadership matters, they want to lead and change behavior, it starts with them. As i said, humans are not changing and crying “wolf” won’t help.

Dumb would be behaving as they WANT us to while they create more GHG. That’s being a sucker subsidizing profligate rich bar stewards. But apparently being a sucker is what the Left wants of us in your view
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

When I see people, Al Gore to that bar tending idiot from NYC, actually change their behaviors I’ll believe that THEY believe in climate change. Right now, it is just another hammer for their political agenda.

Dumb. That's like waiting for a waitress in LAS to switch to a low flow toilet in her rental in order to discuss water policy in the Colorado River basin. Just say you don't care, and you don't care to learn, and we'll all believe you and be refreshed with your honesty.

KentB27 wrote:

Exactly. Politicians love to talk about issues like climate change, but what are they actually doing to combat climate change in their daily lives? Are they really practicing what they preach? I seriously doubt that most of them are. In "An Inconvenient Truth" I distinctly remember Al Gore driving around in his V8 powered Cadillac Seville that probably got about 15 mpg. I realize that it's an old film these days, but if climate change is so alarming to him then he shouldn't be driving a gas guzzling vehicle like that. How much pollution do you think the private jets he flew around in to talk about climate change all over the world caused?

What Gore does, or does not do, is completely immaterial to climate change. Climate, as they say, doesn't give a toss about your feelings. If politicians practiced what they preached, we wouldn't have politicians.. The fact the right's only recourse these days with respect to climate change is to curtail and limit the study (hey NRA!) thereof--while they're all simultaneously reinforcing the seawalls of their homes, golf courses, and naval bases--should tell you exactly what is happening.


Leadership matters, they want to lead and change behavior, it starts with them. As i said, humans are not changing and crying “wolf” won’t help.

Since when? You've got fiscally conservative republicans blowing the biggest hole in the deficit in history, lead by a guy venerated by evangelicals, who raw dogs porn stars while his adulterous pregnant wife is at home. Remind me when does this "leadership" kick in, or even matter? And what relevance does his or her personal choices have on decisions that are made for the country? If someone, say a President, can't keep his expenses under control *cough* but manages to reduce the deficit--obviously completely hypothetical, wouldn't that be a good thing?
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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janders
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:09 pm

Not worried about it.

And definitely ignore all the doom and gloom hysteria especially out of Europe.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:10 pm

I was thinking of the Climate Change Mafia needing to lead, but as you brought this up, none of our political leaders, of any party, are remotely capable of “leadership” and goes to my continuing point—don’t give them power to much of anything other than readily agreed upon public needs. Not one of them for years would I trust with my broken lawnmower. It’s a damned shame we have to shovel hard earned income to the clown show in Washington or in the state capitals. My town hall meeting is THE highest level of government I can monitor. Works well, mostly. Roads are good, the police keep the local idiots in check and the ambulance, fire arrive, if called, local schools are okay.


gf
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:48 am

Francoflier wrote:
Probably not, indeed. But it will very likely result in a higher frequency of the stronger storms, leading to increased impact when they make landfall.

The rise of sea levels will make the associated higher storm surges much more damaging and coastal cities much more vulnerable to severe or catastrophic flooding.


Forget it - some people just can’t science. One unlikable or hypocritical personality/celebrity involved, and critical thinking goes out the window. Bad messengers do not change reality - and industry fueled lobbying doesn’t make it better. If people think migration and geopolitics are complicated now, just wait till wide swaths of ‘shithole countries’ are more arid with poor crop yields.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:55 am

Thomas Malthus or Paul Ehrlich, is that you?

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:08 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Probably not, indeed. But it will very likely result in a higher frequency of the stronger storms, leading to increased impact when they make landfall.

The rise of sea levels will make the associated higher storm surges much more damaging and coastal cities much more vulnerable to severe or catastrophic flooding.


Forget it - some people just can’t science. One unlikable or hypocritical personality/celebrity involved, and critical thinking goes out the window. Bad messengers do not change reality - and industry fueled lobbying doesn’t make it better. If people think migration and geopolitics are complicated now, just wait till wide swaths of ‘shithole countries’ are more arid with poor crop yields.



Didn’t know “science” is a verb, my I learned something today.

It’s not the personalities involved, unlikeable, hypocritical, blue haired, it’s that none of the proposed Chicken Little solutions are remotely acceptable to voters and, hence, the politicians. It’s all pain and no perceived gain. And the pain is no and defined, the gain is generations in the future, uncertain and undefined. I’m convinced it’s happening but we’ll adapt as we always have, but realistic on the way forward..

For those bad mouthing those who are less dramatic as being funded by industry; remember everyone of those “scientific experts” are funded by grants from governments and by politicians who have an agenda every bit as powerful as industries. The scientists need the grants the pols need the studies to continue and to expand their grip on power.

GF
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Didn’t know “science” is a verb, my I learned something today.

For those bad mouthing those who are less dramatic as being funded by industry; remember everyone of those “scientific experts” are funded by grants from governments and by politicians who have an agenda every bit as powerful as industries. The scientists need the grants the pols need the studies to continue and to expand their grip on power.

GF


Just an expression my biotech fiancee uses.

I didn't say anything about less dramatic - after all there is out and out denial of everything, from flat earth nonsense to vaccinations to climate change. That's obviously a massive issue with critical thinking and education. But as for grants - that is not the end-all be-all of science. Science is a continuum of trial-and-error, failure, discovery, revision, etc. While some alarmist reports may serve the agenda you speak of, that is not the broadstroke by which science operates. There were reports on atmospheric changes from CO2 emissions in the 1890s, and in other fields, it's easy to demonstrate no such political agendas are necessary - revelations about atomic structure and neutron behavior were made in several corners of the world well before there was any military potential to exploit such knowledge.

A friend of mine is now a research fellow at Univ. of Arizona Tucson and found his PhD topic completely by accident - not because it was suggested by his university or any politician's agenda. He was studying the ecology of reefs in the South Pacific and found an important relationship between Polynesian fishing methods and health of fish stocks. Believe me those were not the results French Polynesia authorities were hoping for.
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777Jet
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:42 am

johns624 wrote:
I don't care. I'll be 60 in 3 weeks and don't have any children so I'll be dead and gone before anything major happens.


I like your honesty.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Magog
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:20 pm

Nuclear power, when we consider deaths per terawatt hour (TWh), is by far the safest form of energy production. It is even safer than wind and solar, mainly from mining the elements needed in their construction, but also in their installation and operation.

Nuclear power is baseload energy. Renewable energy is not baseload.

And yet most climate change advocates oppose nuclear power. This is one reason why I am ver pessimistic of a near-term solution.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:26 pm

I've never understood opposition to nuclear power. It's the future.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:33 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I've never understood opposition to nuclear power. It's the future.


I agree it's the future but is nuclear waste still a problem? In the U.S. there is no permanent storage space for the spent nuclear rods. I would push forward if the U.S. figured out what to do with it.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:32 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I've never understood opposition to nuclear power. It's the future.


I agree it's the future but is nuclear waste still a problem? In the U.S. there is no permanent storage space for the spent nuclear rods. I would push forward if the U.S. figured out what to do with it.


Certainly a problem.

Most spent fuel rods just end up sitting at the bottom of the reactor pool where they were used. Mainly because we don't have a plan to put them anywhere. It's a political and security issue. Tough politics wise because no one wants to take ownership of where to put the waste. Difficult transporting the spent rods. Potential incidents along the route for instance. Security issue if it falls into the wrong hands.

To be honest, the best solution for the rods might be to just keep them at the bottom of the reactor pool.
 
alfa164
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:02 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I became pessimistic on this issue in the mid 1990s. I think we could have averted the very bad case scenario if we had, world wide, taken action at that time. There was no political will to do so. If we take action now I think we could avert the catastrophic scenario. There seems to be no political will or ability to do so. Diamond has discussed the collapse of civilizations and has useful things to say. My view is that civilizations collapse because while everyone knows what needs to be done, the various sectors are all unwilling to take the short term loss to themselves for long term gain for everyone. It is a political collapse more than a technology/information collapse. In other words, our political systems around the world evolved to bring us to where we are, they cannot take us to where we need to be.


:checkmark: This, in a nutshell, is the crux of the issue. Politicians lack the will to act because they don't want to offend their corporate donors, so they either deny the facts, or claim the facts don't exist. . Voters - some voters, at least - are reluctant to pitch-in a penny to solve a problem they believe they will outlive - or a problem they believe somebody else will solve later.

In the meantime, the clock continues tocking - for future generations, if not for us.

.
Magog wrote:
For the record, global warming will not result in an increased frequency of hurricanes.


So... besides being a red-meat-throwing right-wing provocateur cum liberal Democrat... you are now an expert on climate science? Can you cite any evidence to support your position?.
.
MaverickM11 wrote:
What Gore does, or does not do, is completely immaterial to climate change. Climate, as they say, doesn't give a toss about your feelings. If politicians practiced what they preached, we wouldn't have politicians.. The fact the right's only recourse these days with respect to climate change is to curtail and limit the study (hey NRA!) thereof--while they're all simultaneously reinforcing the seawalls of their homes, golf courses, and naval bases--should tell you exactly what is happening.


:checkmark: 1) Denying the facts, and 2) blaming the messenger(s) are the typical tactics of scoundrels. And politicians in the pockets of corporate special interests.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Spar
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:34 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
To be honest, the best solution for the rods might be to just keep them at the bottom of the reactor pool.

You mean keep them in cooling tanks at each reactor site. I think that's the worst alternative, these rods and the related products are going to have to be kept isolated from human contact for thousands of years. Storing this material in dispersed locations is nonsensical.

It is tragic that a few people in Nevada have fallen for paranoid hyperbole and rallied against the Yucca Mountain site, as if that site would ever have any effect of their lives. It is disgraceful that these few people can have an effect on what is and should be national policy.

There are many reasons why keeping the spent fuel rods in hundreds of disbursed locations is a bad idea and there is not a single logical reason they should not be buried deep underground below any water table in what will become a Subduction zone; and that is what the Yucca Mountain site provides.
 
alfa164
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:45 pm

Francoflier wrote:
The first serious consequences of climate change can already be seen and felt: the increased frequency and severity of extreme weather such as hurricanes and typhoons, floods, droughts, heatwaves, cold snaps and winter storms, etc. Those are already costing the affected nations billions. As their effects worsen, the consequences to mankind will worsen. The price of food will likely be affected and, added to the exponential population rise, will start hurting poorer nations and groups in the not too distant future.


But... but... our pompous Secretary of State says that is a good thing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEf-pmwFfLs
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:56 pm

alfa164 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I became pessimistic on this issue in the mid 1990s. I think we could have averted the very bad case scenario if we had, world wide, taken action at that time. There was no political will to do so. If we take action now I think we could avert the catastrophic scenario. There seems to be no political will or ability to do so. Diamond has discussed the collapse of civilizations and has useful things to say. My view is that civilizations collapse because while everyone knows what needs to be done, the various sectors are all unwilling to take the short term loss to themselves for long term gain for everyone. It is a political collapse more than a technology/information collapse. In other words, our political systems around the world evolved to bring us to where we are, they cannot take us to where we need to be.


:checkmark: This, in a nutshell, is the crux of the issue. Politicians lack the will to act because they don't want to offend their corporate donors, so they either deny the facts, or claim the facts don't exist. . Voters - some voters, at least - are reluctant to pitch-in a penny to solve a problem they believe they will outlive - or a problem they believe somebody else will solve later.

In the meantime, the clock continues tocking - for future generations, if not for us.

.
Magog wrote:
For the record, global warming will not result in an increased frequency of hurricanes.


So... besides being a red-meat-throwing right-wing provocateur cum liberal Democrat... you are now an expert on climate science? Can you cite any evidence to support your position?.
.
MaverickM11 wrote:
What Gore does, or does not do, is completely immaterial to climate change. Climate, as they say, doesn't give a toss about your feelings. If politicians practiced what they preached, we wouldn't have politicians.. The fact the right's only recourse these days with respect to climate change is to curtail and limit the study (hey NRA!) thereof--while they're all simultaneously reinforcing the seawalls of their homes, golf courses, and naval bases--should tell you exactly what is happening.


:checkmark: 1) Denying the facts, and 2) blaming the messenger(s) are the typical tactics of scoundrels. And politicians in the pockets of corporate special interests.


The hell with the donors, they don’t want to offend the voters who aren’t about to give up advanced, cheap lifestyles so Chinese, Indian, Third World denizens can go on polluting. That dynamic has been obvious since the Kyoto Agreement.

GF
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:10 pm

Spar wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
To be honest, the best solution for the rods might be to just keep them at the bottom of the reactor pool.

You mean keep them in cooling tanks at each reactor site. I think that's the worst alternative, these rods and the related products are going to have to be kept isolated from human contact for thousands of years. Storing this material in dispersed locations is nonsensical.

It is tragic that a few people in Nevada have fallen for paranoid hyperbole and rallied against the Yucca Mountain site, as if that site would ever have any effect of their lives. It is disgraceful that these few people can have an effect on what is and should be national policy.

There are many reasons why keeping the spent fuel rods in hundreds of disbursed locations is a bad idea and there is not a single logical reason they should not be buried deep underground below any water table in what will become a Subduction zone; and that is what the Yucca Mountain site provides.


Certainly right. I'm not disagreeing with that or saying the yucca site is a poor choice. It's the right choice imo. And there are a couple of other possible choices too.

My original point stands, the politics behind is difficult to avoid and you've got to transport the materials there which is another hurdle.
 
alfa164
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Politicians lack the will to act because they don't want to offend their corporate donors, so they either deny the facts, or claim the facts don't exist. . Voters - some voters, at least - are reluctant to pitch-in a penny to solve a problem they believe they will outlive - or a problem they believe somebody else will solve later.

In the meantime, the clock continues tocking - for future generations, if not for us.


The hell with the donors, they don’t want to offend the voters who aren’t about to give up advanced, cheap lifestyles so Chinese, Indian, Third World denizens can go on polluting. That dynamic has been obvious since the Kyoto Agreement.


Those voters are prey to being bamboozled by the lies and misrepresentations of the politicians themselves - which are fueled by the lies, misrepresentations, and "talking points" conveniently provided by the embattled, pollution-causing industries.

If the politicians who prefer to bury their collective heads in the sand would be honest, the voters would respond differently. Unfortunately, it is a viscous circle - and it is the earth, and our future generations, who suffer.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I became pessimistic on this issue in the mid 1990s. I think we could have averted the very bad case scenario if we had, world wide, taken action at that time. There was no political will to do so. If we take action now I think we could avert the catastrophic scenario. There seems to be no political will or ability to do so. Diamond has discussed the collapse of civilizations and has useful things to say. My view is that civilizations collapse because while everyone knows what needs to be done, the various sectors are all unwilling to take the short term loss to themselves for long term gain for everyone. It is a political collapse more than a technology/information collapse. In other words, our political systems around the world evolved to bring us to where we are, they cannot take us to where we need to be.


:checkmark: This, in a nutshell, is the crux of the issue. Politicians lack the will to act because they don't want to offend their corporate donors, so they either deny the facts, or claim the facts don't exist. . Voters - some voters, at least - are reluctant to pitch-in a penny to solve a problem they believe they will outlive - or a problem they believe somebody else will solve later.

In the meantime, the clock continues tocking - for future generations, if not for us.

.
Magog wrote:
For the record, global warming will not result in an increased frequency of hurricanes.


So... besides being a red-meat-throwing right-wing provocateur cum liberal Democrat... you are now an expert on climate science? Can you cite any evidence to support your position?.
.
MaverickM11 wrote:
What Gore does, or does not do, is completely immaterial to climate change. Climate, as they say, doesn't give a toss about your feelings. If politicians practiced what they preached, we wouldn't have politicians.. The fact the right's only recourse these days with respect to climate change is to curtail and limit the study (hey NRA!) thereof--while they're all simultaneously reinforcing the seawalls of their homes, golf courses, and naval bases--should tell you exactly what is happening.


:checkmark: 1) Denying the facts, and 2) blaming the messenger(s) are the typical tactics of scoundrels. And politicians in the pockets of corporate special interests.


The hell with the donors, they don’t want to offend the voters who aren’t about to give up advanced, cheap lifestyles so Chinese, Indian, Third World denizens can go on polluting. That dynamic has been obvious since the Kyoto Agreement.

GF

Who has thrown the biggest tantrum on heightened fuel efficiency standards for cars? Is it a) the voters or b) republicans or c) car makers or d) the fossil fuel industry?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3147
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:26 pm

Oh, I know, all of the above, answer E. CAFE is ridiculous as its primary effect has been to increase annual miles driven—longer commutes, more exurban development, and cheaper transportation by the reduction in cost. Voters love their pickups and SUVs, car makers love the profits from big vehicles, Republicans love the votes from suburban voters driving those high profit cars and oil industry loves selling product. If voters truly were concerned, high mileage sedans and EVs would be popular and profitable. Hint: they’re not selling. I see guys in huge $60,000 pickups buying bird seed. My wife is all about recycling and science until you suggest taking her Ford Explorer away. At 17mpg, it ain’t happening, either.

Don’t buy the BS money buys votes; if it did we’d be complaining about the second President Clinton.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3147
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:27 pm

alfa164 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Politicians lack the will to act because they don't want to offend their corporate donors, so they either deny the facts, or claim the facts don't exist. . Voters - some voters, at least - are reluctant to pitch-in a penny to solve a problem they believe they will outlive - or a problem they believe somebody else will solve later.

In the meantime, the clock continues tocking - for future generations, if not for us.


The hell with the donors, they don’t want to offend the voters who aren’t about to give up advanced, cheap lifestyles so Chinese, Indian, Third World denizens can go on polluting. That dynamic has been obvious since the Kyoto Agreement.


Those voters are prey to being bamboozled by the lies and misrepresentations of the politicians themselves - which are fueled by the lies, misrepresentations, and "talking points" conveniently provided by the embattled, pollution-causing industries.

If the politicians who prefer to bury their collective heads in the sand would be honest, the voters would respond differently. Unfortunately, it is a viscous circle - and it is the earth, and our future generations, who suffer.


Politicians are cowards, they want their careers to go on, so bucking voters ain’t gonna hack it. Pols read the polls, jump on the bandwagon where it goes.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 96
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:01 pm

I was in Colorado and saw devastation caused by the pine beetle which is directly related to warming in winters out West and in the Rockies. It was awful to see hillsides of devastation. CO will start to resemble New Mexico in the future and suffer from more extreme wildfires due to climate change.

We need to limit how many children we have in the developed world. Many European countries are doing amazing with limiting how many kids they have, but in the U.S. we should not be having more than one kid. We also need to ban the use of inefficient vehicles and limit car ownership while expanding green energy transportation options.

Climate change is rapidly intensifying and we need to make drastic changes to save our species and life on Earth.

The past is the past and capitalism had its place in helping humans get to where we are now, but it is an outdated system for the needs of today’s world and we need to develop new systems to structure society. Capitalism does not benefit enough people to be called a success. We need a system that benefits more people around the world Instead of just a few, and puts the environment first. Our way we measure success needs to change if we want to help more people and the environment.
 
johns624
Posts: 2107
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:

We need to limit how many children we have in the developed world. Many European countries are doing amazing with limiting how many kids they have, but in the U.S. we should not be having more than one kid. We also need to ban the use of inefficient vehicles and limit car ownership while expanding green energy transportation options.
The past is the past and capitalism had its place in helping humans get to where we are now, but it is an outdated system for the needs of today’s world and we need to develop new systems to structure society. Capitalism does not benefit enough people to be called a success. We need a system that benefits more people around the world Instead of just a few, and puts the environment first. Our way we measure success needs to change if we want to help more people and the environment.

1. If you want to limit populations, wouldn't it be better to limit them in countries that can't support them?
2. What "system" do you suggest?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3147
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:25 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
I was in Colorado and saw devastation caused by the pine beetle which is directly related to warming in winters out West and in the Rockies. It was awful to see hillsides of devastation. CO will start to resemble New Mexico in the future and suffer from more extreme wildfires due to climate change.

We need to limit how many children we have in the developed world. Many European countries are doing amazing with limiting how many kids they have, but in the U.S. we should not be having more than one kid. We also need to ban the use of inefficient vehicles and limit car ownership while expanding green energy transportation options.

Climate change is rapidly intensifying and we need to make drastic changes to save our species and life on Earth.

The past is the past and capitalism had its place in helping humans get to where we are now, but it is an outdated system for the needs of today’s world and we need to develop new systems to structure society. Capitalism does not benefit enough people to be called a success. We need a system that benefits more people around the world Instead of just a few, and puts the environment first. Our way we measure success needs to change if we want to help more people and the environment.


Utter tosh. It’s human minds that will address climate change, if it is a problem. Limiting the number limits the number of brains. Humanity will fix this problem like it has all the ones in the past.

Thomas Malthus lives in modern minds, who’d think it.
 
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trpmb6
Posts: 2550
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:55 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
I was in Colorado and saw devastation caused by the pine beetle which is directly related to warming in winters out West and in the Rockies. It was awful to see hillsides of devastation. CO will start to resemble New Mexico in the future and suffer from more extreme wildfires due to climate change.

We need to limit how many children we have in the developed world. Many European countries are doing amazing with limiting how many kids they have, but in the U.S. we should not be having more than one kid. We also need to ban the use of inefficient vehicles and limit car ownership while expanding green energy transportation options.

Climate change is rapidly intensifying and we need to make drastic changes to save our species and life on Earth.

The past is the past and capitalism had its place in helping humans get to where we are now, but it is an outdated system for the needs of today’s world and we need to develop new systems to structure society. Capitalism does not benefit enough people to be called a success. We need a system that benefits more people around the world Instead of just a few, and puts the environment first. Our way we measure success needs to change if we want to help more people and the environment.


Well you're ignoring the poor forest management policies implemented in the 80s and 90s that resulted in the reduction of natural wildfires that were necessary to the natural balance of the ecosystem of the rockies, leading to the rise of the pine beetle infestation.

But I'll ignore that. Lets move on to your limit on children. I'm guessing you weren't aware that, without immigration, the USA would have a declining and aging population. Similar, in fact, to Japan and many other countries. We NEED immigration to maintain our current social nets, without it, we would begin to take in less and less revenue to pay for the social systems previous generations desired.

Also, what European country(ies) place(s) limits on the number of children they can have? What evidence do you have that "Climate change is rapidly intensifying." The only thing intensifying for me this year is this unusually cold summer I'm having due to the el nino pattern we are in. Back in 2012 I had full grown tomatoes by now. my plants aren't even taller than one foot this year.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:25 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
What evidence do you have that "Climate change is rapidly intensifying." The only thing intensifying for me this year is this unusually cold summer I'm having due to the el nino pattern we are in. Back in 2012 I had full grown tomatoes by now. my plants aren't even taller than one foot this year.


Here we go...

'It's cold where I live, so climate change can't be real'.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:49 pm

Francoflier wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
What evidence do you have that "Climate change is rapidly intensifying." The only thing intensifying for me this year is this unusually cold summer I'm having due to the el nino pattern we are in. Back in 2012 I had full grown tomatoes by now. my plants aren't even taller than one foot this year.


Here we go...

'It's cold where I live, so climate change can't be real'.


You know it!

It's like saying the lack of hurricanes in the previous 10 years was due to climate change and that the sudden burst of hurricanes we had last year is due to climate change.

Or that the drought of tornadoes we experienced between 2012 and 2018 was because of climate change, but the high amount of tornadoes we experienced so far in 2019 is due to climate change.

When in reality it's all due to cyclical weather patterns that have somehow taken a backseat.

Also, you'll notice you were putting words in my mouth. I never said climate change can't be real. In fact, I noted that my current situation is wholly due to the current El Nino pattern we are in. so #golfclap

Literally:
this unusually cold summer I'm having due to the el nino pattern we are in
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:57 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I never said climate change can't be real


What do you say then? Do you believe in science or not? Do you believe the lobbyist with the same tactic they used with cigarettes in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I never said climate change can't be real


What do you say then? Do you believe in science or not? Do you believe the lobbyist with the same tactic they used with cigarettes in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's?


I firmly believe the evidence that humans are a primary driver in the change of Earth's climate to be inconclusive. There are simply too many variables to know for certain.

Edit to add: I believe the study of climate change to often be a cart before the horse type of analogy. Scientists with a hypothesis seeking a means to confirm their hypothesis without properly controlling for all the remaining variables.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:14 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I never said climate change can't be real


What do you say then? Do you believe in science or not? Do you believe the lobbyist with the same tactic they used with cigarettes in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's?


I firmly believe the evidence that humans are a primary driver in the change of Earth's climate to be inconclusive. There are simply too many variables to know for certain.

Edit to add: I believe the study of climate change to often be a cart before the horse type of analogy. Scientists with a hypothesis seeking a means to confirm their hypothesis without properly controlling for all the remaining variables.


Check, a science denier.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:25 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I've never understood opposition to nuclear power. It's the future.


Thorium reactors?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Brazil is an absolute menace to all of us - senseless avarice and wanton antipathy to nature.

Imazon said that satellite imagery show the region lost 2169 square kilometres (216,900 hectares) of forest in the most recent August-through-April period.

That's a 20 per cent jump from the 1807 square kilometres lost over the same nine-month period the previous year.

Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro and his environment minister have questioned the reality of climate change and spoken in favour of expanding mining and industrial farming, including in Brazil's protected areas. Many see the comments are permission for farmers and loggers to expand into wilderness areas.


https://www.smh.com.au/world/south-amer ... sOsx3oQYPM
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17298
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:34 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, I know, all of the above, answer E. CAFE is ridiculous as its primary effect has been to increase annual miles driven—longer commutes, more exurban development, and cheaper transportation by the reduction in cost. Voters love their pickups and SUVs, car makers love the profits from big vehicles, Republicans love the votes from suburban voters driving those high profit cars and oil industry loves selling product. If voters truly were concerned, high mileage sedans and EVs would be popular and profitable. Hint: they’re not selling. I see guys in huge $60,000 pickups buying bird seed. My wife is all about recycling and science until you suggest taking her Ford Explorer away. At 17mpg, it ain’t happening, either.

Don’t buy the BS money buys votes; if it did we’d be complaining about the second President Clinton.

GF

That's a lot of nonsense. Voters strongly support fuel efficiency standards and car companies are begging the Trump administration to not lower the standards, so that leaves republicans and the fossil fuel industry as the sole parties interested in reducing fuel standards. If a President can go against voters and industry's wishes on fuel efficiency, why would it be such a stretch to do the same, but in the same interests of those parties, ie more efficient standards?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Magog
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:48 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, I know, all of the above, answer E. CAFE is ridiculous as its primary effect has been to increase annual miles driven—longer commutes, more exurban development, and cheaper transportation by the reduction in cost. Voters love their pickups and SUVs, car makers love the profits from big vehicles, Republicans love the votes from suburban voters driving those high profit cars and oil industry loves selling product. If voters truly were concerned, high mileage sedans and EVs would be popular and profitable. Hint: they’re not selling. I see guys in huge $60,000 pickups buying bird seed. My wife is all about recycling and science until you suggest taking her Ford Explorer away. At 17mpg, it ain’t happening, either.

Don’t buy the BS money buys votes; if it did we’d be complaining about the second President Clinton.

GF

That's a lot of nonsense. Voters strongly support fuel efficiency standards and car companies are begging the Trump administration to not lower the standards, so that leaves republicans and the fossil fuel industry as the sole parties interested in reducing fuel standards. If a President can go against voters and industry's wishes on fuel efficiency, why would it be such a stretch to do the same, but in the same interests of those parties, ie more efficient standards?

Trump ran on increasing the use of coal. And he won. I can’t really blame him if he disagrees with your characterization of the electorate.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17298
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:06 pm

Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, I know, all of the above, answer E. CAFE is ridiculous as its primary effect has been to increase annual miles driven—longer commutes, more exurban development, and cheaper transportation by the reduction in cost. Voters love their pickups and SUVs, car makers love the profits from big vehicles, Republicans love the votes from suburban voters driving those high profit cars and oil industry loves selling product. If voters truly were concerned, high mileage sedans and EVs would be popular and profitable. Hint: they’re not selling. I see guys in huge $60,000 pickups buying bird seed. My wife is all about recycling and science until you suggest taking her Ford Explorer away. At 17mpg, it ain’t happening, either.

Don’t buy the BS money buys votes; if it did we’d be complaining about the second President Clinton.

GF

That's a lot of nonsense. Voters strongly support fuel efficiency standards and car companies are begging the Trump administration to not lower the standards, so that leaves republicans and the fossil fuel industry as the sole parties interested in reducing fuel standards. If a President can go against voters and industry's wishes on fuel efficiency, why would it be such a stretch to do the same, but in the same interests of those parties, ie more efficient standards?

Trump ran on increasing the use of coal. And he won. I can’t really blame him if he disagrees with your characterization of the electorate.

...he won a minority of the electorate, hardly on the be-all-end-all of coal. Your point?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Magog
Posts: 843
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:09 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
That's a lot of nonsense. Voters strongly support fuel efficiency standards and car companies are begging the Trump administration to not lower the standards, so that leaves republicans and the fossil fuel industry as the sole parties interested in reducing fuel standards. If a President can go against voters and industry's wishes on fuel efficiency, why would it be such a stretch to do the same, but in the same interests of those parties, ie more efficient standards?

Trump ran on increasing the use of coal. And he won. I can’t really blame him if he disagrees with your characterization of the electorate.

...he won a minority of the electorate, hardly on the be-all-end-all of coal. Your point?

My point is that Trump's victory shows that your argument that "voters strongly support fuel efficiency standards" is a crappy argument.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3147
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:22 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, I know, all of the above, answer E. CAFE is ridiculous as its primary effect has been to increase annual miles driven—longer commutes, more exurban development, and cheaper transportation by the reduction in cost. Voters love their pickups and SUVs, car makers love the profits from big vehicles, Republicans love the votes from suburban voters driving those high profit cars and oil industry loves selling product. If voters truly were concerned, high mileage sedans and EVs would be popular and profitable. Hint: they’re not selling. I see guys in huge $60,000 pickups buying bird seed. My wife is all about recycling and science until you suggest taking her Ford Explorer away. At 17mpg, it ain’t happening, either.

Don’t buy the BS money buys votes; if it did we’d be complaining about the second President Clinton.

GF

That's a lot of nonsense. Voters strongly support fuel efficiency standards and car companies are begging the Trump administration to not lower the standards, so that leaves republicans and the fossil fuel industry as the sole parties interested in reducing fuel standards. If a President can go against voters and industry's wishes on fuel efficiency, why would it be such a stretch to do the same, but in the same interests of those parties, ie more efficient standards?


Well, car companies were bailed out by the Obama crony capitalists and don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them. The bureaucrats and Dems won’t be happily disposed if the companies oppose the changes.

Of course, voters support fuel efficiency, it makes their pickups and SUVs cheaper to operate. What they don’t understand is the price they paying for it. New cars are horribly complicated, turbocharged mini engines designed to satisfy the EPA test on mileage and give the consumer 300 hp. Well, lots of experience tells me this is a legal version of Dieselgate. Run a 2 liter four cylinder engine sans boost on the test cycle-great mileage. Drive it using using the power and fuel economy is worse than a NA V6. You can ECO or BOOST, just not both. No real spare tire is a pain in tukas, just to save some weight.
 
alfa164
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, car companies were bailed out by the Obama crony capitalists and don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them. The bureaucrats and Dems won’t be happily disposed if the companies oppose the changes.


Yep, some Obama crony named "George W. Bush" was the one who approved the bailout that saved the American auto industry - and, miraculously, he managed to do it even before his mentor, Obama, came into office!

"On December 19, 2008, President Bush agreed to a $24.9 billion bailout using TARP: $13.4 billion for GM, $5.5 billion for Chrysler, and $5 billion for GMAC."

https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

What do you say then? Do you believe in science or not? Do you believe the lobbyist with the same tactic they used with cigarettes in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's?


I firmly believe the evidence that humans are a primary driver in the change of Earth's climate to be inconclusive. There are simply too many variables to know for certain.

Edit to add: I believe the study of climate change to often be a cart before the horse type of analogy. Scientists with a hypothesis seeking a means to confirm their hypothesis without properly controlling for all the remaining variables.


Check, a science denier.


You're welcome to put away your emotional response and actually have a discussion on the matter to try and convince me to the contrary.

If you think I'm a science denier, you should probably never fly on an aircraft I've worked on. Which is just about most of the ones you'll fly on commercially. Unless you fly in Russia of course.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Check, a science denier.


I'd refrain from name calling if I'd be you. Actually, I'd refrain from posting in any climate change related topic.
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
alfa164
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:57 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
I'd refrain from name calling if I'd be you. Actually, I'd refrain from posting in any climate change related topic.


Why? Because the "I-don't-believe-in-climate-change" nut-cases may attack? That shouldn't prevent people from discussing an important - dare I suggest, a very important - topic.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3147
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:03 pm

alfa164 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, car companies were bailed out by the Obama crony capitalists and don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them. The bureaucrats and Dems won’t be happily disposed if the companies oppose the changes.


Yep, some Obama crony named "George W. Bush" was the one who approved the bailout that saved the American auto industry - and, miraculously, he managed to do it even before his mentor, Obama, came into office!

"On December 19, 2008, President Bush agreed to a $24.9 billion bailout using TARP: $13.4 billion for GM, $5.5 billion for Chrysler, and $5 billion for GMAC."

https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670


And he was wrong, too, but the whole process including saving the UAW under Obama’s appointee Steve Rattner. The companies should have gone thru conventional Chapter 11. Another thread.

In any case, the EPA and NHTSA bureaucracy holds sway over the companies and Detroit isn’t about to go against them. Detroit and the bureaucrats knows Trump’s only temporary, they’re going on forever.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Consequences of Climate Change

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:03 pm

alfa164 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
I'd refrain from name calling if I'd be you. Actually, I'd refrain from posting in any climate change related topic.


Why? Because the "I-don't-believe-in-climate-change" nut-cases may attack? That shouldn't prevent people from discussing an important - dare I suggest, a very important - topic.


Because he wrote in some other discussion that he's selling CO2 pollution reducing technology. Therefore he's definitely as much biased as any "I-don't-believe-in-climate-change" nut-case.
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40

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