Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
It's very easy.

1) Planned Parenthood performs 50% of all abortions in the United States.


Because of Republican's religious objections, Planned Parenthood is not allowed to perform abortions at all using any government funds.


That is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about a potential post-Hyde Amendment world and the largest beneficiary by far would be Planned Parenthood. That's not even up for discussion.

seb146 wrote:
It would also be illegal for them to give money to candidates, IIRC.


Would it? Then throw them in jail because that's what they do:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals ... cycle=2016

As you can see their contributions are rapidly rising, so you can imagine what would happen if they had even more money to dispose of.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:09 pm

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
It's very easy.

1) Planned Parenthood performs 50% of all abortions in the United States.


Because of Republican's religious objections, Planned Parenthood is not allowed to perform abortions at all using any government funds.


That is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about a potential post-Hyde Amendment world and the largest beneficiary by far would be Planned Parenthood. That's not even up for discussion.


But it is completely relevant to the discussion. "Religious freedom" is exactly why Republicans rally against abortion and contraception access and why Republicans hate Planned Parenthood and want every one of them closed. Their own personal moral objections.

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It would also be illegal for them to give money to candidates, IIRC.


Would it? Then throw them in jail because that's what they do:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals ... cycle=2016

As you can see their contributions are rapidly rising, so you can imagine what would happen if they had even more money to dispose of.


It has been my understanding that they are not allowed to give money to candidates. There are several sources cited in the link which show otherwise. Thank you for the education.

Now, getting on to the tab that says exactly what PP was lobbying for. Did you read through that? Women's health care, hepatitis research, labor bills, children and newborn protections, mental health counseling.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:34 am

seb146 wrote:

But it is completely relevant to the discussion. "Religious freedom" is exactly why Republicans rally against abortion and contraception access and why Republicans hate Planned Parenthood and want every one of them closed. Their own personal moral objections.



Very few people want Planned Parenthood closed. A very popular view on the right and also my personal view is, they should not receive public funding if they also perform such highly divisive acts as abortions. Whether or not they receive public funds specifically to perform abortions or not is inconsequential for this.

Religious freedom hasn’t got much to do with it. I am completely agnostic but I still think abortions are horrible and should not be paid for, even indirectly, by the government. I’m sure you’ll be able to find some hard left billionaire like George Soros to fund abortion businesses for the poor in lieu of the government.

So in my view Planned Parenthood is a fundamentally valuable organization but has two big issues that need to be alleviated for them to continue receiving public funding:
1) Abortions
2) Political contributions

Both have to stop if public funding is to continue.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3510
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:51 am

aviationaware wrote:
So in my view Planned Parenthood is a fundamentally valuable organization but has two big issues that need to be alleviated for them to continue receiving public funding:
1) Abortions
2) Political contributions
Both have to stop if public funding is to continue.


Do you feel the same antipathy towards public funding, i.e., you tax dollars funding, the verifiably unsuccessful demands for "abstinence education"?

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-polic ... -behavior/
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:53 am

Yes.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:51 am

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But it is completely relevant to the discussion. "Religious freedom" is exactly why Republicans rally against abortion and contraception access and why Republicans hate Planned Parenthood and want every one of them closed. Their own personal moral objections.



Very few people want Planned Parenthood closed.


Republicans work VERY hard to close every single PP clinic everywhere. You all keep screaming about abortion like they are simply a conveyor belt of women going in and out and demand they all be closed while disregarding all the good work they do in providing mammograms, pelvic exams, birth control, STI testing. Republicans want them shut down period. Because Republicans have embraced "Christians" as their base, they have, in turn, worked VERY hard to close PP clinics.

Because churches pay no taxes, they can give and give and give to the Republican party and tell their minions to vote Republican because every unborn life is more sacred than those children starving on the street.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:58 am

seb146 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But it is completely relevant to the discussion. "Religious freedom" is exactly why Republicans rally against abortion and contraception access and why Republicans hate Planned Parenthood and want every one of them closed. Their own personal moral objections.



Very few people want Planned Parenthood closed.


Republicans work VERY hard to close every single PP clinic everywhere. You all keep screaming about abortion like they are simply a conveyor belt of women going in and out


Well Planned Parenthood performed roughly 325,000 abortions last year which, if you count it as murder, would amount to over half of all murders in the US in that year. So it’s really a big shock that people who consider abortion murder would want Planned Parenthood changed or closed. Better try next time.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11931
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:12 am

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Very few people want Planned Parenthood closed.


Republicans work VERY hard to close every single PP clinic everywhere. You all keep screaming about abortion like they are simply a conveyor belt of women going in and out


Well Planned Parenthood performed roughly 325,000 abortions last year which, if you count it as murder, would amount to over half of all murders in the US in that year. So it’s really a big shock that people who consider abortion murder would want Planned Parenthood changed or closed. Better try next time.


Oh well, where governments spend money is where their heart is. Protecting life is swell until born and the costs really balloon. The top federal spending priorities are: debt service, social security, Medicare, and military (largely pork barrel crap). Nothing remotely significant about community development or daycare support.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:18 am

aviationaware wrote:
seb146 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Very few people want Planned Parenthood closed.


Republicans work VERY hard to close every single PP clinic everywhere. You all keep screaming about abortion like they are simply a conveyor belt of women going in and out


Well Planned Parenthood performed roughly 325,000 abortions last year which, if you count it as murder, would amount to over half of all murders in the US in that year. So it’s really a big shock that people who consider abortion murder would want Planned Parenthood changed or closed. Better try next time.


Where would those 325,000 be now? Who would be caring for them? How would they be fed and housed? Why were they aborted in the first place? You know you can not paint with a broad brush.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:51 am

seb146 wrote:
Because churches pay no taxes, they can give and give and give to the Republican party and tell their minions to vote Republican because every unborn life is more sacred than those children starving on the street.

Please stop making things up. It’s getting old.

Churches cannot give to the Republican Party. They cannot tell their parishioners how to vote.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:01 am

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Because churches pay no taxes, they can give and give and give to the Republican party and tell their minions to vote Republican because every unborn life is more sacred than those children starving on the street.

Please stop making things up. It’s getting old.

Churches cannot give to the Republican Party. They cannot tell their parishioners how to vote.


And, yet, they do all the time. This is why I am having a crisis of faith. I went to service at my childhood church and they were campaigning from the pulpit. It was sick. I am sick of it. The Catholics are doing it, the Episcopals are doing it, the Mormons are doing it. The pastor, minister, priest stands up there and goes on and on about baby killers and hate speech and selling cake to specific people. We The People need to stop giving aid and comfort to this propaganda.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 529
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:05 am

seb146 wrote:
Where would those 325,000 be now?


Excellent question, Lets ask them - oh wait - we cant because they were sucked out of their mothers vagina with a hose. Do you think they felt any pain before they were dismembered?

Mike Drop
 
alfa164
Posts: 3510
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:03 am

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Because churches pay no taxes, they can give and give and give to the Republican party and tell their minions to vote Republican because every unborn life is more sacred than those children starving on the street.

Please stop making things up. It’s getting old. Churches cannot give to the Republican Party. They cannot tell their parishioners how to vote.


In the great words :lol: of another poster: Please stop making things up!

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separa ... ump-morons

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch ... nald-trump

https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/o ... 29720.html

No... no pastor would ever indicate how anyone is his congregation should vote....

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:03 am

MikeDrop wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Where would those 325,000 be now?


Excellent question, Lets ask them - oh wait - we cant because they were sucked out of their mothers vagina with a hose. Do you think they felt any pain before they were dismembered?

Mike Drop


So you don't care and don't even know the medical procedure. Good to know.

Why not go ask those 325,000 women first why they made that choice.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MikeDrop
Posts: 529
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:53 am

seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Where would those 325,000 be now?


Excellent question, Lets ask them - oh wait - we cant because they were sucked out of their mothers vagina with a hose. Do you think they felt any pain before they were dismembered?

Mike Drop


So you don't care and don't even know the medical procedure. Good to know.


https://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned ... rocedures/

Suction/vacuum is a common procedure, I did leave off “dialation and induction”. Which is used in the second and third trimester. According to the link I provided it is also referred to as “intrauterine cranial decompression” which is a fancy way of saying that the “doctor” crushes the baby’s head while it is still inside the mother. The baby is then sucked out and dismembered.

Mike Drop
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:27 am

MikeDrop wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:


Excellent question, Lets ask them - oh wait - we cant because they were sucked out of their mothers vagina with a hose. Do you think they felt any pain before they were dismembered?

Mike Drop


So you don't care and don't even know the medical procedure. Good to know.


https://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned ... rocedures/

Suction/vacuum is a common procedure, I did leave off “dialation and induction”. Which is used in the second and third trimester. According to the link I provided it is also referred to as “intrauterine cranial decompression” which is a fancy way of saying that the “doctor” crushes the baby’s head while it is still inside the mother. The baby is then sucked out and dismembered.

Mike Drop


Third trimester abortions are only allowed under very specific circumstances. "Suction/vacuum" is not even a thing as it is extremely dangerous. There are even social media groups begging and pleading with women to not shorten their monthly cycle with vacuuming. None of what you say makes any sense at all. I do not know much about the medical part of this but I do know BS when I see it. And I call BS right now.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:56 am

alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Because churches pay no taxes, they can give and give and give to the Republican party and tell their minions to vote Republican because every unborn life is more sacred than those children starving on the street.

Please stop making things up. It’s getting old. Churches cannot give to the Republican Party. They cannot tell their parishioners how to vote.


In the great words :lol: of another poster: Please stop making things up!

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separa ... ump-morons

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch ... nald-trump

https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/o ... 29720.html

No... no pastor would ever indicate how anyone is his congregation should vote....

:roll:

Pastors are allowed to have personal opinions. It’s rather scary that you think that they shouldn’t be able to. Think about what a thought-prohibiting policy would do to people who work for non-profits that we, as liberals, support.

None of these are examples of telling the congregation how to vote. So my premise stands.

I’m sure that somebody has broken the law somewhere, but that is extremely rare.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6032
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:04 pm

aviationaware wrote:
It's very easy.

1) Planned Parenthood performs 50% of all abortions in the United States.
2) Planned Parenthood finances hard left Democrats.
3) When the government pays, prices rise.
4) More money in Planned Parenthoods coffers = more money to give away to hard left Democrats.

This very logical causal chain causes embarrassing flip-flops like Biden's.


So what you are saying is that Republicans are going after Planned parenthood for two reasons. One, their cherry picked interpretation of a fairy tale written two thousand years ago by people ignorant of the world and universe around them. Two, to deny a funding source for democrats.

It also shows that republicans/conservatives really don't care about fiscal conservatism. limited government or keeping government out of peoples personal lives. The only thing that seems to get them fired up is abortion.
Last edited by LMP737 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18062
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:28 pm

Magog wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Please stop making things up. It’s getting old. Churches cannot give to the Republican Party. They cannot tell their parishioners how to vote.


In the great words :lol: of another poster: Please stop making things up!

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separa ... ump-morons

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch ... nald-trump

https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/o ... 29720.html

No... no pastor would ever indicate how anyone is his congregation should vote....

:roll:

Pastors are allowed to have personal opinions. It’s rather scary that you think that they shouldn’t be able to. Think about what a thought-prohibiting policy would do to people who work for non-profits that we, as liberals, support.

None of these are examples of telling the congregation how to vote. So my premise stands.

I’m sure that somebody has broken the law somewhere, but that is extremely rare.

Yah all those evangelical leaders fellating their grifter messiah are all "personal opinions" kept strictly out of the megachurch. And if you believe that, I have an exciting money making opportunity that the Lordt has told me He has in store for you.

LMP737 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
It's very easy.

1) Planned Parenthood performs 50% of all abortions in the United States.
2) Planned Parenthood finances hard left Democrats.
3) When the government pays, prices rise.
4) More money in Planned Parenthoods coffers = more money to give away to hard left Democrats.

This very logical causal chain causes embarrassing flip-flops like Biden's.


So what you are saying is that Republicans are going after Planned parenthood for two reasons. One, their cherry picked interpretation of a fairy tale written two thousand years ago by people ignorant of the world and universe around them. Two, to deny a funding source for democrats.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: Ding ding ding ding we have a winner. Given the mistresses, side chicks, handjobs at festivals, outright pedophiles, under the radar abortions, and adultery galore, it sure ain't family values!
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:44 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

In the great words :lol: of another poster: Please stop making things up!

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separa ... ump-morons

https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch ... nald-trump

https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/o ... 29720.html

No... no pastor would ever indicate how anyone is his congregation should vote....

:roll:

Pastors are allowed to have personal opinions. It’s rather scary that you think that they shouldn’t be able to. Think about what a thought-prohibiting policy would do to people who work for non-profits that we, as liberals, support.

None of these are examples of telling the congregation how to vote. So my premise stands.

I’m sure that somebody has broken the law somewhere, but that is extremely rare.

Yah all those evangelical leaders fellating their grifter messiah are all "personal opinions" kept strictly out of the megachurch. And if you believe that, I have an exciting money making opportunity that the Lordt has told me He has in store for you.


You’ve just moved the goalposts. The original premise was that preachers were telling their congregation how to vote. They are actually quite careful not to do that since their tax-exempt status is MUCH more important to them than how a parishioner votes.

I fully appreciate that it is somewhat sloppy as long as a pastor is entitled to have their own personal thoughts. But I don’t see banning personal thoughts as something we should strive for. Surely you agree.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:50 pm

Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Pastors are allowed to have personal opinions. It’s rather scary that you think that they shouldn’t be able to. Think about what a thought-prohibiting policy would do to people who work for non-profits that we, as liberals, support.

None of these are examples of telling the congregation how to vote. So my premise stands.

I’m sure that somebody has broken the law somewhere, but that is extremely rare.

Yah all those evangelical leaders fellating their grifter messiah are all "personal opinions" kept strictly out of the megachurch. And if you believe that, I have an exciting money making opportunity that the Lordt has told me He has in store for you.


You’ve just moved the goalposts. The original premise was that preachers were telling their congregation how to vote. They are actually quite careful not to do that since their tax-exempt status is MUCH more important to them than how a parishioner votes.

I fully appreciate that it is somewhat sloppy as long as a pastor is entitled to have their own personal thoughts. But I don’t see banning personal thoughts as something we should strive for. Surely you agree.


You are mashing to separate things together. The point is that there are church leaders telling their congregations that voting for a Democrat is wrong and evil. Some go so far as to tie in the book of Revelation to show how evil Democrats are and how equality for LGBTQ people is the beginning of Armageddon.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18062
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:04 pm

Magog wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Pastors are allowed to have personal opinions. It’s rather scary that you think that they shouldn’t be able to. Think about what a thought-prohibiting policy would do to people who work for non-profits that we, as liberals, support.

None of these are examples of telling the congregation how to vote. So my premise stands.

I’m sure that somebody has broken the law somewhere, but that is extremely rare.

Yah all those evangelical leaders fellating their grifter messiah are all "personal opinions" kept strictly out of the megachurch. And if you believe that, I have an exciting money making opportunity that the Lordt has told me He has in store for you.


You’ve just moved the goalposts. The original premise was that preachers were telling their congregation how to vote. They are actually quite careful not to do that since their tax-exempt status is MUCH more important to them than how a parishioner votes.

Nonsense. The IRS rarely goes after tax exempt status of churches and it certainly isn't going after them now.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:05 pm

seb146 wrote:
The point is that there are church leaders telling their congregations that voting for a Democrat is wrong and evil.

I get it. You want to believe that this is true. Badly. Except for an extremely rare outlier, this just isn't happening. At least not in their official capacity. You can thank tax law for that. As I said earlier, churches tend to care about their tax-exempt status much more than a parishioner's vote.

Has it happened somewhere? I am sure it has. But is this a genuine thing - absolutely not.

It is abundantly clear to me that you have not read this:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-07-41.pdf
 
alfa164
Posts: 3510
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:22 pm

Magog wrote:
Has it happened somewhere? I am sure it has. But is this a genuine thing - absolutely not.


If it happened, it is a genuine thing. Time to bone up on English...

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:24 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Has it happened somewhere? I am sure it has. But is this a genuine thing - absolutely not.


If it happened, it is a genuine thing. Time to bone up on English...

A thing? Yes. An irrelevant thing? Yes.

But of course the anti-Christian bigotry on this forum hates to take a day off.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:45 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The point is that there are church leaders telling their congregations that voting for a Democrat is wrong and evil.

I get it. You want to believe that this is true. Badly. Except for an extremely rare outlier, this just isn't happening. At least not in their official capacity. You can thank tax law for that. As I said earlier, churches tend to care about their tax-exempt status much more than a parishioner's vote.

Has it happened somewhere? I am sure it has. But is this a genuine thing - absolutely not.

It is abundantly clear to me that you have not read this:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-07-41.pdf


So I should not believe what I see and hear is what you are saying. Got it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
alfa164
Posts: 3510
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:53 pm

Magog wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Has it happened somewhere? I am sure it has. But is this a genuine thing - absolutely not.

If it happened, it is a genuine thing. Time to bone up on English...

A thing? Yes. An irrelevant thing? Yes. But of course the anti-Christian bigotry on this forum hates to take a day off.


So.... opposing restrictive government intervention in a woman's rights is now "anti-Christian bigotry"? Or are you just searching your scripts for some non sequitur you hope no one will notice? You are aware, I am sure :lol: , that you just made most Christians anti-Christian:

"...only 35% of those who are part of the mainline Protestant tradition say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, with 60% in support of keeping abortion legal. Members of the Episcopal Church (79%) and the United Church of Christ (72%) are especially likely to support legal abortion, while most members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the mainline Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (65%) also take this position."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/22/american-religious-groups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/

Maybe it is time to reevaluate your fake narratives... your false analogies... and your feigned indignation. Bring us some new scripts, comrade!
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:08 pm

seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The point is that there are church leaders telling their congregations that voting for a Democrat is wrong and evil.

I get it. You want to believe that this is true. Badly. Except for an extremely rare outlier, this just isn't happening. At least not in their official capacity. You can thank tax law for that. As I said earlier, churches tend to care about their tax-exempt status much more than a parishioner's vote.

Has it happened somewhere? I am sure it has. But is this a genuine thing - absolutely not.

It is abundantly clear to me that you have not read this:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-07-41.pdf


So I should not believe what I see and hear is what you are saying. Got it.

Perhaps a better way to say it would be, "So I shouldn't let my anecdotal evidence get the better of me?"

You really don't need to be so flippant. As I said, it is a known fact that churches zealously protect their tax-exempt status. Which only makes sense. Hopefully you haven't checked your common sense at the door.

The ban on political campaign activity is not intended to restrict the free expression of church leaders speaking for themselves, as individuals. You appear to be conflating this with making partisan comments in official organization publications or at official church functions.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:17 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Magog wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
If it happened, it is a genuine thing. Time to bone up on English...

A thing? Yes. An irrelevant thing? Yes. But of course the anti-Christian bigotry on this forum hates to take a day off.


So.... opposing restrictive government intervention in a woman's rights is now "anti-Christian bigotry"? Or are you just searching your scripts for some non sequitur you hope no one will notice? You are aware, I am sure :lol: , that you just made most Christians anti-Christian:

"...only 35% of those who are part of the mainline Protestant tradition say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, with 60% in support of keeping abortion legal. Members of the Episcopal Church (79%) and the United Church of Christ (72%) are especially likely to support legal abortion, while most members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the mainline Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (65%) also take this position."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/22/american-religious-groups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/

Maybe it is time to reevaluate your fake narratives... your false analogies... and your feigned indignation. Bring us some new scripts, comrade!

You just proved my point. The anti-Christian members of this forum want you to believe that every Christian is a bible thumping fundamentalist. Thank you for illustrating my counter argument.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15697
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:38 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Where would those 325,000 be now?


Excellent question, Lets ask them - oh wait - we cant because they were sucked out of their mothers vagina with a hose. Do you think they felt any pain before they were dismembered?

Mike Drop



It never ceases to amaze me at how people who argue that government should pay for the well-being of all are also in favor of making it easier to prematurely end the lives of hundreds of thousands of future taxpayers and voters each year who would likely support their causes.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22306
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:43 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
I get it. You want to believe that this is true. Badly. Except for an extremely rare outlier, this just isn't happening. At least not in their official capacity. You can thank tax law for that. As I said earlier, churches tend to care about their tax-exempt status much more than a parishioner's vote.

Has it happened somewhere? I am sure it has. But is this a genuine thing - absolutely not.

It is abundantly clear to me that you have not read this:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-07-41.pdf


So I should not believe what I see and hear is what you are saying. Got it.

Perhaps a better way to say it would be, "So I shouldn't let my anecdotal evidence get the better of me?"

You really don't need to be so flippant. As I said, it is a known fact that churches zealously protect their tax-exempt status. Which only makes sense. Hopefully you haven't checked your common sense at the door.

The ban on political campaign activity is not intended to restrict the free expression of church leaders speaking for themselves, as individuals. You appear to be conflating this with making partisan comments in official organization publications or at official church functions.


Again, you are dismissing what I have actually seen with my own two eyes and heard with my own two ears in real life. On top of that, you are mashing two different topics together. I am going to say this again:

I have heard and seen pastors from the pulpit asking the congregation to vote a certain way on certain topics. I know that does not jibe with what you want me to see and hear, but it is true. Sunday morning service in rural Oregon, preachers are telling their congregants how to vote. Others have witnessed the same thing across the country.

No one is disputing that pastors, reverends, rabbis, imams, what have you, should have their opinion. You keep bringing this up like it is relevant. It is not. Religious leaders have opinions. No one disputes that. In fact, we all expect that and defend that.

What we can not defend is these leaders going in on the holy day and telling worshipers how to vote. And it happens.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12887
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Here's the thing: why should tax dollars be used for abortions when it's mostly an elective procedure?


Uninviting someone from your house is also elective, yet when they refuse to go law enforcement remove them for free, even if you have the funds to pay for the service.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:34 am

It was a horrible analogy.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12887
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:01 pm

Magog wrote:
It was a horrible analogy.


Yes. It still is a correct one.

Since the GOP is, according to you, pure libertarian, they should be very supportive. After all it was Murray Rothbard that started using the word trespassing with regards to unwanted fetuses, and he is one of the superstars of the 20th-century American libertarian movement.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Topic Author
Posts: 8355
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:50 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Here's the thing: why should tax dollars be used for abortions when it's mostly an elective procedure?


Uninviting someone from your house is also elective, yet when they refuse to go law enforcement remove them for free, even if you have the funds to pay for the service.

Best regards
Thomas

Sorry Thomas. This is an awful analogy.

Law enforcement is paid by taxpayers to enforce the law and maintain order and peace. Having someone who is not welcomed anymore refuse to leave MY property is intruding in order and peace. Unless I had my own security force, I will go to the actual law enforcement force that I pay for with tax dollars to provide a service (in this case, remove an unwelcomed person).

Your analogy applies when it's a mall or a business who can hire their own security company, but even they are somewhat limited in what they can do and still require actual law enforcement to support or take over.

Here's the other thing: if you welcomed that person into your house, and then want to kick them out for no reason, you're still within your right to do so, but law enforcement will likely ask a reasoning for why that person was uninvited and, if the person and other witnesses agree that they were not causing problems, they may be escorted out and not be given a fine or anything. They may, however, decide to fine you for calling them when there was no emergency at all.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
bhill
Posts: 1797
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:08 pm

Because it was a purely politically motivated bill. I also wonder how all of this Anti-Choice legislation does not run afoul of the prohibition of Bills of Attainder....they do apply to civil rights as well...
Carpe Pices
 
LMP737
Posts: 6032
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:16 pm

EA CO AS wrote:


It never ceases to amaze me at how people who argue that government should pay for the well-being of all are also in favor of making it easier to prematurely end the lives of hundreds of thousands of future taxpayers and voters each year who would likely support their causes.


It never ceases to amaze me that people will try and use the government to force their cherry picked interpretation of a story written two thousand years ago by people ignorant of the world and universe around them. And if they had actually bothered to read the bible they would know that their god has no problem with the death of unborn babies.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12887
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:27 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Here's the thing: why should tax dollars be used for abortions when it's mostly an elective procedure?


Uninviting someone from your house is also elective, yet when they refuse to go law enforcement remove them for free, even if you have the funds to pay for the service.

Best regards
Thomas

Sorry Thomas. This is an awful analogy.


In deed it is. I didnt say it was a good one. If someone can not force to stay on your property, no one should be able to force a stay in someone's body.

LMP737 wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people will try and use the government to force their cherry picked interpretation of a story written two thousand years ago by people ignorant of the world and universe around them.


As is evident by the fact that the Alabama law does not apply to embryos treated by artificial means. They dont care sh*t all about a "Baby" unless it is in a woman's body, where it provides leverage to have control over women.

And if they had actually bothered to read the bible they would know that their god has no problem with the death of unborn babies.


Not just no problem with the death of unborn babies... born is fine too. Just read up what happened to King David's, himself a criminal, adulterer and murderer of his mistresses husband, first born: God slowly killed it.....

Even abortion is not just fine, it is commended:

Numbers 5:11-31 wrote:
Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 [b]May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”


Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:05 pm

That's a poor translation from Hebrew as it more closely translates to "thigh" than "womb" or "utereus". There are later passages in the old testament where it's clear the same word is meant to represent "thigh" as they are referencing a man and not a woman.

That test was meant to scare people into a confession.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3510
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:09 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
That's a poor translation from Hebrew as it more closely translates to "thigh" than "womb" or "utereus". There are later passages in the old testament where it's clear the same word is meant to represent "thigh" as they are referencing a man and not a woman. That test was meant to scare people into a confession.


So you mean it should be translated as: “may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your thigh miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your [b]thigh miscarries.?

I never heard of a man having a baby miscarry in his thigh. I think god must have skipped Anatomy class. And maybe Sex Education, too...

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12887
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:16 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
That's a poor translation from Hebrew as it more closely translates to "thigh" than "womb" or "utereus". There are later passages in the old testament where it's clear the same word is meant to represent "thigh" as they are referencing a man and not a woman.

That test was meant to scare people into a confession.


Yeah, i know that it translates into "thigh" and not "uterus" as a word, however in context it is correctly translated as that is exactly the phrasing that talmudic sources use to describe miscarriage.

That is why old translation, Orthodox Jewish Bible or King James, translate with thigh rotting away and such, while newer translation translate it as the description of a miscarriage, as it is quite obvious that speakers of modern languages won't understand as the phrasing isn't used anymore.

The fetus is only some fluid in the first few weeks, hence phrasing along the burst water line, or is later and up to birth considered a body part of the mother, usually as a thigh, that can rott. In the bible abortion is about as much murder as cutting of your own finger is.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4786
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Why is the Hyde Amendment so controversial?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:34 pm

There is no such thing as a compromise with liberals, particularly on abortion. They started out with wanting abortion to be "safe, legal and rare" and now have made it legal (in NY, at least - give it some time to extend it to some other shitholes) to literally rip a baby from his mother's womb, even if it is against the mother's wishes. Kermit Gosnell was just ahead of his time, as far as liberals are concerned.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Number6, TheF15Ace and 23 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos