Stickpusher
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MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:24 am

As the title suggests...

"The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is expected to name suspects and announce charges for the first time."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48685584

Links in the article to other aspects of the story.
 
IWMBH
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Re: BBC - "MH17 plane crash: Investigators 'expected to name four suspects'"

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:18 am

Some suspects are now named and the place of the court (the Netherlands) and the date are announced.

https://nos.nl/liveblog/2289672-rechtsz ... rland.html (Source in Dutch)
 
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Dutchy
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MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:26 pm

Dutch prosecutors are to identify suspects and file the first criminal charges over the 2014 downing of flight MH17 over east Ukraine which killed 298 people in the worst atrocity in five years of war between Ukraine and Russia-backed separatists.

The charges are likely to target members of a Russia-backed separatist movement and may include Russian service personnel who commanded or helped transport the anti-aircraft missile system used to bring down the plane.


Source

NIEUWEGEIN - The Public Prosecution Service is going to prosecute four people for taking down flight MH17. They are suspected of murder. The process must begin on March 9 next year. The suspects are three Russians and one Ukrainian. They are rebel leader Igor Girkin, his right-hand man Sergey Dubinsky, his assistant Oleg Poelatov and garrison commander Leonid Chartsjenko.


Source in Dutch

So we're seeing some progress being made. And good that the case against the first four is brought forward and will be going to trail (by abstinence probably).

I would like to stay this thread on track, so there is no reason to doubt the conclusions of the JIT, that is up to the independent Dutch judge. Russia killed the idea of the international court, so we don't need to discuss that anymore. What is there is that there is a clear link between the shooting down of the MH17 and Russia, 3 Russians and on Ukrainian national will be put on trial and the BUK has been identified as a Russian military one.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ltbewr
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:13 pm

It is unlikely any of those involved will face a criminal tribunal as Russia will protect them. Its too bad some sanctions can't be placed on Russia and the Ukraine for their parts in this mass murder, but politics is more important than justice.
 
Spar
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:30 pm

ltbewr wrote:
It is unlikely any of those involved will face a criminal tribunal as Russia will protect them. Its too bad some sanctions can't be placed on Russia and the Ukraine for their parts in this mass murder, but politics is more important than justice.

Sanctions on Ukraine? What on earth for?
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:35 pm

Yeah - followed this. All of this was known “in social media” by the fall 2014. It’s not clear what was this JIT doing for 5 years. Now they want to talk to those individuals and request Russia for assistance. That as well could have been done all the way back then. And another point just as important - what’s the actual missile story?

Somehow I am not optimistic about uncovering the actual truth.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:40 pm

ltbewr wrote:
It is unlikely any of those involved will face a criminal tribunal as Russia will protect them. Its too bad some sanctions can't be placed on Russia and the Ukraine for their parts in this mass murder, but politics is more important than justice.


There are agreements between EU and Russia, and such things are being done regularly. But, of course, JIT will need to have the proof and win the case in the Russian court. But with what’s been presented so far - “social media” - I doubt it. Do they even have witnesses to anything?
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:42 pm

Spar wrote:
Sanctions on Ukraine? What on earth for?


There isn’t anything to question Ukraine for? Who led the civil plane into the war zone, knowing that other planes have been shot down there? Where’s the air traffic controller? Any recordings of conversations between ATC and MH-17?
 
Spar
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:44 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Unfortunately, it is hard to maintain a serious discussion on this issue; Russia's trolls and paid agents-of-misdirection will be here with yet more distractions and denials in no time at all...

Speaking of the devil:

anrec80 wrote:
There are agreements between EU and Russia, and such things are being done regularly. But, of course, JIT will need to have the proof and win the case in the Russian court. But with what’s been presented so far - “social media” - I doubt it. Do they even have witnesses to anything?


and


anrec80 wrote:
There isn’t anything to question Ukraine for? Who led the civil plane into the war zone, knowing that other planes have been shot down there? Where’s the air traffic controller? Any recordings of conversations between ATC and MH-17?
 
petertenthije
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Re: BBC - "MH17 plane crash: Investigators 'expected to name four suspects'"

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:55 pm

The four suspects are:

  • Igor Girkin (alias Strelkov or Pervi), Russian nationality.
    Former colonel at the Russian intelligence agency. He was the minister of defence at the Donetsk Republic.
  • Sergej Doebinski (alias Chmoeri), Russian nationality.
    Former Russian intelligence officer. In juli 2014 he was the deputy of Girkin. He was also the lead over the Dontesk intelligence service. The news article is not exactly clear if that means he was part of the Donetsk Republic, or if he was in command of the Russian Federation intelligence services operating inside the Donetsk Republic.
  • Oleg Poelatov (alias Gjoerza), Russian nationality.
    Member of a special unit of the Russian military inteligence service. In juli 2014 he was acting deputy of the intelligence service of the Donetsk republic.
  • Leonid Chartsjenko (alias Krot), Ukrainian nationality.
    He commanded a fighting unit in the Donetsk republic. He was under Doebinski's command.
Attamottamotta!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:58 pm

Spar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Unfortunately, it is hard to maintain a serious discussion on this issue; Russia's trolls and paid agents-of-misdirection will be here with yet more distractions and denials in no time at all...

Speaking of the devil:

anrec80 wrote:
There are agreements between EU and Russia, and such things are being done regularly. But, of course, JIT will need to have the proof and win the case in the Russian court. But with what’s been presented so far - “social media” - I doubt it. Do they even have witnesses to anything?


and


anrec80 wrote:
There isn’t anything to question Ukraine for? Who led the civil plane into the war zone, knowing that other planes have been shot down there? Where’s the air traffic controller? Any recordings of conversations between ATC and MH-17?


Well - aren’t these the first questions to be answered - what was the civil plane doing in the war zone in the first place? How this became possible?
 
Spar
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:08 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Well - aren’t these the first questions to be answered - what was the civil plane doing in the war zone in the first place? How this became possible?

Russia has no shame.

I always thought that the cold war was misdirected, the enemy was Russia, not communism. We're seeing proof of that now. What a tragedy that Karl Marx's theories fell into the hands of such heavy handed thugs for their first and apparently defining implementation. Communism might have morphed into something good for humankind instead of into a totalitarian nightmare had it been picked up by a liberal society.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:16 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Well - aren’t these the first questions to be answered - what was the civil plane doing in the war zone in the first place? How this became possible?


It wouldn't have been a war zone if Russia kept to its borders, or hadn't handed over advanced weaponry to a bunch of retards.

Slice it any way you like, but Russia's complicity in the shootdown is absolute. Just deal with it and pay restitutions to the victims including Malaysia Airlines.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:20 pm

Spar wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Well - aren’t these the first questions to be answered - what was the civil plane doing in the war zone in the first place? How this became possible?

Russia has no shame.

I always thought that the cold war was misdirected, the enemy was Russia, not communism. We're seeing proof of that now. What a tragedy that Karl Marx's theories fell into the hands of such heavy handed thugs for their first and apparently defining implementation. Communism might have morphed into something good for humankind instead of into a totalitarian nightmare had it been picked up by a liberal society.


Was this post about Russia or communism at all? It was about holding those responsible accountable.

Safety of civil planes overflying a country’s airspace is the responsibility if that country. And the latter led the plane into the war zone. Shouldn’t that country and someone from that country be accountable for this? In my view - yes. This country successfully avoided their share of responsibility. And this county is on JIT, and JIT doesn’t seem to have any issues with this.

But it’s up to Dutch society to decide. Had I been Dutch, I would have been far from happy with such “investigation” - half-ass at best.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:30 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Well - aren’t these the first questions to be answered - what was the civil plane doing in the war zone in the first place? How this became possible?


It wouldn't have been a war zone if Russia kept to its borders, or hadn't handed over advanced weaponry to a bunch of retards.

Slice it any way you like, but Russia's complicity in the shootdown is absolute. Just deal with it and pay restitutions to the victims including Malaysia Airlines.


Is that what matters for the flight safety (and that particular flight)? What matters was that the war was there already and it obviously wasn’t safe to let the flight into the skies above there. Yet they did it (I firmly believe that they simply did not want to lose flyover fees).

Speaking of Russia involvement - what did JIT say? They have no evidence that acting Russian military personnel was involved. What Russia as the state has to do here? JIT isn’t even making any claims against Russia as the state.

And then - once the BUK is claimed to be Russian - can it even be given to someone without active involvement of Russian military? Someone has to provide a set of keys, open the hangar doors, arrange transportation maybe like 1500km - within Russian territory. And nobody has seen it there?
 
Spar
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:35 pm

anrec80 wrote:
And then - once the BUK is claimed to be Russian - can it even be given to someone without active involvement of Russian military? Someone has to provide a set of keys, open the hangar doors, arrange transportation maybe like 1500km - within Russian territory. And nobody has seen it there?

Yes it was seen, with the markings of the Russian 53rd air defense Brigade on it.
There are pictures.

But you know that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:46 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Yeah - followed this. All of this was known “in social media” by the fall 2014. It’s not clear what was this JIT doing for 5 years. Now they want to talk to those individuals and request Russia for assistance. That as well could have been done all the way back then. And another point just as important - what’s the actual missile story?

Somehow I am not optimistic about uncovering the actual truth.


How surprising from you, with your love for Putin's Russia. The JIT is doing a criminal investigating and that takes time. And the first half of the 5 years was covered by the investigation into the cause. (and in the meantime they had to deal with all the shit from Russia, had to investigate it and proof it was wrong or misleading).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:52 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Spar wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Well - aren’t these the first questions to be answered - what was the civil plane doing in the war zone in the first place? How this became possible?

Russia has no shame.

I always thought that the cold war was misdirected, the enemy was Russia, not communism. We're seeing proof of that now. What a tragedy that Karl Marx's theories fell into the hands of such heavy handed thugs for their first and apparently defining implementation. Communism might have morphed into something good for humankind instead of into a totalitarian nightmare had it been picked up by a liberal society.


Was this post about Russia or communism at all? It was about holding those responsible accountable.

Safety of civil planes overflying a country’s airspace is the responsibility if that country. And the latter led the plane into the war zone. Shouldn’t that country and someone from that country be accountable for this? In my view - yes. This country successfully avoided their share of responsibility. And this county is on JIT, and JIT doesn’t seem to have any issues with this.

But it’s up to Dutch society to decide. Had I been Dutch, I would have been far from happy with such “investigation” - half-ass at best.


If I were Russian, I would have put Putin in jail for all kinds of criminal behavior.

The independent Dutch judges will decide, so you can leave your air quotes away. All you are doing is misdirecting our attention away from Russia's part in this. Strange, you should have known by now that it is no use. Ah well......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:56 pm

Spar wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
And then - once the BUK is claimed to be Russian - can it even be given to someone without active involvement of Russian military? Someone has to provide a set of keys, open the hangar doors, arrange transportation maybe like 1500km - within Russian territory. And nobody has seen it there?

Yes it was seen, with the markings of the Russian 53rd air defense Brigade on it.
There are pictures.

But you know that.


Then where? Even JIT says they weren’t able to trace the route of it in Russia. All they alleged was a route to a point on Russian border. Apparently, primarily JIT was occupied with some black hole theory - can a black hole exist where there is one portal on a state border and the other - right in a military division.
 
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casinterest
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:00 pm

Russia won't care as long as they can continue to violate human rights in their illegally seized territories.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-imposed- ... 08149.html

Russia thought that they could scare Ukraine out of the fight if they brought down a military plane. Apparently they didn't think through their cunning plan and the storm it has created.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Spar
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:00 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
:stirthepot: At the risk of stirring the pot, the things anrec says seem to be of the same conspiratorial nature as the folks talking about iran not being responsible for the limpet mines on the tankers in the straight of hormuz. False flag operation? :stirthepot:

Pretty clear who the perpetrators are here. Doubt they ever get extradited or held accountable.

Why do you want to dilute the conversation about MH-17?

If you have opinions about who attacked the tankers in the gulf, you really should respond in that thread and leave this discussion to be about MH-17.
Any parallel you think you see between MH-17 and the tanker attacks is a huge stretch anyway.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The independent Dutch judges will decide, so you can leave your air quotes away.


Before a judge can decide whether or not there is anyone’s fault, someone needs to bring the case forward. But if Ukraine is on JIT - how can one bring the case forward against Ukraine? Not the team that has Ukraine on it, obviously.

Dutchy wrote:
All you are doing is misdirecting our attention away from Russia's part in this. Strange, you should have known by now that it is no use. Ah well......


Where’s this “Russian part” then? What JIT said about this “Russian part”? “There is no evidence of involvement by active Russian military personnel”. All accused individuals weren’t even in Russia on that day.
 
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dutch prosecutors are to identify suspects and file the first criminal charges over the 2014 downing of flight MH17 over east Ukraine which killed 298 people in the worst atrocity in five years of war between Ukraine and Russia-backed separatists.

The charges are likely to target members of a Russia-backed separatist movement and may include Russian service personnel who commanded or helped transport the anti-aircraft missile system used to bring down the plane.


Source

NIEUWEGEIN - The Public Prosecution Service is going to prosecute four people for taking down flight MH17. They are suspected of murder. The process must begin on March 9 next year. The suspects are three Russians and one Ukrainian. They are rebel leader Igor Girkin, his right-hand man Sergey Dubinsky, his assistant Oleg Poelatov and garrison commander Leonid Chartsjenko.


Source in Dutch

So we're seeing some progress being made. And good that the case against the first four is brought forward and will be going to trail (by abstinence probably).

I would like to stay this thread on track, so there is no reason to doubt the conclusions of the JIT, that is up to the independent Dutch judge. Russia killed the idea of the international court, so we don't need to discuss that anymore. What is there is that there is a clear link between the shooting down of the MH17 and Russia, 3 Russians and on Ukrainian national will be put on trial and the BUK has been identified as a Russian military one.


That is the topic to be discussed in this thread, there is no need to start this all over again, so please stay on topic.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:36 pm

Spar wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
And then - once the BUK is claimed to be Russian - can it even be given to someone without active involvement of Russian military? Someone has to provide a set of keys, open the hangar doors, arrange transportation maybe like 1500km - within Russian territory. And nobody has seen it there?

Yes it was seen, with the markings of the Russian 53rd air defense Brigade on it.
There are pictures.

But you know that.


And there are orders, from the 53rd, there are photos and movies of ordinary Russians posted on social media, there are telephone calls requesting the BUK, Russian news confirming the shootdown of a Ukraine aircraft by the rebels (never heard of it again as soon as it became clear it was an airliner with 298 people murdered) etc. etc. etc. And this is what we know publicly, quite useless to defend Russia in this case, nevertheless the Putin diehard Fanclub - I am not saying they are paid trolls - will defend Putin's government regardless.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And there are orders, from the 53rd,


Orders from whom? To do what? To shoot down a civil airliner? There were no mentions of such orders. And not from Russian military, as per JIT.

Dutchy wrote:
there are photos and movies of ordinary Russians posted on social media, there are telephone calls requesting the BUK,


This is what I am taking about - this whole case is built on some social media posts. As we all know - these places are full of all kinds of people doing all sorts of stuff for every possible reason. We never heard an answer to the next obvious question - what, if anything, has JIT done to verify authenticity and accuracy of those posts?

These posts certainly could have been fabricated by those truly responsible to avoid responsibility and lead JIT the wrong way. And IMHO JIT was totally happy to be led the wrong way.

Dutchy wrote:
Russian news confirming the shootdown of a Ukraine aircraft by the rebels (never heard of it again as soon as it became clear it was an airliner with 298 people murdered) etc. etc. etc.


News are news - they are in business of sensations, and it isn’t uncommon for them to push into the air bits of unverified information early on.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And there are orders, from the 53rd,


Orders from whom? To do what? To shoot down a civil airliner? There were no mentions of such orders. And not from Russian military, as per JIT.

Dutchy wrote:
there are photos and movies of ordinary Russians posted on social media, there are telephone calls requesting the BUK,


This is what I am taking about - this whole case is built on some social media posts. As we all know - these places are full of all kinds of people doing all sorts of stuff for every possible reason. We never heard an answer to the next obvious question - what, if anything, has JIT done to verify authenticity and accuracy of those posts?

These posts certainly could have been fabricated by those truly responsible to avoid responsibility and lead JIT the wrong way. And IMHO JIT was totally happy to be led the wrong way.

Dutchy wrote:
Russian news confirming the shootdown of a Ukraine aircraft by the rebels (never heard of it again as soon as it became clear it was an airliner with 298 people murdered) etc. etc. etc.


News are news - they are in business of sensations, and it isn’t uncommon for them to push into the air bits of unverified information early on.


1. you seem to know all the evidence the JIT has
2. you seem to be able to correctly weigh the evidence
3. you seem to know the inner workings of Ukraine secret service (presumably you think they are responsible)

Occam's razor tells me you know nothing of these things, but you want to defend Russia on this forum, evidence, all Russian threads and 100% Russian point of view. Anyhow, done with feeding the troll. This is far to serious to discuss it with a non-serious person. Everyone knows what you are anyhow.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:

They will be trailed by abstance, If convicted their movement will be restricted and perhaps if Putin's junta is gone they might be extradited, who knows. Anyhow, it is important that this trail is held, regardless. It will be held for an independent judge and the JIT has to prove its case.


I wouldn’t count on extradition - nobody will break the country’s Constitution.

Dutchy wrote:
The defendants are more than welcome to defend themselves or more probably, they will seek counsel from a Dutch lawyer to defend them in court, or in this case, it would be nice of Putin to foot the bill since they are ultimately responsible.


Latest news from one of the suspects - Igor Strelkov - already said that he is not commenting anything and is not going to any kind of court.

And one more bit here. These individuals are already under EU sanctions, and they can’t show up to the court even if they could. And even if some of them decide to get Dutch attorneys - they may not be able to do so for the same reasons. Hence our suspects are severely limited in their defense, and this will be hard to call an honest competitive trial.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:23 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Latest news from one of the suspects - Igor Strelkov - already said that he is not commenting anything and is not going to any kind of court.

And one more bit here. These individuals are already under EU sanctions, and they can’t show up to the court even if they could. And even if some of them decide to get Dutch attorneys - they may not be able to do so for the same reasons. Hence our suspects are severely limited in their defense, and this will be hard to call an honest competitive trial.


Not going to comment on this, the fairness of the Dutch legal system is beyond doubt, but the highlighted OUR says it all........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:10 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They will be trailed by abstance, If convicted their movement will be restricted and perhaps if Putin's junta is gone they might be extradited, who knows.


I wouldn’t count on extradition - nobody will break the country’s Constitution.

Of course not. But giving childish rebels weapons with which they were able to shoot down commercial airliners was not an issue.. great.
 
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:44 pm

casinterest wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Of course not. But giving childish rebels weapons with which they were able to shoot down commercial airliners was not an issue.. great.


Well - per JIT, Russian military isn’t involved. All JIT has on that BUK is 1-2 low quality doubtful videos. Based primarily on those they developed a “black hole theory” and investigated based on that.

Missile is shown and documented to be Ukrainian. JIT during these 5 years hasn’t even presented their version of what happened on the ground that day even. Who gave whom what is unclear. But my belief is that BUKs were given to some Ukrainian monkeys who had no clue what they were doing.


And yet Russia was in the eastern Ukraine fighting a war, and stealing land. Seems to me the Russians screwed up, and can't take any blame for their bad plays.


So Anrec, what’ your source of the missile being Ukrainian? And interesting that you move from presenting a ‘fact’ to a ‘belief’ in one sentence…
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:59 pm

Here are also Malaysian statements - they also are questioning Russian involvement.
https://nltimes.nl/2019/05/31/malaysian ... xplanation

And Malaysia isn’t exactly friend of Russia, and is the party just as interested in the final truth.
 
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casinterest
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:17 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Here are also Malaysian statements - they also are questioning Russian involvement.
https://nltimes.nl/2019/05/31/malaysian ... xplanation

And Malaysia isn’t exactly friend of Russia, and is the party just as interested in the final truth.



Wow, yet no explanation of how the Russian 53rd Brigade got inside of Eastern Ukraine. What were they doing? Beer drinking?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:45 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Here are also Malaysian statements - they also are questioning Russian involvement.
https://nltimes.nl/2019/05/31/malaysian ... xplanation

And Malaysia isn’t exactly friend of Russia, and is the party just as interested in the final truth.


Apparently, it is allowed to do this kind of misdirection here, so we need to delve into this, too bad because you do not deserve my time, but there it is.

Speaking to news agency Bernama, Mohammad said that he supports the conclusions of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) up to the point in the investigation that showed that the rocket that shot down the Malaysian Airlines plane was of Russian origin. He has doubts about whether it was Russia who fired the projectile. "I do not think that such a disciplined party is responsible for launching the rocket", Mohammad said.


Important to note, and you omitted to mention, Malasia is part of the JIT, so the PM let his own justice department down.

“You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians, it could be by the rebels in Ukraine, it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile.”


So rebels in Ukraine, whom others then the Russian gave them this missile?

Shamefully, but true, the source himself:

Dr Mahathir is known to enjoy a good conspiracy theory and it’s not the first time his opinions have raised eyebrows.


and

Last year he speculated Malaysia Airlines flight 370 — which vanished three months before MH17 was shot down and has never been found — was taken over remotely to foil a hijacking.


But men, whatever keeps your boat afloat.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
Somehow I am not optimistic about uncovering the actual truth.


You are conspicuously unhappy about the actual truth.


anrec80 wrote:
They have no evidence that acting Russian military personnel was involved. What Russia as the state has to do here? JIT isn’t even making any claims against Russia as the state.


Must not have been any "active milirtary personnel"; someone from the Russian irregulars just hot-wired the BUK operation and took it into Ukraine on a joy-ride... right?


anrec80 wrote:
All accused individuals weren’t even in Russia on that day.


That we can agree to; LiliPutin's little band of merry men were in Ukraine, shooting down an airliner on their relaxing, happy vacation time.


anrec80 wrote:
And then - once the BUK is claimed to be Russian - can it even be given to someone without active involvement of Russian military? Someone has to provide a set of keys, open the hangar doors, arrange transportation maybe like 1500km - within Russian territory. And nobody has seen it there?


You nailed that! It definitely would take the "active involvement of Russian military" to take a BUK from Russia into Ukraine - unless you expect us to buy into that joy-ride scenario. And nobody buys into that claim.


anrec80 wrote:
This is what I am taking about - this whole case is built on some social media posts. As we all know - these places are full of all kinds of people doing all sorts of stuff for every possible reason.


Yep, like those Russian soldiers who posted photos of themselves inside Ukraine, while the LiliPutin propaganda machine was claiming there were no Russian soldiers in Ukraine. Pesky things, those social media posts.


Dutchy wrote:
And this is what we know publicly, quite useless to defend Russia in this case, nevertheless the Putin diehard Fanclub - I am not saying they are paid trolls - will defend Putin's government regardless.


Okay, you don't have to say it; I will say it. They are paid trolls!

And they are infesting the internet... even A.net...

:cry:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12080
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Spar wrote:
Russia has no shame.

I always thought that the cold war was misdirected, the enemy was Russia, not communism. We're seeing proof of that now. What a tragedy that Karl Marx's theories fell into the hands of such heavy handed thugs for their first and apparently defining implementation. Communism might have morphed into something good for humankind instead of into a totalitarian nightmare had it been picked up by a liberal society.


Was this post about Russia or communism at all? It was about holding those responsible accountable.

Safety of civil planes overflying a country’s airspace is the responsibility if that country. And the latter led the plane into the war zone. Shouldn’t that country and someone from that country be accountable for this? In my view - yes. This country successfully avoided their share of responsibility. And this county is on JIT, and JIT doesn’t seem to have any issues with this.

But it’s up to Dutch society to decide. Had I been Dutch, I would have been far from happy with such “investigation” - half-ass at best.


If I were Russian, I would have put Putin in jail for all kinds of criminal behavior.

The independent Dutch judges will decide, so you can leave your air quotes away. All you are doing is misdirecting our attention away from Russia's part in this. Strange, you should have known by now that it is no use. Ah well......


Just a quick question how are the Dutch judges independent? There were Dutch nationals onboard, there’s a bias right there. If you really wanted independent judges this shouldn’t be tried in the netherlands it should be somewhere like Australia or New Zealand where nobody has a stake in the outcome.
Last edited by Kiwirob on Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:17 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Just a quick question how are the Dutch judges independent? There were scutch nationals onboard, there’s a bias right there. If you really wanted independent judges this shouldn’t be tried in Athens netherlands it should be somewhere like Australia or New Zealand where nobody has a stake in the outcome.


Because judges in the Netherlands have not to deal with political influence and easily rule against the government as has been seen many times? Because of independent scrutiny of the justice system shows this: [url=http://data.worldjusticeproject.org/]5th in the world overall[/ur]. So given this, why wouldn't they independent. And BTW Putin's Russia blocked the proposed international tribunal, so that isn't a solution.
Why do you ask this? Why do you want to cast doubt on the proceedings? I know you have pro-Russian views and side with Putin's regime many times, but still.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:27 am

They won’t be independent because 193 Dutch people died. It’s like asking an Israeli court to convict Nazis, it’s never going to be a fair trial, neither will this.

I’ll recluse Australian and NZ because citizens from both counties were also killed.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:38 am

Kiwirob wrote:
They won’t be independent because 193 Dutch people died. It’s like asking an Israeli court to convict Nazis, it’s never going to be a fair trial, neither will this.

I’ll recluse Australian and NZ because citizens from both counties were also killed.


So your argument is, that no Dutch judge can ever convict a murder on a Dutch citizen? So every murder in The Netherlands should be trailed in Belgium? Do you see the ridiculousness of your argument? So again, what is your reason to bring this up?
But there we go, Godwin's law is still in effect. But like I said, Putin blocked an international tribunal and no other country has jurisdiction so the trail will be held in the Netherlands and will be a fair trial, and because Russia's troll factory will do anything to bring the outcome in discrete, judges will be very careful to uphold the law.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:18 am

anrec80 wrote:
Here are also Malaysian statements - they also are questioning Russian involvement.
https://nltimes.nl/2019/05/31/malaysian ... xplanation

And Malaysia isn’t exactly friend of Russia, and is the party just as interested in the final truth.


The new PM is a well known anti-West proponent who have for years spouted anti-West propaganda & conspiracy theories before shamelessly grovelling back to the West whenever he needs help. His statements are to be taken with a pinch of salt - and I say this as a Malaysian (who didn't vote for him).

To say that Malaysia isn't exactly friend of Russia under the new Malaysian government (yeah, just so you know, the current Malaysian government isn't the same Malaysian government in 2014, back when MH17 was shot down) is simply inaccurate.
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tommy1808
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:56 am

zkojq wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

Please don't feed the troll. You know he/she/it will provide multiple preposterous Russian excuses/misstatements/outright lies about the tragedy...

:roll:


Them... remember, two of them messed up replying to the same post at the same time, from the same script with different words. Edited one of the posts, lied about what he/she changed....

Best regards
Thomas


:rotfl: Which was the other user?


No "other" user, the same username twice ...
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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mad99
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:57 am

Tragic mistake. I don’t see how they can prove anything unless someone confesses or a whistle blower steps up.
 
tommy1808
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:08 am

mad99 wrote:
Tragic mistake. I don’t see how they can prove anything unless someone confesses or a whistle blower steps up.


A misstake would still come under manslaughter...

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:20 am

tommy1808 wrote:
mad99 wrote:
Tragic mistake. I don’t see how they can prove anything unless someone confesses or a whistle blower steps up.


A misstake would still come under manslaughter...

Best regards
Thomas


Apparently, under Dutch law it is still murder, if you shoot an innocent person by mistake whom looks like your victim, it is still murder, even though you didn't intend to shoot this individual. The intent was murder and that's what counts. Using these kinds of weapons the bar is raised to identify the target, should be a professional using it and the means are there if you don't do this, you are willing to the chance of shooting down an airliner and that is the same as murder. We will see if a judge will follow this line of reasoning or not.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:24 am

mad99 wrote:
Tragic mistake. I don’t see how they can prove anything unless someone confesses or a whistle blower steps up.


They feel there is sufficient evidence to draw up these charges. I do think they weight the evidence very carefully before they drew up these charges. Don't think the OM would like to see an acquittal on this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:59 am

I'm officially pissed off with my asinine Prime Minister right now.

http://www.bernama.com/en/general/news.php?id=1737340
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alfa164
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:10 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Just a quick question how are the Dutch judges independent? There were Dutch nationals onboard, there’s a bias right there. If you really wanted independent judges this shouldn’t be tried in the netherlands it should be somewhere like Australia or New Zealand where nobody has a stake in the outcome.


Legally, the term for your question is "looney". The fact that Dutch citizens were onboard only means the Court has a vested interest in finding the truth; it does not indicate any "bias" towards any person, country, or entity accused of the crime. It is in the interest of the Court to prosecute any and all of the actual guilty parties and, in the case, the evidence clearly led them to the parties named in the indictments.


Kiwirob wrote:
They won’t be independent because 193 Dutch people died. It’s like asking an Israeli court to convict Nazis, it’s never going to be a fair trial, neither will this. I’ll recluse Australian and NZ because citizens from both counties were also killed.


It might be "like asking an Israeli court to convict Nazis", if those Nazis have committed a crime falling under that Court's jurisdiction. The Court of Jurisdiction in every case is in the realm of the aggrieved party(ies). Additionally, there should be nothing to prevent Courts in New Zealand, Malaysia, or any other country whose citizens were killed from pursuing their own causes of action, should the decide to do so, and unless they agreed to allow the Durch Court to have exclusive jurisdiction in the case.

Try not to practice law without a license.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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mad99
Posts: 1171
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:35 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48702115

Malaysian PM says the charges are groundless and they are on the JIT
Interesting

It’ll be interesting to see what the evidence is and how they got it.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8512
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:39 pm

mad99 wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48702115

Malaysian PM says the charges are groundless and they are on the JIT
Interesting

It’ll be interesting to see what the evidence is and how they got it.



Anyone check how much money Russia is donating to the Malaysian PM?

http://www.mida.gov.my/home/7577/news/m ... ral-trade/

Just sayin,,,,,,,
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
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Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
They feel there is sufficient evidence to draw up these charges. I do think they weight the evidence very carefully before they drew up these charges. Don't think the OM would like to see an acquittal on this.


They have to feel this way at some point. First - there is public pressure on them to get something to the court. Second - investigators are all humans and want to continue their careers in Netherlands and EU institutions.

Please note that Russia was accused in this even before the plane debris and victims' bodies hit the ground. Now there is that "western solidarity" in play - they just can't turn away from this path. Hence we see all sorts of low quality and likely outright forged evidence to support their case. They obviously count in absentee trial - this way there won't be anyone to question the evidence. But absentee trials can also end like Mueller's investigation. Remember - he also counted on this, and his case just fell apart as soon as defendant's lawyer showed up and said "ok, let's see what proof do you have". So it's not quite the same as real trial.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1811
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: prosecutors to identify suspects and file first charges

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:46 pm

casinterest wrote:
Anyone check how much money Russia is donating to the Malaysian PM?

http://www.mida.gov.my/home/7577/news/m ... ral-trade/

Just sayin,,,,,,,


This is just a trade related article, not donations related or anything. Malaysia isn’t that close with Russia - their leaders meet no more frequently than maybe every 3-4 years. Talk about boosting trade - these are normal and are being held by every country here and there.

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