Magog wrote:

zkojq wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:

These conspiracy theories are sad.

Remember when the US Government told us that Iraq had train based mobile weapons labs. Remember how that turned out? Remember when Jacques Chirac called BS and was completely and utterly vindicated.

Clearly the lesson here is that we should bow down to whatever the US Government says is happening in the middle east. We certainly should not think critically for ourselves on such matters...

There is a difference between not bowing down and assuming alternative facts.

I'm not assuming anything and I want in investigation that is independent. Until then I refuse to take the word of the US and other regional powers who want war as anything more than speculation/propaganda.

zkojq wrote:

Magog wrote:

zkojq wrote:

Remember when the US Government told us that Iraq had train based mobile weapons labs. Remember how that turned out? Remember when Jacques Chirac called BS and was completely and utterly vindicated.

Clearly the lesson here is that we should bow down to whatever the US Government says is happening in the middle east. We certainly should not think critically for ourselves on such matters...

There is a difference between not bowing down and assuming alternative facts.

I'm not assuming anything and I want in investigation that is independent. Until then I refuse to take the word of the US and other regional powers who want war as anything more than speculation/propaganda.

Others in this thread have made assumptions.

slider wrote:

the Iran deal was BS to begin with (and even lefties have to admit it),

Absolutely not. The Nuclear Deal was a great deal. Every independent expert said it stopped Iran from gaining nuclear weapons, and brought them into the international trade community where ongoing trade, tourism and connections with the West would've caused them to liberalise and moderate. The only people who hated it were Israelis, Saudis and Neocons who want their people in charge in Tehran so they can gain total control over the Gulf and the world's energy supply.

If the deal had remained in place Iran would now be buying Western products and being exposed to Western culture. Dozens of western airlines would've flying into Iran bringing tourists in to see that Iranians are not evildoers, and Iranians would've been exploring the world seeing that their own assumptions about life outside their country may be wrong. Domestic political pressure would have started seeing some of the more extreme laws in the country being changed (possibly the headscarf law). Iranian oil would be plentiful on the market and be reducing the influence of Saudi Arabia, the real backward state that actually funds extremism. Neocons would be losing influence in the West as everyone could see how much nonsense they were spreading about the supposedly evil Iranians was totally false.

Now, as a direct result of a chain of events that started with the US pulling out of the Nuclear deal, we are facing the real prospect of a violent conflict in Iran. I still don't think a full scale war is likely as China, which has a real strategic imperative to ensure that not every country in the Gulf is under the US sphere of influence, will step in and prevent that from happening. Even if it means stationing some troops in Iran to ward off a potential US attack. They have indicated they'll be ignoring any further sanctions or actions the US may take over this tanker "attack", and will continue to trade and invest in Iran. Which is a crucial link in the Belt and Road initiative.

New pictures have been released by the US military, taken from an helicopter:



This picture is even funny for me. If you want to remove a bomb, mine whatsoever that hasn’t exploded, wouldn’t you send one guy to remove it (maybe selected by drawing straws...)?!?! Instead of this, this picture reminds me of a typical construction site where one guy works with a shovel and the others just watch... This team is either courageous or stupid. But at least they are wearing life jackets...

Slate has nailed it with the observation:
Trump Has Brilliantly Cornered Himself Where He’s Now Demanding Iran Abide by a Deal He Already Reneged On

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... ehran.html

We have gone from grainy images to pin sharp pictures.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48671319

Spar wrote:

LMP737 wrote:

You don't have to take Global Research's word for anything, every one of those false flag stories was sourced with a link to a supporting article and there are 68 of them. The one you pointed out as suspect has a source (https://www.amazon.com/Way-Deception-Vi ... 938&sr=1-1) but since I've never heard of that item before and I don't know anything about the author of that book, sure, let's cross that one off. .

Oh, so you admit some of the stuff on that site is mindless drivel no supported by facts.

mham001 wrote:

Europeans, Hillary and a Democratic administration started a the worst ongoing conflict in the world today, based on lies and French corruption, beginning a humanitarian crisis we cannot even imagine. If you are going to point fingers at one party, get used to having that thrown back in your face, you and Europeans have lost the right to throw stones about "starting wars". And why does your timeline begin *after* Vietnam?

t.

The worst ongoing conflict is Iraq, who started that completely on their own?

LMP737 wrote:

Spar wrote:

LMP737 wrote:

You don't have to take Global Research's word for anything, every one of those false flag stories was sourced with a link to a supporting article and there are 68 of them. The one you pointed out as suspect has a source (https://www.amazon.com/Way-Deception-Vi ... 938&sr=1-1) but since I've never heard of that item before and I don't know anything about the author of that book, sure, let's cross that one off. .

Oh, so you admit some of the stuff on that site is mindless drivel no supported by facts.

Global Research is not my site, I don't care about them one way or another so I have nothing to admit. Do you have some obsession with Global Research or are you just trying to avoid the subject of conversation?

That site listed 68 false flag operations and provided links to sources for each story. Even if the site is operated by Adolph Hitler's grandmother the list of false flag operations, with citations is still pertinent to this conversation.

You do understand what citations are don't you?

readytotaxi wrote:

We have gone from grainy images to pin sharp pictures.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48671319

Those Yamaha engines look brand new (you can sort of see the XTO Swoosh on the side). I wonder how 'Iran' got brand new outboards past the sanctions. I wish the 'high resolution' picture was a bit higher resolution....

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

johns624 wrote:

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

Since there has been no military response, it seems as if the United States isn’t any more upset than other countries.

LMP737 wrote:

mham001 wrote:

Europeans, Hillary and a Democratic administration started a the worst ongoing conflict in the world today, based on lies and French corruption, beginning a humanitarian crisis we cannot even imagine. If you are going to point fingers at one party, get used to having that thrown back in your face, you and Europeans have lost the right to throw stones about "starting wars". And why does your timeline begin *after* Vietnam?

t.

The worst ongoing conflict is Iraq, who started that completely on their own?

Keywords Einstein - "ongoing...today"

But either way, it wasn't Trump, was it?

Magog wrote:

johns624 wrote:

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

Since there has been no military response, it seems as if the United States isn’t any more upset than other countries.

Military responses take time. Look at the buildup for Desert Storm.

[twoid][/twoid]

Magog wrote:

johns624 wrote:

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

Since there has been no military response, it seems as if the United States isn’t any more upset than other countries.

There were no ‘malign actions cannot continue’ lines out of the Japanese foreign ministry today....only Mike Pompeo.

johns624 wrote:

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

That’s something that I had asked myself as well. I read, but maybe someone else knows better, this strait is important for the oil supplies to Asia. Furthermore, the tankers were operated by a German and a Norwegian company, IIRC. Why no European support ships like during the „tanker war“? Instead of this literary no reaction from the European side. I guess they think it’s just a dent in two tankers, it‘ll buff out.

... and I think the current administration is right: there is no need to rush into a war. The sanctions and the way they impose them on the rest of the world will work soon.

If this attack was done by Iran, it shows that Iran reacts like a cat pushed into a corner.

Spar wrote:

Slate has nailed it with the observation:
Trump Has Brilliantly Cornered Himself Where He’s Now Demanding Iran Abide by a Deal He Already Reneged On

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... ehran.html

This is so obvious it hurts that is has to be stated. But that's how stupid/senile Trump is.

Aesma wrote:

Spar wrote:

Slate has nailed it with the observation:
Trump Has Brilliantly Cornered Himself Where He’s Now Demanding Iran Abide by a Deal He Already Reneged On

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... ehran.html

This is so obvious it hurts that is has to be stated. But that's how stupid/senile Trump is.

You couldn't make this shit up!

And now a rocket attack in Iraq...

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -companies

johns624 wrote:

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

Cause they are not convinced that it is Iran who has attacked and know all too well US history of false flag operations ...

Mortyman wrote:

johns624 wrote:

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

Cause they are not convinced that it is Iran who has attacked and know all too well US history of false flag operations ...

Unfortunately, true.

Aesma wrote:

Spar wrote:

Slate has nailed it with the observation:
Trump Has Brilliantly Cornered Himself Where He’s Now Demanding Iran Abide by a Deal He Already Reneged On

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... ehran.html

This is so obvious it hurts that is has to be stated. But that's how stupid/senile Trump is.

So that is what a "stable genius" does!

Let it be a lesson to all of us...

Mortyman wrote:

johns624 wrote:

Why aren't the countries who owned the tankers and those whose products they carried as upset as the US seems to be? I thought Trump didn't want us to be the world's policeman anymore. We don't even need the oil...

Cause they are not convinced that it is Iran who has attacked and know all too well US history of false flag operations ...

My point exactly. Not all Americans believe in "3D chess", as practiced by the current administration. Maybe checkers...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-navy-p ... 53112.html

Not sure why it's filed under finance.yahoo....

I doubt there is much more evidence that can be uncovered when dealing with a mine. They sort of do what they're supposed to do and blow up. leaving very little remnants of what they once were. It's why the one that was removed is so important because it would have been able to provide details to who did it.

trpmb6 wrote:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-navy-presents-evidence-iran-110353112.html

Not sure why it's filed under finance.yahoo....

I doubt there is much more evidence that can be uncovered when dealing with a mine. They sort of do what they're supposed to do and blow up. leaving very little remnants of what they once were. It's why the one that was removed is so important because it would have been able to provide details to who did it.

The Navy says they got biometrics on whoever's handprints were on and next to the magnet, but we will see what good that does.


14 ships per day pass through the straIght of Hormuz on average. So far 6 ships in 6 weeks have been attacked. 4 on May 12, 2 on June 13. These haven't been major attacks, but very strategically limited.

Iran may be behind the attacks, or another state actor but to what end? 400 + ships have sailed through the Gulf unscathed. , and on these 6 ships most of the Oil cargo has been fine.

casinterest wrote:

Iran may be behind the attacks, or another state actor but to what end? 400 + ships have sailed through the Gulf unscathed. , and on these 6 ships most of the Oil cargo has been fine.

Insurance and oil prices will both go up.

johns624 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Iran may be behind the attacks, or another state actor but to what end? 400 + ships have sailed through the Gulf unscathed. , and on these 6 ships most of the Oil cargo has been fine.

Insurance and oil prices will both go up.

Not really.

Oil prices are being hammered right now due to the overproduction of Shale deposits across the globe, and the oncoming alternative energy boom.

Insurance will only complicate matters for the Mid East.

mham001 wrote:

LMP737 wrote:

mham001 wrote:

Europeans, Hillary and a Democratic administration started a the worst ongoing conflict in the world today, based on lies and French corruption, beginning a humanitarian crisis we cannot even imagine. If you are going to point fingers at one party, get used to having that thrown back in your face, you and Europeans have lost the right to throw stones about "starting wars". And why does your timeline begin *after* Vietnam?

t.

The worst ongoing conflict is Iraq, who started that completely on their own?

Keywords Einstein - "ongoing...today"

But either way, it wasn't Trump, was it?

Maybe you meant Afghanistan? Longest [ongoing] war in US history. But that wasn't the Europeans, Hillary or the dems either

mham001 wrote:

Keywords Einstein - "ongoing...today"

But either way, it wasn't Trump, was it?

If you are referring to Iraq here are some links to show that conflict is alive and well.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKCN1SY0PM

https://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/u-s- ... s-in-iraq/

LMP737 wrote:

mham001 wrote:

Keywords Einstein - "ongoing...today"

But either way, it wasn't Trump, was it?

If you are referring to Iraq here are some links to show that conflict is alive and well.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKCN1SY0PM

https://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/u-s- ... s-in-iraq/

What are you talking about? We freed Iraq and did everything right. It was mission accomplished in 2003! Iran would be so lucky to have a repeat.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48700965

One Triton down

Aesma wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48700965

One Triton down

That's an interesting escalation. Looks like Iran really wants to play rough.

To be fair, the US is poking Iran with drone flights.

BestWestern wrote:

To be fair, the US is poking Iran with drone flights.

To be fair, the US may poke back with more than drone flights since the drone was shot down instead of being escorted away.

BestWestern wrote:

To be fair, the US is poking Iran with drone flights.

Russia flys bear bombers just off the US coast all the time. How many have we shot down?

If this drone was outside their airspace, which it seems it was, this is a heck of an escalation for an “innocent nation”.

Seb... maybe it was the Somalis or IS that shot it down. Lol...

N757ST wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

To be fair, the US is poking Iran with drone flights.

Russia flys bear bombers just off the US coast all the time. How many have we shot down?

If this drone was outside their airspace, which it seems it was, this is a heck of an escalation for an “innocent nation”.

Seb... maybe it was the Somalis or IS that shot it down. Lol...

Drones are expensive, unmanned toys. Don’t want them shot down? Don’t fly them halfway across the world in bad neighborhoods.

Aaron747 wrote:

N757ST wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

To be fair, the US is poking Iran with drone flights.

Russia flys bear bombers just off the US coast all the time. How many have we shot down?

If this drone was outside their airspace, which it seems it was, this is a heck of an escalation for an “innocent nation”.

Seb... maybe it was the Somalis or IS that shot it down. Lol...

Drones are expensive, unmanned toys. Don’t want them shot down? Don’t fly them halfway across the world in bad neighborhoods.

Then Iran won't complain when the US comes knocking on the door for an explanation of why their property was destroyed over international waters, and sets up permanent operations in those waters?

casinterest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

N757ST wrote:

Russia flys bear bombers just off the US coast all the time. How many have we shot down?

If this drone was outside their airspace, which it seems it was, this is a heck of an escalation for an “innocent nation”.

Seb... maybe it was the Somalis or IS that shot it down. Lol...

Drones are expensive, unmanned toys. Don’t want them shot down? Don’t fly them halfway across the world in bad neighborhoods.

Then Iran won't complain when the US comes knocking on the door for an explanation of why their property was destroyed over international waters, and sets up permanent operations in those waters?

‘International waters’ is a lazy ruse when those waters are the Persian Gulf. Emphasis on Persian, from Iran’s perspective...no?

N757ST wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

To be fair, the US is poking Iran with drone flights.

Russia flys bear bombers just off the US coast all the time. How many have we shot down?

If this drone was outside their airspace, which it seems it was, this is a heck of an escalation for an “innocent nation”.

Seb... maybe it was the Somalis or IS that shot it down. Lol...

Russia IS just off the US coast.

Aaron747 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Drones are expensive, unmanned toys. Don’t want them shot down? Don’t fly them halfway across the world in bad neighborhoods.

Then Iran won't complain when the US comes knocking on the door for an explanation of why their property was destroyed over international waters, and sets up permanent operations in those waters?

‘International waters’ is a lazy ruse when those waters are the Persian Gulf. Emphasis on Persian, from Iran’s perspective...no?

International waters are international waters. Russia parks SLBM off our coast and flys bombers inside the ADIZ all the time, how many have we shot down?

Why do you think automatically it was really in international waters?

Olddog wrote:

Why do you think automatically it was really in international waters?

Why do you think Automatically it was ok to shoot it down?

Why was the US flying a drone? To provoke.

Of course the US will say it was in international waters.

why is the US playing in the gulf anyway? The us complained that Venezuela isn’t in Russia’s hemisphere. Iran certainly isn’t in the US’s.

Go build a wall, and keep out of the gulf.

Aaron747 wrote:

N757ST wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

To be fair, the US is poking Iran with drone flights.

Russia flys bear bombers just off the US coast all the time. How many have we shot down?

If this drone was outside their airspace, which it seems it was, this is a heck of an escalation for an “innocent nation”.

Seb... maybe it was the Somalis or IS that shot it down. Lol...

Drones are expensive, unmanned toys. Don’t want them shot down? Don’t fly them halfway across the world in bad neighborhoods.

Want to know a good way to get your toys broken? Break mine and see what happens... international airspace is just that, you can not legally attack an aircraft if it doesn’t enter YOUR air space...not a hard concept to understand.

This is going to get bad real quick, I guarantee y’all. The straight is too vital to the worlds oil supply to allow a rogue nation to threaten the free flowing trade of it. How far this escalates... lets just say is in Iran’s hands right now. Iran and Iraq were at war for 10 years, Iraq Incase’s Kuwait and then got clobbered over three weeks. Now Iran wants to play after being subjected to various embargoes to try and force their way?

It’s not going to play out well for any in the region.

Look at it from Iran’s perspective. They signed a global nuclear deal. US withdraws, adds embargoes, doubles down on these embargoes.

The US flies drones in their airspace.

I’m not here to fly the Iranian flag. But there is no need for Conflict here.

N757ST wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Then Iran won't complain when the US comes knocking on the door for an explanation of why their property was destroyed over international waters, and sets up permanent operations in those waters?

‘International waters’ is a lazy ruse when those waters are the Persian Gulf. Emphasis on Persian, from Iran’s perspective...no?

International waters are international waters. Russia parks SLBM off our coast and flys bombers inside the ADIZ all the time, how many have we shot down?

Realpolitik tit-for-tat. Neither side shoots down anything other than Iranian and Korean airliners.

BestWestern wrote:

Why was the US flying a drone? To provoke.

Of course the US will say it was in international waters.

why is the US playing in the gulf anyway? The us complained that Venezuela isn’t in Russia’s hemisphere. Iran certainly isn’t in the US’s.

Go build a wall, and keep out of the gulf.

The United States has a duty to protect its interests around the world, and in this case US companies and citizens are highly involved in shipping through that water way. If you think that the US is going to allow another country to threaten its ventures in the region you’re delusional.

Why were the US flying drones in Yemen last week?

For what purpose?

N757ST wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

Why was the US flying a drone? To provoke.

Of course the US will say it was in international waters.

why is the US playing in the gulf anyway? The us complained that Venezuela isn’t in Russia’s hemisphere. Iran certainly isn’t in the US’s.

Go build a wall, and keep out of the gulf.

The United States has a duty to protect its interests around the world, and in this case US companies and citizens are highly involved in shipping through that water way. If you think that the US is going to allow another country to threaten its ventures in the region you’re delusional.

Ah, I get it. Oil. Silly me