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kitplane01
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Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:16 am

aviationaware wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:

I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.


Well even then he'd be wrong. Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles.


I'm going to guess you like Fox News. "In the U.S., the pay gap between men and women is 21.4 percent, meaning that women earn, on average, about $0.79 for every $1 a man earns. "

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/the ... -new-study

Various airlines in the UK have to report their gender pay gap.

British Airways reports a 35% pay gap (mean wage) or a 10% pay gap (median wage).
Ryanair reports a 72% pay gap (mean wage) or a 67% (median wage).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... le-pilots/

You can argue over the causes of the wage gap, and if done well that's an interesting discussion. But I'm going to believe Fox News, British Airways, and Ryanair that the wage gap is double digits.

Factoid #1: In the UK, the airline industry has a larger wage gap than the economy as a whole (median wage basis).

Factoid #2: British Airways employs an almost equal number of men and women, 46 per cent female, 54 per cent male.

Factoid #3: I made a new topic because I didn't want to thread-drift the old topic.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:39 am

Isn't pilot compensation the largest single labor expense of a typical airline? And pilots being the best-paid airline employees, with exception of executive echelon of management?

If yes, then the elephant in the room suddenly will be noticed.

If a gender pay gap is to be closed, you would need
1) get more women into pilot seats, and/or
2) bridge pay gap between pilots and other airline employees

2 is a massive can of worms.
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aviationaware
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 am

You can make as many new topics as you’d like. It doesn’t change the fact that the assumptions behind the wage gap are dishonest and misleading. There is no more positive way to put it. Absolute rock bottom.

Of course airlines have huge wage gaps if you don’t account for any factors. Most pilots are male and most flight attendants are female. Pilots make significantly more money than flight attendants. “Analyzing” a wage gap without looking at any of the factors behind it is stupid, dumb and moronic.

An honest look at the wage gap demands a multivariate analysis. They’d have been done, and they conclude that the adjusted wage gap is insignificant.

Discussing a wage gap only makes sense if you look at the same position, same experience, same company. Period.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:48 am

These statistics always account for company wide (with more women in lower paying functions) statistics. Pilots are more expensive and largely male.

Anything under middle management is based on fixed union wages with us. Above that the wages are high enough that complaining is just useless whining.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:51 am

I work for an airline, and the collective contract is identical for male and female and is dependent on the roles you perform within that collective agreement and the set rates within it . As a collective agreement, the rates are set not by gender but by hours worked. so effectively if you choose to work more hours you will get paid (and taxed) for them. As an observation around the airport, I would say Male colleagues work longer hours and take more overtime than female colleagues. I think this is the cause, as it is illegal to pay someone less for being the wrong gender. I would also suggest that there are still major choices being made that affect things such as globally only a small percentage of pilots are female (3%), but conversely, the opposite is true of cabin crew (roughly 25% male). Naturally, a pilot earns significantly more than cabin crew or anyone else and so this shows that if split off into gender the Male side of the airline earns significantly more than the female half (and hence you get such major "wage gaps" within the industry.
I think far too much is made of the gender wage gap without putting enough parameters in their 'data' in order to ensure the correct outcome.
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kitplane01
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:14 am

aviationaware wrote:
You can make as many new topics as you’d like. It doesn’t change the fact that the assumptions behind the wage gap are dishonest and misleading. There is no more positive way to put it. Absolute rock bottom.

Of course airlines have huge wage gaps if you don’t account for any factors. Most pilots are male and most flight attendants are female. Pilots make significantly more money than flight attendants. “Analyzing” a wage gap without looking at any of the factors behind it is stupid, dumb and moronic.

An honest look at the wage gap demands a multivariate analysis. They’d have been done, and they conclude that the adjusted wage gap is insignificant.

Discussing a wage gap only makes sense if you look at the same position, same experience, same company. Period.


I agree that "Analyzing a wage gap without looking at any of the factors behind it is stupid, dumb and moronic." I hope everyone agrees.

And there are many studies that show that a large part of the wage gap is because the jobs with more women pay less on average than the jobs with more men. I bet everyone agrees on that too.

"Wage gap" has a standard definition: the average difference between the remuneration for men and women who are working. And that number is much more than 10%. I'm just correcting your error.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:16 am

aviationaware wrote:

Discussing a wage gap only makes sense if you look at the same position, same experience, same company. Period.


That's false. For example, one could have a sensical conversation about why higher paying jobs have more men than women (pilots, upper management).
 
aviationaware
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:16 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I'm just correcting your error.


What you’re doing is what we in reality call semantic bullshitting.

Meanwhile outside the borders of lala Land:
https://scholar.harvard.edu/bolotnyy/pu ... rket-paper

Whoops.

kitplane01 wrote:

That's false. For example, one could have a sensical conversation about why higher paying jobs have more men than women (pilots, upper management).


From my experience that is not a discussion those claiming the huge gender wage gap are willing to engage in without claiming that the amount of men in managerial positions and technical jobs is some evil conspiracy of the tyrannical patriarchy.

Facts from studies conducted in Scandinavia suggest that the more access women have to such jobs, the less likely they are to chose them. So we will never get 50% women in management without either forcing them or promoting less able people just because of their gender, both inherently unpleasant ideas.
Last edited by aviationaware on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DAL763ER
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:17 am

Not this again. I hardly think two pilots (male and female) or two flight attendants in the same role, with the same seniority, and same hours worked, get paid differently. Comparing pilots and flight attendants is like saying "women (executives) get paid more than men (pilots)", it's an apples to bananas comparison.

I work in software for a big tech company. I have a female coworker who's been in the role for 3 years, was pregnant once and is now pregnant for the second time. You can't possibly expect that we make the same amount of money when she has, in effect, worked half the time I have.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:20 am

aviationaware wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
I'm just correcting your error.


What you’re doing is what we in reality call semantic bullshitting.

Meanwhile outside the borders of lala Land:
https://scholar.harvard.edu/bolotnyy/pu ... rket-paper

Whoops.


You wrote "Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles." And the study you're quoting says "Even in a unionized environment where work tasks are similar, hourly wages are identical, and tenure dictates promotions, we find that female workers earn $0.89 on the male-worker dollar (in weekly earnings)."

Also, there is no need for insults. Seriously.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:23 am

kitplane01 wrote:

Also, there is no need for insults. Seriously.

There is an absolute requirement to be as clear and forceful as possible about this wage gap fantasy and it’s proponents.

If there is a gender wage gap there is also a planetary temperature gap and we need to work as hard a possible to equalize temperatures on Earth and Mars.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:04 am

kitplane01 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
I'm just correcting your error.


What you’re doing is what we in reality call semantic bullshitting.

Meanwhile outside the borders of lala Land:
https://scholar.harvard.edu/bolotnyy/pu ... rket-paper

Whoops.


You wrote "Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles." And the study you're quoting says "Even in a unionized environment where work tasks are similar, hourly wages are identical, and tenure dictates promotions, we find that female workers earn $0.89 on the male-worker dollar (in weekly earnings)."


Okay then, in the example environment where tasks, wages, and promotions are rigorously controlled to be equal, how then do men still manage to out-earn women on an average weekly basis? Could it be something like men's greater willingness to volunteer for overtime? If not that, then what? I'd like to see a chart for average number of hours worked per week in that same unionized position for men versus women.
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:04 am

kitplane01 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:

I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.


Well even then he'd be wrong. Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles.


I'm going to guess you like Fox News. "In the U.S., the pay gap between men and women is 21.4 percent, meaning that women earn, on average, about $0.79 for every $1 a man earns. "

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/the ... -new-study

Various airlines in the UK have to report their gender pay gap.

British Airways reports a 35% pay gap (mean wage) or a 10% pay gap (median wage).
Ryanair reports a 72% pay gap (mean wage) or a 67% (median wage).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... le-pilots/

You can argue over the causes of the wage gap, and if done well that's an interesting discussion. But I'm going to believe Fox News, British Airways, and Ryanair that the wage gap is double digits.

Factoid #1: In the UK, the airline industry has a larger wage gap than the economy as a whole (median wage basis).

Factoid #2: British Airways employs an almost equal number of men and women, 46 per cent female, 54 per cent male.

Factoid #3: I made a new topic because I didn't want to thread-drift the old topic.


Not matter how you massage those numbers, it is and remains a fake narrative.

The term "gender pay gap" and the ubiquitous virtue-signalling media frenzy which accompanies it implies that women are paid less for the same job. This simply is not true, and has not been for many decades - at least in more advanced societes.

We can have all the discussions in the world about why women choose not to become pilots, why they choose not to become engineers, why they choose not to become software developers, why they choose not to pursue management positions, why they choose not to work full time, etc. Regardless, in my life experience, it is neither true that a) society makes it more difficult for women to advance in the workplace nor that b) women are paid worse for the same job.

This hasn't been true at least for the last 20-25 years, which is the extent of my personal experience in the working world.

In fact, at least for this long, if anything women seeking a career were treated better than men in very many places. I could talk at length about the extra support, numerous exceptions and outright preferential treatment female students have enjoyed already for decades in STEM academia (from undergraduate all the way through obtaining professorships) in the west, for instance. I have personally witnessed this (massively) preferential treatment at several universities on multiple continents. As another example, I was myself involved in organizing university "girls' camps" to attract young women to technical fields in the second half of the 1990 already (i.e., >20 years ago). Nonetheless, the share of female students, graduates and professionals in these fields remains well below average. Is this society's fault? Men's? What more can one do than basically beg young women on one's knees to choose these fields - and then hand over a degree to them regardless of whether they're competent or not?

Right now I am working at a large employer which has now taken to openly stating internally that female applicants applying for management positions will always be preferred as a matter of principle, no matter their CV or qualifications. Seriously, what more can one do? BTW, my female colleagues themselves are highly embarrased by - and generally opposed to - these measures.

Seriously, what we are witnessing here has nothing to do with injustice or societal dysfunction. It has, however, everything to do with the political left a) trying to re-enact their grandparents' battles from the 1950s and b) trying to (re-)invent (new) vulnerable minorities which need protection. Seriously, the left has won virtually all of their socio-cultural battles during the last 50 years, and justifiedly so. Their children and grandchildren are now on the verge of gambling these achievements away by constantly inventing new, non-existing "gaps" and "injustices" against which a revolution is necessary. Just give it a rest or you'll risk ending up losing the (necessary and justified) progress which was made.
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:15 am

PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Well even then he'd be wrong. Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles.


I'm going to guess you like Fox News. "In the U.S., the pay gap between men and women is 21.4 percent, meaning that women earn, on average, about $0.79 for every $1 a man earns. "

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/the ... -new-study

Various airlines in the UK have to report their gender pay gap.

British Airways reports a 35% pay gap (mean wage) or a 10% pay gap (median wage).
Ryanair reports a 72% pay gap (mean wage) or a 67% (median wage).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... le-pilots/

You can argue over the causes of the wage gap, and if done well that's an interesting discussion. But I'm going to believe Fox News, British Airways, and Ryanair that the wage gap is double digits.

Factoid #1: In the UK, the airline industry has a larger wage gap than the economy as a whole (median wage basis).

Factoid #2: British Airways employs an almost equal number of men and women, 46 per cent female, 54 per cent male.

Factoid #3: I made a new topic because I didn't want to thread-drift the old topic.


Not matter how you massage those numbers, it is and remains a fake narrative.

The term "gender pay gap" and the ubiquitous virtue-signalling media frenzy which accompanies it implies that women are paid less for the same job. This simply is not true, and has not been for many decades - at least in more advanced societes.


Actually, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap". Fox News, British Airlines, Ryanair, the American government, the British government, and the OECD all use the standard definition, though sometimes based on mean wage and sometimes based on median wage. Quoting the OECD "The gender wage gap is defined as the difference between median earnings of men and women relative to median earnings of men."

The thing you're talking about might be defined something like "the difference between median earnings of men and women relative to median earnings of men, given the same job function performed by people with the same skills and qualifications for the same employer". Or something like that. And it's an interesting number. I don't know what this is called, but it's not "wage gap", which is defined as above.

PlaneInsomniac wrote:

We can have all the discussions in the world about why women choose not to become pilots, why they choose not to become engineers, why they choose not to become software developers, why they choose not to pursue management positions, why they choose not to work full time, etc.


Sure. Go ahead. Lots of very smart people have studied this (and come up with several, sometimes conflicting answers).

My original claim was that the wage gap as normally defined is more than 10%, a fact that Fox News, Ryanair, and British Airways agrees with. Also interesting, the wage gap (as normally defined) is larger for the British airline industry than for the British economy as a whole.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:22 am

Phosphorus wrote:
Isn't pilot compensation the largest single labor expense of a typical airline? And pilots being the best-paid airline employees, with exception of executive echelon of management?

If yes, then the elephant in the room suddenly will be noticed.

If a gender pay gap is to be closed, you would need
1) get more women into pilot seats, and/or
2) bridge pay gap between pilots and other airline employees

2 is a massive can of worms.


In the US, airline pilot compensation is determined entirely by longevity, equipment type, and willingness/flexibility to work overtime. If there is indeed a pay gap, it's probably better to take note that physiological/societal roles likely play a larger role than any fault of an employer for bias or discrimination. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

From my first hand impressions, which are limited: it comes down to children. Female pilots (who are not single), are much less likely to be the sole income provider in a home (aka not having stay at home husbands or even part-time employed husbands) compared to their male counterparts. Most have husbands with their own careers (high subset of pilots themselves). I find it relatively common that male pilots have stay at home wives, or wives with less time demanding jobs. Those female pilots with children tend to value schedule flexibility at the expense of making extra money. This drives them to be less willing to pickup additional flying, and potentially forgoing upgrading to captain/ higher paying equipment if it means lower seniority or lengthy commutes. Put more simply, they are usually still the primary caretakers in dual income households. For the male pilots, they are rarely the primary caretaker and not uncommonly the sole income provider. In this scenario, which group would be more likely to prioritize max income potential by sacrificing QOL/ total days off/ability to manipulate schedule? Yes, these just generalizations. But I see these being outsized income generating factors.

Here's the systemic differences. Young girls don't see many women as pilots, and never consider it based off lack of exposure or incorrect assumptions. Most young girls would like to keep the option of having and raising kids at some point in their future, and being away from home so much seems to complicate that vision, and makes the career unattractive. It's a part of why you'll likely never get complete parity in the ratio of male/female ranks. However, In the early phases of a Female pilot career, she might have greater access to scholarships and maybe earlier interview invites due to preferential hiring and increased networking opportunities within female aviation advocacy group participation. Should she decide to have children, unpaid maternity leaves do provide a financial barrier. This is probably the most glaring and easy to address "pay gap".

I feel this is more an evolutionary psychologist's case study. Why are men's egos more attached to how good they are at hunter gathering compared to women's? Why are women more likely to pursue careers in Human interfacing careers and men in Things interfacing careers?
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:26 am

Do male BA captains who fly say 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience get paid more than female BA captains who fly 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience?
Do male BA flight attendants who fly say 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience get paid more than female BA flight attendants who fly 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience?
I would say no to both counts.
So no, there is no wage gap at BA.
Sorry if that hurts your feelings and messes up your political rhetoric. There, there.
Last edited by P1aneMad on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:28 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
From my first hand impressions, which are limited: it comes down to children.


This study has a chart entitled "Women's earning drop significantly after having a child. Men's don't."

Makes you wonder why. And I don't think the whole answer can be parental leave, which is often taken by both genders. Also, the effects are *much* more than would be suggested by missing a month (or a few) of work.



https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:32 am

P1aneMad wrote:
Do male BA captains who fly say 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience get paid more than female BA captains who fly 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience?
Do male BA flight attendants who fly say 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience get paid more female BA flight attendants who fly 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience?
I would say no to both counts.
So no, there is no wage gap at BA.
Sorry if that hurts your feelings and messes up your political rhetoric. There, there.


First, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap". It's not the one used by BA in particular.

I can find the definition used by American Airlines, if that helps. "The gender pay gap is the difference between the average hourly pay of women and men working in an organisation. It is not the same as equal pay. Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value." -- https://www.americanairlines.co.uk/cont ... report.pdf

BA says they have a pay gap. Ryanair says they have a pay gap. And American Airlines says they have a pay gap (at least as to their UK operations).

Seriously, I'm not arguing all men are part of a vast conspiracy to eliminate female pilots. I'm not claiming any particular political view, except to report that BA says that they have a wage gap. And arguing with BA about BA's wage gap seems silly to me.
Last edited by kitplane01 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:37 am

kitplane01 wrote:
First, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap".


The "standard definition" of the wage gap is dishonest and stupid and only used by ideologues or weak people muzzled into obedience by them.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:43 am

aviationaware wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
First, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap".


The "standard definition" of the wage gap is dishonest and stupid and only used by ideologues or weak people muzzled into obedience by them.


American Airlines writes "The gender pay gap is the difference between the average hourly pay of women and men working in an organisation. It is not the same as equal pay. Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value. Having a gender pay gap does not mean that an employer does not pay male and female team members equally where they are working in the same role, nor that they are paying male or female team members unfairly. This is because the gender pay gap looks at the overall average pay rates based on gender, regardless of job role. Gender pay also does not take into account seniority, geographic location, market forces, grade or other factors relevant to rates of pay"

Seriously, if you don't like the definition of "wage gap", then make a new term. I think the one you want is "equal pay" as defined above. But the claim was that the wage gap exceed 10%, which I think I've well and truely shown.

But it is interesting that women in every nation and (I think) every industry make less than men. The causes of that are complex, but if you wanted to talk about that you'd have to find some way to communicate that does not involve insults.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:43 am

kitplane01 wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

I'm going to guess you like Fox News. "In the U.S., the pay gap between men and women is 21.4 percent, meaning that women earn, on average, about $0.79 for every $1 a man earns. "

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/the ... -new-study

Various airlines in the UK have to report their gender pay gap.

British Airways reports a 35% pay gap (mean wage) or a 10% pay gap (median wage).
Ryanair reports a 72% pay gap (mean wage) or a 67% (median wage).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... le-pilots/

You can argue over the causes of the wage gap, and if done well that's an interesting discussion. But I'm going to believe Fox News, British Airways, and Ryanair that the wage gap is double digits.

Factoid #1: In the UK, the airline industry has a larger wage gap than the economy as a whole (median wage basis).

Factoid #2: British Airways employs an almost equal number of men and women, 46 per cent female, 54 per cent male.

Factoid #3: I made a new topic because I didn't want to thread-drift the old topic.


Not matter how you massage those numbers, it is and remains a fake narrative.

The term "gender pay gap" and the ubiquitous virtue-signalling media frenzy which accompanies it implies that women are paid less for the same job. This simply is not true, and has not been for many decades - at least in more advanced societes.


Actually, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap". Fox News, British Airlines, Ryanair, the American government, the British government, and the OECD all use the standard definition, though sometimes based on mean wage and sometimes based on median wage. Quoting the OECD "The gender wage gap is defined as the difference between median earnings of men and women relative to median earnings of men."

PlaneInsomniac wrote:

We can have all the discussions in the world about why women choose not to become pilots, why they choose not to become engineers, why they choose not to become software developers, why they choose not to pursue management positions, why they choose not to work full time, etc.


Sure. Go ahead. Lots of very smart people have studied this (and come up with several, sometimes conflicting answers).

My original claim was that the wage gap as normally defined is more than 10%, a fact that Fox News, Ryanair, and British Airways agrees with. Also interesting, the wage gap (as normally defined) is larger for the British airline industry than for the British economy as a whole.


Actually, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap"

I know that. The point of my post was that this definition per se makes no sense. That's why I wrote "fake narrative" and not "fake numbers".

Compare these two hypothetical headlines:
STUDY: WOMEN IN AIRLINE INDUSTRY SUFFER FROM WAGE GAP
STUDY: WOMEN IN AIRLINE INDUSTRY CHOOSE LOWER-PAYING PROFESSIONS

They're both factually correct. Which one do you think was ideologically designed to elicit emotions?

It is the wording that the entire discussion is based on, not any objective, factual observation of injustice - regardless of whether the "wage gap" statistics are numerically correct by some arbitrary definition.

Sadly, this is the pattern that very many political discussions in the west now follow: On the surface, we claim to be science- and fact-based, but in reality emotions are engineered based on distorted facts and misrepresentations in order to advance (extremely leftist) political agendas. The icing on the cake is that, very often, when one disagrees, the personal attacks / insults / slander immediately follow, sometimes accompanied by irreparable damage to one's career and reputation. We have entered an age of political hysteria and orthodoxy that is almost unparalleled in history. As somebody from a country that has seen several dictatorships, unfortunately, one cannot help but think that this is how it must have started back then. All I can say is that in the 1980s to early 2000s, there was a lot more tolerance for open discussion and expressions of political opinions. What we have today, ironically despite the possibilities of the Internet, are primarily echo chambers in which the public opinion powers that be mutually reinforce their existing, conforming mainstream opinions. The recurring, self-sustaining "wage gap" discussion which is viewed as correct by definition across the entire media landscape, is merely one example of this.
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P1aneMad
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:44 am

kitplane01 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Do male BA captains who fly say 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience get paid more than female BA captains who fly 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience?
Do male BA flight attendants who fly say 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience get paid more female BA flight attendants who fly 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience?
I would say no to both counts.
So no, there is no wage gap at BA.
Sorry if that hurts your feelings and messes up your political rhetoric. There, there.


First, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap". It's not the one used by BA in particular.

I can find the definition used by American Airlines, if that helps. "The gender pay gap is the difference between the average hourly pay of women and men working in an organisation. It is not the same as equal pay. Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value." -- https://www.americanairlines.co.uk/cont ... report.pdf

BA says they have a pay gap. Ryanair says they have a pay gap. And American Airlines says they have a pay gap (at least as to their UK operations).

Seriously, I'm not arguing all men are part of a vast conspiracy to eliminate female pilots. I'm not claiming any particular political view, except to report that BA says that they have a wage gap. And arguing with BA about BA's wage gap seems silly to me.

Dude, when in a hole stop digging!
What YOU are describing is the wage gap between different professions, not between different sexes doing the exact same job!
I bet a pilot has a "wage gap " with a ramper at any airline of the planet!
Including the socialist heavens of Cuba and North Korea.
Also a "wage gap" exists between oil rig worker working in the gulf of Mexico and a McDonald's employee working in Pensacola. Guess what, they are not compensated differently because of their gender.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:50 am

kitplane01 wrote:

Seriously, if you don't like the definition of "wage gap", then make a new term.



No. No new term. We shouldn't use it at all because it is completely nonsensical to compare pay of two groups without context.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:50 am

PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:

Not matter how you massage those numbers, it is and remains a fake narrative.

The term "gender pay gap" and the ubiquitous virtue-signalling media frenzy which accompanies it implies that women are paid less for the same job. This simply is not true, and has not been for many decades - at least in more advanced societes.


Actually, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap". Fox News, British Airlines, Ryanair, the American government, the British government, and the OECD all use the standard definition, though sometimes based on mean wage and sometimes based on median wage. Quoting the OECD "The gender wage gap is defined as the difference between median earnings of men and women relative to median earnings of men."

PlaneInsomniac wrote:

We can have all the discussions in the world about why women choose not to become pilots, why they choose not to become engineers, why they choose not to become software developers, why they choose not to pursue management positions, why they choose not to work full time, etc.


Sure. Go ahead. Lots of very smart people have studied this (and come up with several, sometimes conflicting answers).

My original claim was that the wage gap as normally defined is more than 10%, a fact that Fox News, Ryanair, and British Airways agrees with. Also interesting, the wage gap (as normally defined) is larger for the British airline industry than for the British economy as a whole.


Actually, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap"

I know that. The point of my post was that this definition per se makes no sense. That's why I wrote "fake narrative" and not "fake numbers".

Compare these two hypothetical headlines:
STUDY: WOMEN IN AIRLINE INDUSTRY SUFFER FROM WAGE GAP
STUDY: WOMEN IN AIRLINE INDUSTRY CHOOSE LOWER-PAYING PROFESSIONS

They're both factually correct. Which one do you think was ideologically designed to elicit emotions?

It is the wording that the entire discussion is based on, not any objective, factual observation of injustice - regardless of whether the "wage gap" statistics are numerically correct by some arbitrary definition.

Sadly, this is the pattern that very many political discussions in the west now follow: On the surface, we claim to be science- and fact-based, but in reality emotions are engineered based on distorted facts and misrepresentations in order to advance (extremely leftist) political agendas. The icing on the cake is that, very often, when one disagrees, the personal attacks / insults / slander immediately follow, sometimes accompanied by irreparable damage to one's career and reputation. We have entered an age of political hysteria and orthodoxy that is almost unparalleled in history. As somebody from a country that has seen several dictatorships, unfortunately, one cannot help but think that this is how it must have started back then. All I can say is that in the 1980s to early 2000s, there was a lot more tolerance for open discussion and expressions of political opinions. What we have today, ironically despite the possibilities of the Internet, are primarily echo chambers in which the public opinion powers that be mutually reinforce their existing, conforming mainstream opinions. The recurring, self-sustaining "wage gap" discussion which is viewed as correct by definition across the entire media landscape, is merely one example of this.


Of course people make headlines to generate emotions. And of course many people prefer echo chambers.

So there are two definitions .. wage gap and equal pay. And they both have an interesting story to tell. But the definition of wage gap is not dumb, it really describes an important phenomenon.

Please attribute to me only the things I've actually said. BA pays their average female employee much less than the average male employee. Ryainair even more so. That's a significant thing. I agree it's in part because women are working in jobs that pay less. And that women and men are making different choices and that's affecting their pay. I agree that BA has equal pay (or at least they very much try to).

What did I write that you disagree with?
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:52 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
From my first hand impressions, which are limited: it comes down to children.


This study has a chart entitled "Women's earning drop significantly after having a child. Men's don't."

Makes you wonder why. And I don't think the whole answer can be parental leave, which is often taken by both genders. Also, the effects are *much* more than would be suggested by missing a month (or a few) of work.



https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty



I'm not talking about 1-3 months of having children. I'm talking about the 18 years of prioritizing TIME at home vs work because you are now a mother and the primary caregiver in that tiny human's life. The opposite effect for the man. I'm going to be a father? It's not about me anymore? We need a bigger house/car? I need to ensure I make enough to provide a nice home/school, lifestyle, etc for my child. I better take that upgrade to Captain, pick up extra flying each month etc. Lots of women seem to do the exact opposite because it just means usually more time my baby gets raised by a babysitter/nanny and not me. I'll work minimum required. And as stated before, they rarely are sole income of the household, and can afford the luxury of working less.
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:54 am

P1aneMad wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Do male BA captains who fly say 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience get paid more than female BA captains who fly 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience?
Do male BA flight attendants who fly say 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience get paid more female BA flight attendants who fly 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience?
I would say no to both counts.
So no, there is no wage gap at BA.
Sorry if that hurts your feelings and messes up your political rhetoric. There, there.


First, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap". It's not the one used by BA in particular.

I can find the definition used by American Airlines, if that helps. "The gender pay gap is the difference between the average hourly pay of women and men working in an organisation. It is not the same as equal pay. Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value." -- https://www.americanairlines.co.uk/cont ... report.pdf

BA says they have a pay gap. Ryanair says they have a pay gap. And American Airlines says they have a pay gap (at least as to their UK operations).

Seriously, I'm not arguing all men are part of a vast conspiracy to eliminate female pilots. I'm not claiming any particular political view, except to report that BA says that they have a wage gap. And arguing with BA about BA's wage gap seems silly to me.

Dude, when in a hole stop digging!
What YOU are describing is the wage gap between different professions, not between different sexes doing the exact same job!
I bet a pilot has a "wage gap " with a ramper at any airline of the planet!
Including the socialist heavens of Cuba and North Korea.
Also a "wage gap" exists between oil rig worker working in the gulf of Mexico and a McDonald's employee working in Pensacola. Guess what, they are not compensated differently because of their gender.


Dude, read the definitions. I didn't make them, American Airlines did.

And of course a significant part is that men and women are working different jobs. That's a CAUSE of the wage gap. Now if you could explain why men and women are working different jobs ... they'd give you a Nobel Prize.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:55 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
From my first hand impressions, which are limited: it comes down to children.


This study has a chart entitled "Women's earning drop significantly after having a child. Men's don't."

Makes you wonder why. And I don't think the whole answer can be parental leave, which is often taken by both genders. Also, the effects are *much* more than would be suggested by missing a month (or a few) of work.



https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty



I'm not talking about 1-3 months of having children. I'm talking about the 18 years of prioritizing TIME at home vs work because you are now a mother and the primary caregiver in that tiny human's life. The opposite effect for the man. I'm going to be a father? It's not about me anymore? We need a bigger house/car? I need to ensure I make enough to provide a nice home/school, lifestyle, etc for my child. I better take that upgrade to Captain, pick up extra flying each month etc. Lots of women seem to do the exact opposite because it just means usually more time my baby gets raised by a babysitter/nanny and not me. I'll work minimum required.


We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?
 
PlaneInsomniac
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:58 am

kitplane01 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
First, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap".


The "standard definition" of the wage gap is dishonest and stupid and only used by ideologues or weak people muzzled into obedience by them.


American Airlines writes "The gender pay gap is the difference between the average hourly pay of women and men working in an organisation. It is not the same as equal pay. Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value. Having a gender pay gap does not mean that an employer does not pay male and female team members equally where they are working in the same role, nor that they are paying male or female team members unfairly. This is because the gender pay gap looks at the overall average pay rates based on gender, regardless of job role. Gender pay also does not take into account seniority, geographic location, market forces, grade or other factors relevant to rates of pay"

Seriously, if you don't like the definition of "wage gap", then make a new term. I think the one you want is "equal pay" as defined above. But the claim was that the wage gap exceed 10%, which I think I've well and truely shown.

But it is interesting that women in every nation and (I think) every industry make less than men. The causes of that are complex, but if you wanted to talk about that you'd have to find some way to communicate that does not involve insults.


"Seriously, if you don't like the definition of "wage gap", then make a new term."

See, but that's the point. We can invent apples-to-oranges statistics and incendiary names for them all day long if we want to. It doesn't change the underlying facts either way.

The question is what are we talking about and how are we talking about it. This is a political decision, not a scientific one, no matter how often you mention the term "definition".

According to your own argumentation with respect to "equal pay", we might as well be discussing headlines like these:

STUDY: WOMEN AND MEN ARE PAID EQUALLY
(great, isn't it?)

Instead we are only reading:

STUDY: WOMEN SUFFER FROM WAGE GAP
(based on a non-sensical discussion of an apples-to-oranges "wage gap")

Amazingly, both headlines are based on the same underlying set of data. Evidently, one can always conjure up societal problem out of thin air by "defining" a non-sensical comparative number.
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 am

PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

The "standard definition" of the wage gap is dishonest and stupid and only used by ideologues or weak people muzzled into obedience by them.


American Airlines writes "The gender pay gap is the difference between the average hourly pay of women and men working in an organisation. It is not the same as equal pay. Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value. Having a gender pay gap does not mean that an employer does not pay male and female team members equally where they are working in the same role, nor that they are paying male or female team members unfairly. This is because the gender pay gap looks at the overall average pay rates based on gender, regardless of job role. Gender pay also does not take into account seniority, geographic location, market forces, grade or other factors relevant to rates of pay"

Seriously, if you don't like the definition of "wage gap", then make a new term. I think the one you want is "equal pay" as defined above. But the claim was that the wage gap exceed 10%, which I think I've well and truely shown.

But it is interesting that women in every nation and (I think) every industry make less than men. The causes of that are complex, but if you wanted to talk about that you'd have to find some way to communicate that does not involve insults.


"Seriously, if you don't like the definition of "wage gap", then make a new term."

See, but that's the point. We can invent apples-to-oranges statistics and incendiary names for them all day long if we want to. It doesn't change the underlying facts either way.

The question is what are we talking about and how are we talking about it. This is a political decision, not a scientific one, no matter how often you mention the term "definition".

According to your own argumentation with respect to "equal pay", we might as well be discussing headlines like these:

STUDY: WOMEN AND MEN ARE PAID EQUALLY
(great, isn't it?)

Instead we are only reading:

STUDY: WOMEN SUFFER FROM WAGE GAP
(based on a non-sensical discussion of an apples-to-oranges "wage gap")

Amazingly, both headlines are based on the same underlying set of data. Evidently, one can always conjure up societal problem out of thin air by "defining" a non-sensical comparative number.


Women make less than men in every nation and (I think) every industry. One might want to measure the difference. Luckily we have a definition for this. And the resulting number *is* interesting. It's not nonsensical. It says something about the world.

If you want to argue that women making less than men on average is not a societal problem that's your right, but having a measurement of the difference seems reasonable.

I'm sorry that people write headlines that are misleading.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:07 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

This study has a chart entitled "Women's earning drop significantly after having a child. Men's don't."

Makes you wonder why. And I don't think the whole answer can be parental leave, which is often taken by both genders. Also, the effects are *much* more than would be suggested by missing a month (or a few) of work.



https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty



I'm not talking about 1-3 months of having children. I'm talking about the 18 years of prioritizing TIME at home vs work because you are now a mother and the primary caregiver in that tiny human's life. The opposite effect for the man. I'm going to be a father? It's not about me anymore? We need a bigger house/car? I need to ensure I make enough to provide a nice home/school, lifestyle, etc for my child. I better take that upgrade to Captain, pick up extra flying each month etc. Lots of women seem to do the exact opposite because it just means usually more time my baby gets raised by a babysitter/nanny and not me. I'll work minimum required.


We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?


"We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?"

See, that is a discussion we can have. It is a reasonable question to ask, without having to resort to a misleading artificial "wage gap" figure, which is being hyped up to distract from the fact that such a thing does not actually exist.

If you want to know the answer to your question, feel free to ask somebody - in fact, anybody - who is older and has a family already. I am sure the answer will surprise you :D

In fact, come back here in 10 years, and then we'll talk :D
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P1aneMad
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:11 am

kitplane01 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

First, that's not the standard definition of "wage gap". It's not the one used by BA in particular.

I can find the definition used by American Airlines, if that helps. "The gender pay gap is the difference between the average hourly pay of women and men working in an organisation. It is not the same as equal pay. Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value." -- https://www.americanairlines.co.uk/cont ... report.pdf

BA says they have a pay gap. Ryanair says they have a pay gap. And American Airlines says they have a pay gap (at least as to their UK operations).

Seriously, I'm not arguing all men are part of a vast conspiracy to eliminate female pilots. I'm not claiming any particular political view, except to report that BA says that they have a wage gap. And arguing with BA about BA's wage gap seems silly to me.

Dude, when in a hole stop digging!
What YOU are describing is the wage gap between different professions, not between different sexes doing the exact same job!
I bet a pilot has a "wage gap " with a ramper at any airline of the planet!
Including the socialist heavens of Cuba and North Korea.
Also a "wage gap" exists between oil rig worker working in the gulf of Mexico and a McDonald's employee working in Pensacola. Guess what, they are not compensated differently because of their gender.


Dude, read the definitions. I didn't make them, American Airlines did.

And of course a significant part is that men and women are working different jobs. That's a CAUSE of the wage gap. Now if you could explain why men and women are working different jobs ... they'd give you a Nobel Prize.

American Airlines is a company flying people for a living. It is not a global authority of what a "wage gap" actually is.
So we are discussing why they are compensating differently different professionals and why that is NOT because of their sex.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:12 am

PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?



See, that is a discussion we can have. It is a reasonable question to ask, without having to resort to a misleading artificial "wage gap" figure, which is being hyped up to distract from the fact that such a thing does not actually exist.


Is "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" a reasonable question to ask? Can we have *that* discussion?
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:18 am

kitplane01 wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?



See, that is a discussion we can have. It is a reasonable question to ask, without having to resort to a misleading artificial "wage gap" figure, which is being hyped up to distract from the fact that such a thing does not actually exist.


Is "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" a reasonable question to ask? Can we have *that* discussion?

Already asked and answered:

P1aneMad wrote:
Do male BA captains who fly say 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience get paid more than female BA captains who fly 900 hours a year and have 5000 hours of experience?
Do male BA flight attendants who fly say 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience get paid more female BA flight attendants who fly 900 hours a year and have 3 years of experience?
I would say no to both counts.
So no, there is no wage gap at BA.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:22 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

This study has a chart entitled "Women's earning drop significantly after having a child. Men's don't."

Makes you wonder why. And I don't think the whole answer can be parental leave, which is often taken by both genders. Also, the effects are *much* more than would be suggested by missing a month (or a few) of work.



https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty



I'm not talking about 1-3 months of having children. I'm talking about the 18 years of prioritizing TIME at home vs work because you are now a mother and the primary caregiver in that tiny human's life. The opposite effect for the man. I'm going to be a father? It's not about me anymore? We need a bigger house/car? I need to ensure I make enough to provide a nice home/school, lifestyle, etc for my child. I better take that upgrade to Captain, pick up extra flying each month etc. Lots of women seem to do the exact opposite because it just means usually more time my baby gets raised by a babysitter/nanny and not me. I'll work minimum required.


We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?

DNA. Then Evolution. They made the rule. We enforce it on ourselves or we don't. Society sure doesn't in 2019. Males desire to mate with as many partners as possible. Females to select a good Male and raise a child. Males fought for supremacy for Females against other Males. We evolved into societies, and moved to monogamy because it provided less violence over mating competition and stability for rearing the next generation. Men by and large were the defenders, hunters. Women the caretakers. Men are more competitive, driven for status and power. Women more instinctively empathetic and caring. Why? For the propagation of the species. Can you see why career fields have natural disbursements the way they do? Why men's egos are tied more to status and power (in 2019 occupation and income?) Women to physical appearance and relationships? Maybe that explains your pay/wage gap thingy?

It's 2019, we can challenge nature. For some people, hey I'm sure it works fine. Just don't expect the majority to follow. That would be denying that there are physical and physiological differences between genders, and that we do not inherit natural instincts. No amount of advocacy will make the majority of mechanics women or elementary school teachers men.
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PlaneInsomniac
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:31 am

kitplane01 wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?



See, that is a discussion we can have. It is a reasonable question to ask, without having to resort to a misleading artificial "wage gap" figure, which is being hyped up to distract from the fact that such a thing does not actually exist.


Is "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" a reasonable question to ask? Can we have *that* discussion?


They don't "make less" by any commonsense use of the term, which you have conceded yourself.

There is a statistical difference when using a nonsensical apples-to-oranges comparison. You arbitrarily pick a company or an "industry", but then calculate a numerical average across different professions and numbers of hours worked. This is not the same as saying they "make less". A good example of how language is misused to distort facts.

A much more reasonable comparison would be to look at the same professions and hours worked, across muliple companies or industries. Obviously, this would not fit the political agenda you are pursuing, regardless of the relative utility of these comparisons.

So, if you want to have the discussion "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" - the answer is: They don't. You have essentiall conceded that yourself.

On the other hand, if you want to have the discussion why a made-up figure that some sociologist with a political agenda has termed "wage gap" counterfactually indicates an inequality that does not actually exist, I think you will find little interest.
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PlaneInsomniac
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:32 am

kitplane01 wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

We agree. Now why are women the caregivers and men the bread earners? Who made that rule (and enforces it in 2019)?



See, that is a discussion we can have. It is a reasonable question to ask, without having to resort to a misleading artificial "wage gap" figure, which is being hyped up to distract from the fact that such a thing does not actually exist.


Is "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" a reasonable question to ask? Can we have *that* discussion?


They don't "make less" by any commonsense use of the term, which you have conceded yourself.

There is a statistical difference when using a nonsensical apples-to-oranges comparison. You arbitrarily pick a company or an "industry", but then calculate a numerical average across different professions and numbers of hours worked. This is not the same as saying they "make less". A good example of how language is misused to distort facts.

A much more reasonable comparison would be to look at the same professions and hours worked, across muliple companies or industries. Obviously, this would not fit the political agenda you are pursuing, regardless of the relative utility of these comparisons.

So, if you want to have the discussion "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" - the answer is: They don't. You have essentiall conceded that yourself.

On the other hand, if you want to have the discussion why a made-up figure that some sociologist with a political agenda has termed "wage gap" counterfactually indicates an inequality that does not actually exist, I think you will find little interest.
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:07 am

Also bear in mind that no company in their right mind would say they didn't have a wage gap to a media reporter (who are largely identitarian activists these days) for fear of retribution, boycotts, bad press and more from the identitarian bullies on the left. Also, bear in mind that both PR and HR departments in most companies these days are largely females who openly identify themselves to be feminists.
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Magog
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:16 am

kitplane01 wrote:
If you want to argue that women making less than men on average is not a societal problem that's your right...

Well, if women work fewer hours (men work roughly 5 hours more per week on average), choose to work in lower paying, but more fulfilling, fields and work in less dangerous jobs, it stands to reason that they would earn less.

Now here is something that may blow your mind. Many women like that arrangement. It certainly seems like a fair trade.
 
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:21 pm

I was listening to a CEO talking about this the other day. His company mainly employs engineers. He does his best to have more women in his company, not as a PR move but because he thinks they bring new ideas. He decided recently to have a look at the salaries vs positions of men and women in his company, to correct an eventual wage gap. He had to increase the salary of most women... In his opinion, women simply asked less money during interviews.
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c933103
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:51 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Dude, read the definitions. I didn't make them, American Airlines did.

And of course a significant part is that men and women are working different jobs. That's a CAUSE of the wage gap. Now if you could explain why men and women are working different jobs ... they'd give you a Nobel Prize.

There are only a few possibilities. Social. Cultural. Natural. Desire. Stereotypical perception on work choice. None of them can be changed by individual companies. Unless you want companies start involuntarily training female flight attendance into pilots and then training male pilots into flight attendance, else naming specific companies is not going to help the situation.
Last edited by c933103 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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trpmb6
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
I was listening to a CEO talking about this the other day. His company mainly employs engineers. He does his best to have more women in his company, not as a PR move but because he thinks they bring new ideas. He decided recently to have a look at the salaries vs positions of men and women in his company, to correct an eventual wage gap. He had to increase the salary of most women... In his opinion, women simply asked less money during interviews.


While anecdotal, I've also heard similar things. I can tell you from personal experience that many women are less likely to negotiate on terms when they interview. And as noted above, many are less likely to work overtime hours. (Even in a salaried position that will still play a factor in raise cycles).

The correct answer to all of this, though, is biology. Post by Cactusjuba sums it up well enough. To be fair, there are some societal norms that do reinforce the biological aspect. We tend to take on the gender role our parents took on. Makes sense, they were our primary example for shaping who we are. But it doesn't change our animalistic instincts. You don't have to look far in the animal kingdom to see that, in general, the female is the primary caretaker and males largely leave them once the deed is done. Female bears will even fight a former mate to keep them away from her cubs in territorial disputes. Not saying we should embrace that model though, I kind of like having my kiddos around.


Edit to add: To anybody out there who is ever negotiating something. You never take the first offer. You always negotiate. They expect you to negotiate so they literally offer you less than you're worth to them on the first swag. They've already invested time and money in pursuing you, they're not going to walk away from the table. Worst they will do is offer you the same terms as "that's final". And I can tell you, again from personal experience, when they say "that is final" there is sometimes still some wiggle room if you know how to negotiate in the right market conditions. Never ever sell yourself short. Or if you do, don't blame society.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:47 pm

PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:


See, that is a discussion we can have. It is a reasonable question to ask, without having to resort to a misleading artificial "wage gap" figure, which is being hyped up to distract from the fact that such a thing does not actually exist.


Is "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" a reasonable question to ask? Can we have *that* discussion?


They don't "make less" by any commonsense use of the term, which you have conceded yourself.


No, I didn't. Not once.

Actually, what I wrote is "British Airways reports a 35% pay gap (mean wage) or a 10% pay gap (median wage)". With a citation.

I don't know how to be more clear. I'm out.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:37 pm

The issue for airlines and pilots comes down to the fact that there are more male pilots who have been in seat for longer than the female pilots. Due to this very simple fact, there will be a persistent and insurmountable "wage gap". The math is simple, due the professions wages being driven by seniority, until there are women at the same seniority percentage levels (in other words, for the number of women pilots, there is a similar number at each seniority level) the wage gap will exist. And that is without any bias any which way.

The same can be said across many other professions however there is not the straightforward contract pay and so many other factors can be at play.
And regardless of all this, the biologic fact that currently only biologically born women can bear children (just wait, someday it will be possible to create a womb in a male...) there is no way, across the greater average, to not have some type of wage gap due to less time in position simply due to the fact that children take time from the person.

(And no I do not think it is unfair nor necessary to somehow compensate for this. You may of course feel differently.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:31 pm

If there really was the same work performed by women for 10%, 20%, 30% less cost, wouldn’t any rational employer hire women and enjoy a cost advantage? Competition is wonderful working out these differences.

Second, there’s a huge death gap on the job. Men are killed on the job at 13 times women’s rates. So, fix that.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Magog
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:42 pm

The OP could have learned something had they stuck around. But apparently facts are less important to them than desired beliefs.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:51 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Actually, what I wrote is "British Airways reports a 35% pay gap (mean wage) or a 10% pay gap (median wage)". With a citation.

I don't know how to be more clear. I'm out.


You're complaining about wage differential of male and female employees of companies covered by a collective bargaining agreement (or equivalent). CBA's don't have provisions for gender. As explained to you, the reason for the pay gap is because women tend to go into lower paying FA positions whereas men tend to go into pilot positions. There's no wage discrimination here.

If you feel as if women are being blocked from becoming pilots, then please share any data you have. But that's another thread.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
TSS
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:52 pm

Magog wrote:
The OP could have learned something had they stuck around. But apparently facts are less important to them than desired beliefs.


It would appear so- https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1419613
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PlaneInsomniac
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:41 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Is "Why do women who work for British Airways make less than men?" a reasonable question to ask? Can we have *that* discussion?


They don't "make less" by any commonsense use of the term, which you have conceded yourself.


No, I didn't. Not once.

Actually, what I wrote is "British Airways reports a 35% pay gap (mean wage) or a 10% pay gap (median wage)". With a citation.

I don't know how to be more clear. I'm out.


For the record, in fact you conceded several times in this thread that men and women generally receive equal pay for equal jobs, and that the hypothetical "pay gap" is due to different career choices:

kitplane01 wrote:
And of course a significant part is that men and women are working different jobs. That's a CAUSE of the wage gap.


kitplane01 wrote:
Equal pay requires a comparison between two team members (one male, one female) who are working in the same or similar jobs or carrying out work of equal value. Having a gender pay gap does not mean that an employer does not pay male and female team members equally where they are working in the same role, nor that they are paying male or female team members unfairly.


kitplane01 wrote:
I agree it's in part because women are working in jobs that pay less. And that women and men are making different choices and that's affecting their pay. I agree that BA has equal pay (or at least they very much try to).


In fact, your own linked source expressly states that the "pay gap" is caused by many more men than women working as pilots. So there you have it: an apples-to-oranges comparison.

What we are witnessing here is the very definition of a circular discussion, as is so often encountered when confronting people with a (left-wing) political agenda with objective facts.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
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DL717
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Re: Gender Wage Gap in Airlines

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:32 pm

There’s no gender based pay scales at any airline, except maybe the Middle East. Thus, no pay gap other than that related to personal choice in schedule. A woman pilot with the same schedule and qualifications as their male counterparts will make the same money. Period. Average income is irrelevant. What, you going to pay a flight attendant as much as a ramper for flight attendant?
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